Starting over again: Serious No-Magic list. Please critique!

[Ptolemy]

Alrighty, rather than post this onto the tail end of my WoC Blog (which would just confuse and clog up things), in the spirit of starting from scratch, I'm starting up a new blog for our new elves.

I'll leave this first post solely for the current list I'm working with.

Current List - 5/16/13

2500 pts

Lords

Anointed of Asuryan - General
-Mounted on Frostheart
-Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Pot of Fools

Heroes

Noble
-Mounted on Griffon (swiftsense)
-BSB, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown, Great Weapon. Heavy Armor, shield

Noble
-Mounted on Griffon (swiftsense)
- Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, lance, heavy armor

Core

5x Ellyrian Reavers - mus, bows
5x Ellyrian Reavers - mus, bows
5x Ellyrian Reavers - mus, bows
5x Silver Helms - shields
5x Silver Helms - shields
5x Silver Helms - shields

Special
1x Skycutter Chariot
5x Shadow Warriors

Rare
1x Frostheart Phoenix
1x Frostheart Phoenix
1x Great Eagle

[Eltherion]

How many points is the list?

Why have you chosen Lore of Heavens?

[Ptolemy]

List Theory and requirements

So, I've got a few requirements on any army I play. These ARE in order of importance.

1) Fun - The list must be fun. For me that means I don't want a lot of repetitive units, duplicated elements and such. I like an army that plays with a combined arms feel rather than relying too heavily on any one particular trick, unit or phase of the game. This is what drew me to HEs as my first army years ago now.

2) Visual Appeal - As some of you know who have visited my HE and WoC painting blogs, I put my army appearance before its competitiveness. OTT display boards, lots of unit fillers, conversions, etc. This is what makes me excited about the hobby.

3) Competitiveness - I don't need an optimal army, as evidenced by this being third on the list, but I also don't want a themed/fluff list with no real chance in a competitive tournament. If I don't believe you can win with a unit choice against a majority of all-comers opponents, I'm not going to play that unit. My goal in any two day tournament is to always finish in the top 1/4th. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't. Either way, I want to give myself the opportunity to do that well.

[Ptolemy]

-Units Theory (All theory based on use in the 8th ed army book)-

Characters

Characters on Monsters or Chariots
None played so far.

Cavalry Characters
[Prince on Steed, Str7, 1+/1+][Games Played With: 1][Current Grade: B] - A competitive build. The presence of Core knights makes this character a natural fit for some lists. 4 x Str7 attacks is a significant threat when coupled with ASF rerolls and is capable of fighting challenges against powerful combat characters. Lack of ward save makes death magic a concern, but could be given Dragon Armor and coupled in a unit with a High mage on steed to improve Ward save.

[BSB Noble on Steed, Star Lance, GW, Golden Crown][Games Played With: 1][Current Grade: B] - A natural pairing with the Cavalry Prince. In conjunction, should be able to kill anything of significant threat barring a Nurgle Daemon Prince or 3++ rerolling 1s WoC Lord/BSB. His ability to switch to a GW when charged or in subsequent rounds of combat is a significant boost to help the unit grind combats beyond the charge.

Infantry Characters
[Archmage, Level 4, Book of Hoeth][Current Grade: B-][Games Played With: 1] - Inclusion necessitates the likely inclusion of Core Archers to help protect the model. I do not see the value of putting the model in a combat unit, even if sporting a 4++ and High Magic. Too big a risk.
-Lores Used -
-Heavens - An excellent pairing with the Book of Hoeth. No spell requires more than 3 dice with the book except for Chain Lightning. That means three spells in a typical magic phase. Highly efficient.

Core
[Archers][Current Grade: ][Games Played With: 0]
Not yet used in a game.
[Spearmen][Current Grade:][Games Played With: 0]
Not yet used in a game.
[Lothern Sea Guard][Current Grade:][Games Played With: 0]
Not yet used in a game.
[Ellyrion Reavers][Current Grade: A-][Games Played With: 1] - In the role of support, Core and fast cavalry, they have performed (as expected) extremely well. Considering Core MUST be purchased, they are difficult to pass up in any core configuration. So far, I favor bows over spears, despite the increased chaff killing power of spears. Close range archery can be far more useful in some circumstances and, often, charging fast cavalry prohibits them from the more important redirection and warmachine hunting jobs they have. Short range fire is easy to achieve with their impressive 18" march move.
[Silver Helms][Current Grade: B][Games Played With: 1 - They are what they are. Ideal in small units when unsupported with character punch/killing power. I think a unit of 5 of these is better suited to chaff charging/clearing than 5 Reavers with spears, thus it makes sense to assign that role to 5 man silver helm units and leave the reavers to shoot. In a large cavalry unit, they suffer most from the inability to take a magic standard. As Core Tax, they are versatile enough to fill the role of a mainline combat unit when supported with characters but can also serve as flank/warmachine protectors with a surgical application of accurate, Str5 attacks. See Seredain's thread for a much more in-depth analysis.

Special

Elite Infantry
[Swordmasters][Current Grade: C][Games Played With: 1-Still a massive template liability. Fighting power is quite strong, even without rerolls, but arriving to combat with enough bodies in tact to take advantage of Martial Prowess is difficult. WS 6 and Lore of Heavens (Harmonic Convergence) synergize optimally.
-Supported by Banner of the World Dragon (1x)- The Banner has proven to prevent charges that contain characters. If the character will be nullified, enemies are often unwilling to commit the enemy unit to a charge.

Chariots
[Lothern Skycutter][Current Grade: C+][Games Played With: 1 - The lack of scythed wheels is still a MAJOR drawback for all elf chariots. The lack of the guaranteed minimum of 2 hits puts more pressure on the underwhelming crew. Flight is a distinct advantage, but the chariots perform for all purposes identical to the Tiranoc chariot for all meaningful combats. Managed to win combat on the charge against Pegasus Knights, but typically by only 1 or 2 CR on average.

Other
[Shadow Warriors][Current Grade: B][Games Played With: 1 - For points spent, they are an efficient choice. Enemy is forced to consider deployment and potentially deploy one unit or more non-optimally. Can redirect more cheaply than any other unit save Eagles and can offer accurate, if weak, shooting.

Rare
[Flamespyre Phoenix][Current Grade: D+][Games Played With: 1 - Very expensive model with limited application against many armies. Its statline dictates it does not want to fight against anything that it can't Thunderstomp. Yet, its Attack profile of 3 means that it can't reasonably charge a ranked unit even WITH Thunderstomp. Attempts to utilize the Large Template Burst effect of the rebirth chart strategically is gimmicky. Seems to be best in pairs to support an all out gunline, but then draws away from the army's best shooting threat (Sisters).

[Sisters of Avelorn][Current Grade: C][Games Played With: 1 - Lack of musician for swift reforms combined with 24" range limit the unit substantially. Accuracy is good, but heavily dependent upon Terrain meta to make good use of. I feel that in small numbers 5-7 per unit, they fail to have a substantial impact aside from forcing the enemy to deploy their regen monster (Hydra, Abomb, Chimera) in another part of the board. In large numbers, could present a signification threat, but are an easy point grab for enemy flying characters and any flying monster.

[Ptolemy]

How many points is the list?

Why have you chosen Lore of Heavens?

2500. I feel that Heavens offers natural synergies with the Silver Helm unit in the list. In addition, Comet can be a back breaking spell that forces the enemy to change their movement phase in drastic ways or risk losing large chunks of points at a time. In addition, with the only magical boost we have to our magic phase being the Book of Hoeth, I think a cheap Lore is going to be critical in an all-comers environment.

I am a longtime fan of Shadow, but it is FAR too likely to leave you in a situation where you roll 4 or 5 dice in an early magic phase and be only able to cast either Withering or Pit when you really need both to draw out the scroll.

[Ptolemy]

Game 1- vs Bretonnians



Full Report follows

My List as per OP.

His list

HKB Lord on Peg
BSB
Level 4 (heavens) with Stubborn crown
Level 2 (Beasts)

12x Knights of the Realm
12x Knights of the Realm
12x Knights of the Realm

3x Pegs
3x Pegs
3x Pegs

2x Trebs

10x Peasant Bowmen


Spells - Of note, I chose against having comet and went for Convergence, Wind, Thunderbolt and Iceshard.

Asur Turn 1


Well, I thought deployment was in my favor so I pushed the advantage. He had overflew his vanguard on his left most pegs and I wanted to see just what a skycutter could do so I went ahead and charged. I figured this was the sort of combat a chariot lives for. My Reavers on the right used their vanguard and subsequent 18" move to get out of the charge arc of the knights and fire into the trebuchet, putting a miraculous three wounds on it. The other reavers set up to double flee and clear a big charge lane for the Silver Helms while the rest of the army proceeded in a general advance.

Magic was very effective, with the Book of Hoeth phase with 10 dice forcing out BOTH of his scrolls in order to manage the phase and prevent me from setting him up for abject failure in his first turn.

Shooting was worthless. Everything missed, with the exception of the aformentioned reavers.

In the lone combat, the Skycutter did one impact hit and managed only a pair of wounds while it took one back. Combat was won, but with the BSB nearby the pegs held and he reformed to expose a corner of the Skycutter so he could charge with his knights.

Brets Turn 1


As expected, his knights charged, with the left most unit hitting the Skycutter and the middle unit getting stalled by the double flee. The diagram doesn't show it, but he had vanguarded one of his peg knights at a slight angle and he did have room for a legal charge on the reavers on the right to save his treb for the next turn. I was fine with it, because I had to roll a double six to flee off the board and the enemy KotR unit would prevent him completing the charge. The other peg unit went for a very long charge on the Shadow Warriors who happily fled once and then again when his KoTR unit on the right also charged them. 70 point scouts just held two units to basically no movement. Win for me.

Magic - I let him get off Savage Beast on his BSB, as he expected to be charged by my Swordmasters. I then REMINDED him that I had the BoTWD there and he rescinded (it was a friendly game) and went with Wyssans instead, which failed to go off. I then was able to out dice him, thanks to the Book, to shut down all other magic.

His shooting was solid, with one Treb killing one knight on an off target hit and the second killing nine swordmasters. I can't help but think how many WLs would have survived if it had been them.

In combat, he killed the Skycutter easily, as expected and then needed an 11 for his knights to overrun into mine, which he naturally made. Its my own fault. A 13'' gap would have been a very safe charge for me without risking the possibility of him making a crazy overrun like that.



Well...time to see what some of these things can do. I charged the Flamespyre into the Pegs and the central Skycutter into the flank of his right most peg knights' flank. The swordmasters failed their charge needing to roll an 8 and getting a 7. No worries, I had a contingency plan in place. One of my reavers rallied and set up a redirect to keep the knights off the SMs for one more turn. The revers on the right rallied and set up to redirect the knights towards the impassible terrain piece.

Magic was a non event, rolling a 2 and a 1 which subsequently screwed the Flamespyre by dropping its Strength by 1.

Shooting picked up a bit here, with one RBT putting a hit on the Bret Lord who Ward Saved it. The other RBT volley fired into the opposite treb to put one last wound on it and finish it off. The sisters and reavers put all their shots into the peg knights in the center but managed only 1 wound.

In the Knight on Helm combat, his ward saves came up BIG, saving 4 of the 5 wounds done by the combination of the Prince and BSB. I did manage to pull down a few more knights and won combat handily thanks to his inability to hit and my solid armor. He held, not needing much help.

Bret Turn 2


Things seemed under control for me, despite some lackluster performance of my units. His Lord and KoTR on the left both charged the reavers, who had to hold and die to maintain the safety of the Swordmasters. His Knights on the right were forced to charge the reavers, who fled safely beyond the impassible, leaving the knights stranded again. He reshuffled some of his units, rallied the fleers and got ready for the turn.

Magic was a non event with a double 1 phase for him. Shooting also did nothing.

Combat saw the reavers slaughtered, though they DID score a cheeky wound on the Lord, HAH! Take that! Always roll your chaff attacks! The Lord went for a double six overrun into the knight, but lightning doesn't strike twice and he came up an inch short.

The Prince and BSB continued to whittle down the knights who kept making their damn ward saves. He lost, but with the general and BSB nearby, everyone held.

Asur Turn 3


I was hopeful for a number of different things to happen this turn, few did. My Swordmasters failed a charge on the knights AGAIN with a bad roll and I had to scramble to give up another reaver unit to save them. The Flamespyre was going to do a flyby on the Lord for free hits, hoping for a cheap wound, but went for the knights instead, doing 4 total wounds of which 1 got past the armor. My remaining skycutter charged and destroyed the remaining treb.

Magic saw me bubble Harmonic Convergence. With Shooting, I opened fire on the Lord with both Bolt Throwers. Both hit, both wounded and his saved them again with two ward saves (three in a row now). The Sisters kept bombing away on the Peg knight unit, but the added -1 from skirmishing really made them feel VERY mediocre.

Combat on the Knights continued, which some headway being made and four being killed. However, he turned around and killed three back. I won again, this time with a decent margin thanks to BSB and rank and needing a 4 with a reroll, he held.

Bret Turn 3


As expected, the Peg Lord saw his target and charged the knights. His peg knight unit charged the flank of the swordmasters. With my AM in the unit AND on that flank, I knew I'd lose her, the combat and potentially enough models to no longer be steadfast. I chose to flee, hoping to escape through the combat to safety, which I did. The knights on the right were redirected again, but the reavers left the board and the Shadow Warriors fled from the redirect.

Magic was a problem and I felt the lack of a scroll here, as he got Savage Beast off on the Lord. I let him slaughter my Silver Helm champ, but instead of scoring 1 or 2 wounds he scored a massive 5 for the overkill. I still won by thinning the knights down more but he held.

Asur Turn 4


Well, alot would depend on my ability to manage his support charges and kill his Lord before his Lord could wipe out my characters. My Skycutter hit his peasants in the rear, my swordmasters rallied and the Phoenix burned the knights again, killing two.

Magic was a solid phase, with me putting Curse of the Midnight Wind on his Lord, making HKBs very unlikely and me getting off Convergence on the knights. Shooting was mediocre. Volley fire on the left most knight unit took down two. The RBT on the right elected to move behind the hill (not shown) because it was a full 2'' high and thus blocked LoS for the knights to charge it next turn. The Sisters continued to do nothing, putting 1 wound on the peg knights, even at close range.

Combat saw me issue a challenge with my BSB, figuring that with the Golden Crown, he had a CHANCE of surviving the Lord's Savage Beast attacks if he were to miss. The Noble tried valiantly, putting three wounds in three attacks on the Lord who, again ward saved ALL three wounds. In return, even the Golden Crown couldn't save the BSB who died. In an ironic twist of fate, my Lord whiffed badly, only putting down one knight.

The Skycutter did one impact hit and killed two other peasants, who held on steadfast thanks to the nearby knight unit.

Bret Turn 4


He brought his Peg knights into the flank of my Silver Helms, closing the door on what he hoped would be the hammer blow. His central peg knights charged the sisters who elected to flee but he redirected into the other unit who went a whopping three inches on their flee and were run down. The shadow warriors fled another knight charge and he failed to redirect into the already fleeing sisters so they once again went nowhere.

Magic saw me sit with all my dice and try to stop Savage Beasts, which I did. He did manage Wyssans on the Lord though. Combat saw him not offer a challenge with the Lord and I took the opportunity to let my Prince finish his remaining knights which he did. His Lord killed three of the Helms and the pegs another 1 but with him having no ranks, we held on steadfast but things were getting ugly. The Lord had to die.

Asur Turn 5


It was time to make or break. The Flamespyre charged the flank of the peg knights hoping the extra +2 combat res would be the difference. The skycutter charged the rear of the peg knights who held, hoping I wouldn't make the above average charge. Too bad for him, I did. The swordmasters moved to flank charge the knights on the left if they charged the helms next turn.

Magic was a non event, once again causing the Phoenix to be down to a 6+ ward at the WORST possible time. Shooting was better, seeing two volleys from the RBTs hitting the knight unit on the left and panicking it.

The Skycutter once again won combat with no wounds on the peg knights by virtue of the rear charge but failed yet again to catch the slippery MyLittlePony crew.

In the main event, my Prince called out his Lord, who was more than happy to oblige. In a clash of furious steel on ithilmar (he had the ASF sword), my Prince finally managed a way through the Lady's protection and killed the Lord. However, in true Bretonnian fashion, the Lord managed to HKB the Prince as he went down. With the Double KO, the combat came down to EVERYONE doing no wounds, Phoenix included, but the charge and flank bonus broke the pegs and the Phoenix ran them down.

Bret Turn 5


He went for broke by shoving his peg knights into the remaining five silver helms, knowing a single casualty would likely break them. The Knights on the right were forced to march onto the hill in order to have a charge they could see, with all of the elves lurking and the back of the hill. The peg knights rallied, (of course...fourth time this game?) as did the knights who fled from the shooting.

His magic went for Wyssans on six dice on the pegs, but I stopped it. He did get harmonic convergence on them.

In combat, he did three wounds on the Silver Helms, who's stout armor held firm! The elves lost the combat, but held on steadfast, setting up the swordmaster counter charge.

Asur Turn 6


As promised, the swordmasters finally saw combat, sweeping the Pegs aside. The Skycutter charged and AGAIN broke the pegs (barely this time, as it took two wounds in return) and were able to finally run them down.

On the right, I knew I couldn't do much to save the RBT, so I just moved everything else out of the way.

With that, we ended the game. He didn't fancy risking the remaining knights on the left and his knights on the right ran over the RBT.

Results - It ended up a very minor win to me.. There were lots of points left in all of our units, he had lost his general but his other characters were alive. Overall, he had some impressive dice at certain times and I know that if any one set of those rolls had not turned up his way, I could have massacred him. On the other hand, he played well considering his poor deployment.

Take away - Well, the Prince and BSB can certainly grind out a combat. The SMs didn't do much but seeing them lose 9 soldiers to a treb when the WLs would have lost six and been stubborn and thus able to take the flank charge that the SMs had to flee from makes me think they might be as poor a choice as I expected in those numbers. I want to see what a straight swap between the AM and a Loremaster does. I'm curious if the spell variety is able to work as a solo caster.

The Flamespyre seems like a non-starter for me. With three attacks, its an embarassingly bad combat monster. The flaming wake attack is more of a sideshow rather than anything substantial. Even in a best case scenario, its only mediocre. The Frostheart could have joined combats, taken on units on its own, support and save units in trouble with its -1 strength aura. I'll be putting away the red paint for certain.

Well, there it is. Fix my mistakes, I can see I made a bunch.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Six Elf unit of Reavers with Spears, dedicated War Machine hunters?

[Caradryal]

Six Elf unit of Reavers with Spears, dedicated War Machine hunters?

Should be useful for clearing up chaff also, such as skinks and harpies.

Excellent thread so far Ptolemy, I am liking the combined arms feel of the army and I'm especially interested in how the mage fares whilst not part of a cavalry bus. I'm really looking to get Prince Caradryal riding again now the new book has landed

I will be following with much interest.

[Curu Olannon]

Now this is one blog I'll for sure be following Interesting to see your initial thoughts but I must say that it was quite the teaser to post that deployment photo without any BR!

As to the list, I'm surprised your BSB doesn't receive an A grade. I think he's by far one of the most reliable builds in our new book. Will be interesting to see your thoughts and playstyle development!

[Lecai]

Hello, Ptolemy, I was following your previous army blog with the infantry-centric list nicely utilizing the PG unit with characters and I've really enjoyed those tournament battle reports of yours with the nice pictures (esp. the ones you won )! I believe your list for the new book has a lot of potential and your version is very similar to the list I've come up with for the ETC-hammer games now that the first HE draft has been revealed yesterday.

[Archmage, Level 4, Book of Hoeth][Current Grade: B-][Games Played With: 1] - Inclusion necessitates the likely inclusion of Core Archers to help protect the model. I do not see the value of putting the model in a combat unit, even if sporting a 4++ and High Magic. Too big a risk.

[Swordmasters][Current Grade: C][Games Played With: 1-Still a massive template liability. Fighting power is quite strong, even without rerolls, but arriving to combat with enough bodies in tact to take advantage of Martial Prowess is difficult. WS 6 and Lore of Heavens (Harmonic Convergence) synergize optimally.
-Supported by Banner of the World Dragon (1x)- The Banner has proven to prevent charges that contain characters. If the character will be nullified, enemies are often unwilling to commit the enemy unit to a charge.

Would you consider taking an Archmage with this "defensive" setup:

Archmage (The Lore of High Magic) - Level 4, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Endurance, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon = 305

You could try deploying him with your unit of SM's or maybe WL's to both protect them from those templates with the Ward saves stacking on top of Ironcurse Icon and also making them tougher in CC thanks to the Shield of Saphery. The +1 to cast from Lileath's Blessing and the cheap-ish casting costs of even the boosted versions of the High Magic spells lessens the need to take the BoH and the value of a Dispel Scroll in a list like yours which needs to combo-charge the enemy in that crucial turn is also massive. Both Drain Magic and the Scroll will be depriving the enemy from buffing up his important regiments in the turn you've set your killer units up for a deadly combined charge maneuver.

[Flamespyre Phoenix][Current Grade: D+][Games Played With: 1 - Very expensive model with limited application against many armies. Its statline dictates it does not want to fight against anything that it can't Thunderstomp. Yet, its Attack profile of 3 means that it can't reasonably charge a ranked unit even WITH Thunderstomp. Attempts to utilize the Large Template Burst effect of the rebirth chart strategically is gimmicky. Seems to be best in pairs to support an all out gunline, but then draws away from the army's best shooting threat (Sisters).

I believe a Frostheart Phoenix could work better in your list with its better statline and the Blizzard Aura helping out both the Phoenix charging stuff by itself and when combo-charging with your other units. Even when charging a unit with S6 attacks with the Frostheart and the Helmbus the enemy will have to deal with a respectable 4+ AS on your Helms and a 2+ or 3+ on your better armoured characters. A lot of people seem to be having great success with the Frosties at the moment...

P.S.

You could try giving the Potion of Foolhardiness to either your Prince or the BSB, the extra attack on the charge is really valuable when coupled with those few but devastating attacks on these characters. You could take the PoF and the Luckstone on the Star Lance BSB and give the Crown to your BoH Archmage. The Other Trickster's Shard is also very good with the high quality attacks of your characters and even though you haven't posted the batrep VS the Brets yet, I'm sure the TOTS on the Prince would have helped a lot in that battle!

[Elithmar]

What do you think about skycutters? Do you think one would be fine, or do you think it would be taken down too easily? Do you think there are enough cannon targets that just one would do? I'm not suggesting that you drop one but I'm interested to see if it's either at least two or none.

I think I would have deployed your army almost the same against your opponent's deployment. I was going to say the skycutters might be better on the other flank to shoot the knights and then charge maybe the pegs or trebuchets on that side but then I realised they don't have eagle eyes.

I'm looking forward to the full report.

[Ptolemy]

What do you think about skycutters? Do you think one would be fine, or do you think it would be taken down too easily? Do you think there are enough cannon targets that just one would do? I'm not suggesting that you drop one but I'm interested to see if it's either at least two or none.

What do you think about skycutters? Do you think one would be fine, or do you think it would be taken down too easily? Do you think there are enough cannon targets that just one would do? I'm not suggesting that you drop one but I'm interested to see if it's either at least two or none.

I think I would have deployed your army almost the same against your opponent's deployment. I was going to say the skycutters might be better on the other flank to shoot the knights and then charge maybe the pegs or trebuchets on that side but then I realised they don't have eagle eyes.

I'm looking forward to the full report.

Yup, left the bolt throwers on the Cutters at home. I will try them in future games. Basically, as I'll explain a bit more thoroughly in the battle report when I post it later, this list was purposefully sub-optimal. I have a theory on testing lists when you are starting a new army. I did it with my WoC army and I feel like it landed me in the place where I wanted the army to be. I think Cutters are a prime example of the old adage that, "One is none and two is one."

Hello, Ptolemy, I was following your previous army blog with the infantry-centric list nicely utilizing the PG unit with characters and I've really enjoyed those tournament battle reports of yours with the nice pictures (esp. the ones you won )! I believe your list for the new book has a lot of potential and your version is very similar to the list I've come up with for the ETC-hammer games now that the first HE draft has been revealed yesterday.

Thanks, the list isn't really a plan at all going forward. Its just one of about five lists I'm going to test to see. I'll tweak each one for a few games and I'll be bringing whichever of the five lists I think are weakest against the opponents I'm playing. For example, I think the Star Dragon or Anointed on Frostheart lists against this Bret army are auto-win, so I brought cavalry instead.

Would you consider taking an Archmage with this "defensive" setup:

Archmage (The Lore of High Magic) - Level 4, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Endurance, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon = 305

Its a solid set up, certainly. Worth a try when I give High Magic a shot. I think High Magic is one of those lores that require you to have an army list that can do all of its own killing and you leave magic to a support role rather than a combat role. I DO fully expect to have to drop the Book of Hoeth for a scroll. I'm totally believing that our army still needs a strong magic phase to succeed but they have removed the tools to do it when you have only 2d6 power dice. So, you are left in a place where you get a pair of bad magic phases (which happened to me in this previous game) and find that your 400pts or so invested basically amount to nothing. Its not just the D3 dice lost from the banner. It was all the little ways we were able to grab a dice here and there, even just with bringing multiple mages for extra channel attempts.

What I'm REALLY thinking about is out and out replacing the Archmage with a Loremaster with Scroll and 2+/5+ as the army's sole caster. Its another list I'll be testing.

I believe a Frostheart Phoenix could work better in your list with its better statline and the Blizzard Aura helping out both the Phoenix charging stuff by itself and when combo-charging with your other units.

Agreed. The Flamespyre was taken because I don't think it will be very good, so I wanted to see if I would be proven wrong.

You could try giving the Potion of Foolhardiness to either your Prince or the BSB, the extra attack on the charge is really valuable when coupled with those few but devastating attacks on these characters. You could take the PoF and the Luckstone on the Star Lance BSB and give the Crown to your BoH Archmage. The Other Trickster's Shard is also very good with the high quality attacks of your characters and even though you haven't posted the batrep VS the Brets yet, I'm sure the TOTS on the Prince would have helped a lot in that battle!

Both of these ideas are in other lists. I took the Ironcurse just because, again, going for sub-optimal choices when testing.

As to the list, I'm surprised your BSB doesn't receive an A grade. I think he's by far one of the most reliable builds in our new book. Will be interesting to see your thoughts and playstyle development!

I anticipate him being a strong choice. I just want to grade based on performance. Sometimes, our individual playstyles mean that we just can't simply make things work that others do great with. For example, in my WoC army, people cannot understand why I choose Slaanesh mark over any other mark for 95% of my units. Yet, for me, the mark of Slaanesh makes most of my units perform a full grade point better.

Six Elf unit of Reavers with Spears, dedicated War Machine hunters?

Nothing so complicated. It allows me to hit 625 for core points on the nose. I'm not spending one point more than I have to on that crap.

[aurynn]

I am with you on the Heavens lore. I used it many times and it always performed wonderfully. It complements HE play and has great synergies with units. Will follow your thread. Looking forward for the batrep.

[Tethlis]

Now this is one blog I'll for sure be following Interesting to see your initial thoughts but I must say that it was quite the teaser to post that deployment photo without any BR!

Heh, I'm in the same boat. I've been checking this thread 3 or 4 times a day since it went up, hoping to see that report

Good unit breakdown as well. I look forward to seeing how things evolve as you continue to get the army on the table.

[Ptolemy]

Battle Report is up a few posts above.

Something to keep in mind - part of my list-testing philosophy with a new book is to develop a number of lists and play them all, but always using the one with the weakest matchup. In this game, I felt my cavalry Prince with SM should struggle.

I know the Flamespyre is not as good as the Frostheart. That being said, I like proof of these things. Everyone told me how crap the Phoenix Guard were in 7th and they were always my best performing unit in Tournament after Tournament so...I prefer to see something fail and know WHY it fails. For the same reason, the SMs are in this game instead of the WLs or PGs.

[Atlantic]

My main army is Bretonnia! I'm always excited to see them on the table.

Couple thoughts:

I don't know if it was a typo or not, but you said his peasants held on steadfast by being close to his unit of kotr.

Did he have a full extra rank to get that steadfast? The knights don't provide that. They just let peasants use their leadership if they are within 6.

I think you should give the fire bird a few more games. Bretonnian Knights are pretty sturdy. I think the fire bird is going to be invaluable against units like clan rats, men at arms, etc. This guy really didn't have anything good for you to use him on. Can't stomp cav or warmachines, and str 4 doesn't do much against a 2+ 6+.


With all that said, the new book has made me lose alot of enthusiam for my brets. Dragon Princes and Silver Helms just totally wreck my Bretonnian knights in regard to value.

[Ptolemy]

My main army is Bretonnia! I'm always excited to see them on the table.

Couple thoughts:

I don't know if it was a typo or not, but you said his peasants held on steadfast by being close to his unit of kotr.

Did he have a full extra rank to get that steadfast? The knights don't provide that. They just let peasants use their leadership if they are within 6.

I think you should give the fire bird a few more games. Bretonnian Knights are pretty sturdy. I think the fire bird is going to be invaluable against units like clan rats, men at arms, etc. This guy really didn't have anything good for you to use him on. Can't stomp cav or warmachines, and str 4 doesn't do much against a 2+ 6+.


With all that said, the new book has made me lose alot of enthusiam for my brets. Dragon Princes and Silver Helms just totally wreck my Bretonnian knights in regard to value.

The peasants had six models left in a rank with kotr within 12". Pretty sure we played it right.

Im not convinced the flame phoenix is that good even against skaven.

[RogueSun]

Im not convinced the flame phoenix is that good even against skaven.

I think more games are needed to really come to this conclusion. D6 S4 + Another D3 per rank means that this guy obliterates lightly armored blocks by simply flying over it. That's significant, especially seeing as you can us him to get in the way of charges or set him up for better supporting charge positions WHILE getting Wake of Fire off. I mean, you can apply him to clear out chaff just by maneuvering into a better spot on the battlefield.

Don't write him off just yet. Give him some more games. We know the power of the Frostheart. The Flamespyre is what we're still scratching our heads about.

[Tethlis]

Thanks for the report. I think you played it well, considering your opponents dice and your deliberate choice to try "softer" choices.

-What's the verdict on the Cav Bus? You mentioned they grind very well, but do you consider this to be a potentially optimal setup? Or more of an experiment at this point?

-This is definitely not a good matchup for the Flamespyre or Sisters, and a good reminder of how limited Strength 4 hits can be against a lot of opponents. It still blows my mind a little bit that the Frost Phoenix got Toughness 6, when it could have Toughness 5 and probably still be viable. Toughness 5 and no Frost Aura on the Flame variant makes that thing seem downright squishy, and it doesn't help that his stats took further nerfs from some pretty extreme Winds of Magic rolls at certain moments. I know you mentioned in the past that you were having trouble adding multiple combat threats into lists, and I'm sure you've gotten plenty of ideas now, but the Frost Phoenix really helps alleviate that. Having gotten him into a ton of solo combats as a result of crappy play, I firmly vouch that he's very good at holding up threats that aren't sitting on a ton of static combat resolution. When you do decide to bring him back into the fold, I think you'll find that those mobile, well-protected threats get stopped in their tracks by a Toughness 7 flying monster with a Ward Save.

-It's funny how Stubborn ends up being so useful on the White Lions... In the times I've used Swordmasters, it's usually that one round of bad dice, followed by that overwhelmingly nasty Break Test, that really turns me off to them. It's such a luxury that White Lions can take a bad round of dice, or eat an overmatched charge, and still hold until help arrives.

-Despite the bad impact hit rolls, I really like how you used the Skycutters. In my experience with them, they had a tendency to die pretty quickly. However, they're so good at getting the jump on other fast troops, and quite good at being a self-contained threat against the right targets. It's nice having that kind of speed and flexibility in an army that typically relies heavily on infantry. I don't know if I'll be keeping mine around due to their light hitting power, but I think you highlighted how they can be used to cause trouble for your opponents and even gather some Victory Points too.

Looking forward to more.

[Stormie]

Good game and a hard-earned win against a tenacious opponent!

Why did you warn your opponent off of casting Savage Beast?

[Atlantic]

My main army is Bretonnia! I'm always excited to see them on the table.

Couple thoughts:

I don't know if it was a typo or not, but you said his peasants held on steadfast by being close to his unit of kotr.

Did he have a full extra rank to get that steadfast? The knights don't provide that. They just let peasants use their leadership if they are within 6.

I think you should give the fire bird a few more games. Bretonnian Knights are pretty sturdy. I think the fire bird is going to be invaluable against units like clan rats, men at arms, etc. This guy really didn't have anything good for you to use him on. Can't stomp cav or warmachines, and str 4 doesn't do much against a 2+ 6+.


With all that said, the new book has made me lose alot of enthusiam for my brets. Dragon Princes and Silver Helms just totally wreck my Bretonnian knights in regard to value.

The peasants had six models left in a rank with kotr within 12". Pretty sure we played it right.

Im not convinced the flame phoenix is that good even against skaven.

6 models in the second rank?

That would make them steadfast. Unfortunately they should be testingon a 5 though not an 8. They have to be within 6 inches to use the knights leadership.

[Stormie]

First rank of 5 models counts, so they would have been steadfast. The 6/12" thing though, who knows...

[dabber]

I think more games are needed to really come to this conclusion. D6 S4 + Another D3 per rank means that this guy obliterates lightly armored blocks by simply flying over it.

Not really. 40 Skaven slaves, 5x8. d6+7d3 hits is about 17 hits, which kills about 12. 24 archers (similar points) at long range will do that in two shooting phases. Using the Flamespyre on fast cavalry doesn't work great either. d6 hits on wolf riders kills about 2. Sure they might panic, but again archers should do at least as well. And archers aren't exactly good.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Once it dies it can create a no go area, that's pretty cool.

[dabber]

Once it dies it can create a no go area, that's pretty cool.

I don't think the damage is enough to justify that conclusion and I don't think the area covered is big enough to be highly significant. A big infantry block won't be willing to center itself on the marker, but they won't have any qualms about being a couple inches from the marker.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Without the range or damage of a comet that's true, but in a combined combat, having it blow up every turn while they're still fighting what's in their front could be a real pain.
Could be/should be's shouldn't be part of a tactical discussion though ^_^'

[Atlantic]

I don't know.

You can potentially fly the Phoenix 20 inches every turn and do damage all over the board.

You can do it twice per turn with 2 dice walk between worlds. That will add up fast.

You can feasibly keep it out of combat with out a whole lot of trouble.

I think he will end up being pretty useful

[Ptolemy]

Good game and a hard-earned win against a tenacious opponent!

Why did you warn your opponent off of casting Savage Beast?

Friendly game, new book. Just wanted to remind him that he was making a bad mistake. In a tournament, I wouldn't have said a thing.

I don't know.

You can potentially fly the Phoenix 20 inches every turn and do damage all over the board.

You can do it twice per turn with 2 dice walk between worlds. That will add up fast.

You can feasibly keep it out of combat with out a whole lot of trouble.

I think he will end up being pretty useful

Whether or not Walk between Worlds does this is debateable.

I don't want to spend 225 rare points on a unit that stays out of combat and delivers a single Piercing Bolts per turn. Particularly in Rare. Against 10 ranks of clanrats the average wounds is about 7.59 wounds. For that, I'll take a large unit of sisters (16) and let them do the same average damage from my side of the board.

Once it dies it can create a no go area, that's pretty cool.

I don't think the damage is enough to justify that conclusion and I don't think the area covered is big enough to be highly significant. A big infantry block won't be willing to center itself on the marker, but they won't have any qualms about being a couple inches from the marker.

This.

@ Tethlis

- The cav bus is probably as good as you can make one. Will I stay with it? Depends. Gonna try all my ideas first.

- Frostheart is definitely in from now on. Flamespyre is benched.

- WLs are up next in an Anointed on Phoenix list.

- Skycutters are a fluff choice, I love the models, so i'm shoe horning them in.

@ all

Thanks for the interest, I'll post my next test list up tonight.

[Caradryal]

Thanks for the bat rep mate.

It's the first bat chron rep I've read with a list from the new book and it's certainly helped see what our new units are capable of.

Looking forward to seeing how the WL's, Frostheart and Loremaster pan out.

[vespacian1]

So bear with me, because I haven't done the math on this, but I feel I have to defend the flamespyre as I've used it quite successfully in 2 games already.
What the Flamespyre brings to the table:
Target saturation: I had a combined ogres O&G army unload all of their artillery at this thing over multiple turns, because it was positioned to wake all over a 10 ranked night goblin unit. The fear this model inspires in infantry armies is amazing!
Speed: With fly it can fulfill the role of a great eagle in its free-time while it wakes all over the place.
Tough: With toughness 5, 5 wounds, a ward save and resurrection it doesn't go down easy
Combo-charge: Unlike a chaff unit, a flamespyre can be a legitimate multi-charge threat. Unlike a GE or reavers, which I am reticent to charge with as they usually end up costing me as much combat res as they added(due to wounds) I was confidently able to put the fire bird in the flank or rear of reasonably tough units. Although it's damage output against non-infantry is almost non-existent, st3 and 4 opponents will struggle to put more than 1 wound on the thing.
After-death explosion: This didn't apply in either of my games, but I could see this doing some work in certain situations.
Flaming: Now that we have to pay an absurd amount for flaming shooting(I believe maidens are our only options here), this guy can be huge against regen troops. I used mine to great affect, flaming a unit of trolls in preparation for my shooting/magic phase.

Now all that being said, I can see this guy not pulling his weight in a big way against certain match-ups, Brets are a great example. But I think generally he is worth the inclusion. It is important to note that I also am taking a Frost Phoenix(or Frost Dragon for my fluff purposes), if I had to choose one or the other it would be frost every time.