Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:40 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Hey Guys,

I'm currently in a campaign against a few races - Lizardmen, Wood elves, Dwarves and Tomb Kings - and so far have done fairly well. However, I'm kinda worried about playing against lizardmen, as stuff like Stegadons, Saurus, Slann, Salamanders etc. seriously give the shivers (That sort of stuff against T3...) and the player is probably the strongest out of all the others. Currently, my strategy revolves around utilising cavalry to out-maneuver, using ranged troops (Bolt throwers), the lore of shadows (but of course not against skinks). Any sort of advice on how to tackle them will be greatly appreciated, as well as advice on which elite troops should be brought (i.e. phoenix guard vs swordmasters vs white lions) and whether shadow warriors are worth taking.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2529
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Hi!

Lizardmen are a tricky opponent, though hardly overpowered in 8th edition.

The Skinks are a major pain - I typically run 5s of Silver Helms to counter them - they're more survivable than Reavers and still expendable enough.

Magic is a worry typically - luckily we have access to the BoHoeth to counter that somewhat, though a Dispel Scroll is also invaluable in this match up.

As for elites - I'd go for White Lions with the World Dragon. Strong enough to counter the Lizardmen heavies and their protection from ranged attacks is very useful.

Happy gaming!

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Thanks for that advice RE.Lee, a large unit of white lions with BotWD would definitely give him pause... but would a BoH be more or less important than a DS? I'm running the book, but not the scroll - I really want to, but lack the points.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2529
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Kaladin wrote:
would a BoH be more or less important than a DS? I'm running the book, but not the scroll - I really want to, but lack the points.


SpellArcher might disagree but I'd stick with the Book - the Frogs often depend on a trickle magic phase more than single big spells.

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Thanks


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:38 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6831
Location: The city of Spires
RE.Lee wrote:
Kaladin wrote:
would a BoH be more or less important than a DS? I'm running the book, but not the scroll - I really want to, but lack the points.

SpellArcher might disagree but I'd stick with the Book - the Frogs often depend on a trickle magic phase more than single big spells.

In my experience if you bring one you usually wish you had actually brought the other... ;)

Indeed, SpellArcher would probably advice the scroll. The thing about the scroll is that it lets you take out a single magic phase for sure. It's the sure way to get your way one turn.

For me the main difference is that if you have an army list that's vulnerable to a big spell or a specific spell then bring the scroll. Or if you have a fast, hard hitting list then bring the scroll. The scroll will either prevent that big spell from hitting you or buy you the turn you need to get your fast stuff where it needs to be.

If you expect to be up against a trickle magic phase (as LM often have) then the book is a very powerful tool. In effect it gives you about a +2 on your dispell roll, or the equivalent to 1 or 2 extra DD. It lets you use equal numbers of DD to their PD for a lot of spells or even fewer if they roll relatively low. Still, even in this situation the scroll if a powerful tool to have at your disposal.

As for WL, PG or SM, they're a bit personal preference. WL and PG are the most common and the strongest units I think. S6 is just a lot better then S5. And with bigger units the extra attack of the SM matters a lot less (with a single rank you get double the attacks, with 3 ranks you only get 1.33 times the attacks), stubborn is great and the BotWD is almost made for them.

PG, while only S4 are by far the tankiest unit we have. They can take an amazing beating and still come out on top. A 4+ ward combined with a good WS is just great. They also have the highest hit rate of the three units, since they will reroll to hit against all non-character and non-ASF models in the game (I6 is amazing). It's not uncommon for me to have a unit of 15 hit with all their attacks. Give them the razor banner and you're good to go.

Both PG and WL are a great unit when out on its own. Stubborn for the WL means they will stay put in most cases as long as a BSB is near. The PG with LD9 and their ward mean that they can strike out on their own. Both are great to have in an otherwise fast list where the characters tend to be a bit further away.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:35 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Kaladin wrote:
Stegadons, Saurus, Slann, Salamanders

I agree with the guys, World Dragon Lions are good against all of these.

Prince of Spires wrote:
For me the main difference is that if you have an army list that's vulnerable to a big spell or a specific spell then bring the scroll.

Exactly and this is most lists in my experience. There are exceptions like MSU. Here it depends what Lore the Slann is rocking. If he brings all the signature spells I can see the Book but with Life for example I would always take the Scroll because of Dwellers.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:51 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6831
Location: The city of Spires
Prince of Spires wrote:
For me the main difference is that if you have an army list that's vulnerable to a big spell or a specific spell then bring the scroll.

Exactly and this is most lists in my experience. There are exceptions like MSU. Here it depends what Lore the Slann is rocking. If he brings all the signature spells I can see the Book but with Life for example I would always take the Scroll because of Dwellers.[/quote]
If he brings dwellers on a Slann then you'll definitely wish you had a scroll with you at some point. It's the main threat to a BotWD WL unit (along with similar "no saves of any kind allowed big spells). And it's such a big threat that you will want to keep some dice to stop it at all cost I think. Which means that in a big-ish magic phase he will probably get the first or even the first two spells cast, simply because of the threat of dwellers. He doesn't even need to cast it the whole game. But just the option to be able to cast it is enough I think.

Still, I like the book as well (and often bring it in favour of a scroll I might add). Both because it does something in each turn, so it spreads out the defence. And it works offensively as well. It turns an average magic phase (which a single lvl 4 with no toys is) into a strong one.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Thanks for all the advice. For the record, the slaan has the high-magic-loremaster discipline, but I'll probably still run the scroll. He is also taking a lot of saurus, a stegadon and a few ripperdactyls.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:53 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Kaladin wrote:
For the record, the slaan has the high-magic-loremaster discipline, but I'll probably still run the scroll.

Book should also be OK here because World Dragon laughs at Convocation. He might Unforge it but unless you have characters in the Lions this shouldn't be a disaster.

Kaladin wrote:
ripperdactyls

Kill these with fire (or lots of shooting).

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Jeez, how could I forget about the Banner of the World Dragon... :) :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:32 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Kaladin wrote:
Banner of the World Dragon

It's even better than it seems.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:34 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6831
Location: The city of Spires
Let us know how the game went. It's always nice to read how the theory-hammer turned out in real life. Somehow, once you give something over to dice interesting and unexpected things happen :)

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Yup, I'll be (hopefully) playing him on Thursday, and I'll let you guys know how that turns out!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:41 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Kaladin wrote:
Yup, I'll be (hopefully) playing him on Thursday, and I'll let you guys know how that turns out!

Interested to hear about this.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
Well, I didn't end up confronting him...but I've got him in a situation where he will inevitably need to fight me so at our next meeting I will play him. Out Tomb Kings player changed to Dark Elves, which is an affront that cannot be borne! I crushed him in our battle quite convincingly.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:57 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Kaladin wrote:
Out Tomb Kings player changed to Dark Elves, which is an affront that cannot be borne! I crushed him in our battle quite convincingly.

Bravo! There’s a moral there. What was in his army?

Kaladin wrote:
at our next meeting I will play him.

Juicy!

=D>

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
We played 1500pt armies.
Dark Elves:
Supreme Sorceress on a dark steed, Lvl. 4, tome of furion
Master on a dark steed, sea dragon cloak, Heavy armour, killy weapon
17 dreadspears
20 darkshards
15/20 black guard
5 doomfire warlocks
1 war hydra
2 reaper bolt throwers

My army was a dodgy themed list around Avelorn:
Alarielle
Noble, BSB, Banner of Avelorn, Dragon Armour, shield
Handmaiden, Reaver bow, Enchanted shield
20 archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers
2 Eagle Eye Bolt Throwers
20 phoenix guard
10 sisters of avelorn

My bolt throwers were actually accurate and wounded, for once. They took out the hydra AND the reaper bolt throwers (hand of glory for the win!). I also took out his darkshards with an irresisitible Dwellers, which was especially nice when the miscast roll was a 12. After that, only a small number of black guard and doomfire warlocks made it across the board after bearing the brunt of my shooting! I was extremely lucky to come away with a win with a margin like that - I made some exceptionally good rolls (for once), and my list was definitely not the most competitive.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
His list could also have been better - to mount the master wouldn't have been my first inclination, and if I did I probably would've used a cold one and a cold one knight bus of some sort. The sorceress would've also benefited from "look out sir!" saves on foot


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:39 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Kaladin wrote:
I was extremely lucky to come away with a win with a margin like that - I made some exceptionally good rolls (for once), and my list was definitely not the most competitive.

Elf v elf games tend to be bloody and can go heavily one way or the other Kaladin. Your opponent did have some strong elements like the Warlocks and Sorceress but your list looks slightly stronger and better focused.

Kaladin wrote:
His list could also have been better - to mount the master wouldn't have been my first inclination, and if I did I probably would've used a cold one and a cold one knight bus of some sort. The sorceress would've also benefited from "look out sir!" saves on foot

The most competitive Dark Elf lists tend to sport a lot of Dark Riders to protect the mounted characters. Everything is Fast Cavalry, so fantastically mobile. DE characters hit incredibly hard, the DR's are mainly there to provide bodies. It really helps the whole list that they're Core.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
SpellArcher wrote:
Elf v elf games tend to be bloody and can go heavily one way or the other Kaladin. Your opponent did have some strong elements like the Warlocks and Sorceress but your list looks slightly stronger and better focused.

You think? I was trying to emulate what I believe would be the Avelorn style of fighting (although I really couldn't resist the PG - maybe white lions are more thematically linked? or do the PG do the whole "spiritual guardian" thing well enough to fit?). Maybe next time, another bolt thrower! (when can you have too many of those? :wink: )

SpellArcher wrote:
The most competitive Dark Elf lists tend to sport a lot of Dark Riders to protect the mounted characters. Everything is Fast Cavalry, so fantastically mobile. DE characters hit incredibly hard, the DR's are mainly there to provide bodies. It really helps the whole list that they're Core.

Yeah, DR's were also something that was missing - but don't Fast Cavalry units lost F.C. if a character without it joins them? Or is that just me? But regardless, they were definitely sorely missed. His Dreadspears were absolutely minced by my shooting, as were his blackguard.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:03 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6831
Location: The city of Spires
Kaladin wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
Elf v elf games tend to be bloody and can go heavily one way or the other Kaladin. Your opponent did have some strong elements like the Warlocks and Sorceress but your list looks slightly stronger and better focused.

You think? I was trying to emulate what I believe would be the Avelorn style of fighting (although I really couldn't resist the PG - maybe white lions are more thematically linked? or do the PG do the whole "spiritual guardian" thing well enough to fit?). Maybe next time, another bolt thrower! (when can you have too many of those? :wink: )

PG and WL each have about as much reason to be in Averlorn as the other. WL are the personal bodyguard of the phoenix king. Which makes it entirely plausible that they show up in Averlorn at some point on the orders of the king. Also, since Chrace is just north of Averlorn you could also say they're a regiment of Chracian warriors protecting their neighboring province.

PG are also partially commanded by the Phoenix king, though they are more independent then the WL I think. They go where their god commands them. Which means you can make them show up pretty much anywhere. Of course, protecting the avatar of a fellow god might be more unusual.
Kaladin wrote:
but don't Fast Cavalry units lost F.C. if a character without it joins them?

They do indeed. P68 of the BRB, if the character doesn't have the FC rule then the unit loses it until the character leaves again. Though you can move from one unit to the next with great ease, since a lone character pivots which makes him as mobile as a FC unit. And it's very well possible that the DE characters have some extra special rule regarding this.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:30 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Prince of Spires wrote:
And it's very well possible that the DE characters have some extra special rule regarding this.

Dark Steeds have the Fast Cavalry Special Rule, which applies whoever is riding, Dark Elf army book pg 87. Wood Elf Steeds share this but High Elf Steeds don't.

Kaladin wrote:
His Dreadspears were absolutely minced by my shooting, as were his blackguard.

Both too slow in the grand scheme of things and don't do enough damage, plus they lack the durability of High Elf elites. Witch Elves are a better choice, very killy.

Kaladin wrote:
You think? I was trying to emulate what I believe would be the Avelorn style of fighting

Your list was better at range Kaladin, which again really matters in elf games, especially when the enemy lacks fast combat threat.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:15 am
Posts: 16
SpellArcher wrote:
Dark Steeds have the Fast Cavalry Special Rule, which applies whoever is riding, Dark Elf army book pg 87. Wood Elf Steeds share this but High Elf Steeds don't.

Wait, seriously? Auto-Fast Cavalry? Bah! I will not tolerate this obvious mistake made by GW - we obviously have the superior steeds... [-X
Well, it kinda makes sense, I guess - we get Ithilimar Barding, after all...Oh wait, nevermind - D.E. get sea dragon cloaks! huh.....
I'd still back High Elves any day though. By far the superior race :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:20 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6831
Location: The city of Spires
SpellArcher wrote:
Kaladin wrote:
His Dreadspears were absolutely minced by my shooting, as were his blackguard.

Both too slow in the grand scheme of things and don't do enough damage, plus they lack the durability of High Elf elites. Witch Elves are a better choice, very killy.

As infantry you need to be one of three things I think:
- cheap
- durable
- very hard hitting
Or some mix of these. Which is why PG work well and people usually prefer WL over SM. And why glass cannons like Witch Elves are also popular.

An issue with infantry based lists is that you often give up the initiative, the choice about where and when to fight. You need to be able to force your opponent to move. Which is why I think your HE list has a slight upper hand on the DE list. The shooting and strong Alarielle magic phase force your opponent to either suffer a lot of ranged damage or they need to come to you. And then 20 PG are a tough nut to crack.
Kaladin wrote:
I'd still back High Elves any day though. By far the superior race

Yeah. Unfortunately someone forgot to mention this fact to the GW army book writers...
#-o

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Playing Lizardmen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:21 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12207
Location: Otherworld
Prince of Spires wrote:
An issue with infantry based lists is that you often give up the initiative, the choice about where and when to fight. You need to be able to force your opponent to move. Which is why I think your HE list has a slight upper hand on the DE list. The shooting and strong Alarielle magic phase force your opponent to either suffer a lot of ranged damage or they need to come to you. And then 20 PG are a tough nut to crack.

This.

Kaladin wrote:
Well, it kinda makes sense, I guess - we get Ithilimar Barding, after all...Oh wait, nevermind - D.E. get sea dragon cloaks! huh.....

Both armies are among the strongest but DE's probably have an edge.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group