Using an eagle prince

[Ptolemy]

Hey all,

Im looking ar trying out some of the lesser used options we have.

To that end, im wondering if anyone has made use of a prince on eagle.

If so, how did you kit it out and what jobs did you assign it?

If not, how would you use it?

Thanks all?

[Malossar]

The eagle prince is more of a support unit wig a wide threat radius. He's not a supreme killer like the star dragon lord, but he's cheap enough to still bring in the archmage which is crucial in my mind. Combine it with the cheap protection (compared to other books) he canaletto a huge impact on the game. Also worth mentioning is his size allows him to benefit from cover and hiding behind buildings when facing gunlines. Chechen out jwg20 blog and if your still not satisfied with eagle prince action you can read mine. I us an even more unconverional lore in beasts. I gotta GT back to work I'll post a more in depth analysis when I get home late.

[Marwynn]

My friends named my Eagle Prince "General Jerk" as no job is too small for him. In a test game on sunday night, I'm going for a GE flying circus list, I gave him the Lore of Death and he sniped at close range. Killed many good Empire Warrior Priests and the like and alternatively smashed into warmachines.

Kit was RGoH and VoD, Dragon Armour, Shield, and GW. His main job really was to be there for the Ld bubble for my Nobles on GEs and the cavalry.

[Malossar]

Or lunch break works just fine!

Ptolemy! Great to see another member of the cult of phoenix guard looking into the eagle prince! He's a beast.

How i equip mine:

Prince - eagle, Great Weapon, Armor of Caledor, Vambrances of Defense, The Other Tricksters Shard


He comes in at 307pts. I can still take an archmage with the silver wand and a 4+ ward or forlaith's robe. This is the Eagle princ'es greatest strength in my opinion. I can still dominate the magic phase.

The uses of the Eagle Prince vary. He can be a terrible speed bump/redirector. He can also tarpit small super killy units. With a 2+ rerollable followed by a 4+ ward i have no qualms sticking him into blocks of Ogre Bulls, monsters and those demmed Chaos warriors. He can hide in challenges, or when using lore of beasts, with savage beast of horros, he becomes a truly terrifying monster in CC. With 7 attacks rerolled at STR 9... oh and also, please reroll your ward saves, k thx. Hahaha. My prince, (nerd moment!) Malossar, has been decorated as the single most annoying/terrifying unit on the table! Followed by my Phoenix Guard block of course.

I then opted to bring in the Lore of Light on my back up caster. Its been met with some debate whether or not the Seerstaff was worth it when i also wanted the signature spell... but Pha's is just too damn good to resist. When bubbled, since the Prince is staying within 12" anyway for Beasts buffs,

GAH i swear i'll finish this soon!

[Ptolemy]

Hey there Cal,

I'm looking to make him into something of a flank sweeper, monster hunter. I feel like his WS 7, str 6 and very solid armor make him able to grind against even Str 6 monsters, who will all almost universally struggle to hit him and even when they do, a 5+, 5+, 4+ is hardly terrible.

My biggest current issue is that I can't fit a 15 pt enchanted item in with AoC and VoD because I end up over the 625pt in Lords cap. I view a dispel scroll as indispensable and I refuse to remove Folariath's robe from my Archmage.

So...if I don't have the Other Tricktster's Shard or the like, I'll have to settle for a 5 point item. Potion of foolhardiness works for the extra attack on the charge, so I'm going there. Thoughts?


If I take an eagle prince at all, I see moving my BSB over to the Phoenix Guard who will need his added punch while the white lions are then left to their rather pedestrian LD 8 (which I do not trust). This will more or less force me to run the PG and WLs near enough to benefit from the bsb reroll.

Have you found any of the above issues (or ones I haven't considered) to be problematic?

[Paricidas]

God made flyers.
Nulln made them equal.

[Curu Olannon]

I think the idea is sound Ptolemy, indeed this is one of the many roles jwg and thelordcal have shown us he can perform. If you have to settle for a 5 point item I think the foolhardiness potion is the best, indeed. Are you using the same context (PG + Lions) around him? By the way, was this move somewhat related to your K'daii experience? I see the Eagle Prince as a pretty hard counter to that one

[Malossar]

Finally a chance to post again!

Don't just resign him/yourself to using him strictly as a flanker/monster hunter. He's capable of so much more! One of the biggest benefits of the prince is using his LD 10. so keeping him close to the battleline is never a bad idea. He's also great at hunting artillery or tieing up dedicated combat units if they're small enough.

If you're hell bent on taking the D. Scroll then the potion of foolhardiness is the way to go.

Perhaps now would be a good time to ask you to post your potential list. That way we can help examine the possible role you have designated him for and help balance around your list.

My list for reference:

Lord (as above)
ArchMage w. Annulain Opal Amulet - Beasts
Mage w. Seerstaff - Pha's Shem's/Banishment - still debating
BSB - Silvered steel

35x Spears
12x archers w. Musc
13x Archers w. Musc

17x Lions with flaming Banner
19x phoenix Guard w. AoL and Banner of Sorcery
5x Swords
5x Swords

2x Eagles.

Lots of redirectors to keep the blocks rolling. I opted for pha's to mainly keep my Lord alive longer. I'm considering combining the swords into one unit and dropping a few to make room for my BSB to ride an eagle!

[Ptolemy]

I hope to use him in alot of those roles mentioned.

@curu- to some extent, yes. Its things like the kdaii or the terrorgheist that i see ad his role. In a test against vamps he flank charged a unit of crypt horrors solo and wiped them out.

My list as i see it would look like:

Prince(eagle, gw, aoc, vod, pot of fools)
Archmage(level 4, robes, dispel scroll)
Noble(bsb,gw,armor of silvered steel)

Spears x 29 fc
Archersx 18 w mus and std
Archers x 10

Phoenix guard x 20 w fc, razor standard and gem of courage.
White lions x 21 w fc, banner of sorcery
5x dragon princes

3x eagles

[Curu Olannon]

Yeah that's mostly the same indeed. I think the Eagle Prince can be an excellent addition here since it gives the list so many options and so much flexibility for relatively little loss of utility. I think that mobility can work very well along with your rather static blocks, especially when you need chaff-heavy armies etc.

One question though - what do you do against Ethereal spam? Is there an AoL in there somewhere?

[SpellArcher]

You'd be losing the Radiant Gem Ptolemy.

Are you happy sticking with Shadow after that or is it worth considering a different Lore?

[Paricidas]

In a test game, my tiranoc charriot flanked a unit of crypt horrors and whiped them out.

Not enough serious attacks to deal with monsters.
Not enough wounds to deal with ranged damage.
Enough points to let you lose a game.

Honestly, I do not think that there are so many tasks that a BSB on an eagle could not fullfill as well as a prince.

[Curu Olannon]

In a test game, my tiranoc charriot flanked a unit of crypt horrors and whiped them out.

Not enough serious attacks to deal with monsters.
Not enough wounds to deal with ranged damage.
Enough points to let you lose a game.

Honestly, I do not think that there are so many tasks that a BSB on an eagle could not fullfill as well as a prince.

The BSB is more vital to have in a central position than a Prince. As such, his movements would be constrained which isn't a good thing for a mobile element with this army. Mounting the BSB on an Eagle means he cannot both achieve a decent save and S6. While Helm of Fortune is nice, you're no-where near AoC/VoD defensively. If you even want a 2+ armour save, the best you get offensively is S5.

The Prince can engage monsters, tarpit units and take on semi-strong hammers on his own. The BSB can do none of these things.

[Paricidas]

Indeed, a BSB in a central position is more important than a general, in an army where every Joe and his mum have at least ld8.

Tarpitting: Ok, with ld10 he will be able to do that. Tarpit a unit of slaves and it was the last thing your general has done in that game.
engage monsters: if by "monsters" you mean giants, ok. Anything else: debatable. Anything worth being called a monster: good bye general
take on semi-strong hammers: Your definition of semi strong seems to differ from mine. Even 20 BoH-life-mages will not be able to resurrect what is left from a prince after engaging such a unit.

Now I throw in armor ignore, str 10 cannon shots, killing blow and armor piercing, and the rerollable AS from the chicken prince becomes not that attractive to me.

I have no doubt that a player like Ptolemy can make this guy work, but hey, Jet Lee can kill you with an empty bag of orange seeds, but that does not make orange seeds lethal all over the board.

[Curu Olannon]

The thing with the Prince is that he can get both a good defense (2+ reroll and 4+ ward) while the BSB has to settle for something worse, regardless of what you want. So, do you go for S6 and 3+ re-rollable or 2+ rerollable and S5 or less? Either way, he's suboptimally kitted out.

Things I'd happily throw the Prince against which I think the BSB should not engage:
- Chaos Dwarf elite infantry
- Saurus blocks, arguably TG as well
- Stegadons
- Hydras, Black Guard
- Swordmasters
- Greatswords
- Ogre Bulls
The list goes on.

Some LD math: LD8 with re-roll is better than LD10 plain. PG, DP and AM are all LD9, which makes re-rolls way better.

Of course the BSB + Prince can perform a LOT of the same duties, such as tarpitting S3 stuff, clearing chaff, hunt war machines etc, however having read jwg's and thelordcal's reports I'm confident that in this list, the Prince is a vastly better choice for the job.

[Paricidas]

I can understand the 4+ ward. I can not understand the believe in a 2+rerollable AS.
Basing the survival of my general on a 4+ ward is just not my cup of tea, if its yours, well give it a try.

[Ptolemy]

Ill admit that my primary motivation in exploring this option is that i have a cool idea for a model.

The cannonball problem is my primary concern, obviously. I like the concept of the eagle prince but dont reliah the idea of him getting blown to bits turn 1. Im going to run him against empire tomorrow. Ill report back.

Curu- i have to disagree with some of your list. As i see the prince vs monsters, he does 2 wounds or so and a charge for a cr of 3. If the prince can win combat by that much, he will break most monsters. A stubborn steg is not where i want him.

[Marwynn]

Once, it was mandatory to have two Great Cannon in every Empire list. Now, not so much, at least around my area. I'm more worried about the Helblaster making popcorn chicken out of my Eagle Prince. I'd love to read a full report, or even a summary.

[Paricidas]

The new Stank cannon shoots like an imperial cannon, so I think you are still up against two of them.

[Malossar]

The new Stank cannon shoots like an imperial cannon, so I think you are still up against two of them.

Man you're just being a Negative Nancy this evening

In my experience the 2+ rerollable is invaluable. If i could ever roll higher than a 3 that 4+ ward might be in higher favor!

[Prince of Spires]

Some LD math: LD8 with re-roll is better than LD10 plain. PG, DP and AM are all LD9, which makes re-rolls way better.

While strickly speaking this is true, the difference between the two is so small as to make no difference. Chance of succes for ld 8 reroll = 92.3%, ld 10 no reroll = 91.7%. So in only 6 out of every 1000 rolls will the reroll actually matter. Also note that LD 9 plain is slightly better then LD 7 with a reroll (83.3% vs 82.6%). So if you are starting to lose combat, having the princes LD is better then the BSB reroll.

I would argue that there is no noticable difference between having a BSB central to your army or a Prince. The only exception is if you have a lot of LD 9 running around. LD 9 reroll is a lot better then LD 10 (as a rough guide, by about 5 - 10% depending on if you lose combat or not and by how much). But if you only have an AM centrally, no PG and your DPs out on a flank, then that is 1 unit that benefits.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

Re-rolls make for less variance as there are more rolls made, which is an important factor. If your units (WL or PG) start losing, you're likely doing something wrong (and the former is stubborn anyway).

[Ptolemy]

Well, i tried out the list against a savvy empire player tonight.

It went well overall. I managed to use an impassible piece turn 1 to keep him from getting cannoballed. I played it patient until turn3, when i was easily able to position him in such a way that any legal cannonshot would have hit an empire unit. By turn 5 he joined a large mulit combat, challenged and killed an empire general and ran sown rhe fleeing unit.

Overall, i was pleased with the result and found it a nice tool. Im going to run it again in a three game tournament next weekend and see how it works.

Given the list above , what lores would you all recommend. Spellarcher mentioned me being down to one lore. Im curious what others would use.

[Marwynn]

Good to hear your feathered friend didn't disappoint.

For some reason, I see "Light" when I look at that list. High Magic seems like the safest choice but I think Light or Shadow can let you push the list.

[Paricidas]

It went well overall. I managed to use an impassible piece turn 1 to keep him from getting cannoballed. I played it patient until turn3, when i was easily able to position him in such a way that any legal cannonshot would have hit an empire unit. By turn 5 he joined a large mulit combat, challenged and killed an empire general and ran sown rhe fleeing unit.

Given the list above , what lores would you all recommend. Spellarcher mentioned me being down to one lore. Im curious what others would use.

a. From the reading I would suggest that the prince would have been better off on food in the PGs, but that is just pure guessing. But imho even survivng a game against Empire is a sucess for this dude.
b. Too me, this list also screams light, but I dont know why. Maybe because of Phas protection?
c. I would give shadow a try. Flying characters, the lore attribute and steed of shadow can be a nasty surprise and most people I play are not used to those "Beam me up Scotty"-lists. At least it would be something unusual compared to the typical shadow-cheese that would also work well for the army.
d. High magic: Imho one of high magics most impressive features is that it gives out 5+ wardsaves and additional spells for free. The army is already drowning in 4+ wards, but I am always pleased with the perfomance of large units of 5+ wardsave lions. I just do not see how the eagle prince would benefit greatly from the lore.

[Bounce]

If you can avoid the shooting it can be quite good I think.
I faced a noble on eagle and a BSB on eagle with my own high elves at my last tournaments. I shot the BSB dead turn 1 and the General turn 2.
However against some armies I think they can be very handy. I know I played quite a bit with Dark Elf Masters on Dark Pegasi in 7th ed it's all about understanding what they can accomplish and what is beyond them.

[Ptolemy]

a. From the reading I would suggest that the prince would have been better off on food in the PGs, but that is just pure guessing. But imho even survivng a game against Empire is a sucess for this dude.

Normally this is what my list does exactly. The PG were just as effective as before, with the BSB taking the place of the Prince. The WLs were without LD9, which I don't prefer, but such is life.

b. Too me, this list also screams light, but I dont know why. Maybe because of Phas protection?

or some reason, I see "Light" when I look at that list. High Magic seems like the safest choice but I think Light or Shadow can let you push the list.

I have run Shadow with this army for over two years now. I find it ideal for High Elves who rely on infantry for victory. Using it to give the Prince an extra 20' move via a simple spell would be awesome.

Light did strike me as the next most logical choice. My major concern is its lack of range. Also, the Withering/Archer combo has been aces for me in so many games its hard to walk away.

d. High magic: Imho one of high magics most impressive features is that it gives out 5+ wardsaves and additional spells for free. The army is already drowning in 4+ wards, but I am always pleased with the perfomance of large units of 5+ wardsave lions. I just do not see how the eagle prince would benefit greatly from the lore.

Yup. Last year this was my RGoH lore. A free spell (more useful than people realize) and Shield were very good utilitarian choices.

[Ptolemy]

Well...tournament is tomorrow and I'm rolling out the Eagle Prince to see what he can do.

For what its worth...I'm very pleased with the model I came up with to represent him



I'll report back tomorrow with some batreps and results. I'm thinking it all boils down to match ups. If I face a chunk of Empire, Skaven and Ogres...I'm in trouble. Everything else, I feel like I'll be okay.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Good luck Ptolemy, and have fun. Take some notes for us please.

[cptcosmic]

I prefer having nobles on eagle over the prince. the noble is weaker of course but the eagle gives him an additional wound. the prince gains mobility only and I prefer having the prince in the frontlines instead of playing safe. this is not possible with an eagle against armies with powerful warmachines or magic.