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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:30 am 
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Somewhere last week I had my first WH battle in a long while. To get back into it and because we knew we would be short on time (we ended up playing only 3 turns), my friend and I decided to go for a 2000pts battle.

I decided to go for a more unusual built (for me at least) and bring a list with Eltharion on Stormwing in it:
Lords:
Eltharion on Stormwing; 490
Death

Heros:
BSB; 170
Barded steed, dragon armour, charmed shield, ogre blade
Mage; 145
Lvl 2, High, scroll

Core:
10 Silver helms; 240
Shields, musician
17 Archers; 180
musician
5 reavers; 80

Special:
10 White lions; 140
musician
16 PG; 315
fc, armour piercing banner

Rare:
frostheart; 240

The list has 3 fast elements, 2 of them thunderstomping, 2 solid blocks and some shooting. Which makes it sort of similar to some other lists I've run, but it's lacking the more "all in" approach of a dragon list. Eltharion makes it a much more combined arms list. I decided to give him Death, since the short range is not much issue for a flyer and spirit leech can be very nasty with his LD 10. The other lore I considered for him was Beast. +1 S and +1T has a lot of utility for this list and can take any of the blocks from pretty decent to very nasty.

Any idea's on the list?

I faced a TK list. Which was something like (apologies for the lack of details here):

Settra

Ramhotep the Visionary
BSB
lvl2 Mage

55-ish Skeletons
5 Skeleton Horse Archers
10 Skeleton Horsemen

20 Tomb Guard
Khermrian Warsphinx (with breathweapon upgrade)
3 Necropolis Knights

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Eltharion and Settra. Some things just bring a tear to the eye :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:59 pm 
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The lists are interesting, they both seem a bit unconventional. I'd say you've got the advantage, the Tomb Kings have no warmachines and no archer spam, and I think you'll have even more of a maneuver advantage over the Tomb Kings than Elves normally have. The Tomb Guard are too small to be effective in my opinion, and I'm assuming most of the characters will go into the Skeleton Warriors.

For your list I like seeing Eltharion a lot, and I don't think some of the main issues I have with Stormwing will come up this game for you. I usually don't like Stormwing because of how incredibly easy he is to shoot to death, but your opponent has virtually no shooting, so that's no longer a concern. I'm not personally a big fan of the small units of Phoenix Guard and White Lions, but that's just because I don't usually go for an MSU play style at all, I'd prefer one larger unit of 25ish Guard or Lions.

I look forward to the game!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Somewhere last week I had my first WH battle in a long while. To get back into it and because we knew we would be short on time (we ended up playing only 3 turns), my friend and I decided to go for a 2000pts battle.

=D>

CaledorRises wrote:
the Tomb Kings have no warmachines and no archer spam

This, big win for the HE Monsters. I also feel TK’s need a stronger magic phase to really compete.

CaledorRises wrote:
The Tomb Guard are too small to be effective in my opinion, and I'm assuming most of the characters will go into the Skeleton Warriors.

Interesting. Given the buffs and the possibility of healing I’d kind of assumed all Heroes would go in the Tomb Guard. Trouble is, those characters will die in combat pretty quickly. The big unit of skellies might be a useful tarpit.

Settra and the Constructs look decent but with Ramhotep I’d have been tempted to drop the Warsphinx and enlarge the Necro Knights to double down on that AS re-rolling.

CaledorRises wrote:
For your list I like seeing Eltharion a lot

+1

CaledorRises wrote:
I'm not personally a big fan of the small units of Phoenix Guard and White Lions

Without true ASF I agree on the Lions. PG could be OK but I’d be happier with an Archmage on High Magic in the unit. If the Mage tries this I think he’ll die. I’m not sure sitting in the Archers suits him either though.

The Frostheart is obviously great and the Helm unit is decent. +1 match-up for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:03 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
I'd say you've got the advantage,

In my experience this is usually the case vs Tomb Kings. They're not the strongest or most competative of armies. Though it must be said that the special characters help a lot to add at least some powe to the list. And yes, there's a few options which give the TK more punch, like archer spam lists. But they're often less fun to play with / against and can be very rock-paper-scissors in nature.

Regarding Eltharion, I wanted to give the model a go. I recently assembled him, which is always a good reason. Stormwing is definitely not the strongest of choices. But he is better then a generic griffon (at least he has a decent save). So if you can keep him away from some of the things that can hurt him then he can work.

As for the PG, I've had a lot of succes with running them in a unit of 15 with full command and razor banner. They stick around and can take a lot of punishment. Because of this and LD9 they can function well on their own if needed. And they deal out a surprising amount of damage with 16 AP ASF attack who reroll to hit against all non-ASF units in the game (except for the frostheart). They almost always deliver.

Lions indeed are a slightly different beast. The lack of ASF hurts them. And if you want to make them a central unit in your army or plans then you definitely need to go above 10. I brought only 10 because I couldn't fit more of them in the list with the points available. And I wanted a second unit that could either deal with a small unit, warmachine, be an annoying roadblock or a pain to take in a flank. And with stubborn they do bring that (which is why I took them over SM).

I would have loved to bring an archmage. But that simply didn't fit in the list given the points level. And I really wanted a scroll in there. High was mainly there because it has some decent options for a low level mage (2 signatures, apotheosis etc).

Both lists were mainly put together to try some new stuff and go for fun options. They were by no means optimized.

Anyway, on to
Deployment
Here's the image of the end of the first TK turn (he went first). Sorry, forgot a pre-battle picture.
Image
The terrain had a fairly random scattering of pieces around the edges of the battle field. Which created a fairly open space over which to fight. From the start I figured I wanted to stay away from the buildings. They would either hinder movement, or delay my own unit. I had enough drops to let me figure out what my opponent would roughly do in terms of positioning.

In the end, we ended up with the following, from left to right:
Tomb kings:
Far left, horse archers, who would vanguard halfway up the board to between the buildings. The big skeleton unit (with the mage and BSB), Settra, Tomb Guard (with Ramothep), Horsemen, Warsphinx. The Necropolis knights were entombed beneath the sands.

High Elves:
Archers (almost at the back edge of the board), reavers, Phoenix guard (with the mage), White Lions and Silver helms (with the BSB). Phoenix and Eltharion are in the second rank, ready to relocate with a flying move.

--
Spells: I get Spirit Leech and soul blight on Eltharion and Soul Quench on the mage.
He has Time warp, the movement spell, the -D3 movement spell and the -1S/T spell.

All in all I'm decently happy with my deployment. I should be able to deal with the right flank while keeping his left out of the battle for a while, which is roughly my battle plan. I have ranged superiority I think. Not so much in terms of shooting (my archers are blind, they couldn't hit an elephant right in front of their noses). But mainly magic wise. So, I'll play a bit more passively, and focus on delaying the left flank while dealing with the right

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:50 am 
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On to turn one. TK player wins the roll off and decides to go first.

Tomb King Turn 1
Everything moves up. The horse archersmove to the flank of my archers. The skeleton and tomb guard move as far as they can, Settra moves up to keep pace with them. Same with the horsemen and the Warsphinx. These two turn slightly towards the edge of the board to face my right flank.

Magic:
Doesn't achieve much. He gets 6 dice (4-2) I get 5 (with a channel). He starts with the -D3 movement spell on the PG unit. I let it pass since I'm not really in a hurry to move forward anyway. I dispell the rest.

Shooting:
Again doesn't achieve much. He has something like 6 or 7 shooting attacks, which don't do any damage.

High Elf Turn 1
The archers attempt a swift reform to start shooting the horsemen. They of course manage to roll a 10 and being out on their own don't get a reroll. The perform a normal reform and just face the horsemen so they at least don't get them in the flank. The reavers move up a bit so they are now i a place where they can move in front of the entire TK army if needed. The White lions shuffle right a bit, Eltharion moves up between the WL and PG (so he's in range with most of his spells), and the SH unit moves and wheels a bit so they can pass between the two forests at the bottom of the field.

Magic:
Pretty big phase with 10 dice (6-4). I start off with Soul Quench on the skeleton unit, which my opponent lets pass, and I get 3 wounds on the unit. Then I go for Spirit Leech on the Warsphinx (which I consider the one model I don't want to run into when it's on full wounds) and manage to roll IF on 4 dice. I take 2 wounds off the model, but the subsquent miscast takes a wound of Eltharion and I lose some dice, which means I don't get anything else cast. Still, could have been worse.

Shooting doesn't achieve anything. The archers can't shoot because of the failed swift reform and Eltharions one attack doesn't do much.

Which give:
Image

Not a lot of action yet. It's mainly positioning (and the TK army being slow).

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:32 am 
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That's why we gave them marching rules per VC :lol:

Shame that the two centre-piece models in the TK army are the only ones not painted :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Though it must be said that the special characters help a lot to add at least some powe to the list.

I like Arkhan the Black, Lvl 5 Death Hierophant for the win!

:)

Advancing those TK Infantry quickly does look a challenge. Powering Settra forward looks really important. I’d kind of want to run something fast around that TK right but I get your reasoning for weighting your own right Rod. How do you plan to deal with the Necro Knights when (if?) they turn up?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:21 pm 
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I think on the whole your deployment is better, you've got much better force concentration, but I'd have gone left flank instead of right. Those big forests make me think the Silver Helms will have some trouble, and the fliers also could be bothered by them. I think your tactic of emphasizing one flank will really help against Tomb Kings due to their very low maneuverability, they cannot react as well.

As for turn 1 I think your opponent should have tried to wheel more. Maybe kept his left almost in place and advanced the right, I think you have a decent chance of crushing his left before the big Skeleton block can get engaged very well.

I'd actually have kept the Archers facing forwards! Trying to shoot a few wounds off the Skeleton horde or Settra before combat, which at the least reduces the freedom of magic your opponent has as he has to try to heal them back. 5 Skeleton Horse Archers charging your flank I think you could beat in a fight, particularly as the Archers are steadfast and have several ranks. Currently I think your opponent could just move the Horses out of your arc of fire this turn and make shooting hard for you next turn as well.

The miscast was unlucky, but fortunately not a particularly bad result.

I look forward to Turn 2!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:20 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
That's why we gave them marching rules per VC :lol:

Shame that the two centre-piece models in the TK army are the only ones not painted :wink:

I'll tell my opponent to paint faster ;)

I think giving the TK the VC march rules makes sense. Same with the crumbling rules. Currently, once you get the Hierophant you can pretty much sit back and watch the army fall apart. And it's not as if they really need another handicap anyway. Probably if we'll start playing more often we'll come up with some more house rules for them.

During deployment I had a choice of weighing either the left or the right flank. The big skeleton unit was placed early on, which made the TK army layout fairly clear early on. My reason for not going for the left flank then was that punching through 50+ skeletons is pretty hard. It would have taken a while I think. Which would have kept most of my army stuck in place while the rest of the TK army could have ganged up on me and barrelled down my flank. I'm fairly confident that I can deal with most things he has. But only on my terms. I don't want an untouched T8 monster or Settra in the flank of one of my units for instance.

The forests take a bit of navigating. But there is enough room for the SH to maneuvre without too much issue. And the TK are opening up quite a lot of room behind their line, which leaves enough room for the flyers to do as they please. This also shows what lack of shooting means, as I can simple put them down whereever and not fear any attacks, unless I want them to end up in combat. That level of board is golden.

As for the Necro knights, I don't really have a plan for them. It very much depends where and when they show up. The good thing about them is that they can't charge the turn they show up. Which means that yes, they can get in the way, but at least I can figure out what to do with them (as opposed to suddenly finding a unit stuck in combat).

I agree that it would probably have been better to keep the archers facing forward. Though with the swift reform they should have been able to deal with the horse archers soon enough I think. The issue is though that I've had some bad luck in the past with taking some horse archers in the flank of a unit outside of BSB range. With a charge + flank against two ranks (only one if I lose a single model) means wining combat is by no means a given. Especially because I only get 3 S3 attacks to my flank and don't have any save. This makes the chance of losing a first round of combat decent and the I'm looking at a LD7 (or worse) test without reroll. So this is the safe option.

Also, keep in mind that although they are fast cavalry, they can't march. So with M8 they actually have a harder time to get to safety then you'd think.

On to Turn 2.

Tomb King Turn 2
No charges. And the Necro knights fail to show up.
The horse archers walk around my archer unit, but they fail to get completely out of their charge arc. The big skeleton unit, Settra and the Tomb Guard shamble forward, the whole line wheeling slightly to my right. The skeleton horsemen move forward a bit to between the two central forests. And the Warsphinx moves left to stand next to the tomb guard.

Magic:
He has a small phase. He fails to cast his first spell and I dispell the rest.

Shooting:
Doesn't really do anything again.

High Elf turn 2
It's time to start moving. Charges first:
The Silver helms charge the horsemen and the archers charge the horse archers. Both make it in automatically (the SH take a couple of dangerous terrain tests, but pass them without issue).
In other movement, the reavers move forward to block Settra and the tomb guard. The White Lions move forward into the bottom of the central forest. The phoenix moves to the rear of the TK line, threatening the warsphinx with a charge from all sides. And Eltharion moves to the far right of the TK line.

Magic:
5 dice phase (3-2) where he gets a channel for 5 PD - 4 DD. I attempt apotheosis (just noticed I forgot to write having this spell down earlier...) on Eltharion, which rolls way to low, effectively ending my phase.

Shooting isn't really there.

Combat:
The archers get a lot of hits, do 3 wounds and my opponent manages to roll 3 sixes for his 6+ save. It happens... He does 2 wounds in return, tying the combat. Technically I win with my musician, but that doesn't mean much vs undead.
On the other side the SH and BSB go to town on the Skeleton horsemen. They do heavy damage and don't take any wounds in return (the 2+ armour save helps lots). The remaining horsemen crumble and the SH reform to face the TK flank.

This gives the following situation
Image

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
As for the Necro knights, I don't really have a plan for them. It very much depends where and when they show up. The good thing about them is that they can't charge the turn they show up. Which means that yes, they can get in the way, but at least I can figure out what to do with them (as opposed to suddenly finding a unit stuck in combat).

The no-charging thing is indeed big and getting the unit where it wants to go takes several dice rolls, which is rarely a good idea.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I agree that it would probably have been better to keep the archers facing forward. Though with the swift reform they should have been able to deal with the horse archers soon enough I think. The issue is though that I've had some bad luck in the past with taking some horse archers in the flank of a unit outside of BSB range. With a charge + flank against two ranks (only one if I lose a single model) means wining combat is by no means a given. Especially because I only get 3 S3 attacks to my flank and don't have any save. This makes the chance of losing a first round of combat decent and the I'm looking at a LD7 (or worse) test without reroll. So this is the safe option.

I believe the Archers would be Steadfast and hence Ld 8 for the Break test. Still think you’ve got a point though Rod.

Things look pretty good at the end of T2. I’d be tempted to charge with Settra, then if the Reavers Flee he can redirect. If they Hold I’m wondering whether Settra can line up without the Tomb Guard also charging to give him room. I guess they want to either win combat and Reform or just pull a Reform anyway. I’d be tempted to charge the Lions with the Warsphinx but those can Flee. Maybe then redirect into the Helms? It doesn’t look great but I think he’s going down anyway and it might buy the Infantry some time. HE’s definitely on top.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The archers get a lot of hits, do 3 wounds and my opponent manages to roll 3 sixes for his 6+ save. It happens... He does 2 wounds in return, tying the combat. Technically I win with my musician, but that doesn't mean much vs undead.


One horse should have crumbled I believe!

This turn looks very good for you. You've encircled the Sphinx very effectively and the Skeletons are still out of position. I think you've probably got the game at this point, he just cannot react well enough to your fast elements I think.

I think the best move for the Tomb Kings is to massively go after the Reavers and possibly the White Lions as well. I think the Tomb Guard and Settra definitely should charge the Reavers while the Skeletons wheel. The Tomb Guard can reform after and Settra can reform or overrun as he sees fit. The Sphinx I think has two moves. Either it adds in on the charge against the Reavers hoping to force a flee and then redirects into the Lions or it just charges the Lions. If the Reavers were forced to flee the rest of the army could charge as they will as well. If the Sphinx ends up going at the Lions I think it really needs to kill them all in one phase and then overrun otherwise it will almost certainly be destroyed.

All in all the Tomb Kings are in a bad place and need some real luck and careful moves to do well, so congrats on forcing them into this awkward position! I'm interested to see how they try to get out of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:01 pm 
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Good call on the crumble. You indeed win combat by one (as opposed to just win)

The lions indeed play a central role (for such a small unit). If you charge them you need to be sure to go through them in one turn, otherwise the helms, phoenix and eltharion can charge in. However, if you do go through them then you end up in no-mans land (the lions are angled in such a way that an overrun would take you past the PG. Which would effectively take the warsphinx out of the battle for one or two crucial turns.

Settra can't close the door stuck between the skeletons and tomb guard. Which means lining up the reavers instead. It was part of the reason I placed the reavers where I did. The TK line is really bunched together. And this way they all get in each others way. The way they are positioned means they can only really move forwards easily. Any wheel / pivot attempts has units running into each other. And it's only made worse with the low movement speed of the TK army (I think you need more then a full move to wheel the big skeleton unit 90 degrees for instance). And with the reavers there I delay a very big part of the army.

SpellArcher wrote:
The no-charging thing is indeed big and getting the unit where it wants to go takes several dice rolls, which is rarely a good idea.

This is why I'm not much of a fan of the entombed rules. It's too random and limiting to really be strong, unless you bring multiple units to even out the randomness a bit. But you already don't want to try and surface within 6'' of a board edge, since you have a decent chance to simply scatter off. And then you can't rely on them too much since you don't know when they'll surface. And at best they only really start doing stuff after a turn (or more likely two).

On to turn 3

Tomb King Turn 3
Charges:
The warsphinx goes for the White Lions. I hold because both possible outcomes are better for me then for him. And also, I don't want to give him the redirect into the SH unit (part of the reason he can't do that now is that it would mean taking a WL unit in the flank, but that's not the case if they flee).
Settra and the big skeleton unit go for the reavers. This takes a bit of finagling, but both fit in there. And crucially (and overlooked by me at least), it offers the fastest way for the skeleton unit to get in a place where it can participate in the battle. After all, you get a 90 degree wheel and unlimited movement while charging, whereas a normal move would have left the stuck somewhere in the middle of the field.

In other movement, the necro knights show up, about equal distance from the reavers, white lions and phoenix guard.
The Tomb Guard reform to face the right flank

Magic:
Again gives an average phase. I scroll the movement spell on the phoenix guard and dispell the rest.

Shooting: no shooting with everything in combat

Combat:
The archers finally get their act together vs the horse archers. They again deal 3 wounds, but now my opponent fails his 6+ armour save. In return he kills one archer. The remaining horse archers crumble and the archers reform to face the centre of the battlefield.
Settra and the skeletons kill all the reavers for no wounds in return. They reform and both now face the right flank (it's starting to look like we're playing battle for the pass...).
In the warsphinx combat my opponent recognizes that he needs to go through the WL in a single turn, so he adds in the breathweapon. He manages to (just) kill all the WL, for no wounds in return and he overruns through the forest to next to the PG unit.

High Elf Turn 3
Charges: The SH, Phoenix and Eltharion charge the Tomb Guard unit.
The PG charge the necro knights.

Other movement: The archers walk towards the big skeleton block (so they can still shoot later on).

Magic:
5-2 phase. I draw out my opponents scroll and as a result don't get anything cast. But at least a 5 is something the phoenix can work with.

Shooting: the archers take a couple of wounds off the skeleton unit.

Combat:
The Phoenix Guard show their worth. They deal 5 wounds to the necro knights and take 2 in return. With 2 ranks and a banner I win combat by 5, which is enough to crumble the rest of the knights. The PG reform slightly to keep everything in front.
In the big combat, 3 SH bite the dust as well as a lot of Tomb Guard. Once the dust settles, 8 Tomb Guard and Ramhotep remain.

This gives
Image

As mentioned at the start, we decide to call it here. Time's up, unfortunately.

We don't add up any points, it feels a bit silly to try to determine a winner at what feels like the middle of the battle. We both agree that I'm probably in a better position. The tomb guard will disappear over the next turn. But until they do so they prevent Settra from doing a lot since he can't really get around them. The warsphinx is also out of the battle for at least a turn but probably 2, since the PG prevent him from effectively wheeling around to get back into the action.
At the same time, I only lost the WL and reavers and I'm in a good position to deal with Settra and have enough lined up to do some serious damage to the skeletons (though getting through them will take a long time). Especially being able to deny Settra his impact hits is pretty big I think.

All in all, a fun battle.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:02 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The Phoenix Guard show their worth. They deal 5 wounds to the necro knights and take 2 in return. With 2 ranks and a banner I win combat by 5, which is enough to crumble the rest of the knights.


With a charge, 2 ranks and a banner and a 3 wound advantage wouldn't they have won by 7? Either way, I'm surprised the Knights went down that fast. I always hear about them being one of the better Tomb King units, but I admit I don't know their stats. Are Phoenix Guard just a really bad opponent for them?

Prince of Spires wrote:
In the big combat, 3 SH bite the dust as well as a lot of Tomb Guard. Once the dust settles, 8 Tomb Guard and Ramhotep remain.


This surprised me a lot! I'm shocked the Tomb Guard weren't wiped out in a single round of combat considering the dual Thunderstomps (including a S6 one), Eltharion, Stormwing, and then all the Silver Helms. Did you roll quite poorly, or did he roll exceptionally well?


I still think you're at the advantage at the end of Turn 3, but the surprising hold of the Tomb Guard gives your opponent a chance. I think if the Skeleton Horde went into the Phoenix Guard then Settra might be able to charge the Silver Helms based on the picture, it looks like he could wheel to hit the far left side of the Helms. The Sphinx I think would only be out for a single turn, since it can pivot for free it can get behind the Phoenix Guard easily and charge them in T5, the Skeletons just have to hope they can hold on long enough. The Phoenix Guard are very well suited to chop down large numbers of that Skeleton horde, but there are enough Skeletons there that I'd guess they could last two rounds of combat, assuming nothing else gets engaged.

Well played! Your flanking move has overwhelmed the Tomb King left quite well and he's in a bit of an uncomfortable situation, I think if the game continued your victory is very nearly assured.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:45 am 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
The Phoenix Guard show their worth. They deal 5 wounds to the necro knights and take 2 in return. With 2 ranks and a banner I win combat by 5, which is enough to crumble the rest of the knights.


With a charge, 2 ranks and a banner and a 3 wound advantage wouldn't they have won by 7? Either way, I'm surprised the Knights went down that fast. I always hear about them being one of the better Tomb King units, but I admit I don't know their stats. Are Phoenix Guard just a really bad opponent for them?

It was probably indeed 7. Counting is difficult... ;)

I think that in general PG are a pretty tough opponent for TK. Already, with ASF I was able to remove a model before it got to strike, which reduced the number of attacks by 1/3. Then, when you haven't charged, only the mounts are really dangerous. And with 6 attacks, you will get 1.5 wounds on average vs a 4+ ward. So the rolling was pretty average. I think you can conclude that the knights are one of the better TK units. But that probably sais more about TK then about the knights.

It also shows why I like the 15-strong PG unit with the razor banner. With the ASF reroll you will hit with 75-90% of all the attacks reliably. And armour piercing S4 is pretty good with that volume of attacks against things that don't have a high armour save. The necro knights only have a 3+ armour save. Which is not that great for monstrous cavalry. So the PG actually have a higher damage output per 1'' of frontage then the knights. And they have that in each turn of a combat, not just the first. The ward save helps a lot as well, since it gives them a virtual 30 wounds (except against things like dwellers which don't allow any saves). It would have been even better if I had gotten a high magic spell cast, which would have taken the ward up to 3+.

CaledorRises wrote:
This surprised me a lot! I'm shocked the Tomb Guard weren't wiped out in a single round of combat considering the dual Thunderstomps (including a S6 one), Eltharion, Stormwing, and then all the Silver Helms. Did you roll quite poorly, or did he roll exceptionally well?

I think it was a combination of things. 20 elite models is hard to get through in one turn for elves. They were helped a lot by Settra which gave them WS7. I also seem to remember that they had a 6+ regen save (from one of the characters floating around). But I really should start taking better notes on that sort of stuff... ;) It also helped that not all SH got to attack and that they had 3 ranks before they started crumbling.

But yeah, on average I should have dealt about 12 wounds. Which would have crumbled the rest. On the other hand, this would have exposed me to a charge from Settra, which I wouldn't want to take.

As for the current situation. Settra might be able to get into the SH unit. But I'm not sure that's a good idea. By focussing on the TG I should be able to deal enough damage to just crumble him I think. Depending a bit on how well he rolls for impact hits of course. But he should go down either in his turn or the next. If it was just Settra vs the SH unit then it would have been different. But the fact that both monsters and the TG are in that same combat gives up too much combat res. And if he sticks around for another round of combat he doesn't have his impact hits anymore and I can either kill more Tomb guard or probably charge him in the flank with eltharion.

The PG might indeed be in a pickle and need to stick around until help arrives. Which very much depends on how fast the tomb guard combat goes. I'm confident they can hold out against the skeletons for a while. Sticking around without help is what they are good at. And even the warsphinx might not be too big a problem. The ward save makes a difference. But it will come down to detail like "is Settra within 6'' to give them WS7" and "can the archers make the flank charge in my turn"? But if the archers can make it in then I'm confident that I can reduce the skeletons by half before the warsphinx gets into the fight. And then the warspinx might just crumble together with the skeletons.

In general, I think I played decently. Writing up the battle report actually makes me wonder if using the reavers in turn 2 was actually necessary. Yes, it would have offered the tomb guard a bit more space to move around. They could have charged the white lions together with the warphinx to get away from my right flank and they probably would have overrun into the PG. On the other hand, Settra would then have been pretty much in the op and would have taken a charge from the SH and Eltharion. And the phoenix would then be free to help the PG against the tomb guard. Waiting with the reavers would have slowed the skeleton horde down and would have given me some redirection options in T3 or 4.

I do think the patience in T1 and T2 paid off. The positioning let me combine the heavy hitters of my army on only a part of his. Which let me snowball the fight to where I'm decently confident I could win.

I actually think that my opponent deployed wrong for how he played the army. As mentioned earlier, the limited space between the different units and low movement speed meant that he had few options for the central part of his army other then move forward. Leaving even just an extra 1'' between units would have changed this a lot and would have let Settra wheel towards my flank and threaten some combo charges.

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It also shows why I like the 15-strong PG unit with the razor banner. With the ASF reroll you will hit with 75-90% of all the attacks reliably. And armour piercing S4 is pretty good with that volume of attacks against things that don't have a high armour save. The necro knights only have a 3+ armour save. Which is not that great for monstrous cavalry. So the PG actually have a higher damage output per 1'' of frontage then the knights. And they have that in each turn of a combat, not just the first. The ward save helps a lot as well, since it gives them a virtual 30 wounds (except against things like dwellers which don't allow any saves). It would have been even better if I had gotten a high magic spell cast, which would have taken the ward up to 3+.


I definitely agree about the Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner, I use them a lot in my lists, but I'm just not a fan of the 15 strong unit. You're only likely to get the 16 attacks once during the game, if you ever get it since the first casualty starts to remove attacks from the unit. I always run my Phoenix Guard 4 deep so that they have a few ablative wounds in case of shooting/magic before combat or to allow them to continue to have their full hitting power after one or more rounds of combat.

Prince of Spires wrote:
On the other hand, this would have exposed me to a charge from Settra, which I wouldn't want to take.


Unless you overran into Settra! It looked like a possible overrun from the image, didn't look excessively far.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:12 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
In the warsphinx combat my opponent recognizes that he needs to go through the WL in a single turn, so he adds in the breathweapon. He manages to (just) kill all the WL, for no wounds in return and he overruns through the forest to next to the PG unit.

I wondered about this because if just one Lion remains and the Break test is passed (very likely) a flank charge from the Helms looks fatal. On the other hand if he hadn’t used the Breath Weapon and had Thunderstomped low that could have left quite a few Lions to score combat res from next turn.

CaledorRises wrote:
With a charge, 2 ranks and a banner and a 3 wound advantage wouldn't they have won by 7? Either way, I'm surprised the Knights went down that fast. I always hear about them being one of the better Tomb King units, but I admit I don't know their stats. Are Phoenix Guard just a really bad opponent for them?

In my experience moderate-sized elite infantry can handle 3 Monstrous cavalry (maybe not Skullcrushers). I’ve ground down Demigryphs with Wildwood Rangers before. Admittedly I had 20 but PG are better as Rod illustrates. I guess if the Knights had charged they might have lasted longer. Did your opponent roll to see which Construct unit benefitted from AS re-rolls because of Ramhotep Rod?

Prince of Spires wrote:
If it was just Settra vs the SH unit then it would have been different. But the fact that both monsters and the TG are in that same combat gives up too much combat res.

I tend to agree, the 2+ AS looks really useful here. The TK are still fighting but I like the look of the final position for you Rod, well played!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:28 am 
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CaledorRises wrote:
I definitely agree about the Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner, I use them a lot in my lists, but I'm just not a fan of the 15 strong unit. You're only likely to get the 16 attacks once during the game, if you ever get it since the first casualty starts to remove attacks from the unit. I always run my Phoenix Guard 4 deep so that they have a few ablative wounds in case of shooting/magic before combat or to allow them to continue to have their full hitting power after one or more rounds of combat.

It's a way of optimizing my list. I find that for my playstyle they tend to go down slowly enough. Which makes it that the extra models put into the unit are points which can be better spend somewhere else. Though here it should be noted that my opponent and I usually play fairly soft lists and that I'm a better player then my opponent. So it may very well be that if I would run into large deathstars or big units of monstrous cavalry I would have a different opinion. But in "my meta" they are more then up for the job.

CaledorRises wrote:
Unless you overran into Settra! It looked like a possible overrun from the image, didn't look excessively far.

We had ruled that you couldn't overrun aftert a unit crumbled. It was what my opponent argued and I didn't feel like looking up the actual rules. So that wouldn't have happened. But looking back at the rules that would have indeed been possible (since overruns happen right at the end of the combat round).
SpellArcher wrote:
I wondered about this because if just one Lion remains and the Break test is passed (very likely) a flank charge from the Helms looks fatal. On the other hand if he hadn’t used the Breath Weapon and had Thunderstomped low that could have left quite a few Lions to score combat res from next turn.

The breathweapon was crucial here. There was 1 WL remaining before the breathweapon (after tunderstomp). And he would have had a re-rollable LD8 breaktest. So pretty likely to remain.

SpellArcher wrote:
In my experience moderate-sized elite infantry can handle 3 Monstrous cavalry (maybe not Skullcrushers). I’ve ground down Demigryphs with Wildwood Rangers before. Admittedly I had 20 but PG are better as Rod illustrates. I guess if the Knights had charged they might have lasted longer. Did your opponent roll to see which Construct unit benefitted from AS re-rolls because of Ramhotep Rod?

My opponent did indeed. The warsphinx ended up with the reroll.

I think the issue with the PG vs the necro knights is the combination of ASF and only having a 3+ AS. 3+ just isn't very good against either a lot of attacks or decently high S attacks. This let me take out a whole model for 1/3rd of the attacks of the whole model before it got to strike. And getting charged mean that the spears of the riders (I think that's what they have) were pretty useless.

The necro knights were a first attempt from GW at monstrous cavalry. And it's actually a pretty balanced attempt. But that means it's underpowered compared to the later MC models.

TK are actually a weird army. Everything about them suggests that they should be a fast moving, hit and run type of army. They have lots of chariots. They can create an army that has almost no deployment drops. There is (flying) monsters and their shooting is not impacted by movement. But despite all this they are actually a very slow army. I wonder if letting them march as normal (so even outside of general range) and maybe even giving the chariots march would completely change the army. It would still be a fairly weak combat army. But it could run circles around you, you could find MC units showing up in your backline, take a lot of impact hits in the flank and so on. It would be a very interesting army and unique to play I think.

@RE.Lee, what's your experience with this?

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:42 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
We had ruled that you couldn't overrun aftert a unit crumbled. It was what my opponent argued and I didn't feel like looking up the actual rules. So that wouldn't have happened. But looking back at the rules that would have indeed been possible (since overruns happen right at the end of the combat round).

The funny thing is GW FAQ’d this at one point to forbid Overrunning. Their next FAQ reversed this back!

Prince of Spires wrote:
The breathweapon was crucial here. There was 1 WL remaining before the breathweapon (after tunderstomp). And he would have had a re-rollable LD8 breaktest. So pretty likely to remain.

I believe the Breath Weapon should come at Initiative 1, so before Thunderstomp. I guess at that point the best bet would be to use it anyway and go for the wipeout.

Prince of Spires wrote:
TK are actually a weird army. Everything about them suggests that they should be a fast moving, hit and run type of army.

That’s how they worked under the first army book, in 6th Edition. All down to the magic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:48 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I believe the Breath Weapon should come at Initiative 1, so before Thunderstomp. I guess at that point the best bet would be to use it anyway and go for the wipeout.

True indeed. It's at the initiative step of the model. Didn't really matter (since my opponent declared he wanted to use it anyway). And I would have let him have it even if he hadn't.
SpellArcher wrote:
That’s how they worked under the first army book, in 6th Edition. All down to the magic.

Yeah, TK magic was a pretty interesting thing in their 6th ed. book. It's a shame that it disappeared and they got very little in return.

Rod

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