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 Post subject: Re: Path To Glory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:54 pm 
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Flamespyres are nowhere near Frosthearts in terms of sheer power, however quite a few lists are better to face with a Flamespyre because T3 S3 doesn't care if you're S/T 5 or 6 and Wake of Fire allows you to do tremendous amounts of damage vs lots of units while you are setting up (doubly so with high magic because walk effectively becomes a magic missile on top of its already quite impressive effect).

Remember that WL and SM are by and large the same, as long as you don't need stubborn nor survivability vs shooting. As such, BOTWD-armed SM with magic support and a Frostheart hit like a ton of bricks just like WL so I can see what you're saying here ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Path To Glory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:22 pm 
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I remember you stressing this to me in my WE thread, the huge difference World Dragon makes to a Swordmaster block. I really needed to try this to see just how right you were Curu. Without the Banner my unit would have been toast in at least three games, even with Shield of Saphery. With it (and the Frostheart) it often walked through half the opponent's army, while the rest of my units looked on and applauded.

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 Post subject: Re: Path To Glory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:47 pm 
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I'm glad to see the investment paid off!

Often times it takes but a simple game or two to realize how things play out on the actual tabletop. Even experienced and skilled players frequently theoryhammer a matchup wrong.

As for the "rest of the units looking on and applauding" - this is often the case for me as well, but typically they have been crucial to setting up the context from which my WL + Frost can actually do their thing. Typically the RBTs and Archers provide the board control needed and can also relatively effectively act as blockers (the static from the Archers keep aggressive units on their toes - I've beaten Dragonlords with these guys!).

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 Post subject: Re: Path To Glory
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:21 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Even experienced and skilled players frequently theoryhammer a matchup wrong.

I've seen Furion say this a lot.

Yeah, your list has a solid shooting phase Curu and crucially, the power to force a spell through when it matters, which is something I've been missing since the demise of Banner of Sorcery.

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 Post subject: Re: Path To Glory
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:09 am 
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Time for another report! This was my first tournament game with the ETC Coven list, a grudge match against a DoC player.


.::. Battle Report - Crusade #1 - vs Daemons of Chaos .::.

Lister:

Quote:
Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Anti-Heroes, 330
Archmage: Level 4, Lore of Light, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 255
Mage: Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 110
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 140

27 Archers: FCG, 300
5 Ellyrian Reavers: 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Champion, Standard Bearer, 135

28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 444

4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Army Total: 2399


Quote:
Guo L4 Nurgle
Nurgle BSB Regen
Tzeentch Herald, L2 TZ

2x 10 Horrors
Plaguebearersblock

8 Blight Kings, Razor

5 Plague Drones: FCG, Poison, Lichebone
1 Skullcannon


Pre-Battle Thoughts

GUO with Nurgle has an interesting effect for DoC: They suddenly gain access to magic that is really game changing once combat begins. Doubly so with Blight Kings who are already a big issue for me. Additionally the 4 levels of Tzeentch magic will make things difficult early on for stuff like pushing Frost and Reavers roaming. The big Drones zone the bolters so I can't deploy them as effectively as I'd like to.

To gain a shot here I need to accomplish one of two things: BKs isolated or WL free path to drones/guo/backline.

Image

Image

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DoC open passively and I go for charge-reavers-flee bait. Skullcannon picks a bolter. DoC first magic phase is box cars and I suddenly have +13 Plaguebearers worth the grand total of 0VP on my right flank, ready to steamroll some bolters. In my turn I turn Archers towards Plaguebearers and Frost to where neither PBs nor Drones can see them (Plague Drones were on the hill, the picture is a little off cuz we had to move them to get vision of stuff). A little early to commit, but I felt I had to apply pressure so PBs and BKs can't catch me in a vice-like grip.

Image

Plaguebearers into bolter with a huge overrun which brings them into Archers. Drones move up in support and Frost takes 3W from IF Gateway. Skillcannon misfires.

Image

Frost into cannon: My opponent made a mistake with the block because I could touch a corner and he could align to me without hitting his own Horrors. Frost overruns off the table. I should perhaps have considered holding it there seeing as the GUO would risk a lot with a charge. Regardless the bird is at 1W so survival chances are minimal.

Archers kill PBs and reform towards the center.

Image

Drones and BKs on a line, 22" away roughly. PB zone Frost.

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Timewarp goes off on WL. Frost lets Guo gets a charge: His price is running into the open and thus risk Banishment. I got Banishment through T1 or something due to reform shenanigans but it only took 1W off of him.

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GUO kills Frost. PBs get behind Horrors and I have a pretty insane option: Into Horrors (16" away) => Overrun into PBs? Yes please!

Image

...but I fail the 6+ and am stranded in the middle. Insult to injury; Banishment roll is crap and dispelled. Bolters do nothing to GUO.

Image¨

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Drones eat Reavers and move up. I reform Archers for max. ranks and WL protect. If he goes in, chances are I live and he dies.

Image

Drones dodge. I do not manage to get one model from them for half points with magic and shooting.

I have the Skullcannon while DoC have various chaff + Frost. 8-12 loss for High Elves.

// Evaluation //

This was a game where I felt I managed next to nothing. It was close lots of times, but when coin tosses continually went against me this game became real hard real fast. Examples include T1 Reavers in front of BKs, I get off Miasma and flee. While I don't run off the table, he needs 8+ to catch me which he gets. This catapults them ahead a lot and when they manage their reform as well my whole plan is ruined. This results in me having to continuously prioritize miasma on the BKs. I had X+1 magic phases throughout the game which made it very hard to force stuff like Banishment/Timewarp through, especially since I had to get Miasma on BKs. Banishment only got through once and it did 1W.

All things considered, I still think my game here was solid. True, I was one bolter away from a 13-7 loss, but I'm also 1 Drone away from 11-9 and 2 Drones away from 10-10. The only real
threat to HE in such a matchup is BKs reaching WL. That takes a lot and even then I can still win.

The Frost should've held after taking out Cannon. The Power Stone should possibly have been spent earlier to ensure Timewarp on WL. I should perhaps also simply have marched them up once I had Timewarp: The Horrors had nowhere to hide anyway and I believe this would've given me PBs as well. DoC were really crammed together here.

My opponent delivers a solid game. Apart from allowing me the 16+ charge and the frost-into-cannon he gave me very little to exploit. He continuously gave me multi-faceted threats to deal with and I had to work really hard to prevent him from gaining access to my weaker elements and easy points.

At the end of the day, BKs completely change this matchup but it's still clearly in HE favour. To that end my opponent played well and got a deserved victory which I congratulated him on. Dice are dice and as some of the later games of this tournament will show they most definitely swing both ways ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Path To Glory
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:27 am 
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For game 2 I drew Skaven. Skaven are never easy and truth be told I expected a softer list given my poor start. Scenario was meeting engagement and I had to deploy first. I had a difficult decision to make: Do I go aggro to mind-trick him to go deep (bellstar + stormfiends into WL => game over) or do I go deep myself to avoid a push I can't hold against? I decided for the first...


.::. Battle Report - Crusade #2 - vs Skaven .::.

Lister:

Quote:
Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Anti-Heroes, 330
Archmage: Level 4, Lore of Light, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 255
Mage: Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 110
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 140

27 Archers: FCG, 300
5 Ellyrian Reavers: 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Champion, Standard Bearer, 135

28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 444

4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Army Total: 2399


Quote:
Greyseer, Skalm, Power Scroll, Fencer's Blades
BSB
Assassin, Potion of S, Weeping Blades
L2 Scroll
L1 Doomrocket

3x 40 Slaves
Stormverminblock

8 Gutters, Poison

HPA
3 Combatfiends
WLC


Pre-Battle Thoughts

My opponent decided to deploy deep and I breathed a sigh of relief. I'm relatively safe knowing from our positions that I have the time, place and employment of firepower to delay the inevitable clashes that will determine a big swing. I have 3 goals defensively: WL constantly on Fiendsmarker, keep Reavers alive at all costs, kill WLC & HPA. Let Skaven push and systematically kill off enough to force my opponent to feel that he has to commit to an unfavourable fight.

Image

Image

Image

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Storm Banner goes up immediately which leaves the Frost fairly slow. I apply pressure on WLC asap and it goes down T2. Its one shot does nothing. SK focusing on Archers is a relief to me as I see them as dead weight here in 9/10 games anyway and it allows my Reavers to operate with impunity. Frost runs wide on one side in my T2 as Storm Banner wore off and Helmdart runs on the other. I summon Vargheists with Loremaster's Ryze which can really munch away at Slaves and my shooting picks off Stormvermin from the Bell.

Image

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I block out HPA with Reavers so Vargheists can tear into Slaves alone. Helmdart kills the other unit and Frost moves towards the Bell. My opponent however, sneaky as a Skaven, had Assassin in Slaves (which in my opinion is a huge mistake as revealing this allows my Frost to engage Stormvermin). Anyway, this spelt doom for my Vargheists. Stormfiends roll misfire and don't arrive.

Image

Assassin + Slaves in return vs Frost actually kills it off. I think it was a break test. Didn't expect that. HPA goes down to fire missile + power stone banishment. Fiends enter => into WL => Naval Discipline => Lose a few => kill them all. WL are now reformed, with Timewarp, before my next turn. Game is starting to look really good! Thus, it looks like this prior to endgame:

Image

Image

Slaves turn around.

Image

Reavers enter and kill the few Stormvermin that are left. I can't nail the BSB, much to my dismay. WL kills Slaves + Assassin. In the very last turn of the game Slaves charge my WL flank. I win, the flank unit holds. Reavers again fail to nail the BSB and die to return attacks (the opposite scenario would see a 2BP swing and with the BSB having 1W I saw it as fairly likely).

Skaven have lost significant chunks and although I've lost a bit myself (Archers, Frost, Vargheists) I'm clearly up. I'm positively surprised that the resulting score is 15-5 to High Elves!

// Evaluation //

I get a lot of time to prioritize shooting and magic uninterrupted here. Gutters arrive T3 and at that point in time I've shot 72 multi-bolts on Stormvermin and this really does make a difference. Frostheart also kill quite a few before it breaks and gets run down. This is just enough to allow Reavers to kill them off, giving me some important points and nearly making the game a 17-3 massacre.

Skaven focus on Archers and this allows me to stop Howling Warpgale, which keeps my shooting potent without having to worry about keeping Reavers alive. In return my magic really hurts this game and Book of Hoeth allowing me to 1-dice like 3 spells, 2 of which are disastrous for his HPA, gives him a ton of tough decisions. Suddenly the Power Stone + Banishment combo gets through and something important goes down.

I felt I was in control throughout the game and for a change the Skaven toys didn't really feel like a big pain, but then again I was able to engage his things piecemeal and isolated. Had his Slaves pinned me down it would probably have been another story entirely. 15-5 vs Skaven is a result I am very happy with.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:04 am 
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The first 2 games were against well-known members from my club. For my third game however I met a Danish fella which recently moved to Norway. A really sporting opponent and, while his list had the usual suspects, it wasn't the min-maxed madness I'm used to. However with double Banishment and multiple cannonballs I'm not far from being without any rare choices left alive which leaves me with pitifully few options.


.::. Battle Report - Crusade #3 - vs Empire .::.

Lister:

Quote:
Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Anti-Heroes, 330
Archmage: Level 4, Lore of Light, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 255
Mage: Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 110
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 140

27 Archers: FCG, 300
5 Ellyrian Reavers: 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Champion, Standard Bearer, 135

28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 444

4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Army Total: 2399


Quote:
L4 Light
Archlector: 1+ Armour, 4++
L1 Light, Scroll
BSB
Engineer

10 IC Knights
40 (?) Halberdiers, FCG
18 Handgunners

3 Demigryphs
2 Great Cannons

1 Steam Tank
1 HBVG


Pre-Battle Thoughts

The Scenario was King of the Hill. I have to try and neutralize his backline to be able to play freely. As always, the STank needs to be dealt with. If Halberds engage me before this is accomplished, Light buffs can make my life impossible.

In deployment my opponent makes a mistake as opens up both flanks. This gives my edge-deployed cavalry the ability to pressure him very fast from positions he'll be hard-pressed to deal with.

Also, my Archers are 24.2" away from his HBVG...

Image

Despite his +1 I grab T1.

Image

Frost flies to cover. No cannons can see me. Reavers congaline on right flank to get within 16" off a cannon if he doesn't respond. WL move to bring Loremaster within 24" of stank while being outside of 24" from the HBVG. I open with L3 Ryze seeing as we've got Ruins as these bad-boys create a huge issue for him given his position. I want him to dispel so I can target the Stank and stuff but unfortunately he lets it go (!). Miasma stopped on dice and boosted Searing Doom is scrolled. Bolters do 3W to Stank! Good start.

Image

Knights protect cannon. Demies back. STank moves up D6 => 6". Halberdiers hesitate. Magic: I intend to scroll to allow Vargheists to go berserk. No such luck: IF from Waltar and Vargheists are bye-bye. An RBT or two are killed as well.

Image

My thinking now is that there's no rush yet. I can spend a turn to further set up threats and let magic work for me with the scroll out. At the same time my Archers are in a dominating position. I can't remember what I accomplished this turn so it was likely fairly little.

Image

Waltar takes over Reaver duty while Knights run towards my flank. Nothing exciting happens.

Image

Frost up, Reavers up, Helms support. The idea is to blast apart Handgunners and get L4 as well. This works very well: With Book of Hoeth Missiles they all go down when my shooting phase is over.

Image

Grapeshot clears all (!) Reavers on right flank. Demies back, STank up. Infantry starts moving.

Image

Reavers up central. SHelms vs cannon and Frost into Demies. WL takes STank while L1 chaffs Knights. Magic-wise I get off Wyssan's on WL. Frost wins, Demies hold.

Image

STank survives on 1W. Annoying. Mage blows scroll and dies to Knights. Cannons target Helms to no avail. Demis break.

Image

I know that to get a cap I have to kill Halbs. I also -have- to hold the point. 30 Zombies is a nice solution to said problem and allows both frost and wl to focus on infantry after Reavers charge-flee the Demis off the table, which panics the last cannon.

Image

He charges Archers with Halbs, I run off the table leaving them stranded. In my T6 everything goes into Halbs and Zombies take the point. He's left with Waltar and Knights but I've lost enough along the way to make it a 17-3 to High Elves!

// Evaluation //

I am able to attack from so many angles with so many threats while my shooting and magic do a lot as well. He's just continuously losing more than me. Empire never gain control of the table, largely due to a way over-dispered deployment, and I can focus what I want, when I want.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Thanks for those Curu.

I often find Daemon games feature luck swings. Reign obviously did you no favours here but the cannon misfiring helped. Then again you failed that makeable Lion charge. How much of an issue do you feel Blight King-heavy lists are, considering you can probably force through buffs on the Lions (he has no scroll of course)?

In the Empire game you seemed to neutralise the cannon, after which you can chip away at him, as you say. The difference between the 24" of a Volley Gun and the 30" of an Organ is a big one.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:34 pm 
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As the next game will show: Typical DoC armies struggle a lot vs High Elves when Blight Kings are not present.

The cannon misfiring is good, no doubt, but for the cannon to actually kill the Frost a lot of things have to go right (i.e. hitting it, wounding it, passing the ward etc) and bearing in mind he got IF to bring it down in the first place to a few wounds I don't see my move overall as too big of a risk.

Blight King heavy lists are insanely strong for DoC vs HE (and others!). They solve a number of problems that DoC typically have: BOTWD, heavy armour and characters that are really tough and/or killy. The problem in this particular game is that I don't want to charge the BKs because my character placement will most likely be suboptimal so I risk losing for example both the BSB and the L4 at which point it's almost irrelevant if I kill them or not because the rest of the game is super risky for me with my magic having little bite. There's also the risk of leaving my backline unprotected: If I go for them the Plaguebearers and Drones can pick up a ton of points in Archers and RBTs. Lastly I do risk being chaffed out and/or failing to engage them favourably. If Blight Kings charge me, Naval Discipline helps minimize the potential character maximization but in that case I don't get to cast magic.

I've had many games vs BKs in the shape of both WoC, DoC and BM. Usually getting a charge off on them is worth it because the buffs typically keep the characters alive (also the Crown of Atrazar is vital here). The main problem is the BSB, he's gone down quite a few times to situations like this. Being without re-rolls, LD10 and Naval Discipline is a real pain. The main problem is that going for the BKs with WLs typically opens up the rest of your army to whatever else is opposite you on the table (in this game the Drones were the biggest problem).

The Empire game was a game where I felt I had an advantage all along. I won deployment and I out-manoevred him in the start of the game. On top of that I got lucky: Grabbing T1 and losing next to nothing when his cannons did get to shoot sets me up really well.

I find HBVGs to be best in a position it's very hard to attack. For example if he'd place it on the extreme table edge here with Demis in front he could've marched the Demis up if my Archers had tried to snipe it as I did here. Then again, deployed like that it's fairly easy to dodge (hence the need for most Empire armies to sport enough artillery and magic to force an opponent forwards).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:22 pm 
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Day 2 opened with another round vs Daemons. My opponent was fielding a Lord of Change, but perhaps most crucially, his army had no Blight Kings! Furthermore we were playing Blood and Glory - perfect for getting right down to it!


.::. Battle Report - Crusade #4 - vs Daemons of Chaos .::.

Lister:

Quote:
Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Anti-Heroes, 330
Archmage: Level 4, Lore of Light, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 255
Mage: Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 110
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 140

27 Archers: FCG, 300
5 Ellyrian Reavers: 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Champion, Standard Bearer, 135

28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 444

4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Army Total: 2399


Quote:
LoC L4 TZ, 2x Greater
Nurgle Herald BSB Regen
TZ Herald L2 Metal

2x 10 Horrors
Plaguebearers

2x 1 Beast of Nurgle
3 Screamers
5 Furies, Mark of Tzeentch

Skullcannon
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
4 Plague Drones: Banner, Lichebone Pennant, Poison


Pre-Battle Thoughts

In this setting my Lions are only afraid of one thing: Final Trans. My opponent does roll the spell and as such, my choice is easy: Charge! The sooner I can engage him, the better. Given that you can't deploy near the table sides in Blood and Glory I was intending for my Archers to shuffle towards one of the flanks, with the WL advancing in front it would thus be very hard for my opponent to reach them. I opted to place the bolters on the other flank to cover the LoC's possible advances.

Image

My opponent makes a mistake as he commits his Screamers too early on the edge of his deployment. I place the Frost directly opposite them and get T1...

Image

Charge! Frost into Screamers: Bang! WL move up, I get off Timewarp. Archers out on the flank with Reavers, as planned. Frost kills 1 screamer for 1W in return. They hold.

Image

Single Beast blocks WL. The rest of the DoC forces are unsure of what to do and end up just shuffling around. This is perfect for me as it creates opportunities. What's not perfect however is the IF Final Trans going off. 12 Lions die. Screamers die in combat and Frost reforms towards Herald + Horrors. If I can rid him off final trans I'll gladly take that opportunity.

Image

Frost into Horrors, WL into beast, weak flank protected. Magic: Timewarp off again. Shooting: I'm lucky as I blow his Burning Chariot off the table!

Image

Furies block WL. I scroll FT. Frost kills Herald and reforms vs cannon.

Image

Frost into cannon, WL reform to move 10" around the furies (which I shoot down) and the Birdlord takes a Banishment to the face which takes it down a couple of wounds.

Image

My opponent decides that it's time to go for the desperate push: Birdlord + flies move up, Plaguebearers toward the center. Bolt of Change does nothing to an RBT and I stop Gateway on dice.

Image

The 2nd Banishment kills the birdie. Bolters take a few wounds off of the flies.

Image

He fails a charge, I kill flies with magic and shooting. Plaguebearers are isolated in the center. I kill the BSB with Spirit Leech and the rest are worn down before T6 is over.

I've lost 0VP and the Daemons are table. The final round of Winds does nothing. 20-0 to High Elves!

// Evaluation //

In this game I got a couple of huge openings early on. The Frost being allowed to go berserk and blockers being dedicated T1 vs WL help me out a lot here. The one highlight DoC had was the IF FT T1, but in the end it didn't matter.

When DoC hesitate and there is no threat moving towards my backline I find that this matchup is easy to play. In this game I likely would've won big anyway, but clumping up together is usually the worst way DoC can play: Part of their brokenness is being able to split up as much as they want and not worry about panic etc. Units with big footprints, flies in particular but also Plaguebearers, also enjoy more space to really capitalize on their threat projection (see Crusade #1 for examples of this).

Lastly the combination of facing Timewarp + Banishment every single turn is just disastrous for DoC. Also bear in mind that I keep the Power Stone so that if he stops one I can always force the other. Furthermore the Power Stone allows the Loremaster to use a good chunk of the dice if I need other spells through which DoC really can't deal with from fear of a single dice left being turned into a 3PD-cast of Banishment.

The key to playing vs HE without BKs for DoC is to pressure the entire table. This forces the BOTWD-star to make a choice: Defend the weaker elements or go for points? Typically, a good DoC player can pick up small points even if the BOTWD-star stays defensive (with for example single beasts, blue fire or skillcannon) but more importantly they can typically neutralize a push with chaff as well. In this game my opponent failed to do either and that's when BOTWD-HE, with Light Magic certainly not making things easier, just steamroll DoC.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:02 pm 
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The last game of the tournament and before the game I'm leading by 1 point. The field is very tight though (largely due to a 16-4 cap we are house-ruling so no-one can pull away too much) and 2 players trail me by 1 point. One of them I get to face on table 1, the other plays on table 2. Our table features my Coven of Light vs Warriors of Chaos and on table 2 we have an all-out balls-to-the wall HE list that's performed well all weekend with double Frosthearts, Helmbus w/BSB and Eltharion. An all-in list that's gotten T1 most games and survived most punch being thrown at him that one turn before his charge crashes home. Now what happened was that before we were done with T1 on our table, table 2 was over: HE got T1 again, sent everything up and the Dwarf T1 did absolutely nothing as the HE general rolled ward saves as though he were a DoC player. Thus, I had to cap my opponent to win the tournament.


.::. Battle Report - Crusade #5 - vs Warriors of Chaos .::.

Lister:

Quote:
Loremaster of Hoeth: General, Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Anti-Heroes, 330
Archmage: Level 4, Lore of Light, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 255
Mage: Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 110
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 140

27 Archers: FCG, 300
5 Ellyrian Reavers: 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Champion, Standard Bearer, 135

28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 444

4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Army Total: 2399


Quote:
Chaos Lord: Disc, Flaming Breath, Great Weapon, 3++ (3+ AS combat), Crown of Command
Daemon Prince: L5 Slaanesh, Charmed, Dragonbane Gem, Soul Feeder
BSB: Daemonic, GW, 4++ (2+ AS combat)

18 Warriors of TZ: Halberd, +1M
2x 1 Slaanesh Wagon

1 Chimera: Breath, Regen

4 Crushers: Banner, Muso, Discipline, Ensorcelled


Pre-Battle Thoughts

There are relatively few threats here. Deployment sees him commit quickly and I should be able to handle one threat at a time seeing as he has few/no answers to chaff. RBTs zone well and in addition the map is pretty open. The scenario is Battleline so I feel I have a very good starting point.

Image

Crushers on my strong flank, Warriors opposite (which I chose because I wanted time to deal with the other elements before the Warriors could reach anything important). DP + Lord in cover with the Chimera. WoC get T1.

Image

Frenzy check passed. Magic does nothing.

Image

I send WL and mages within 24" of his Lord. Both Searing Doom and Banishment are interesting here. I can't see the DP regardless of what I do. The magic phase is tricky, 7v6, and I opt for Miasma - Timewarp - Banishment (remember, I have to basically table him). Does he dare letting timewarp go? He has no scroll so that's a big deal. Timewarp goes off on IF however and the result is a Dimensional Cascade... Luckily I survive! Miasma had taken off 3M from the Warriors. Perfect start although my shooting is ineffective T1.

Image

Chimera commits alone. Crushers try and dance around with the Frost. Characters in cover. Warriors inch ahead. Wagon fails charge on WL. Breath Weapon takes out a handful of WL. I scroll Aquiescence. The plan was to run up and Banish the DP next round.

Image

So I decide to do so. I hope 4 bolters and 27 Archers is enough to deal with the Chimera.

The magic phase opens and it's not a good split: He gets 5 dice. I open with Spirit Leech on the DP which I win big and the DP takes 3W after saves (!). Taking out the DP is absolutely crucial because another round of random movement can really ruin my day. The ensuing 5d6 Banishment is a real nailbiter as we have to count casting and dispelling total twice to be sure - he barely made it, much to my dismay. I finish off with a desperate Iceshard Blizzard on the DP... Which somehow puts 2W through his armour!! Having played DoC extensively however my opponent makes both the 5++ required to keep him alive. Needless to say, that was one insane magic phase!

When all my shooting does but a single wound to the Chimera I can see things unraveling real fast.

Image

2 wagons, the Chaos Lord, the Warriors and the BSB move in towards the White Lions. Reavers and Frost are out of position. Eh... Daemon Prince runs away and gets off IF Aquiescence on White Lions. For his problems he dies to the resulting S10 miscast, but I fear it's too late. Archers do 1W to the Chimera in combat and break despite being steadfast, LD8 after all is not all that. Chimera overruns into Bolter.

Image

I set up Reavers so I can flee from the Lord's charge. I was sure the chimera was frenzied and had to overrun off the table: Thus the WL could've fled the Lord, slingshot around the Reavers and rally behind. Seeing as the Chimera isn't frenzy however, this doesn't work because it can eat the fleeing WL easily.

The magic phase is at least doable and the power stone ensures that I throw a number of spells which he just *has* to stop. This allows me to get off Ryze which I use to summon TK Warriors to block out Warriors + chariot (phew!). This allows the WL to face just the Lord and one Chariot for the first round and perhaps my frost can even make it in time. Hopefully this can work. Helms also run up to support and I move the Reavers in for support.

The shooting phase is really exciting: I pump 4 single bolts onto the Lord... One sneaks past his ward and again we have a monumental roll. It comes up a '1' however and the game is still very much alive.


Image

Skellywarriors get charged and hold. Lord into WL which I have to hold - at least I have Speed of Light. Wagon into WL as well. Naval Discipline allows me to setup perfectly, I maximise attacks on the wagon and try my best to keep characters safe. My idea is to feed the Chaos Lord a champ, then an L1 etc until I get off Wyssans at which point I'll maximise WL on him (remember, a bolter took a wound off of him). Chimera into Reavers who run.

As combat begins, I catch a lucky break: The Lord kills the Champ but the Wagon fluffs completely and I kill it. This, combined with Naval Discipline turning rear => front and giving me ranks, ensures that I actually win combat. The Chaos Lord fails his LD9 re-roll break test and to add insult to injury I catch him -and- I am in a perfect spot to charge his BSB + Warriors!

Image

I choose to not go into Warriors because my position forces me to allocate a lot to his BSB. This means risking a lot of my characters. I'd rather kill Warriors (which die in droves to magically-assisted White Lions) so instead I hold and bide my time. Banishment kills 6 Warriors and the Frost blocks the last wagon. Prior to Banishment I did get a few buffs off though so if he charges Naval Discipline ensures that WL will totally destroy his Warriors.

Image

My opponent feels he has nothing to lose and goes for the WL anyway. The Crushers make their box cars charge on the Frostheart as well but to no avail: The Frost is too strong and holds due to LD10 re-roll. Naval Discipline lets me optimize attacks on Warriors and they all die. BSB needs to take a break test on snake eyes which he fails. I reform vs Crushers.

Image

WL and SH into the last combat and I win big. Both WoC units break: Both are caught!

Chimera is left T6 with 1W but it doesn't matter: I've wiped everything else as well as various bonuses and in return my losses are negligible. 20-0 to High Elves!

// Evaluation //

Wow! My first single tournaments win! I must admit I'm very happy with this as this has been one of my main goal for years. Furthermore I view Crusade as one of our best tournaments so taking this one home feels extra good (for those of you who've followed me for a long time might remember, Crusade 2012 was my first major tournament).

Onto the game: I started off extremely well. I had absolute control of the game and tempo, but T2 I made a gamble due to the situation on the table beneath us. In hindsight I believe this was an unnecessary and poor gamble due to a number of reasons. Most importantly the decision to go for the DP was flawed because by holding my ground I could've killed the Chimera (LD5 was Spirit Leech as well as my missiles) and spent more time setting up the Frost etc. Thus, wasting the scroll this early was questionable at best.

True, I had a number of follow-up points that could've turned the game such as the single bolt hitting the Lord, but remember also that the DP took 4 wounds from Spirit Leech, Iceshard Blizzard and a single miscast. That's a lot. Part of why I made the gamble is also because I failed to assess how much power he could bring to bear against the aggressive WL. The Breath weapon from the lord (which I was sure was magical) and the Breath weapon from the chimera took out significant amounts of WL and this changes the odds a lot. Full-sized WL with my magic will just munch just about everything WoC can throw at me (as a later report will demonstrate) but half-size is a totally different story.

In the end I feel 2 things took this home for me: Deployment and magic priorities. Despite going super-aggressive T2 my deployment ensured that I had some support when I needed it and the rest of the army continued to contribute throughout the game. Furthermore the chimera going into my backlines ended up getting too far away from the action: Had it moved towards the WL with the Lord I would've been tabled. Likewise magic priorities gave me some really crucial effects, most notable the Ryze which blocked out his devastating assault and allowed me to single out the lord.

Lastly Naval Discipline was absolutely brutal here. It is such a game changing ability I don't see myself ever leaving home without a Lothern Sea Helm again in a setting where I'm playing a WL-star.

Tournament evaluation coming!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:11 am 
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Congratulations again Curu. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the reports. Great job!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:36 pm 
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=D> congrats!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:05 pm 
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Where players aren't used to playing certain scenarios it can really cost them. That early Phoenix charge on the Screamers looks like pure inexperience. I've noticed time and again with infantry lists you keeping the Archers safe on a flank Curu, this seems like a high deployment priority. Once again, I really feel lack of Scroll hurts Daemons, if they could take one they would be horrific. Totally agree with the spreading out point, both my recent wins vs Daemons have come because my opponent wasn't ambitious enough with his fast elements.

As for the WoC game, isolating the Warriors early looks very sensible. Again, I don't rate Familiar instead of scroll, it's just nowhere near as good. The Lions combat does sound lucky but you take it and move on. Another good game for the Frostheart. In general he picks his fights, he either grinds his opponent or holds and passes his break tests, he is just awesome. I've noticed opponents going for my RBT's (as with the Chimaera here) instead of heading for the bigger combats, usually a mistake I feel. With the foot characters Naval Discipline does indeed look awesome.

Well played sir!

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:06 pm 
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You point eared ..... erhhh high elf thieve, you stole my title from druchii.net and the TWHF.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:27 pm 
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I am sorry but I cannot see the pictures. Does anybody else has the same problem?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:02 pm 
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No SM, can see fine.

Am browsing on a tablet using Chrome if that makes any difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:25 pm 
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@gaz - Thanks :) Glad to know these are still appreciated since it is my understanding that whfb is rarely played any more. Considering these reports are months old (this particular tournament was held in April) feedback like this motivates me to keep translating them from Norwegian and publishing them here :)

@sparkytrypod - Thank you mate :)

@SpellArcher - Exactly. Practicing scenarios and understanding their importance is absolutely vital. I nearly avoided a disaster in England when I played in Sheffield Slaughter due to my lack of scenario practice prior to the tournament. Crusade game 4 really highlights how bad this can be for you if your opponent (in this case, me) manages to capitalize on that.

The lack of Scroll was to be honest not that big of a deal in this particular game: It was just so disastrous that for DoC to stop one spell would probably not have mattered too much. With that said, DoC being as ridiculously strong as they are in the first place, I am glad they don´t have one.

As for the Archer deployment, this list basically revolves around 3 semi-static elements: Archers, Lions, RBTs. If you do not have a clear-cut goal for how these elements will operate relative to one-another on both a strategic and a tactical level you will be in for a world of hurt. In many games I find that to achieve a solid backline (i.e. one that is difficult to attack while still providing value to me) the Lions need to be more centrally deployed than Archers. You might notice that in games 1, 2 and 3 I did the opposite: The Archers anchor the line instead of the WL which are instead placed on a flank to (hopefully) sweep the table. In game 1 this failed as the WL ended up being too static and I had to protect the Archers a lot (thus rendering the flank-positioned WL ineffective and immobile) due to the combo-threat of Plague Drones and Blight Kings. In game 2 it worked wonders because my opponent, granted given an inferior deployment, had no way to ignore the WL and go for the soft center. In game 3 it worked well: The Archers had a dominating position from which they took out the Empire center (true, they fled the table in the end but this was a tactical move designed to give me his bunker with minimal risk, something I managed). In my experience with this list so far, the specific situation determines which pattern is the most useful one and it is usually a combination of both faction, specific opponent list and scenario. A small part of the reason why I opted for 2 smaller units of Archers was to increase my deployment flexibility, by the way.

The Frostheart I have just found to be game breaking in so many battles. Sometimes it gets shot off by a cannonball like T1 or T2, other games it just breaks the opponent on its own and makes me wonder how on Earth it can be priced at only 240 points. I can understand Dennis´ choice to go for 2 of these bad boys at the ETC this year (other than that our lists are largely identical - after all this is his design) and I´m really looking forward to hearing his experiences with the lack of RBTs in favour of double bird.

@KillerK - My apologies, I assure you it is purely a coincident :) It is a fairly general term so I was suspecting this to come up at some point ;)

@Swordmaster of Hoeth - I have accessed this blog on multiple devices lately without any problems. Which reports do you find to be lacking pictures? Any in particular or all of them? Could you perhaps screenshot and upload what it looks like?

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All the reports on this page don't show the pictures. Instead of a picture I get a grey box with the following message:

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The image you are requesting is temporarily unavailable due to daily hot-linking limits. Please link to gallery url or wait.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:48 pm 
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I have the problem on my phone, but not on my computer. I get the same message as SM. The pictures works in other blog. Fortunatly it works on my computer.
/Riismanden


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:29 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
it is my understanding that whfb is rarely played any more.

It's alive and kicking in England at least Curu.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:21 pm 
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@Swordmaster of Hoeth - I tried googling the issue and reading up on minus' things but unfortunately I don't know what causes this. Issues like this was why I moved away from photobucket to minus in the first place, so annoying to have it reappear now. I unfortunately don't have a solution for the problem apart from changing hosting site again. If the problem persists I'll have to look into that. Have you experienced this before or is this a first for you when reading my posts containing pictures?

@Dragon fire - I'm sorry to hear that. I really don't know what this is.

@SpellArcher - I heard you'll hold a few more 8th tournaments but I think England's one of the few countries that still persists and even then I've spoken to people who said it's already started to die out over there.

Truth be told, I see little future for Warhammer and Games Workshop in general. Here in Norway Warhammer appears to have literally have died overnight once AoS came out. Of course a few people are trying AoS out with self-imposed composition rules (because the game by the book is the most unplayable game GW has ever created), myself included, but way more people have started looking into other games like WM&H and KoW. To be honest when I'm reading up on what they are doing, how they communicate with the customers, update their rules, having an actual near-future release schedule and being open about their long-term goals... I wonder why I'm sticking to GW games.

Anyways: First off now it's the ETC and then we'll see what happens :) Before that however I'm leaving for New York for a week tomorrow so unfortunately I won't be able to update you with more tournament reports just yet. I'll try my best to at least get two more tournaments up before I leave for Prague though (I have 3 left with ETC rules that I've not reported here, all of which feature some very cool games).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:58 pm 
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Off to new york, nice!

Update those reports when you can?

Have you done any investigation yourself as to what game system you might move to?

sadly my group is lookong to start 40k :shock: :cry:

I read the free version of KOW 2nd ed and i like the it so far.

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Wow, thanks for all the new reps and big props for your progress/placements!
Fyi, I'm also having troubles seeing the pictures...might just be my fon tho ,)

As for the development of the whfb scene, over here in Germany we go thru
the somewhat typical 3 way split into AoS optimist, quitters and those who want to
keep 8th alive. Belonging to the third group myself, I now have to find a group of
people who want to play comped 8th - be that etc, swedish or combat - as if nothing
happened. This seems to be easier set than done since there are many competing
sets of fan made rule sets out there, plus the combat team are in the AoS camp.

Ah, and I got a question for you: what would you field in a setting that uses the
current etc restrictions but with 3k points instead of 2400?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:33 am 
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teep wrote:
the combat team are in the AoS camp.

Wow, I'd have thought they'd hate it.

Curu Olannon wrote:
I heard you'll hold a few more 8th tournaments but I think England's one of the few countries that still persists and even then I've spoken to people who said it's already started to die out over there.

In general, the ETC players, the guys who run the biggest tournaments, the guys who are most active on Twitter are unsuprisingly all-in on AoS. This camp always embraces the new stuff, whatever it is. But the grass-roots tournament players on the whole want to play 8th and of course it's a large, long-established scene. The smaller TO's will run whatever they think they can sell tickets for. Elsewhere on Ulthuan I've posted links to five 8th tournaments between now and November and another four that are undecided. One early AoS was cancelled for lack of interest, the only other one I can think of is Clash of Swords, where Mo Ashraf has written substantial comp. This event is known for great socials etc. so it has support.

Curu Olannon wrote:
First off now it's the ETC and then we'll see what happens

I imagine there will be a big meeting concerning the way forward. Swedes influential here?

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Great reports, a nice variety of opponents and some interesting tactical stuff. This is WHFB as we will always remember it. Sad to hear about the game dying out in Norway, this is likely to be the case round the world, as the horror that is AoS takes over. Hopefully people will still keep playing 8th in their basements and GW will reconsider their strategy sometime in the future...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:39 am 
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I think there's a danger of this becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ie everyone assumes 8th will die off because that's what happens to GW games that they drop. Firstly though, I played historical wargames before Warhammer and some of those rulesets remained in play for many years without new rules being added. Sure, manufacturers made new figures but there are a host of independents making fresh figures for WHFB. Then there is the survival of Blood Bowl to consider.

Secondly, there is clearly a big demand for a massed battles game. That's why Warhammer was born 32 years ago because guys like me who owned models for RPG's but also played historical wargames, were up for it. I don't think that's changed at all. Up to now, most players have considered WFB the best option. Kings of War etc now have the big advantage that they are supported but whether that will overcome WFB's big player base and if so how quickly, is not clear yet IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:57 pm 
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@sparkytrypod - 40k is something I wouldn't consider because it's backed by GW who just proved that they don't care about players who want to play the game competitively. I won't invest this much time and effort into a game produced by a company who can do things like GW just did with WHFB. Too risky.

@teep - Thanks, although it's old by now (tournament was in April) re-living the games when I re-posted and translated from the Norwegian forum brought back good memories. I'm sorry to hear about the pictures issue :( It would seem that some people are committed to making "9th age" or whatever it's called work. The question I'm asking myself is where will they get miniatures down the line when GW ditches old factions completely and produces 40k-models-for-fantasy exclusively.

ETC for 3000 points. I have no clue. I don't know what people can/will bring. I have very little experience with big games as well.

@SpellArcher - The more I think about it the more I understand why the UK scene embraces AoS. They were always the ones making their own comp and ways to play the game anyway so lack of a composition system for them won't matter as much. Elsewhere in Europe it is my understanding that most countries commit to 1/2 systems for about a year at a time. Sweden for example has had SWE-comp and ETC. Germany combat and ETC and so on. Those systems, unlike some of the UK comp packs like the (in)famous SCGT or Sheffield (used for this year's masters as well) rely heavily on an existing set of composition rules.

I also imagine ETC will gather a lot of players to discuss the various options for the future.

@RE.Lee - Thanks for your kind words! I believe 8th or some version based on it, made by fans, will survive for some time. Long-time survival is dependent on models, perhaps also economic incentiv to create and update rules.

---

While I was in New York (great trip by the way!) the game literally died out over night in Norway. Apart from the ETC team, nobody plays Warhammer at all in my area. A very few people (including myself) tried out a couple of games of AoS but it was all over rather quickly. Even the ETC team largely abandoned Warhammer (luckily we had most of our preparations months ago so all players have dozens of games with lists identical to or close to what we're attending with) in favour of other games.

The one game that has surfaced as the most popular one by far is Warmachine and Hordes. Being in NYC I had tons of time of my hands in-between shopping, sightseeing etc I read up on the game. TL;DR I'm starting Warmachine and Hordes when I get home from Prague. It's a game that feels more like 40k than fantasy but whose overall strategy reminds me more of fantasy than 40k, surprisingly enough. Reading up on how the competitive scene works and talking to veterans here in Oslo I must say it's very refreshing to be able to enter a game that can be played straight out of the book with balance we've never seen in Warhammer (literally any faction can win a tournament and frequently do) and that's not even getting into the details regarding how Privateer Press continuously support and update the competitive side of the game. Of course there are quirks here and there in that game as well, but from a competitive point of view it is just lightyears ahead of what I've ever seen GW produce. Furthermore the scene is established both in Norway as well as internationally (I want to continue going abroad to play games, thus far they've been among my best experiences) and literally my entire club has made the switch (or will do so after the ETC).

It's sad to let WHFB go but I don't believe in the long-term survivability of a fan-based edition and that leaves me with no motivation to invest further hundreds of hours. AoS is unplayable. Games Workshop produces the best models and up until the "Warhammer reboot" following the End Times they had the best background as well, in my opinion. It's such a shame that they can't be bothered to take the rules seriously. After all it would probably not require more than 3 people working full time to produce a consistent and balanced (enough) ruleset which I can't imagine would've been a significant expense, granting a return on investment that would be, in my opinion, very lucrative. AoS might still turn out to be a money-making machine, after all they took everything that sells well in 40k and put it into a fantasy setting as well, but personally I believe the game will sooner or later die out. 40k has amazing background and GW has yet to ruin it completely (though the future here looks dark as well, in my opinion) so there's little incentive to choose AoS over it.

What are the other alternatives out there? 40k is an obvious choice, doubly so because I've played it on-and-off for years. However my unwillingness to commit to AoS is largely my lack of belief in GW, which applies to 40k just the same. Furthermore, the extreme fragmentation of rules and ridiculous things some armies can field there just puts me off. The most logical game system would probably be Kings of War, who also happen to have a very well-timed release of their new main rules. There are 3 reasons why I've not even read the rules of that game: 1. Very few people here are interested in it, so chances are I'd struggle to find a gaming group to play with regularly. 2. Privateer Press seems to be more established and more serious about their game whereas KoW appears (to me at least) to be in its infancy. 3. I don't trust Cavatore to make reasonable rules. His 6th ed. Skaven book proved to me that he does not understand context, which is paramount when you want to balance a game.

Lastly I must apologize for my lack of updates. Since I got home a week ago I've been very busy with RL stuff and the last ETC preparations. We made our final preparations today, spending 8 hours to go through various evaluations, pairing stuff etc. Hopefully it pays off :) We are doing our very best to send WHFB off with a bang on behalf of Norway.

PS! For those that are interested, I'm starting up Cygnar in WM&H.

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:11 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
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Location: Otherworld
Curu Olannon wrote:
The question I'm asking myself is where will they get miniatures down the line when GW ditches old factions completely and produces 40k-models-for-fantasy exclusively.

There are a lot of independents Curu. I have a friend in Budapest who is purely in it for the painting these days and he sends me endless links to some great manufacturers. Some of these like Heresy Miniatures make some really inspiring stuff. Most of the GW themes are there plus whole new ideas.

There are a lot of players in the UK who find 8th just fine with very minimal comp. This makes things easier than disparate groups having to agree over a substantial set of changes. A lot of players are simply saying 'we find this game more enjoyable than the alternatives'. Most guys don't play quite as intensively or as incisively as the top players, who are by now a bit bored of it. Most players here will bring hard stuff but they'll also bring a unit or two they just like even if it's sub-optimal. This 'hobby element' keeps the game fresh.

A lot of the big TO's, podcasters, Twitter posters, will back AoS because they have an interest in being at the cutting edge. They want the structure that flows from new rules, regular releases and the debate these generate. But this isn't essential for a tournament scene. Long before (and during) Warhammer there was an Ancients scene with years-old rules and no regular updates. It worked great.

I suspect WM&H will suit you very well Curu! It seems a great game from the competitive angle. I too have played 40K on and off over the years and enjoyed it very much but more latterly than lately. You will be sorely missed here. If you find the time to write anything about the ETC that would be great.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:37 pm 
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True :)


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