Re: A New Blog
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:11 am
I really love those oldschool models! It's a nice army. Too bad about the outcome, but as you say, you'll need to scrape of the rust.
This is probably a big factor. Especially with a relatively unfamiliar list. It's a game of skill after all, where small differences can lead to very different outcomes. Things like holding with the goblins against the knights charge for instance. I think if you'd been playing regularly and had used O&G lists a handful more times then you would have won this one. As discussed, I think you had several opportunities this game to change the outcome (hindsight is a wonderful thing ).SpellArcher wrote: This game showed how rusty I was, having not played in a year. Tom was sharper and was right more often than me over rules points, something I normally pride myself on. Still, it was educational.
Thanks Flame. I kind of wish I’d brought a fully painted army but I was really keen to use what I’d been working on. A shame to lose again but I’ve gone through whole tournaments before without a win. Sometimes it just happens.Flame of the Asuryan wrote:really love those oldschool models! It's a nice army. Too bad about the outcome, but as you say, you'll need to scrape of the rust.
Thanks Rod. I’m a bit old-fashioned for such things but I’ll give it some thought.Prince of Spires wrote:I know you're usually strapped for time, which makes it hard to get games in. But if you want to play a practice game online at any point (I think Universal battle is still going), just let me know. We can probably work something out. Or even play a game over several evenings if you want.
Your wish is my command...Prince of Spires wrote:Also, if memory serves me right, this was a 3 game tournament. So get writing on the third part of the series
It's not a replacement for a real in person game. But it's a nice way to get in some practice with a list. So, the offer stands if you ever want to get a couple of games in.SpellArcher wrote:Thanks Rod. I’m a bit old-fashioned for such things but I’ll give it some thought.Prince of Spires wrote:I know you're usually strapped for time, which makes it hard to get games in. But if you want to play a practice game online at any point (I think Universal battle is still going), just let me know. We can probably work something out. Or even play a game over several evenings if you want.
Prince of Spires wrote:For the lists, I'm assuming just a default battle line game, since nothing is specified.
SpellArcher wrote:Game 3 - Battle Line
I agree Rod. It’s not an especially awesome shooting phase but Nikki was wary of it.Prince of Spires wrote:I think in this game you have a ranged advantage. And some actual viable targets for your shooting. The chukka's can probably get a couple of wounds here and there. And they might even get lucky with a flank on some of the cavaly or wolves. Same with the goblins. They're good enough for the wolves and perhaps the odd wound on the dark riders. Which is what you'd expect from them I think. And the rock lobber is fine for dealing with the bigger blocks.
I was quite careful about how I deployed my key units Rod, in particular keeping the enemy knights in mind.Prince of Spires wrote:It's a very mobile list though. So that's the main worry. Make sure you keep your lines compact and occupy / redirect some of the units. So, protect your flanks. If you can deal with stuff one on one then you'll probably come out on top. Also, the characters can be nasty, but that's not really a surprise for VC. So that's something to keep in mind here.
SpellArcher wrote:Prince of Spires wrote:For the lists, I'm assuming just a default battle line game, since nothing is specified.SpellArcher wrote:Game 3 - Battle Line
This was my conclusion as well. Deny her the full use of her mobility in the knights and you have some advantage. A lvl 4 with death is nasty. But he's a bit far out on the flank perhaps, so he'll need some boosted versions. Also, I see no scroll mentioned in the VC army. So you might have that advantage as well.SpellArcher wrote:I was quite careful about how I deployed my key units Rod, in particular keeping the enemy knights in mind.
Overall I think this may be a +1 match-up.
What does this thing actually do?SpellArcher wrote:Incarnate Elemental.
I agree with the analysis. I think the "blame" is two-fold. Supporting attacks and steadfast. With steadfast, you can usually hold vs an initial charge. Which matters for cavalry and it gives an opportunity to bring reinforcements into the fight.SpellArcher wrote:Blood Knights
Some units just do well and some badly, for some reason. So far so good with my Wolf Riders! The footsloggers not so much...Prince of Spires wrote:The wolves mightily impressed me though. Scoring a whole unit! That must be a first
Sort of mid-level monster specs? Hover. It has a (short) ranged attack that hurts armoured stuff. Plus a one-off nuclear version with 3D6” area effect that also damages itself.Prince of Spires wrote:What does this thing actually do?
I feel it’s slightly more complex than that. Swordmasters have WS6 and fight better than Lions as the rear ranks are depleted. Deflect Shots of course does help when rocking a High Magic Archmage in the unit and Seredain always said that for his style of play he’d always take them over Lions, though he ultimately concluded that Phoenix Guard made even more sense. Curu thought the S5 was just not enough against the strongest enemies, though adding World Dragon makes a huge difference. Ultimately though, Stubborn Lions are just more forgiving, there’s less margin for error with SM’s.Prince of Spires wrote:As they are now for a bigger unit they are just weaker, non-stubborn WL with 25% more attacks
Exactly Rod. Blood Knights are 50pts per model, Demigryphs only 58! Go figure. A classic example is Chaos Knights, which are playable but when you’ve got Skullcrushers competing for the same points, why would you?Prince of Spires wrote:So, as a result, these heavy cavalry units are relegated to support duty MSU style in favor of blocks of medium cavalry or monstrous cavalry.
I understand the logic (and I would probably have done the same), but this feels risky to me. The beasts should probably be able to kill enough ghouls to tie the combat and prevent wounds from crumble. And then you're stuck in a combat you can't really win. Even more so since you can't get all models in combat vs the flank. Of course, you keep the beasts busy for a while. But is it worth the investment and couldn't the knights have been of more use elsewhere? I'm not sure. Perhaps writing off the ghouls as lost and concentrating on the rest of your army would have been a better choice.SpellArcher wrote: Black Knights went into the flank of the already engaged Beasts.
A mid level monster indeed. Sounds a bit like a flamespire in powerlevel with some specific special rules for it. Like the flamespire, I'm not too convinced of mid level monsters.SpellArcher wrote: The Incarnate Elemental killed three Horrors but the unit had the cheek to roll double one for their Daemonic Instability and regained all three!
It always is which is part of what makes it fun and how there still can be multiple competitive lists. If it was simple then there would be a straightforward best option.SpellArcher wrote:I feel it’s slightly more complex than that.
Definitely a biggie.Prince of Spires wrote:And getting rid of the enemy lvl4 is pretty nice.
Agree completely.Prince of Spires wrote:I understand the logic (and I would probably have done the same), but this feels risky to me. The beasts should probably be able to kill enough ghouls to tie the combat and prevent wounds from crumble. And then you're stuck in a combat you can't really win. Even more so since you can't get all models in combat vs the flank. Of course, you keep the beasts busy for a while. But is it worth the investment and couldn't the knights have been of more use elsewhere? I'm not sure. Perhaps writing off the ghouls as lost and concentrating on the rest of your army would have been a better choice.
I agree but the second attack is important too.Prince of Spires wrote:WS 6 nice. But S6 is better in almost every single way. Strength has a dual impact in that it increases your chance to wound AND it reduces armour saves. With anything with a 4+ armour save or better you'll notice the difference.
There are some outliers, like being hit on 4+ instead of 3+ by enemy WS 6. Hand of Glory can also affect this and is a spell a player bringing Swordmasters will likely generate. Miasma is quite common on the other side. But overall yes, no way would I suggest WS 6 approaches the utility of S6 on it’s own.Prince of Spires wrote:Because of the to hit chart, the WS difference on the other hand only matters in a WS6 vs WS5 combat. You hit on a 3+ and get hit on a 4+ In all other cases the outcome is exactly the same (even vs WS 2 for instance).
Seredain wrote extensively about this. Lions are a solid all-round unit, though they have some weaknesses (elves in particular). But my Swordmaster play is derived from his and essentially means going all-in. The Swordmasters are there because they are good at killing a wide variety of enemy, fast. A list with them in is necessarily aggressive. Stubborn is less important here because if this unit isn’t winning combats the army is in trouble already. It’s set up to synergise with the High Archmage and Deflect Shots, Ironcurse Icon etc just add to this. It’s already formidable and if you can add World Dragon there are few units it can’t deal with.Prince of Spires wrote:Stubborn adds a lot of reliability to the list. When your dice screw you over it's nice to have a backup plan. Which maybe makes them better for tournament style lists. It can make the difference between winning and losing when you lose a big fight and instead of praying for double 1 you can just pick up the dice and say "stubborn LD8".
Fun but seems like not really worth it. Perhaps if you get it into its ideal target (which seems to be heavily armoured small units). But other then that not the best option. Though it is a lovely modelSpellArcher wrote:Nikki went for it and detonated the Incarnate Elemental.
Good point. They are great if you need to get through bigger units fast. And Seredain was a master of setting up combined charges and controlling the movement phase. Which means you SM get the fights they want.SpellArcher wrote:Seredain wrote extensively about this. Lions are a solid all-round unit, though they have some weaknesses (elves in particular). But my Swordmaster play is derived from his and essentially means going all-in.
Again a good point. Though perhaps tournament lists have become more sensible, more army like and less die hard. Most tournaments before AOS hit, especially if you read reports from Curu, Swordmaster and the likes, featured monstrous cavalry, monsters and character busses with tanky characters in there. WL are a logical fit in there (especially the BoTWD horde variety). I think the meta has shifted from there and the competitive excesses have largely disappeared from 8th edition tournaments. Which creates a meta that lets SM shine more.SpellArcher wrote:As for tournaments, it depends what kind. I’ve tended to face a lot of Infantry in the events I’ve played, which favours Swordmasters. In tournaments full of multiple single model lists (monsters, tank characters) for example, Lions would be better.
The latter! I was constantly shaking my elf head at the number of misses.Prince of Spires wrote:Was all your shooting gone at this point or did it simply not achieve anything?
Yep. It’s radiating Ld 9 and BSB re-rolls and bunkering Foot of Gork.Prince of Spires wrote:Also, an I correct in thinking that your unit of Big'uns is still largely untouched somewhere in your backline?
Agreed.Prince of Spires wrote:Again a good point. Though perhaps tournament lists have become more sensible, more army like and less die hard. Most tournaments before AOS hit, especially if you read reports from Curu, Swordmaster and the likes, featured monstrous cavalry, monsters and character busses with tanky characters in there. WL are a logical fit in there (especially the BoTWD horde variety). I think the meta has shifted from there and the competitive excesses have largely disappeared from 8th edition tournaments. Which creates a meta that lets SM shine more.
I can definitely imagine. Elf players are spoiled in many ways. LD8 or higher across the board. Reliable shooting (though my archers never actually kill something. But they at least hit...). In combat, if you miss a lot, you simply pick up all those misses and reroll, aiming for 3+ in a lot of cases. No random movement or possibilities of your units misbehaving. HE go where you want them to go and are very consistent in their performance.SpellArcher wrote:The latter! I was constantly shaking my elf head at the number of misses.Prince of Spires wrote:Was all your shooting gone at this point or did it simply not achieve anything?
I happily recall a Daemon player describing my Eternal Guard and Treeman-toting Wood Elf army as “Point and Click”. But elf lists can get a lot nastier than that.Prince of Spires wrote:I think in part this is also what makes them annoying to play against for some people. The ASF rerolls are not overpowered per se. But when your 15 PG (or equivalent) all hit because you got to reroll those misses, it can certainly feel that way.
Thanks Rod. It has to be said my dice were mostly great and Nikki’s rotten. But leaving her Lvl 4 so vulnerable was a big mistake and we’ve already discussed whether the Black Knight charge was a good idea. Getting the solo Beast into the Blood Knight flank was helpful.Prince of Spires wrote:Congrats on the win.
I’m not certain Rod, about 7th/10 maybe? I approached the event just to enjoy playing rather than competitively as I would have done with my High Elves. Rustiness and unfamiliarity with my army obviously restricted what was possible.Prince of Spires wrote:Where did you end up placing?
I do sometimes feel a bit bad when I pcik up some dice to yet again re-roll the few misses to aim for more 3+ rolls. Or when a LD check is almost a formality with LD9 and a reroll. Or even LD8 for stuff far away on a flank. The reverse is of course that the cheapest model is 9 points per model and it doesn't fight all that much better then your average clanrat.SpellArcher wrote:I happily recall a Daemon player describing my Eternal Guard and Treeman-toting Wood Elf army as “Point and Click”.
Actually, your artillery seemed more miss-and-miss then hit-and-miss in most gamesSpellArcher wrote:Without Doom Divers the artillery will always be hit-and-miss.
This always helps of course. Though part of it also is placing yourself in a position where the dice can go your way and where a terrible roll doesn't screw you over.SpellArcher wrote:Thanks Rod. It has to be said my dice were mostly great and Nikki’s rotten
In the end it's a game. This is the whole point to me. It should be enjoyed (by both players!). The winning/losing part is secondary. Or at least, afterwards it is. While playing I'll always aim for the win While of course your expectations change depending on what you bring.SpellArcher wrote:I’m not certain Rod, about 7th/10 maybe? I approached the event just to enjoy playing rather than competitively as I would have done with my High Elves.
Prince of Spires wrote:Actually, your artillery seemed more miss-and-miss then hit-and-miss in most games
Too often! Every competitive list I’ve seen though, looks much like this:Prince of Spires wrote:I do think that in general O&G tend to be rubbish.
Hm, I think I originally intended to write that just about goblins...SpellArcher wrote:Too often!Prince of Spires wrote:I do think that in general O&G tend to be rubbish.
Depends on the opposition I think Rod. I remember them winning SCGT one year, partly because the top of the field was swimming in Warriors of Chaos, though the general was obviously very able.Prince of Spires wrote:The army is a bit too dice dependent to really compete for the top spots.
Yeah, I’m discovering that Goblins outside of 12” are totally random.Prince of Spires wrote:But pure goblin (and friends) lists suffer from low LD, which means that if things don't go your way your army can fall appart fast. Any LD test becomes a potential threat when you're LD 5 or 6.
That is an army worthy of the title. It's a riot of color that somehow works together. And the freehand is amazing. Really marvelous.SpellArcher wrote:So Best Painted was won once again by Luke for his awesome Warriors of Chaos.
It can somewhat be mitigated by using lots of items and characters spread around the army. A Goblin big boss with gleaming pennant on a flank can make all the difference. Though even for LD 7 you don't want to be making too many LD tests.SpellArcher wrote:Yeah, I’m discovering that Goblins outside of 12” are totally random.
It’s a difficult balance Rod. How many points to invest in something that is never that solid. The usual solution I’ve seen seems to be keeping a goblin block fairly central.Prince of Spires wrote:It can somewhat be mitigated by using lots of items and characters spread around the army. A Goblin big boss with gleaming pennant on a flank can make all the difference. Though even for LD 7 you don't want to be making too many LD tests.
Actually, the usual solution is to bring savage orcs instead And only use the goblins as chaff and support units. The main problem with bringing no orcs is that you end up with too many units that want to be in general or BSB range. Things like trolls just stop functioning unless they're in range of your general. But also something which should be awe-inspiring like a stubborn arachnarok needs ld help when you start losing combats and have only ld6.SpellArcher wrote: It’s a difficult balance Rod. How many points to invest in something that is never that solid. The usual solution I’ve seen seems to be keeping a goblin block fairly central.
That's kind of what I meant Rod. For example I've seen a block of Goblins with the Spider Banner for Poison goodness but only as support for the set-up I outlined earlier.Prince of Spires wrote:Actually, the usual solution is to bring savage orcs instead And only use the goblins as chaff and support units.
I agree. All-goblin lists are wildly chaotic.Prince of Spires wrote:The main problem with bringing no orcs is that you end up with too many units that want to be in general or BSB range.
Thanks! I've started the next batch:Prince of Spires wrote:I love the orcs. They feel very "Heroquest" to me. Which brings back some good memories (though I never did get those painted). I really should go dig through my parents attic for that game
I see some use for units of 5 wolf riders / spider riders. Comparable to a HE eagle in points. And almost as mobile. Yes, only LD 6. But that's not much of a downside if their purpose in the battle is to die a horrible death at whatever unit you want to keep busy. You just need to make sure not to panic other wolf rider units when dying. And you can't count on feigned flight to save the day as you could with reavers.SpellArcher wrote:That's kind of what I meant Rod. For example I've seen a block of Goblins with the Spider Banner for Poison goodness but only as support for the set-up I outlined earlier.Prince of Spires wrote:Actually, the usual solution is to bring savage orcs instead And only use the goblins as chaff and support units.
It's part of the fun And of course, you could bring loads of squigs to at least not suffer from panic testsSpellArcher wrote:All-goblin lists are wildly chaotic.
I don’t think these would hold up against the very strongest opposition. But mine have done quite well so far. The speed is great and the shortbows actually did something. Ld 6 could be an issue if trying to redirect a Terror-causer, though many of those Fly anyway. I guess a musician would leave them rallying on Ld 7, not too bad.Prince of Spires wrote:I see some use for units of 5 wolf riders / spider riders. Comparable to a HE eagle in points. And almost as mobile. Yes, only LD 6. But that's not much of a downside if their purpose in the battle is to die a horrible death at whatever unit you want to keep busy. You just need to make sure not to panic other wolf rider units when dying. And you can't count on feigned flight to save the day as you could with reavers.
They don't really need to though. Same as a GE. Their main job is to keep stuff busy for a turn. They are there to give you board control. Anything more then that (like a kill here and there) is a bonus.SpellArcher wrote:I don’t think these would hold up against the very strongest opposition.
I guess I’m doubting the ultimate utility of a Ld 6 vs Panic unit that can be flown over and won’t get a crack at any war machine in a strong list Rod. For my meta though, it’s working fine and will stay.Prince of Spires wrote:They don't really need to though. Same as a GE. Their main job is to keep stuff busy for a turn. They are there to give you board control. Anything more then that (like a kill here and there) is a bonus.
I think you’re on to something here. I was going to beef up the Goblins to 30 instead but I far prefer the Wolf Rider models, a key consideration! For now though I’m busy painting Orcs, money for more Wolf Riders will have to wait a little.Prince of Spires wrote:Perhaps adding in a second unit of wolf riders is a possible improvement to the list. It gives you another fast chaff option and maybe allows for more board controle. Though of course, the question then is what to drop.
I suspect elves will be able to deal with them but not all enemies will have such accurate shooting. At worst they die but force the foe to spend time on them and they can inhibit movement. I agree Rod, 2 is the way to go.Prince of Spires wrote:I would love to see some manglers in the list. Indeed you need something to fill the gap the beasts leave if you can't get them in. And manglers are threatening and killy enough for the role. Though they probably need to be taken care of a bit better, since you don't really want an eagle or the likes to step on them... Which might mean you need to bring 2 of them
Your wish is my command...Prince of Spires wrote:Bring on the pictures