Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1591 Post by Curu Olannon »

.::. Battle Report: High Elves vs Tomb Kings .::.

Like I said, this will be a brief rundown. First of all, the lists (roughly):

2x Archmage, 1x Shadow, 1x Death.
Death RGoH BSB + fighty Noble
2x26 Archers
26 WL + 21 PG
1 Eagle

2 Liche High Priests
1 Liche Priest
3x20 Archers
3 Chariots
2x5 Horse Archers
Warsphinx
2x4 Necroknights
Necrosphinx
2x Catapult
Casket

Image
Armies deployed and ready to fight!

.::. Early Game .::.

With my +2 to go first I managed to grab first turn. The initial moves saw the Archers move into range of the sphinx while the infantry moved up on respective flanks, creating no-go zones. My first magic phase was contained entirely, though at the cost of his scroll this didn`t bother me. Shooting wounded his sphinx twice. He then proceeded to move up with both sphinxes, necroknights and chariots while the horse archers blocked one unit of elite infantry each. I let a Spirit Leech through on my AM (who was with Lions because of Ironcurse Icon thus not having 2+ ward), which did nothing and helped me contain his phase. The artillery pounded my Archers and took a heavy toll, but panic was passed.

Image

T2 saw the infantry clear away chaff while the sole eagle moved to interrupt the Warsphinx. It wasn`t needed however as the combined effort of the magic + archers killed both sphinxes. His T2 saw the chariots try and wrap around on the East to threaten my soft center. I replied in my T3 with moving the 2+ re-rollable save Noble in front of them: on average I can expect to win this combat and if I die I will at least keep them another turn away. The PG kept pushing towards his lines and with no sphinxes left they proved a great threat. We both knew that since they were outside of BSB range it could make or break the game, so I focused on dispelling D&D on them and he shot them up with skulls of the foe (very few died, 4+ ward is insane) but luckily I passed LD8 when needed.

Image

Image

.::. Middle Game .::.

Eventually he decided to play one unit of knights against the PG and one against the WL. I frankly don`t see what he could`ve done differently, with the sphinxes gone and the PG in a dominating position he had to make a reply.

Image

I charged one unit with PG + Archers, getting off Mindrazor due to powerscroll and utterly destroying them. The Lions eventually chewed through the other unit, but this took the rest of the game since Strange did what he could to support them magically, whereas I focused on killing his characters and aiding the PG instead. The noble won against the Chariots which freed up the entire board for me. As Strange constantly dispelled my dual cast of Spirit Leech, his casters survived until the end game.

Image

.::. End Game .::.

With a unit of Necroknights gone, Strange tried to block the PG from getting to his main bunker with using the others as speedbumps. This didn`t work out too well, as I could finally prioritize Spirit Leech and I thus killed his Hierophant. This killed both catapults instantly and slowly crumbled the Archers.

Image

In the last turn of the game I charged his second-to-last unit with the PG, inflicting lots of casualties and eventually crumbling them all. He was left with 2 Archers or something like that. I had lost 3-4 PG, 15 Lions and a unit of Archers as well as the Eagle. Overall I was roughly 2000 points ahead, making it a clear 20-0 victory to the High Elves!

Image

Image
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1592 Post by Curu Olannon »

I`ve just started painting up the not-completely-finished-Archers and I must say they really look a whole lot better now. Steel trays have arrived so I can hopefully finish magnetized bases prior to the tournament as well (should save loads of time). In total, I have roughly 20 Archers I should fix to a better standard, 8 Archers I need to paint from scratch and 21 Lions which I have to buy, assemble and paint. The characters are luckily all accounted for: I will simply use Swordmasters models as BSB / Noble. I might have to brush up on these a little bit (as well as the Drake acting as an Eagle).

Regarding the new Lions, I`m looking to create a 4-model unit filler and a 2-model unit filler (2x2 and 2x1). I don`t want to replicate what I`ve done from before (statues, live lion and weaponry), so I`m looking for ideas here. Some kind of a symbol/rock or something? Preferably something I don`t need to buy ;)

Pictures will be up along with the painting. Obviously the WoC models are not receiving much attention these days, but I`m really looking forward to continuing with them as well :)
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Axiem
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1593 Post by Axiem »

Are you only looking for unit fillers for your Lions? For your Phoenix Guard the obvious choice is, well, a phoenix. Reaper makes a fairly decent one and it's not too expensive and should paint up nicely, especially considering your army's color scheme. Something like:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/211417?browseid=4759754
http://www.coolminiornot.com/114966?browseid=4759754

You could also just do some flames, or lava like in the second pic, and that would match the black and red, not to mention the your Dragon and Eagles.

The other obvious choice is a section of pine trees (or even ruined columns) to match the slate on their bases now and add to the wooded theme, which you can make fairly easily if you're on a budget with pipe cleaners, wire, and a bit of flocking.

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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1594 Post by Curu Olannon »

Thanks for the input! Unfortunately, PG are out and I don`t have a lot of time to order stuff, therefore the Phoenix has to go. I`ll definitely keep it in mind for later projects though, it`s a great model and I think it`ll go well with the theme.

As for flame and lava, there is so much black and red already. I think it`s better to add something in a different colour, preferably something to stand out. With the current Lion unit, the White Lion really stands out due to its bright nature (it`s almost completely white). The same could be achieved with e.g. a rock. I might just go down a road like this.

I have some pine trees available actually, could just see how this looks though to be honest they`re rather tall so, yeah ;)

---

Yesterday I began considering vital aspects of the army. Since I`m fairly new to this style of play and I don`t have much experience with the list itself (in fact I`ve never played with the newest variant), I thought it would be good to check a couple of key things. As always, I`d appreciate input here so any and all comments are welcome:

5 drops. Typical length: 10 (WL) + 10 (Arch) + 10 (Arch) + 5 models => 35 models + 3” width => 31” width ~ roughly half the table. Can be compressed to 10 + 5 + 5 + 5, which reduces the width to 27".

Typical spells and chance of success:

Shadow
- Miasma 2D6 (97%)
- Miasma boosted 2D6 (72%)
- Miasma boosted 3D6 (95%)
- Withering 3D6 (74%)
- Withering 4D6 (95%)
- Withering boosted 4D6 (76%)
- Pit 3D6 (63%)
- Pit 4D6 (90%)
- Mindrazor 4D6 (56%)
- Mindrazor Power Scroll 2D6 (83%)
- Mindrazor Power Scroll 3D6 (98%)

Death
- Spirit Leech 2D6 (97%)
- Spirit Leech boosted 2D6 (72%)
- Spirit Leech boosted 3D6 (95%)
- Spirit Leech Noble 2D6 (72%)
- Spirit Leech Noble 3D6 (95%)
- Spirit Leech Noble Boosted 3D6 (74%)
- Spirit Leech Noble Boosted 4D6 (95%)
- Doom and Darkness 2D6 (72%)
- Doom and Darkness 3D6 (95%)
- Doom and Darkness boosted 3D6 (74%)
- Doom and Darkness boosted 4D6 (95%)
- Purple Sun 4D6 (84%)

This confirms my change from 3D6 + 2D6 SL to 4D6 and 3D6 as standard: on average you are 50-50 to get both casts of SL through if you spend 3 + 2 D6. Not very reliable, especially not when my magic strategy revolves around drawing scrolls early. While adding a dice increases the chance of miscasting, it also makes it harder to dispel, generally making the rest of the phase more flexible (provided that a dispel attempt is made).

Key things to note:
- Purple sun average travelling distance is 15”

High variance, but still good to know.
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rusty
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1595 Post by rusty »

For WL unit fillers I'd recommend this (From MAS I believe):
link

For free/cheap, build a elven waystone, either from styrofoam (XPS), or buying some glass/crystal from a suitable store. Mount on a 40 mm base.
Image
Image
Should be quick and easy to build.


How do you calculate the chance of success for casting a spell? And what do the bell curve looks like :wink: ?


Smart move calculating your deployment space. Have you created a typical deployment sequence and relative placement yet?
Will you deploy centrally? Max refused flank? What if the enemy has a shooting advantage and you have to advance? What if there's a big terrain piece splitting the deployment zone, or a hilll blocking shooting lanes in front? And so on :)


I've tried imaginig how my ogres will handle your army, and it's not pretty. Your army puts on a tremendous pressure for me to engage fast, but frontal charging full-strength lions is not an attractive prospect. Rocks and hard places. Fingers crossed I don't draw you at Crusade :wink:
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1596 Post by Curu Olannon »

I use a cheat sheet. It was created by a guy called Aaron Chapman (google it and a pdf should come up pretty fast ;) ). I`ve also written a generic program which can be used to simulate anything in warhammer, because I don`t have the math skills to work out the probabilities in various intricate cases. Besides, even if I had the skills, making a program and running a billion simulations is faster :)

Typical deployment sequence - no. With 5 drops, there won`t be many variations. I suppose the Eagle will likely go down first or second just about always.

A central placement can be good if I have to advance, but generally a flank is easier. With a flank, a unit of Archers can hold the extreme flank with Lions next to them - with the table edge being on one flank of the Archers and the Lions on the other they`re virtually impossible to flank. As such, I assume I`ll typically play flank-archers-lions-archers-lions.

If I`m up against a superior shooting force, we`ve only talking about Dwarfs in my opinion. Perhaps also Empire. While there are only S3 shots here, there`s 2 casts of LD9 Spirit Leech with an MR2 along as well, which nobody but Dwarfs can afford to leave alone, in my opinion.

As for facing Ogres, this list actually does have a couple of neat options. Purple Sun, The Withering and Spirit Leech are obviously very strong, but with Ogres being forced to rush ahead I think I can set up nicely for the inevitable combats, which I find crucial against them. If you get charged by a full-strength bus in the Ogre players` turn, nothing we (HE) have can stand their ground, not even 30 Lions. This is because of the combined might of the impact hits, the Ogre magic phase and the the sheer volume of a fully loaded Ironguts Bus.

Terrain pieces blocking zones - not a problem as far as I`ve seen from the ETC pieces. Same for hills. At worst I have to move one or max. two units for a single turn. Deploying 5-wide, reforming and taking up an ideal position doesn`t cost a whole lot.
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Dark Reaper
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1597 Post by Dark Reaper »

Curu Olannon wrote: Key things to note:
- Purple sun average travelling distance is 15”

High variance, but still good to know.
Extremely high variance. I think it would be better to think of it as 5/6 chance of hitting what you are aiming for if within 6", 2/3 within 12" and so on. You shouldn't really be too worried about a misfire, so your chance of hitting is actually the only real consideration you have to take when casting this spell, in addition to meeting the casting cost of course. Part of the reason the Nurgle DP is so insanely strong is his ability to cast point blank PS with no real risk of misfiring. (It still hits at least some of the intended targets and has a very little chance of killing him.)

Your magic phase is extremely scary. Against Ogres for example, withering, pit and purple sun are all must-stop spells and your opponent might very well only have the dice to stop one of them. I found what works best against gutstars is simply reducing their numbers significantly before they enter combat. When they are in combat, the characters will often jump in front and actually killing ogres becomes very hard. You seem to have every tool you need to achieve this goal though. Looking forward to seeing how the army will do. :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1598 Post by rusty »

How does spirit leech work now? If you target a ld8 hero i a unit with ld 9 lord, do the target test on 8?

There is no downside to chucking a PS at a gutstar from the front. If it fails to reach, it is still a perfect roadblock.
Atritting the gutstar is indeed the best choice. It will have 20-30 expensive T4 wounds you can shoot off. Just beware the Maw banner.

Scouts. You can hold them off by placing your eagle on the lone flank, but that will lose you the eagles vs shades, skinks etc. Do you care?

Being outdeployed. Lots of armies will put down everything of value after you have finished deploying. Again, I'm not sure if you need to care.

Thanks for the cheat sheet :). Could I have a copy of the program?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1599 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Dark Reaper - good point, I will update the chart to reflect the chance of going a certain distance, much more useful.

As for reducing Gutstars, I have a lot of tools indeed. Also Miasma is superstrong against them in melee, since it guarantees that they hit Lions on 5's. The only problem here is making sure that I have the magic phase when the big fight(s) happen and all should be good :)

@rusty - spirit leech uses the model's printed LD value according to the ETC I believe. Thus, an LD8 model uses LD8 in relation with Spirit Leech - whether it is the provider or the receiver doesn`t matter. Maw banner can be a problem, but do you reckon people will take it over e.g. +1LD and +1M? PS still works fine.

Scouts - indeed a problem, due to a lack of magic missiles. However soulblight, withering, miasma and 50+ Archers should be ok here. I might lose a single Eagle, but it`s no biggie. Regardless I don`t see big scouts as a big issue, virtually only LM run it (well, maybe Beastmen) and in this case the matchup isn`t that bad.

As for being outdeployed, the biggest problem is if I miss the flank entirely, meaning I deploy in one corner and my opponent in the other. If this is an issue, I need to deploy centrally, preferably with Archers 5-wide and Lions on one flank each to maximise flexibility. Good point! I need to spend some time practicing deploys with this army, might just use Battle Chronicler and even write a little tactica about it.

Cheat sheet is awesome sheet! I thought I had sent it to you previously. The program only runs from the IDE, are you familiar with Eclipse or IntelliJ?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1600 Post by rusty »

Miasma also neutralizes Maneaters snipers, which otherwise is a threat to your mages.

OnG can outshoot you easily. They can hang way back and pelt you with artillery and tapdance of gork. . They also have plenty of drops. Please read a maxed out OnG list, it's dangerous and very annoying in the right hands.

I have eclipse, were just waiting for motivation to relearn it :wink: .
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1601 Post by Curu Olannon »

Orcs and Goblins are admittedly a huge problem, but I only see one guy registered with them thus far. They`re not very popular around here, and their usual army composition is strong against just about any HE list anyways, so not much I can do to mitigate this.

Will get the program sorted out in a few days. You familiar with source control management tools like github?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1602 Post by John Rainbow »

On the subject of unit fillers, I am creating something similar for my WL units at the moment. If you have a spare 40mm sq. base lying around then you can simply put two guys on it with a rock or the lion head thing from the kit and you're good to go. You get 4 WLs for two actual models that way.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1603 Post by rusty »

The one greenskin player is also justly famed for his trolls. 2*8+3*1 usually. Happy hunting with PS/PoS.

I don't know github, will have to learn :).
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1604 Post by HERO »

Prince on Star Dragon with:
- Vambraces of Defense
- Enchanted Shield
- Dragon Armour
- Sword of Might
- The Other Trickster`s Shard
- => 624
Amulet of Light perhaps? Makes the Star Dragon magical as well.

Prince
Star Dragon
Halberd
Armor of Caledor
Vambraces of Defense
Amulet of Light

To my memory that's 621.

Do you have a link to your mathhammer calculator? It was mentioned in another thread and I'm looking for one.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1605 Post by rusty »

The Greenskin list:
Savage orc great shaman: lvl 4, magic resistance 3 item, earthing rod: 275

Black orc big boss: bsb, standard of disipline: 125
Orc shaman: dispel scroll: 90
Goblin big boss: wolf, tormentor sword, enchanted shield, light armour: 59
Goblin big boss: wolf, warrior bane, charmed shield, light armour: 59
Goblin big boss: wolf, spear, light armour, shield: 53
Goblin big boss: wolf, spear, light armour, shield: 53

36 Savaged orc big 'uns: additional hand weapons, standard, musician: 416
20 Night goblins: short bows, musician, 2 fanatics: 120
20 Night goblins: short bows, musician, 2 fanatics: 120

8 Trolls: 280
8 Trolls: 280
6 Trolls: 210

Rock lobber: 85
Rock lobber: 85
Doom diver: 80
Doom diver: 80
Mangler squig: 65
Mangler squig: 65
---------------
2600

Even scarier than I remember [-o<
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1606 Post by SpellArcher »

Why no Shrunken Head I wonder?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1607 Post by Curu Olannon »

Currently painting Archers and reading High Elf + Tau rumours (my two main fractions, though I haven`t played WH40K in years I might give it a go if the new codex is decent). I realize that I don`t have time to complete things 100% prior to Crusade (unless a miracle occurs and I get a lot more spare time than I believe I`ll have) so I`m focusing on the big impact things (e.g. leaving details and weaker colours without highlights etc). Will get some pictures up soon :)

@John Rainbow - good idea, but unsure if I have the models. A rock could also work on the same base.

@rusty - doesn`t look too bad, to be honest. A lot of shooting, but sniping off the army`s main stuff shouldn`t be too hard, in my opinion. Also, withering and purple sun.

@HERO - a little late to the party, I`ve ditched the Dragon for now ;) The "calculator" people talk about is nothing more than a java program, will get it up on github so everyone familiar with a proper IDE can download and run their own simulations. One problem of doing this though is that I can`t upload it with true model stats, which makes it a bit cumbersome. Will have to think on it. However, there`s also a great cheat sheet around - google Aaron Chapman Warhammer :)

@SpellArcher - my guess is it`s simply missing, no reason not to include it!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1608 Post by Curu Olannon »

Just played a game against a highly competent WoC player. Short summary / report will be up tonight :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1609 Post by Curu Olannon »

.::. Battle Report - High Elves vs Warriors of Chaos .::.

This was a practice game which featured two different set of comp. rules, which favoured the WoC somewhat. I was ok with this beforehand as I don't think it hugely impacts the way the game plays: regardless I need to play with this list as I'm still finding my ground with defensive High Elves.

I ran:

Archmage level 4, Death, General, Loremaster`s Cloak, Dispel Scroll, Firebane Gem => 325
Archmage level 4, Shadow, Power Scroll, Ironcurse Icon => 300
Death, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Charmed Shield, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour => 174
BSB Noble, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone => 143
=> 942

26 Archers, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flames (321)
27 Archers, Musician and Champion (312)
=> 633

26 White Lions, Full Command, Amulet of Light, Banner of Swiftness => 450
21 White Lions, Full Command, Skeinsliver, Banner of Sorcery => 420
=> 870

Great Eagle => 50
=> 50
==> 2495

He ran:
DP Slaanesh, Lvl 4 Slaanesh, Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, Dragonbane Gem, Fly, Chaos Armour, Breath Weapon, Soul Feeder, +1 Spell and improved channelling
BSB on Daemonic Mount, 2+/3++, re-roll 1's. Great Weapon.
Lvl 1 Scrollcaddy

19 Nurgle Warriors with Great Weapons and FC, +1M
1 Chariot
2x5 Warhound w/Vanguard

2 Gorebeast Chariots

4 Skullcrushers, musi + std.

.::. Pre-game .::.

Having played a bit of Warriors myself lately I know this list setup quite well. As I told my opponent, this was a bit of a deja vu from my last Warriors game, although this time around I found myself on the other end. I knew that putting pressure on his DP early on would be vital, so he couldn't just do as he pleased. Whereas my WoC Dragon has to be careful of Lions, a Daemon Prince can afford to be very in your face if it's at full wounds with Soul Feeder and Breath Weapon.

Magic saw me get 3 snipes from death + D&D. Shadow gave me Withering, Miasma, Pit and Mindrazor. He got everything he wanted from Slaanesh and took Fireball for his Lvl 1.

Deployment-wise I knew I had to anchor Archers to one table edge and hold the refused flank with Lions. My Archers wouldn't have a whole lot to do this game, against these kind of WoC lists they're pretty much useless barring static combat resolution and receiving Mindrazor.

To this end I ended up with a reasonably decent starting point: Skullcrushers opposite Archers and Warriors opposite big Lions with chariots in the center:

Image

.::. Early Game .::.

I grabbed first turn due to my +2 and took up positions 23" away to start sniping. The first phase saw me nuke his scrollcaddy (no point in targeting the DP before the scroll is gone), which I managed to accomplish as he took the chance instead of burning the scroll. The Archers put a wound on the Crushers as well. His T1 saw him move up and cast Phantasmagoria on the Lions (3D6 LD, discard lowest). I let this through because I didn't mind them fleeing since I couldn't run off anyways and could need a more defensive position. The Hellcannon proceeded to score a hit and obliterated lots of Elves. I passed panic.

Image

My T2 started off with an IF SL from the Lvl 1 Noble. This killed a Tuskgor Chariot, but I got a '4' for miscast result and the big blast blew away a LOT of Lions. With both Lions severely reduced, he simply pushed everything forward at max speed in his T2, nuking the biggest Lions with Hellcannon + breath weapon yet again. I burned my scroll here as well as my Lions were in dire straits.

Image

With the situation quickly becoming desperate I had to act. I charged the 13 Lions into the 19 Nurgle Warriors, knowing I needed help to have a fighting chance. At this point all the characters were with the other Lions, leaving the Archers alone to face the Daemon Prince. The goal for this turn was to either hurt the Daemon Prince significantly, or help the Lions sufficiently to allow them to win combat (his Warriors were in a wood and thus not steadfast, potentially a game-breaker). He prioritized dispelling Miasma (the only spell which would affect the combat) and his DP took 2 wounds from the Death snipes in return.

Combat was miserable though as the Lions killed but a handful for losing 9 out of 13 in return. I held on stubborn, at least locking him in place. With the DP having lost half wounds, a power scrolled mindrazor could still save the day. I had spent the Eagle to delay the Crushers for another couple of turns (angling them off the table).

Image

.::. Mid-game .::.

The Daemon Prince went into the Archers and Hellcannon fails rampage. Crushers charge the Eagle, I hold. We move to combat and I challenge DP with Archer champ. He kills it, but no Soul Feeding and still 2W left. The Lions die to Warriors + chariot, who decided to support.

Image

In my T4 I'm hoping for a small magic phase to force Mindrazor through, however I get the opposite as box cars are rolled. I try and make an impact with Death Snipes instead, hoping that I'll have another attempt before the game's over: 2 casts of Spirit Leech (both let through) fail to cause a single wound on his Chariots. I am left with trying to cast Mindrazor just hoping for IF, but I can't get it and he dispels it (no point in power scrolling when he has 6DD). He then proceedes to kill a bunch of Archers. His T4 sees a chariot aid the DP while the BSB charges the Lions + 4 (!) characters. The BSB is challenged out by the Guardian. He loses combat by 1, but holds. The Archers evaporate and the DP gains a wound.

Image

.::. End Game .::.

The situation is becoming worse and worse and I know that in order to have a chance at this game, I need to get rid of the DP and the Skullcrushers in one turn. Easier said than done. The Archers charge the Skullcrushers. Magic sees him again get a ridiculous amount of DD (7, this time) and he prioritizes Mindrazor again. This time however the DP dies to Death Snipes, having faced a massive 5 hits from Caress (he had previously shaken off 4 Spirit Leeches on this model alone throughout the game, the first two wounds were also caused by Caress). Again I fail to get IF with Mindrazor and he dispels it. The Archers manage two wounds and lose 16 in return. He runs them down. In combat, his BSB wins but I hold. In his T5 "the rest" come crashing into the now 5-strong Lions + characters: in total 2 chariots, 13 Warriors and a BSB. Between the impact hits alone I'm left with but a couple of wounds. The BSB kills a chariot before he wipes me completely.

I had killed 2 chariots (~240), a caddy (~200), the DP (~650) and a unit of Warhounds (~40) for a total of ~1100-1200. However I had lost everything and he had maximum bonus points ~ 2775. A 0-20 loss, sadly.

.::. Evaluation .::.

The one thing which definitely hurt me by far the most in this game was the loss of all the Lions early on. Losing so many that early means that he no longer has to be afraid of them and can just march up full speed. When they cannot deny areas of interest, the game devolves to a matter of luck for the HE side: if the mages can work wonders the day might be saved. If not, however, things are likely to turn really sour, really fast. It's ironic that killing 10 T3 models can pretty much win the entire game, but that's definitely what happened here. I'm not saying I would've won if the Hellcannon had missed T1, but it would've changed the game entirely. The miscast which reduced my second unit as well sure didn't help me out.

Playing against a lighter comped army is of course a disadvantage, but I don't feel it made much of a difference in this game. Depending on his choice for the DP he might not have been able to place it so close to the Lions T2 and thus lose out on flaming them as well. Regardless, this is not why I lost so it doesn't matter.

Death is high variance indeed. The problem is when things go bad and this variance is not in my favour, of course ;) Normally, I can reduce variance by aiding the ranged threat with Withering and Pit. However in this matchup there are no good targets for either (chariots and DP are too well armoured and there's I5+ across the table, save for the Hellcannon which was too far away).

Playing against Warriors rather than with them showed me how terrifying their new book can be. While I don't consider it OP or even particularly hard to deal with (for HE), they have some amazing synergy between units (Slaanesh DP + crushers for example) and they're fast, heavy-armoured and hit like a ton of bricks. While lots of what I'm talking about now didn't actually happen during the game, it was always the chance of it happening, which forced my hand. I also believe that Dual-DP is very, very strong in the ETC setting: dual-dp, dual-crushers + chimera and your opponent won't know what to do. The Chariots however were largely underwhelming, it'll be interesting to see if people can actually make these work in any significant numbers. I think their biggest drawback is that the other powerhouses rely on speed to do their thing, which the Chariots simply cannot keep up with early on.

This type of HE-vs-WoC matchup I think boils down to what happens with the Hellcannon, Lions, Mages and DP early on. If any of these suffer a big loss, the dynamic will change instantly. My opponent realized this, had his units in place and played perfectly the moment an opportunity presented itself. Likewise, had I been able to kill of the DP say, T2, I could've played the rest of the game quite differently.

Thanks for reading, and as always C&C appreciated :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1610 Post by Fithvael »

Hi Curu,

It’s always a good day when a new battle report of you shows up.

Unfortunately you got pretty badly mauled in this one. As you already described, the single Hellcanon hit changed the course of the battle dramatically. This however, is something that can happen pretty easily in all of your future battles because of the way your list is build. Most armies will have something at their disposal to thin out your Lions significantly before combat time arrives. Basically any army with a big killer spell / multiple magic missiles / halfway decent shooting / chariot charges etc. can put a dent in them and finish them off later. I recon your archers won’t be targeted much by smart opponents unless their goal is to outshoot you in later turns.

Having said that, I would much rather see you play another style of army that is less eggs and more baskets. The dragon list, imo, was a lot more versatile and interesting to play with. However, I do applaud you for sticking with this list and trying your best to make it work. How do you like the playstyle? To me it seems pretty boring because of the lack of maneuvering and units. Basically you just shoot and magic and hope for the best.

Have you thought about which armies you will most likely face in your upcoming tourney and tailoring your list specifically to defeating those? If there will be a lot of WoC armies like the one you just faced, you might be up for a hard time with the current list.

Anyhow, I hope you will do well at your upcoming event and will write up the Battle reports so that the rest of us can learn from your experience as I have been doing the past few weeks.

Best,

Fithvael
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1611 Post by Curu Olannon »

Hey Fithvael, thanks for the feedback! I haven't had much time for Warhammer lately (playing, that is). Hopefully will get a couple of games before the tournament, I also have a lot of painting to do (6 archers + 21 lions at the very least have to be completed).

As for killing Lions, yes a lot of armies can do this. However, I have an MR5 guy to protect them and they have a 3+ AS vs shooting. Getting mauled this badly is primarily a problem against really heavy hitters, which there aren't a whole lot of out there (OK and WoC, mainly). As for the Archers, well our core is plain useless in most situations. The Archers are the best we can do ;)

I could definitely have played another style, but I've decided to try this for once, just to see how it plays. I think it's interesting because deployment and magic matter so much, which I'm not used to. The movement of this army is largely dictated by the starting point. I don't find it boring to play, at least not yet :)

The armies I'm most likely to face are WoC and TK, according to the latest registration info. In general, WoC won't be as tough as this one, which lets me put a lot more pressure on him early on. I also believe there will be chariot spam lists and troll lists, neither of which I fear particularly much. TK I know I can handle.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1612 Post by Curu Olannon »

New day, new game, new report!

.::. Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen .::.

After yesterday's terrible defeat there was no doubt that I need more practice. Today I got to face Lizardmen, for the first time in ages. Luckily, this game did not fare as poorly as the one yesterday. Read on to find out more :)

Lists

Archmage level 4, Death, General, Loremaster`s Cloak, Dispel Scroll, Firebane Gem => 325
Archmage level 4, Shadow, Power Scroll, Ironcurse Icon => 300
Death, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Charmed Shield, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour => 174
BSB Noble, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone => 143
=> 942

26 Archers, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flames (321)
27 Archers, Musician and Champion (312)
=> 633

26 White Lions, Full Command, Amulet of Light, Banner of Swiftness => 450
21 White Lions, Full Command, Skeinsliver, Banner of Sorcery => 420
=> 870

Great Eagle => 50
=> 50
==> 2495

Slann Loremaster Shadow
Slann +1D6 when casting, Scroll, Death
BSB 1+ re-rollable on Cold One, Sword of Might
Saurus on Cold One, tanky-tank

2x32 Saurus, FC
3x10 Skinks
10 Skinks (cohort)

3 Salamanders
2x3 Terradons

.::. Pre-game thoughts and deployment .::.

I haven't played Lizardmen in ages and I was just glad that this list didn't sport a million scouting skinks, as this makes life hard for High Elves. The plan was to make a refused flank, get the Lions in position and chuck sniping spells at saurus heroes, debuff at whatever needed it. Killing the Slanns is pretty much impossible with 4+ ward and 5 wounds.

Deployment was good, he opted for a central deployment and I refused a flank. This left the flaming Archers alone to dominate the East, which I immediately realized would be of importance in the later turns of the game:

Image

Spells saw me get Miasma, Enfeebling, Withering and Pit as well as Spirit Leech, Caress, Doom and Darkness and Purple Sun. He got Spirit Leech, Caress, D&D, Fate of Bjuna. The Noble defaulted to Spirit Leech. Rolling for first turn again saw my +2 grant me the initiative (we tied twice and I won the third).

.::. Early Game .::.

I reformed the big Lions to 2 ranks, the latter just 4-wide. This got them in position for sniping the BSB, which the Deathmage promptly took advantage of. The flaming Archers moved up 5" and the last Archers reformed to stand wide, ready to lay down fire when he advanced. Magic gave us a 9v4 split: I started off with a high cast of Spirit Leech which he let through. He rolled higher than me, no damage done. The Noble then tried the same with the same result. I then failed to cast Caress.

Image

In his T1 my opponent realized I had made a big mistake: the Archmage was on the extreme flank of the Lions and the Terradons were just in my flank arc. I hadn't even considered this, lesson learned for sure! They charged my Lions, needing 8+ to make it which he duly got. Magic came up 3v2: he started off with a 1D6 Soulblight, which was boosted with another D6 from the Slann's power. I dispelled, and he then managed to cast Withering on 2(!)D6, which I scrolled: I couldn't have him wound me even easier. Combat saw the Noble Make Way! to the second rank. He managed 3 wounds and the general stepped up: managing a 4th! This left but a single terradon, which only caused 1W to the Archmage. Phew! I combat reformed to Horde, leaving the center open for the smaller Lions. A small risk for my opponent with potentially huge gains, but I got lucky.

Image

I then made a big mistake as I advanced with the Sorcery Lions. I didn't need them far up at all and should've instead gone backward. Magic saw me get a big phase and I wanted to use it to double-cast Shadow, moving the Death Archmage out of the Lions by way of double Smoke and Mirrors (to get the BSB in front arc again, my own BSB was with the Sorcery Lions). I managed to cast Miasma and Enfeebling, however the Death Archmage's Spirit Leech was dispelled and I failed to cast Caress on 2D6. The Terradon died and I reformed.

Image

My opponent moved the heroes to my flank, along with what seemed like a million Skinks. The Salamanders took the house... Magic 10v6 saw him open with a Spirit Leech on the Shadow Archmage, which I had to let through: 1W was the net result and I was happy he didn't perish. I then dispelled Caress and he got Withering through on the Sorcery Lions, for -1T. It was then time for the Salamanders to open up and the Lions were in perfect range: when they were done the Lions were down to 8 remaining. I passed panic, but my combat power was severely reduced and I had yet to impress his Saurus at all.

.::. Midgame .::.

I placed all characters with the big Lions and retreated them and the hill Archers to better positions. The sorcery Lions marched up to the house, just outside of it where nothing could charge me. Magic saw us get 12v5: I started off with a Spirit Leech on the BSB which he let through. Again, no effect. I then cast it again, which he dispelled. I then tried Caress on 3D6, failing to cast. The last cast was Pit of Shades, which scattered off. Shooting put 2W on his Salamanders.

Image

In his turn, he opted to move the Salamanders out of the house to shoot at the big, juicy Lions. His magic was 11v6, which resulted in a dead Eagle (IF SL): he rolled snake eyes for the result but luckily passed the 4+ to keep his Slann alive. 11 Saurus died. All panic tests were passed. Salamanders killed a few Lions, but this time he couldn't hit as well as the other Lions so all-in-all it wasn't that bad.

Image

My T4 saw me again fail to Spirit Leech him, this time his Salamanders (at this point I moved all characters away from the Lions, into the Archers). I failed to cause a single wound and gave up on Death, trying Withering instead which went off on a massive roll which he failed to dispel with his 5 dispel dice. The Salamanders were suddenly T1 and the Archers duly thanked their superiors for the help as they killed them all off. The sorcery Lions went into the house.

Image

.::. Endgame .::.

He moved the chaff in front of the Lions to block them off. I moved the characters to the other Archers: I was intending to cast Purple Sun through the house to hit the Saurus behind (the sorcery lions had been taken care of by Saurus). However, I rolled a miserable '2' for distance and it came up just short. My opponent then told me that if you cast a vortex like that and it hits e.g. a building, it goes through without actually hitting stuff. Thus my whole plan was pretty much pointless.

Image

I shot some chaff and he eventually charged the Lions with the Saurus heroes: one died and the BSB survived with a single wound left. The Lions ended the game with ~half models remaining. Magic was spectacularly unimpressive as neither of us managed anything useful for the last 2 turns. I tried to kill enough Saurus to get him below 25%, but without magical assistance the Archers simply weren't up to the task.

In the end then we had both lost very little of interest: I missed the Sorcery Lions and an Eagle (470 points), he missed 2x3 Terradons, 3 Salamanders and a Saurus Hero (571 points in total). The net result was thus a 10-10 draw.

Throughout the game I learned a number of things from character movement and building fighting rules to ETC reform. Lots of stuff I previously have never had the armies to care about, but my opponent was very patient and forgiving.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1613 Post by Stormie »

Interesting tactical game, I feel you were unlucky with your Spirit Leaches and boy do I know that feeling! I always consider a 10-10 or better to be a good result versus Lizardmen :)

I think Purple Sun might've worked how you wanted it to at the end, with a big roll. You roll the dice, move the vortex along as far it would go unimpeded, and then work out what's been hit. Then you move the vortex along the same path until it's 1" clear from other units (I'm not sure if it has to go past impassable terrain like buildings), but the stuff touched by this free move isn't affected. It's a rare case of GW making an FAQ that puts what's fair above what makes sense!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1614 Post by rusty »

Nice to see your skills put to the test against some very good players ;-)

Could you please say some more about the rulings you learned in the last game? It's a fair chance I don't know them either ( buildings, etc reform, character movement).

I wouldn't be disheartened from the WoC 0-20. That was high variance. However your army has much variance that one out of five games going haywire won't surprise.

The Lz game was interesting. The saurus surprised me. Did he say how he usually use them?
Army blog: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1615 Post by Zihark »

i curu i know the new book is coming up soon but as i am restarting fantasy still need a few games to get the hang of the rules changes and hopefully learn ow to play well. Wanting to run a dragon list mostly because I love the dragon models do you have any advice or tips also I ave no white lions so not sure what to use to defend my other units.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1616 Post by Curu Olannon »

Been a little while now, let me update you guys!

@Stormie - indeed Spirit Leech is hit or miss, which is what makes it great as a threat but unreliable when you need it.

@Rusty - despite the initial mistake ref. the mage, I think this was a very close-fought game. ETC buildings only allow 20 models to enter. Reforms, unlike pivots, are not virtual. Characters cannot slide inside a unit and then move out without losing movement from the slide, unlike what they can do when they initially join a unit.

@Zihark - Good luck with the Dragon :) I`m really looking forward to the new book!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1617 Post by Curu Olannon »

.::. 2D6 Crusade 2013 - Brief Summary .::.

I had a major accident with my second unit of Lions last weekend, so long story short I had to ditch my plan which was to attend the tournament with dual archmages (death + shadow), as this list cannot work without dual lion blocks. Thus, I ended up bringing nearly the exact same list I took last year: I just exchanged the Spears for Archers. I know this list is far from the best in the current meta, which truly has evolved immensely in the past 12 months and besides I haven`t played with it for ages (literally my last game with it was last year).

The field this year was a lot smaller and a lot tougher than last year. Top players scored as low as 17th place (out of 32 participants) and just about every point was hard-fought. It was a challenging experience and very interesting, though sadly with a new book incoming and a list not meant to handle today`s meta I can`t take much away from it.

I ended up placing 10th (both total points and battle points), with a BP score of 60-40. First game was against MSU Empire, which was very close-fought and even. Could easily have been 15-5 or 5-15. I was fairly happy with this one, some rusty play on my part but mostly ok, I managed to exploit a few good situations and my opponent played well. Second game was against DoC and this was just straight out a disaster. ETC FAQ cost me the Dragon to Purple Sun, which meant that I lost a lot more than I should have. Very bad play and the dice certainly didn`t help. Big loss. Third game was my only easy game all tournament: my opponent made a big mistake and then panicked, trying to save a hopeless situation. Huge win. Fourth game, I had a good strategy in a hard matchup but was powerless when my opponent got an amazing start. A mistake on my part mid-game cost me any chance of recovering and additionally he finished well. Big loss. Last game of the tournament was with an Empire variant slightly off what`s normal, with Life instead of Light and quite a bit of shooting. He did have cannon, STank and 2x4 Demis though. Very back and forth, in the end however it turned out very well for me. Huge win.

Semi-detailed reports will follow when I have the time :) It`s highly unlikely that I`ll have time for more games with the current book. Crusade was a nice wrap-up for the current version of the Dragonlord and thus, also this blog. I`ll get the games up and hopefully the new book will be interesting enough to start afresh with High Elves :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1618 Post by Curu Olannon »

I was hoping to start the tournament reports today but I simply haven`t had the time. Instead, I thought I`d post some results instead:

Format: name - army - battle points - painting points - total points (VP difference)
1. Martin Andre Røhme - Lizardmen 78 + 15 = 93 (5229)
2. Marius Brunborg - Daemons of Chaos 76 + 15 = 91 (6006)
3. Stian Engebretsen - Warriors of Chaos 74 + 15 = 89 (4398)
4. Hallvar Haugen - Orcs and Goblins 71 + 15 = 86 (3753)
5. Øystein Berg - Chaos Dwarfs 66 + 20 = 86 (3422)
6. Christian Brubakken - Tomb Kings 64 + 15 = 79 (2234)
7. Christopher Jacobsen - Daemons of Chaos 67 + 10 = 77 (3862)
8. Vidar Hemmingby - Empire 61 + 15 = 76 (2825)
9. Joakim Johnsen - Orcs and Goblins 61 + 15 = 76 (1965)
10. Jarle Svendsrud - High Elves 60 + 15 = 75 (2688)
11. Tor Erling Vassrusten - Ogre Kingdoms 55 + 20 = 75 (1092)
12. Aleksander Aasen - Warriors of Cheese 58 + 15 = 73 (1335)
13. Alksander Kleven - Warriors of Chaos 50 + 20 = 70 (-278)
14. Patrick Robinsson - Skaven 59 + 10 = 69 (1374)
15. Kyrre Øvrebø - Dark Elves 54 + 15 = 69 (472)

No. 1 was a typical dodgy-avoidy LZ army with tons of skinks and a slann which just about never engaged anything. Same guy I played 10-10 recently, though no saurus and lots more skinks.
No. 2 I`m not sure what fielded actually. GUO and Plague Beasts for sure though.
No. 3 Had a very interesting WoC build: Tzeentch Lord on Disc with Hellfire Sword. Disc is WB, thus making him cavalry. He had Tzeentch cavalry with "lol-strength" banner which gave him a very nice position for this character against artillery. Also, no armour saves and D3 wounds hurt the current meta winners so badly: MC and Plague Beasts alike hate this guy. Not sure about his hero setup but he had skillcrushers as support (obviously). Think it might`ve been a disc BSB as well.
No. 4 Played a very strong OnG army with lots of everything and 2x8 Trolls for combat blocks.
No. 5 Standard CD. Had a couple of hard matchups towards the end, he was close to the top from game 2 through 5.
No. 6 Shooty TK with 2x5 Necro Knights and Sphinxes. Unsure of specifics. Rusty beat him 15-5 or something to that effect, surprised he got such a strong placement in the end.
No. 7 I played this guy. Details will follow ;)
No. 8 I played this guy too. MSU Empire.
No. 9 Same as 4, pretty much. OnG seem to be catching on, many believe them to be the new filth.
No. 10 Well, my list was pretty much the same as last year with SD + Lion Horde + SM + Archers + Flying BSB
No. 11 Rusty took the Gutstar with Tyrant + Slaughtermaster + BSB with 3 + 2 Mournfang and an Ironblaster for support.
No. 12 Had single-prince with skillcrushers, chariot, M5 Warriors etc. Pretty standard.
No. 13 Played this guy, details will follow ;)
No. 14 Fairly standard Skaven list I believe. Didn`t pay much attention but HPA + Bell were around.
No. 15 I believe fielded a Dragon + Pendant BSB or something like that.

Overall I`m not surprised LZ did so well. Granted he is a very strong player, but I believe this particular type of build is very powerful. WoC and DoC did very well, though I`m surprised that the Disclord was only "discovered" by one guy. I must say, it`s a brilliant setup!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1619 Post by Stormie »

What do you mean by "discovered"..? I discussed that type of build with a friend a few weeks ago and was tempted, the main problem I'd have with it is that you have to reveal the Hellfire Sword at the end of your first turn (although I wouldn't be surprised if it gets forgotten, like every player I've ever gone against with the Felblade), although when you're on a Disc, it doesn't matter TOO much since you'll be picking your fights, mostly.

Reports please! :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1620 Post by Curu Olannon »

By discovered I mean taken. It`s quite obvious to me that while everyone jumped on the DP-bandwagon, the Disclord is the superior ETC choice. As far as ETC is concerned everything is open lists anyways so it doesn`t matter if you have to "reveal" it. While it`s flaming and thus has a couple of weaknesses, I think the no-AS and multi-wound more than make up for it given the 1+heavy meta and the huge amount of multi-wound models featuring in lists from Empire through VC and WoC to DoC and.... well yeah, just about everyone brings 1+ and multiple wounds to some degree :P
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