Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1531 Post by Curu Olannon »

Alright, concept time!

My last tournament was way back in April, last year. A couple of months after that were spent experimenting with various magic-heavy Star Dragon lists, trying out everything from a Coven of Light to Heavens. Suffice is to say that I mostly found that lacking troops wasn`t that big of a deal because magic gave me increased flexibility. I didn`t play at all for a couple of months and when I returned, it was clear that the typically strong armies had changed. The way I see it, the difference between now and a year back in time is that now everything is about mobility, hitting power, characters and armour. A year ago people were still more into magic and big units. Thus the amount of "chopping power" an army needs has been decreased, instead it is more important to have "stopping power". In a nutshell, Swordmasters possess chopping power and a cannon possesses stopping power, so to speak.

Combining these two together, and also being inspired by reports from Seredain I was intrigued to try and make the Star Dragon work in a combined arms approach. While the list I took to Crusade last year was fairly straight forward with lots of mobility and hitting power, it did lack a lot with regards to ranged threats. With the change in the meta, I think that High Elves need to go bigger on the ranged threats to be competitive against e.g. combined-arms Ogres, Demigryph-cannon Empire, Monster-mash WoC and the soon-to-be-cannon-wielding DoC with ridiculously strong GDs. In addition to this, flying circus DE lists are getting increasingly popular, as well as Bretonnia RAF. Indeed, many High Elf generals have also picked up on this, as one can see on this very forum from the likes of e.g. finreir. While countering mobility with mobility isn`t the worst plan, it`s not the best either and mobility does tend to suffer against other strong armies (see above): simply put it`s easier to dictate where a flying character can move with a high-strength missile (either mundane or magic) than with a flyer of your own, considering that your own flyer preferably has to do something more than keep another one in check (especially if he costs 600 points, which a Dragonlord tends to do).

Ok so enough talk. Where am I getting at? Looking at the easiest way to combine the essentials of a strong magic phase, it was evident that High Magic would be the core of the army. Between dual-shields, Vaul`s Unmaking, Curse of Arrow Attraction and Fury of Khaine, there is something for nearly everything out there. To round this out, getting in a Banner of Sorcery and a lvl 1 Death-BSB for LD9 Spirit Leech provides redundancy and dice advantage: there`s hardly any armies out there which do not fear an LD9 Spirit Leech enough to warrant a dispel, leaving the High mages free to cast whatever I need. To further go with the combined arms approach, I decided to include a couple of RBTs, which combined with a mass-Archer core seriously give you a ranged advantage over most opponents (with pure artillery armies being the only ones you have to advance against). The Dragon thus becomes an offensive defender, together with a unit of Lions carrying the Banner of Sorcery. Whereas I previously had a game plan revolving around hitting home with multiple units, this army revolves around creating a ranged advantage and forcing the enemy to move - something that is very hard to do against a Star Dragon and a big WL unit.

The list will be posted later.
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SpellArcher
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1532 Post by SpellArcher »

I'm liking the sound of this...

Post the list! Post the list!

:)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1533 Post by Curu Olannon »

Prince on Star Dragon with:
- Vambraces of Defense
- Enchanted Shield
- Dragon Armour
- Sword of Might
- The Other Trickster`s Shard
- => 624
rationale wrote:While I am an avid fan of Loec, it just doesn`t fit in this context. To be able to create proper no-go zones, I need magical attacks. Additionally, TOTS has some advantages over Loec as well :)
High Mage with:
- Level 2
- Annulian Crystal
- Ironcurse Icon
- => 180

High Mage with:
- Level 2
- Ring of Fury
- Silver Wand
- => 185
rationale wrote:These guys produce a staggering amount of magical potential - together they sport 7 (!) spells with lots of low-casts and redundancy around. High Magic is essential to the overall army, as Vaul`s help me deal with tough things and Curse is a serious threat with all the ranged power. Ring of Fury and Flames of the Phoenix are great spells to help me deal with redirectors / hordes respectively, and the rest round out the lore nicely.
Death Noble BSB with:
- Dragon Armour
- Great Weapon
- Radiant Gem of Hoeth
- Charmed Shield
- => 174
rationale wrote:This guy was a last-minute include because I reckon that almost every army fears LD9 Spirit Leech. This frees up the high mages - the essential core of the army - to provide the magical assault I consider vital to my success.
Characters: 1163

25 Archers with:
- Full command
- Flaming Banner
- => 310

18 Archers
- Champ & Musician
- => 213

12 Spears
- Musician
- => 113
rationale wrote:I could squeeze in a couple more Archers with minimized Spears, however I really feel that increasing the Spears from 10 -> 12 produce a significant increase in survival. Effectively, they`re there to act as an Eagle and shield a character. In the latter situation, the difference between 10 and 12 is killing 6 or 8, respectively, to force me to lose Look out, sir! That`s a 25% increase, and I believe this to be worth losing a couple of Archers for. With 3 characters that need protection, having a unit that can move about and be semi-aggressive for superior placement is a clear advantage. With that being said, I would`ve taken all-Archer core if I could.
Core: 636

23 White Lions
- Full Command
- Banner of Sorcery
- Skeinsliver
- => 450
rationale wrote:Half the point of this army is to grab the initiative fast and start blasting and relaxing at the same time. To this end, the low drop count (6 + chars) and Skeinsliver greatly help me towards getting first turn, letting me set up and get going before the enemy can react. In effect, I can only gain +1 Lion for dropping the Skeinsliver anyways so I don`t consider this to be a compromising investment. While having few elites is never something to aim for, it`s a necessity for this army to play as I want it to and I believe I can get away with it, given the Dragon and the meta.
Special: 450

2 RBTs (200)
1 Great Eagle (50)
rationale wrote:With 2 RBTs possibly backed by Curse, the ranged threat of this army is enough to force just about every opponent to advance towards me. Furthermore, the single bolt option allows me to threaten big nasties, which is mainly why the Dragonlord`s equipment has changed.
Rare: 250

Army Total: 2499

Overall, the army will likely play refused flanks or strong center combinations, depending on what I face. To win decisively enough to score big points, I need to win big in combat. As such, it might sound weird that I intend to play the Dragon + WLs defensively. However, in a solo-setting it`s very hard not to advance on someone who`s got a ranged advantage on you, and I am counting on this fact to set me up favourable combats where the Dragon + Lions can combine to score the big points.
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SpellArcher
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1534 Post by SpellArcher »

It all makes perfect sense to me except only two combat units maybe.

Did you consider running an eagle BSB instead of the Death mage Curu?
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Elithmar
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1535 Post by Elithmar »

SpellArcher wrote:It all makes perfect sense to me except only two combat units maybe.
This is true, but I'm not sure if you can sqeeze in another unit. The only option I can see is to split up the lions, but then you end up with small units.

I like the list though.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1536 Post by Curu Olannon »

@SpellArcher - indeed, 2 units sounds like very little. However, looking at the last game I had, my HE opponent did not have more than 2 units either. Granted, he had a combat prince as well, but in total he had 450+450+250 => 1150 invested in combat units (including the prince). In my case, it`s 450 + 625 => 1075, roughly the same. I don`t think you really can invest a whole lot more unless you`re willing to skip something else: magic or shooting has to go, which sort of defeats the purpose. Of course I could split the Lions or beef the Spears, but even a horde of 50 Spears don`t count as a combat unit in my book and I don`t think the Lions can go beneath 20 strong as long as they have the Banner of Sorcery. I`m open for ideas though, so feel free to edit the list as you see fit and propose a version with 3 (or more) combat units :)

As far as the BSB`s concerned, my first draft did indeed have him on a Great Eagle. However, he needs to be near the back field: with over 500 points invested in RBTs and Mages I really need a coherent center and a BSB re-roll is vital to that end. As such, the 50 points paid for mobility is wasted and he`s better off spending his magic allowance in other areas. I did have a draft with him carrying the Banner of Sorcery, allowing the Lions to go 26 strong, but in the end I think there are better options for him. Take one will indeed see him field the RGoH, other good options include Loremaster`s Cloak, Reaver Bow and AoC/Dawnstone (which will actually make the big Archers a decent combat unit).

@Elithmar of Lothern - my thoughts exactly! The thing is that small units just don`t cut it with regards to my weak spots: whereas 7 Swordmasters perform excellently against lots of infantry etc, they just can`t do enough against e.g. Skullcrushers (14 attacks => 12.5 hits => 8 wounds => 3 unsaved => die in return to 12 attacks and stomps).
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1537 Post by Irishranger »

List seems solid enough but empire and dwarfs are godawful match ups for the list as they easily out shoot you and out combat you. The main problem is the small single lion unit size and that it can be mauled by magic, one doom rocket hit or plague for example will cripple the unit to the point where slaves can beat it in combat. Any small strength 5 template will kill 8 which is over a third of your main combat unit and 16 lions dont kill a whole lot. Add that to magic damage and suddenly the lions start dropping like flies.

Perhaps your local meta is different to mine but I wouldnt call 40ish archers and 2 RBT a dominant shooting phase, its more that you have a presence in the shooting phase. Ogres, skaven, empire, chaos dwarfs, dwarfs, TK, WE, even brets will dominate you at range. RBT's are what I term a necessary evil, they are over priced and dont kill a lot, they are only worth taking because of their threat potential. Dont expect them to actually hit/kill anything and you'll be fine.

I played a similar list and found the result came down not to the dragon but to the lions. If the lions lived I won and if they died I lost as the dragon cannot fight unsupported due to being challenged and breaking. The difference is I had loremasters cloak and a bigger lion unit making them far more survivable. A good player will always make the lions priority 1 for damage and just contain the dragon till later.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1538 Post by Sackree »

I like the new list.
Magic output should be very solid. d3 power dice with a 50% chance of channellng will provide a great phase. Especially if you start with spirit leech like you said to draw out the dispel dice. The Death BSB gives another offensive aspect that can be deadly against lower leadership armies.

I am just curious as to how you will be keeping the dragon safe in these games if he is playing more defensively. Do you still intend to have him into combat by turn 2?

Finally I bit off topic, but what are your thoughts on the star dragon coven lists? I have noticed that there was quite a few in the 2012 etc lists and was wondering your opinion on them.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1539 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Irishranger - first of all, thanks a lot for the in-depth reply!

I actually don`t think Empire will be as terrible as Dwarfs, because they usually don`t bring that much more than a couple of cannons as far as shooting`s concerned. Between all this magic and firepower, I should be able to silence at least one cannon per turn. I guess playtesting will tell!

As far as small Lions are concerned, the main problem is the 450-point cap. As long as I include the Banner of Sorcery and Skeinsliver, I pretty much have to dump some of the trinkets onto the Lions. In theory, the ETC restriction allows 30 Lions. I guess we can safely assume that the bare-bones minimum they can be fielded as is 29 + musician. Since there`s no-where else to put the Skeinsliver, I have to include a Guardian with it as well, effectively dropping them to 27. Thus, the difference between what I have now and what I can afford is 4 Lions. The problem is that in order to get this, the BoS has to go on the BSB. To solve this, I need to either find the points for another mage (acting as the lvl 1 death in place of the BSB). He could indeed take the Skeinsliver as well, and this would effectively allow me to beef up the Lions a little. The problem with this again is that the only place I can find points is in the rare section. The question thus becomes if it`s worth losing an RBT to tool around with these changes and if indeed 4-5 more Lions is worth losing the RBT for.

As for dominant shooting phase - this is bearing in mind the magical support I have. I don`t see Skaven, Empire or TK as armies that can stay put and not advance on me in any given game in a solo-setting. WE I don`t consider to be a problem because of the Star Dragon.

@Sackree - keeping the Dragon safe should be fairly easy against most armies: hide if you need to. I can engage in combats if I want to but it all depends on the game. In my experience it`s easier to hide a dragon that wants to play defensively than offensively.

Star Coven is definitely interesting and powerful, though sadly no longer an option with the restrictions. I enjoyed playing with it :)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1540 Post by Curu Olannon »

Some more photos from the MoC™ project: I've mounted the Warriors on the MAS bases and started painting one of them to get a feel of how it'll look. I also started the fire-thingy:

Image

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Image

Image

Image

Image
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Elithmar
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1541 Post by Elithmar »

It looks great so far. Are you going to try some directional lighting on the rock?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1542 Post by Curu Olannon »

I haven`t decided yet. I have never tried it before, but I think it looks really good. I might give it a try, we`ll see :)

I just got home from a game vs Strange, featuring the HE concept list discussed recently. In light of recent discussions and input I decided to go with the non-mage BSB for this game, increasing the Lions as much as possible instead (27 strong with musi + champ w/Skeinsliver). I`ll get to the start of the game as soon as possible and continue the report from there (it will very likely be in bits and pieces as I`m quite busy this week). I also have the conclusions from my last WoC game to write up, so stay tuned for interesting posts!
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1543 Post by Curu Olannon »

Here`s a picture from yesterday`s game, right after deployment was completed:

Image
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1544 Post by Curu Olannon »

Before the game started, I knew we were roughly equal as far as ranged firepower is concerned. I wanted to put pressure on the knights and sphinxes fast and get dragon + lions into strong positions. However, I misjudged where he would deploy and my spears ended up in an awkward place. I wanted these central, for chaff reasons and character placement. As this did not happen, he could catapult-target the archers and hurt the mages at the same time. The rest of the deployment was fine, I had everything just about in reroll ld10 range. For magic, I got shield + curse and shield, fury and flames. He got Spirit Leech, Caress, D&D and Bjuna, as well as movement, killing blow, -S/-T and and -movement.

He scouted up and we rolled for first turn. Thoughts? ;)
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1545 Post by Curu Olannon »

.::. Battle Report .::.

Image

Lists:

Tomb Kings:

Lords
Liche High Priest
Dispel Scroll, Wizard Level 4, Death
Liche High Priest
Cloak of the Dunes, Sceptre of Stability, Wizard Level 4, Nehek

Core

Master of Arrows, 15x Skeleton Archers

Master of Arrows, 15x Skeleton Archers

4x Skeleton Chariots
Standard Bearer
Banner of Eternal Flame

5x Skeleton Horse Archers

5x Skeleton Horse Archers

5x Skeleton Horse Archers

Special
Khemrian Warsphinx
Fiery Roar
Necropolis Knights
Musician, 5x Necropolis knights
Necropolis Knights
Musician, 5x Necropolis knights

Rare
Casket of Souls
Necrosphinx
Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult

High Elves:

Prince on Star Dragon with:
- Vambraces of Defense
- Enchanted Shield
- Dragon Armour
- Sword of Might
- The Other Trickster`s Shard
- => 624

High Mage with:
- Level 2
- Annulian Crystal
- Ironcurse Icon
- => 180

High Mage (100) with:
- Level 2 (35)
- Ring of Fury (40)
- Silver Wand (10)
- => 185

Death Noble BSB with:
- Dragon Armour
- Great Weapon
- Banner of Sorcery
- => 174
Characters: 1163

25 Archers with:
- Full command
- Flaming Banner
- => 310

18 Archers
- Champ & Musician
- => 213

12 Spears
- Musician
- => 113

Core: 636

27 White Lions
- Champ + Musi
- Skeinsliver
- => 448

Special: 448

2 RBTs (200)
1 Great Eagle (50)

Rare: 250


Having +2 to go first, I promptly rolled a '5' and left him unable to even try and get it. I was hoping for this to happen, which would hopefully let me draw first blood and set up as I please.

.::. High Elves Turn 1 .::.

So the idea was to create no-go zones and start making all the missiles count. To this end, I intended to slowly whittle the Necropolis Knights away with Fury of Khaine and RBT fire, while the Archers would be tasked with targeting the Sphinx. Unfortunately, the Necrosphinx was too far away to hurt with the S3 arrows, which would've been quite effective against its mobility. I was initially hoping he'd go for the other flank, but realized too late that I had committed my Spears to a poor position. This forced me to put the Lions a bit off and thus give his Necrosphinx a decent path towards my lines without fearing the ranged threat. I was hoping to destroy the West so that I wouldn't have to commit the Dragon against it.

The Lord took a central position as I wasn't afraid of his shooting with the Dragon Armour. The Lions moved up as well a few inches to wheel into the center if he played too cautiously in his T1/T2. The Archers and mages moved into position: the biggest unit was too far away from the Sphinx so I decided to dedicate a turn of shooting to take away his horse archers instead.

Magic started off big with a massive 12v6 phase. I started off with 1D6 on the Ring of Fury, which failed to cast. I then followed up with 3D6 Fury of Khaine, which he allowed through. A single wound was dealt to the Necropolis Knights. Curse on his Sphinx was dispelled on 3v3 D6. He then dispelled a poor cast of Drain with 3v2 D6 and I failed to cast Drain for a second time with my remaining 3D6. Considering my investment, the result of this magic phase was abysmal.

Where magic failed however, shooting was somewhat better: the RBTs combined to take two more wounds off the Necropolis Knights and thus killed a model. The Archers put a wound on the Sphinx and obliterated the nearest Horse Archers.

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 1 .::.

The ancient Warriors of Khemri started moving, but it was relatively slow due to the fear of the Star Dragon: at full wounds it can pretty much charge anything and expect to come out on top. Although risking the Prince against Killing Blow isn't ideal, it can easily be worth it if the gain is big enough and Strange knew this. The only unit moving at full speed was the flaming chariots, who intended to threaten my Western flank. With 4D6 impact hits and a plethora of S4 and S3 from the crew and horses, I knew my Archers would be in dire straits if they could eventually get a charge through. Already, I was beginning to ponder how to win this game reliably, which proved to be a bigger headache than it should've been: with the Dragon pretty much immune to just about everything I can dictate the movement phase which I believe is key to dominating just about every game of Warhammer.

Anyways, moving on: Winds of Magic came up 9v5 after channels, Casket and Annulian were all done for. Strange started off with a 4D6 D&D on my Prince and I dispelled it with all my dice: risking Light of Death isn't worth it and I don't see other spells as big threats at this point in the game. I managed to get the spell off which left Strange with 5D6 against nothing. He tried a boosted killing blow on the Sphinx, fearing a charge, but failed the roll! He then finished off with Light of Death on the Prince, which failed to do anything (LD10 yay!).

Shooting saw 10 Horse Archers open up on the Lions. Somehow, they managed 3 wounds. Somehow, I failed to save them all. At this rate, the Lions wouldn't last long. The catapults however decided to target the Archers and killed 8+1, respectively. Panic was passed, many thanks to re-rollable LD10.

Image

As my T2 was about to begin, I was trying to visualize how the game would develop. My initial thoughts were as follows:
- Nec Knights would have to be delayed for another turn, preferably two, by a dominating position from the dragon
- everything had to be within LD10 re-rollable due to his ranged assault, which heavily restricted the movement on my BSB and Dragon. The fact that the central archers were quickly being reduced did not help this at all.
- the Lions would have to guard the flank against the Necrosphinx and simultaneously threaten a central assault if he moved up too boldly. However, catching a flyer is hard even if it cannot march.

.::. High Elves Turn 2 .::.

The White Lions reformed and moved back, making the distance to the fly-Sphinx 20". The Spears reformed as well and I intended for them to get further behind, hopefully to a central position. The Dragon turned so that if his Necsphinx tried to assassinate the mage, I could flank charge him. Thus, an attempt on the mage would see him die, if he could complete the charge. The West moved backwards a bit, keeping the Sphinx in range but fearing the Chariots engaging too soon.

Magic saw me roll snake eyes. However, with a channel and +2 from the Banner, I had a comfortable 5v1 phase. I started off with a 1D6 Ring of Fury again, which this time went off and dealt 2 more wounds to the weakened necro-knights. 2D6 Curse of Arrow Attraction on the Sphinx was dispelled with his Sceptre of Stability and I finished off with 2D6 Fury on his Necro Knights, which dealt another wound and one unit was thus down to 3 models from its original 5.

Shooting saw my RBTs deal a few more wounds to his Knights, this time spreading their fire since I didn't consider a unit of 3 to be a big problem. I wounded the chariots once since the big Archers were too far away from the Sphinx. However the remaining small archers really put on a hurt: 5 hits managed 3 wounds of which only 1 was saved, leaving the Sphinx on 2W!

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 2 .::.

The Necrosphinx decided to try and kill the mage. I passed terror and decided to hold. He failed the charge and stumbled forwards 4". No more charges were declared and he started to move up. Again, the West was looking threatened. However, by this time I had decided that the Necrosphinx had been slowed enough: the plan was to kill the Warsphinx with firepower and fly the Dragon to the West, hopefully clearing up any advancing units while the Lions could handle the East.

Magic came up 8v7 and again a 4D6 D&D starts off the phase. I dispel with 5D6, he follows up with Light of Death which kills a Repeater as I fail to roll below 11, despite the re-roll (roughly 75% chance of survival, oh well). Luckily it doesn't bounce and I dispel his movement spell (in the process also denying him to heal up the Knights).

Shooting sees the Archers being hated again and the small unit is now down to 4 (!) models in addition to the 2 characters.

Image

The rest will follow shortly :)
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Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1546 Post by Curu Olannon »

.::. High Elves Turn 3 .::.

I sent the Dragon in front of the Chariots, effectively stopping their advance dead in their tracks. The BSB and the rest of the Archers move behind the hill while the mage joins the big Archers, who decide to stay still to maximise their damage output against the severely weakened Sphinx. The Eastern flank sees my Spears reform again behind the Lions with the Lions moving 3" back. The mage joins the Spears.

Magic gives us a 6v2 split. I start off with 1D6 Fury which fails to cast. I then somehow get a 2D6 Curse through, despite him rolling 2D6 to dispel and only needing 4+ to make it! I cast Shield on the Lions with 1D6 and Drain is scrolled.

Shooting sees me manage a total of 21 hits on the Sphinx, for no wounds caused at all. This reminds me of the last encounter I had with TK, where I couldn't hurt the Sphinxes all game to save my life! So much for being lucky with getting Curse through... Having dedicated everything to the Sphinx, the shooting phase left me with nothing whatsoever.

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 3 .::.

The Chariots move a tiny bit and the East moves up hard, though no charges are made. The Necro Knights take up semi-defensive positions. I realize at this point that I need to kill at least one Sphinx and a unit of Necro Knights to win with a decent amount. Tall order, considering the shape of things.

Magic gives us 8v6 and D&D on the Prince is dispelled with 3V4 D6. Light of Death is then dispelled on 3v2 D6. Spirit Leech fails to cast and I consider myself lucky to get away from his phase without as much as a scratch.

The shooting phase is equally miserable: his net result is 1 dead Archer.

Image

.::. High Elves Turn 4 .::.

The Prince charges the Chariots. Lions charge blocking Horse Archers. Spears reform again. Crystalmage + BSB go hiding behind the hill. The Eagle makes itself useful by blocking the Necro Knights, giving me some freedom when the Chariots are dealt with.

Magic is 7v3 and I start off with a 1D6 Fury on the Knights, which he lets go for 2W. 2D6 Curse on the Sphinx is then dispelled on 3D6. I get a 1D6 Shield off on the Lions and attempt a 3D6 Flames of the Phoenix on the Necro Knights, which I fail to cast, unfortunately.

Shooting sees everything target the Sphinx again. This time, I manage a single wound. So close, but not enough.

Combat sees the Lions wipe the Horse Archers and reform. The Prince crumbles the chariots and reforms to face the center (it is legal to reform, right? I know overrun is illegal but I assume this is correct).

Image

.::. Tomb Kings Turn 4 .::.

Necrosphinx charges the Spears. It has a flank charge and by having my unit closing the door the charge is possible. The Horse Archers move to block the Lions. Meanwhile, the Warsphinx realizes it has to do something and attempts a long charge on the RBT, needing 9+... which it makes! The Necro knights charge the blocking Eagle while the other unit stays defensive.

Magic is 7v6 and this is where things begin to get complicated: he starts off with a 3D6 D&D on the Prince which scores fairly low. I throw 4D6 to dispel it but roll abysmal and fail. He promptly throws the rest at Light of Death which I am powerless to dispel. The poor LD7 Lord takes a total of 7 wounds, which are distributed 4-3 (Dragon - Elf). Luckily, the Vambraces save 2, but it's still a critical amount of damage seeing as a 3W Dragon can easily be worn down and the lord can be Killing Blowed anyway.

Shooting sees 8 Archers die to catapult fire but I pass the panic test. Combat sees the Spears lose 2, hold and manage a reform against the Necrosphinx. The blocking Eagle dies. I catch a break as the ASF-crew of the RBT manage to put a wound on the Sphinx before it gets to strike and the 5+ save wasn't passed. All those arrows and I could've just taken confidence in the speed of the Elves ;)

As Strange's Turn 4 is completed, I have a bit of a two-sided problem with the rampaging Necrosphinx on the East and the weakened Prince on the West... Furthermore, a lot of Archers are gone, along with an RBT, making it very hard to gather more points by way of ranged firepower.

Image

The last turns will be up tomorrow!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1547 Post by Jimmy »

Curu as always thanks for the battle report.

I'm writing this as I read the report so some of the comments may seem out of place if you've already answered them so please forgive me if that happens.

On the deployments man the TK player put his archers out of harms way? His mages and archers would be out of range of your units for at least 2 turns. Interesting.

Lists are very interesting, the TK one has a mixed bag of everything which is great to see and although I'm not a fan of Death I love seeing people get it to work. The High Elves of course always present a problem for Tomb Kings with a dragon in the ranks so if they can somehow trap that or pin it in place then they'll have a chance at victory. Tough without Stalkers to deal some consistent wounds on it as well.

Onto the battle.

The first point I have to make is the TK magic phase. I really wasn't convinved that aiming for D&D on the casket and then LOD was the way to go. It paid off in Turn 4 but to me it allowed the High Elves to get off pretty lightly in the other magic phases.

How rude, I didn't realise the whole report wasn't posted up as yet. How can you people not know how to write reports properly as yet??? :lol:

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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1548 Post by Fithvael »

Oh I can't bear it any longer Curu !!

Great report so far, I hope you have some more in store the coming weeks ;)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1549 Post by John Rainbow »

Curu Olannon wrote:The Prince crumbles the chariots and reforms to face the center (it is legal to reform, right? I know overrun is illegal but I assume this is correct).
"Reforming From Victory" (BRB pp.55) states that a unit can reform at the end of a combat round if the enemy did not flee or if the combat was a draw. If the enemy unit crumbles away, it did not flee. Thus a reform is allowed. Sound reasonable?
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#1550 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Jimmy - you`re welcome! I`m sorry I couldn`t complete it all in time, will finish it up now.

As far as deploying Archers far behind is concerned, he was afraid I`d be able to shoot them away, which is a valid concern considering I have 40 shots + 2 RBTs as well as 2 magic missiles, curse, flames and the fire breath template. Perhaps a bit too defensive, but then again making M4 troops change their positions half-way into the game is difficult, to say the least.

I will have a few thoughts to share with regards to the lists when the report is done, stay tuned :)

The problem with the TK magic phase was that he lacked the double shooting spell. As such I didn`t feel any dangers apart from D&D // Light of Death. What would you have done differently?

@Fithvael - I`ll hopefully get a game or two next week, this week is crammed so at best there will be analysis, painting progress pictures etc.

@John Rainbow - thanks for the clarification, makes perfect sense :) At the end of the phase is very interesting, this means you can wait until other units have completed their combats as well. I`ve never played it like this before, will make sure to keep it in mind!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1551 Post by Tarval »

What hapen to turn 5 and 6. Going to make us wait,, :0
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#1552 Post by Curu Olannon »

Moving on with the game...

.::. Turn 5 .::.

I had a tough choice to make, the only way to win would be to charge the Necro-Knights with the D&D`d prince, with the Dragon only having 3W left. I reckoned that he would have to be lucky to kill them both (and thus score the victory points), if I could score just a single wound with the Prince he would "only" get 3 models attacking back. 6 attacks = 3 hits => 50% chance of killing blow. Throw in the Vambraces and the Prince is 25% likely to die. As for the Dragon, I didn`t calculate it as thorough, but with 9 attacks an average of 3 hits is caused and it`s highly unlikely to die outright, despite poison it has a 5+ save after the S5 has negated the scaly skin a bit. I decided to throw caution to the wind and charged. The Lions charged the last Horse Archers.

Crucially, the BSB`s unit failed their re-rollable LD10 free reform. As such, I was stuck in a poor position where I was unable to move away from the Sphinx and join the Archers. Oh-oh. This also meant my BSB would be out of range of the Prince, making Light of Death potentially disastrous...

Magic turned up 7v4. I was really hoping for 8v4 or 7v3 here, because it would allow me to put some serious pressure on the dispel dice: I dispelled D&D with 3D6, leaving 4v4 D6. I decided immediately to throw 2x Shield of Saphery on the Prince to help the Dragon in case he got a killing blow through my defenses. The first cast was stopped with 2D6, but the second came thtough in style!

Shooting saw the RBT have a perfect flank shot at the weakened Necro Knights, which were now down to one model with 3W and one model with 2W. I even had short range and decided to go for the gold medal with a single bolt - realistically this was a relatively decent chance to score big points. Whereas the crew had recently impressed me with their fighting capabilities though, they failed miserably here as I rolled a `1` to hit. The Archers managed to deal a wound to the same unit though.

In combat my Spears died, the Lions reformed towards the center after beating the horse archers in case I needed T6 support for the Prince and it was just the final combat left: the Prince scored 3 wounds before saves, and Strange saved 2 of them. While decent, it was not enough to save another Knight striking back, and I was facing 6 attacks. As predicted, 3 hits. No killing blows were scored and the steeds couldn`t penetrate the scaly skin. In return, the Dragon went crazy, dealing a full 5 unsaved wounds which caused the rest of the unit to crumble. I reformed to face the Necrosphinx in case he would go for the big kill on the failing Archers + mage (which I, in my confusion after failing the LD10 re-roll, had placed on the end towards the Sphinx instead of having the champion there).

Image

In his turn 5 Strange went for the safer approach and charged the RBT instead. Magic saw us get a 5v4 split and he D&D`d the general on 3D6, which I let through. I dispelled Light of Death with 2v4 D6.

Shooting saw one catapult scatter off massively while the other landed a "hit" on the fury-mage. I failed my Look out, Sir! roll and lost the mage.

Combat saw the Sphinx easily beat the RBT and reform.

.::. Turn 6 .::.

In my T6 I turned everything to threaten the sphinx, presenting no other targets than the Lions, which were in re-rollable LD10 range for terror purposes. Magic saw me dispel D&D and shooting saw the Archers fail to impress the ancient construct. In his T6, Strange elected not to charge. Magic saw me dispel Light of Death. He then opened up with the two catapults, hoping to bring the other Archers below 25% as well. One of them misfired however and was destroyed in the process. The Archers lost a couple of models but passed panic. With that, the game was over!

Image

.::. Victory Points .::.

Counting up I knew I wasn`t far ahead, if at all. The initial deployment lent an advantage to Strange and I was unable to get the characters where I wanted them while protecting my flanks sufficiently. Anyways, when the counting was over I was ahead by 353 points, a 12-8 victory to the High Elves!

Evaluation, list discussion and ETC Draft 2 will be the topics for later tonight :)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1553 Post by Irishranger »

Interesting report.
Not sure why you played so passively for the first few turns. That list cannot deal with the dragon or white lions(I've been on both sides of the table in this situation). The knights get minced without light buffs and the dragon is basically unkillable by anything in the tomb king army. Pushing the lions 10" towards the knights each turn forces the tk player to give you chaff( points!) each turn. 40 archers can take 4 chariots off before they charge and with 2 RBT its easy. Yes the sphinxs will clear up some points but not enough.

Pushing the dragon and lions forward should have been a 20-0 to you. Currently it looks a bit late for you to get the max win but I reckon you should get about 14-16 points from the game if you commit with the dragon and lions, otherwise 10-12. Dragon into the close knights and lions in the horsemen and overrun to get the second knight unit in turn 6 with both units.

Edit
Just saw the final turns! Much more aggression needed I think to get a proper win from the matchup. Still 'grats on a win against what seems like a very solid player!
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#1554 Post by Curu Olannon »

I played passively for the first few turns because I was counting on him to move towards me and thus be able to counter him with superior mobility once he had been weakened with a couple of shooting turns. However, I made a big strategic error in placing the Lions on the West flank: I pretty much knew he wouldn`t place any Knights there and although sphinx are T8, they might as well have been T5 against Archers, who actually put on the hurt quite a bit against them. By having the Lions more centrally positioned, the BSB could`ve joined them where he would`ve been relatively safe, despite his frailty. This would`ve allowed me to move up more offensively towards him, which is strategically superior to waiting him out, as you note.

I think Strange played a very solid game this time around: he capitalized on my poor lion-placement and fed them chaff to allow the Necrosphinx to chew through and threaten the supporting units on the East. I was lucky that he didn`t roll up the 2x shooting spell: with it I believe he would`ve won the game, as prioritizing magic defense would`ve been a lot harder. In the end, what won me the game was the basically unkillable Star Dragon (from a TK perspective anyway), and a bit of luck not losing it when I charged the Necroknights.
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#1555 Post by Curu Olannon »

Alright, time for some evaluation updates. Lately I`ve been very busy so I haven`t had much time to think and write as much as I`d like.

Let`s start with the WoC vs HE game.

Playing the aggressive army properly

I have been looking at the report from the most recent WoC game quite a few times to try and determine what I could`ve done differently to get in combat quicker and put more pressure on him. What I`ve realized, more than anything, is that I need to incorporate my core differently: whereas I find using the Dragon + Chimerae to be fairly easy, I think this game highlights my lack of understanding of non-HE core (i.e. core that actually does something). Warriors are incredibly strong and durable, and I pretty much played them as Spearelves in my last game. By being more aggressive with these guys I could`ve forced him to adopt suboptimal positions, which would`ve created more space for the flyers. As it were, I allowed him to get the placement he wanted with too many units creating no-go zones for me. Furthermore, I find that I use the Warhounds like M14 Eagles. As they are not fast cav, this simply cannot be done. In open space, they work fine, but as soon as things get crammed they are actually surprisingly cumbersome to use. I need to consider this more as I deploy them and use their vanguard to mitigate this. Indeed, in the game against High Elves I could`ve probably gotten a way better position earlier if I had used the Western hounds + warriors properly. Lastly as far as core is concerned, I think I need to start running the chariot in tandem with the Warriors, rather than running it as a flanker. This essentially creates a very real threat for just about any foe: the damage output of a charging chariot truly is ridiculous (D6+1 S5 hits, 6 S5 attacks and 4 S4 attacks. Do the math against T3 elves!).

Magic and Utility

I don`t think Shadow is optimal for this army. Whereas Miasma is a wonderful spell, so is Fireball as I do not possess any ranged threats whatsoever. Furthermore, this allows me to utilize up to 10PD instead of 8, which I believe can be very important. Flaming Sword of ruin is also a fantastic spell, if I can grab it. Utility-wise, I believe this guy is great with Tzeentchian Warriors with the Ironcurse Icon, which really does make these guys extremely durable. In an offensive WoC army where damage output isn`t an issue, I believe this is one of the strongest setups available: 3+ / 5++ against war machines and close combat alike.

Mobility, Hitting Power and Toughness

While the Chimerae are great, I`ll make this one short: without the upgrades they simply aren`t worth it. Paying well over 200 points for a T5, W4 thingy without significant protection isn`t worth it. Considering that it has terrible I and LD values as well, I think there are better investments: enter the Skullcrushers. There`s no doubt that these guys pack an amazing punch. Their single weakness is frenzy, but I believe this can be mitigated by the other choices. Essentially I can take another choice like e.g. Ogres instead, but for the moment I`m leaning heavily towards another unit of 3 Skullcrushers. I also really like the conversions I`ve made thus far ;) I`m open for ideas though, but one thing`s for sure: with the ETC comp it`s simply not optimal to include 2 chimerae if you have other flyers.

Game Summary

I think my opponent played very well in the beginning, however when I got an opening with Steed of Shadows, he started making mistakes. I think that my own play was the opposite: some poor decisions early on but it just got better and better as the game moved along. Magic priorities I`d say were pretty good on both sides. The end result was far from what it should`ve been: a bit of luck on my part and poor decisions on my opponent`s really pushed it way further in my direction than it should`ve been. When I broke through the first Lions with dual breath weapons followed by a combo-charge, I knew I was likely in for a 13-7 or something like that, which would`ve reflected the game well, in my opinion. Likewise, had he been more lucky early on with his ranged power I believe I would`ve been looking at an 8-12 game.

Army list changes won`t be much: the Chimera without upgrades has to leave and I will include another heavy hitter instead. To get 3 Skullcrushers with musician + ensorcelled weapons (the bare minimum in my opinion) I need to skip ~20 points elsewhere as well, which basically means my mage has to drop everything but the scroll + ironcurse icon. I don`t think this`ll impact his role much. Again, I`m open for ideas besides Skullcrushers :)

HE vs TK evaluation

As I noted in my reply to Irishranger in the post above, I made a big strategic error in this match by not placing the Archers away from the Necroknights and the Lions opposite them, instead of having the Lions vs sphinx as I did. Tactically, I don`t think I could`ve done much differently after deployment was over because leaving anything alone could easily see his magic + sphinxes tear me apart. However, with the Lions opposite the Knights my BSB could`ve taken up a more central position which would`ve allowed more aggression on my part. Strange played a solid game and I truly believe that his poor magic selection and the matchup being in my favour was what won me the small victory in the end.

Magic priorities were mostly ok. I truly believe that this army cannot work without the Death BSB, which this game highlights more than anything else. With the threat of LD9 spirit leech and the possibility of 3-4-dicing it at the start of every magic phase I can get so much more out of my ranged capabilities. I don`t think the extra 4 Lions are worth it compared to this. Maybe it`s matchup dependent, but I can`t think of any opponents (save for Loremaster Cloak`s High Elves) who can simply disregard LD9 Spirit Leech. This is thus what I`ll be trying out in my next game(s). The question remains whether this army style is superior to the Star Dragon list I took to Crusade last year (which I have yet to lose a single game with!) given the current meta. I`m also undecided with regards to whether I`ll field HE or WoC.

ETC Draft 2

It is clear with the most recent ETC draft that Warriors of Chaos will not be able to field 2x tooled chimerae and a flying lord. The nerfbat apart from this is headed towards things I don`t care about, and with the exception of the Daemon Prince, things that I do not understand: sure all-chariot core can create polarized matchups, but it has some terrible, terrible matchups of its own (Star Dragon HE springing to mind). As far as High Elves are concern, finally being able to ditch the Spears and take more Archers will help in making the core somewhat more efficient and give more flexibility with regards to unit size. I`m looking forward to trying this out as I believe all versions of Star Dragon lists I have tried so far can benefit from more Archers and less give-away Spears ;)

As always, C&C very welcome!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1556 Post by Jimmy »

Great game Curu. As I mentioned in my previous post its always going to be an uphill battle for Tomb Kings against a dragon armour wearing dragon riding character. Stalkers are possibly the best counter we have but then you're dealing with two unreliable factors being EBTS and second random shooting. Not reliable at all. I feel for Strange. :(

I can't really comment on your list mate as I've been so out of touch with High Elves the past 18 months none of it would make sense anyway. Certainly looks solid and has answers to most problems that can be put across the table from it.
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#1557 Post by Curu Olannon »

I had another game against Strange yesterday. Following our last game, he decided to try out a Tomb King. After recent discussions with a couple of friends, I decided to give the dual-Archmage setup another try.

The lists were roughly as follows:

TK - Tomb King with Fireward and Great Weapon
Liche High Priest Lvl 4 Death Dispel Scroll
Liche High Priest Lvl 4 Nehekhara Sceptre of Stability

3 Chariots
2x5 Horse Archers
3 archer blocks

2x4 Necroknights
Warsphinx
Necrosphinx
2 Catapults
Casket of Souls

HE - Archmage lvl 4 Shadow Power Scroll
Archmage lvl 4 Death General Dispel Scroll Loremaster`s Cloak
BSB Death RGoH Charmed Shield, GW

24+14+11 Archers, all with champ + musi and the first with flamebanner

27 Lions, FC + magical attacks
17 Swordmasters, FC + Banner of Sorcery

2 Eagles
2 RBTs

Deployment looked like this (I had all my characters in the biggest Archer unit, positioned behind the Dragon which acted as an Eagle for the game):
Image

Report will follow as soon as I have the time to write it up!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#1558 Post by rusty »

I'd say first turn roll is crucial, with all the possibilities to reduce the enemy's ranged power before he gets to strike. Whether or not TK gets the double shot spell will also matter greatly.

There'se so much random elements in this game, with spirit leech, 6's to wound the sphinxes and so on that it's hard to predict. I'd still say the HE have the best chance. The White lions can deal with anything, even sphinxes, particularly if withering/mindrazor go off.

Now I'm curious if any of you will go on the offensive, or if both will hold back and shoot. I think advancing with lions risk a lot of shooting and then a combocharge taking them down, but if some TK elements go down to ranged attacks then the lions might very well cut through and into the mages and archers. If not, your'e looking at a minor win either way.
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#1559 Post by Jimmy »

Is something missing from his list Curu? What is the King leading?
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#1560 Post by Curu Olannon »

@rusty - well summarized. I learned a lot about the Sphinxes in our last game, and this is why I pretty much just gave up on the left flank here, as you can tell from deployment: if the Sphinxes want to advance, they`ll meet a hail of arrows. Their strength lies in tieing up high-quality, low-volume attacks. The Archers provide the opposite, making them a terrific counter. Thus, a seemingly weak flank becomes very strong, given the context.

@Jimmy - the king isn`t leading anything. Why should he? At 180 points he`s solid, providing LD10 for Spirit Leech and Spirit Leech defense, as well as a solid combat presence which makes it very hard for lone hunters, small units etc to even remotely hurt the bunker. With S7 T5 W4 you simply cannot disregard him, furthermore making the entire unit WS6 actually makes them capable of handling minor threats coming their way. For example, in this matchup I can`t send Archers against his bunker: whereas I`d usually expect to murder them in combat, the King really changes this matchup to a poor one for me.
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