The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

[Seredain]

Last Edited on 05/08/14







THREAD CONTENTS

For ease of reference, below are listed the main entries in respect of unit choices, tactics, battle reports and updates to the list. Interspersed with these are the contributions from other posters and my miscellaneous replies.

Page 1
- The Original List
- Successes and Conclusions - Nov to Dec 2010
- The 2nd List
- The Latest List
- On Repeater Bolt Throwers
- On Silver Helms
- Mini Battle Report and Analysis - Lizardmen
- List Edit (having fought Orcs and Empire)

Page 2
- Armour re-rolls vs Ward Saves
- Lore Choices - Life vs The Rest
- Life and Throne of Vines
- The Chariot
- Small Elite Units and Unit Combinations
- Deploying Cavalry Characters
- High Elf Ranks and Hordes
- List Update - The Amulet of Light
- Tactical Problems facing the Cavalry Prince List

Page 3
- Deploying the Cavalry Prince List (map)
- 2200 Point Lists (continued from Page 2)
- On Metal Magic and Steam Tanks

Page 4
- Battle report - Lizardmen
- Silver Wand vs Dispel Scroll
- Deploying Against the Lizards
- Plan for Bad Luck
- Small Elite Units (2)
- The Slann
- Reflections on the Silver Helms

Page 5
- One Unit of Elites or Two?
- 2000 point Cavalry Prince List
- Why Heavy Cavalry?
- Why Take a Cavalry Prince?
- Facing Empire
- Theoretical Thoughts on the Steam Tank

Page 6
- Tiranoc Chariot or Lion Chariot?
- On 8th Edition and 'Point and Click' Warhammer
- The Gleaming Pennant
- Fluff and Unit Choices
- Some General Tips Against Some Other Foes
- Against Killing Blow
- Deploying the Archmage
- On Seaguard, Archers and Spears
- On Ancient History
- Breaking Infantry Hordes with Combined Arms High Elves
- Redundancy

Page 7
- Deciding on a 2400 Point Cavalry Prince List
- Battle Report - High Elves vs Orcs & Goblins (pictures)

Page 8
- Battle Report - Feedback
- The Giant Blade
- Getting Flank/Rear Charges
- 2200 Cavalry Prince List vs Vampire Counts - Janwin
- Battle Report - Debrief
- On Shadow Warriors - Milliardo
- Large Hordes vs Elite Hordes
- Dwellers Against the Spearelves

Page 9
- Battle Report - High Elves vs Orcs & Goblins (pictures)
- The Giant Blade (2)
- Battle Report continued
- Against Refused Flanks (map)

Page 10
- Thoughts on Facing Shooty Armies
- Proper Gunlines
- Facing Daemons
- Tough Lists?

Page 11
- Bolt Thrower or Level 1 Mage?
- The Cavalry Prince vs Death Magic
- Pendant Pegasus Dreadlords
- Battle Report - High Elves vs Daemons of Chaos (pictures)

Page 12
- High Elves vs Daemons - Debrief
- Thoughts on Harassment-Heavy Dark Elves
- The Crown of Command+Pendant Dreadlord

Page 13
- Anathir's Archer & Reaver list edit

Page 14
- Battle Report - Anathir vs Vampires (maps)
- The Archer Horde
- Battle Review - Anathir vs Vampires
- Swordmasters vs White Lions
- The Spearelf Column vs the Archer Horde
- Thatguyoverthere - Youtube batrep link
- Battle Report - High Elves vs Skaven (pics)

Page 15
- Cavalry Princes, Shadow Magic and Life Magic
- Seaguard (2)
- Mini-Report - 2500 High Elves vs 2250 Empire (pics)
- Battle Report - 2500 High Elves vs 2720 Vampire Counts

Page 16
- Battle Report - High Elves vs Vampire Counts (pics)
- Battle Report Preview - 2506 High Elves vs 2750 Empire

Page 17
- Battle Report - 2506 High Elves vs 2750 Empire (pics)
- Battle Review - High Elves vs Empire

Page 18
- Magic on a Budget- The Banner vs The Support Mage (multi-post discussion)
- The Radiant Gem and the Helm Hammer
- The Banner of Sorcery vs the Chariot

Page 19
- Battle Report - 2500 High Elves vs 2570 Daemons of Chaos

Page 20
- Losing the 2nd Repeater - Problems and Solutions
- The Ring of Fury
- List Edit
- Liberating the Archers
- The 'Hit-and-Run' Unit
- The Fighting Swordmasters
- MSU White Lions
- The Banner of Eternal Flame
- Living without the Swift Reform
- Forcing the Dual-Charge (pic)
- Battle Report - 2500 High Elves vs 2685 Lizardmen - Deployment (pics)

Page 21
- Facing the Vampire Bunker
- Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen - continued (pics)
- Battle Review
- Battle Review (2)

Page 22
- Battle Review - The Updated List
- Ether-Drake - End of Term Battle Report

Page 23
- Expanding Your Forces
- 4000 point Cavalry Prince List
- Thinking about Warriors of Chaos
- The Battle of the Archmages - Cutting the Head off the Snake (pics)
- Battle Review
- Is Dwellers Below Overpowered?

Page 24
On Dwellers (2) (pics)
The Crown of Command+Pendant Dreadlord (2)

Page 25
First Battle against the Ogres - Preview
Dark Elf Armies IV: A New Hope
Lose the Silver Helms? Wha??
Mini-update - the Gem of Courage
Mini-report: High Elves vs Ogre Kingdoms (pics)
Battle Review
The Battle of the Six Armies - Preview

Page 26
Mini-report - ether_drake (pics)
Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen (pics)
Battle Review - High Elves vs Lizardmen - Part 1

Page 27
Battle Review - High Elves vs Lizardmen - Part 2
Battle Review - High Elves vs Lizardmen - Part 3

Page 28
The Tale of the Wise Friend
List Edit - The Long Walk to Happiness
The Lions and the Knights
The Archmage and his Bodyguard
The Benefits of Folariath's Robe
List Edit - High Magic and the Cavalry Prince

Page 29
Folariath's Robe - let's not get cocky...
The Return of the Reapers
High vs Life
High Magic and the Robe
List Edit - Conclusion
Mounting the Archmage
Spellcasting - Redundancy of Spells vs Redundancy of Targets
Shooting and High Magic in the Late Game
Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen(pics)

Page 30
Battle Review - High Elves Lizardmen
How should Lizardmen deploy against the Cavalry Prince List?
Repeater Bolt Throwers and Skink Skirmishers
Fielding the Ancient Stegadon against the Cavalry Prince
Why do Terradons never drop rocks on me?
Seredain Goes to Town - a Tournament Mini-Report Special - 2400 points(pics)
Aggressive Eagles
Skink Swarms
Metal Magic Against the Helms
Thanquol
The Impact of Drain Magic
Seredain and Caradath stand alone!
The Ambush that Never Was (pic)
Battle Report Preview - High Elves vs Warriors of Chaos (pics)
Battle Report - High Elves vs Warriors of Chaos (pics)

Page 31
Battle Report continued - 1(pics)
Charging out of a unit at an angle (pics)
Battle Report continued - 2 (pics)

Page 32
Battle Review - High Elves vs Warriors of Chaos
High Magic - One Archmage or Two Level 2s?
List Edit - The Other Trickster's Shard
On the Banner of Sorcery
Enjoying High Magic

Page 33
Larger Games and the Combined-Arms Army
Army Expansion on the Field - Magic vs Swordmasters (pics)
Army Expansion to 3000 points - a Summary Comparison
Swordmasters and the Banner of Sorcery - Best of Both Worlds at 3000 points?
Chariot or Reavers?

From this point on I struggled to add new subject headers as RL got busier, so please excuse me.

For those who have further questions about why I've made any particular choice, please voice them and I'll attempt to explain my reasoning and how I feel a particular unit or unit combination can be used effectively (any such entries are headed in bold).

----------------------------------------------

The Latest List

Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone - 285.
Archmage - High magic, Level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Khaine's Fury - 315.

Noble BSB - Dragon Armour, Barded Elven Steed, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown - 165.
Noble - Lance, Dragon Armour, Barded Elven Steed, Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Other Trickster’s Shard - 151.

11 Silver Helms - Full Command, Shields - 283.
24 Archers - Full Command - 270.
5 Reavers - 80.

20 Phoenix Guard - Full Command, Razor Standard - 375.
6 Dragon Princes - Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame - 194.

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 280.
1 Great Eagle - 50.
1 Great Eagle - 50.

2498 points

[Flame of the Asuryan]

Hi! I am very interested in these kind of lists I am planning a Cavalry list too with lots of Helms, Dragon Princes and reavers. I really like your core setup. Keep a track on how this one goes! I am impressed by this mounted prince set-up. Might try the same build.

Greetz!

Flame

PS: I would ditch the Guardian for Silver Wand on your A-mage.

[SpellArcher]

Yeah this is very encouraging!

I love the Silver Helm bus. You've managed to keep a nice variety of units to support it too.

[drear]

i feel you should give musicians to the units like the swordmasters, as that free reform is very much worth the 6 or 7 points.

i just re-read the list, there are no musicians at all in the list..or have you just not listed them?

[Seredain]

Thanks for the comments so far.

I'd heartily recommend this prince setup for anyone who misses have a fighty character at reasonable cost and who's flexible- being able to join any unit. Archmage has been someting of a revelation: my initial list has a Lvl 2 with Seerstaff and Banner of Sorcery. I had to lose the banner and a bunch of other stuff (command models, skeinsliver) to get the archmage, but for that I get much better magic defence and the potential for getting and pulling off the big spells.

SA-getting the bus but keeping the multi-faceted support is what this list is all about! I reckon 8th is going to be a lot more about combinations than 7th was. I tried to keep this in mind even when I was blowing points on vanity projects like silver helm tanks...

Drear & Flame- you've both hit on both sides of my problem: I had to slash command groups to get my archmage and now I can't get him the silver wand unless I slash command groups further. As things stand I'm not willing to do this since the Guardian is too useful for challenges: firstly some enemy heroes will think twice and, secondly, against massive monster-mount opponents, the champ will limit casualties for a turn that may otherwise cripple a small 12-man unit. I see the archmage as supplementary in this list- though I'll playtest a bit more and reserve the right to change my mind.

Drear, my spearelves have a musican, but nothing else does. Basically, this is because all my units except the spears fight/shoot in 2 ranks, which is no problem in 8th and therefore not worthy of a reform. Meanwhile my swordmasters have, so far, been too busy pacing it around the field at march-pace to ever want to waste time reforming. I admit I've lost a certain flexibility here (with the SMs being the only unit which loses attacks by being in the 2nd rank), but I literally needed every point to get the archmage. I ended up with enough points for the Bladelord's potion but not enough for the SM musician.

I'm taking this list to my local GW soon and hope to get a battle report up and running soon after. More thoughts and suggested changes would be welcome in the meantime.

[SpellArcher]

my initial list has a Lvl 2 with Seerstaff and Banner of Sorcery. I had to lose the banner and a bunch of other stuff (command models, skeinsliver) to get the archmage, but for that I get much better magic defence and the potential for getting and pulling off the big spells.

It's not so different in points is it? I guess the advantage of Sorcery is that you're sure of getting a reliably high amount of power dice every turn. If you can get a back up caster with useful spells the Seermage is fine IMHO. The Archmage is obviously better in defence though.

[Seredain]

Aha!

Ahahahahaha!

I have found a way to get Silver Wand into the list. It was painful and involved playing around with core troops until I found 3 points and my head had nearly fallen off. Also managed to boost my spears up to 35 from 30, which makes me feel a lot better about their line-breaking and punishment-taking abilities. Archers have taken a slight drop in numbers but, after all this work, I don't care. I did get a musician into the Archmage's archer unit, which is at least something.

Original post edited.

[Baalan]

i know only too well what you mean Seredain...and i can relate to your elation hehehe

my 2p on your edited list would be the typical ''RBT's...seriously?'' and then we move onwards to ''A single Great Eagle? ...NUTS!''

cheers

[Seredain]

i know only too well what you mean Seredain...and i can relate to your elation hehehe

my 2p on your edited list would be the typical ''RBT's...seriously?'' and then we move onwards to ''A single Great Eagle? ...NUTS!''

cheers

Thanks for the sympathy!

On Repeater Bolt Throwers

My reasons for continuing to take Repeater Bolt Throwers lie in the fact that they play a niche role which is particilarly beneficial to High Elves, who excel in combat beyond the suggestion of their points-cost but who die easily to shooting and harrasment. Specifically, my reasons are as follows:

1 - RBTs were never very good at being shot at so, in that sense, their change from 3 wounds to 2 doesn't really affect the way I use them.

2 - They fulfill a role that no other High Elf unit is capable of- applying serious force at range. Because of the long range, this force can be used in conjunction with any one of my units on targets of my choice- either prior to a charge, in conjunction with other ranged attacks or in laying down an early wound or two on scary targets. In this way RBT's can tip the scales in my favour on a point of the battlefield chosen by me, providing excellent flexibility.

3 - Added to point 2, RBTs are perfectly adapted to taking down units that I want out of the way but don't want to have to waste a valuable unit on- in particular enemy flyers, scouts, skirmishers and ranked missile troops. As such they are the best thing I can buy for giving me more free movement of the board for my combat units, which I'll favour against the enemy combat troops if they haven't been shot up by crossbows. Eagles can do this, but tend to be sacrificial units: RBTs can do this and survive.

4 - In conjunction with my archers and Archmage (even with Life), I can lay down a serious amount of ranged fire. This will eradicate enough enemy shooting to render attacks by my combat units possible. RBTs are effectively the best shield with which I can protect my swordmasters from enemy archers. By removing said archers. Incidentally, Life lore can also be used to ping back that lost wound onto my machines.

5 - Against machine-heavy armies, RBTs provide very tempting targets. If they draw fire away from my combat units while they advance (and who benefit from 8th Ed allowing faster cross-board movement as much as the enemy units do), they've done ok. Before they go they'll focus on enemy missile troops as per usual.

6 - An important one for me: against opponents without all that much long-ranged shooting (Warriors, Lizards), RBTs will curse the enemy with itchy feet. These opponents will tend to feel that they have to advance or be slowly ground down. When they do advance, it allows me to exploit open flanks and gaps that open up, as well as taking advantage of the closer range for spells and missiles. If the enemy feels able to stay put, on the other hand, it is easier for him to choose benefical positions or castle up to the point where attacking him becomes much harder.

I hope that explains it. Basically, with only 200 points I've turned my army from a 'combat only' to a 'shooty army'. The tactical flexibility this provides is exactly what my combat-dedicated elites need to give them the edge.

EDIT:

I just found this wonderful quote from Tethlis on the "how to combat DE" tactics thread. It perfectly describes the usefulness of repeaters and the oxymoron that can be current fashionable thinking in 8th Ed.

Dark Elves are also an opponent which is making me shift more and more towards heavy archer units, and avoiding spearmen and Lothern Seaguard altogether. Since noone is taking bolt throwers anymore, the 30 inch range on longbows means the difference between advancing through a hail of repeater crossbow fire, and making the Dark Elves come to you. It's a HUGE difference in how the battle unfolds.

So the gist here is that "we're awesome at combat, but just have to worry about taking out enemy shooting". I heartily agree with the philosophy, but would suggest that taking repeaters is a better idea than relying only on archers, since they have better than 30" range and are more killy. As suggested - together with my 25 archers - my 200 point investment can make a huge difference to how the battle unfolds.

They aren't perfect for their points, but repeaters fill a niche that is particularly important to killy-but-fragile High Elves.

[Ulanth]

Really quick question...how how was your unit immune to the Engines weapon? It isn't a spell...it is only a magical attack...Unless it got FAQed somewhere and I missed it.

[Seredain]

Really quick question...how how was your unit immune to the Engines weapon? It isn't a spell...it is only a magical attack...Unless it got FAQed somewhere and I missed it.

This qusetion actually got settled (on this forum at least) a while back, though I'm not sure where you'd find the reference. I'll have a look around - anyone else know where the answer is? There seems to be consensus on this where I play, at least- I hope we're playing it right!

[SpellArcher]

It was in the 7th edition FAQ for the Lizardmen book. I found it convincing but I had quite influential people argue it against me for some reason.

I doubt it would hold for 8th, which sucks.

[Seredain]

It was in the 7th edition FAQ for the Lizardmen book. I found it convincing but I had quite influential people argue it against me for some reason.

I doubt it would hold for 8th, which sucks.

Would it not hold for 8th?!? Arrgh! Crikey I hope that isn't true. I don't suppose they left it out of the 8th Ed FAQ because the last 7th Ed FAQ had put the issue beyond doubt? I'm surprised they wouldn't think to settle it if it remained an issue, though having read this back it sounds suspiciously like wishful thinking...

Anyway thanks for the heads-up- I'll shove a topic in the Rules section and see what the boffins reckon. I'll (obviously) argue that Burning Alignment is a spell (all be it one that can't be dispelled), on the basis that it happens in the magic phase and that the damage comes in the form magical attacks (that has been FAQ'd at least). Also that since it isn't a war machine, I can't think what else it could be and still comply with the Warhammer World's categorisation of unit types and turn sequences.

In the worst case scenario, at least the engine's range is comfortably below the average charge range of my cavalry. That's something.

EDIT We've settled this in the Rules section: Burning Aligment is not a spell and therefore bypasses the Banner of the World Dragon. Bad? Yeah a bit, but cavalry princes should remember to just challenge the beast, cut the Mage Priest down- easily done with Giant Blade- and the engine is neutralised.

[Seredain]

On Silver Helms

I thought I'd transplant my reasons for liking silver helms, written for the 'Classical Theme' thread in the tactics section, on the basis that people on this thread might wonder why they're in my list at all. Well:

Certainly you shouldn't take Silver Helms just for their steadfast-breaking abilities. The point of taking helms, really, is the combat cavalry prince. Your own Alexander. If you take a combat cavalry prince, you'll want to put him in a cavalry unit that'll protect him from outrageous slings and arrows. The first point is that more wounds with more armour saves are better at this.

With my Prince (cav equipment, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Other Trickster's Shard), I created a character to take down big nasties- something that High Elves traditionally struggle with considering that many armies can mass several horrible beasts all at once, eg Lizardmen with their 2 Stegs + Kroxigor. The fact that the Prince rides a horse means he can get to grips with an ancient steg (unstomped) before it can start blowing up my elves and tramping them down. The weak-point? Magic. Death magic and a bunch of other stuff will kill my Prince. Step up BsB and his BotWD (plus cavalry kit & great weapon). I now have 7 Str6/7 attacks, immunity to magic and an armoured character who can challenge out the biggest beasts.

Now I want the cheapest effective bodyguard to ride with the (expensive) characters: large enough to take hits but still cover them. Since I want a balanced force, chucking in a big unit of DPs is points-overkill, especially if I'm shoving some of them in the rear rank where they can't fight to their full potential (unless I want to spend more points on a musician to allow reforms).

The Silver Helm tank is not meant to charge horde units in the front all by itself (no elf cavalry unit is unless you've spent too many points on it). Its job is to run over smaller but tougher targets before turning inward in conjunction with a frontal assault by my infantry. Against opponents where the characters excel (smaller high toughness/ armoured units like monsters or Chaos Knights), the extra str5 attacks of dragon princes aren't that influential compared with the helms. Against weaker opponents, meanwhile, the helms do fine and the characters have pretty much got it covered. As such the unit is flexible while being more reasonably priced than a DP tank.

On the 2-rank setup: importantly, it allows all the helms to fight where 2 ranks of Dragon Princes would suffer from wasted attacks. Why 2 rank-formation at all? Because it means I can more easily combine it with other units in a combined-arms army (my chariot, any of my infantry) on frontal charges where I need them, attaining greater force concentration than a single rank would allow while maintaining the 'safety in numbers' principle for the prince. Finally, the 2nd rank actually survives the first couple of turns intact quite often. If the intact unit does fight a ridden monster, I've got +3 combat res (rank, 2 standards) before the Prince (who challenges) does anything- and most monstrous mounts are not stubborn.

If you do charge a ranked infantry unit of less than horde size, with your characters and knights doing plenty of killing you'll also find that having a full rank of knights after attacks back breaks steadfast very often indeed. Against slightly larger units of 25 or so it only takes a little shooting to bring that goal well within reach of the helm unit, though not the reach of a small unit of dragon princes (who only need to lose a couple of models to lose their one rank).

Finally, a nice cheap unit of 5 DPs riding alongside the helm tank provides flexibility and target saturation (do you target the prince's tank unit, which is deadlier but where each wound is worth less, or the less scary but individually more killy DPs?).

[SpellArcher]

Burning Aligment is not a spell and therefore bypasses the Banner of the World Dragon.

But immunity to stuff like Dwellers is fantastic for the Silver Helms.

Really like this thread. A list written to play in a distinct, slightly unusual way, with tactical analysis. Excellent!

[Jaith]

I love my silverhelms too! But I had 2 units of 9, one for my general (Noble) and one for my BSB. My BSB had the Exact same set up as your Prince except I used a Great Weapon instead of the Giant Blade. My noble used the Classical Starlance+Talisman of Loec build.

The reason I didn't have a prince was because I wanted to field a cheap Heavens Archmage (lv3) with Vortex Shard, and I was playing 2k.

Overall it does pretty well. I still hate Dweller's when it shows up. But having two big/fast threatening units is a lot of fun. People don't realize what a bargain Silverhelms are now (average cost!) with their rerolls from ASF. Without a doubt, with universal rerolls, and supporting attacks, the gap between Silverhelms and dragon princes has shrunk a lot.

[Seredain]

Cheers guys! When I get round to fighting my next battle (hopefully Thursday), I'll start posting battle reports and hopefully get some critiques going in this thread about how the list performed.

In the meantime, though, let's love the helms! I think big cavalry units do have something to offer, with supporting attacks and the increased movement/ marching abilites of 8th edition. Since they can cross the board so quickly and steamroll enemy flanker units before combining with your infantry on the bigger blocks, they can really turn the tables for your elite infantry.

Hopefully I'll have some more performances to put up soon and match the rhetoric...

[NightHawk45]

On Silver Helms

With my Prince (cav equipment, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Other Trickster's Shard), I created a character to take down big nasties- something that High Elves traditionally struggle with considering that many armies can mass several horrible beasts all at once, eg Lizardmen with their 2 Stegs + Kroxigor. The fact that the Prince rides a horse means he can get to grips with an ancient steg (unstomped) before it can start blowing up my elves and tramping them down. The weak-point? Magic. Death magic and a bunch of other stuff will kill my Prince. Step up BsB and his BotWD (plus cavalry kit & great weapon). I now have 7 Str6/7 attacks, immunity to magic and an armoured character who can challenge out the biggest beasts.

Will you explain where these attacks come from? I seem to be missing something right now. Thanks

[GalagaGalaxian]

The Prince and the BSB Noble, each armed with +2 or +3 STR weapon.

[Trebs]

How wide and deep do you run the spearmen block , 7x5 or ?
The same question whit the 12 White Lions(13 incl. the Guardian), will it be a 2x 6+1 or 5x2+3 ?

I hope to get this list tested tomorrow.

[Malcontent]

I like this list, however if I have done the math correctly, you have 24 points to spare. Unless you haven't mentioned something that you have included, such as shields for the Silver Helms, you can add a bunch more useful stuff, Musicians for your Archers and Dragon Princes. Even if you have included the shields, you still have 8 points, and can include the Musician for the archers, and upgrade the BSB to Dragon Armour rather than Heavy.

Edit: I just added up your list just to be sure, and it seems to be 6 points over, so I think that I must have screwed up on the math. A single archer would be enough to make it valid again, however, that would make one of the units not get a complete rank for close combat, so skink killing would be slightly worse.

[Seredain]

How wide and deep do you run the spearmen block , 7x5 or ?
The same question whit the 12 White Lions(13 incl. the Guardian), will it be a 2x 6+1 or 5x2+3 ?

I hope to get this list tested tomorrow.

I've PM'd Trebs already but, for the record, I'll say here that I field the spears in column if I'm combo charging with one of my attacking units (especially the chariot) against large T3 units, or 7 across and 5 ranks deep against smaller units or other units they'll remain steadfast against and against which they'd rather have the extra attacks.

I like this list, however if I have done the math correctly, you have 24 points to spare. Unless you haven't mentioned something that you have included, such as shields for the Silver Helms, you can add a bunch more useful stuff, Musicians for your Archers and Dragon Princes. Even if you have included the shields, you still have 8 points, and can include the Musician for the archers, and upgrade the BSB to Dragon Armour rather than Heavy.

Edit: I just added up your list just to be sure, and it seems to be 6 points over, so I think that I must have screwed up on the math. A single archer would be enough to make it valid again, however, that would make one of the units not get a complete rank for close combat, so skink killing would be slightly worse.

Judging by the amount of time it took me to find the 10 points for the Silver Wand, I hope that I've spent all my points! To my calculation it was 2500 exactly, but I'll check it over. Yes, the Silver Helms carry shields- I just forgot to mention that in the list. I've edited them in now.

Edit: Re-done my sums- pretty sure I've got them right, unless repetition is turning my brain to cheese. I've put the figures up to hopefully make things a bit clearer.

[Malcontent]

Edit: Re-done my sums- pretty sure I've got them right, unless repetition is turning my brain to cheese. I've put the figures up to hopefully make things a bit clearer.

Much clearer, and they also have the side effect of proving my inability to do math. Sorry about causing you to recheck your numbers, I seem to have posted before I made absolutely sure of my own math.

[Trebs]

Whoot .. and I played the Silver Helms whit only armor save 3+ yesterday!
Well, will have to change that in my list too.

I played this list yesterday against a wood elf player in my local warhammer club. Whit a great succes.
The Silver Helms all lost to treekeen(dunno, if spelled correct), and I had a bit of problem whit 2 treemen, even my RBT had a problem because of his +5 ward save against non-magic attacks.

The Swordmasters and White Lion teared through 2x10 dryads and the big shield block teared a group of eternal guards to pieces in 2 turns. He only help because of his BsB..

I was a bit affraid of putting the Archmage in the group of Archer from the start, but I was surpriced how well it turned out in the end. As the other unit moved a bit forward, he could buff nearly all of them in the end.
And a group of 13 Archer + Archmage whit +4 tougness and +4 regeneration is a great anvil unit for a treemen + a great eagle(in the flank).

Must: Get Thorne of Vines in and keep it up. It will boost your spells/buffs SO much, + you don't have to fear miscast that much after that.

[Seredain]

Latest Game - Slann/Engine Lizardmen

Another couple of games against Lizardmen over the last two weeks (there are lots of them where I play). Both were victories, but I'll focus on the first game since it was a nice 'textbook' case of applying High Elf strengths against Lizardmen weaknesses. He had (roughly):

Slann - Calming Cogitation, Knows all spells, Life Lore (with TG)
Skink Priest on Engine Steg, Heavens
Saurus hero - Sun Scimitar, Enchanted Shield (with Saurus spears)

20 or 25 Saurus Spears - FC
20 HW Saurus - FC
16 (I think) Temple Guard - Std, Champ
3 x 10 skink skirmishers (maybe 4 units?)

2 Kroxigors with Skink Cohort
4 Terradons
2 x Salamanders
8 Chameleon Skinks

First off, our great range vs their short range. A useful thread is going on about High Elf shooting at the moment ("Is It Worth It?"). This battle was a great demonstration of why it's good. I got Turn 1 and proceeded in the first part of the game to remove his 4 terradons, 1 of 2 salamanders (DPs got the other), and large handfuls of skink skirmishers before they could make an impact on the game. The chameleon skinks were dosed by a flying 'shield of thorns' bomb in the shape of my eagle and were hunted down. He then flew at the Slann's temple guard to hold them at range for a turn (my chariot similarly charging and pinning his Steg), giving my archers, RBTs and dragon princes time to clear a path through all the lizard crap (more skirmishers) and give my attacking units room to maneuvre.

So here was the second strength: maneuverability (especially now that the skirmishers were absent). The silver helms, with the Prince and BsB, ploughed through a skink/ kroxigor cohort before marching round the rear of the lizard army, immune to the protestations of lightning from the stegadon priest, who'd wasted a turn trying to shadow them. By turn 4, the Steg was free (the engine had blown up my poor chariot btw), so I threw a couple of bolts at it and landed 3 wounds, eventually finishing him with life - toughened white lions (magic phase was useful but not amazing - this was a good moment). The end-game was a turn 5-6 monster-clash all along the line between two blocks of saurus and the Slann's temple guard against my cavalry, spears and swordmasters.

On my left, 20 saurus spears had been marching at my Archmage's archers and had failed a charge, but then they were set upon in the flank by the dragon princes (healed back up to 5), and in the rear by all 8 silver helms with the BsB. The BsB cut down the saurus BsB and the saurus themselves were crushed and run down. The central saurus (18 with HW) had charged my spears (7 wide 5 deep) and were actually slowly getting ground down when the battle ended. The big one, though, was another swordmaster/ temple guard face-off. The swords charged the front and my prince charged the rear. Massive lizard death! I think my shooting must have popped off a couple of TGs because, with admittedly a very decent amount of hits, I completely totalled them in one round. The Slann, all by his lonesome, tried to shuffle off by my prince casually rode up behind him and cut him in half. Massacre to me!

A word on his magic. I got ok dispel rolls but I also found it interesting how he treated his spell-casting. The short point was that, since early on I was concentrating all my strength against his weak units, he often wasted his Slann's Life spells. Each turn he'd be worried that I was going to unleash damage (with my cav and shooting) on his more valuable blocks, so he proved reluctant to regen or protect his weaker units which were then my real targets. I simply let him boost his TG toughness and focussed my dispel dice on other things (throne and his engine's heaven spells) which I found I was able to manage since, as far as I was concerned, he'd wasted his dice on at least one spell per turn. He thought he'd successfully been protecting his Slann bunker while I saw his caution as an opportunity. By the time I got into combat with his Slann, the Steg was already dead and I found managing his phase quite easy - the AM having kept out of Calming range and successfully cast thrones on a regular basis from turn 1, forcing the dispel on his turn and draining further power dice.

[Seredain]

Whoot .. and I played the Silver Helms whit only armor save 3+ yesterday!
Well, will have to change that in my list too.

I played this list yesterday against a wood elf player in my local warhammer club. Whit a great succes.
The Silver Helms all lost to treekeen(dunno, if spelled correct), and I had a bit of problem whit 2 treemen, even my RBT had a problem because of his +5 ward save against non-magic attacks.

The Swordmasters and White Lion teared through 2x10 dryads and the big shield block teared a group of eternal guards to pieces in 2 turns. He only help because of his BsB..

I was a bit affraid of putting the Archmage in the group of Archer from the start, but I was surpriced how well it turned out in the end. As the other unit moved a bit forward, he could buff nearly all of them in the end.
And a group of 13 Archer + Archmage whit +4 tougness and +4 regeneration is a great anvil unit for a treemen + a great eagle(in the flank).

Must: Get Thorne of Vines in and keep it up. It will boost your spells/buffs SO much, + you don't have to fear miscast that much after that.

Congrats on the win. Really sneaky use of your archers! I've never had the balls to try and use them as an anvil against something like a treeman, but that's a genius use of Throne, Stone and Regen. You're right about the significance of the Throne of Vines - if you get it off successfully, it can be game-changing.

[Trebs]

Whoot .. and I played the Silver Helms whit only armor save 3+ yesterday!
Well, will have to change that in my list too.

I played this list yesterday against a wood elf player in my local warhammer club. Whit a great succes.
The Silver Helms all lost to treekeen(dunno, if spelled correct), and I had a bit of problem whit 2 treemen, even my RBT had a problem because of his +5 ward save against non-magic attacks.

The Swordmasters and White Lion teared through 2x10 dryads and the big shield block teared a group of eternal guards to pieces in 2 turns. He only help because of his BsB..

I was a bit affraid of putting the Archmage in the group of Archer from the start, but I was surpriced how well it turned out in the end. As the other unit moved a bit forward, he could buff nearly all of them in the end.
And a group of 13 Archer + Archmage whit +4 tougness and +4 regeneration is a great anvil unit for a treemen + a great eagle(in the flank).

Must: Get Thorne of Vines in and keep it up. It will boost your spells/buffs SO much, + you don't have to fear miscast that much after that.

Congrats on the win. Really sneaky use of your archers! I've never had the balls to try and use them as an anvil against something like a treeman, but that's a genius use of Throne, Stone and Regen. You're right about the significance of the Throne of Vines - if you get it off successfully, it can be game-changing.

Well, wasn't much of a choice I had .. His Great Eagle had taken down 1 of my RbTs and overrunned the second + a Treeman was in charge range, so I had to make some preparations to protect my archer & Archmage.
And it was in 5th round, so if the archer could hold the treeman & GE in just 1½ round then all the points would be saved.
I could have moved my Archmage out of the group, but whit a higher risk for my archer to break.

So was a calculated risk to run at the end stage of the game.

[Flame of the Asuryan]

Update How is Seredain, Cavalry Prince of Ulthuan doing lately?

[Seredain]

Yo yo! Perfect timing - was just writing up my update.

Latest Edit

I've played a couple more games over the holidays (Orcs and Empire), both infantry based and fairly war machine-heavy. Wish I'd taken some photos because they were interesting games and, probably, quite typical of the current 8th metagame. In both cases I was forced to be quite aggressive with my cavalry because of the enemy machines while the noble white lions held my defensive flank, the archmage frantically trying to keep them at full strength with regeneration. Thankfully I got the first turn in both cases (few eagle drops...) and managed to overwhelm a flank by shooting up the units I was facing and then killing enough in the charge with the characters, helms and DPs (chariot got bombed on both times alas) to overwhelm them. RBTs critical there.

Once my cavalry got in I had to find ways of silencing the empire player's machines so, while the infantry was moving up, I used my BsB and Prince to hack them up. Since the BsB only had a paltry 3+ save, he was eventually brought down. This was annoying as I was very pleased to see how useful individual cavalry characters can be... So, I made the following changes:

Prince- B. Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286
Lvl 4 Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Lore of Life - 280
BsB- B. Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon - 180

35 Spearelves- Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 345
13 Archers, Musician - 148 (Archmage here)
12 Archers - 132

14 Swordmasters- Bladelord - 222
12 White Lions- Guardian, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 214
8 Silver Helms- Standard, Musician, Shields - 208 (Prince and BsB here)
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

2 RBTs - 200
1 Eagle - 50

= 2500 points

First- the Prince. The Other Trickster's Shard is great against characters and daemons. However against most troops, who just cart around toughness and armour, it isn't in use. In terms of turns actually spent fighting (except against daemons), this is 90% of the time. The Talisman of Loec is better against characters- truly devastating with the sword- and I figure you're more likely to face characters than daemons. Also, Loec will be more useful for finishing off large monsters- note that it works on regen when the shard doesn't. Life is there to grow back the lost wound if the AM is in range.

Pigeon Plucker Pendant is a lovely item. Against most enemies, a 1+ re-rollable armour save is fine - points spent on a ward save are effectively wasted. Against characters, the prince's Str 7 loec'd attacks should have their face off before they can fight back. A ward save does begin to look attractive, however, against the biggest and baddest monsters, who'll have riders and who'll probably fly. So, against the really hard opponents you're looking at saving your prince with only a 5 point item - awesome. The rest of the time you may not be using it, but you've only spent 5 points so it doesn't matter.

Ironcurse Icon is there so the silver helms don't have to go all Light Brigade (and they bascially acted as a meat shield for the characters in the last 2 games). If it saves only one knight in 4 games, it's made its points back. As for the rest of the BsB's equipment, he now has a 2+ re-rollable AS in combat (1+ vs shooting) and is, therefore, far more versatile a combat force in his own right.

AM picks up the anti-magic slack by swapping the silver wand for a scroll. Spare points go on a musician for the helm block, which I've missed in the past- free reforms are basically guaranteed with the Prince and BsB there.

In short, better and more flexible combat ability for the loss of the World Dragon banner. I think that 8 times out of 10 I'll find the new combo more useful than the old. Since fewer magic dice are thrown, dispel scrolls have become correspondingly more powerful in 8th - at 20 points it's very useful and hopefully will do the trick along with my +5 to dispel...

Hopefully more games coming soon - and I'll remember my camera next time...

[Bolt Thrower]

This is an excellent thread! I've been a fan of SH buses in the past (usually the BSB Battle Banner Type) but I haven't tried one in 8th so this is very interesting. I've been utilizing SH more as war machine hunters than anything else running them in small groups with a narrow frontage.

One of my main questions is in regards to the Prince setup. Both in your mounted and suggested foot version (from another thread) you do not suggest a ward save, but instead include items that provide the armour save reroll. In most of my games, it seems the ward save ends up being the winner while armour is negated. Do you find that your Prince is ever in dire need of a ward or do you find that the reroll is sufficient?

Are you settled on Life or do you plan to try any other lores? I especially think Metal could be great vs. LM. Enchanted Blades on the RBT could be fun for volleys basically negating long range penalties and making them resolve at -3 to the save.