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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:06 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
The Grand Master is dangerous but I can’t help thinking a 1+ AS alone isn’t enough on a Lord lacking ASF or something. The magic is decent, Dwellers is almost always a threat. The Prayers can be a handful, though Flesh is the only spell here that kind of works with them. No Magic Missiles for example though. Helblasters lacking Engineers aren’t that scary but those two cannon are clearly the issue. Again I feel this is probably a par match-up, possibly a +1 to you CR.


I agree on the Grand Master. The loadout he had makes him extremely dangerous in a challenge, but only if he lives long enough to attack, which is definitely not a guarantee. I think most characters built for challenges will beat him, simply by killing him before he gets to attack.

SpellArcher wrote:
Getting stuck on the Giants was obviously a real problem for your opponent because it set him up horribly for those charges. After those Overruns he’s already in huge trouble.


The Giant going after his Steam Tank was just unlucky for him, it definitely made a big difference as it put my Dragon Princes into a very dangerous spot for him. Having the Demigryphs charge the other Giant I'm not sure about as a decision, as the Giant could always have headed towards him on my turn and caused significant damage, but the Demigryphs were not likely to kill the Giant in one round. On the other hand with charging Silver Helms and Frosthearts there was a good chance I'd kill the Giant in one round on my turn if the Giant stayed where it was, so I would have gotten overruns anyways. It was a difficult position to be in.

SpellArcher wrote:
Your Archers deciding to hold on snake eyes was just rude!


:D

SpellArcher wrote:
Great tournament result and richly deserved Best Sports CR.


Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Post Worcester Thoughts

The event went very well, and I like my army list quite well. The Silver Helm unit that didn't seem to perform well and didn't have much of a great purpose at Hockley I think I've figured out how to use much better so that this event it performed well in Games 1 and 3, and in Game 2 was just in a bad position. The Star Dragon on the whole fared much better this tournament as well, the Prince and Dragon both survived all three battles, again I think I've learned how to use it a bit better, but the lists that were killing the Dragon at Hockley were also tougher than the ones I faced here. The Banner of the World Dragon interestingly didn't do much in this event, it was useless in Games 1 and 2, but it did save my BSB in Game 3. The stronger magic phase was also helpful, though it wasn't as good as I thought it would be. Generally I was better able to resist enemy magic than casting my own spells. I'm not certain if Heavens was the best lore to go with in this case, and I will look around at other lores a bit more.

The unit I was most disappointed with was the Archers. In Game 1 they killed a unit of Jezzails, which was definitely helpful, but in Games 2 and 3 they failed to kill any warmachines, and their benefit in Game 3 was solely in providing a roadblock to the Knight Bus, but that was pure luck not having them be annihilated and run down. I'm not certain what I'd replace them with, because the Mages still need a bunker of some kind unless they were mounted, but I don't know where the points for the horses would come from. More Reavers could be an interesting addition, it would improve my anti-warmachine hunting and would also help control the board more.

I don't think I'll be changing the list soon, but it is something I'll be thinking about. I'm not certain when my next event will be, there's another Northeast Tournament in August I'm considering, but that could be the perfect motivation I need to get my Lizardmen painted up for.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:36 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
The Star Dragon on the whole fared much better this tournament as well, the Prince and Dragon both survived all three battles, again I think I've learned how to use it a bit better, but the lists that were killing the Dragon at Hockley were also tougher than the ones I faced here.

You definitely seemed to play the dragon right here CR. Arguably you were slightly unlucky with it at Hockley also.

CaledorRises wrote:
The Banner of the World Dragon interestingly didn't do much in this event, it was useless in Games 1 and 2, but it did save my BSB in Game 3.

Be interesting to see some more games with it. Would you keep it in the list?

CaledorRises wrote:
The stronger magic phase was also helpful, though it wasn't as good as I thought it would be. Generally I was better able to resist enemy magic than casting my own spells. I'm not certain if Heavens was the best lore to go with in this case, and I will look around at other lores a bit more.

The unit I was most disappointed with was the Archers.

I’m wondering whether a spell like Hand of Glory or The Withering might make a difference to these guys.

CaledorRises wrote:
I'm not certain when my next event will be, there's another Northeast Tournament in August I'm considering, but that could be the perfect motivation I need to get my Lizardmen painted up for.

Be interested to see that!

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:06 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Be interesting to see some more games with it. Would you keep it in the list?


I think I will keep it in my competitive version of the list, at least for now. I don't think three games is enough to know about it, it could be a bit of a fluke that I only faced magical attacks once with it, and in the third game saving the BSB was actually very important because he went on to do half of the damage to the Reiksguard that charged the Dragon Princes' rear. It didn't determine the game, but I think it definitely would have been a smaller victory had I not had the banner.

SpellArcher wrote:
I’m wondering whether a spell like Hand of Glory or The Withering might make a difference to these guys.


Shadow is a Lore I was considering, but I think the spells have a bit too high of casting values for Level 2 wizards to do well with them. I've been looking at Metal, Light, and High Magic as some alternatives, I want to keep mostly high ranged spells. One thing I'm unsure of is if it's best to choose a lore that has spells to buff the Archers, or just get rid of the Archers. My thought with Heavens was that it would be a good lore to assist the rest of my army, but then it leaves the Archers in the cold. I need to do some thinking here, but the Archers will probably stay for a while at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:11 am 
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Game 13: Lizardmen vs Orcs and Goblins

This isn't a High Elf game! I didn't want to start a new thread, though, so I'll toss it in here anyways. I wanted to switch things up a bit and go back to my Lizardmen for this game. I've been purely focused on painting High Elves lately, though, so my Lizardmen list is the same as one I've fielded before. It's a weaker version of the list I'd like to build up to.

Lizardmen:
Saurus Oldblood mounted on Carnosaur w/ Loping Stride, Bloodroar, Armor of Destiny, Ogre Blade
Saurus Scar-Veteran BSB w/ Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Light Armor
Saurus Scar-Veteran w/ Dawnstone, Light Armor, Shield, Dragonhelm
Skink Priest Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll, Lore of Heavens
Skink Priest Level 2 w/ Cube of Darkness, Lore of Heavens
30x Saurus Warriors FC w/ Spears
18x Saurus Warriors FC
10x Skink
10x Skink Skirmishers
Ancient Stegadon w/ Engine of the Gods, Sharpened Horns, Unstoppable Stampede
Stegadon w/ Sharpened Horns, Unstoppable Stampede
Troglodon

Orcs and Goblins:
Grimgor Ironhide
Savage Orc Shaman Level 4 w/ Lucky Shrunken Head, stuff
Black Orc BSB w/ Razor Standard
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2
39x Savage Orcs Big Uns w/ Shields
20x Night Goblins w/ 1x Fanatic, Short Bows
25ish Night Goblins w/ 2x Fanatic
5x Spider Riders
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Rock Lobba
Doom Diver Catapult
29x Black Orcs
Snotling Pump Wagon
Orc Boar Chariot

Magic:
Goblin Shaman: Night Shroud, Gift of the Spider God
Goblin Shaman: Gork'll Fix It, Vindictive Glare
Great Shaman: Foot of Gork, Ere We Go, Hand of Gork, Fist of Gork

Skink Priest: Iceshard Blizzard, Comet of Cassandora
Skink Priest: Urannon's Thunderbolt, Curse of the Midnight Wind

Deployment:
I chose to hold my left flank at a large manor on a hilltop with the Ancient Stegadon. The wizard bunker and the small Saurus block deployed next to the Stegadon, with the Skirmishers in the center of the line. To the right in my main effort was the Stegadon and the large Saurus block, and on my far right flank I put the Troglodon and the Carnosaur. My opponent mirrored my line with his right anchored on the Night Goblin Archers. A single Spear Chukka was on the hill shielded by a tower with the Chariot and the Spiders next to it, while the Night Goblins were behind. The center of his line had the Immortals and the left flank the Savage Orcs and the Pump Wagon. The other warmachines were behind. The Spiders vanguarded towards the center.

Image
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Initial Thoughts:
The two large Orc blocks are serious threats. The Orc line is very similar to mine in weighting, the main fight will happen on my right. Defeating either Orc block depends on me getting multiple units in at the same time, the large Saurus block could hold out a little while, but not long in my opinion. Grimgor can also kill any of my monsters, very possibly in a single round of combat. My opponent has strong close combat and strong magic, and a decent shooting phase as well which will make this game difficult for me as my list is primarily combat based and doesn't have a substantial maneuver advantage. I'll try to advance my left flank relatively quickly, though I was initially planning on pivoting on that flank my opponent has dropped most of his power on his left, so my left is surprisingly secure.

Lizardmen Turn 1:
Keeping with the plan the Lizardmen left advanced forwards towards the center while the Skinks moved up to deal with the Spiders and impede the Black Orcs. My monsters moved up at full speed, staying well away from the Savage Orcs. The center pushed forwards a bit, but not dangerously far.
Magic was 8-5, Comet was dispelled and Thunderbolt hit the Chariot for 3 wounds. Iceshard Blizzard failed to cast.
Shooting killed 2 of the Spiders.

Image
Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 1:
The Night Goblin Archers fail Animosity and fight with the nearby Night Goblins, killing 1 Archers and 2 from the other unit. The rest of the line advances at a fairly even pace. The Savage Orcs hold back a bit so that they aren't in much danger and the monsters aren't on their flank. The Pump Wagon misfired and had to head towards the monsters.
Magic was 6-4 and put Gift of the Spider God on the Savage Orcs as well as Ere We Go, while a large Foot of Gork cast was scrolled.
Shooting inflicted no damage with a large scatter of the Rock Lobba and a bad Doom Diver roll not wounding the Saurus.

(picture note, due to the forest the Black Orc unit is denoted by the two Orc columns on either side of the forest)
Image
Image

Lizardmen Turn 2:
The Carnosaur charged the Pump Wagon while the Ancient Stegadon failed its charge at the Chariot. The Troglodon moved around the tower on my right to begin taking down warmachines. The Skinks moved up to redirect the Black Orcs away from my center.
Magic was 9-6, Comet was dispelled again, Blizzard went off on a Bolt Thrower, Thunderbolt was dispelled, and the bound spell failed to cast from the EotG.
The Skinks managed to kill 3 Black Orcs with some good shooting.
The Carnosaur killed the Pump Wagon and reformed to face the side of the Savage Orcs.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 2:
The Chariot charged the Ancient Stegadon but the Skinks on top killed it in the Stand and Shoot reaction. The Black Orcs charged the Skirmishers losing 2 more to the stand and shoot. The rest of the army advanced forwards.
Magic was 5-3. Gift of the Spider God went onto the Savage Orcs, Vindictive Glare hit the Ancient Stegadon for a wound, and then the third roll of 10 on a two dice cast put Ere We Go on the Savage Orcs. To make matters even worse, Hand of Gork went off on the Savage Orcs after the Cube of Darkness failed to stop it. The Savage Orcs moved forwards and turned around to turn my flank.
The Rock Lobba killed 2 Saurus and the Doom Diver misfired.
The Skinks were obliterated by the Black Orcs, who reformed to face my line again.

Image

Lizardmen Turn 3:
In a desperate attempt to turn things around, the Carnosaur, the Ancient Stegadon, and the Saurus Warriors all charged the Black Orcs, all of which were average charge ranges. The Stegadon charged the Spiders to try to get the overrun into the Black Orcs. The small Saurus block also tried for a 10" charge on the Black Orcs since they might as well. The Ancient Stegadon, the small Saurus, and the Carnosaur all failed their charges, putting the Carnosaur in a terrible position. The Stegadon and the large Saurus block both made their targets. The Troglodon charged the Rock Lobba.
Magic was 6-6, Curse was dispelled and Blizzard hit the Black Orcs.
The Troglodon killed the Rock Lobba and overran into a Spear Chukka. The Stegadon killed the Spiders and overran into the Black Orcs. In that combat the Stegadon took 3 wounds and 7 Saurus died, but 17 Black Orcs were killed in response, and the Black Orcs broke. They escaped the pursuit, however.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 3:
The Black Orcs rallied, the Savage Orcs charged the Carnosaur. Animosity sent the Goblin Archers into the Ancient Stegadon. However, this also sent them through their own Fanatic that was launched at the Stegadon during the charge, and sent them through a Fanatic from the other Goblins that had been launched when the pursuing Saurus got close, which killed 13 Archers.
Magic was 9-6. A 2 dice Gift of the Spider God got through the 3 dice dispel on the Savage Orcs, Vindictive Glare killed 2 Saurus, Gork'll Fix It hit the Ancient Stegadon, Fist of Gork went off on the Great Shaman, and Ere We Go and Nightshroud both failed to cast.
The Stegadon lost another wound to a Bolt Thrower.
The Ancient Stegadon wiped out the Archers while the Troglodon killed the Bolt Thrower and overran to the Doom Diver. The Oldblood issued a challenge to send the Shaman to the rear of the Savage Orcs. A shocking number of 1s to wound then saw a single Savage Orc die along with the BSB, while the Carnosaur was killed. The Oldblood fled but escaped pursuit.

Image

Lizardmen Turn 4:
The small Saurus unit and the Ancient Stegadon charged the Night Goblins while the large Saurus unit charged the Black Orcs. The Oldblood rallied.
Magic was 9-6 again, Curse of the Midnight Wind hit the Night Goblins, Blizzard hit the Black Orcs, and the Comet was cast near the Savage Orcs.
The Night Goblins caused no damage at the cost of 17 greenskins, causing them to break, but again escaping pursuit. The Troglodon failed to kill the Doom Diver. Grimgor pulped a Scar-Veteran and 2 more Saurus died along with 4 Black Orcs, but Grimgor broke from combat and was caught.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 4:
The Goblins didn't rally, the Savage Orcs reformed towards the majority of my army instead of charging the Oldblood.
Magic was 6-3, the Goblin Shaman ate a bad mushroom and failed to cast. Hand of Gork went off and shunted the Orcs forwards. The Comet came in and wounded the Oldblood once and killed 3 Savage Orcs.
The Spear Chukka about 1" away from the Ancient Stegadon fired a desperate shot and wounded it 3 times.
The Troglodon killed the Doom Diver.

Image

Lizardmen Turn 5:
The Ancient Stegadon charged the Spear Chukka after charging the Night Goblins to force them to flee and redirecting. The rest of the army reformed and turned to encircle the Savage Orcs. The small Saurus would sacrifice themselves for the Great Plan and hope that the overrun didn't take the Savage Orcs outside of the charge arc of the rest of the army.
Magic was 10-7. Thunderbolt killed 2 Orcs while Curse was dispelled. Iceshard then rolled up a Dimensional Cascade and killed 9 Skinks in the bunker and wounded the Priest.
Shooting killed 2 more Savage Orcs.
The Ancient Stegadon pasted the Spear Chukka.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 5:
The Savage Orcs charged the Saurus Warriors to their front.
Magic was another 5-3 phase that put Gift of the Spider God on the Savage Orcs as well as Ere We Go as it got through the dispel due to the Lore Attribute. Fist of Gork also went off.
Combat killed a single Savage Orc and 6 Saurus, but due to the Cold Blooded leadership and the BSB the Saurus stayed stuck in combat with a double-1.

Image

Lizardmen Turn 6:
Everything charged in, the Saurus and Troglodon on one side, the Oldblood in the rear, and the Stegadon in the other side.
The Troglodon used its Primeval Roar to boost combat and at the end 6 Saurus were dead along with 14 Savage Orcs. The Savage Orcs broke and were destroyed.


Lizardmen Victory!

Thoughts:
This game was a very tough fight. I have to say, the Orc magic phases that my opponent uses have been the strongest magic phases that I have ever faced. The Night Goblin casting ability is phenomenal, my opponent only ever 1-dice casts the spells, relying on the mushroom to help out, and despite the risks it almost always works. When the Little Waagh attribute goes off then he gets the spell for free and weakens my dispel. I don't really know how to counter these Orc magic phases, they were very strong. I think attempting high castings of Foot of Gork could have really helped my opponent by smashing some of my units, but there was only one phase where I think that might have been a really good option, the other two times he had good Foot targets he used Hand of Gork to great effect. I think tactically the biggest mistake was having Grimgor fight Saurus in the central battle, killing the Stegadon could have been very helpful, though it wouldn't have saved the Black Orcs. My charge of the Carnosaur towards the Black Orcs was definitely a mistake, it was an average charge range, but that still left about a 50% chance of failure, and failure would definitely kill the Carnosaur due to the Savage Orcs being on the flank, so I shouldn't have done it. I definitely overestimated the Black Orcs, I thought that I would need much of my army to deal with them but the Saurus alone were surprisingly good at handling them. The Hand of Gork redeployment of the Savage Orcs was an excellent move and threw me off badly, I took quite a while deciding my moves the next turn, but I think that I mostly handled it with the correct counters. The Troglodon also did decently this game as a warmachine hunter, but 200 points is a very expensive warmachine hunter and I don't think it was worth that whole total. That said, I was pleasantly surprised with its performance this game, it definitely contributed some in the final battle as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:42 pm 
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We’ve discussed your list pretty much before I guess CR? Obviously you’ve got the Monsters which are good against Infantry and your magic defence is solid against big spells. Your Infantry block is pretty good with those characters. Your foe has some Artillery which is a concern and good magic, plus some floating Impact Hits and such. The Savage Orcs are good. Black Orcs aren’t as resilient but Grimgor is going to win them active combat res. I’d have been tempted to buy Standard of Discipline for Ld 10 and protect the BSB more. I still think he could do with a Troll block.

Your wider deployment and pincer movement looked eminently sensible. Your opponent needed the Artillery to do better vs the Monsters, I feel shooting at the Saurus was a definite error. The magic sounds uncomfortable but again it didn’t seem to really impact the Stegadons. I’m always slightly suspicious of splitting up the Infantry but Hand of Gork did seem to work here. Were the Black Orcs unlucky or were they always struggling in that initial combat? You always seemed to have an extra unit or two that could tip the fighting in your favour.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:07 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
We’ve discussed your list pretty much before I guess CR? Obviously you’ve got the Monsters which are good against Infantry and your magic defence is solid against big spells. Your Infantry block is pretty good with those characters.


We have indeed. I don't really like the small unit of Saurus Warriors, it just seems a bit out of place, my plan is to replace it with Skink Skirmishers and also increase the Bunker size a little bit. I also want to drop the Troglodon and mount the BSB on a Carnosaur. All that takes painting, though, and I'm still taking a break from Warhammer with some historicals right now!

SpellArcher wrote:
Your foe has some Artillery which is a concern and good magic, plus some floating Impact Hits and such. The Savage Orcs are good. Black Orcs aren’t as resilient but Grimgor is going to win them active combat res. I’d have been tempted to buy Standard of Discipline for Ld 10 and protect the BSB more. I still think he could do with a Troll block.


I agree, his list seemed pretty well rounded on the whole. I recommended swapping the shields for AHW on the Savages to make them hit even harder. I was surprised he'd gone with Razor Banner on the BSB, I think the BSB could have used a bit more protection of some kind, he was easy to snipe out. The one real weak point I thought was the two small Goblin units, I think they would have been better combined.

SpellArcher wrote:
Your wider deployment and pincer movement looked eminently sensible. Your opponent needed the Artillery to do better vs the Monsters, I feel shooting at the Saurus was a definite error. The magic sounds uncomfortable but again it didn’t seem to really impact the Stegadons. I’m always slightly suspicious of splitting up the Infantry but Hand of Gork did seem to work here. Were the Black Orcs unlucky or were they always struggling in that initial combat? You always seemed to have an extra unit or two that could tip the fighting in your favour.


The magic was annoying, but fortunately he didn't have some of the meanest Little Waagh spells and the magic also heavily focused on buffing the Savage Orcs which I tried for the most part to avoid until the end. My opponent's war machine targeting was a bit off, the Spear Chukkas tried to go for the Stegadons but were not accurate enough most of the time. The Black Orcs were slightly unlucky. Two Scar-Veterans and a bunch of Saurus seemed like they would always cause them problems once I really understood their stat lines, but I did also roll up I think 6 impact hit (5+1) and 5 thunderstomps, so that was what really turned the combat and caused them major issues. I think the unit was a bit small overall, maybe 40 would have been better to keep the ranks up a bit and get more attacks, or fielded deeper to keep steadfast and provide static res while Grimgor does the killing. They were also a bit hurt by the Skinks stripping a rank off prior to the main engagement.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
my plan is to replace it with Skink Skirmishers and also increase the Bunker size a little bit.

Makes a lot of sense.

CaledorRises wrote:
I was surprised he'd gone with Razor Banner

I made a comparable mistake in my list and regretted it.

CaledorRises wrote:
I agree, his list seemed pretty well rounded on the whole.

It wasn’t awful but in hindsight it has issues I think. Grimgor is very tempting because he’s an A-list Lord and O&G miss that. But he necessitates that Black Orc block when an O&G list already has to take a big block of Core orcs, pretty much. Double Infantry block is slow and lots of things are good at killing Infantry. The key is to bring strong artillery IMHO. Your opponent had a useful shooting phase but not a powerful enough one.

CaledorRises wrote:
My opponent's war machine targeting was a bit off, the Spear Chukkas tried to go for the Stegadons but were not accurate enough most of the time.

I think much of the loss can be blamed on not dealing with the Stegadons.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:12 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It wasn’t awful but in hindsight it has issues I think. Grimgor is very tempting because he’s an A-list Lord and O&G miss that. But he necessitates that Black Orc block when an O&G list already has to take a big block of Core orcs, pretty much. Double Infantry block is slow and lots of things are good at killing Infantry. The key is to bring strong artillery IMHO. Your opponent had a useful shooting phase but not a powerful enough one.


Double Infantry I think can work, but yeah it needs a bit better support. I think the Pump Wagon and the Chariot could be dropped to increase the shooting power, both of those units are interesting and can be fun, but I don't think they necessarily are required or that they add a huge amount to the list. A second Rock Lobba would be good. Increased Chaff I think could help to, to prevent me from concentrating my forces against a single block at a time.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:25 pm 
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It’s hard to see past this classic Rare selection. 2 Doom Divers, 2 Rock Lobbers and 2 Manglers. The latter not only do damage, they also inhibit the enemy greatly I’m discovering.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:01 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It’s hard to see past this classic Rare selection. 2 Doom Divers, 2 Rock Lobbers and 2 Manglers. The latter not only do damage, they also inhibit the enemy greatly I’m discovering.


Definitely, that's a very effective Rare group. The Manglers I know are very deadly and people usually avoid them with great fear. I've seen some people bring units like 5 Shadow Warriors just to send them into a Mangler to take it out. Their one weakness is that they are pretty easy to shoot to death.

All that said, I love the Arachnarok model so much I'm not sure I could ever play a game without one if I ever actually build the O&G army I want to.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:30 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
All that said, I love the Arachnarok model so much I'm not sure I could ever play a game without one if I ever actually build the O&G army I want to.

:)

What else would you have CR?

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:38 am 
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CaledorRises wrote:
I've seen some people bring units like 5 Shadow Warriors just to send them into a Mangler to take it out.

Eagles are also pretty effective for stepping on them. And with the flying move they give a big area to avoid for the Manglers.

SpellArcher wrote:
CaledorRises wrote:
All that said, I love the Arachnarok model so much I'm not sure I could ever play a game without one if I ever actually build the O&G army I want to.

:)

What else would you have CR?

If I ever would put together an O&G army I would probably end up going for a lot of the wackky stuff they have. I think the pumpwagons are a must take in that case. At least one but probably 2 (they feel like one of those things that work better if you bring a couple). Definitely also at least one Mangler. And an Aragnarok of course. It's probably the worst use of the rare points. But at least it would look epic ;)

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
What else would you have CR?

If I ever would put together an O&G army I would probably end up going for a lot of the wackky stuff they have. I think the pumpwagons are a must take in that case. At least one but probably 2 (they feel like one of those things that work better if you bring a couple). Definitely also at least one Mangler. And an Aragnarok of course. It's probably the worst use of the rare points. But at least it would look epic ;)


Definitely agree on the Pump Wagons. I'd love to field 4 of them just for the hilarity. I generally like Goblin lists, and I wanted to do a Forest Goblin/Night Goblin combo army. Squigs, Squig Hoppers, Forest Goblin Spider Riders, hordes of Goblins in core, and then large blocks of Trolls and/or River Trolls. I also wrote one list version that had 2 Arachnarok Spiders, but think it would be even more fun to run 3, 2 in rare and one with a Shaman on it, just for the cool factor. I'd also like to run a Wyvern. Most of my ideas weren't very competitive based, but did seem fun to play. Unfortunately GW has decimated the range of Greenskins available anymore, so I'm not sure how viable the armies are.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:24 am 
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I've also looked at goblin lists. Their main issues are low LD, taking up a lot of space (meaning it's hard to fit everything in general / BSB range which you want) and high S attacks. If you can mittigate those then you can build a pretty decent list (though probably not tournament winning level strength). It's worth considering an Orc general, the +1 LD banner, and you definitely want some high S attacks in there in the form of trolls, arachnarocks and so on. Also, squigs in various forms are decent with immune to psychology.

Of course, another thing with a goblin list (at least for me as a HE player) is the sheer number of models you have. You can take a unit of goblins with more models in it then I have in my entire army. Which is a pretty daunting prospect assembling / painting wise... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:43 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Unfortunately GW has decimated the range of Greenskins available anymore, so I'm not sure how viable the armies are.

I was set to buy several artillery pieces but those were discontinued a few months ago. It’ll be eBay now.

Prince of Spires wrote:
If you can mittigate those then you can build a pretty decent list (though probably not tournament winning level strength).

A mostly goblin list won SCGT a few years ago, it was a surprise though.

EDIT: It was a different tournament, my mistake. The player, Andi Avery, did win SCGT with O&G though. Here’s the list:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/orcgobl ... #p22045836

Orc Warboss (General) talisman of preservation, shield
Goblin great shaman, level 4, dispel scroll
Wuzzag

Black orc big boss, shield, glittering scales, ironcurse icon
Goblin big boss,BSB, ha/shield, spider banner
Goblin big boss, wolf, shrieking blade, la, enchanted shield

5 wolf riders, shields, banner
95 night gobbos, bows, 3 fanatics, netters, fc
15 orc big uns, shields, musician, banner, std of discipline

8 trolls
1 troll

2 x DD
2 x RL
2 x Mangler

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:37 am 
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Interesting list. It looks like a list where if you know what you're doing and are very familiar with it you will do well. But otherwise you'll probably fail miserably.

He did indeed manage to mitigate a lot of the gobbo weaknesses. The LD 10 general and BSB help a lot. The trolls, DD and maglers then are big damage dealers.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:14 pm 
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That Goblin horde is absolutely massive! Although the largest I've ever heard of was a unit of 200 Goblins. The guy did it just because he wanted to. The picture is truly impressive.

I do agree that the leadership problem is quite substantial. The Goblins themselves have very poor leadership and then the Trolls that are useful for providing the heavy attacks also have bad leadership. I've certainly seen Goblins lists fall apart due to leadership. I haven't planned out a list too closely since I'm still trying to get my Dark Elves and Vampire Counts purchased before moving on to yet another army, but the leadership problem will probably be the biggest issue.

As for painting I'm a bit less concerned because the Night Goblin models are least are extremely simple. They aren't nearly as intricate as the High Elves so hopefully they'd paint up much more quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:35 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
I do agree that the leadership problem is quite substantial. The Goblins themselves have very poor leadership and then the Trolls that are useful for providing the heavy attacks also have bad leadership. I've certainly seen Goblins lists fall apart due to leadership. I haven't planned out a list too closely since I'm still trying to get my Dark Elves and Vampire Counts purchased before moving on to yet another army, but the leadership problem will probably be the biggest issue.

Ld 8 Warboss plus Standard of Discipline BSB for Ld 9 springs to mind but it’d probably require protecting a bunker. I’ve fought that before and it worked OK for the guy.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Interesting list.

It’s very clever. He’s got the pick of both Lores, a Scroll and Wurzzag’s extra tricks. With Spider Banner he’s got 95 Poisoned shots. Even the little touches like the solo Troll, a better redirector than my Snotlings because of the M6. Or the Wolf Boss who can have a go at Ethereals.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:19 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Ld 8 Warboss plus Standard of Discipline BSB for Ld 9 springs to mind but it’d probably require protecting a bunker. I’ve fought that before and it worked OK for the guy.

There is definitely ways around it. The standard of discipline is a must for such a list I think (and it always reminds me how easy elves have it where you can just put that banner on a unit BSB). But it is something you must actively plan for. With high LD armies like elves it's usually more an afterthought.
SpellArcher wrote:
It’s very clever. He’s got the pick of both Lores, a Scroll and Wurzzag’s extra tricks. With Spider Banner he’s got 95 Poisoned shots. Even the little touches like the solo Troll, a better redirector than my Snotlings because of the M6. Or the Wolf Boss who can have a go at Ethereals.

I agree, it's a very optimised list if you know what you're doing. If not however, I think you'll end up getting beaten a lot if you aren't very familiar with the list. It's not a simple point and click list. The troll is a prime example of this. He's better then the snotlings, but with stupidity and LD 4 you need to know what you're doing. Otherwise you'll find him aimlessly wandering about the battlefield for a lot of the battle. The snotlings are worse (lower M, S and T) but you can at least get them where you need to without worry.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
With high LD armies like elves it's usually more an afterthought.

Agreed.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The snotlings are worse (lower M, S and T) but you can at least get them where you need to without worry.

Having painted four Snotling bases I figured out two basic ways to use them. Firstly as one unit on a flank to slow the enemy down. Unbreakable is great for that. It’s a little defeatist though and the danger is they go down in your turn, so the enemy can Reform and then charge in his. On a flank that’s probably a fast enemy unit too. The other way is 2x2 as redirectors. They probably need to be in the centre because of the M4. The issue I’ve found in play is they can only move 8” and often you need 12” clear behind them so the enemy can’t Overrun into something.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The troll is a prime example of this. He's better then the snotlings, but with stupidity and LD 4 you need to know what you're doing. Otherwise you'll find him aimlessly wandering about the battlefield for a lot of the battle.

I learned very quickly that Trolls need to stay within 12” of the General most of the time. This is generally true of the solo Troll but he can start up to 12” away and end up 24 for example when redirecting because all you need him to do then is stand there. M6 is really helpful, as is the small footprint and solo model pivot.

Of course quite a few players don’t fully understand how to use redirectors, it’s true. What I don’t fully understand is how to position the huge Goblin unit relative to the bunker and the Trolls. Seeing this list deployed well would be very instructive.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:20 am 
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M4 is indeed quite a handicap for a redirector. Which is why HE agles and reavers are far superior to them.
SpellArcher wrote:
I learned very quickly that Trolls need to stay within 12” of the General most of the time.

I think most of the skill isn't so much when starting out. But rather after a couple of turns. After all, the battle plan usually doesn't survive the first contact with the enemy. If you can deliver the troll where it needs to be T3 or 4 then you've got the use of him down.

As for deployment, I would guess the bunker either goes centrally in the line, with the gobbos and big troll unit on either side (solo troll then positions right next to the bunker). And the rest then "scatters" around them as needed. Or the bunker "hides" behind the gobbos for a more compact battle line. I think those are the options you have given the LD requirements of the list. There is some variations on this theme of course, but those are mainly where on the table you deploy. You could refuse a flank or go centrally. You could line up the bunker against the toughest unit on the table or as far away from it as possible. That sort of thing.

Of course, this is mainly just a guess based on the list without having played with or against it. But with the units that need to be within 12'' your choices are limited.

Redirectors are interesting. They're probably one of the most important and universal tools for controlling a battle a WH player has. Just look at the multi-page thread we have floating somewhere on how to use eagles. And somehow a lot of people never think of them or use them correctly.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Game 14: High Elves vs Orcs and Goblins

I managed to get two new games in last weekend! Unfortunately as the store was only open for 5 hours and we wanted to play twice I couldn't take detailed notes so these will be more similar to my tournament reports, but they're still games! We agreed to play the games based on the Triple Crown comp system, I brought a -4 list, the same one from Worcester, and my opponent brought a -5 list.

High Elves:
Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Star Lance, The Other Trickster's Shard, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Dragon Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade
Mage Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Mage Level 2
12x Silver Helms FC w/ Shields
22x Archers w/ Musician, Standard Bearer
5x Ellyrian Reavers
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of the World Dragon
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix

Orcs and Goblins:
Orc Warboss mounted on War Boar w/ Great Weapon, Armor of Destiny, The Other Trickster's Shard, maybe other stuff
Savage Orc Shaman Level 4 w/ Lucky Shrunken Head, maybe other stuff
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Goblin Big Boss mounted on Giant Wolf w/ stuff
Goblin Big Boss BSB w/ Banner of the Spider God
3x Goblin Wolf Chariots
Wyvern
6x Forest Goblin Spider Riders w/ Bows
10x Trolls
48ish Savage Orc War Boy Big Uns w/ Bows
Rock Lobba
Rock Lobba
Doom Diver
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Troll

Magic:
Mage: Fiery Convocation, Walk Between Worlds
Mage: Hand of Glory, Apotheosis

Savage Orc Great Shaman: Foot of Gork, Headbutt, Brain Busta, Fists of Gork
Night Goblin Shaman: Honestly haven't got the faintest, he didn't do much

Deployment:
I decided to go for a weighted left flank, partially because there was a large building I thought I could use to shield myself from the warmachines. The Reavers screened my left, the Silver Helms held my center with the Archers on their right and the Dragon Princes to the right of that able to head left or to the center depending on what was required. One Frostheart was on my left and the other on my right with the Star Dragon in the middle of my line behind the Archers. My opponent decided to Castle his right with the Savage Orcs on the edge of the board with both Shamans and the BSB. The Trolls were on their left with the Warboss. The single Troll was between the big Troll block and the Savage Orcs. The Spiders were dead center of the board. The Doom Diver and both Rock Lobbas were castled on the right, the three Spear Chukkas were lined along the back of the board away from the castle. The Chariots supported these bolt throwers and the Wyvern was on the far Orc left with the individual Goblin hero. The Spiders vanguarded backwards a bit while the Goblin Cowboy moved behind the building. The Reavers pushed forwards.

Image
Image

Initial Thoughts:
We went with opposite deployments, which could hurt me. I have a very fast list and I can easily sweep the entire Greenskin left, but I will have to endure a lot of turns of shooting before I reach the Castle. My success will depend on how intact I am when I reach the Castle, I'm hoping that I can avoid the Savage Orc arrow storm for a while. I think the Trolls are the easier block to engage, so I'll try to engage them and probably just try to stay out of combat with the Savage Orcs, unless I can hammer them with some Convocation before then.

High Elves Turn 1:
The Star Dragon and one Frostheart moved up the right aggressively, unconcerned about the Wyvern. The other Frostheart pushed forwards a lot while the cavalry moved forwards as well, but a bit hesitantly. The Archers moved up as well before Walk Between Worlds shunted the Archers even farther forwards and Hand of Glory boosted them. Despite this they only plinked a single wound off a Bolt Thrower.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 1:
The Goblin Cowboy annoyingly charged the Reavers. The Wyvern flew past the scary monsters to threaten the rear of my cavalry. The Savage Orcs and Trolls both turned to face my lines and the Spiders continued to retreat. Shooting and magic didn't do anything of significance. In combat the Reavers held at a loss of 1 and turned to face.

Image

High Elves Turn 2:
The Air Cav moved up to flank the Greenskin line, one Phoenix charging and killing the Bolt Thrower on the far flank. The Silver Helms pushed forwards a bit as did the Dragon Princes. The Archers turned on the spot and with the aid of Walk Between Worlds moved up to shoot the Wyvern and receive a front charge. The Reavers performed horribly and lost 2 for no wounds.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 2:
The Spiders moved up a bit, the Goblin Chariots charged the Reavers in the flank hoping to overrun into the Silver Helms as the individual Troll charged the Reavers as well. The Savage Orc Horde failed Animosity and sat around. The Trolls wheeled more to face the incoming beasties. The Wyvern charged the Archers and in a cruel twist of fate, lost combat and was run down. The Reavers were annihilated in the impact hits, but the Goblin Cowboy prevented the Chariots from overruning into the Helms, who instead beat the Troll and ran it down.

Image

High Elves Turn 3:
Things got a bit confusing. The Dragon Princes charged the Goblin Chariots who fled, but they were caught and destroyed. The Silver Helms charged the Spider Riders who fled then redirected into the farthest Spear Chukka, destroying it and overruning off the board. One Frostheart then killed off the Spider Riders while the other charged and killed the last Spear Chukka. The Archers turned around. Walk Between Worlds allowed the Dragon Princes to wheel to face the Greenskin lines and Hand of Glory boosted the Star Dragon's movement by a single inch.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 3:
The Savage Orcs failed animosity again so the line held position, the Trolls may have shifted a bit. Shooting and magic again failed to make much of an impact on the monsters.

High Elves Turn 4:
One Frostheart charged the Trolls to hold them up for a bit as the Silver Helms arrived on the field. The Dragon Princes moved up with the Star Dragon to charge next turn. The other Frostheart prepared to destroy the remaining warmachines. The Archers tried to get relevant. The Frostheart caused one or two wounds and combat was stuck.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 4:
The Savage Orcs finally got their act together and turned to begin pouring arrows into something. Magic assassinated the Prince with a lucky Headbutt roll. The Trolls beat the Frostheart in combat and ran it down, pursuing into the Silver Helms.

Image

High Elves Turn 5:
The Dragon Princes and Star Dragon joined the fight against the Trolls while the Archers still marched across the field. The remaining Frostheart killed the Doom Diver and overran to a Rock Lobba. The fight against the Trolls killed two of them while the cavalry forces were decimated, combat was won, but only slightly.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 5:
The Savage Orcs moved forwards and shot off a rank and a half of Archers. In combat the Frostheart killed the Rock Lobba and overran into the last one. The Silver Helms were wiped out, the BSB challenged out the Warboss but only caused 2 wounds and was killed in return (darn non-magical Great Weapon). The Dragon Princes broke from combat but fortunately the Star Dragon stayed engaged.

Image

High Elves Turn 6:
The Dragon Princes rallied, the Frostheart killed the Rock Lobba, the Archers shot off the Goblin Cowboy, and the Star Dragon continued the grind.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 6:
Nothing significant, the Star Dragon combat continued, a few Archers died.


11-9 Greenskin Victory

Thoughts:
It was going really really well, then it fell apart. I was also very surprised at how few points I scored, I destroyed a massive number of Greenskin units and models, but they were all very cheap. The Greenskin artillery was woefully inaccurate, it hardly did anything, my Star Dragon was uninjured, one Frostheart lost two wounds, and the other Frostheart was only killed by being run down in combat. The Greenskin magic was also not very strong, though that was partially due to my opponent consistently rolling low with his 6-dice Foot of Gork attempts meaning I was always able to dispel them. The first time he managed to get it through he hit the Dragon Princes with it only for me to reveal the BotWD, which prevented any casualties. I think my big mistake was the Turn 4 charges. I should have sent more than a solitary Frostheart into the Trolls, I should have sent the Dragon Princes and both Frosthearts in. The Star Dragon was too far for a likely charge to make it in, but could have joined the next turn. I severely underestimated the Trolls in combat, particularly the vomit attack which was absolutely devastating to my heavy cavalry. I think if I had concentrated my forces better at Turn 4 I could have had a fairly significant victory. I also misjudged the challenge against the Orc Warboss with my BSB, I had believed the Warboss to be a tag-along character to provide leadership, I didn't realize the Warboss was actually the General and was well built for combat. Losing the BSB is what tipped the game from a draw to a narrow Greenskin victory.

We then shifted the terrain and set up for a second game! I kept the same list while the Savage Orcs dropped their Bows and swapped to Additional Hand Weapons.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:06 am 
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Game 15: High Elves vs Orcs and Goblins

Second round! The Greenskin list changed by swapping bows for AHW, I kept the same list because I'm boring.

High Elves:
Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Star Lance, The Other Trickster's Shard, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Dragon Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade
Mage Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Mage Level 2
12x Silver Helms FC w/ Shields
22x Archers w/ Musician, Standard Bearer
5x Ellyrian Reavers
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of the World Dragon
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix

Orcs and Goblins:
Orc Warboss mounted on War Boar w/ Great Weapon, Armor of Destiny, The Other Trickster's Shard, maybe other stuff
Savage Orc Shaman Level 4 w/ Lucky Shrunken Head, maybe other stuff
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Goblin Big Boss mounted on Giant Wolf w/ stuff
Goblin Big Boss BSB w/ Banner of the Spider God
3x Goblin Wolf Chariots
Wyvern
6x Forest Goblin Spider Riders w/ Bows
10x Trolls
48ish Savage Orc War Boy Big Uns w/ AHW
Rock Lobba
Rock Lobba
Doom Diver
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Troll

Magic:
Mage: Walk Between Worlds, Tempest
Mage: Arcane Unforging, Apotheosis

Savage Orc Great Shaman: Foot of Gork, Ere We Go, Brain Busta, Headbutt
Night Goblin Shaman: I know they were the same spells as last time, but I don't know what he had last time :lol:

Deployment:
Again the Silver Helms took the center with the Dragon Princes directly on their right. The Archers were on their left with both Frosthearts. The Reavers held my far left flank hoping to circle around and kill some warmachines, the Star Dragon was also on my left. The Wyvern opposed the Reavers and Star Dragon with the Spiders next to it. The Troll block and the individual Troll were opposite the Archers with the Orc center held by the Wolf Chariots. The Savage Orcs were on the Orc left-center, while the flank of the line was held by the Goblin Cowboy and all three bolt throwers. The Doom Diver and Rock Lobbas held the back of the board well spread out to prevent the cascading overruns. The Cowboy vanguarded forwards to flank my line and the Spiders wheeled a bit to counter the advancing Reavers.

Image
Image

Initial Thoughts:
The Troll block now terrifies me. Possibly more than it should. The artillery I'm a bit less concerned about considering its lackluster performance last game. My plan is to destroy the Savage Orcs, my monsters with thunderstomps should have a field day against them and they are a much better target for my cavalry. The Star Dragon will try to flank around quickly to get behind the Greenskin line as the Reavers try to destroy the artillery. I've never used Tempest as a spell so I thought I'd go for it, the debuff and the large template I thought could help against the Savage Orcs.

High Elves Turn 1:
The cavalry pushed forwards a bit staying out of danger of Turn 1 charges. The Frosthearts redeployed to the right flank to engage the Savage Orcs. The Archers advanced and injured a Goblin Chariot with some shooting. The Star Dragon aggressively pushed forward, daring the Wyvern to try it. The Reavers moved out of the Wyvern charge arc. Magic cast Tempest on the Savage Orcs and it promptly scattered 6" off of them completely, ending that fun little experiment.

Image
Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 1:
The Trolls decided to force the issue in the center and the Savage Orcs shuffled forwards. The Spiders failed Animosity and couldn't charge the Reavers. The Wyvern remained a coward and didn't charge the Star Dragon. Magic drew the scroll on Foot of Gork.

Image
Image

High Elves Turn 2:
The Reavers skirted the board edge, unable to reach the Rock Lobba yet. The Star Dragon moved into a mostly dead zone between the two Rock Lobbas. One Frostheart pushed up to charge the Spear Chukkas next turn. The Archers shifted sideways and realized the their imminent death but bravely killed a Wolf Chariot. Magic was ironic in casting Arcane Unforging on the Warboss, I rolled an extremely high casting value meaning my opponent decided to let it through. It of course failed to destroy a magic item. I also had wanted my opponent to dispel Unforging because now Walk Between World which could have saved the Archers was dispelled. In a decisive moment my opponent had misjudged the placement of the Savage Orcs and one Frostheart and both cavalry units slammed into them, killing the BSB and about 15ish Savage Orcs. They held on Steadfast for this turn, though.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 2:
The Wolf Chariots hit the Silver Helms in the flank, the Wyvern, single Troll, and Goblin Cowboy charged the Archers. The Trolls reformed to face the main combat. One Spear Chukka blew itself up and shooting plinked a few wounds off a Frostheart and a few Reavers. In combat the Archers were all destroyed. The Wolf Chariots then failed to kill any Silver Helms with impact hits after some stellar armor saves. The Savage Orcs proceeded to lose another rank of Orcs, but passed their Snake Eyes break test! The Wolf Chariots ran, though.

Image
Image

High Elves Turn 3:
The Reavers charged and killed the Rock Lobba. The unengaged Frosty charged and killed the Spear Chukka to its front. The Star Dragon joined the fight against the Savage Orcs and they broke from combat, the Shaman being killed as well. The Silver Helms reformed to redirect the Trolls away as the Dragon Princes and Star Dragon failed to catch the 12" flee. The Frostheart also reformed to engage the Trolls.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 3:
The individual Troll stumbled away never to return. The Wyvern and Trolls charged and wiped out the Silver Helms. The Spider Riders killed the Reavers. The Wolf Chariots rallied, the Savage Orcs didn't. Shooting further injured the Frostheart that had been in combat.

Image

High Elves Turn 4:
The game now turned into an interesting version of Chess. My fear of the Trolls led me to believe I could not beat them in combat with what I had, so I decided to try to avoid them while killing the rest of the Greenskins. To this end the Frostheart killed the Doom Diver, the Dragon Princes charged the Savage Orcs forcing them off the board, and the other Frostheart and the Star Dragon redeployed.

Image

Orcs and Goblins Turn 4:
The Wyvern moved to intercept the injured Frostheart, the Trolls reformed to face the Dragon Princes. Other stuff shifted a bit. Shooting took the injured Frostheart down to one wound. The pictures have ended because the store owners were giving us angry looks and telling us we need to start packing up now.

High Elves Turn 5:
The Dragon Princes wheel to try to avoid the Trolls but only get an average charge range away. The Star Dragon manages to only kill 2 Spiders with the breath weapon so they stick around.

Orcs and Goblins Turn 5:
The Trolls make their charge and destroy the Dragon Princes.


We didn't total up the points here, but I think it was a 10-10 draw, possibly and 11-9 Elf victory, either way it was very close!

Thoughts:
I think I made two big mistakes here. Firstly, the Dragon Princes shouldn't have charged the Savage Orcs on Turn 4, they had a Snake Eyes rally and were likely to flee the board anyways. An extra turn of movement to avoid the Trolls would have saved the Princes and would have given me a clear victory. My second mistake was residual from Game 14. I definitely feared the Trolls more than I should have, I think if both Phoenixes and the Star Dragon had gone after the Trolls I could have beaten them, the Trolls were very dangerous against an individual Frostheart and against cavalry, but I think the Dragon and both Frosthearts would have been too much for them to handle. My opponent misjudging the position of the Savage Orcs was also very big this game, letting me get the combo charge off, but credit where its due, my opponent played very well after that, managing to bring it back to a draw. Another mistake of mine, though less significant, was that once the Archers were doomed to death I should have fled the Mages out of the unit immediately to conserve magical power. Fortunately for me the Greenskin mages died shortly after so it didn't leave me defenseless against powerful Shamans, but it was still a mistake.


Two very fun games, and extremely close!


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:09 pm 
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The O&G list looks pretty solid CR. It’s got most of the elements you need, though I think Manglers might have come in handy here. I’m also slightly suspicious of the Goblin characters on the ends of the Savage Orcs though that wasn’t an issue in Game 1. A bit surprised to see an unridden Wyvern, not normally an option. I really like the High Elf spells here.

I get the idea of using the building for cover but I kind of agree that the Monsters took perhaps too long to get into the Trolls. The O&G shooting didn’t do much indeed. Turn 4 seemed quite unlucky (Frosthearts within BSB range rarely break) but I see what you mean about your units not coordinating properly. 10 Trolls plus a Lord is solid and requires a serious assault. Most of the points were there and in the Savage Orcs, so I guess you needed to take one or both of those units down to win.

Your opponent’s deployment in Game 1 looked quite sharp and smacked of experience. So I was surprised to see a somewhat looser set-up in Game 2. The Star Dragon basically roamed free. Strong though Savage Orcs are, it’s usual to lean on the Trolls (as in Game 1) and screen them with Impact Hits. Here you were able to get into them very quickly and see them off. The Dragon should be able to deal with that Troll unit on his own. If you Challenge I don’t think the Lord can refuse because of his irregular base size, then you eat him and force a Ld 4 Break test. Even if he can refuse, you just open up with the Breath Weapon and they’re still testing on a 4 because the General’s Ld can’t be used (BRB pg 102). Good point about running the characters out, rustiness caused me to forget that at Worcester!

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:21 am 
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CaledorRises wrote:
The Spiders vanguarded backwards a bit

This felt very "gobliny" to me. ;) Most people vanguard forward... Though I agree that here it was probably a good move. I'm actually not a big fan of the O&G deployment game 1. I agree that it keeps the savage orcs out of harms way and lets them support the troll unit. But with the speed (and flying moves) of the HE list you're basically giving up the shooting element of the list and hoping the HE player is not fast enough to get multiple units into the trolls at once. I actually think that the best move T4 was to move up and form a battle line so you could go into the troll unit with more heavy hitters. He couldn't have done much against that except for pray for some lucky shooting. Of course, getting the SH out of trouble would have been more difficult. Though moving away from the trolls and a flee from the charge would have probably worked and would have left the trolls stranded a bit further out.

I agree wth SA assessment of game 2. The general indeed had to accept the challenge because he can't hide. BRB P98: when footprints collide the character has to be "besides the front rank on the side of the unit". So he can't move back. Also, as you said yourself, ganging up on the Troll unit would have probably worked.

SpellArcher wrote:
Good point about running the characters out, rustiness caused me to forget that at Worcester!

Good point. It's one of those things that comes with experience. These kind of things easily get forgotten in the heat of battle.

All in all, 2 great games. Thanks for writing them up.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:33 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
A bit surprised to see an unridden Wyvern, not normally an option. I really like the High Elf spells here.


The Wyvern was from I think Storm of Magic, allowed under the Triple Crown pack. I think Fiery Convocation could have been very helpful, but I was only in range of the Savage Orcs one turn and it was scrolled.

SpellArcher wrote:
(Frosthearts within BSB range rarely break)


It wasn't in BSB range! I lost combat by 1 and due to the death of the General the 9 that I rolled lost combat. The BSB was accidentally about an inch out of range.

SpellArcher wrote:
Your opponent’s deployment in Game 1 looked quite sharp and smacked of experience. So I was surprised to see a somewhat looser set-up in Game 2. The Star Dragon basically roamed free.


Prince of Spires wrote:
I'm actually not a big fan of the O&G deployment game 1. I agree that it keeps the savage orcs out of harms way and lets them support the troll unit. But with the speed (and flying moves) of the HE list you're basically giving up the shooting element of the list and hoping the HE player is not fast enough to get multiple units into the trolls at once.


I thought the Turn 1 deployment was harder to attack and a better defense against the flier assault, but it was a very defensive deployment.

SpellArcher wrote:
The Dragon should be able to deal with that Troll unit on his own. If you Challenge I don’t think the Lord can refuse because of his irregular base size, then you eat him and force a Ld 4 Break test. Even if he can refuse, you just open up with the Breath Weapon and they’re still testing on a 4 because the General’s Ld can’t be used (BRB pg 102). Good point about running the characters out, rustiness caused me to forget that at Worcester!


Prince of Spires wrote:
The general indeed had to accept the challenge because he can't hide. BRB P98: when footprints collide the character has to be "besides the front rank on the side of the unit". So he can't move back. Also, as you said yourself, ganging up on the Troll unit would have probably worked.


That's interesting, we had assumed that the General could go to the back. In fact at the end of Game 2 the general refused a challenge by the BSB as he was on two wounds and could possibly die from it.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I actually think that the best move T4 was to move up and form a battle line so you could go into the troll unit with more heavy hitters. He couldn't have done much against that except for pray for some lucky shooting. Of course, getting the SH out of trouble would have been more difficult. Though moving away from the trolls and a flee from the charge would have probably worked and would have left the trolls stranded a bit further out.


The Silver Helms would have been in a very strange position since you can't march, if he didn't charge them and have me flee then it could have blocked the Dragon Princes from getting in. Not necessarily a problem, but could be an issue.


Prince of Spires wrote:
All in all, 2 great games. Thanks for writing them up.


I've got two games scheduled this coming weekend against Dwarves! One against a fluffy list that I'll be trying to bring a fluffy Caledor list to, and then a second game against the Dwarf army that took 3rd Place at Triple Crown this year. That one will be a very challenging game!


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:13 am 
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CaledorRises wrote:
The Silver Helms would have been in a very strange position since you can't march, if he didn't charge them and have me flee then it could have blocked the Dragon Princes from getting in. Not necessarily a problem, but could be an issue.

Good point. You would of course need to force the issue, also to make sure the savage orcs don't have enough time to get in on the action on their terms.

Perhaps the best option then was to point the Silver Helms towards the Trolls to threaten a charge with most of your army the next turn. But to angle them in such a way that an overrun would take the trolls off the board. This leaves the trolls with the option to either stay in place and get 2 full strength cavalry units and 3 monsters in the face or to charge the SH unit and either overrun off the board, which lets you deal with the savage orcs or reform and take the charge from the DP's and monsters the next turn.

In this situation the worst outcome perhaps would be if the SH would hold from the troll charge because that would leave too little room for the rest of the units to charge.
CaledorRises wrote:
I've got two games scheduled this coming weekend against Dwarves! One against a fluffy list that I'll be trying to bring a fluffy Caledor list to

Bring the cloak of beards for the fluffy one. Come on, you know you want to ;)

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:44 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
It wasn't in BSB range! I lost combat by 1 and due to the death of the General the 9 that I rolled lost combat. The BSB was accidentally about an inch out of range.

:(

CaledorRises wrote:
game against the Dwarf army that took 3rd Place at Triple Crown this year.

If your opponent brings enough cannon and deploys well you might be at the mercy of the dice here CR.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Good point. You would of course need to force the issue, also to make sure the savage orcs don't have enough time to get in on the action on their terms.

Perhaps the best option then was to point the Silver Helms towards the Trolls to threaten a charge with most of your army the next turn. But to angle them in such a way that an overrun would take the trolls off the board. This leaves the trolls with the option to either stay in place and get 2 full strength cavalry units and 3 monsters in the face or to charge the SH unit and either overrun off the board, which lets you deal with the savage orcs or reform and take the charge from the DP's and monsters the next turn.

In this situation the worst outcome perhaps would be if the SH would hold from the troll charge because that would leave too little room for the rest of the units to charge.


I think my biggest issue was that I was too concerned with keeping the Silver Helms alive. Your suggestion of using them as bait would have been a very good idea, it just didn't occur to me because I was purely invested in how to keep them in the game.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Bring the cloak of beards for the fluffy one. Come on, you know you want to ;)


Ah, I would love to! However, my opponent's fluffy list is for a narrative event in October and therefore is designed as an all-comers list. Bringing the Cloak of Beards would be tailoring my list to fight Dwarves since I never bring it in all-comers games, and I'm not a big fan of list tailoring unless both players do it.

SpellArcher wrote:
If your opponent brings enough cannon and deploys well you might be at the mercy of the dice here CR.


The list is actually a very fascinating one. A contributing factor to placing so well at Triple Crown is that it was a +3 list. So he's got no duplicate warmachines as those are all penalties. He has 1 Organ Gun, 1 Cannon, and 1 Grudge Thrower. The list is designed around the Banner of 12" Stubborn and he's also got a unit of I think 20 Irondrakes with the Slowness Rune.


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