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 Post subject: Frostheart vs Flamespyre
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:16 am 
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Okay, I have looked around for this debate and can't find any solid answers. Which phoenix is better, without characters on them. It seems to me that that the flamespyre would be good against low toughness swarm armies, and the frostheart against heavy shooting armies. I play against dwarf and skaven armies and only have enough cash to buy one kit. What do I do?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:31 am 
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I'd say Frostheart.

Debuff. ASL and -1 Strength? You mean my elves might actually survive in combat for longer periods of time?

Strength 6.

Toughness 6.

5+ armor is nothing to be ashamed of either... just ask our elite infantry.

And all of this for a few extra points.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:36 am 
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If you're concerned about price, you could check out some of the painting logs where some people used one side frost wing and the other fire wing with some blending in the middle to nice effect. Just announce whichever it is representing when you place it on the table..

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:21 am 
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Its not really the price im looking for but, thank you. i mean which do you prefer and why


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:52 am 
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Ah, Frostheart for all the reasons Malossar stated.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:38 am 
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Frostheart is a steal for the points. Flamespyre is merely adequate value. Hence, Frostheart.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:29 am 
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Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
I'd say Frostheart.

Debuff. ASL and -1 Strength? You mean my elves might actually survive in combat for longer periods of time?

Strength 6.

Toughness 6.

5+ armor is nothing to be ashamed of either... just ask our elite infantry.

And all of this for a few extra points.


All of this, plus the fact that Frostheart has 4 attacks vs. 3 attacks on Flamespyre.

While Flamespyre also has some good things going for it (Wake of Fire flyover attack, Fireborn, possibility to resurrect), overall the Frostheart is a much better value as it is very useful in more or less every matchup, while the Flamespyre is much more situational.

So if you have to pick one, and you're building an all-comers list, I think Frostheart is a much better choice.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:03 am 
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For what my opinion is worth, I'd also say the Frostheart is better. I was more inclined towards the Flamespyre first, due to playing Skaven and Slaanesh Daemons most of the time, but the Frostheart is very good for the reasons stated above, and for tying up a dangerous enemy/unit until reinforcements come.

That said, I have magnetized my phoenix (tail, wings, head) and he can come out as either Frost or Flame. Not that hard to do, and you keep the 2 possibilities with 1 kit.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:37 am 
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After trying each out in a few games, I agree with the others that the frostheart is overall the better Phoenix. I think going a couple turns against multiple cannons concentrating fire might make us wish for a flamespyre that can come back, but for all comers I still prefer the frostheart.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:42 am 
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Don't know if I'll get in trouble for posting this here or not, but I'm just gonna leave this right here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHj3l6Scjsc

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Frosthart.

It isn't close.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:18 pm 
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I believe it is situational. Sure the -1S is great. But the ASL is really inconsequential unless they also have ASF. Since Helfs are most likely to go first anyway, ASL doesn't really matter, except for the Frostheart itself.

The extra stats on the Frostheart are great. Makes it more durable, plus the armor save. However, I used the Flamespyre to great effect recently. I flew over a 35 block of dark elf spears, doing 16 hits, 12 wounds, then flew over again with Walk Between Worlds, doing 11 hits, 7 wounds. I did 19 wounds and wasn't even in combat. Plus the flamespyre would be damn useful vs regen/flammables. Haven't gotten to the point where I could use the rebirth feature yet, but I presume that to be fun as well. So for the extra 15 points, sure, on paper, the Frostheart is probably better. But that doesn't mean that it's no contest. The Flamespyre can clearly contribute effectively in many situations, possibly better than the Frostheart in a few rare circumstances. It is very much worth its cost in points. All it requires is a competent tactician :lol: :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:40 pm 
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wisetiger7 wrote:
Sure the -1S is great.
Imagine instead giving all friendly models in the same combat +1T and it seems a bit better. T4 Elves? For me, ASL is just potential icing on the cake. If you're in an all-comers list, then the Frostheart makes a big difference against other High Elves and Dark Elves (Great Weapons would go simultaneous with a lot of Dark Elves without the Frostheart). Put Wyssan's or Hand of Glory on a unit in combat with a friendly Frostheart and it's pretty scary.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Frostheart is more generally useful, imo. Flamespyre can be good in some situations, like a 5x7 ranked unit of To 3 AS 5+ DE's, combined with High magic for two remaining moves phases .... :wink:
but on the whole, I've found the better statline and armor combined with Blizzard Aura just make the Frostheart a great buy.

The Blizzard Aura has synergy with the Frostheart's own Attributes. -1 St means that To 6 can be just that much harder to wound. -1 St means that 5+ AS is just that little bit less likely to be reduced or removed. ASL means that Frostheart attacks first, and Thunderstomp is simultaneous with the enemy attacks.

The Blizzard Aura brings a lot of synergy with multiple charges as well, and not everything we can put on the table has ASF - Elven Steeds, Lions, Great Weapons or even a Dragon. -1 St goes a long way to keeping our Elite Infantry on the table.

Fireborn, Fire Wake, Rebirth are all too situational for me. Fireborn requires your opponent to be throwing Flaming Attacks at it, and why would they, knowing it has Fireborn? Fire Wake relies on your opponent having a decent target for it to be effective, and requires you keep your Phoenix out of combat for it to be used, when CC is arguably the safest place for it. Rebirth requires your Phoenix to die first. And while I agree that when it does die, you'll be glad to have it, it doesn't do squat for you until that point, and I prefer to try to keep my Phoenix alive.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:41 am 
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To be fair on the Fireborn front, opponents making all comers lists might be likely to add flaming attacks to their anti-monster plans to help against Hydra and Abominations. Also, Fireborn would be nice against dwarven cannons. I still overall prefer the Frostheart, but I've come to realize that flaming attacks are great and so is protection from flaming attacks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Frostheart is better against more "elite" armies like: Warriors, Dwarfs, Vamps, Druchii, Brets, Lizards, Ogres, and possibly Daemons

Flamespyre is much more useful against "horde" armies like: Skaven, Orcs, Vamps, Empire, Tomb Kings, Brets, Beastmen, and aside from hordes, all 3 Elf races.

I play Warriors of Chaos almost every game so I take the Frostheart almost every game. The Flamespyre is only good against "elite" armies (High toughness, good armor, and low model count) if you put an Annointed on top I've found. It effectively means the thing will never die, and it makes him hit a lot harder in close combat. Plus it is a big points denial unit with great mobility. Warriors of Chaos have a hard time handling an Annointed-Flamespyre.

I flew over a unit of 21 Nurgle Warriors with shields a while back, and the Wake of Fire killed 4 Warriors. And that is far above average. I can only imagine flying over a unit of 100 Skaven slaves.... mmmm toast.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Flamespyre if you're running a full avoidance list with plenty of reavers, shadow wardiors and skycutters and never plan to join combat.

Otherwise Frostheart.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Just wanted to comment and say that in the Walk Between Worlds spell description, it doesn't say that it gives you a fly move of 10", it's just a 10" move in which you are ethereal. This is ground movement.

In the Wake of Fire rule, it specifically says you have to move over a unit. You do not move over from the Walk Between worlds spell. I think this is pretty straight forward. You don't get the wake of fire from the spell.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:40 pm 
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Arhain wrote:
Just wanted to comment and say that in the Walk Between Worlds spell description, it doesn't say that it gives you a fly move of 10", it's just a 10" move in which you are ethereal. This is ground movement.

In the Wake of Fire rule, it specifically says you have to move over a unit. You do not move over from the Walk Between worlds spell. I think this is pretty straight forward. You don't get the wake of fire from the spell.


Probably better served in the rules sub-forum, but I disagree. It does not say a 10" move in which you are Ethereal. It states "The Target gains the Ethereal special rule until the end of the phase and can immediately move up to 10" as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase." As you stated, Wake of Fire specifies "If a Flamespyre Phoenix moves over one or more unengaged units in the Remaining Moves sub-phase, chose one of those units ..."

The Fly special rules states that "... can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement Value, or instead choose to fly. A unit that flies can move over other units and terrain as it does so, treating the entire move as taking place over open ground." (BRB, pg 70)

As such, I see no reason why you couldn't choose to Fly, just as you would during a normal remaining moves sub-phase.

However, I will also state that I think Walk Between Worlds is horribly written, and will be FAQ'ed to here and back when the FAQ comes out.


Edit - Edited the post when I obtained access to my Army book for exact quotes.


Last edited by Worloch on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:07 am 
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Worloch wrote:
Arhain wrote:
Just wanted to comment and say that in the Walk Between Worlds spell description, it doesn't say that it gives you a fly move of 10", it's just a 10" move in which you are ethereal. This is ground movement.

In the Wake of Fire rule, it specifically says you have to move over a unit. You do not move over from the Walk Between worlds spell. I think this is pretty straight forward. You don't get the wake of fire from the spell.


Probably better served in the rules sub-forum, but I disagree. It does not say a 10" move in which you are Ethereal. It says move up to 10" as if it were the remaining moves sub-phase (paraphrasing, not an exact quote either, as I don't have my book with me at the moment). As you stated, Wake of Fire specifies remaining moves, as does Walk Between Worlds.

The Fly special rules states that "... can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement Value, or instead choose to fly. A unit that flies can move over other units and terrain as it does so, treating the entire move as taking place over open ground." (BRB, pg 70)

As such, I see no reason why you couldn't choose to Fly, just as you would during a normal remaining moves sub-phase.

However, I will also state that I think Walk Between Worlds is horribly written, and will be FAQ'ed to here and back when the FAQ comes out.


It does say you get Ethereal......"The target gains Ethereal special rules".
But yes it needs a FAQ

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:14 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
It does say you get Ethereal......"The target gains Ethereal special rules".
But yes it needs a FAQ


Indeed - I wasn't contesting the Ethereal part, so I left that out, but that is also part of the same sentence. I went back and edited my post to reflect actual quotes from the Army book, now that I am home and have access to it.

There is a reasonable reading of Walk Between Worlds that you use your units own Movement Allowance characteristic for the move, and are limited to 10" (non-boosted) or 20" (boosted) by the spell - "immediately move up to 10"". The second part of that sentence, "as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase", also supports that reading (you use your units Ma in the Remaining Moves sub-phase normally). Of course, then you have questions such as, Can you march? Reform? Quick Reform then move? Treating it as a second, pseudo-Remaining Moves sub-phase that just has a limit imposed on maximum distance moved supports these things.

However, I see plenty of people reading it as granting a straight up 10" or 20" move, with the wording of "up to" simply meaning you aren't forced to move exactly 10" or 20" - the units Ma is not referenced for this move.

As I said, it really needs a FAQ, but I think the Flamespyre Phoenix combo is quite legitimate, given the wording.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:56 am 
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walk between worlds says you'll move "as if it were the remaining moves sub-phase", which makes it to me clear it isn't a second remaining moves sub-phase, just something that pretends to be.
now the wake of fire rule says it can only be used in the remaining moves sub-phase (note how I excluded the magic phase from being a second remaining moves sub-phase as per above) and therefor can't be used in the magic phase

also, the spell only says you can move, and therefor you can't do anything else. The wake of fire isn't a move, it's a special rule that just sometimes happens when you are moving, and therefor excluded by the spell as well (since it allows nothing else but to move)

and yes, I agree the walk between worlds should be FAQ'd anyway, because of the reform question.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:19 pm 
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The answer is kind of long, both, frostheart or flamesphire, or it might ultimately be neither.

Do you have a list you want to play? Some lists might need horde control, more than they need the passive hexes a frost heart provides. Are you just collecting models, with the intent of playing the game?

The frost heart can take units like mournfang (lore Ld, medium strength) out of the game. But at the same time if you have a cav heavy army and find you're having problems dealing with slave/clanrats/zombies and small support units weapon teams, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 pm 
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I am not saying that it actually is a second remaining move sub-phase, but rather, just as you say, it is something that pretends to be.

But if wake of fire specifically states "If a Flamespyre Phoenix moves over one or more unengaged units in the Remaining Moves sub-phase ..." (that is an exact quote), and Walk Between Worlds specifically states "... immediately move up to 10" as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase." (another exact quote), I see a direct, word for word link, that forms the basis of the interaction.

Wake of Fire does not state it can not be used in the Magic phase - it simply states 2 conditions that must be met. 1 - You move over one or more unengaged enemy units, and 2 - That the move takes place in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

Walk Between Worlds definitely needs more definition, but to me, "as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase" makes it pretty clear to me that I should treat it like it was the Remaining Moves sub-phase. So a move that takes places as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase to me sounds equivalent to moving in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

Wake of Fire triggers off of the move, so it doesn't matter whether the spell specifically allows it or not - the spell gives you a move, and the move is what triggers what Wake of Fire. To offer a different example, if I use Walk Between Worlds to land my Phoenix in Difficult Terrain, do I take a Dangerous Terrain test? Yes I do, as the Dangerous Terrain test is triggered by move, and that is what would happen in the Remaining Moves sub-phase, and that is how I'm to treat this move.


As to the Reform stuff, I bring it up because it is related. In the BRB, under Remaining Moves, in the "Moving Your Units" section, we have "During the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally, or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform manoeuvres as described on page 13"

Now, we could argue that we are only allowed the Move part of that, as per the spell, and not the manoeuvres part of it, but looking at page 13, we see that Wheeling is a defined as a manoeuvre, as is a Reform. So unless the spell is also intended to only let us move units straight forward without any turns, we have to infer that they meant the whole part of "Moving Your Units" section, to include manoeuvres, which means reforms are fair game.

Also note this reading includes the restrictions listed above, so you can't use Walk Between Worlds on any unit that is fleeing or has just rallied. Also, you have to account for the 1/2 movement rate on moving Sideways and Backwards.


Anyhow, this is having a lot less to do with Flamespyre vs Frostheart now, so I'll leave it. Suffice to say, that for me anyways, Flamespyre benefits from Walk Between Worlds in a way that Frostheart does not.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:12 pm 
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I understand why people say it is the frost phoenix, because it does help with what the army has less tools to deal with than the flame phoenix. However, I think it entirely depends on what your strategy is. The Frostheart is excellent as heavy support, as its ASL really helps out white lions and swordmasters, and the -1S helps cavalry retain their superior armour saves. It also is basically a small/medium dragon in stats, and with the imposed hex it can take on alot on its own. It is an excellent buy for 240 points. The Flamespyre I see as being very good for fast forays into enemy territory, sort of like heavy scouts, where it can quickly hunt war machines while toasting infantry or light support along the way. The other major advantage is that if it is in or near the enemy backfield, your opponent might be loathe to direct anything at it, for fear it could cause a major explosion when it dies and do significant damage to their blocks, only to possibly return. So the big frost guy is heavy support for your troops, the smaller fire beast is heavy harassment, ideal for killing war machines.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:15 pm 
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I would always take the frost one. it is more tough, the special rules synergise with its own stats and help with HE weakness.

Regarding the flame wake of fire: note that moving as in a specific phase is not the same as flying in a specific phase. Move is ground movement while flying is a specific rule allowing you to move with other restrictions in the movement phase, thus you cant use it with walk between worlds imho.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:13 pm 
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I quoted the Fly special rule, above, and how it interacts. Again, suffice to say until a FAQ comes out, Walk Between Worlds is kind of problematic.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:50 am 
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Just 4+ it in game to be fair until FAQ is out.
Frostheart is overall better but Flamespyre is better in certain situations. General vs Niche.
You also have to think about your local meta. Are there along of T3/T4 low armour save units? (skaven, elves, beastmen and etc...) then flamesypre could be better. Once thing I would like to point out is a Flamesypre phoenix can still be 1 shotted and in the age of cannons most cannon-able armies will have at least 2 cannons so I'm usre most people won't be in the "back line" of enemies.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:12 pm 
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GooberNumber9 wrote:
Imagine instead giving all friendly models in the same combat +1T and it seems a bit better. T4 Elves?
Interesting way of seeing it. The flaw I find with this is that if you think of it this way, you are not contemplating the potential negative armor modifiers. If the enemy had S4 and my elves were T4, then my armor save would take a -1. This leads me to believe that we should just continue thinking of it as it is written :wink: : -1S. This means and S4 enemy would be S3 hitting our T3 elves. No -1 modifier to armor saves.
GooberNumber9 wrote:
For me, ASL is just potential icing on the cake. If you're in an all-comers list, then the Frostheart makes a big difference against other High Elves and Dark Elves (Great Weapons would go simultaneous with a lot of Dark Elves without the Frostheart).
Maybe a very weak, mild icing. Remember we already get ASF. It doesn't matter much that we give most opponents ASL, as it doesn't change their initiative. With regards to our great weapon wielding troops, yes, it can help a tiny bit against enemies with high initiatives.
cptcosmic wrote:
Regarding the flame wake of fire: note that moving as in a specific phase is not the same as flying in a specific phase. Move is ground movement while flying is a specific rule allowing you to move with other restrictions in the movement phase, thus you cant use it with walk between worlds imho.
I'd have to disagree with you here. Fly is a specific rule yes, but it is a type of move you can do in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. This is evidenced by the Fly rule which specifically states that "...models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly." Therefore, any model that has the fly rule can choose to fly move instead of just move when it can normally move.

The spell specifically says "as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase." If it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase, I would fly move it 10" regular/20" boosted. The only restrictions are two-fold: (1) it must be a move that you can do in the Remaining Moves sub-phase and (2) it is limited to 10"/20" (my assumption via grammatical logic).

As far as RAI is concerned, I believe that it is a clear indication that the spell itself predominantly focused on phoenixes, to combo their Wake of Fire ability. It not only makes players want to use Lore of High Magic (which sells their battle magic cards), but also make people want to use phoenixes (which sells their phoenix kits). This would be the logical intent by GW to sell more models, and make more profit.

As far as fluff is concerned, I believe flying over and taking a lava crap on an enemy and ethereally moving through an enemy whilst lava-crapping on their shoes would pretty much have the same effect. Either way, FAQ you, GW.
pk-ng wrote:
[One] thing I would like to point out is a Flamesypre phoenix can still be 1 [shot] and in the age of cannons most cannon-able armies will have at least 2 cannons so I'm [sure] most people won't be in the "back line" of enemies.
A Frostheart phoenix is just as likely to be 1 shot by a cannon as a Flamespyre phoenix. The difference of T6 to T5 is negated by S10 cannon shot, which will wound either on a 2+. The Frostheart's 5+ armor is negated by the -7 to armor save applied by the S10 shot. They will have the same ward save. They both have 5 wounds, so if the multiple wounds D6 rolls a 5+, it will kill either phoenix.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:09 am 
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wisetiger7 wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
[One] thing I would like to point out is a Flamesypre phoenix can still be 1 [shot] and in the age of cannons most cannon-able armies will have at least 2 cannons so I'm [sure] most people won't be in the "back line" of enemies.
A Frostheart phoenix is just as likely to be 1 shot by a cannon as a Flamespyre phoenix. The difference of T6 to T5 is negated by S10 cannon shot, which will wound either on a 2+. The Frostheart's 5+ armor is negated by the -7 to armor save applied by the S10 shot. They will have the same ward save. They both have 5 wounds, so if the multiple wounds D6 rolls a 5+, it will kill either phoenix.


Yes true but the Flaemspyre will probably be more exposed than the Frostheart as people will be using Wake of Flame / Flame trail.

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