Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

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Fithvael
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1561 Post by Fithvael »

Yeey a new battle report incoming, happy day!

Having said that, I'm a bit afraid that you will have a hard time if he chooses not to advance at all and make you come to him. A few lucky (is it luck these days with warmachines? :o) hits on your archers or magic will severly demish your shooting output.

Then again, I have never played HE yet so I might be entirely wrong. Can't wait for the new book and getting my new army started!

Will be looking out for the report :)

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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1562 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ok, moving on with the report:

I managed to grab the first turn and ahead we went!

.::. High Elves Turn 1 .::.

I moved the Lions up aggressively, with the Swordmasters following somewhat slower behind. I elected to place all the characters in this unit for 2 reasons: 1 because of range (I could get within 24" of the Sphinx for example and provide a very nice bubble to valuable units) and 2 because I wanted him to shoot the Swordmasters to leave the Archers alone, which would improve my chances at keeping a ranged advantage.

Magic gave us an 11v5 split. I started off with a 3D6 boosted Spirit Leech from the BSB (74% chance of success) and failed. I then tried a 2D6 boosted Spirit Leech from the Archmage (72% chance of success) and failed again. I then cast a boosted version of Withering with 4D6 (66% chance of success) and failed. I didn't bother with the last dice. The reason I went for such an aggressive casting strategy was to minimize miscast probabilities while keeping him pressured with regards to defense. Had one of the Spirit Leeches gone through, I would've had a lot more options like 2D6 Miasma etc.

Shooting was a bit better: I put 2W on the Necrosphinx and 4W on a unit of Horse Archers, as well as a couple on the chariots. Still, a pretty poor T1.

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 1 .::.

His Chariots charge the Lions, needing 9+ to make it. He rolls 8 however and fails the charge. The rest of the army stay pretty much where they`re ahead, confident that their ranged capabilities can outmatch the High Elves. The Sphinxes however move up to get in better positions.

As we move to magic the split is 11v6. He starts off with a 3D6 movement reduction + dangerous terrain spell on the Lions, which I let through. I intend to make my magical presence known before I need them in combat anyway, so no harm done. I then dispel Doom and Darkness on 3V4 D6 and he fails to cast Light of Death on 2D6. Not quite as shabby as mine, but far from spectacular (relying on Death and being more than 24" away doesn`t really help his options).

However, as we move to shooting disaster strikes: a catapult kills enough Swordmasters to cause a panic test and I fail my re-rollable LD9 test (I rolled 11 twice so would`ve failed regardless, except if I`d had the Gem of Courage. The Swordmasters thus run away from a perfect position, bringing all 3 characters with them...

.::. High Elves Turn 2 .::.

I declare no charges and luckily pass the rally test. The rest of the army is pretty much stationary, apart from the large Archers who move up to become a new bunker soon for the characters. Having the Swordmasters flee was a terrible blow, it loses me 2 turns of full magical flexibility and allows him to stay back as opposed to making a counter-move.

I move the Eagles closer to the action and pray for a better magic phase this time. The split is 9v4, which is a very good result for me. I start off with a 3D6 Spirit Leech from the BSB again and get IF. The result causes no wounds on the Sphinx as I roll shitty and in return I lose my magic level. Luckily, no dice are lost. I then proceed to cast Spirit Leech on 3D6 with the Archmage and get a very high result - Strange fails to dispel with 3D6 + sceptre. This time it's his turn to roll shitty and the sphinx dies outright. I then cast 1D6 miasma on the Necrosphinx, which he fails to dispel, and this allows me to use the lore attribute to get the Archmage within 18" of the chariot by swapping the deathmage (who needed that position for leeching the warsphinx). I finish off the phase with a 3D6 withering on the Chariots, hoping to reduce their impact hits some before they hit the Lions.

Shooting is good as I'd hoped: the chariots are reduced to a single model and 50 shots is too much for the 3W necrosphinx, which goes down.

After a terrible T1, I feel I'm now back in the game with both sphinxes dead. The problem however is the characters being too far away to truly give me dominant magic phases.

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 2 .::.

Chariot charges Lions and Necroknights move up a bit. The bunkers move closer to, in order to hopefully cast some useful spells.

Magic is 10v4 and I scroll a 4D6 D&D on the general's unit (which I truly have no idea why I did - everything important was in BSB range and the unit had LD9 regardless) to start off the phase. He then fails to cast a boosted smiting (+attacks and shooting) and the rest is contained. Shooting kills 6 Archers and we move to combat: the chariot kills 3 Lions on the charge and dies. I use this phase to reform the Lions which allows them to sneak past the previously blocking horse archers - easily worth 3 models in my book.

.::. High Elves Turn 3 .::.

Both Eagles charge Horse Archers. The characters move to the central Archers, who are now in a very good position. The charging Eagle can reform and thus prevent the Necro Knights from attempting a charge on the bunker. The Lions move up hard to attempt a double-charge from the Knights and clear a path to his soft archers and characters.

Magic is 6v3 and he dispels Spirit Leech (2v3), Miasma goes through on Necroknights (-3WS) and I fail to cast Caress of Laniph on his Hierophant with 2D6 (was hoping to draw the scroll, a bit of a longshot but I really wanted miasma through. 7PD would`ve been so much better!).

Shooting is relatively insignificant and in combat the Eagle both kill all horse archers.

Image

Ok, out of time again so C&C and predictions are now welcome :) Rest will follow tomorrow or Saturday!
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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rusty
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1563 Post by rusty »

@Strange: You should probably have run off with the single chariot instead of charging. It's a longshot, but you might have been able to preserve the points. Alternatively, if you were unable to get out of reach, use is as an expensive eagle.
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Ptolemy
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1564 Post by Ptolemy »

Curu Olannon wrote:ETC Draft 2

It is clear with the most recent ETC draft that Warriors of Chaos will not be able to field 2x tooled chimerae and a flying lord. The nerfbat apart from this is headed towards things I don`t care about, and with the exception of the Daemon Prince, things that I do not understand: sure all-chariot core can create polarized matchups, but it has some terrible, terrible matchups of its own (Star Dragon HE springing to mind). As far as High Elves are concern, finally being able to ditch the Spears and take more Archers will help in making the core somewhat more efficient and give more flexibility with regards to unit size. I`m looking forward to trying this out as I believe all versions of Star Dragon lists I have tried so far can benefit from more Archers and less give-away Spears
The ETC comp for WoC makes little sense to me. I don't believe more than 3 chariots is optimal, anyway, as plenty of armies will put Strength 4 shooting into them and pull them quickly.

The DP comp is likewise, unnecessary. If they want to make it more vulnerable, don't allow it a charmed shield. Now, any double cannon army has a reasonable shot at it turn 1 to pull it off the board. Forcing DP builds into a Chaos Armor/Nurgle set up that can't fly doesn't do alot to change how good they are. Soul feeder isn't really necessary.

Then comes the flyer cap where Chimeras (which are easily pulled off with even just fireball) count double. Its an overreaction that clearly wasn't playtested.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1565 Post by Strange »

rusty wrote:@Strange: You should probably have run off with the single chariot instead of charging. It's a longshot, but you might have been able to preserve the points. Alternatively, if you were unable to get out of reach, use is as an expensive eagle.
You are right Rusty. That charge was kinda a case of; they were charging last turn, now they will make it! I did plan on raising one or two, but failed to cast the spell. Would also have been nice to have it hanging around threatening his eagle. Anyway, maybe those 3 extra wounds were worth it in the end :wink:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1566 Post by Curu Olannon »

@rusty - I said the same after the match was over. I think that because I could reform past his Horse Archers it would be better to hold off, but Strange didn't consider this there and then. Lesson learned, I believe ;)

@Ptolemy - I agree that the ETC have gone a little on WoC, however I still think one can build decent lists. As far as DPs go though the trend seems to be going in another direction than Nurgle with Chaos Armour ;)

@Strange - though 3 Lions may not seem like much, every time an Elf dies it seriously hurts the High Elf general's options. That being said, the chariot going at it alone was probably a waste of points in this game.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1567 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ok so for the rest of the game! Pictures are somewhat random (my apologies!) as my phone hasn`t really been cooperative lately.

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 3 .::.

With a good opportunity to strike a decisive blow to my advance, Strange charged the Lions with both units of Necropolis Knights, hoping to aid them with magic. With my stupid waste of the scroll, he was in good shape, too, despite one unit being WS1.

Magic gave us a 6v3 split. The net result wasn`t too bad: he landed 5+ ward on the knights and Soulblight on the Lions. Bearing in mind he had this spell twice, effectively (through the Nehekera equivalent), I was glad they weren`t at S4.

Shooting sees the central Eagle killed along with 8 Archers. I pass all panic tests and we move to combat. With the ward up on the WS1 unit, I directed as many attacks as possible against the other one. When the dust settled after a truly bloody round, the Necros had lost 8 wounds and killed 12 Lions. My numbers were dwindling quickly, but so was his. I held on stubborn and we moved to my T4, as I had a master plan.

.::. High Elves Turn 4 .::.

So I charge the central Archers with the Deathmage (general) and BSB into the flank of the Necroknights. As the unit is very wide I can easily keep the characters out of combat if needed.

Magic is 6v3 and I happily start off with a 4D6 Mindrazor, declaring Power Scroll. I roll a double and I`m a happy camper as I roll my 2D6 on the miscast chart, confident my S8 Archers will decimate his Knights. Strange then asks me what I`m doing and I said I had used the power scroll. He then points to the fact that the power scroll was FAQ`d to half the cast cost of a spell instead of creating IF on doubles, which I truly had simply forgotten! I know I had read it before (and checking it wasn`t a problem as I had all the FAQs on my computer) but due to never playing with or against this item, I simply didn`t remember. The plan (and the happy camper along with it) wasn`t so happy after all. We decided to start the magic phase from scratch again (barring winds, of course) and the net result was getting Withering through on the biggest unit of Knights, reducing them to T3. I also drew his scroll on a 3D6 Power Scrolled mindrazor.

Shooting sees me kill a couple of Archers and put 2W on one of the catapults with the RBTs.

We move to combat and I declare moving my BSB into corner-to-corner with the Knights, hoping the extra 3 S6 attacks will help me out. I do score a lot of wounds on the undead, but the one Knight left on that flank manages to kill my BSB in return. I also lose the majority of the Lions, making this a very expensive win. Nevertheless, my Deathmage is now in a perfect position and the Swordmasters are also present, creating a threat along with the Lions which could be just enough to get me through.

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 4 .::.

He moves everything back (well, 3 units pretty much) and we move quickly to magic: the split is 10v6 which I`m quite happy about as it gives me some options. He starts with a 2D6 Spirit Leech on my Deathmage, which I`m more than happy to let through considering he`s MR5. The result is 4 hits, and I somehow manage to roll triple 1`s and my general dies. I was speechless: having finally gotten him into a truly strong position and gotten rid of the scroll, he just decides to die. I manage to contain the rest of the phase and we move to shooting: at the end of this turn only 3 Lions are left alive.

Image

Having lost the momentum of the Lions and the Deathmage with the Swordmasters being too far behind, the rest of the game was pretty much a stand-off and magical duel which I lost: I managed to kill a single unit of Archers and a catapult (roughly 200 points), however he managed to finish the Lions (450 points) and the biggest unit of Archers (321 points). I tried to use Pit and Withering but I never had enough power to truly utilize it: despite reducing his bunker to T1 at one point there just weren`t enough Elven Archers left after his catapults had torn me apart all game to finish the job.

This picture shows the status towards the end of the game, after his T5 I believe:

Image

So, counting up the victory points it was about as even as it can get: Strange was 25 victory points ahead of me. However, Tomb Kings reduce their VPs given away by 10% and this was enough to place Strange comfortably ahead by some 200-odd points, which gave him an 11-9 victory over the High Elves.

Evaluation

Strange again played a solid game and his Tomb Kings are indeed becoming a hard matchup for me to face. While admittedly his blunder on the West gave me a big opening, I failed miserably at utilizing it properly. With the Swordmasters losing their position so early on, sending the Lions in so aggressively without support was suicidal: they are strong but 8 monstrous cavalry really do pack a bunch as well. Granted, this was partly because I`d forgotten how the power scroll works, but regardless it would`ve been better to use an Eagle to block one unit (instead of taking out the HAs) to allow the Lions 1v1.

I was very happy with deployment and how I handled his various threats early on. Failing a crucial LD test early on is always terrible, but getting both sphinxes T2 made up for this.

Towards the end of the game I would`ve wanted to put more pressure on his bunker, but with the Tomb King around there simply wasn`t a way for me to do this without elite infantry. Speaking of the Tomb King, I consider him a real steal at 181 points as he provides LD10 (making Spirit Leech that much more potent) and really forces opponents to commit if you want to kill the bunker: threats which are usually devastating to the Tomb King general don`t necessarily get past a 4A S7 T5 W4 model just like that.

Another great game but sadly, this time a loss for the High Elves. I have some thoughts with regards to list changes, however the bigger question for now is whether this kind of a list is optimal for a single player environment. List thoughts will definitely come soon :)
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Elithmar
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1568 Post by Elithmar »

Never much to say on your reports - you do a thorough analysis yourself. :)

I was getting confused though - I thought you had a star dragon until half way through when I checked you list! :lol:
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1569 Post by Dark Reaper »

Strange: :D I am truly happy to see you get the win! Just keep in mind that with the new ETC FAQ your Liche Priests will no longer be able to use another model's leadership for Spirit Leech, making it much less potent.

Curu: Though luck on losing your mage. That must surely have been a very decisive moment in the game. Just goes to show that rolling those 1's truly are an art that can be mastered.

Side note: I think I can picture exactly how the Power Scroll discussion went down which is actually quite funny. I still think it has a place in your list though. The threat of suddenly casting mindrazor on 7+ late in a magic phase is not to be underestimated.
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John Rainbow
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1570 Post by John Rainbow »

Not much to say other than you got some hard luck with the miscasts, etc. Had this not happened there would have been a different complexion on the game.
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:I was getting confused though - I thought you had a star dragon until half way through when I checked you list! :lol:
This one caught me out too at first!
Dark Reaper wrote:I think I can picture exactly how the Power Scroll discussion went down which is actually quite funny. I still think it has a place in your list though. The threat of suddenly casting mindrazor on 7+ late in a magic phase is not to be underestimated.
I think there are better options for the points - and items that do the same thing. For instance the power stone or something else that adds extra dice to a phase.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1571 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Elithmar of Lothern - yeah I probably could`ve been a bit more clear on the lists prior to the game, my bad.

@Dark Reaper - I haven`t had a chance to read the new ETC FAQ yet, looks like I have to take a look quite soon though as this heavily impacts my intended direction for this list. And yeah, I have to learn how to stop rolling all those 1`s ;)

@John Rainbow - Arguably a few dice rolls were very influential in this game, but that`s warhammer and I don`t think I was that unlucky. Sure, LD9 tests shouldn`t be failed that often, but in return I killed 2 sphinxes in the next turn. I lost the game simply because Strange played better than me, no doubt in my mind :)

As for power scroll vs power stone - the latter doesn`t help with ETC and even if it had, it would increase the miscast percentage drastically, which I`m not interested in. Even with the FAQ I think it´s a brilliant addition: withering on 7+ and mindrazor on 9+ are truly terrifying and will make most opponents think twice about burning a scroll early. If I can have the ranged threats to utilize this advantage early on, the magic pay-off is greater than the sum of its parts.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1572 Post by Curu Olannon »

Time for some list thoughts!

Originally after this game, I was quite sure that I`d need a more solid central element to house my mages. Furthermore, the more durable and physically small this unit can be, the better. The most useful option was obviously Phoenix Guard. Furthermore, having had a couple of games with the RBT I simply don`t think they`re worth their points. Barring insane synergy, I can`t see them be worth more than 50-60 points. Taken together I decided to try out a build with a foot prince, equipped with the Bow of the Seafarer which partially weighs up for the loss of the RBT in terms of power. He also provides a better close combat presence than the BSB and fits in very well with the PG. The ensuing list thus looks like this:

Prince Bow of the Seafarer, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec, Great Weapon => 257
Archmage lvl 4 Shadow, Power Scroll, Loremaster`s Cloak, Fireward => 320
BSB Radiant Gem of Hoeth Death, Charmed Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon => 174
Mage level 2 Death Sigil of Asuryan, Ironcurse Icon => 180

Characters: 931

26 WLs, FC and magical attacks, +1M (450)
22 Phoenix Guards, FC and Banner of Sorcery, Skeinsliver (435)

Specials: 885

26 Archers, FC flamebanner => 321
26 Archers, FC => 311

Core: 632

Eagle => 50

Rare: 50

Total: 2498

5 drops + skeinsliver gives me a pretty good chance of going first, establishing central control and bringing on the hurt. However, I`ve just read the most recent discussion on the ETC FAQ and it would appear that they`re going to overrule GW`s FAQ with regards to "unmodified" spirit leech, making an LD8 mage a lot worse and thus reducing the utility of the prince as well.

The question thus becomes if I ditch the lore entirely, for example in the favour of metal (which still has a strong signature spell, although not nearly as flexible as an LD10 spirit leech), or if I will go back to dual archmages. In any case, I think that a medium-sized unit of WL or PG is the perfect center for this kind of army, with the big unit of Lions usually deployed on the flank. I also like the few-drops nature of the list suggestion above because it creates a very compact army that is both hard to attack and get points from.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1573 Post by Stormie »

Nice report above, shame about the epic 1-1-1 on your Loremaster's Cloak, but these things happen!

I like the look of the new list, but I really think if you're using a list where Mindrazor will be an option, you should give Spearmen a go. This gives you a wildcard unit that isn't really a threat, isn't easy to get points from, and really benefits from the spell more than almost anything else.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1574 Post by John Rainbow »

Stormie wrote:I like the look of the new list, but I really think if you're using a list where Mindrazor will be an option, you should give Spearmen a go
Mindrazored archers are just as good bar the loss of ranks. I don't think the spears add much and they remove the ranged ability of the archers.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1575 Post by Stormie »

The key difference is that the Spearmen would actually be moved up to act as an active threat, whilst Archers are a passive unit, held back and away from combat, where they're less likely to be in a position to benefit from being Mindrazored. Having said that, if played defensively (which could be the case with a list like this), then the Archers can be almost as much of a threat; plus I'm sure the Archers will occasionally get into combats that could be turned around with a good Mindrazor.

(think I'm just a bit tired of seeing 40 - 50 Archers in every list these days as well, but that's neither here nor there ;) )
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1576 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Stormie - I simply don`t consider Spears good at all. Apart from providing ranks and receiving magical buffs, they are completely useless. My list(s) do not need either of these, and most magic buffs work equally well for Archers :) As for all-Archer core being boring, I agree - let`s hope the new book makes other configurations viable.

@John Rainbow - indeed the ranged ability of the Archers is what makes them the superior core choice. Being able to threaten monsters, lone characters, redirectors and even war machines to a certain degree is pretty good, by High Elf core unit standards.

Ok so some more list discussions. For Crusade, which is in a month`s time, I`ve decided to stick to High Elves. I have yet to determine whether to take the Star Dragon or a magic-heavy list. IF I do take the Star Dragon, it will be a variation of last year`s list with a few small changes - most notably the SMs will be gone in favour of yet more WLs. This is because of 2 things: the meta has moven towards more shooting and more tough and fast units, which means that Lions with a better save and stubborn are more reliable. I also don`t consider chopping up infantry to be an issue. Furthermore, in the hard matchups (most notably Empire, OK and Dwarfs) I consider White Lions to be superior. When in doubt, always look to what helps you in the hard matchups.

Although I did originally have a draft for a new magic-heavy list, the new ETC FAQ makes it impossible to go for death without having LD9, in my opinion. Thus, I`m forced to lose the Prince.

The two drafts are as follows:

Archmage level 4 Death General Loremaster`s Cloak Dispel scroll Fireward => 325
Archmage level 4 Shadow Power Scroll Ironcurse Icon => 300
BSB level 1 Death RGoH Charmed Shield Great Weapon Dragon Armour => 174
Noble Great Weapon Armour of Caledor Dawnstone => 143
=> 942
26 Archers FC Flaming (321)
27 Archers Muso Champ (312)
=> 633
26 WL FC AoL +1M => 450
21 PG FC Skeinsliver Banner of Sorcery => 420
=> 870
Great Eagle => 50
=> 50
==> 2495

For the above list I also ran some numbers as I was considering the Starwood Staff instead of the Power Scroll. I considered Withering, Pit and Mindrazor to be the key spells of interest. The run-down was as follows (all numbers are percentages):
Normal vs Starwood:
Miasma boosted 2D6: (72 v 83)
Withering normal 3D6 (74 v 84)
Withering normal 4D6 (90 v 94)
Withering boosted 4D6 (76 v 84)
Pit of Shades 3D6 (62 v 74)
Pit of Shades 4D6 (90 v 94)
Mindrazor 4D6 (56 v 66)

In a more ranged-oriented context, I might`ve gone for the Starwood Staff. However, since I want to move up rather fast and engage at mid-range, I don`t think I`ll cast Withering boosted more than once, maybe twice, per game. Furthermore, although Starwood Staff boosts mindrazor from 55 -> 66 percent chance of casting, I don`t think the number`s quite high enough to rely on (if it were above 75 or something it`d be a much harder decision). In comparison, the flexibility of the power scroll is insane and this list really does rely on breaking through decisively: either by means of character assassination, massed archer fire or mindrazored elite infantry.


Prince on Star Dragon: Vambraces of Defense, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec, Great Weapon (622)
Noble Battle Standard Bearer on Great Eagle: Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, Dragon Armour, Shield (208)
High Magic Mage: Level 2, Annulian Crystal (175)
Characters (1005)

28 Archers with Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flames (343)
15 Archers with Musician (170)
10 Archers with Musician (115)
Core (628)

26 White Lions with Full Command and Amulet of Light, Banner of Swiftness (450)
17 White Lions with Full Command and Skeinsliver, Gleaming Pennant (315)
Special (765)

2 Great Eagles (100)
Rare (100)
Army total: 2498


As always, C&C welcome :)
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Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1577 Post by Axiem »

Hi Curu!

Interesting twist on the Double Level Four list! I do however have a few concerns regarding the characters. How much use do you feel you'll get out of Raidant Gem considering you also have the double Level Fours, both with high-casting value lores? You could for instance, give your BSB the Skeinsliver and take 4 more Phoenix Guard instead to help add to their survivability / combat potential.

Secondly, what is the purpose of the foot noble? I feel he'll just be fairly easy points if he joins one of the combat units (the rest of your characters are in your Archers am I correct in assuming?) if he was a 1++ on horse, I could see his use (and in fact feel this might be a good solution: see below) but here he feels out of place.

Finally, I feel you desperately need something to protect your flanks. A Tiranoc Chariot is the usual choice here but you could do it with Swordmasters or White Lions if you weren't inclined. The Noble however feels like he might be the best solution here: he alone could hold up a Ghoul block or similar S4 / S5 (maybe) horde while the rest of your units went to town.

Thoughts?

Axiem
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1578 Post by Curu Olannon »

The character placement will depend entirely on the matchup; if I face snipes they are all likely to be in the same unit. The main purpose of the PG is to act as a hard, semi-offensive unit with most of the characters housed within though, enabling me to cast the relatively short-ranged spells of Shadow and Death as I please. This is sort of what the Swordmasters were supposed to do in the last game, but I do think PG are way better suited for the task.

As for RGoH on the BSB, I consider this a vital addition: being able to cast spirit leech twice makes my magic phases much more potent. I have tried both with and without and I am sure this is a better setup. Adding a couple more PG is unlikely to significantly boost their effectiveness and usability.

The foot noble is a way to spend my last remaining points. He also adds some much needed punch to the PG in the absence of the Prince. Effectively, he`s a poor man`s fighting character. More importantly, having him around allows me to keep all the characters in the PG unit without having to be too afraid of close combat: between command in the front rank, make way!, the magic potential and smoke and mirrors there are lots of options even if I get engaged. If I put him on a horse he is very vulnerable to cannon fire and furthermore, he cannot join the PG to block other characters from the front rank. As it stands he can also hold up S3 // S4 infantry fairly well, though the main problem here will always be combat resolution (same goes for the guy on a horse).

Flank protection is in my opinion not a problem here. There will at most be one flank which can be considered weak, with only Archers. To assault this, an opponent has to bypass the magic, shooting, central PG element and the Eagle. I don`t see which armies this will be a problem against, especially not one where a chariot would make a difference. Furthermore, a chariot gives me +1 drop, something I`m not interested in.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1579 Post by Curu Olannon »

And so it begins, or ends, or whatever: I have a match against Strange tomorrow and I`ll be fielding the magic heavy list. Since time is running out for me, this will be a make-or-break game from a list style point of view. While I view the magic-heavy approach as inherently stronger than the Star Dragon, it doesn`t matter if I cannot win with it, and win big. As such, if I don`t get a very decisive win tomorrow, I`ll ditch the mages in favour of the Star Dragon. Regardless, the list style for Crusade will be determined tomorrow and the real practice and fine-tuning will begin.

Quick list recap:

Archmage level 4 Death General Loremaster`s Cloak Dispel scroll Fireward => 325
Archmage level 4 Shadow Power Scroll Ironcurse Icon => 300
BSB level 1 Death RGoH Charmed Shield Great Weapon Dragon Armour => 174
Noble Great Weapon Armour of Caledor Dawnstone => 143
=> 942
26 Archers FC Flaming (321)
27 Archers Muso Champ (312)
=> 633
26 WL FC AoL +1M => 450
21 PG FC Skeinsliver Banner of Sorcery => 420
=> 870
Great Eagle => 50
=> 50
==> 2495
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Strange
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1580 Post by Strange »

Ahh, the weight on my shoulders. I really hope I come out on top tomorrow since a massive star dragon for crusade is a lot cooler than a few pansy mages. Did you see the HE rumour thread on warseer. T8 and W8 star dragon, if its true dragons might well be the kings of a fantasy world again.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1581 Post by SpellArcher »

Yes, is it possible you're simply better with an aggressive army in general Curu?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1582 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Strange - Bring your best, I need a strong encounter to properly gauge the list :)

@SpellArcher - indeed you might be right! However, I think there`s merit to trying out other builds than what I'm most comfortable playing when there are potentially a lot to gain from it.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1583 Post by John Rainbow »

SpellArcher wrote:Yes, is it possible you're simply better with an aggressive army in general Curu?
I've been thinking about how I play and whether I'm better at certain things/with certain builds. The answer is almost certainly yes for me, especially with my relative lack of experience compared to you guys. I have found it really useful though to play other builds and, even better, other armies as a means of improving my all-around abilities though. Obviously we all want to win our games but in the end if you improve and have a good time doing it, it isn't an issue. It's also good to see people pushing their boundaries and the limits of what HE can do, and coming up with new ideas/builds in the process of doing so.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1584 Post by SpellArcher »

Consider how we've all learned over the past couple of years.

If the book is any good we should be able to cause a lot of trouble with it.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1585 Post by Jimmy »

So he's leading the archers Curu, that's what was unclear. :)

Thanks for the game guys and congrats to Strange, a well deserved Win.

I certainly feel that the dual mage list is a nightmare for most oppoenets Curu however I think its easier for a TK army to deal with over a Star Dragon list. Looking forward to the next game.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1586 Post by rusty »

Dual archmage:
I would refer you to Furions dual archmage list. More White lions :-). Not sure if I agree with his choice of Heavens though. And drop the spare hero, points better spent elsewhere.

Dragon:
Good. Maybe only two big units of archers for fewer drops? Keeps them steadfast until someone can come to the rescue.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1587 Post by Curu Olannon »

@John Rainbow - Indeed I think learning to play other styles can help you out greatly! Personally I have played like 90% of my games with aggressive lists, so it would make sense if defensive / passive lists are my weak link.

@SpellArcher - Really looking forward to the new book! Whatever it brings I believe it`ll be highly interesting :)

@Jimmy - yep, he was with the Archers. Sorely missed in our most recent game as well.

@rusty - I`m inclined to agree (see below). As for dropping the Hero though, I disagree (again, see below). As far as the Dragon`s concerned, he won`t be an issue anytime soon.

So I just got back from a game vs Strange, yet again. Fielding the newest version of the dual archmage list, I had declared beforehand that this game would decide what I`ll take to Crusade. I need time to paint up and finish the army, regardless of my choice. Therefore, the choice had to be made now. Since I`ve struggled with this type of list recently I told rusty and Dark Reaper that unless I would win 18-2 or more, I would give up and start practicing with the Star Dragon instead.

A thorough report will follow later, but I don`t have the time at the moment and would much more like input right now: long story short I won 20-0. At the end of the game Strange had 4 models left and had only killed one unit of Archers + Eagle. I played PG on one flank, Lions on the other. The two Archer blocks were centrally placed, taking a commanding position from which they killed the Sphinxes very quickly (both were dead T2, although Spirit Leech had its share in this as well). I broke through his flank with the PG, which threatened the bunkers. This forced a unit of Necroknights to swift reform and handle them (which failed miserably, due to a power scrolled mindrazor), leaving the Lions alone, full strength, to handle the other unit. Both units perished and this allowed the elite infantry (mainly the PG since the Lions were stuck in combat for like 4-5 rounds against the Necroknights which Strange constantly helped out with magic) to destroy his bunkers. On top of this, I had the mages within ~20" of everything important for the entire game, pretty much casting whatever they wanted to: Spirit Leech drew a scroll T1, killed a Sphinx T2, killed a Hierophant T5 etc etc. Having dual LD9 SL is just brutal.

Lessons learned:
- Start off with aggressive casts of Spirit Leech. 3D6 from Archmage, 4D6 from BSB. 2/3 D6 respectively fail too often.
- Getting the scroll out early grants extreme flexibility (ref: power scroll). This spell is as good as it ever was.
- PG are extremely hard to kill, but they leave the list vulnerable: if the Lions are brought down to a manageable size, all an opponent has to do is save enough dice / a scroll for mindrazor and I simply cannot win combat against tough things. I think this army setup calls for 2 units of Lions. I do intend to play the smaller one primarily as a 5-wide unit, because the footprint I create is rather big at the moment with 3 10-wide blocks.
- 5 blocks + Skeinsliver is really powerful. Being able to know that you will very likely get T1 helps this army out tremendously: creating threat zones, getting the scroll out before anything has moved...
- The fighty Noble isn`t "all that", however he's cheap, keeps my drops low, grant me a blocker vs S3 // S4 stuff and most importantly, lots of flexibility with Smoke and Mirrors
- The Death Archmage seems to be my primary caster. This implies that I should consider making the Shadow Archmage my general, ref. miscasts. The Deathmage does have the Cloak though.
- 2 casts of Spirit Leech is extremely intense. This context creates a stressed environment, forcing opponents to "do something" which frequently means more mistakes. Lions and Shadow Magic are perfect for exploiting mistakes.

The next game I`ll play will feature a list exactly like this one, except that the unit of PG will be a second unit of WL: that`s right, I jumped the bandwagon. At least I tried both SM and PG first ;)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1588 Post by Curu Olannon »

Quick list update (no surprises given my last post, more of a reference point). Having thought it over a bit, I think it`s better to have the General on Death, given his 2+ ward vs magic and fire:

Archmage level 4, Death, General, Loremaster`s Cloak, Dispel Scroll, Firebane Gem => 325
Archmage level 4, Shadow, Power Scroll, Ironcurse Icon => 300
BSB, Death, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Charmed Shield, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour => 174
Noble, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone => 143
=> 942

26 Archers, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flames (321)
27 Archers, Musician and Champion (312)
=> 633

26 White Lions, Full Command, Amulet of Light, Banner of Swiftness => 450
21 White Lions, Full Command, Skeinsliver, Banner of Sorcery => 420
=> 870

Great Eagle => 50
=> 50
==> 2495

C&C welcome :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1589 Post by vladamex »

Hi Curu,

Interesting list - looking forward for more battle reports with it. Two quick questions about your chars:

1) Are you not afraid of losing your BSB to miscast due to the RGoH? As you've mentioned above, safe casting Spirit Leech needs 4 dice, so statistically he will be miscasting about once per game (15.25% chance, IIRC). In addition, his AS is 4+ which is not great level of protection. Wouldn't it be safer to give the Radient Gem to the other noble, and give the BSB the fighting kit (2+ RR AS)?

2) Did you consider mounting the other (non-BSB) noble to a horse? A noble with Helm of Fortune/Dragon Armor/Shield/GW gets 1+ RR AS for 143 points, and is a better S3/S4 troops blocker than the same hero on foot (better AS, larger threat range, horse adds 1 attack).
The obvious downside is that he wouldn't be able to get LoS save vs. cannons - is this the reason why you keep him on foot?

Cheers!

Edit: wording
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1590 Post by Curu Olannon »

Thanks for the input, vladamex! I actually hadn`t considered it, but your train of thought makes perfect sense! I will definitely switch the BSB equipment around with the other noble and see how that goes :) As far as mounts are concerned, the biggest problem here is the loss of look out, sir!

With regards to my last game, I will just do a rather brief report tomorrow which will summarize the main events and thoughts. For now, this is the deployment picture:

Image

Strange had the Warsphinx on the West, Necroshpinx East behind cover and the knights centrally placed. The characters + archers were all behind and the chariots were flanking on the East. The Horse Archers (not yet deployed on the picture) went on one flank each, roughly in the middle between our forces.
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