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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:42 am 
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Turn 3:

Titan moves towards the table edge, killing some Hounds on the way.

The Bloodthirster charges the Silver Helms in the flank. Bestigor Chariot smashes into the Spearmen. Shaggoth and a Razorgor rally.
I boost the Bestigors with Wildform - S7 could come in handy against the Dragon. The Ungors once again manage to wound the Titan!
Gors and the Bloodthrister finish off the Silver Helms (BSB included).
Bestigors deal a couple of wounds to the Dragon and lose several of their number in return. Luckily my opponents rolled a 1 for Thunderstomp and then another 1 to wound!
Phoenix Guards did their thing and massacred the poor Crushers.
Gorebeast Chariot killed some Spearmen and pinned them in place.

Image

White Lions joined in against the Bestigors. Eagle moved to block my Gors, who received some solid shooting to the face.
Magic was stopped.
Dragon kept grinding the Bestigors, who held out. Spearmen vs Gorebeast continued as well.

Image

Turn 4:

Shaggoth charge the Dragon Princes (remember those?), who decide to flee. Bloodthirster hits the Dragon in the back. Gors go for the speed-bump Eagle.
I cast Wildform on both the Gors and the Daemon, suffering a minor miscast on the way.
Hellcannon misfires but still deals 2 wound to the Titan, though can no longer use its shooting attack. Fair enough.
Dragon finishes off the Bestigors and exchanges some blows with the Thirster. Gors deal with the Eagle and smash into the Archers.
Gorebeast brakes the Spearmen up north.

Image

Swordmasters charge the Gors in the side. Phoenix Guards take the Forest.
Pha's Protection is cast on the Dragon, though the Archmage loses 2 levels in the process.
Gors are wiped out, with the Shamans and BSB the last to go.
Dragon and Bloodthirster deal some more wounds to each other, using up their breath weapons.

Image

Turn 5 summary:

Swordmasters try to assault the Fort, but are repulsed with heavy casualties.
Dragon manages to slay the Bloodthirster.

Image

Objectives:
Fort: Chaos
Forest: High Elves
Titan: 7:1 for Chaos

Its a 2:1 victory for the Legion!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:04 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
S7 could come in handy against the Dragon.

Absolutely, the T7 is rock.

RE.Lee wrote:
Gors and the Bloodthrister finish off the Silver Helms (BSB included).

This unit does not like long grinds.

RE.Lee wrote:
Swordmasters try to assault the Fort, but are repulsed with heavy casualties.

If they'd won, what would be break test have been on?

RE.Lee wrote:
Dragon manages to slay the Bloodthirster.

See above, lol!

RE.Lee wrote:
Titan: 7:1 for Chaos

So this was the difference. It left the HE's needing both terrain features, which proved too much.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:30 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
Titan: 7:1 for Chaos

So this was the difference. It left the HE's needing both terrain features, which proved too much.

It might very well be that the T1 Curse of Anraheir on the SM helped decide the game. Larger units in general are very tough to shift from buildings. And Elves even more so. High natural LD means that they will stick around until their all gone. And SM are definitely the unit to have in a building. The two attacks mean you make the most of the ten models in there. And a lot of their natural counters (monsters, chariots and shooting) are ineffective against a building. And of course, once they are depleted they can easily be replaced by another elven unit. Try getting PG out there :)

What didn't help the elves was that they had limited options to deal damage to the Titan at range and that he kept wandering around close to the board edge. Had he wandered further up the field perhaps a unit could have done some damage to it. Though of course the dragon, most likely candidate to put on the hurt, was at the wrong side of the field for that.

Fun battle. And I think the scenario worked out well. Having three focal points meant you had to spread out and hiding and coming to contest an objective only late in the game wouldn't cut it.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:01 am 
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The scenario, using a mix of tried and tested objectives, did work very well mechanically, but crucially the battle itself was tense and dramatic.

The Titan proved to be the key objective and I think the Elves had all the tools to compete there - 3 RBTs and a lot of archers to squeeze those wounds through. Our Ungors showed how even modest shooting can make a difference and the Hellcannon was entirely committed to scoring in that part of the field, though it might have targeted enemy units elsewhere. Our opponents had some bad luck with the RBT shot they did send the Titan's way and were unwilling to send fighters against it. A mistake I think because the Dragon could easily withstand the 3D6-Ld wounds and its damage potential could have swung the battle. I believe they were still traumatized by what happened to the Empire Knights in our Halloween battle in 2016 and wanted to keep clear! :lol:

The Forest was hotly contested from the start. The aggressive move of the White Lions was a nice surprise as my Bestigors could get right at it. This pulled the Dragon into this part of the field and kept it here, thanks to the sacrifice of the unit. This was a battle I could expect to win, but that just had to happen somewhere. The development put pressure on the Crushers, who initially did very well against the Phoenix Guards but fluffed their rolls in the second round of combat and had to give ground to the impeccably consistent elven elites. With no other units in a position to contest the Forest I just slammed the Bloodthirster here to delay a potential counter attack,

The Fort saw little action. The Curse of Anraheir didn't do much, really, as the Swordmasters were too far away to walk into the building (despite their M6 - you can't march move into buildings after all!) and it was not occupied at the time, so they couldn't assault either. I took the objective next turn with a seemingly immovable unit of Tzeentch Warriors with a Chaos Lord leading them (Ld 10, due to BoDiscipline) and the Elves pretty much gave up trying to take it. That was a fair assessment but the mistake was not using the Swordmasters elsewhere - they did help finish off the Gors in the middle of the field but that didn't go towards actually claiming any objectives! Moving them aggressively against the Titan and using all those attack to change thing there would have been a better idea.

So, the Chaos side played to the scenario a bit more, whereas the Elves gave in to the slaughter (wait, what!?). It was far from a game of chess though, as both armies produced some daring feats and epic moments. Though the Dragon obviously confirmed its position as apex predator, my MVP choice would probably be the Ungors, who, against all odds, wounded the Titan not once but twice!

Image

Thanks for taking the time to read the report!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:40 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
RBTs and a lot of archers to squeeze those wounds through.

Yeah, maybe they should have kept at it.

RE.Lee wrote:
Dragon could easily withstand the 3D6-Ld wounds

The odds were good but a big roll could really hurt here.

RE.Lee wrote:
aggressive move of the White Lions was a nice surprise

So they should have waited for the dragon?

RE.Lee wrote:
Ld 10

The Swordmasters have to get really lucky.

RE.Lee wrote:
Elves gave in to the slaughter

Ulthuan has seen a fair bit of this approach, to be fair!

RE.Lee wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to read the report!

Thanks for writing it RE.

=D>

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:31 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
Elves gave in to the slaughter

Ulthuan has seen a fair bit of this approach, to be fair!


That's a problem we just fail to acknowledge :lol:

The White Lions should have probably waited for the Phoenix Guards. They each got the wrong match-up - WLs would be better off fighting the 1+ Crushers, while PGs withstanding the S6 of the Bestigors.

With Ld10 and all those Chaos Warriors inside the Fort was impossible to take. Perhaps it was unreasonable to include it as an objective in such a big game. At 2 - 2,4k it works better because units can actually be ground down.

Key theoretical scenario:

Dragon goes for the Titan instead of the Bestigors.

Starting turn 1 the Dragon would deal around 2,5 wounds/round so it would take pretty much all game to balance out the 7 damage points done by Chaos. With its Ld of 10 and a 4+ ward save it would be pretty safe from damage - only 1 wound would slip through on average throughout the game.

How would its lack on the other side of the field influence things?

Assuming the Bloodthirster goes against the SH as it did, I think the Elves would have a big problem with securing the Forest. The Bestigors, having crushed the White Lions were in a good position to turn around and deal with the Phoenix Guards (who were already lucky to slay the Crushers). The Bloodthirster could then help out the Gors in the center and not even the Swordmaster would have swung things there.

In summary - nothing could stand in the way of a force like this!

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:34 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
o, the Chaos side played to the scenario a bit more, whereas the Elves gave in to the slaughter (wait, what!?).

I think this was probably the crucial thing. The battle would always focus on the forest and the titan. The Fort of course is important, but the first to get a big enough high LD unit in there would have a good chance of holding it for the rest of the battle. Which is both important, but also takes a unit out of the rest of the action (since you can't really walk out anymore).

And we've seen in previous scenario battles that keeping the scenario in mind with all actions is often key. You could have lost the entire Northern flank and still won as long as you did enough wounds to the Titan. In this battle the only unit you needed to still be on the field at the end of the battle to still win was the Tzeentch warriors in the fort.

Perhaps it's something to consider for a next scenario. Add in something that will turn a win into a draw if enough of the units on the field are dead. For instance, having more then double the number of points still on the table shifts a loss to a draw and a draw to a win in your favor. Maybe not something for every scenario but to change things up.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:54 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Perhaps it's something to consider for a next scenario. Add in something that will turn a win into a draw if enough of the units on the field are dead. For instance, having more then double the number of points still on the table shifts a loss to a draw and a draw to a win in your favor. Maybe not something for every scenario but to change things up.


I hear you. I've already gone back to some battles of attrition with the "3 units worth 1VP each" scenario - mixing it in with some of the objective based ones could work. Making it so that the units worth the VPs could not score objectives would make it even more interesting (though perhaps also convoluted). The ability to sacrifice an entire army just to reach your goal is very epic though...

I'll be playing another battle with the VC next week probably. Ideas on which army I should field? The Empire once more into the breach? Skaven invasion?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:03 am 
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Skaven, definitely. We haven't seen them in a while I think. And, lot's of fun, potentially explosive toys to play around with (and blame someone else for if stuff goes wrong). What's not to like? ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Skaven, definitely.

+1

Do you play with Stormfiends at all RE?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:54 am 
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You leave me no choice - its Skaven! The game is arranged for Thursday, we'll be doing 2.4k points with a random scenario.

Last time the ratmen took on the Vampire Counts it was a rather lucky victory for me, with the Doomwheel crushing the Necrolord before the Gutter Runners claimed the key objectives. I'll definitely give those guys another go, not sure about the rest of the list yet.

I haven't tried the Stormfiends, no. I'm really happy with the Skaven Rare selection and so I've never even bought the models :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:17 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
You leave me no choice - its Skaven! The game is arranged for Thursday, we'll be doing 2.4k points with a random scenario.

=D>

RE.Lee wrote:
I haven't tried the Stormfiends, no. I'm really happy with the Skaven Rare selection and so I've never even bought the models

It says something that replacing very good units like WLC's can make a clear difference to an army's power level. Stormfiends are pure filth.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:14 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Stormfiends are pure filth.


So I've heard :wink:

Skaven list:

Grey Seer, Obsidian Lodestone, Dispel Scroll
Grey Seer, Power Scroll

BSB, SoDiscipline, shield
Warlock Engineer, Doom Rocket

42 Stormvermin, command, Razor Banner
Warpfire Thrower
3x40 Slaves

2x10 Gutter Runner, poison, slings
10 Plague Censer Bearers

Abomination, spikes
Warp Cannon
Doomwheel

Vampire Counts:

Kemmler

Wight BSB, stuff
Vampire, enchanted shield
Necromancer, lvl 2, dispel scroll
Banshee
Wraith

40ish Zombies
30ish Skeletons
24ish Ghouls
5 Dire Wolves

24 Grave Guards, commang, great weapons, BotBurrows
3 Vargheists
5 Hexwraiths
3 Spirit Hosts
Corpse Cart

We rolled 1 on our table, meaning we'd be playing the now almost default scenario of 3 units being worth 1VP each to the enemy force. My friend picked his Grave Guards, Skeletons and Zombies, while I, rather surprisingly, went for the Stormvermin and 2 units of Gutter Runners. I figured I'd be sacrificing the Slaves units freely, while the Abomb and PCBs were to much of a front line unit to be considered.

Deployment:

Image

For spells I got:
Warplightning, Death Frenzy, Scorch, 13th
Blessed with Filth, Cloud of Corruption, Plague, 13th

Kemmler is a loremaster of the Lore of Vampires. The small Necro got Gaze of Nagash and Nehek, the Vampire - Nehek.

Seems like a solid wizard's duel - who'll come out on top?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:34 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Obsidian Lodestone

I can see this vs Curse of Years and the Rod. Without Wards though, the characters look a bit exposed in combat and they don't have a Clanrat bunker to easily avoid this.

RE.Lee wrote:
Dispel Scroll

I'd have been tempted to take Earthing Rod on the General and stick the Scroll on a Hero.

RE.Lee wrote:
24 Grave Guards

If these guys don't eat a Dreaded 13th at least once I'll be very surprised. Hence might be a slightly risky choice as a scoring unit.

RE.Lee wrote:
I, rather surprisingly, went for the Stormvermin and 2 units of Gutter Runners

This makes sense because it'll be hard for the VC's to target the Gutters. Gaze of Nagash is a threat but it doesn't look terrifying.

RE.Lee wrote:
Deployment

I was initially a bit worried about your right flank RE but now I see you've got Gutter Runners there. You'll probably need to nail the Hexwraiths with magic though. You've got some nice blocks to get your Rares stuck into on the other flank.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:12 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
24 Grave Guards

If these guys don't eat a Dreaded 13th at least once I'll be very surprised.


:lol:

In my first draft I had a 4+ ward on my Seer General but then dropped it, figuring that if he gets into combat I'm toast anyway and the points can be better spent elsewhere. This brings up the question of why even take Stormvermin over Clanrats in the first place - as of yet, unanswered :wink:

Turn 1:

I push up with my flanks, which is questionable tactics given the GRs status. The mass infantry in the center only advance to be in range of spells. I first cast Warplightning and Scorch at the Hexwraiths, both of which are dispelled, than Plague, which is Scrolled. The WLC kills 4 Hexwraith, while my Gutter Runners fail to even scratch the Vargheists with their poisoned shots.

Image

The VC move forward, mostly down the middle. Vargheist fail their charge against the Gutter Runners, but the lone Hexwraith makes it. In the magic phase I take a Gaze of Nagash with the other GR unit, luckily only losing 2. The Hexwraith runs down the other unit and I'm down 0:1 already.

Image

Turn 2:

The Doomwheel crashes into some Dire Wolves in front of it. The Abomb advances a bit, with the PCBs next to it.
I use up my Warpstone supply to cast Scorch and then 13th on the Grave Guards leaving only the champion, the Vampire and the BSB standing. Standing just in front of the Doomwheel, I must add, and they get hit by the contraption after it runs over the Wolves. In the meanwhile I let lose the Rocket against the Ghouls, killing some 12.

Image

The VC are shell-shocked. The Vargheists are withdrawn from the flank and put in rearguard duty. Spirit Hosts turn inside as well. The Hexwraith charges the WLC, the crew of which flees in terror. Magic is stopped with a Scroll. The Doomwheel kills the last Grave Guard (1VP for me) and the Vamp, but the BSB is going nowhere.

Image

A big turn there and the VC center is very much threatened. I now regret not picking my Slaves as VP carriers - the Gutter Runners are either dead or vulnerable and the enemy tar-pits not that easy to deal with. Bets?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:18 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
I first cast Warplightning and Scorch at the Hexwraiths, both of which are dispelled, than Plague, which is Scrolled.

This all makes sense.

RE.Lee wrote:
The WLC kills 4 Hexwraith, while my Gutter Runners fail to even scratch the Vargheists with their poisoned shots.

Slightly unfortunate.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Hexwraith runs down the other unit and I'm down 0:1 already.

I guess it might have paid to stay back.

RE.Lee wrote:
I use up my Warpstone supply to cast Scorch and then 13th on the Grave Guards leaving only the champion, the Vampire and the BSB standing.

Great work! This is one reason why relying heavily on Infantry has it's downsides.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Hexwraith charges the WLC, the crew of which flees in terror.

Artillery crew don't Flee from failed Panic tests (pg 110).

RE.Lee wrote:
Bets?

Yeah, the Gutter Runners are taking a pounding. In a straight VP's game you'd be well on top but it might be hard to grind through those Core units. Unrestrained use of Dreaded 13th to come?

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:33 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
The Hexwraith charges the WLC, the crew of which flees in terror.

Artillery crew don't Flee from failed Panic tests (pg 110).


Indeed! This did not change much - they'd have broken and died anyway.

SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
Bets?

Yeah, the Gutter Runners are taking a pounding. In a straight VP's game you'd be well on top but it might be hard to grind through those Core units. Unrestrained use of Dreaded 13th to come?

:)


This is why we play scenarios! It can be tricky to get things right, especially if you have no chance to tailor your list to what the objectives turn out to be.

Turn 3.

I advance on all fronts, except for the Gutter Runners, who, fittingly, make a run for it. Magic kills some more Ghouls (Scorch again, I believe. What a wonderfully useful spell!) and they now pose no threat at all to the Abomination. The Doomwheel finishes off the enemy BSB.

Image

Spirit Hosts charge the Doomwheel, while the Vargheists fail miserably to support. In the meanwhile, Kemmler flies out of his doomed bunker and fries the other Gutter Runner unit. The Zombies try to move out of the way of the Abomination. The Spirit Hosts win their fight but my Wheel holds.

Image

Turn 4.

Plague Censer Bearers charge the Corpse Cart and overrun into the Skeletons. The Abomination crashes into the Zombies, killing 32 (including crumble). A unit of Slaves supports the Doomwheel and the Spirit Hosts are banished.

Image

Vargheists finally make it into combat, killing the Doomwheel and bumping into the Slaves behind it. Kemmler tries to support his mass of infantry but the Abomination finishes off the Zombies and the PCBs decimate the Skeletons.

Image

Turns 5&6.

Abomination helps out the PCBs in their second round of combat and the Skeletons are no more.

Vargheists continue their grind against the Slaves.

Image

Kemmler, who seemingly is the only one getting things done, flies up next to the Stormvermin and casts Wind of Death, then Gaze of Nagash, then Curse of Years on them - all successfully. Loads and loads of dice are rolled but thanks to my Magic Resistance, only over 20 rats perish, I pass my panic test and win the battle 3:2!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:42 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
This is why we play scenarios!

It's almost like two different games at times. I prefer VP's but I can absolutely see the plusses in pure scenario play.

RE.Lee wrote:
Scorch again, I believe. What a wonderfully useful spell!

A round template that doesn't scatter.

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
The Abomination crashes into the Zombies, killing 32

Just demands respect doesn't it?

RE.Lee wrote:
Kemmler, who seemingly is the only one getting things done, flies up next to the Stormvermin and casts Wind of Death, then Gaze of Nagash, then Curse of Years on them - all successfully. Loads and loads of dice are rolled but thanks to my Magic Resistance, only over 20 rats perish, I pass my panic test and win the battle 3:2!

That was seriously vindictive of him. Obsidian Amulet quite literally for the win!

Skaven are just so good at killing Infantry and there were loads here. What seemed decisive was getting the Rares into them, which the VC's just looked unable to counter.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:38 am 
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Congrats on the win. You played it out as Skaven are meant to be played I think. The rare choices dealing loads of damage, backed up by strong magic and some fun toys and a battle line that has so many bodies the opponent doesn't know where to start.

I think that one of the main events of the battle turned out to be your magic phase T1. You managed to draw the scroll that early, which meant you could go all out on dreaded 13th in T2, which turned the battle heavily in your favor. No longer having that GG unit + vampire and BSB in the middle of the field was a big thing. And if your opponent would have still had the scroll then you probably would have saved some warpstone tokens, increasing the chance of simply not getting it cast and definitely running into the scroll.

I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been better for your opponent to take a spell T1 and save the scroll for later. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing. But perhaps the Hexwraits weren't really worth investing the scroll into start of T1. Sometimes a unit just has to take one for the team. Especially with an infantry list and dreaded 13th on the table.

SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
This is why we play scenarios!

It's almost like two different games at times. I prefer VP's but I can absolutely see the plusses in pure scenario play.

It's definitely different. But perhaps in the same way that a tournament game can be different from a regular game. If in a tournament game at the end you know that not doing anything T6 secures you a big win you probably simply do nothing whereas in a friendly game you might just charge a unit or cast a spell because you can.

Similarly in a scenario game I think. The game mechanics are the same. But the decisions you make and how you get points is very different. The downside sometimes seems to be that the person who wins is the one who focuses on the scenario objectives the most and not the person who (from a battle line perspective of course) plays the best. It is a great way to change things up. I recently had a blood and glory game (battle report coming up, if I can find the time). Which a lot closer to battle line. But still creates a very different feel and plan up front.

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I think that one of the main events of the battle turned out to be your magic phase T1. You managed to draw the scroll that early, which meant you could go all out on dreaded 13th in T2, which turned the battle heavily in your favor. (...) perhaps the Hexwraits weren't really worth investing the scroll into start of T1. Sometimes a unit just has to take one for the team. Especially with an infantry list and dreaded 13th on the table.


I agree entirely. The Hexwraiths did well and scored a VP point early in the game but they could have been sacrificed and the Vargheists would do the same thing eventually. Keeping the Scroll for game-changing spells is crucial - especially when, thanks the the Power Scroll, I don't even need to use 6 dice to cast the 13th. These are hard things to call during a game though and my opponent still played a good battle, his bold action with Kemmler a highlight.

As SpellArcher mentioned - the sheer force of the Abomination was too much to handle for the weak undead. With the GGs intact (or even just the Vamp) it would go down eventually.

Of course, the Doomwheel did really well here, too...

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Rematch this weekend!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:13 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
The Hexwraiths did well and scored a VP point early in the game but they could have been sacrificed and the Vargheists would do the same thing eventually.

Remember that game where one Hexwraith wreaked havoc vs High Elves? Maybe the Skaven just weren't as vulnerable here.

RE.Lee wrote:
These are hard things to call during a game though

You're not wrong RE.

RE.Lee wrote:
Of course, the Doomwheel did really well here, too...

Absolutely! Scary when not countered.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:37 pm 
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The Hexwraith killing 2-point Slaves is just not that impressive, I guess :lol:

Rematch called off as my friend's wife just gave birth to a little baby boy!

Maybe I'll play someone else though, so here's a long overdue conversion of the Skaven BSB. IoB body with Stormvermin head and arms, some greenstuff and bits:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:21 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Rematch called off as my friend's wife just gave birth to a little baby boy!

pfff, all these kids and family things getting in the way of some nice fun gaming... Can't you just go and play at his place? He'll be awake most of the time anyway... ;)
Congrats to him. :)

SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
The Hexwraiths did well and scored a VP point early in the game but they could have been sacrificed and the Vargheists would do the same thing eventually.

Remember that game where one Hexwraith wreaked havoc vs High Elves? Maybe the Skaven just weren't as vulnerable here.

I think the difference is number of wounds and points per model / unit. With HE each model you kill represents a lot of points and generally there are few models in a unit. Which means that S of the attack and WS become more important, as does not taking any wounds back.

Fighting cheap models requires something different. And since these are generally low T, low armour and low WS models, the number of attacks you have becomes a lot more important. I wouldn't be surprised if 1 Hexwraith kills about the same number of HE and Skaven models per turn on average. Which is a lot more devastating if your model is 13 ppm instead of 2. And things like steadfast make it even worse.

This is why MC is such a powerful choice. They have a high enough volume of attacks to be able to deal with both types of models. The same with a monster like a dragon. The number of attacks per '' is high enough to deal with larger units and of high enough quality to deal with elite units (though a dragon can use more help vs deep, steadfast blocks).

SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
These are hard things to call during a game though

You're not wrong RE.

Definitely. As said, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and it's easy to see where things went wrong if you know everything that happens. After all, you could have just as easily rolled 3 - 4 dice for the T2 magic phase and perhaps together with a channel from your opponent (with a 1-3 chance not unlikely) have done absolutely nothing in that magic phase. Which would have made us say "Good call from your opponent to use his scroll T1, which let him get into your line almost intact".

Especially with magic, but also with most of the other moments in the game, the goal is to give your opponent as many bad choices as possible. And here you were lucky with 2 decent to good magic phases in a row at the start of the battle. And you fully capitalized on it, which gave your opponent a couple of bad choices.

It's sort of the same rationale as blocking a unit with an eagle. This gives your opponent 3, bad usually, choices
- stand still, which leads to the same situation next turn
- move a very short distance sideways or back, which leads to the same situation next turn
- charge the eagle. Which still wastes a turn on killing a 50pts disposable unit where you could have done something useful and potentially takes a unit of out position.

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:25 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Rematch called off as my friend's wife just gave birth to a little baby boy!

=D>

RE.Lee wrote:
Skaven BSB.

Like!

Prince of Spires wrote:
few models in a unit.

This has a lot to do with it, even one Hexwraith is a threat to RBT and Archers.

Prince of Spires wrote:
And things like steadfast make it even worse.

Exactly and simply rank bonus.

Prince of Spires wrote:
And here you were lucky with 2 decent to good magic phases in a row at the start of the battle.

It worked out well. But the Grave Guard were in big trouble from list-writing onwards. It was just a question of when double 13th combined with Power Scroll and Warp Tokens were going to blow through the defence.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:15 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
the Grave Guard were in big trouble from list-writing onwards. It was just a question of when double 13th combined with Power Scroll and Warp Tokens were going to blow through the defence.


Thats why I'm so happy with playing with 2 Grey Seers. The magic potential was always there, but I lacked redundancy with a Seer/Warlord or BellSeer. I was one miscast away from disaster, so I had to take the Earthing Rod to play it safe, which is not how you win battles, not with Skaven at least!

With 2 Seers I have the ranged threat of Ruin as well as the sheer power of Plague if things get too hot (also Plague, the spell itself makes people nervous) and if one dies, well, he dies.

Both of you make good points about the difference in letting a single Hexwraith through against HE and Skaven. I was sad to lose the WLC but I knew that would be pretty much it as far as damage is concerned. I could bleed Slaves all 6 rounds and still come out on top.

Lack of attacks was a problem for my opponent and getting the Vargheist into combat so late was one of his major problems - this was in part due to horrific dice rolls, I must admit.

I'll pass on the congratulations! :D

Show must go on however, and I have a game against the Wood Elves arranged for tomorrow. I'll be fielding the Empire probably - any tips?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:18 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
BellSeer

This guy gives you a lot but yeah, it's harder to cut loose.

RE.Lee wrote:
if one dies, well, he dies.

The main issue is losing the General I guess but even Ld 5 on the Slaves isn't hopeless with BSB around.

RE.Lee wrote:
Lack of attacks was a problem for my opponent and getting the Vargheist into combat so late was one of his major problems - this was in part due to horrific dice rolls, I must admit.

I tend to think too much Infantry (especially vs Skaven) and not enough variety in the threat the army was bringing. A Blender Lord in Black Knights for example might be more dangerous. But the combined spell/Doomwheel assault on the Grave Guard was nicely done!

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
Show must go on however, and I have a game against the Wood Elves arranged for tomorrow. I'll be fielding the Empire probably - any tips?

Coven looks a good bet for the Magic Missiles especially. Normally I would be wary of bringing armour but your opponent comes light on the Waywatchers RE.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:11 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
I had ... to play it safe, which is not how you win battles, not with Skaven at least!

:lol: :mrgreen: =D>
RE.Lee wrote:
and if one dies, well, he dies.

True Skaven spirit right there!

SA is probably right that the VC were on the backfoot with that list right from the start of the battle. It was a list Skaven are good at dealing with.

Looking forward to the Wood Elves!

Rod

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Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:43 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I tend to think too much Infantry (especially vs Skaven) and not enough variety in the threat the army was bringing. A Blender Lord in Black Knights for example might be more dangerous.


My friend loves the wall of undead feel - he's even dropped the Blender Lord on foot to make room for Kemmler at lower point levels. Blender in a Bus would just require me to keep throwing Rat Darts at it, I guess.

Meanwhile:

We'd be playing the "3 scoring units" scenario (these are highlighted)

Empire:

Wizard Lord, level 4 Beasts, 5+ ward
BSB, +2S, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone
Wizard, level 2 Fire, dispel scroll
Warrior Priest
Captasus, Dragon Helm

40 Halberdiers, command
5 Archers in detachment
18 Handgunner, command, reapeter handgun

32 Greatswords, command, BoEFlame (these guys are S4+2, due to house rules).
3 Demigryphs, champion, halberds

Steam Tank

Wood Elves:
Level 3 Metal, Power Scroll
Level 2 Beasts, Dispel Scroll
Branchwraith

14 Eternal Guards, command
14 Glade Guards, command
14 Dryads, champion

2x7 Wild Riders, command
3 Treekin

Treeman
Eagle
6 Waywatchers

Deployment:

Image

I got: Fireball, Shards, Wildform, Savage Beast, Flock, Cure of Anraheir

My opponent got: Searing Doom, Robe, Final Trans, Amber Spear, Wildform, Earthblood

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:08 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
My friend loves the wall of undead feel - he's even dropped the Blender Lord on foot to make room for Kemmler at lower point levels.

This looks viable. The answer to Dreaded 13th is simply to sit the characters in big Core units and keep summoning. I remember an old tactics write-up by Alessio Cavatore though, where he really emphasised the need for Vampire killing power.

RE.Lee wrote:
Blender in a Bus would just require me to keep throwing Rat Darts at it, I guess.

You'd need more drops than the VC's here RE, to get these deployed in the right vicinity. Even then your opponent might be able to switch from a central deployment to either flank with his speed. He does lack shooting to pick the darts off though, he'd have to get help from magic missiles and wolves. Plague would be a threat to him and all your Rare choices.

RE.Lee wrote:
18 Handgunner, command, reapeter handgun

These have got to be useful.

RE.Lee wrote:
2x7 Wild Riders, command

Could be trouble.

RE.Lee wrote:
My opponent got: Searing Doom, Robe, Final Trans, Amber Spear, Wildform, Earthblood

Good rolling here, could have been worse. He's got the spells to have a go at the Tank.

RE.Lee wrote:
Deployment

Right flank might be an issue, if he can deal with the Demis and then double-team the Greatswords. Get the Halberdiers and Tank forward quickly to put pressure on I guess.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:54 am 
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I agree with SA that the right flank is a worry. It's where I would pressure as well. The WE player has a stronger right flank and if he can wrap around your flank he can get some powerful units in your flank / rear. Which should let him slowly roll up your battleline by giving him double or triple charges on your units.

Rod

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Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


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