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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:17 am 
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Can't wait to see these painted :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:24 am 
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The Dragon is nearing completion. The Phoenix will follow shortly :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Have you considered using two eagle riding nobles? With golden crown your BSB ccan be faily safe a single turn against canons or you could use the non BSB noble as cannonball catcher like Malossar did? Having played the 4 peg DE army quite a few times there is so many targets that it is impossible to take them all out before they hit.
It will of course require you to either have a very low magic + gear allowance on the eagle nobles and 2 x lvl 2 mages (I think 75 points in total if mages are mounted, 50 points left after scroll), but lowering one of mages to lvl 1 will then give you enough to get a quite decent item load on all 4 heroes. I know the magic phase will go pretty thin I was just interested if this was something that has crossed your mind and what disadvantages you would expect?

And I'm really looking forward to the finished pictures of dragon and phoenix.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:35 pm 
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I have. Long story short: They`re a great idea in their own right, but they fail at creating a safe haven with BOTWD and they leave the magic phase too weak. I find that there aren`t even enough points to tool up one of them decently without leaving the BOTWD for another unit, which simply put isn`t feasible given that I want multiple RBTs and a Frostheart.

Dragon`s done. The model is a very old sculpt so unfortunately the texture is no-where near as good as the newer models. I found it really hard to paint, but in the end the result is tabletop worthy. Pictures will come soon. The Phoenix has just been sprayed black and is drying.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Dragon-Eagle:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Finished the second Eagle as well. Fastest model I`ve ever painted just about: almost nothing but drybrushing:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:11 am 
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That firebirdy reminds me so much of some sort of pokemon.
Great ideas, by the way. A nice little unique touch to some mundane units :)

Are they still on 50mm bases? it kinda looks bigger...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:48 am 
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Moltres, the legendary pokemon fire-bird? Yeah I suppose they`re rather similar, I hadn`t considered that until now ;)

The bases are indeed 50x50. Perhaps they look bigger because both models take up a lot more space than what`s usual for a 50x50 base?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:46 pm 
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I requested a match vs TK today (aka Cheesekings), wanting to test the Star Dragon against the recent tournament winner (I played vs his Empire last week but his TK are truly his strong point).

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Tomb Kings (ETC comp) .::.

My list:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed = 130
Characters = 1195

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
2 Eagles = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2398

His list:
Liche High Priest: lvl4, Nehekara, Scepter of stability = 225
Liche High Priest: lvl4, Death, Dispel Scroll = 235

28 Archers: champ, musi = 188
10 Archers = 60
10 Archers = 60
10 Archers = 60
10 Archers = 60
5 Horse Archers = 70
5 Horse Archers = 70
5 Horse Archers = 70
5 Horse Archers = 70

3 Necro Knights: champ, musi = 215
Warshinx: Fiery Roar = 230
Warshinx: Fiery Roar = 230
Warshinx: Fiery Roar = 230

Necrosphinx: 225
Hierotitant: 175
Casket of Souls: 135
Skullapult: 90

== 2698 ==

I got double Soul Quench, Arcane Unforging and Apotheosis. He got Caress, Spirit Leech, Soulblight, Purple Sun: Smiting, Ward, Movement, -D3 move and DT for me.

The following pictures show deployment and turns 1 + 2:

Image

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Image

So I deployed in a corner and he responded directly across. Sphinxes tight together with Necro on the flank. He managed to grab first turn and off we went: T1 saw him get Purple sun through, he needed 8+ to reach Dragon + Phoenix and I didn`t want to waste my scroll. He rolled a `10`, the Star Dragon died but Phoenix survived along with Prince. With such a start I considered conceding, but I wanted to see if it was possible to play on and maybe find an opening. The alternative would be to reform the bus and move West, marching the Prince into the safety of BOTWD. With such a play I believe I would`ve landed on a 12-8 loss as I`d waste chaff and RBTs escaping. Maybe 13-7 or even 14-6. Anywho, I decided to throw caution to the wind. Phoenix into Horse Archers, overrunning into Necrosphinx, Prince into more Horse Archers, hoping he`d clear the path, survive and join cav next turn.

It was not to be: the Phoenix ground to a halt on the necrosphinx, the bus never found any openings and the Prince died. In the even he surrounded the bus and killed everything. VPs were something like 2400 in his favour, a huge 0-20 loss to HE.

// Evaluation //

I actually think I should opt for more of a refused flank against this army. I need to deploy more defensively and use his numbers against him. Although he has a lot of drops he commits early so this should be doable. Also keeps Dragon safe from I2 tests early on. Lastly, RBTs need to be deployed more carefully. In terms of magic, I should never swap the first one`s. I need spell selection and double Soul Quench is overkill. Perhaps swap if Tempest or Arcane is rolled. I want Hand of Glory for defensive +I casts.

Overall the matchup is 0/-1 for HE. There are many threats but I believe it`s possible to overcome them. The more I think of it, the more refused flank makes sense. The way we deploy opposite eachother now there is simply too much pressure too quickly (I don`t even have time to deal with Horse Archers!) and he dominates the entire game. His magic is also super powerful when we`re so tight.

EDIT: This is a game where I can see a Flamespyre being better than a Star Dragon. Its increased magical resilience helps a lot and Wake of Fire would help clear those Horse Archers.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:40 pm 
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I was wondering about that tournament victory Curu. +300pts is a lot! Whatever the army's shortcomings it has a potent magic phase.

How would you assess your chances if you had used the scroll?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Using the scroll T1 is almost never a good idea. If you have to, you have to, but the PS had 1/3 of a chance of reaching me, 1/6 of a chance of doing some bad harm to himself. I think the major fault here is deployment though, so even if I had used the scroll I think it would be hard for me to make a significant impact in this game.

+300 points most definitely helps, no doubt :) TK Magic is scary. The solution is to get in combat, but you cannot grind vs 4 sphinxes and it`s hard to push them down. Isolation is key, but that`s impossible to achieve with 4 units of scouting fast cav without deploying skewed, which is what I should`ve done.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:03 am 
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OUCH!

as a dragon player i must say im sad:< those things always makes me sad.
couple of tips if i may...
game last 6 turns(some ppl forget that ;]), so the dragon should be deployed as far as possible to avoid such things in turn 1.

in my last tournament i lost my dragon in turn 1 due to super cannon shot, + outrider shot. i ended that game with the score 10-10. i just hid the prince in a bus and played defensively, its the only option. u should have done the same. You would see how difficult is to not lose. i consider that type of play the most effective learning method.

best regards xD

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:40 am 
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The problem in this game, which probably blindsided me a little too much, was the huge arc of his Grudge Thrower. It would be almost impossible for me to shield to Dragon from it had I not taken the hillside. As you say though, by deploying skewed I could always have sent the Prince into the bus and played the avoidance game (as I noted in the report I could have done this despite the deployment as well), ensuring a drawish result. Lesson learned, you almost always learn the most from losing ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Hey Curu,

I gotta ask you something, please bear in mind that I do so out of mere curiosity, not out of spite.
How do you think of your current SD list in terms of "tournament worthiness", given the mixed bag of results?
I recall you dismissing the bus+double elite approach for the time being, because you reckoned the list
too weak to win tournaments, although you went 4/1 with it.
Maybe you can reiterate your goodness criteria regarding a list's strenght for me? Does the SD list retain its
favor due to its ability to win really big, so that losing big once in a while does not really diminish its viability?
I got a feeling that I might not be able to distinguish all too well between list/concept inherent weaknesses
(that can't be fixed at a whim) and situational incidents of "bad" play (which might be fixed rather easily).

Looking forward to hearing from you about this issue :)

Pax,
teep


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Sure! My games with the high-magic assisted bus Star Dragon list thus far have been exclusively positive. Despite my 0-20 loss yesterday, I think the TK matchup is definitely playable for me. Furthermore, I can`t start tailoring my army to what one TK player takes (he`s the only one I know in Scandinavia who plays them well). The meta now is dominated by Elves with quite a bit of Daemons, Empire and Warriors. All these matchups are playable for the Star Dragon.

The problem is when you have a list that you simply cannot win with. My last game @SM is a perfect example here: regardless of how I play that game I will lose big. I can`t push and he wins the shooting war. It is an inherently flawed list and lots of other lists in the meta can completely outplay it: Lizardmen, all variants of Dark Elves and most Wood Elves along with quite a few High Elf lists just dominate it. By constrast, I think the Star Dragon is our best shot vs Lizardmen (arguably matched by the Deathtrain though I don`t have a lot of experience here), while also being solid vs Dark Elves, Wood Elves and dominating High Elves.

It`s hard to put into if this-then-that logic, but in a nutshell if you face too many unplayable matchups the list isn`t strong enough. What I discover is that the Star Dragon has very few of these (non so far). Furthermore I know other players have had success with similar setups for a long time ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:48 pm 
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He didn't cast that Purple Fun with IF so you probably failed to dispel it or just didn't want to even try dispelling in order to stop the other stuff thinking that it won't be able to reach your dragon on the other side of the board. Having only a +2 to dispel plus a scroll as your magic defense is a bit weak and this should especially hurt against the likes of TK with powerful magic. Maybe adding a Sceptre of Stability could be nice for helping out your lvl2 Mages who often have to deal with lvl4 lord level Wizards when dispelling.The Sceptre is especially valuable under ETC comp pack under which casting Death spells and Mindrazor is limited to 4 dice and all the others to 5 dice. That extra dispel dice can be p. sweet under certain situations like the one you've experienced in that last game...

Using this Heroes configuration would give your list a little bit more magic defense:

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Lance = 120
Mage L2 on Steed, Dispel Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed, Sceptre of Stability = 145

Total = 598

I would give this list a try if I were to play ETC with the Star Dragon, it's a little bit inspired from Asbjörn's Swedish ETC list - certainly less chaff than yours but more shooting and magic defense:

Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Lance = 120
Mage L2 on Steed, Dispel Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed, Sceptre of Stability = 145
Characters = 1196

18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows (swap), champ = 95
5 Reavers, bows (swap), champ = 95
Core = 634

4 RBT = 280
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Rare = 570

Army total = 2400

On another note, I think the 2400pts limit is really annoying when playing with super aggressive Dragon lists. When the Lords, Heroes and the Rare section limits become less restrictive at 2500 or 2600 pts. levels, this kind of army can really go wild and play even better than at 2400pts.

We usually play at 2600 or 2500 pts with SLoS and look at these lists I'm planning to use if I ever find the time to build my "Wardens of the Cold Drake Keep" army concept!

List 1:

Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Heavy Armour, Lion Cloak, Shield = 645
(Now that's a proper Dragonlord build unchained by a 600pts restriction, hits hard and is pretty damn tough especially with Blizzard Aura support)

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Dragon Armour = 145 (The super grinder who is also decently tough)
Mage L2 on Steed, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury = 180 (Another Soul Quench? Yes please!)
Mage L2 on Steed, Sceptre of Stability = 145
Characters = 1293

18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers = 80
Core = 684

2 Frosthearts = 480 (POWER OVERWHELMING - Quoth the Protoss Archon from Starcraft)
2 RBT = 140 (I can still clear chaff and flank-shot heavy armour)
Rare = 620

Total = 2599 pts.

List 2 (We're allowed to take the Star Lance on drakemasters)

Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Giant Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Heavy Armour, Lion Cloak, Shield = 640
(Hits AND grinds hard and is decently tough - unlike the ridiculous ETC ruling the enemy has to first make me fail a 1+ armour save to burn through that sweet 2++ Ward save from the Crown when shooting at me)

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Lance = 131
Mage L2 on Steed, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury = 180
Mage L2 on Steed, Sceptre of Stability = 145
Characters = 1274

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 368
5 Reavers, bows (swap), champ = 95
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers = 80
Core = 653

5 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Drakemaster, Star Lance, Charmed Shield = 190
(DP's can become a serious hammer with the Star Lance and hard-hitting units are always welcome in aggressive army builds, DP's can also do neat stuff in certain matchups like blocking a K'Daii Destroyer)

Special = 190

2 Frosthearts = 480
Rare = 480

Total = 2597 pts.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Asbjørn is Norwegian. He plays at my club so we have discussed various Star Dragon builds at some length on many occasions. I`ve also faced his SD three times now I believe, reports should be in this thread somewhere. Anywho, to the topic at hand:

Magic defense is weak, yes. However Sceptre is unreliable at best and it decreases the grinding potential of the bus. Squeezing double Nobles and double L2s into 2400 is just hard, you have to make a lot of sacrifices. In this game I had spent my dispel dice prior to Purple Sun, I can`t remember if it was the movement spell or whatever but the point is I didn`t fear PS this much, this early. Possibly a mistake, but as the post-game analysis revealed it was a poorly deployed army which caused the situation in the first place. I really feel you with regards to 2500 points: it truly would be a godsend to me: allowing me to buff the Lord to 2+ (1+ vs shooting), get that teeny tiny bit more hero equipment and fit in another RBT, maxing those out. Unfortunately, it`s not likely to happen.

I hope you find time to try out your concept. I really appreciate your thorough input, but for the time being I`m happy with the list: I don`t feel I`ve experienced anything necessitating changes yet. From a list perfectionist`s point of view, that says a bit ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:55 pm 
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That Pheonix-eagle is looking great. I feel inspired - I think I will buy the kit, grit my teeth and build a regular frostheart and then convert an IoB griffon and the flame parts into a second pheonix on a full chariot base but following your design as a crib...I'm not quite sure what colour-scheme to go with - red just looks so much better on a flamebird, but I'd almost always want to play it blue.

I actually need to do this too - I'm planning to go to a small tournament in November to play speed-monster-hammer and I'd like to represent my models truly and it's just single/double frostheart preventing this atm...last year I used a skycutter conversion, which I love, but it's more of a conceptual stretch...and I don't think I could do it twice.

As a gamey as hell observation, your conversion would also help the model out in a TLoS context (which I know you don't play), although that categorically is not the motivation behind cool conversions, I remember being scornful of the idea when it was mooted a while back - and now it arises organically from a conversion project... :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:59 pm 
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Thanks Ferny :) Something you can do is to create a Phoenix with pieces from the Frostheart. My other Phoenix is like this and it enables it to play as both birds. You could use the Frostie head for example (there are 3 heads in a box, 2 frosties and 1 flame)?

As for conversions abusing LoS systems - if anyone seriously complains about that Flamespyre-as-Eagle model they need to take a second look at my skyscraper-height Carmine Dragon model. There is hardly a sane piece of terrain anywhere that covers it.

How are you coming along with the tournament preparation? List-building wise, practice wise, painting wise etc?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:36 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
How are you coming along with the tournament preparation? List-building wise, practice wise, painting wise etc


Sod all :wink: . I haven't even played a game in weeks - I submit a draft of my thesis in a little over a fortnight and the final copy in 4-6 weeks time, so I haven't been doing any real-hammer for a while.

But when it's all over I'm so damn deprived I'm even looking forward to painting! I'm gonna glut on all the things I ought to be doing - gaming, socialising, seeing family...gaming :D

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:42 pm 
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I know the feeling bro, I didn`t get much playing done either during my master`s. Good luck with the last effort and see you on the other side, a.k.a. back to life and Warhammer, or was it Warhammer and life? ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:27 am 
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Thanks for posting the last game Curu.

Was it your opponents intention to get the Necrosphinx to tie up the Frostheart Phoenix?

Very intriguing game that's for sure. When's the re-match?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:17 am 
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I think he took the risk because the necro is one of his best counters to the frostheart. No rematch planned yet, but I am sure there will be one.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:26 pm 
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Game tomorrow vs Rusty. Long time since we last faced off! He will be bringing a list I requested, Poland`s OK list from this year`s ETC:

Quote:
Slaughtermaster: General, Lvl 4, Heavens, Earthing Rod, Crown of Command, Warrior Bane, Charmed Shield, 355
Bruiser: BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Rune Maw, 205
Butcher: lvl 2, Great Maw, Great Weapon, Hellheart, 194

9 Ironguts: FCG, Look-Out Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline, 437
3 Ironguts: Musician, 139
10 Gnoblars: 25

3x 1 Sabertusk Pack: 3x 21
5 Mournfang Cavalry: FCG, Iron Fist, Heavy Armour, Dragonhide Banner, 430
6 Maneaters: Musician, Brace of Ogre Pistols (x6), Sniper, Poisoned Attacks, 382

1 Ironblaster: 170
Total: 2400

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Location: Oslo, Norway
Another test for the Star Dragon: The dreaded Ogres!

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Ogre Kingdoms (ETC comp) .::.

My list:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed = 130
Characters = 1195

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
2 Eagles = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2398

His list:
Slaughtermaster: General, Lvl 4, Heavens, Earthing Rod, Crown of Command, Warrior Bane, Charmed Shield, 355
Bruiser: BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Rune Maw, 205
Butcher: lvl 2, Great Maw, Great Weapon, Hellheart, 194

9 Ironguts: FCG, Look-Out Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline, 437
3 Ironguts: Musician, 139
10 Gnoblars: 25

3x 1 Sabertusk Pack: 3x 21
5 Mournfang Cavalry: FCG, Iron Fist, Heavy Armour, Dragonhide Banner, 430
6 Maneaters: Musician, Brace of Ogre Pistols (x6), Sniper, Poisoned Attacks, 382

1 Ironblaster: 170
Total: 2400

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

I specifically requested this matchup to see how this Star Dragon setup would fare against a normal (read: non-shooty) ETC OK list. This was a direct copy of what Poland took this year. Prior to the game, I anticipated -1 to 0 for High Elves.

Engaging Ogres head on is impossible. I will get stuck and no amount of chaff in the world can help me. Besides, it`s too risky seeing as a couple of good IB shots will devastate me and it will be hard to disengage. The idea then was to sweep wide, obtaining complete board control and see if an opportunity would arise. This would allow me to better control his support elements, keep my own out of dangerous-things-range and strike, if possible.

Deployment went very well as I realized in time (barely!) that he would take the opposite corner. I had a back-up plan had he gone for the other corner (close to me), but this is super-risky for the Ogres to do, given how we`d deployed chaff thus far. 5 Mournfang have an absolute huge footprint so the OK player needs space.

With deployment done I was very happy with our positions. Magic gave me Tempest, Hand of Glory, Soul Quench and Apotheosis. I rolled Tempest and Hand of Glory for my first L2 but I had to keep both to maximise my chances of getting a free spell and this was actually what gave me Apotheosis. He got Iceshard, Convergence, Curse of the Midnight Wind and Thunderbolt, along with regen and magic missile.

Image
He had mournfang on the extreme flank, Maneaters with characters in the center and Ironguts towards his refused flank. Maneaters used Gnoblars as counts-as models

With +1, I went first.

// HE T1 //

Flyers shuffled behind the hill, getting a bit closer and taking care to stay outside of Ironblaster range. Bus moved up max, Reavers went around towards my center. I am playing to the long charge here so first order of the day is killing all his chaff. To this end Tempest proved to be a decent spell, taking out 6 Gnoblars. I also got off Hand of Glory for M10. Shooting killed all cats bar 1.

Image

// OK T1 //

He went into the corner and shot down a couple of Helms.

Image

// HE T2 //

I cleared the last chaff and moved into position.

Image

// OK T2 //

BOOM! L4 miscasts and goes down the drain. Finally not my turn to suffer a dimensional cascade. My opponent kept casting with quite a few dice for fairly little gain and this can quickly happen. Ironblaster killed a couple more Helms.

Time to move!

Image

// HE T3 //

Everything moves up, SD behind wall for IB protection. I had all Eagles and Reavers still alive, this was looking good.

Image

// OK T3 //

He tries to go even further into the corner but his footprint is so large it`s hard to get away. He does force me to wait one more turn though.

Shooting sees Maneaters fail and Ironblaster kills a wall.

Image

// HE T4 //

I land Reavers to block off everything and Eagles to lock down his Mournfang. Bus moves to charge whatever I need T5 with SD + Frostheart moving towards Mournfang along with champ-reavers to eat the challenge. Magic sees IF Soul Quench take down 3 Maneaters (they had suffered 2W previously from RBTs). I survived the result.

Image

// OK T4 //

He charges blockers. Ironblaster puts 5W on the Star Dragon but Prince is saved by Atrazar. In combat blockers die, panic is passed across the board.

Image

// HE T5 //

I charge his small Ironguts off table, bus redirects into Maneaters and monsters + Reavers go into Mournfang. Magic sees him forget to activate Hellheart, I get Apotheosis +3W on the Dragon. Regardless it didn`t matter as I murdered the mournfang hard in combat, he barely stood with only the champion left. The Maneaters died but I failed my 8+ overrun to flank the Guts.

Image

Ironguts charged Helms, I fled because I would need 8+ to get past the Phoenix and I would not survive a flanking charge by them. I escaped and rallied. The Mournfang died and my Frostheart killed his Ironblaster. His Ironguts survived.

Counting up points he had 4 units of chaff: 2 Eagles and 2 units of Reavers. I had everything except for BSB, L2 and Ironguts. Roughly 1400 in my favour, a 19-1 win for the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

First things first: Rusty is not used to playing Ogres like this. His over-defensive deploy surrendered his board control before we had even started, the Maneaters hardly got to make their presence felt and the Ironguts and Mournfang were never in a position to dual-threaten a charge or anything. The Mournfang absolutely crush the Silver Helms and the ironguts will too, full strength. I`m not sure how he should`ve done it given the map and the side he had, but utilizing his footprint`s ability to force my bus would be a good place to start: probably off-center West of the impassable.

So, onto the game. I was looking for an opening. One of 4 things can create an opening: L4 dies, IB misfires and either dies or loses a turn of shooting, he goes too aggressive with one unit or he boxes up completely, to the point where he is basically blocking himself on all fronts. 2 of these things happened and I had to grab the opportunity to see what would happen. With the IB hitting the wall (50-50 for hitting the dragon vis-a-vis the wall), I was in a very good position. I perhaps could`ve gotten away with using less redirectors, I should´ve saved one or two to force the IB to keep out from my SD and block the Ironguts T5. Lesson learned!

Lastly I believe this matchup is slightly in favour of the Star Dragon actually. The OK surely have some strong elements available, but once those monsters double down... Boy do they hurt! This is a refreshing revelation as most HE variants struggle with OK.

Thanks for reading, please leave a comment if you have any thoughts about the game ;)

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:05 pm 
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Posts: 137
Nice win. was the man eaters unable to shoot at the dragon T4? Two poisoned shoots could have killed the dragon (12 shots equal two wounds).

How do you think the magic phase from Rusty would have changed the combat had the lvl still been alive? For me a MM like thunderbolt seem like a good monster killer d6 S6 + d6 S4 it should deliver around 2-3W to the SD. Had the lvl 4 not died would it have been a corner vs corner match where you would both stay out of each others range?

Lasty how would you rate the SD lists against something like 3 or 4 peg masters/lord list from Dark elves (typically 3 pegmasters and 1 lord on pegasus)? I play them regularly and I've though about bringing a Star dragon list instead of PG centered lists that I usually bring.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:25 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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He shot at the Dragon. 1 poison, 3 hits. The poison hit went on the Prince who saved by armour, thus saving Atrazar. The 3 hits went on the Dragon, no wounds. Had the L4 stayed alive it would be harder indeed, but I probably would`ve tried still, scroll was intact and I had a good positioned as he had zero space left.

Star Dragon is one of our better lists vs Dark Elves I believe. With that said it`s just a slight advantage, nothing huge. I have played it once, althought with a different magic setup, ended up 10-10 in the end but I felt I should`ve taken it. I`ll be looking to try this again, hopefully before the team tournament :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:16 pm 
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What's happened to Rusty's lovely wolf-men?

:(

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viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:24 pm 
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Location: Oslo, Norway
@SpellArcher - we live 600km apart and this weekend he was visiting Oslo (work-related) so he borrowed another army from a club mate. The Wulfen are still around, but not in Oslo ;)

Some list change ideas: Basically I don`t think there are a lot of things in the game that have flaming attacks without also having magical attacks. As such, the Dragon Armour on the BSB is somewhat of an overkill as it only provides him with a ward and then usually only relevant in close combat. If I instead degrade to heavy armour I can include the Ironcurse Icon. It struck me during the game vs OK today that I often have the monsters in cover, which leaves the enemy artillery to fire on the Helms. Also, I believe lots of artillery will often prioritize the Helms. Examples include Doom Divers, RBTs and HBVG.

Olannon originally wrote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed = 130
Characters = 1195

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3x1 Repeater Bolt Thrower = 210
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
2x1 Great Eagle = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2398


Proposed change:
Olannon found out Ironcurse Icon would be a nice inclusion and wrote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Heavy armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed, Ironcurse Icon = 135
Characters = 1194

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3x1 Repeater Bolt Thrower = 210
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
2x1 Great Eagle = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2397

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:51 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Location: Oslo, Norway
I have now included an index of topics/posts I consider to be highly relevant to this blog. For those that are interested, it can be found one Page 1, more specifically on this link: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=808512#p808512

I`m planning to do a couple of more posts detailing specifics with regards to my current lists to link on the first page in the near future. While the ongoing discussions are invaluable, I often find myself wanting to refer to specific posts way back that I`m unable to find. From now on then I`m hoping to have more "consolidating posts" much like my tournament reports, as well as linking external topics of relevance.

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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