Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:49 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:14 am 
Offline
Pendragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:52 am
Posts: 1674
Location: Cold, miserable and expensive Finland
We all know and love/hate Warhammer for The Grymdarque fantasy setting, but having delved once again into Tolkien, I can't help but compare the feeling of the two universes. Tolkien's work is not only better written and more complete, but also much more heroic and uplifting, and this got me thinking: what would the Warhammer universes look like if it was reimagined as a reconstruction of fantasy themes and tropes, rather than a deconstruction?

_________________
Prince Deral Lionbane, head of the House of Lionbane, Lord of Lionstone and Warden of Tor Charta

Luna, try not to beat them too hard. They are proud about their pseudo-glorious past and their present nothingness, you know.
-Elmoth, about Caledorians


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:13 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12728
Location: Otherworld
Good Guys win the End Times!

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:20 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7276
Location: The city of Spires
Tolkien, except for the hobbit / Lord of the Rings, isn't really uplifting though. The major theme that runs through the Silmarillion is that of slow but inevitable decay after first reaching great heights. It's about fighting unwinnable battles against insurmountable odds and betrayal. And it's about death and rebirth to grow again, just to a lower height.

It's a good question though. For one thing at least, the phrase "and none could stand before them" would stop appearing in all army books whenever there was some skirmish somewhere.

Other then that, it's a bit hard to say. For me WH is a collection of clichés pushed to their extreme. Like the Skaven infighting the O&G chaotic and warlike nature or the VC thinking about how evil they are. None of it makes sense if you think about what it takes to uphold a civilization long term. Something to do with needing food and reproducing and so on.

Though SA is correct, the good guys would win in the end.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:26 am
Posts: 123
Location: UK
Tolkien and Warhammer Fantasy were written in the UK at very different times. Warhammer became an antithesis to Tolkien in its way because it spawned in the depression and utter misery under Thatcher in the 70s and 80s. Tolkien wrote after two wars, one of which he fought in and his entire generation was virtually worn away, yet in the end there was hope of good triumphant. Thirty years on and most of the country wallowed under a class of rich helping the rich get richer while smashing the poor under their jackboots. Really it's no surprise that Warhammer was this grim setting where evil is everywhere. The good guys don't win because Chaos and misery seems ever strongest here. Everywhere you look you find cultists whispering to the masses and turning them against each other while corruption runs amok.


Where Warhammer falls down is a lack of good writing from multiple authors, but then that perhaps isn't the point. The idea is that you can write your own fluff and make your own choices, so for your army good can always triumph. Warhammer isn't meant to be complete, it's up to other people to change it. Tolkien has it's foibles as much as Warhammer does, I think that's part of the glamour.

_________________
One foot in the hobby


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:57 am 
Offline
Pendragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:52 am
Posts: 1674
Location: Cold, miserable and expensive Finland
Good points all, and I agree that looking at Tolkien's work as a long timeline, there is definitely that theme of decline where magic and fantastical elements ultimately give way to more common themes and things just seem lesser for it. However, there is always at least a bittersweet element to it, which sets it apart from a lot of other works in my opinion, and makes it so good and enduring.

Prior to the End Times, I think we all felt that the "impending doom" was rather ridiculous. The Dark Forces were always just on the verge of their ultimate triumph, the Skaven and the Orcs and Chaos were always each painted as being able to destroy the world on their own, if they could ever stop their infighting. The world never felt "alive", the story never advanced (until, of course, it did. And it was terrible). I understand that this was because it was, essentially, a shared universe where GW couldn't upset the status-quo too much and risk angering the players, but given that entire armies have been discontinued (Chaos Dwarves, Dogs of War), others have been established (Ogre Kingdoms) and some discontinued in all but name (Beastmen, Wood Elves, Bretonnia), I find this especially disappointing.

And that's another thing, it was always about destroying the world, which I found rather lame There was no "Sauron-esque" lawful evil option, really (Dark elves, maybe, but even that is debatable). This of course comes from Warhammer being a compilation of clichés built on top of a foundation of tropes meant to sell miniatures, but it still makes things seem less interesting the more I have thought about the world. Now, there's no actual "good" option either, which I found refreshing when I started out and still think is good, so points to GW there.

The ultimate "good guys win" is in my opinion as lame as the "bad guys win", but only when it is poorly written and caused by some sort of deus ex machina or a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. I still want to see the good guys survive (mostly, anyways) and the day be ultimately saved, even if it is at a great cost, but I want it to feel like a victory, not just delaying the inevitable. And this is what GW failed to ever do, every victory, no matter how resounding, was always waved aside by someone saying that "But ultimately Chaos can't be stopped".

Sorry, incoherent rant. Bad place to write, but had to put down some of my thoughts and frustrations so as to not lose them in the maelstrom of my mind at the moment :D

_________________
Prince Deral Lionbane, head of the House of Lionbane, Lord of Lionstone and Warden of Tor Charta

Luna, try not to beat them too hard. They are proud about their pseudo-glorious past and their present nothingness, you know.
-Elmoth, about Caledorians


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:26 am
Posts: 123
Location: UK
Yes, I think an advancement of the story would have been refreshing, I always hoped something would happen that would maybe change the climate of the world or something? Getting warmer and allowing jungle and desert to spread and allowing the Lizardmen and Tomb Kings to break out into the old world. You could have had new models based on that which would have added fun collectors ideas. I had always hoped they would add an Albion army after the Shadows campaign in 2001 but that never happened. What made Warhammer enjoyable was the constant crisis, that evil lurks in the shadows of the trees just outside the bastions of civilisation. Where the walls of the settlement seem like the most strong things and then either something sneaks in from within or brutal force destroys by conquest.

There was so much potential in Fantasy and yet all we were given was utter destruction and new 40k fantasy which is just awful. It seems so bizarre that given the depth and flavour of the universe why they became so inward and got rid of the more interesting armies like the TK, Brets, Wood Elves. A new plastic Dogs of War army or Kislev army would have been phenomenal, those things would have sold like hotcakes. I guess the issue was this whole nonsense with their fear of copyright which caused endless ruination, rather than Archaeon. Perhaps Copyrightus the Everchosen was what really killed of Fantasy.

_________________
One foot in the hobby


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:49 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7276
Location: The city of Spires
I think that each new edition could have been a source to advance the story line. They could have done it similar to the Elder Scrolls series. Where each edition shifts the timeline forward a few hundred years. Yes, it sort of ruins special characters. Though you could either have them feature as great-great-grandchild of whoever they were, have them similar to so O&G special characters who in the overall storyline are missing, presumed dead. And there are a few more or less immortal ones that just tend to stick around.

They could have also tried to advance the different story lines in new editions of the army books. They sort of did that with the last couple of army books prior to the End Times, like VC, where the story did evolve (though pretty badly, but that's something else).

In the end though, apart from the copyright thing people keep mentioning (and I don't believe very much...), I think that GW felt that WH as a game was stuck in its ways and they saw little opportunity to change it a little. And they probably felt trapped in the WH universe. Where each step they would take in whatever direction was bound to piss someone off.

These two combined I think meant that they chose to rip off the bandage in one go and take the opportunity to establish something completely new. Though I don't like it (and am not sure it was a smart business decision) it seems to be working at the moment. Sales are climbing, so there is that.
Luna Guardian wrote:
And that's another thing, it was always about destroying the world, which I found rather lame There was no "Sauron-esque" lawful evil option, really

I think this for me is the biggest issue in the WH universe. Though to put it a bit broader (having also read some of the black library books), it's mainly that the characters lack a lot of depth. The evil guys are all maniacs cackling away in a corner about how evil they are and they're trying to destroy the world. The O&G guys rampage simply because that's what they do. But the same for the good guys (as far as there are any real good guys). There is no real motives or complex characters.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:09 pm 
Offline
Pendragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:52 am
Posts: 1674
Location: Cold, miserable and expensive Finland
We seem to have veered away from the actual topic somewhat, so bringing it back to it (or trying to :P ).

I'll start with a list of small changes I'd have made if Warhammer would be a reconstruction of fantasy, rather than a deconstruction:'

High Elves:
- A closer parallel to the British Empire. The power of the Asur as a global superpower would be over, just as in current warhammer, but Ulthuan would not be entirely empty. Other than that, I would actually not make a lot of changes to the Asur's current situation, just make them more realistically sustainable population wise
- Tyrion and Teclis would apparently need to be fleshed out, but I'll leave this to someone who actually knows more about these two characters. I never really paid any attention to them TBH

Dwarves:
- Same as elves, the downfall has ended and they're consolidating what they have.

Empire:
- Either more religious tones to reign in the technological advancements ("these are the works of madmen and heretics!") or simply not have any of it at all, as otherwise the whole proliferation of gunpowder would curbstomp everyone else. Plus it is not particularly "fantastical"

Bretonnia:
- Honestly, keep as it is, just make it more prominent. Arthurian inspiration is a classic

Vampire Counts:
- Build up their legitimate claim to the Electorship of Sylvania, making them more of a "devil you know" faction rather than mustache twirling villains

Orcs and Goblins:
- Keep more or less as they are, although maybe reign in their numbers. Every setting needs an antagonist that just is antagonistic. Plus they're actually humorous, cockney accent and all

Chaos:
- This is a tough one, as it is one of the more unique aspects of Warhammer. I would make Chaos more defeatable, but also less necessary to be defeated. Right now there's the overhanging hopelessness that everything is doomed and nothing matters. It might be more interesting to have hints that Chaos actually could be defeated (as in, the Polar Gates closed), but each faction has their own reasons and petty squabbles which make this goal very, very hard to achieve (if realistically achievable at all!). However, to balance this out, Chaos incursions which "none could stand against" should be less frequent, and people (particularly the learned and the noble [as in heroic, not necessarily nobility]) should be more resistant to the corrupting powers of Chaos

Lizardmen:
- Honestly, no idea. I am not familiar enough with their lore, but their geographical location and isolationism makes them a bit difficult to include in grand stories, so maybe make them take a more proactive approach to the Great Plan

Skaven:
- Just less of them. Honestly, there's no way they'd remain a secret if there was a Skaven city under every Imperial and Bretonnian city and armies of Ratmen just running around the countryside. Maybe have them be literally dependent on Warpstone, so that they will die if they do not consume it regularly. This would also open up a pathway to diplomacy with them, even for "good" factions: You do what we want, and we give you mining rights to this warpstone deposit here.

Dark Elves:
- Less bloodmurdersexorgies and more cold, calculated evil. Literal nazis of the Warhammer world. They're inhabiting some of the crappiest places in the Warhammer world, they would have to have some rather strict societal roles and a very strong "waste not" mentality. Honestly, they're so fundamentally evil, that I am struggling to find a way to "reconstruct" them

Am I forgetting anyone important?

_________________
Prince Deral Lionbane, head of the House of Lionbane, Lord of Lionstone and Warden of Tor Charta

Luna, try not to beat them too hard. They are proud about their pseudo-glorious past and their present nothingness, you know.
-Elmoth, about Caledorians


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:29 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7276
Location: The city of Spires
Luna Guardian wrote:
We seem to have veered away from the actual topic somewhat, so bringing it back to it (or trying to ).

I tried. I really did, in my last paragraph... ;)
Luna Guardian wrote:
Am I forgetting anyone important?

Tomb kings, Ogres?

I think that in general, to rebuild the factions and create a stronger universe, each faction needs several things they strive for and some common sense behavior. Also, I think that the factions should be more diverse internally. Within one nation you will always find dissenting opinions and people with influence trying to achieve their own goals. Most of the WH races have one single purpose and goal. Not really that aspirational.

High Elves for instance are indeed a prime example of a former colonial superpower who are now hanging on to what they have left. But they are also traders at heart. Which means that they will sell pretty much anything to anyone as long as the price is right. Which also means that their ruling elite will squabble and often get in each others way if there is a profit to be made. It also opens up the door for a distinction between the old elite, with fancy titles and a long history and more up and coming merchant princes, who are richer but not as aristocratic.

Dwarves could be similar to the Byzantines. Not really a big colonial power. But the remnants of a huge and influential empire. Focused on preserving what they have. With a big and efficient bureaucratic layer whos focus is on tax collection to make sure all the standing armies keep getting paid on time.

Orcs and Goblins you could give some extra depth by making them a displaced race. In times no longer remembered they inhabited a paradise like land, "granted" to them by the ancients. They now fight to claim it back. Tough perhaps they're also not 100% sure where it actually is anymore. Or if it even still exists. This gives a reason for all the fighting. But it also means that you can have an O&G nation somewhere that is just happily farming away if left to their own devices since they believe they reached their homeland. Which also opens up more options for conflict, as they could get invaded by their neighbours, or cause a migration from other O&G to get there and so on.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:26 am
Posts: 123
Location: UK
I think the thing that surprises me the most is that despite having a huge world made and so much personality and ideas floating around rather than expanding they contracted and pushed themselves into a corner which they decided would end with everything.

An interesting imagining for me in Warhammer would have been chaos waning, retreating for the first time and seeing races strive north to retake land lost by the wastes, perhaps with less Chaos the Norse could become a stronger faction by themselves. The undead rise up again but perhaps with different factions being realigned. The Lahmians aiding humans against the Von Carstein menace in Sylvania.
Or expanding on Cathay, Nippon and Ind, so many new places to explore, new model lines there would have been incredible and also could have been a lot more inclusive? Seems like that would have been a smart business model.

They could have made armies forever and yet...

_________________
One foot in the hobby


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:42 am 
Offline
Pendragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:52 am
Posts: 1674
Location: Cold, miserable and expensive Finland
Prince of Spires wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
We seem to have veered away from the actual topic somewhat, so bringing it back to it (or trying to ).

I tried. I really did, in my last paragraph... ;)
Luna Guardian wrote:
Am I forgetting anyone important?

Tomb kings, Ogres?

I said important, didn't I? :P

Prince of Spires wrote:
I think that in general, to rebuild the factions and create a stronger universe, each faction needs several things they strive for and some common sense behavior. Also, I think that the factions should be more diverse internally. Within one nation you will always find dissenting opinions and people with influence trying to achieve their own goals. Most of the WH races have one single purpose and goal. Not really that aspirational.

That's a very good point, especially the common sense argument. A lot of the WH races don't even have a purpose or goal really, at least not beyond "survive" or "conquer/destroy". More nuanced goals, greater and lesser ambitions, would allow for far more exploration of the factions and expand the world without straying too far from what interested us about the world in the first place.

Prince of Spires wrote:
High Elves for instance are indeed a prime example of a former colonial superpower who are now hanging on to what they have left. But they are also traders at heart. Which means that they will sell pretty much anything to anyone as long as the price is right. Which also means that their ruling elite will squabble and often get in each others way if there is a profit to be made. It also opens up the door for a distinction between the old elite, with fancy titles and a long history and more up and coming merchant princes, who are richer but not as aristocratic.

With obvious and welcome parallels to real life historical development, I love it! It could also make the kingdoms even more distinct, with the ancient nobility of some kingdoms taking part in the trade as well (most likely more common in Cothique and Eataine), which would further muddy the waters of the aristocracy.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Dwarves could be similar to the Byzantines. Not really a big colonial power. But the remnants of a huge and influential empire. Focused on preserving what they have. With a big and efficient bureaucratic layer whos focus is on tax collection to make sure all the standing armies keep getting paid on time.

I quite enjoy this idea as well, even though few things say "exciting and action-packed" less than efficient tax collection :lol: . From a realistic perspective though, it does of course lend itself to a hugely powerful industrialized faction that can project force efficiently.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Orcs and Goblins you could give some extra depth by making them a displaced race. In times no longer remembered they inhabited a paradise like land, "granted" to them by the ancients. They now fight to claim it back. Tough perhaps they're also not 100% sure where it actually is anymore. Or if it even still exists. This gives a reason for all the fighting. But it also means that you can have an O&G nation somewhere that is just happily farming away if left to their own devices since they believe they reached their homeland. Which also opens up more options for conflict, as they could get invaded by their neighbours, or cause a migration from other O&G to get there and so on.

This might mess with the greenskins in Warhammer a little too much, unless handled very carefully. The kind of serious, kind of wacky personality of the greenskins is one of the unique aspects of WH, so having them have some understandable motivation might rob them of what makes them special. I always viewed the O&G more as a force of nature rather than a real faction, maybe they could actually be a creation of the Old Ones similar to 40k, but after Chaos defeated the Old Ones they were driven mad, and only a rare few retain the intelligence to treat with anyone outside their own kind? That would cause the constant fighting but still allow for players (and GW, hypothetically) to have their greenskins have goals, ambitions, etc. that wouldn't always put them in the role of the antagonist.

Olthannon wrote:
I think the thing that surprises me the most is that despite having a huge world made and so much personality and ideas floating around rather than expanding they contracted and pushed themselves into a corner which they decided would end with everything.

I think the probelm is as Prince of Spires mentioned, the world, while big, was also very hollow. Factions were very one dimensional and rigid, which didn't actually lend the setting to be expanded without a major upheaval. For example, the elves and the dwarves as written could never really reconcile, despite thousands of years having passed and neither civilization really changed at all during that time (except for a constant decline).

Olthannon wrote:
An interesting imagining for me in Warhammer would have been chaos waning, retreating for the first time and seeing races strive north to retake land lost by the wastes, perhaps with less Chaos the Norse could become a stronger faction by themselves.

That's actually very interesting. It would allow for a new theater of battle for all the factions, there could be a new Norscan faction that wants to break away from the madness and bloodshed of the Chaos gods, but that would be received very poorly by the other races due to mistrust, etc. Cool idea!

Olthannon wrote:
The undead rise up again but perhaps with different factions being realigned. The Lahmians aiding humans against the Von Carstein menace in Sylvania.

I admittedly don't know enough about the undead to comment here, although vampire bloodlines warring with each other makes very much sense. The Tomb Kings I don't see that differently from regular humans in their motivation, but given the obvious difference between the needs of the undead and the living, there could be some interesting interactions.

Olthannon wrote:
Or expanding on Cathay, Nippon and Ind, so many new places to explore, new model lines there would have been incredible and also could have been a lot more inclusive? Seems like that would have been a smart business model.

The "problem" with Cathay, Nippon, and Ind are the same as for Lizardmen I feel. They're too far from the Old World to realistically be present given the technology level of Warhammer. With the lizzies you can at least make the excuse that they have some special magical Old One portal technology which allows their armies to move to far away places in pursuit of the Great Plan though, but the rest I feel would be better represented as either mercenary troops or special characters.

_________________
Prince Deral Lionbane, head of the House of Lionbane, Lord of Lionstone and Warden of Tor Charta

Luna, try not to beat them too hard. They are proud about their pseudo-glorious past and their present nothingness, you know.
-Elmoth, about Caledorians


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:55 am
Posts: 250
Luna Guardian wrote:
I think the probelm is as Prince of Spires mentioned, the world, while big, was also very hollow. Factions were very one dimensional and rigid, which didn't actually lend the setting to be expanded without a major upheaval. For example, the elves and the dwarves as written could never really reconcile, despite thousands of years having passed and neither civilization really changed at all during that time (except for a constant decline).


Neither faction changing much would actually contribute to them not reconciling, though. Also, though thousands of years have passed, it's only 7 or so generations for the High Elves, and maybe twice that for the Dwarves. For a historical parallel, the rivalry between the British and French Empires lasted hundreds of years and only really ended when Germany came into existence. Another parallel would be the Romans and Persians that were rivals for several centuries as well.

Luna Guardian wrote:
The "problem" with Cathay, Nippon, and Ind are the same as for Lizardmen I feel. They're too far from the Old World to realistically be present given the technology level of Warhammer. With the lizzies you can at least make the excuse that they have some special magical Old One portal technology which allows their armies to move to far away places in pursuit of the Great Plan though, but the rest I feel would be better represented as either mercenary troops or special characters.


I think Cathay, Nippon, and Ind could be done, though. Another historical parallel would be that the British and other European powers definitely had a substantial presence in India and Indonesia in the 1600s, and 1700s which are relatively similar eras technologically to the Empire. Also the High Elves have colonies that far over, like the Gates of Cathay, so it wouldn't be impractical to suppose that a colony from Cathay or Ind was established somewhere in the Old World, and that could be the connection that gets the new faction into the game.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:26 am
Posts: 123
Location: UK
With new campaigns in those areas though it would have been quite easy to expand the story with both new factions and new models for the existing armies. Would have been the perfect opportunity to see total new flavour added to the world.

Let's say some climactic event happens and the world begins to warm, the jungles of Lustria and the Southlands begin to expand and so the Lizardmen begin expanding, perhaps this was part of the Old Ones intentions. This warming causes the polar gate to weaken somehow and thus the daemonic forces weaken and so the wastes retreat. With the iron boot of chaos not on the heads of the Norse tribes they begin to think for themselves a little more in their own vein and rely less on chaos and more on themselves, perhaps some even opening up to trade with the southern realms. Meanwhile Kislev sees a vast change as the weather warms and allows them to expand but face difficulty with the Ice Queen losing some power. Without constant chaos incursion they become the first to conquer the new receded wastes and thus Kislev army new releases.

Changes in the sea currents allows new trade to flourish opening up the East and the Ogres begin to move into their old lands decimated by the meteor. Human realms begin crossing the seas and oh look at that new Dogs of War armies. The perfect opportunity to try out new model themes, oh loads of people bought this regiment from Cathay or Araby or Tilea okay let's add some more models down that end easy marketing statistic.

The Bretonnians head into Araby again and thus get new models finally but also Tomb Kings, desert lizardmen, desert skaven and the forces of Araby push into the area too.

The warming weather allows the forests of Averlorn to grow exponentially and the badlands start to change.
That's one example that could last for a few years and then the polar gate starts to grow, winter returns even harsher and new things happen instead prompting new models new armies etc.
Etc and so forth. This took like 15 minutes to think about, how did GW not manage it in 15 years?

_________________
One foot in the hobby


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:13 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7276
Location: The city of Spires
Luna Guardian wrote:
This might mess with the greenskins in Warhammer a little too much, unless handled very carefully. The kind of serious, kind of wacky personality of the greenskins is one of the unique aspects of WH, so having them have some understandable motivation might rob them of what makes them special. I always viewed the O&G more as a force of nature rather than a real faction, maybe they could actually be a creation of the Old Ones similar to 40k, but after Chaos defeated the Old Ones they were driven mad, and only a rare few retain the intelligence to treat with anyone outside their own kind? That would cause the constant fighting but still allow for players (and GW, hypothetically) to have their greenskins have goals, ambitions, etc. that wouldn't always put them in the role of the antagonist.

I really like this idea. Makes sense to me (in some twisted way).

CaledorRises wrote:
Neither faction changing much would actually contribute to them not reconciling, though. Also, though thousands of years have passed, it's only 7 or so generations for the High Elves, and maybe twice that for the Dwarves. For a historical parallel, the rivalry between the British and French Empires lasted hundreds of years and only really ended when Germany came into existence. Another parallel would be the Romans and Persians that were rivals for several centuries as well.

It's a bit difficult to say which way it would go of course, given that we don't really live for that long. So it's hard to draw parallels. But 7000 odd years is a very long time. Which is of course also one of the issues you could have with the WH world as a whole. A lot can change in those 7000 years. But it feels that for most of that time the world and technology level were pretty much the same.

I do think however, that in 7000 years there would be some sensible people in both races, especially if you factor in the whole "the world has been about to end soon for the last 7000 years because of chaos invasions" into the mix. You would think that you would make friends with some of the more sane people around. But that's just me.

Olthannon wrote:
With new campaigns in those areas though it would have been quite easy to expand the story with both new factions and new models for the existing armies. Would have been the perfect opportunity to see total new flavour added to the world.

This is the other approach I would have considered. And it's actually more or less what I hoped the End Times would have been. A cool campaign that moves some parts of the story somewhere. I would have even been fine if it was later denied to have ever happened. As long as it's a cool campaign then I'm all up for it. And it offers lots of options for cool mini's and so on. Though perhaps, one issue with GW is that they are such a scale that small-ish campaigns don't move the needle too much for them in terms on return on investment.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:26 am
Posts: 123
Location: UK
That Orcs and Gobbos idea is similar to the Krorks in 40k right? That they were originally created by the Old Ones and slowly twisted over time?

_________________
One foot in the hobby


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:30 am 
Offline
Pendragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:52 am
Posts: 1674
Location: Cold, miserable and expensive Finland
Olthannon wrote:
That Orcs and Gobbos idea is similar to the Krorks in 40k right? That they were originally created by the Old Ones and slowly twisted over time?

Similar, yes, but given all the other similarities between the two settings, I don't think it's out of place :)

_________________
Prince Deral Lionbane, head of the House of Lionbane, Lord of Lionstone and Warden of Tor Charta

Luna, try not to beat them too hard. They are proud about their pseudo-glorious past and their present nothingness, you know.
-Elmoth, about Caledorians


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 11:49 am
Posts: 341
I would like to see the factions blended a bit.

For example, bretonnia and empire, there should be some blending influences, in the middle ages there werent nation states, instead you had rich families occupying different turfs, this changed wildly, ever heard of the spanish netherlands?

Vampire counts, they can't really work without human serfs, so give them that, empire or bretonnia infantry with undead filling up special units.

Mercenaries
Let all factions have mercenaries of every species and faith.

Occupation
What happens to the local population when they get occupied?
What happens to an empire province if one the following occupies it:
Bretonnia
High elves
Wood elves
Orcs and goblins
Chaos warriors
Ogre kingdoms
Vampire counts


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Warhammer reimagined
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 11:49 am
Posts: 341
End games

Stop using end game storytelling.

When one war ends new factions creep up to shake things up.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group