The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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NHB
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1801 Post by NHB »

Nice catch csjarrat / Morgen...

It would be funny to see some of the most graceful creatures to bless the old world with their footsteps to stupidly shuffle forward 5 inches.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1802 Post by Seredain »

Tethlis wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:50 pm Late to the party. The list logic tracks. In particular, I think this is the first list I've seen that leverages our Honors in a way that does more than unlock the ability to take a mount or join a unit. Interesting stuff. I'm still very wary of Impetuous and the traps that someone could set, primarily by blocking the movement of the Cavalry Bus with a cheap unit, and baiting that charge to set up counter charges. But unit itself should hold up okay even if it doesn't get the charge, and the probability of straight Breaking on a Ld10 rerollable with high, durable Unit Strength is pretty unlikely.

Walk Between Worlds is just a wild spell. I tried it over the weekend, and even not commiting it to a dedicated combat unit, it's ability to frustrate and annoy and opponent is immense. It's well worth investing around.

I think the durable Lord and your read on challenges is accurate. My list over the weekend has a Lord with 2+/5++, who still barely survived a single round with a challenge-oriented Dwarf King, doing zero damage (Dwarven fighting characters and their units Hate enemy characters this edition, watch out.) A good cautionary tail. The obvious choice from that outcome, as you imply is to just mount him up on a monster and get durability that way. But I'm also interested in seeing what the game has to offer besides Star Dragon, Go!

Keep us posted if you get a chance to play. I'd also like 2500 to be the norm, not just because I've been playing that size for years outside TOW, but I agree that it offsets the fact that 6th was basically the least big block friend edition of the game, and TOW is largely the spiritual successor to that. Many solid TOW armies won't look or feel like regimental armies, and 2500 does help offset that phenomenon.
Tehtlis thanks for the great comments. Typically thoughtful. I'm still at zero games so what you say is reassuring.

I feel Impetuous is something you have to lean into to make work. The Caledorian equivalent of "go hard or go home". This is why I like the potential to use ranks aggressively and particularly the Lion Chariots for facing down units which might bog me down. Counter-charge doesn't work against infantry so a couple of chariots to clear them out might prove necessary instead of just desirable. With the high leadership, re-rolls and the reduced number of circumstances in which units break from combat, I feel like we have a structurally higher % chance in Old World of getting our chariots into that combat whilst the knights still stand, as compared with 8th Ed.

The Star Dragon. He looms over us. But with Sword of Dragon Slaying a common item, not to mention the Chaos and Black Dragons which I suspect can just out-alpha him, he might have meta problems. My latest reading of the rules in non-blurry print is that characters categorically cannot be thunderstomped whilst in a unit of 5+ rank and file (though it is not yet clear to me if champions count as RnF or not). Which if so makes the Star Dragon much, much worse against a defensive cavalry prince than I previously thought. (If I'm wrong here then someone tell me before I get too excited!)

Right now I'm in the middle of Seaguard & Sister Purgatory but hopefully the games come in the not too distant future!

Cheers,

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1803 Post by Seredain »

NHB wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:25 am Nice catch csjarrat / Morgen...

It would be funny to see some of the most graceful creatures to bless the old world with their footsteps to stupidly shuffle forward 5 inches.
Yes thanks for this helpful discussion chaps.

NHB you pose good questions about the Stubborn Sisters. I have searched my feelings and for the moment I still like Stubborn on them. It isn't unlikely that they will one day find themselves outside of the general & BSB's leadership bubble and here the new Stubborn is, for one round at least, even more effective than the old rule (because it's guaranteed that you won't break from combat). I think the extra layer of guarantee here. The unit is already big enough, and able to preserve those numbers comparatively well with Skirmish and Evasion, that killing it outright in one round is extremely unlikely. So Stubborn feels extremely useful in that this unit is now both hard to kill and hard to break.

It ought to be said that, in an MSU context, Stubborn sisters might be a nightmare for other MSU units to deal with on the flank and in due course I can see myself trying it. Or indeed, mining those last points for something important! For instance, right now I've tweaked the build to increase the Prince Bus to 9 RnF models by removing the Drakemaster and the BSB's Seed of Rebirth. This is in the name of getting those numbers up to protect the prince against Monster challenges (see above) and cannonballs. Essentially I'll aim to treat the BSB as the new Drakemaster. If an enemy unit champion issues a challenge, the BSB accepts. If a threatening enemy does so, the Prince accepts. Hopefully, with High Magic I can still provide the BSB with adequate defences while the dragon princes clear out front-ranks to keep him safe.

The amended list is below FYI.

Cheers!

S



Prince 130, Blood of Caledor 15, Great Weapon 4, Barded Elven Steed 18, Bedazzling Helm 60, Opal Amulet 20, Seed of Rebirth 20 - Army General - 267.

Archmage 155, Lvl 4 30, Blood of Caledor 15, High Magic, Barded Elven Steed 18, Spelleater Axe 35, Dragon Helm 10, Cloak of Beards 30, Silvery Wand 15 - 308.

Noble BSB 95, Blood of Caledor 15, Lance 4, Shield 2, Barded Elven Steed 18, Opal Amulet 20, War Banner 25 - 179.

Mage 80, Level 2 30, Sea Guard, Elementalism, Lore Familiar 30, Plague of Rust, Windblast - 140.

27 Seaguard 297, Veterans 27, Shields 27, Sea Master 7, Musician & Standard 10, Loremaster’s Cloak 25, Blazing Banner 25 - 418.
5 Reavers 80, Spears & shortbows 10, scout 10, skirmish 5 - 105.
5 Reavers 80, Spears & shortbows 10, scout 10, skirmish 5 - 105.

9 Dragon Princes 333, Musician & Standard 21, Razor Standard 40 - 387.

19 Sisters of Avelorn 285, Stubborn 19, Champion 7, Ruby Ring of Ruin 30 - 341.
1 Lion Chariot - 125.
1 Lion Chariot - 125.


Total points: 2,500
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1804 Post by Prince of Spires »

One thing I have been wondering about in the discussion about 2500pts, is that it also allows some nasty stuff to be brought along. You could go with a double star dragon list that includes 4 monsters and a bunch of hard hitting cavalry units. Something like

++ Characters [1247 pts] ++
Prince [491 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Star Dragon, Ogre Blade)

Prince [511 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Star Dragon, The Blade of Leaping Gold, Armour of Caledor)

Noble [245 pts]
(Great weapon, Full plate armour, Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon, Dragon Helm)

++ Core Units [634 pts] ++
5 Ellyrian Reavers [80 pts]

5 Ellyrian Reavers [80 pts]

19 Silver Helms [474 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances, Hooves (counts as a hand weapon), Heavy armour, Barding, Shields, High Helm (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Special Units [391 pts] ++
10 Dragon Princes [391 pts]
(Lance, Full plate armour, Shield, Barding, Drakemaster, Standard bearer, Musician )

++ Rare Units [205 pts] ++
Frostheart Phoenix [205 pts]

Just a quick list, probably with sub-optimal character items (though there is not that much room for stuff obviously). More to show what someone could bring. How to deal with 4 monsters bearing down on you?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1805 Post by Halinn »

Prince of Spires wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:05 pm One thing I have been wondering about in the discussion about 2500pts, is that it also allows some nasty stuff to be brought along. You could go with a double star dragon list that includes 4 monsters and a bunch of hard hitting cavalry units. Something like

++ Characters [1247 pts] ++
Prince [491 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Star Dragon, Ogre Blade)

Prince [511 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Star Dragon, The Blade of Leaping Gold, Armour of Caledor)
Save a few points by not giving them full plate (unless they have it because you gave them blood of caledor?)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1806 Post by NHB »

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1807 Post by Prince of Spires »

Halinn wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:33 pm Save a few points by not giving them full plate (unless they have it because you gave them blood of caledor?)
Yeah, I realized as I posted the list. Like I said, the whole thing can be optimized. You could also drop the griffon to give the characters some more protection, and put the BSB on a horse (with either the DP's or the SH's).
NHB wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:34 pm 2000 pts is not helping there:

https://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic ... 19#p953619
I know. But I think the dragon mage and the archmage on dragon are not as strong as dual star dragon. This list is a lot more min-maxed. While the dragon mages might be a bit more random. Though the 3 dragon list is still tough. Especially at 2k pts.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1808 Post by ether_drake »

Seredain wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:23 am
Welcome back buddy! The great thing about high elf miniatures is that, like their old world alter egos, they love for a long time. Get that dust off! I’m super psyched about Old World. If you have to watch your flanks like in ancient times, you’ve got a proper battle game.
Cheers mate!

The Old World is looking good and I just got my paws on a copy of the Forces of Fantasy book (out of stock online, but a few copies at the Warhammer store in Tokyo).
(though it is not yet clear to me if champions count as RnF or not).
The discussions I've been seeing are that unless champions are intentionally targeted by attacks they aren't removed as RnF casualties until the last instance (along with standard bearers). However, if you or your opponent remembers to assign up to three attackers then the champion may be toast.

Page 199 BRB:

Enemy models that are in base contact with a champion can direct attacks against that champion if they wish.

A champion is not counted amongst casualties caused by enemy attacks in combat unless:
• They are the last remaining model in the unit.
• The attacks were directed against the champion by enemy models in base contact.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1809 Post by Halinn »

ether_drake wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:44 amHowever, if you or your opponent remembers to assign up to three attackers then the champion may be toast.
The annoying part of that is that every attack after the first directed at the champion has the potential to be wasted. It's still correct a whole lot of the time, and a feature of having champions beyond the extra attack I guess, but it's a bit bleh that even in the ideal case you have to remember to go "oh, and I direct one attack at your champion"
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1810 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:05 pm One thing I have been wondering about in the discussion about 2500pts, is that it also allows some nasty stuff to be brought along. You could go with a double star dragon list that includes 4 monsters and a bunch of hard hitting cavalry units. Something like

++ Characters [1247 pts] ++
Prince [491 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Star Dragon, Ogre Blade)

Prince [511 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Star Dragon, The Blade of Leaping Gold, Armour of Caledor)

Noble [245 pts]
(Great weapon, Full plate armour, Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon, Dragon Helm)

++ Core Units [634 pts] ++
5 Ellyrian Reavers [80 pts]

5 Ellyrian Reavers [80 pts]

19 Silver Helms [474 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances, Hooves (counts as a hand weapon), Heavy armour, Barding, Shields, High Helm (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Special Units [391 pts] ++
10 Dragon Princes [391 pts]
(Lance, Full plate armour, Shield, Barding, Drakemaster, Standard bearer, Musician )

++ Rare Units [205 pts] ++
Frostheart Phoenix [205 pts]

Just a quick list, probably with sub-optimal character items (though there is not that much room for stuff obviously). More to show what someone could bring. How to deal with 4 monsters bearing down on you?
Hi Prince,

You pose a great question. I mean Holy Cow! The rubber really hits the road with that army of yours.

We have to think about it from two angles: firstly whether or not our own armies could stack up against something like this; separately whether we'd feel comfortable that, if we took this list, it wouldn't be too vulnerable to hard counters from other peoples' armies. It's hard for me to get a feel for this at this stage. Taking the latter first, I've instinctively avoided monster-mash because, say, a High Elf players might reward your choices with the White Sword on top of the Dragonslaying Sword. Perhaps you run into dwarf gunlines with slayers and challenger dwarf kings, or Tomb Kings with Necrosphynxes, or Bretonnian monster-slayers. The One-Hit Wunda. I don't know the meta enough to tell but I worry there are more hard counters out there for monsters.

Having said that, your example list does the right thing by going totally all in. One imagines that fielding double star dragon will be too much for most opponents to bear on top of two additional monsters and all that cavalry. Splendidly strong. On the Lord builds, you shouldn't apologise for their quality because essentially you're doing what you can with the points available. You've spent all but 3 points of your limit! I would be tempted to swap out the BSB's griffon, perhaps for an eagle or perhaps for a horse, and spend the extra points on switching one of the princes to an archmage. That has downsides on survivability and unit redundancy but magic can be a game changer (below)!

The Cavalry Prince against Mass Monsters

At the simplest level, how I would oppose a list like this essentially turns on whether I get my spells off. With Plague of Rust, I can burn down the enemy cavalry very effectively at range. If I can't get the spell off then the armour is scarier. If I can cast Walk Between Worlds on my cav-bus, then the dragons just auto-break from a lost combat (They don't have magic attacks - even if Walk Between Worlds is cast on them (because I see nothing in the books which suggests that the Ethereal special rule grants magic attacks)). Without it, I'm rolling dice against 9 wounds of S7 dragon. If my spells don't pop off then life is much harder.

Some basic principles I think I would follow in any event: 1) get the enemy numbers down. They can't insta-break me with all those thunderstomps unless I'm outnumbered 2-1. So I want to reduce those cavalry units first, aided and abetted, since they're ground-based units, by reaver harass. The enemy dragon princes would be my principle target unless I can't Rust them, in which case I redirect them and shoot the helms instead. The damage on the helms doesn't need to be fatal for the Seaguard to be able to push them off in combat.

Having that ranged advantage essentially gives me the choice of which ground we fight over, since my enemy will have to come to me. That gives me an opportunity to play cat and mouse with the cav bus vs the monsters. If they all charge the Cavbus at once then I'm dead, unless Walk is up, but if my bus charges any one of their units, then the most likely outcome is that their unit breaks in one round (at least in the earlier turns when I have the numbers). So it's a surprisingly cagey match-up. How to play it will depend completely on the terrain you have on the day. To prevent surrounds you can cover the flanks of the cavalry with steadfast infantry, or a building. But otherwise it may be wise to hang back behind the archers with the knights, or to the side, to pull my opponent's army between wanting to attack the infantry and end the shooting, or to be drawn off in an effort to focus my cavalry and having to suffer close-ranged fire and/or risk failed charges & counter-charges. Neither the enemy knights nor the Griffon BSB will enjoy Lion Chariot charges.

In short, focussing my Bus down with such a narrow army has its own risks. I feel like there is some play there: each of the enemy characters is stronger than mine, and yet when combined I still have the strongest single unit on the field. My opponent won't want to hang back and get shot, but neither will he want to rush in blindly and risk getting charged and rolled.

If I wanted to bet the farm that Walk Between Worlds will be successfully cast on the dragon princes, with which they'd be dragon-proof, I would run the Cav Prince solo to threaten the enemy BSB, phoenix and/or cavalry. Since the enemy has no shooting, I could do the same with the BSB to threaten the enemy cavalry. He's a fast unit who'd bring +3CR into any flank and disrupt the enemy rank bonus with First Charge. Excellent with the Seaguard. In either case, by so doing I could perhaps draw the attention of 500 points of dragon to counter a much cheaper character unit. Or they could retain their focus on my own knight unit, which might anyway turn into ghosts and sweep them anyway, whilst my cavalry characters, chariots and infantry clear their knights out.

However I do it, the top priority will be to split the attention of the monsters by threatening to overwhelm their ground-based forces with my combined magic, shooting and combat. If my opponent makes a mistake and splits hits monsters, then I deploy the full bus and ride them down one at a time.

Tricky. But now we're discussing it I'm rather keen to have a go!

Cheers,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1811 Post by Prince of Spires »

Seredain wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:24 pm You pose a great question. I mean Holy Cow! The rubber really hits the road with that army of yours.
For the moment it's a purely theoretical army 8) I drew it up as a thought experiment to see what you could face at 2500pts. Mainly because people mentioned that going higher in points meant fewer monsters... That's also what I meant with that the list or the equipment wasn't promised yet. I think you can make the characters just a bit stronger by being smarter with what they bring.

But I think you understood my intention with it. It's indeed a min-max list that goes for brute force and speed over everything else. Someone will run it in a competitive setting, simply because there will be some lists that have a hard time dealing with it.

The main problem you gave in this list isn't just the 4 monsters, but it's the speed as well. It can be in your face where it wants to be very fast. It can pick its fights. And with 2 units of reavers it has some redirection powers. And both the helms and the DPs pack some punch.

You don't want to charge the monsters into bigger units by themselves. Though the star dragons have unit strength 9, so not too bad. But in general you'll go for combined charges and flank or rear charges whenever possible.

But it remains too be seen how the meta plays out. Maybe the breaking from combat rules turn out to be a great equaliser. I look forward to seeing a battle report from you against such a list. Maybe we should donate two star dragons to spell archer so he can pay you a visit...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1812 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:01 pm
Seredain wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:24 pm You pose a great question. I mean Holy Cow! The rubber really hits the road with that army of yours.
For the moment it's a purely theoretical army 8) I drew it up as a thought experiment to see what you could face at 2500pts. Mainly because people mentioned that going higher in points meant fewer monsters... That's also what I meant with that the list or the equipment wasn't promised yet. I think you can make the characters just a bit stronger by being smarter with what they bring.

But I think you understood my intention with it. It's indeed a min-max list that goes for brute force and speed over everything else. Someone will run it in a competitive setting, simply because there will be some lists that have a hard time dealing with it.

The main problem you gave in this list isn't just the 4 monsters, but it's the speed as well. It can be in your face where it wants to be very fast. It can pick its fights. And with 2 units of reavers it has some redirection powers. And both the helms and the DPs pack some punch.

You don't want to charge the monsters into bigger units by themselves. Though the star dragons have unit strength 9, so not too bad. But in general you'll go for combined charges and flank or rear charges whenever possible.

But it remains too be seen how the meta plays out. Maybe the breaking from combat rules turn out to be a great equaliser. I look forward to seeing a battle report from you against such a list. Maybe we should donate two star dragons to spell archer so he can pay you a visit...
Prince,

You're on! I have all the models to make this army. SA and I were talking about getting a game in so this would be a good opportunity whilst he paints up his new army. The delay is now on me: I need to finish up my Seaguard unit!

Cheers,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1813 Post by NHB »

Hey Seredain,
one topic I mentioned, you missed commenting on I think - or maybe I am just blind going up to the weekend:
The only thing that's left is Magic. So: Loremasters Cloak instead of Ruby Ring? or are the avg. 7 hits S4 hits/turn too juicy to pass up? or Ruby Ring +1 Lodestone?
There are some 3-4 Magic Missile/turn builds out there, that would reduce the Sisters to a burning pile of ash T1 if they are in range/vision.
Sooo looking forward to your first Battle Report, maybe it doesn't have to be against a double dragon list, haha. But I will take anything at this point and believe the Cav Prince still can be highly competitive. (But give the Lion Prince a try at least once :P)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1814 Post by WhiteSword »

Example of list for 1500point?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1815 Post by Seredain »

NHB wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:30 pm Hey Seredain,
one topic I mentioned, you missed commenting on I think - or maybe I am just blind going up to the weekend:
The only thing that's left is Magic. So: Loremasters Cloak instead of Ruby Ring? or are the avg. 7 hits S4 hits/turn too juicy to pass up? or Ruby Ring +1 Lodestone?
There are some 3-4 Magic Missile/turn builds out there, that would reduce the Sisters to a burning pile of ash T1 if they are in range/vision.
Sooo looking forward to your first Battle Report, maybe it doesn't have to be against a double dragon list, haha. But I will take anything at this point and believe the Cav Prince still can be highly competitive. (But give the Lion Prince a try at least once :P)
NHB,

Thanks hombre. My Seaguard aren't far from being finished and then it's on! I have a double dragon army ready to tilt against.

Forgive me if I forgot to respond on the magic missile spam. I've myself toyed with (say) switching out the Rust Mage for a Battle Mage with another fireball. I've not because, having leant into massed low strength low AP shots with my army, the armour piercing represents more dramatic value potential than another 2d6 shots. I think a key consideration with Sisters will be the Evasive special rule which allows you to fall back in good order when targeted in the enemy shooting phase. Added to the Sisters' 30" range, against fireball's 24", you can dance in and out of maximum range with these units in a manner which ought to make them surprisingly hard to focus down with shooting. The Seaguard are my second secret tech in this ranged war. Whilst the sisters dance at range, the seaguard move up into the mid-board. If my opponent ignores them in favour of chasing after the sisters, they bring themselves into the seaguard's close range. If they shoot the seaguard, however, suddenly they're firing into the Loremaster's Cloak.

My feeling is that, when faced with Evasive units, a savvy opponent will want to try and punish them for falling back by crowding them against the back of the board with fast combat units (even giving ground will see a unit destroyed if it hits the backline). Another option would be to put those magic missiles onto cavalry mounts to ensure the Sisters can't evade the shots. But such units will have fewer models and, of course, can be pushed off very effectively by the dragon prince bus.

In practice there will be all sorts of cagey variables into how a shooting match plays out. In principle, I think a combination of Evasive and the fact that my other units can crowd forward should make it difficult for any opponent to focus down my Sisters using purely ranged attacks. I'll crack on building the army and hopefully we shall see some theory put into practice!

Cheers,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1816 Post by Seredain »

WhiteSword wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:10 pm Example of list for 1500point?
Hi WhiteSword,

In truth I haven't thought about 1500 at all. If I may I'll restrict myself to reiterating a general principle, being that it is usually better to do something well or else not bother investing in it. You don't want a "bit of everything" only to be rubbish at all of it. So my instinct would be to try and build either a Very Aggressive or Very Defensive army so that my smaller army can do A Thing very well. I think I'd start with an archmage and go from there.

I don't suppose this will be a huge help. But starting at Square 1 is better than Square 0!

Cheers,

S
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1817 Post by Prince of Spires »

Seredain wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 4:59 pm . The Seaguard are my second secret tech in this ranged war. Whilst the sisters dance at range, the seaguard move up into the mid-board. If my opponent ignores them in favour of chasing after the sisters, they bring themselves into the seaguard's close range. If they shoot the seaguard, however, suddenly they're firing into the Loremaster's Cloak.
I'm interested to learn how your LSG perform. I'm still on the fence about them. On paper they've got a lot going for them. However, moving and shooting doesn't combine all that well, and you'd ideally want to do both with a unit that's both combat and shooting oriented... Maybe their flexibility is great in tournament lists, where you need 1 list that faces off against multiple different opponents. And then you have a unit that can act as spearmen in one battle and archers the next. Let us know :)
Seredain wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:03 pm In truth I haven't thought about 1500 at all. If I may I'll restrict myself to reiterating a general principle, being that it is usually better to do something well or else not bother investing in it. You don't want a "bit of everything" only to be rubbish at all of it. So my instinct would be to try and build either a Very Aggressive or Very Defensive army so that my smaller army can do A Thing very well. I think I'd start with an archmage and go from there.
I agree on the "you don't want a bit of everything" idea for 1500 lists. In my opinion, 1500 pts can be very unbalanced because of this. My main advice is to discuss what kind of lists you want to bring with your opponent before the battle starts and plan accordingly. Or bring 2 lists, one harder and one softer.

The main reason is that with the current rules, you can bring a Star Dragon lord to a 1500pts game. Now, the rest of your army won't be a lot. However, there are very few things that can deal with a Star Dragon at 1500pts, unless you prepare for it. This make these kind of games very much a "either you can kill me and you win or you can't and you auto-lose" kinds of games which aren't fun for anyone. The Star Dragon is of course just an example. There are plenty of other, similar choices. If you have an opponent who just wants to face something which looks like an army and you put 2 monsters and 3 units of archers on the table, then you will not have fun, and vice versa.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1818 Post by NHB »

Could be fun.


High Elf Realms - 1500 - [1498pts]

# Main Force [1498pts]

## Characters [278pts]
Archmage [278pts]: Hand Weapon, High Magic, Wizard Level 4, Barded Elven Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, General, The Cloak of Beards, Seed of Rebirth, The Loremaster's Cloak, Pure of Heart

## Core [391pts]
Ellyrian Reavers [115pts]: Skirmishers
• 5x Ellyrian Reaver [18pts]: Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Light Armour, Cavalry Spear, Shortbow
• 1x Harbinger [8pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]
2x Silver Helms [138pts]:
• 5x Silver Helm [24pts]: Barded Elven Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield
• 1x High Helm [6pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]

## Special [749pts]
Dragon Princes [749pts]:
• 19x Dragon Prince [37pts]: Barded Elven Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, Full Plate Armour, Hand Weapon, Lance, Shield
• 1x Drakemaster [7pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [32pts]: War Banner
• 1x Musician [7pts]

## Rare [80pts]
Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80pts]: Bolt Thrower, Repeater Bolt Thrower, Sea Guard Crew
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1819 Post by NHB »

Seredain wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 4:59 pm
NHB wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:30 pm Hey Seredain,
one topic I mentioned, you missed commenting on I think - or maybe I am just blind going up to the weekend:
The only thing that's left is Magic. So: Loremasters Cloak instead of Ruby Ring? or are the avg. 7 hits S4 hits/turn too juicy to pass up? or Ruby Ring +1 Lodestone?
There are some 3-4 Magic Missile/turn builds out there, that would reduce the Sisters to a burning pile of ash T1 if they are in range/vision.
Sooo looking forward to your first Battle Report, maybe it doesn't have to be against a double dragon list, haha. But I will take anything at this point and believe the Cav Prince still can be highly competitive. (But give the Lion Prince a try at least once :P)
NHB,

Thanks hombre. My Seaguard aren't far from being finished and then it's on! I have a double dragon army ready to tilt against.

Forgive me if I forgot to respond on the magic missile spam. I've myself toyed with (say) switching out the Rust Mage for a Battle Mage with another fireball. I've not because, having leant into massed low strength low AP shots with my army, the armour piercing represents more dramatic value potential than another 2d6 shots. I think a key consideration with Sisters will be the Evasive special rule which allows you to fall back in good order when targeted in the enemy shooting phase. Added to the Sisters' 30" range, against fireball's 24", you can dance in and out of maximum range with these units in a manner which ought to make them surprisingly hard to focus down with shooting. The Seaguard are my second secret tech in this ranged war. Whilst the sisters dance at range, the seaguard move up into the mid-board. If my opponent ignores them in favour of chasing after the sisters, they bring themselves into the seaguard's close range. If they shoot the seaguard, however, suddenly they're firing into the Loremaster's Cloak.

My feeling is that, when faced with Evasive units, a savvy opponent will want to try and punish them for falling back by crowding them against the back of the board with fast combat units (even giving ground will see a unit destroyed if it hits the backline). Another option would be to put those magic missiles onto cavalry mounts to ensure the Sisters can't evade the shots. But such units will have fewer models and, of course, can be pushed off very effectively by the dragon prince bus.

In practice there will be all sorts of cagey variables into how a shooting match plays out. In principle, I think a combination of Evasive and the fact that my other units can crowd forward should make it difficult for any opponent to focus down my Sisters using purely ranged attacks. I'll crack on building the army and hopefully we shall see some theory put into practice!

Cheers,

S
Evasive seems to work against Magic as well right, because Fireball etc. is in the shooting phase....? I didn't notice before!! That would be huge! RAW it also looks like Plague of Rust is the best spell in the game, as it apparently reduces your armor value and both Regen and Ward save are also referencing an armor value....
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1820 Post by Seredain »

Prince of Spires wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:55 am
Seredain wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 4:59 pm . The Seaguard are my second secret tech in this ranged war. Whilst the sisters dance at range, the seaguard move up into the mid-board. If my opponent ignores them in favour of chasing after the sisters, they bring themselves into the seaguard's close range. If they shoot the seaguard, however, suddenly they're firing into the Loremaster's Cloak.
I'm interested to learn how your LSG perform. I'm still on the fence about them. On paper they've got a lot going for them. However, moving and shooting doesn't combine all that well, and you'd ideally want to do both with a unit that's both combat and shooting oriented... Maybe their flexibility is great in tournament lists, where you need 1 list that faces off against multiple different opponents. And then you have a unit that can act as spearmen in one battle and archers the next. Let us know :)
Seredain wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:03 pm In truth I haven't thought about 1500 at all. If I may I'll restrict myself to reiterating a general principle, being that it is usually better to do something well or else not bother investing in it. You don't want a "bit of everything" only to be rubbish at all of it. So my instinct would be to try and build either a Very Aggressive or Very Defensive army so that my smaller army can do A Thing very well. I think I'd start with an archmage and go from there.
I agree on the "you don't want a bit of everything" idea for 1500 lists. In my opinion, 1500 pts can be very unbalanced because of this. My main advice is to discuss what kind of lists you want to bring with your opponent before the battle starts and plan accordingly. Or bring 2 lists, one harder and one softer.

The main reason is that with the current rules, you can bring a Star Dragon lord to a 1500pts game. Now, the rest of your army won't be a lot. However, there are very few things that can deal with a Star Dragon at 1500pts, unless you prepare for it. This make these kind of games very much a "either you can kill me and you win or you can't and you auto-lose" kinds of games which aren't fun for anyone. The Star Dragon is of course just an example. There are plenty of other, similar choices. If you have an opponent who just wants to face something which looks like an army and you put 2 monsters and 3 units of archers on the table, then you will not have fun, and vice versa.
I'd be tempted to say that anyone who brings a star dragon to a 1,500 point game is asking to spend a few more years in Purgatory upon their death. But a more moderate response is probably to ensure that our smaller armies all have a monster-slaying weapon in them. If you're playing Rock Paper Scissors with someone who is incentivised to bring Rock, make sure you bring Paper!

With regard to Seaguard, honestly I have quite high hopes for them.

My big concern is the range but, in principle, having a lot of shots to contribute to my rare-slot missiles and magic is a great way to turn inferior core performance into something really useful (i.e. the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts"). Then there's the defensive board-control utility. In 8th Ed I had to advance my archers as a basic ranks 'n standard infantry enough times that I've come to appreciate the simple utility of having a big block of bodies. Flank-charging in support of heavy cavalry and core-on-core action notwithstanding, I can't count the number of times I've seen a monster or monstrous beast-hero floating around awkwardly because he's unable to run in and break a large infantry unit in one turn. Of course lots of enemy units could achieve this, but it's much more awkward if your opponent has to focus sufficient combat power to attack in one place whilst placing enough strength to resist your own hammer in another, particularly when your lines are staggered. Now that magic item upgrades have become available, armour actually does things, and supporting attacks more valuable, the core seaguard block has never had a better chance to shine. Being able to bring a triad of many shots, many wounds, magic buffs and supporting attacks with static res, in one core unit, just instinctively feels excellent in an all-comers context.

All of this is made better by the fact that you can squeeze all this utility into only one section of army-front. A spear block flanked by a detachment of archers could do all the above in principle, but the danger of an archer detachment is that it acts as a door into your backfield, rather than a barrier, to any non-MSU attacking unit worth its salt.

In short, I'm excited to give them a go! Let's just hope the 24" range manages to hold up in practice. This is my big worry. Wouldn't that be a classic Warhammer experience? Ready up a huge phalanx of models only to ditch them after 3 games...

Cheers!

S
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1821 Post by NHB »

Apparently some shenanigans have been had with "Archer Darts" in some games.
5 naked Archers deployed in 2-2-1 @50pts, moving an impressive 15" on T1
You could swap one of the ERs to two Darts and have 5pts spare.... (and another drop)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1822 Post by Halinn »

NHB wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:00 pm Could be fun.


High Elf Realms - 1500 - [1498pts]

# Main Force [1498pts]

## Characters [278pts]
Archmage [278pts]: Hand Weapon, High Magic, Wizard Level 4, Barded Elven Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, General, The Cloak of Beards, Seed of Rebirth, The Loremaster's Cloak, Pure of Heart

## Core [391pts]
Ellyrian Reavers [115pts]: Skirmishers
• 5x Ellyrian Reaver [18pts]: Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Light Armour, Cavalry Spear, Shortbow
• 1x Harbinger [8pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]
2x Silver Helms [138pts]:
• 5x Silver Helm [24pts]: Barded Elven Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield
• 1x High Helm [6pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]

## Special [749pts]
Dragon Princes [749pts]:
• 19x Dragon Prince [37pts]: Barded Elven Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, Full Plate Armour, Hand Weapon, Lance, Shield
• 1x Drakemaster [7pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [32pts]: War Banner
• 1x Musician [7pts]

## Rare [80pts]
Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower [80pts]: Bolt Thrower, Repeater Bolt Thrower, Sea Guard Crew
19 dragon princes is such a waste of points. Get a tanky BSB in there instead of a bunch of those, so you can have him challenge nasty foes and win the combat on static res

Noble [235 pts]
(Lance, Full plate armour, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer [Battle Banner], Barded Elven Steed, Talisman of Protection, Seed of Rebirth, Pure of Heart)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1823 Post by Prince of Spires »

Why are the DPs a waste of points? Do you mean the unit is too big? I can see some logic in that.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1824 Post by Csjarrat »

Prince of Spires wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:58 pm Why are the DPs a waste of points? Do you mean the unit is too big? I can see some logic in that.
Yeah, you're paying a huge chunk of points for a rank bonus that's not doing much else. Splitting them into two smaller units would be better as you still get a rank bonus and you get two lots of combat units
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1825 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:15 am You're on! I have all the models to make this army. SA and I were talking about getting a game in so this would be a good opportunity whilst he paints up his new army. The delay is now on me: I need to finish up my Seaguard unit!
After several RL months of doom I finally have most of the bases I need to muster an army. Not much painting involved hopefully, just mass rebasing. How are the Seaguard going?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1826 Post by Seredain »

NHB wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:48 am Apparently some shenanigans have been had with "Archer Darts" in some games.
5 naked Archers deployed in 2-2-1 @50pts, moving an impressive 15" on T1
You could swap one of the ERs to two Darts and have 5pts spare.... (and another drop)
That's an interesting idea NHB thanks for noting it. It makes sense. In my last game against SpellArcher's daemons I used MSU sisters as last-minute chaff. Now that mini foot squads can march miles, it's a strong idea!

I'm getting pretty close to finishing my army, so I'll try the reavers first. Being able to scout and charge 360 degrees should give reavers insane utility, if I can keep them alive. They're expensive as pure chaff in the archer dart context, but they can do other things.

For instance, if your enemy is near the backline and you think you can beat him but not auto-break him, place your light cavalry behind his unit. When he falls back in good order, he skips over your light cavalry and off the table he goes. Watch out for this one. Here's another role for MSU archers. Stop light cavalry from getting behind your defensive lines!
Csjarrat wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:30 pm
Prince of Spires wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:58 pm Why are the DPs a waste of points? Do you mean the unit is too big? I can see some logic in that.
Yeah, you're paying a huge chunk of points for a rank bonus that's not doing much else. Splitting them into two smaller units would be better as you still get a rank bonus and you get two lots of combat units
I'm inclined to agree with this. I can see a certain logic in going All The Way on a dragon prince bus. If your opponent calculates that your capital cavalry unit is your main threat, he'll pound it. If you get WBW off, you win combat without the characters. If you fail that spell, though, and you still want a unit that will get across the field and auto-break enemy units by being double the unit strength, you might want a big unit. I haven't gone down that path. I'd worry about getting flanked. Or failing in magic and having no solid challengers to try and nullify big monsters. And I think a BSB is a moral imperative. But otherwise I won't knock it 'til I've tried it!
Last edited by Seredain on Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1827 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:08 pm
Seredain wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:15 am You're on! I have all the models to make this army. SA and I were talking about getting a game in so this would be a good opportunity whilst he paints up his new army. The delay is now on me: I need to finish up my Seaguard unit!
After several RL months of doom I finally have most of the bases I need to muster an army. Not much painting involved hopefully, just mass rebasing. How are the Seaguard going?
Welcome back buddy! I hope everything's going alright and we can get a game in soon. If you're stuck for a while in rebasing hell, I can offer movement trays with Oldhammer-sized base slots in them. Mountain Miniatures sells them. Clever.

The seaguard are coming along splendidly thank you. My Main Man Lee Bowman is painting them on commission. I'm cheating! But he's so good I don't even care. I have toddlers: 30 seaguard would break me.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1828 Post by NHB »

Seredain wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:35 am
That's an interesting idea NHB thanks for noting it. It makes sense. In my last game against SpellArcher's daemons I used MSU sisters as last-minute chaff. Now that mini foot squads can march miles, it's a strong idea!

I'm getting pretty close to finishing my army, so I'll try the reavers first. Being able to scout and charge 360 degrees should give reavers insane utility, if I can keep them alive. They're expensive as pure chaff in the archer dart context, but they can do other things.

For instance, if your enemy is near the backline and you think you can beat him but not auto-break him, place your light cavalry behind his unit. When he falls back in good order, he skips over your light cavalry and off the table he goes. Watch out for this one. Here's another role for MSU archers. Stop light cavalry from getting behind your defensive lines!
Not only that but "FBIGO" counts as a flee. So if you get the enemy unit to do that, they will take 50/50 casualties fleeing through whatever you placed behind that unit. So if you manage to place a Reaver unit behind that elite combat unit that just lost combat... Nice....

But it is also useful for Eagles and Skycutters in particular. Eagle angled should get 3 Files and Skycutter angled 4-5.

Even more interestingly. What about Stubborn units? They get to FBIGO if they want even - though loosing combat by a ton. Do they try for Give ground on dice? They might break.... FBIGO will eat half.....
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1829 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:40 am Welcome back buddy! I hope everything's going alright and we can get a game in soon. If you're stuck for a while in rebasing hell, I can offer movement trays with Oldhammer-sized base slots in them. Mountain Miniatures sells them. Clever.
Thanks dude! Yes, a game soon would be awesome. What's moving me along now is realising I'm not doing Wood Elves, just couldn't give you a decent game with what I've got. So Daemons it must be. Could you stomach 2000pts for the first bash?
Seredain wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:40 am The seaguard are coming along splendidly thank you. My Main Man Lee Bowman is painting them on commission. I'm cheating! But he's so good I don't even care. I have toddlers: 30 seaguard would break me.
Very wise. The pink fluffy bunny of hobby aspiration meets the iron fist of early parenthood!
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