HE MSU in the Old World - Game 1 - 2000 vs Warriors of Chaos - 2024/03/04

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Well played sir =P

[Prince of Spires]

Interesting list. I'm curious to see how it will perform. I think it can do well. Like you, I see the value in movement, combo-charges end expendability. Both because it gives you a lot of tactical options, but also because the metagame is so very different from this list. I can imagine a lot of people wouldn't know what to do when they see your army across the table. Where do you start, what do you hit, where do you aim your artillery / big spell? (Yes, dwellers still kills half a unit of elves, but when half is 4, it's not that big a deal).

The only thing I worry about seeing your list is concentration of force. You don't realy have any force multipliers which pack a big punch in a small space. This can make flank charges less effective and combats less decisive. So going from your list, I would personally add in a chariot. 9SM + Pidgeon Plucker Pendant = Lion chariot. And with move 8 and swiftstride, he can keep up great with your multiple infantry units.

Bring on the batt-rep and show us how you did

Edit: forgot to mention, but have you thought about light as a lore for your AM? With its area effect spells, it is almost made for MSU armies. Plus it offers some great bonusses to HE units in general (in my opinion), which helps with all the different kinds of units you run (as opposed to a lore like shadow or life, which benefit one type of unit more so than the others).

Rod

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Rod!

Thanks for posting, I thought this topic is half dead With only one battle with MSU list it does not seem it sparked any interest.

Indeed, my opponent in last game when he fielded Slaanesh deamons was very reluctant with the army which relies on speed too. And when I asked him afterwards why was he so shy he said "I didn't know which part of your army to attack first" MSU army has its weaknesses and it takes patience to operate it properly but that was also the reason I took it. To learn to be patient

The list is definitely work-in-progress one. I did consider chariots in general and I am sure they can be used with a great sucsess in a MSU list. I am going to play a few games with the list as it is first, however, because it has been already a dramatic change for me and I need a little time to learn better how to deploy and how to move with so many units. It feels refreshing and good though. Another important factor is that I am trying to put together an army for a tournament so I am time limited in terms of preparing miniatures. Painting DP takes a lot of time and I still have some other stuff to fix/paint. But please, keep coming back with ideas and criticism as this is the time for such discussion.

I thought about Light and it is still tempting but again I want to give True Magic a go I was nicely surprised that with such low value to cast I can attempt to cast many spells without banner of sorcery and these spells are very useful too. Flames of the Phoenix helped me a lot to thin down this 36 strong unit of deamonettes so that when it came to combat I managed to finish them off. Having cast two Drain Magic I prevented my opponent from casting some spells and even with a single DM he told me he had to use one more dice per spell to make sure his odds are good enough. I am also looking forward to games where I could use vauls unmaking too

As to the battle reports there is already one in this topic (battle 3): Battle report

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers

[Prince of Spires]

Like I said, I like MSU armies. I think they can work very well especially because they don't play the current meta game at all. Personally I don't think HE are suited for the Big Unit, bash em together tactic that is some common these days. HE just don't have the staying power needed. And MSU units realy plays to the HE strengths and weaknesses.

With high movement, high S, I and ASF, the movement game and combo charges is something HE excell at. combine this with low effectiveness for spells / warmachines against such small units and you get a good army. The main weakness might be against someone with a few big units who castles in the corner. this could prevent you from getting the nescesary flanks etc.

I think high magic can work realy well with this kind of list. Personally, I run high magic with a lvl 2 seer mage in my dragon list. Flames helps a lot when dealing with cheap horde units, which can pose problems for these kind of lists. It realy helps making combats decisive. I also run all archer core, so curse is a great tool to have, creating a bit more shooting presure against redirectors / cheap units. The only spell from high that is probably not that usefull for this kind of list is Courage. With so many units that one breaktest is not that big a deal anymore.

I'll have a read through the report, and I hope you have a few more on the way. Interested to see how it plays out.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

I don't believe that people are not posting because they don't care. All the army blogs on this forum have a lot higher read-to-post-ratio than other threads, which means that people are more interested in reading about our experiences than posting - even if we ask them questions or want feedback. I assume this is because a lot of the readers are inexperienced and don't feel that they can contribute.

For me, personally, I believe this kind of a list is very interesting. Whether or not it has potential remains to be seen, and that's exactly the reason I haven't posted: I don't believe you can properly and thoroughly evalute it to death in theory. We need to see some games, some examples of how it plays, to have a proper discussion.

I see its biggest strengths being deployment and target saturation: between these you play around a lot of the current metagame. I view its biggest weakness as its poor synergy with magic: the most popular lores for us affect single units. A way to mitigate this is to go for offensive spells (e.g. Dwellers Below, Vaul's Unmaking, Flames of the Phoenix, Pit of Shades) or Area of Effect spells (Lore of Light).

The driving force behind army blogs is, in my opinion, the games it plays. Of course, there's a lot of list discussion, analysis etc which is also of interest, but the main part is addressing how the list works in practice. With your approach this is especially true as this is a way of playing High Elves that I believe 95% of those who read this have never done, myself included. As such, I feel I have nothing valuable to contribute with before I see some more games

[akielzather]

first off,realing enjoying your blog.

Secondly, have recently soften my list for fun, and trying high magic again on my lvl 4.

Have found it works well against armies that are many t3, but have found it struggles with t4 core, flames for example looses it effectivness against WOC adn dwarfs.

thoughts?, should i stick with it or go back to my life crutch(as i call it)

[Brewmaster_D]

Hey Swordmaster,

I love this new direction that your list has taken. It's so tough for your opponent to really plan a strategy versus this list since typically your opponent has invested heavily in one or two units, so the multiple small units makes it difficult to get their points back.

All those units also provides multiple attack vectors and all but guarantees that combat happens on your terms, and that when it does happen, you'll be able to get multiple combo charges.

A few questions for you:

- Have you found frontage to be at a premium? In my list, even with only 4 smaller units of elites, I find that frontage can be a bit of an issue, which is part of the reason I originally included the Lion Chariot in my list (its ability to concentrate its force into almost no frontage)

- How can you *not* take the lore of Light with this setup? Imagine getting a combo charge off with 3 units of elites, then getting an aura timewarp off? You're looking at upwards of 20 bonus, high quality elite elven attacks. The possibilities boggle the mind. I can appreciate the low casting costs of High magic, however the lore of light isn't too shabby either, with many of its spells going off on a 10 or under.

- Are you worried at all about panic? With such small units, I have nightmares thinking about one unit dropping to shooting, then everything around it fleeing off the board.

I'm excited to see some battle reports with this list! I definitely thing this is a neat idea that needs to be explored more.

D

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys! Good to see your comments again!

With high movement, high S, I and ASF, the movement game and combo charges is something HE excell at. combine this with low effectiveness for spells / warmachines against such small units and you get a good army. The main weakness might be against someone with a few big units who castles in the corner. this could prevent you from getting the nescesary flanks etc.

I hope that this approach will help me to fight better against different types of the enemies than I could hope for with my previous list. MSU army has something that I always tried to learn and use properly - a lot of potential in the movement phase. I also think it creates more interesting game for both sides. With step up attacks and steadfast it is probably more difficult to make it work than it was in 7th edition but it seems it is still possible and quite rewarding. I also think that with its flexibility in deployment there might be some interesting solutions to the problems like castle you have just described.

I think high magic can work realy well with this kind of list. Personally, I run high magic with a lvl 2 seer mage in my dragon list. Flames helps a lot when dealing with cheap horde units, which can pose problems for these kind of lists. It realy helps making combats decisive. I also run all archer core, so curse is a great tool to have, creating a bit more shooting presure against redirectors / cheap units. The only spell from high that is probably not that usefull for this kind of list is Courage. With so many units that one breaktest is not that big a deal anymore.

I tried High Magic because of curiosity. I knew it is a decent lore with cheap spells but after playing it I must say I am now having a great dilemma. I like Light and I used it more often but I am also tempted to use High Magic again. It was quite useful against deamons (against which Light is even more suitable, while Vauls Unmaking becomes useless) and it can be interesting against other armies too. Hard choice indeed and I am not yet able to say which way I would go The fact that High Magic seems to be less popular (at least that is my impression) is also something I consider.

I'll have a read through the report, and I hope you have a few more on the way. Interested to see how it plays out.

Rod

There will be more for sure. Unfortunately last week my opponent was not available but hopefully we will have another game this weekend.

I don't believe that people are not posting because they don't care. All the army blogs on this forum have a lot higher read-to-post-ratio than other threads, which means that people are more interested in reading about our experiences than posting - even if we ask them questions or want feedback. I assume this is because a lot of the readers are inexperienced and don't feel that they can contribute.

I am glad to see that people read this topic too. I believe that might have more to do with time available. Often one has to choose between his/her own topic or the one started by someone else. It is really ok for me when a person keeps his/her own blog/thread running instead of dropping a line or two here. And if some new players can have a look here and get some inspiration then even better.

For me, personally, I believe this kind of a list is very interesting. Whether or not it has potential remains to be seen, and that's exactly the reason I haven't posted: I don't believe you can properly and thoroughly evalute it to death in theory. We need to see some games, some examples of how it plays, to have a proper discussion.

Well, I had an impression that majority of discussions here (or on any other forum) is just exchanging opinions and theory-hammer anyway

I see its biggest strengths being deployment and target saturation: between these you play around a lot of the current metagame. I view its biggest weakness as its poor synergy with magic: the most popular lores for us affect single units. A way to mitigate this is to go for offensive spells (e.g. Dwellers Below, Vaul's Unmaking, Flames of the Phoenix, Pit of Shades) or Area of Effect spells (Lore of Light).

I agree on deployment part. It is probably even more crucial than it seems. In my opinion the strenght of MSU does not lie in the fact that it might recover from the loss of a few units but from the fact that these regiements are in the right position to set and spring the traps on bigger enemy units.

As to magic I hope I will be able to show it but my impression is that while many armies rely on magic and cannot perform well without it, MSU army is a threat on its own but magic, although limited, adds another dimension to it. Hence I would not look at it as a weakness but as a different role to play. What exactly that role suppose to be depends on the player. High Magic and Light Lore seem to be good choices for MSU army but I saw reports of Empire army from which I got the inspiration performing in an interesting way with Metal or Fire lores too. So change your attitude from mitigating something you perceive as weakness to more positive one where you already have nice tools for a job but you can make them even nicer and it just depends on you how you want it to be.

The driving force behind army blogs is, in my opinion, the games it plays. Of course, there's a lot of list discussion, analysis etc which is also of interest, but the main part is addressing how the list works in practice. With your approach this is especially true as this is a way of playing High Elves that I believe 95% of those who read this have never done, myself included. As such, I feel I have nothing valuable to contribute with before I see some more games

My idea was to split three aspects and discuss them in a more individual way rather than have it all together in one blog as many of you prefer. Your way is good and I enjoy reading it all but I wanted to try different approach. Here we can theory-hammer and if needed, recall some examples from played battles to discuss usefulness of particular units in the army list. While in the battle reports the army list would be a secondary topic and ideally we could have a discussion about possible outcomes of particular battles. It seems, however, that quite often people wanted to discuss army list in battle report section I appreciate these comments and opinions as well. Maybe it was a mistake to organize various subjects in the way I did it but now it would just add a lot of confusion if I were to make it all one big topic. I provided a list of links to battle reports in my first post for reference (and I hope to expend painting section for that matter) and I hope it helps to get to the particular one quicker than if they were in a single topic.

In any case I will keep posting about the battles with this new army list as often as possible and I hope that sooner rather than later we will have more examples how this army could play as indeed it is not something many players (me including) have a lot of experience with.

first off,realing enjoying your blog.

Secondly, have recently soften my list for fun, and trying high magic again on my lvl 4.

Have found it works well against armies that are many t3, but have found it struggles with t4 core, flames for example looses it effectivness against WOC adn dwarfs.

thoughts?, should i stick with it or go back to my life crutch(as i call it)

Thanks! I am glad you like it!

Although I haven't decided yet myself which lore to go for I would say try it out a few more times and see if that is the one that suits you. Sure, S3 flames against T4 and well armoured foe is not going to do much but then maybe it will have a chance to burn a little longer? And High Magic is not only about Flames of Phoenix too!

Hey Swordmaster,

I love this new direction that your list has taken. It's so tough for your opponent to really plan a strategy versus this list since typically your opponent has invested heavily in one or two units, so the multiple small units makes it difficult to get their points back.

Exactly what my opponent has said after our last battle

All those units also provides multiple attack vectors and all but guarantees that combat happens on your terms, and that when it does happen, you'll be able to get multiple combo charges.

That's the idea and I am very keen to learn how to do it right!

A few questions for you:

- Have you found frontage to be at a premium? In my list, even with only 4 smaller units of elites, I find that frontage can be a bit of an issue, which is part of the reason I originally included the Lion Chariot in my list (its ability to concentrate its force into almost no frontage)

I don't know yet. I see the place for chariots in MSU style army too, as they pivot on the spot so they change directions even with less effort, have greater range for charge and indeed seem to have more attack output on smaller frontage (although I am tempted to line up a few models and see what is really a difference ). I have a feeling it comes down to personal preferences, however, rather than some serious advantages one unit can have over another. Small elite unit has more wounds than a chariot but is slower. It also depends if you are taking chariot over WL or SM as both units have their special roles to play while chariot is simply a different type of unit used for different purpose. Let me play a few more games and I will see if it is going to become a problem.

- How can you *not* take the lore of Light with this setup? Imagine getting a combo charge off with 3 units of elites, then getting an aura timewarp off? You're looking at upwards of 20 bonus, high quality elite elven attacks. The possibilities boggle the mind. I can appreciate the low casting costs of High magic, however the lore of light isn't too shabby either, with many of its spells going off on a 10 or under.

I haven't given up Light lore at all. I was actually tempted to try it out straight away. I would love to be able to pick some spells from both lores Vauls Unmaking could be a solution to many problems we have at the moment and I have seen already how helpful Drain Magic can be. Then I played with Light and I do like Pha's Protection and Timewarp a lot, not to mention that if I were to cast Light of Battle last game the effects of Phatasmagoria would be nullified. Believe me, the decision is very hard to make and I picked High Magic just to see how it might work.

- Are you worried at all about panic? With such small units, I have nightmares thinking about one unit dropping to shooting, then everything around it fleeing off the board.

I am. Another reason to look at Lore of Light The good thing is that with so many units if some panic there are usually other regiments, especially early in the game, that can keep going. Also, majority of them are still close to BSB for re-rolls. However, it is and will probably be some kind of thing I need to accept can happen from time to time and I will try to take that int account while planning my moves.

I'm excited to see some battle reports with this list! I definitely thing this is a neat idea that needs to be explored more.

D

As I said there will be more games with this type of a list for sure as I am very intererested in learning how to play with it properly. I find it very interesting to be able to do so much in movement phase as I missed that a lot. I know that this army is not easy to play with but you can only get better when you try new things and set some challenges

Thanks again for your comments and before I go there are two questions for yo

1. We have already started a discussion here but which lore would you like to try for this army and why? Any lore for that matter, not just High Magic or Light Lore.

2. Despite the army being already fast I was wondering about exchanging one Swordmasters unit for another Ellyrian Reaver regiment. It would give me an opportunity to team up both of them and perform feigned flight together so that whenever the enemy redirects they have to do it against light cavalry and then can be truly slowed down. With 2 WL, 2 SM and 2DP I have some nice close combat elites. Would that one more Swordmaster unit make such a big difference? Let me know what do you think!

Cheers!

[Curu Olannon]

Well, I had an impression that majority of discussions here (or on any other forum) is just exchanging opinions and theory-hammer anyway

In general, this is true for forums. However, the army blogs on this site generates a lot more page views than the purely theoretical posts. The top handful of army blogs together have over 50,000 page views. To me, this suggests that there's more value to reading about a list, its games and related tactical/theoretical concerns as a whole rather than approaching it from a purely theoretical point of view.

Most theoretical warhammer threads go like this:
- Why is X good?
- Arguments for
- Arguments against
- End of useful arguments
- Repeat what former users have said
- End of thread

In an army blog, a related tactical concern to the list is evaluated, posts are made, games are played, the position is challenged again. A good example here is Seredain's use of Bolt Throwers. If his was a purely theoretical thread, the resulting discussion about bolt throwers would hardly be as extensive as it has become now.

I think it's perfectly fine for you to separate the parts of your army blog: I can see the value in getting purely theoretical input in one place, while a game is evaluated someplace else. Personally, I struggle to differentiate between the two, as they're so closely related. While it's true that poor list design should be ignored when somebody is asking for pure in-game advice, it can be hard to actually do it sometimes.

As far as theory goes however I believe that in order to maximize magic potential with this list, you should either go offensive or aoe-based. I do believe that there is a very strong argument for Light here, as Brewmaster pointed out.

When do you plan on playing your next game(s)?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

There is a chance we will play over the weekend. I will let you know if there is a new report coming then.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Another battle with the list is up: 2400 vs. Deamons of Chaos

It was a very interesting experience and I start liking the army even more now I also find High Magic still performing great and I will keep it for a while as I want to see how it works with Vauls Unmaking when I can actually switch off some items.

The main conclusion from the last game, however, is that I need more banners. It occured to me that if I were to lose my Archmage to miscast (and I had a chance for that) it would be game over. So, where and how many banners would you include? And what to give up to get points for it?

Cheers!

[Siegfried VII]

For me you could remove one of the units (Sword Masters or Dragon Princes) to have some points to spare on trinkets, but Standards do not go well with such small units imo...

Well I only play in the ETC Format and I don't have to face these scenarios, so take what I say with a grain of salt.


Regarding you list in general I believe that a hard and very useful (in terms of evaluating the worth of the msu style) test would be facing a shooty army (Empire, Lizardmen, Dark Elves etc...).

In my experience msu lists struggled against shooty lists because it could net easy points and cause many panic tests...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@Siegfried

Thanks for input, mate! I understand the danger of having a banner with a small unit. So I do not plan to give it to any single one in the army (not to mention that I would have to find points for it). However, I think I can find points for a banner for one unit of White Lions and also transfer Banner of Eternal Flame from Spears to that regiment. Hence I would come back to a proper Hunters unit with a mission to take down hydras or abominations. With 3 standards and BSB I would have 6 fortitude points, so even with unlucky miscast I would still be in the game in that Death and Glory scenario. At the same time I am not increasing the number of banners across the army and I would not give extra free points to my enemy. Also, if it happens that some unit needs to be sacrificed I would maintain flexibility, while with a banner here and there I might be more reluctant to do so (not necessary a bad thing but ... )

I definitely agree I would face a proper challenge against some heavy shooters. I will see if I can arrange some battle against such an army. It is not impossible, however, to win against Empire or other gunline. I need to think how to achieve it with slightly smarter way than just rushing along the board, especially that I have less chances to win the first turn (always a help).

Another matter is magic lore, the topic I considered lately, especially when Brewmaster and Siegfried tried hard to convince me Light Magic is the way to go. Having used Light Lore for a while myself I must say it was not an easy decision to make. So let's talk a little bit about:

Light Lore or True Magic

The main advantages of Light Lore, no matter what army one has, in my opinion are:
- area spells
- flexibility
- subtle effects which can be added for even greater usefulness

On the other hand High Magic, at least at the moment, is good because:
- it is very cheap to cast
- quite flexible too
- has a unique way of affecting enemy's magic (both spells and magic items)

Both magic schools are good. So i started to wonder how each one of them would affect my current army and what it would add to the whole picture.

Light magic is good because it affect many units at the same time and it seems the more unit you have the more benefits you can get. However, I have noticed a particular side effect of using that lore which might be a little problematic for MSU army. I grouped my regiments together to be close enough for spells to affect them. While it was of no importance in a small army, it is sometimes not that desirable to do so with MSu army. I have observed that if I spread my army a little more it is useful for outmaneuvering the enemy as I am already in a good position to flank them. This might not be a problem at all but it is still what happens. And I would not like to drift towards particular formation just for the sake of using particular spell on more units.

Area spells are also very tempting to cast and that means you cast less per turn. With High Magic I can easily cast 3 spells with 6 dice in total and I need to take that into account as in my current army I have only 2 wizards (so channeling is not that efficient as with 3 spell casters) and no Banner of Sorcery to further increase amount of available power dice. Again, this is not a disadvantage but something you need to plan accordingly.

I also argued that Light Magic needs at least 2 wizards to increase banishment strength to make it really dangerous. 2D4 is still very useful but there are targets which are not afraid of it while 2D5 suddenly makes all the difference. I used Light magic in such a way that I forced my opponent to dispel banishment and gave me an opportunity for a free cast of Pha's Protection or another spell. If the banishment went through I considered that a bonus. But then it might reduce BSB spell casting abilities to just channeling and assisting.

Light Magic offers protection and adds speed to the units. How does it help MSU in particular? Well, it can protect some but not all units. It can add speed to some but not to all either. So it seems to me that it is actually less helpful to MSU army than to a typical force, where all important unit can benefit from area spells. MSU army, on the other hand, can spread out thus minimizing the chances to be hit by template weapons, has more targets and it is quite fast already.

High Magic is not that spectacular but it is definitely much cheaper to cast spells from it. And this is not for casting spells for the sake of it. It has options that very useful Light does not have. Drain magic, especially when cast twice makes casting some spells for the enemy very difficult. My opponent who played deamons told me that even with +3 increase he had to use one more dice than he would otherwise to cast his spells. And with level 2 herald a few times he failed to meet casting value too! Having ward save is always good and I have 2 such options. Curse of Arrow Attraction is like ASF for shooters and even a small contingent of archers suddenly starts to inflict damage on a quite regular basis. Flames of the Phoenix gives that opportunity to deal with cheap hordes (could be a problem for MSU) and Vaul's Unmaking can be really a game winner. With all these elite units already having a lot of attacks or his strength hits I can deal enough damage while rendering useless various kind of ward/regeneration saves for instance. And I have up to 6 chances to try to do so during the game.

So my conclusion is that although Light Magic is very good lore and I like it a lot, it seems to me it enhances capabilities of MSU army already there. While at the same time High Magic seems to add another dimension in a subtle way. I will try High Magic then and see how it goes against other armies as against Deamons in particular Light lore seemed to be more useful.

I hope that Brewmaster and Siegfried will forgive me for abandoning the idea of Coven of the Light. I am sure you both will use such armies to a great effect. By taking High Magic, however, I believe I can add a little bit of experience and real game results to our mutual knowledge. Our armies would be too similar if I were to go for Light as well and I think we need to keep more versatility among our armies.

It does not say I might not come back to Light at some stage And I hope you can find my reasoning, well, reasonable enough

Cheers!

[Brewmaster_D]

Hey Swordmaster!

Some great points in that last post, and it definitely explains your rationale very concisely. I'd like to offer up some counterpoints for conversations sake.

However, I have noticed a particular side effect of using that lore which might be a little problematic for MSU army. I grouped my regiments together to be close enough for spells to affect them.

This comes down more to playstyle than due to the lore. Each of those spells is effective on single units as well, so it really comes down to flexibility. Lore of Light and High Magic can both be played in a loose formation effectively, however where Light pulls ahead in my opinion is that you also have the *option* of keeping things close and benefitting from those buffs. It's all situational, and at the end of the day you as the player dictate how you're going to use your troops.

Area spells are also very tempting to cast and that means you cast less per turn.

Again, this comes down to what is going to produce the most effective magic phase for you. It's just as possible with lore of light casting values to focus on multiple single target spells than it is going all in to the upgraded versions.

I also argued that Light Magic needs at least 2 wizards to increase banishment strength to make it really dangerous.

This is more of a want than a need. Remember, I had a good measure of success initially with just a level 2 using the lore. The Coven of Light is an extreme version of how to utilize the lore, and yes it's appealing, but I definitely don't think that it would suit a list like yours. I'd sooner see a single Archmage with an invulnerable build.

Light Magic offers protection and adds speed to the units. How does it help MSU in particular? Well, it can protect some but not all units. It can add speed to some but not to all either. So it seems to me that it is actually less helpful to MSU army than to a typical force, where all important unit can benefit from area spells. MSU army, on the other hand, can spread out thus minimizing the chances to be hit by template weapons, has more targets and it is quite fast already.

Let's not forget improving the combat abilities of your units (Speed of light, Timewarp), potentially shutting down a caster(s) (Net of Amyntok) and giving you concentrated, customizable flaming attacks (Shem's). Remember that while your units fan out during the early stages of the game, the end goal is to get combo charges on your opponent's units. At this point they converge together, and this is where I feel the lore of light will really pull ahead. While Shield of Saphery is only marginally useful in an army like yours (you can only protect one of your many units), when combat eventually occurs, the only way for you to effect all of a combat is to either use lore of light area buffs, or put hexes on the enemy unit you're fighting. Everything else just falls short.

Also, Timewarped Dragon Princes are a sight to behold, and will make any gunline list require a change of pants.

High Magic is not that spectacular but it is definitely much cheaper to cast spells from it. And this is not for casting spells for the sake of it. It has options that very useful Light does not have. Drain magic, especially when cast twice makes casting some spells for the enemy very difficult. My opponent who played deamons told me that even with +3 increase he had to use one more dice than he would otherwise to cast his spells. And with level 2 herald a few times he failed to meet casting value too! Having ward save is always good and I have 2 such options. Curse of Arrow Attraction is like ASF for shooters and even a small contingent of archers suddenly starts to inflict damage on a quite regular basis. Flames of the Phoenix gives that opportunity to deal with cheap hordes (could be a problem for MSU) and Vaul's Unmaking can be really a game winner. With all these elite units already having a lot of attacks or his strength hits I can deal enough damage while rendering useless various kind of ward/regeneration saves for instance. And I have up to 6 chances to try to do so during the game.

Some very good points in here. There's a lot of things that High Magic bring to the table. Flames and Drain Magic are great for bolstering your magic defense, and Vaul's is incredible at disrupting some of the worst combos in Warhammer.

Having said that, a few things:
- As I mentioned before, Shield goes from being a bargain protection spell to a very situational one due to the number of small units
- Curse of Arrow Attraction nets you an additional 5 S3 hits from your archers at long range and an additional 4 S3 hits at close range. I don't feel like you have enough shooting to fully benefit from this spell
- Courage of Anaerion is also marginally useful at best due to the small numbers in your units. Stubborn doesn't matter if they're all dead.
- The winners here being Drain Magic, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix, and Vaul's unmaking. However, at this point we're only looking at half the lore. This is going to make dispel prioritization very easy for your opponent. If you have Vaul's, Flames, Shield, Curse and Drain Magic, a smart opponent will have already in his mind said "I'm looking for Flames and Vaul's. Drain will come at the end, so I'll see how the phase plays out". If you cast either Shield or Curse, he gets a leg up.
- Vaul's is a great spell, but it suffers from diminishing returns more than almost any other spell. First time you cast it, you get rid of a nasty item. Then the next time, you get to choose from worse and worse items. Realistically speaking, this is a spell that matters once (maybe twice) a game. This is part of the reason I've recently given the Ring of Corin a nod - you get access to the spell, without committing to a lore of magic.

I hope that Brewmaster and Siegfried will forgive me for abandoning the idea of Coven of the Light. I am sure you both will use such armies to a great effect. By taking High Magic, however, I believe I can add a little bit of experience and real game results to our mutual knowledge. Our armies would be too similar if I were to go for Light as well and I think we need to keep more versatility among our armies.

Haha! At the end of the day, this is your list, and you're free to play it in whatever manner you want. I'm just offering suggestions to somebody who will actually listen to my ramblings - my friends stopped a long time ago lol.

Once again, really looking forward to reading another great battle report!

D

[Curu Olannon]

I'd just like to pitch in and say that while Brewmaster might seem like a persistent s.o.b. sometimes who just wants to argue, the fact is that his opinions are based on analysis and reasoning which simply contradicts that of another player. What I'm trying to say is that it's worth trying to figure out why he's saying what he's saying and how that might imply that "I'm wrong and Brewmaster's right". For me, the recent discussion in my army blog with regards to core selection was an interesting one - without Brewmaster's persistence with regards to Archers I believe it would've taken me way longer than a couple of games to realize it was the superior choice for me.

[Brewmaster_D]

lol nice one Curu.

Yeah guys, please don't ever mistake my persistence as trying to undermine your lists - I only get like this if I'm really, really interested in it.

D

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Brewmaster!

Before I start addressing your comments I would like to say I do not treat them as any form of forcing me to play your way. By the same token, I am not defending my choice but I do my best to explain why I did that and what I try to obtain by such decision. I think it is to a great benefit for me (and hopefully for the discussion too) to try and make my arguments pro and con reasonable. But in the end it is not to say I am right and you are wrong at any moment.

Hey Swordmaster!

Some great points in that last post, and it definitely explains your rationale very concisely. I'd like to offer up some counterpoints for conversations sake.

Excellent!

This comes down more to playstyle than due to the lore. Each of those spells is effective on single units as well, so it really comes down to flexibility. Lore of Light and High Magic can both be played in a loose formation effectively, however where Light pulls ahead in my opinion is that you also have the *option* of keeping things close and benefitting from those buffs. It's all situational, and at the end of the day you as the player dictate how you're going to use your troops.

I agree and maybe I just didn't underline it strongly enough but it is more of a observation about how I tend to behave rather than a general trend. However, it is definitely tempting to do so and since this is a strength of the lore to affect many units at a time one might be unconsciously drifting towards that direction.

Again, this comes down to what is going to produce the most effective magic phase for you. It's just as possible with lore of light casting values to focus on multiple single target spells than it is going all in to the upgraded versions.

I agree again! And again I am just saying it is quite tempting to go for bigger version as with bigger risk there is a bigger benefit. I did use it to a great effect as a single target spell. This is, after all, also a strength of the Light Lore.

This is more of a want than a need. Remember, I had a good measure of success initially with just a level 2 using the lore. The Coven of Light is an extreme version of how to utilize the lore, and yes it's appealing, but I definitely don't think that it would suit a list like yours. I'd sooner see a single Archmage with an invulnerable build.

Possibly a want than a need. I just speak from experience when sometimes, against tougher and/or well armoured foe 2D4 was let in and not much damage was done but in a similar situation 2D5 made decision making as to what to dispel and what to let go more difficult. Besides, it seems natural to have a situation where you can benefit from an additional rule that particular spell and magic lore gives you. Of course, if you happen to make a decision and choose between single Archmage with protection and 2 naked wizards then it is not that easy to make either. You have your priorities (I would probably go for that too) but another player might risk another build.

Let's not forget improving the combat abilities of your units (Speed of light, Timewarp), potentially shutting down a caster(s) (Net of Amyntok) and giving you concentrated, customizable flaming attacks (Shem's). Remember that while your units fan out during the early stages of the game, the end goal is to get combo charges on your opponent's units. At this point they converge together, and this is where I feel the lore of light will really pull ahead. While Shield of Saphery is only marginally useful in an army like yours (you can only protect one of your many units), when combat eventually occurs, the only way for you to effect all of a combat is to either use lore of light area buffs, or put hexes on the enemy unit you're fighting. Everything else just falls short.

I am not denying that at all and the combination of Speed of Light and Pha's Protection making WS4 troops hitting our warriors at 6+ in close combat is one of my favorite. That is also a strong argument that the regiments move dispersed but fight together and this is where Light lore can shine (pun intended ). High Magic will never be as spectacular and as direct (although Light lore is not that direct either). Just don't forget I have 2 Shields and 2 Drain Magics in my current set-up.

Also, Timewarped Dragon Princes are a sight to behold, and will make any gunline list require a change of pants.

Indeed! I had that wonderful charge against Trolls with 6 of Princes and flaming banner when I cast Timewarp on them too. If not for 2 unlucky dangerous tests, which saw 2 proud knights dead I would break through the monsters in a single combat. But it was still a sight to behold as you say

Some very good points in here. There's a lot of things that High Magic bring to the table. Flames and Drain Magic are great for bolstering your magic defense, and Vaul's is incredible at disrupting some of the worst combos in Warhammer.

And since I have never tried that in 8th edition and could not yet try it out against Deamons (gifts cannot be switched offf ) I simply want to give it a little more try.

- As I mentioned before, Shield goes from being a bargain protection spell to a very situational one due to the number of small units

Don't forget I have 2 Shields and can cast it for a unit that really needs that second time if the first attempt is dispelled. Good example is from last battle where thanks to that spell White Lions held for 3 turns keeping Plague Bearers occupied and making that unit unable to join another fight.

- Curse of Arrow Attraction nets you an additional 5 S3 hits from your archers at long range and an additional 4 S3 hits at close range. I don't feel like you have enough shooting to fully benefit from this spell

It is true that with more Archers and other types of missile units this spell is better. But it is not that it is always "only" 4-5 additional shots I get, even if the probability is higher. The main thing is you get more hits and in one game (or shooting phase) it might not matter it did help me to finish off that last flamer (which could be annoying for the reminder of the game) and helped to wound Keeper badly thus making it possible to kill it eventually. Something I didn't count on at the beginning of the game. It is not going to be a spectacular spell winning a game in a single turn but my opponent that magic phase had to make a decision which spell to dispel as he knew it gives me more chances to wound his greater deamon. And that meant WL got the shield, which helped them to fight longer. He was unlucky not to dispel the curse but that happens too. As you see in this particular example it was all about little things adding together for a much greater effect. It is a useful spell even with a small number of Archers.

- Courage of Anaerion is also marginally useful at best due to the small numbers in your units. Stubborn doesn't matter if they're all dead.

Not as good as Light of Battle but it is also an area spell. It might not be as useful as it used to be before time of steadfastness but it can help. Imagine spearelves attacked by a big unit of cheap troops. They don't die but do not have enough ranks to stay steadfast. Imagine Swordmasters in very narrow frontage, denying majority of attacks and if only one survives he can hold. Stubborn is not only for horde units. It can help where delaying tactics is required. And can also help when you have to hold against some units attacking from the flank where you can grind them down later on provided you survive that initial round of combat. Again, less spectacular and less useful spell than some but I would not neglect it and would not call it useless.

- The winners here being Drain Magic, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix, and Vaul's unmaking. However, at this point we're only looking at half the lore. This is going to make dispel prioritization very easy for your opponent. If you have Vaul's, Flames, Shield, Curse and Drain Magic, a smart opponent will have already in his mind said "I'm looking for Flames and Vaul's. Drain will come at the end, so I'll see how the phase plays out". If you cast either Shield or Curse, he gets a leg up.

Yes and ... no First, I will one more time remind you that I have 2 Shields and 2 Drain Magics. My opponent knows I will cast Drain magic last. But I can cast two of them as well which will make his own phase quite difficult. Do you think he will let it go that easily? He can let go two shields even (and I can use 2 dice to do so if I am not afraid to risk losing concentration). But if in the end he blocks everything but I got my Shield(s) and Drain(s) I call it a good phase. He cannot block all these cheap spells and I can cast quite a few even when the winds of magic are weak. I will see how it is going to work in other games but initial impression is that it is not that easy to make priorities as what to dispel in the case of High magic.

- Vaul's is a great spell, but it suffers from diminishing returns more than almost any other spell. First time you cast it, you get rid of a nasty item. Then the next time, you get to choose from worse and worse items. Realistically speaking, this is a spell that matters once (maybe twice) a game. This is part of the reason I've recently given the Ring of Corin a nod - you get access to the spell, without committing to a lore of magic.

It might matter once but it has more chances to matter and if it is dispelled at the beginning the threat is still there. Ring of Corin is good item but I cannot afford it as Annulian Crystal is much more important. If you are taking more wizards and another lore, then yes, that is indeed a good option. In any case the main thing is that if I happen to have that spell I will keep the danger of it being used for the entire game and even if another item I will be lucky to destroy is not that important it is still a loss for the enemy. And nobody likes losing their shiny toys

Haha! At the end of the day, this is your list, and you're free to play it in whatever manner you want. I'm just offering suggestions to somebody who will actually listen to my ramblings - my friends stopped a long time ago lol.

Only because they run out of counter arguments

Once again, really looking forward to reading another great battle report!

Hopefully I will have another one soon, this time against Beastmen.

What I'm trying to say is that it's worth trying to figure out why he's saying what he's saying and how that might imply that "I'm wrong and Brewmaster's right".

What if we are both right? Or even more, it is not about showing who is right or wrong at all?

Yeah guys, please don't ever mistake my persistence as trying to undermine your lists - I only get like this if I'm really, really interested in it.

This is exactly how I see it and I really appreciate your comments so keep them coming

Cheers!

[Siegfried VII]

I hope that Brewmaster and Siegfried will forgive me for abandoning the idea of Coven of the Light. I am sure you both will use such armies to a great effect. By taking High Magic, however, I believe I can add a little bit of experience and real game results to our mutual knowledge. Our armies would be too similar if I were to go for Light as well and I think we need to keep more versatility among our armies.

It does not say I might not come back to Light at some stage And I hope you can find my reasoning, well, reasonable enough

No worries mate, you were reasonable enough.

I think both you and Brewmaster made some very good points.

I would like to add a few cents in favour of Lore Light myself that I feel are rather important. I always think of magic as a way to deal with things my army normaly cannot handle as it is. On that note there are two departments that I believe Lore of Light exceeds greatly than High Magic:

1. Protection from shooting: You were right when you said that Pha's Protection can only protect some of your units. Think this though. If you face an army that has such powerful shooting that you need the spell fot protection, it probably means that they lack in close combat so you can afford to have a more compact formation of you army so that they get protection and they get to reach the enemy line in one piece. So in these situations you won't probably be needing a loose formation that much.

Also imagine this. You cast the boosted Pha's Protection and protect 2/3 of your army (here you will choose the units you really want to be protected). There's a very high propability your opponent will elect to shoot at the unprotected units since he won't risk losing warmachine or bow shots. That means effectively that he will ignore the units that you actually care to protect and that is a win in my opinion.

2. Monster Killing: What I always thought as the greatest weakness of High Magic is it innability to deal with big nasties. The only way to work around this (other than having an additional Lore) is to have RBTs, where the Curse of Arrow Attraction can make them deadly (well not that deadly but you get my point) against monsters.

You list does not have this solution. Also you no longer have your proud Prince to ride on his steed and slay the beasts. On top of that msu units are the definition of monsterfood. They can score about 2 wounds and then die horribly.

(On that note I would advise you pick a Dragon Princes unit to carry the Flaming Banner rather than White Lions, because a Hydra can breath them making their unit number so low that she won't have to worry.)

So Lore of Light (with a boosted banishment) offers a solution to this. You don't have to kill the beast outright, but scoring half the wounds needed to kill it will make it possible to your small units to deal with it and finish it off.


That said I see your reasoning and will add that our lists work in a different way, so there's a different approach and train of thought behind them. I just wanted to give you some food for thought, so even if you keep High Magic, you can have ready solutions to certain threats.


Cheers, Sieg.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Damn you, Siegfried! You made very good points again that kept me going back to thinking about magic lore over and over again

1. Protection from shooting: You were right when you said that Pha's Protection can only protect some of your units. Think this though. If you face an army that has such powerful shooting that you need the spell fot protection, it probably means that they lack in close combat so you can afford to have a more compact formation of you army so that they get protection and they get to reach the enemy line in one piece. So in these situations you won't probably be needing a loose formation that much.

You can also add that even if a single unit is protected then the spell does it work And I would agree! Pha's is a great spell, one that got me into that magic lore in the first place. High magic with double shield can offer only fraction of it and from completely different angle. I am trying to think ahead now as I haven't faced shooty army with High Magic just yet where Light Lore has such a great advantage. Provided you get that spell of course which is a little disadvantage of the build I have at the moment. Unless I take Light BSB too, when it would be a little better.

Also imagine this. You cast the boosted Pha's Protection and protect 2/3 of your army (here you will choose the units you really want to be protected). There's a very high propability your opponent will elect to shoot at the unprotected units since he won't risk losing warmachine or bow shots. That means effectively that he will ignore the units that you actually care to protect and that is a win in my opinion.

That is indeed the case I observed that very often the opponent elected to shoot at less threatening targets or less important ones just to make sure he can do it. And again, that is something I agree with!

2. Monster Killing: What I always thought as the greatest weakness of High Magic is it innability to deal with big nasties. The only way to work around this (other than having an additional Lore) is to have RBTs, where the Curse of Arrow Attraction can make them deadly (well not that deadly but you get my point) against monsters.

You list does not have this solution. Also you no longer have your proud Prince to ride on his steed and slay the beasts. On top of that msu units are the definition of monsterfood. They can score about 2 wounds and then die horribly.

You might be right. I haven't faced big monsters with my MSU army just yet. I am aware my small units (spearelves included) can die in one turn if charged by a big beast and might not survive that much longer if they attack first either. I guess I cannot attack alone then

(On that note I would advise you pick a Dragon Princes unit to carry the Flaming Banner rather than White Lions, because a Hydra can breath them making their unit number so low that she won't have to worry.)

That is true. I need 8 more points for that upgrade. Hm, can be done without much problem. I had successes with that banner on both units.

So Lore of Light (with a boosted banishment) offers a solution to this. You don't have to kill the beast outright, but scoring half the wounds needed to kill it will make it possible to your small units to deal with it and finish it off.

That means I need BSB with Light lore too. And it might mean I will end up with him just waving his flag (nothing wrong with it and I know he enjoys that a lot ) while with Shield and Drain I can always have a back up for these two spells. Or even cast each twice what presents quite an interesting option.

That said I see your reasoning and will add that our lists work in a different way, so there's a different approach and train of thought behind them. I just wanted to give you some food for thought, so even if you keep High Magic, you can have ready solutions to certain threats.

Cheers, Sieg.

Thanks again! I appreciate it even as it makes my decision making even harder, haha! The "problem" is that both magic lores add something unique to any army you use. And no matter what style you prefer you can find spells very useful indeed.

Well, I am going to prepare the diagrams from the last battle against Beastmen now. In the meantime it would be great to hear your opinion on:

1. Archmage with Light + BSB with High Magic - another option which we haven't really discussed yet

2. Banner of Eternal Flame - on DP or WL?

Cheers!

[Siegfried VII]

In the meantime it would be great to hear your opinion on:

1. Archmage with Light + BSB with High Magic - another option which we haven't really discussed yet

2. Banner of Eternal Flame - on DP or WL?

1. I would rather use Lore of Light on the bsb, not only to boost Banishment, but to help my Archmage get the spells he wants.
That said I can see the benefits of such a combination. I assume your aim is Shield of Saphery and drain magic non?

And you can always roll a flames of the Phoenix or a Vaul's Unmaking. My only fear is that Banishment will be really sub par with only strength 4, thus denying you one of the Lore benefits that we talked about above. I believe with a bit of testing we'll have a better view.

2. For me Dragon Princes all the way. Because:

a. 2+ ward save from Breath weapons and flamimg attacks is important.

b. They have speed, so they can catch easier the target of their choice.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Siegfried!

As to magical set-up I was wondering about it just for the sake of completeness. I still need more games with High Magic in order to have enough (for my liking) experience to say what works for me in particular. Which brings me to another point to the discussion about Light or High. It seems that you and Brewmaster somehow assume you will get Pha's Protection on the Archmage. Hence forcing BSB to take Light too in order to have better chances at getting it. What are you going to do if you don't get it, as it is still something that can happen? On the other hand I can always have Drain Magic and Shield and even have two of each. For me usefulness of the lore also comes from what kind of spell I can get as default. In this way I can add magic to the equation. While in your approach, when you assume you are going to have Pha's Protection you might find yourself in an uncomfortable position of having a plan build around a spell you don't have.

As to the flaming banner I haven't decided yet. I had a succesful hydra hunt with Lions where their S6 was important as I managed to inflict 5 wounds from 10-11 attacks. It would be more difficult for DP with their S5. They can stay longer in combat, cannot be thunderstomped but that S6 in this particular case does matter. On the other hand I failed to hunt down another hydra with Lions and DP as a team as my opponent better used terrain and exploited my bad positining in the meantime killing off my lions with shades. I think I am now better equipped for that role as I have more units and can protect lions from being a target. I wish I could have 2 banners like that

Next enemy - Skaven. That will be the proper test for my army as so far I had a luxury to play against armies with no shooting. What is more it is a main army for my regular opponent and he hopes that this time there will be no silly mistakes on his part

[Siegfried VII]

As to magical set-up I was wondering about it just for the sake of completeness. I still need more games with High Magic in order to have enough (for my liking) experience to say what works for me in particular. Which brings me to another point to the discussion about Light or High. It seems that you and Brewmaster somehow assume you will get Pha's Protection on the Archmage. Hence forcing BSB to take Light too in order to have better chances at getting it. What are you going to do if you don't get it, as it is still something that can happen? On the other hand I can always have Drain Magic and Shield and even have two of each. For me usefulness of the lore also comes from what kind of spell I can get as default. In this way I can add magic to the equation. While in your approach, when you assume you are going to have Pha's Protection you might find yourself in an uncomfortable position of having a plan build around a spell you don't have.

I can see your point, but in my case I have two Level 1 Mages, so the possibility of me not getting the spell I want is really small. If worse comes to worse, well poo happens I guess.

Next enemy - Skaven. That will be the proper test for my army as so far I had a luxury to play against armies with no shooting. What is more it is a main army for my regular opponent and he hopes that this time there will be no silly mistakes on his part

I will be looking forward for this as I believe Skaven to be one of the toughest match ups for us.

[Brewmaster_D]

It seems that you and Brewmaster somehow assume you will get Pha's Protection on the Archmage. Hence forcing BSB to take Light too in order to have better chances at getting it.

Personally, I would go with a more of a build like this in your list - Silver wand on the Archmage, then drop a few troops and scrounge up 140 points for a level 1 with the crystal. This lets you either gear your BSB more defensively, so you can be more confident throwing him into combat, or it lets you have S5 banishment and Drain Magic + Shield. It's also 3 attempts to channel, lending a bit more consistency to both your offensive and defensive phase.

I think if nothing else, the lore of light deserves to be tried for the sake of completeness. You're one of the first one this board to try a list like this with detailed battle reports, so it would be great to have a 360 view of the possibilities. However, I agree with you fully that you should finish testing things as they stand first.

D

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@Brewmaster
Knowing myself I am a little concerned about getting more characters and more toys. Despite the fact they are obviously useful I may again (see what I did to Seredain's army ) get myself into a force with too many characters and too few units.

As to completeness I think that at the moment your army and Siegfried's are fantastic examples of how to use Light Lore. And you have many MSU-like elements in your forces too so I doubt I would add anything significant or something you haven't showed yet But I am always happy to discuss battles and think what could have been achieved with light lore instead of high magic.

As to the next battle my opponent was kind enough to present his army list (without magic items of course) since it is a preparation period for me and I haven't played Skaven in 8th edition yet. Here we go:

Grey Seer on Bell + 40 Clanrats
Chieftain + 30+ (?) Stormvermin
BSB (probably strom banner, probably in bell unit)
warlock - level 1
2 x warlock (I am guessing in slaves units)

2 x 40 Slaves + 22 Slaves
2 x 6 gutter runners
2 x 5 giant rats with packmaster
3 jezzails (with champion)
2 cannons
abomnation
doom wheel

So not exactly the standard skaven army (whatever that might be) but with some typical nasty toys for sure. I would appreciate any suggestions on how would you try to take on this force with my army I have some ideas already but it is always good to listen to wiser and more experienced people

Cheers!

[Curu Olannon]

That's a nasty looking Skaven list and honestly I don't know how I would've approached it with your army. I guess taking out the Bell + rats is something you can actually accomplish as you will have a big deployment advantage. It does depend on him however, if he plays smart and defensively you likely won't be able to get through them all at a time during the course of 6 turns.

I guess high magic can prove useful here, especially if you can get Flames and Drain off. 13th is a HUGE threat to your army and its ridiculous cast value means that Drain is a really efficient counter (though by no means certain).

Best of luck to you - can't wait to hear how this all turned out

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Corrected the list, one jezzail team less

He has quite a few deployment drops too. He will probably keep his main unit in the center so the question is where is he going to position abomination and doom wheel. Two things I need to be careful about as I cannot flee from them. I presume they will be on flanks but he might as well position them together on one flank. Then it would be much harder to deal with them (even if dealing with them means simple diverting ).

I would very much like to get rid of gutter runners asap so hopefully my heavy cavalry will be in good position to chase them down. Archers will aim at them if possible too, as they can kill giant rats in combat so there is no need to waste arrows on this ones. I also need to use reavers to get to his cannons as I cannot count on that Storm banner will stop working early and my eagles could fly again. Besides I might need them for that redirecting duty too.

Lions with flame attacks supported by Swordmasters can put down one abomination so I will be looking for an opportunity to do so. If I don't do that on the first round, however, I will lose many warriors :/

Drain magic will be very useful and Shield can be handy on unit fighting against Abom and/or Doom Wheel. The rest depends on what spells I am going to get but whatever I am going to have will be very useful.

The main thing with this army is that is has so many different things I need to do something about. And I can but not necessarily at the same time

[Siegfried VII]

My experience versus Skaven is minimal, so unfortunately I cannot offer solid advice...

[Gwydion]

Hi Swordmaster,

just to add something to lore consideration. The main purpose of your army is to get combined charges against enemy troops by outmaneuvering them. I think that lore of shadow is better in this regard, because many of your units fight against one unit of the enemy (preferably). So in my opinion hexes are the way to go.

[Brewmaster_D]

Hey Swordmaster,

I believe I can be of some assistance here!

I'll give you my best guess as to how I would write his list given what we know:

Grey Seer, Skalm, Dispel Scroll, Screaming Bell - (500) (Heals all of his wounds once per game, don't forget about his D3 warpstone tokens)
Cheiftain, Foul pendant, Dragon Helm, Halbred - (101) (ish)
Cheiftain, Warpstone Armour, Rival Hide Talisman, BSB, Sheild (120) (Reroll all hits and wounds on him for one round of combat, armour that does a S4 hit for every successful save)
Engineer, Warp Energy Condenser, Level 1 (85) (Adds to the power of warp lightning and adds a power dice on a 5+)
Engineer, Doomrocket (45) (KABOOM)
Engineer (15)

40 Clanrats, Full Command - (200)
40 Slaves, Musician - (82)
40 Slaves, Musician - (82)
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster - (23)
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster - (23)
30 Stormvermin, Full Command, Storm Banner - (285)

6 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings - (108)
6 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings - (108)
3 Jezzails (73) (not sure on this one, I know they're 20 ish points, but I've never used them)

Warplightning Cannon - (90)
Warplightning Cannon - (90)
Doomwheel - (150)
Hellpit Abomination - (235)

Total: 2403

Now, on to the strategy. You've got a lot of things going for you. It'll be a tough match, but I think you bring lots to the table to threaten him here.

Risks:

Biggest risks in my eyes are the Dreaded 13th, Hellpit and the gutter runners. Dreaded 13th is nasty versus any MSU style army, however as has already been mentioned, Drain Magic makes the spell all but impossible short of irresistable force. Since there's not much you can do about that when it happens, All you can do is hope for the best.

with regards to the hellpit - it's got a wide base, so you can get 5 elves across on it. If you'd consider putting the flaming banner on a unit of White Lions, they would take care of it in one round of combat. Alternatively, you can try doing a combo of spears & elites, but now you're comitting quite a few more resources to dealing with the threat. I really don't like the Banner of Eternal flame on spears, but that's just me.

In terms of Gutter Runners, left alone, they'll force panic tests most turns for a unit, so I'd deal with them quite quickly. Good skaven generals scout them instead of infiltrate, so I would keep this in mind during deployment. Use your cavalry to dictate where they can and can't go, then use your own shooting to force panic tests on them each turn. They're only ld7 which is a big weakness.

Opportunities

The bell is a suboptimal choice in my opinion. Having said that, it'll be incredibly difficult to get the points off that unit for your list, so I'd probably just leave it alone and take other points. You've got no T7 in your army, so that result is a complete wash - I'd just be wary of the Scorch result. He gets to put down a S4 template anywhere within 24", bound level 5 I think.

There's plenty of points up for grabs though:

30 Stormvermin + Cheiftain - these guys will melt to a combo charge. They're only S4 with heavy armour, and there's lots of points up for grabs there

Hellpit - if you can deal with it in one round without taking impact hits, this is a nice chunk of change.

Warplightning Cannons - Your reavers are really going to pay dividends here. MSU makes you less vulnerable to what would otherwise be a very serious weapon in his arsenal.

Doomwheel - it's best suited to taking out big nasties, and since you don't really have any, you rob it of lots of opportunities. Just keep it away from your knights!

I'll post more as it comes to me.

D

[Prince of Spires]

Grey Seer on Bell + 40 Clanrats
Chieftain + 30+ (?) Stormvermin
BSB (probably strom banner, probably in bell unit)
warlock - level 1
2 x warlock (I am guessing in slaves units)

2 x 40 Slaves + 22 Slaves
2 x 6 gutter runners
2 x 5 giant rats with packmaster
3 jezzails (with champion)
2 cannons
abomnation
doom wheel

So not exactly the standard skaven army (whatever that might be) but with some typical nasty toys for sure. I would appreciate any suggestions on how would you try to take on this force with my army I have some ideas already but it is always good to listen to wiser and more experienced people

Cheers!

I am by no means an experienced player vs skaven, but the way to aproach it is to aim for the points and important bits. Firstly, as always, if you can take out the general / bsb then do so. It means that while his troops will still be steadfast, the slaves for instance will be steadfast on a 5. Once the general and bsb are gone, you can try to take out the slave units.

While the general/bsb are still around, go for the points. Whatever you do, keep in mind that a block of 40 slaves is 80 points. It will delay you and is used in ways similar to a GE (except that they are more anoying, can do more damage and stick around longer). So aim for the abomb, doomwheel, chieftan + stormvermins and cannons. Ignore the bell + 40 rat unit, unless you can either take out the grey seer or get a masive combo charge that lets you take it out in one or 2 rounds of combat.

As for magic, drain, flames and vauls are your friends I think. Flames on the big blocks (takes out half with 1 cast, if he lets it go on in his turn you have a nice ratshaped hole in his battle line). Vauls is great for taking out many of their toys (doomrocket, healing potion on the seer, stormbanner etc).

Last thing to remember is that if he does put one of the warlocks in a slave unit then if that unit is in combat he can't shoot / magic into that combat. He can only shoot into pure slave combats.

Rod