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 Post subject: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:50 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
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Location: Otherworld
This is an attempt to expand on my 2000pt list, given some changes to the HE book since I played that list. More in my blog here:

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=35247&start=120

Prince, Horse Chariot, Dr/Armour, GW, Great Bow, Lucky Shield, 4+ Regen, Talis of Cenryn
Archmage, Lvl 4 White Magic, Book of Wizard Tower, 4+ Ward.
BSB, Master of Canreig Tower, Lion Fur, HA, GW, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Scroll.

25 Sea Guard, HA, FC, Flame Banner.
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
5 Lancers, FC

14 Swordmasters, FC, Dragon banner.
5 Knights of Ryma, Devastating Charge, Gleaming Pennant, Musician
3 Bolt Shooters, Repeating
Great Eagle.

Ice Phoenix.

2399 pts

Given the loss of Multiple Shots, Great Bow has become less attractive on the Prince but I'm not sure there's an obvious alternative given he rides a chariot. The Hero version of 'Loremaster' is expensive at 75pts but it looks pretty good. The BSB is chancing his arm with only a 3+ (one RR) but he has 6++ and -1 to be hit now. It looks wasteful to be giving the Dragon banner to the Swordmasters but this is a key unit. Effectively they're gaining a 5++ vs spells and going from a 6++ to a 5++ vs shooting, worth having.

All comments welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:23 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 3:24 pm
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Characters

How about giving your prince a 2+rr and a 3++ vs. magic?

Prince, Horse Chariot, Heavy Armour, GW, Great bow, Shield, Deamon Hunters helm, Dusk stone, Talis of Cenryn. (A lion chariot would be much better =))

I like the idea of a MoCT BSB but why not give him mithril mail ? It is only 8 point more than Lion Fur, HA, Dragonhelm but gives you a 2+ in combat which make him much harder in CC, especially with the luck stone. The wizard can carry the scroll anyway.

I'm not sure the kitted archmage is worth the 325 points with the current BSB as he will probably want to cast at least one spell per phase. How about making him a level 2 with just the scroll? It would save you a hefty 205 points.

Chariot unit

I think that the list is a bit low on the unit count and combat punch. It would be hilarious to have a have a unit of chariots for the prince to join and it would help with both of the mentioned problems. It would draw some fire away from the sword masters as well. I would do it like this:

Prince, Horse Chariot, Dragon Armour, Ogre Sword, Long Bow, Hardened Shield, Dusk stone, Charm of Cursed Iron. (-2)
Mage, Lvl 2 White Magic, Scroll (-205)
BSB, Master of Canreig Tower, Mithril Mail, GW, Luckstone, Talis of Cenryn. (-17)

25 Sea Guard, HA, FC, Flame Banner.
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician.
5 Lancers. (-30)

14 Swordmasters, FC, Banner of Becalming (-25)
5 Knights of Ryma, Devastating Charge (-25)
3 Horse Chariots (+185)
3 Bolt Shooters, Repeating
Great Eagle.

Ice Phoenix.

That leaves you 114 to add another unit, an additional mage or some bodies depending on your models.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:11 pm
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
regarding chumchu's ideas:

I definitely prefer Longbow to Greatbow on your Prince. Those points are just better spent elsewhere (maybe even on a Giant Sword?). Chariot unit is interesting, though perhaps one model too large. Free reform will definitely help their maneuverability (but remember that they still count as having zero ranks).

Choosing between the Level 4 and the Level 2 + Ice Phoenix is an interesting call. Depends how you see the list playing--will you spend more turns jockeying for position, with magic playing a bigger role? Or will you engage early on? I see this list as a more responsive type, where key combats may not begin until turn 4 or 5, so perhaps the level 4 is a better choice.

I don't care at all for Talisman of Cenryn on the BSB. He's as expensive as a Prince with the Honour you're taking, but on only 2 wounds and 3 attacks it doesn't seem like a smart investment.

I think I'd prefer to see the Lancers get heavy armor, rather than the Archers get a musician and light armor. I suppose it depends on whether you see the Mage spending much time in the Archer unit (and maybe you do).


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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:04 am 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
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Location: Otherworld
Thanks guys, very interesting.

I like your BSB build chumchu. It reminds me of 7th edition, where Reaver Bow/Talisman of Loec was very popular and effective. Shard of Cenryn (latest name?) is surprisingly nasty here Nicene. 3 S6 attacks may not sound awesome but at I7 he strikes before almost anyone and re-rolling everything is horrific. High Magic has a healing spell too of course. If I chose to keep the Shard on my Prince then I guess Holy Icon might be an idea here.

The knock-on effect of course is the loss of the Book, which just takes the edge off my magic phase. I can see the logic behind cutting the Archmage down to level 2. The main issue is spell selection, I go from a 90% chance of getting the spell I want to a 40%. I'm also not mad about downsizing from six spells to four. Defensively though it's fine and again it reminds me of the 'medium' magic phase I used to run in 7th.

The chariot unit (and Lion Chariot!) are interesting but too far from my army concept really. In general the 5++ Swordmasters should be OK because my faster and shootier elements will probably be targeted first in a board control war. The only upgrade on the Archers is Musician (they now come with light armour) which I feel is necessary. At a pinch I can bunker a character there but it can be risky if the enemy is strong at range.

The Chariot Prince is complex. I feel a Ward or Regen save is necessary because of War Machines, primarily cannon. I spend 50pts on that. Lucky Shield is a good idea because even a 4++ is not all that. Then we get the Shard because a 4++ character can't grind indefinitely, so you want the option to kill things fast. That pretty much only leaves the Magic Weapon slot, hence the Great Bow. One shot sounds awful but it hits on a 2 with S5 AP, so can be helpful.

Chumchu's second build is interesting because the 5++ from the Charm may be workable. I believe Lucky Shield is necessary because of cannon. This pushes me towards Lion Fur because in combat I definitely want 2+ RR instead of 3+ RR. I lose the 2++ vs Flaming war machines but the armour and Ogre Sword enable grinding, so I can live without the Shard.

Food for thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:27 am 
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Lion Fur is model on foot only.


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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Green Istari

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That's a blow!

Several of the upgrades I'd like on my Prince are foot-only. In particular now the multi-shot Honour, though other Honours look attractive (I don't think he can take any). While I understand the desire to encourage foot characters, I'm not sure these would be overpowered on a chariot-rider.

I'm toying with the idea of trying a skirmishing unit of White Lions because I feel the extra flexibility might breathe some life into a small unit of them. That would probably mean downsizing to the 'medium' magic phase and I'm pondering just how I'd prefer to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Something Cool

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
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So with v0.11 I was expecting an epic lion lord prince on the back of a lion chariot... with three lion chariots and 9 reaver chariots in 3x3 in special.


Where is it?!?!

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:08 pm 
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Green Istari

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Malossar wrote:
Where is it?!?!

There can be only one...

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:30 am 
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Malossar wrote:
So with v0.11 I was expecting an epic lion lord prince on the back of a lion chariot... with three lion chariots and 9 reaver chariots in 3x3 in special. Where is it?!?!


Here is my suggestion for such a list. The centerpiece is the chariot unit with a front row of characters for maximum sillyness and wound denial:

Lords 593.

Prince, Lion Chariot, Dragon Scale Helm, Shield, Dusk Stone, Giant sword, 323.

L. 4 Archmage, Life, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll. 270.

Heroes 452

Commander, Lion Chariot, Shield, Kingslayer, Shard, 222.

Commander, BSB, Lion Chariot, Hardened Shield, Flaming Lance, Charm of Cursed iron. 230

Core 650

5 Reavers 85
bows

5 Reavers 85
bows

10 Helms 240
2+, Musician, Standard

10 Helms 240
2+, Musician, Standard

Special 605

3 Reaver chariots 185

Lion chariot 90

Lion chariot 90

Lion chariot 90

Reaper 75

Reaper 75

Rare 200

Frost phoenix 200

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:12 am 
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I would love to see it on the battlefield. However I need to check carefully the chariot charactes rules to judge propely power of your list :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:42 am 
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Characters can't be used for wound denial anymore (you can always just attack R&F models even if they're not in base contact). But I can't see SpellArcher going for anything that beardy anyway =]


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 Post subject: Re: Chariot Prince 2400
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:15 am 
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Green Istari

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Nicene wrote:
But I can't see SpellArcher going for anything that beardy anyway =]

Well, not if I can't get away with it Nicene!

:)

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