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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Southern Sentinel
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Hi,

I was talking with Jimmy today and he mentioned your most recent battle report. He was curious how I would approach TK army since he looked at the game from their point of view. I quickly looked through the report as due to the fact it is short one it is harder to provide more detailed comments. He then convinced me I should post them in this topic.

I was reluctant as I don't think you need my comments but I promised so here were are. In any case, most important message to start with is that there is nothing personal and I am simply commenting on the game as if I would for any other player.

A pity the report is short and without details as it would help to look deeper into the game and possibilities. It is probably even more important for the defeats, from which one can learn much more than from victories.

I will start with armies in order to try and assess their strengths and weaknesses. I am not going to address the viability of the choices as I believe it is personal matter and if the player wants to add something it means he has some plan for it.

High Elves

The way I see it the army has two elements. Main combat unit with all characters and support units. Main unit is equipped to withstand magical damage and to charge swiftly against chosen target. It hits very hard, thanks to the heroes in it but Silver Helms may add to the number of wounds too, depending on the enemy. If I understand correctly, that unit should win combat without magic support but spells like Flaming Sword or Soulblight can also help. Against some enemies it may require support of Frostheart Phoenix. Adding it to any combat will probably make it swifter anyway.

The challenge with the unit is to make sure it gets into combat, when and where the player wants. Because it is big and easy to divert it needs support.

This is where shooters are going to help. Ideally, bolt throwers would clear the path but 2 fast cavalry unit and scouts should help to stop some enemies from stepping in front of silver helms or divert counter charging enemies, if the unit needs more time to defeat the enemy.

I believe the choice of Death and Fire lores may cause decision making conflict. Many spells from both schools are either magic missiles or direct damage spells and as such are limited to front arc. Since the wizards are in the unit that wants to be in combat as soon as possible they may be very limited in what they can cast. At the same time, the will to cast as many spells as possible is going to stop the unit from charging and its ability to win in combat may seem to be wasted.

Since the army is small in unit drops it needs to adopt some kind of formation that does not depend much on the enemy as it will often be out deployed.

Tomb Kings

This army clearly takes advantage of the ETC rules where it can be fielded with 2700 points limit. It allowed this particular army to get casket and titan in addition to the rest of the forces.

It has good shooting with the arrows that always hit on 5+, good amount of the bowmen and many units of these that allow to pick the targets better or to focus fire on single unit. It also has good magic with huge spells selection. With casket and titan it can produce more reliable magic phase. Because of these two factors as well as the nature of TK army that cannot march it looks like a defensive force, happy to play counter attack game. With many small and expendable units it can make sure to position more valuable targets (i.e. wizards) where they can be safer.

Magic and shooting is not enough, however, so that there are some combat orientated units. 4 sphinxes and a unit of knights are very good at intercepting the enemy units. Their high toughness can be a problem for many regiments too. At the same time, as any other unit in the army with an exception of big archer regiment with wizards, they are relatively cheap thus expendable.

General plan

There is no single regiment that can withstand the charge of the cavalry unit. It even starts with 5CR due to 3 ranks and 2 banners. With good cooperation from the Phoenix it can kill sphinx on the charge. In order to be efficient I think the army can benefit from refused flank formation.

Position repeaters in the center, if possible 6 inches away from any other unit so that they don't cause panic. Technically, it should not be a problem with Ld10 and BSB but better not to take a test at all. Then silver helms and phoenix deploy on one or another flank, probably choosing the one with better terrain set up. Reavers should be nearby, ready to intercept enemy redirectors. With that deployment the shooting is not obscured but at the same time it poses a dilemma to the enemy Hinge discussed elsewhere.

They can attack the bolt throwers but expose the flank. They can ignore bolt throwers but be shot at while moving anyway.

Game deployment

It is often very important phase of the game, no matter how many unit you or your enemy has. In this game the HE deployment was not good. First, Silver Helms were flanked by bolt throwers. If they moved they blocked the line of sight for the war machines. If they didn't they were not using their strength in close combat.

Second, support troops were not used well. Reavers were on the opposite flank, too far to help silver helms and too weak to make a difference on their own.

Finally, Shadow Warriors didn't use their scouting ability either. I think the good opportunity was to deploy them in front of the silver helms blocking 2 horse archers units from making vanguard move. Preventing that would mean that units in the back cannot move either. So TK player would have to choose to move slower than he wanted to or risk early charges. That in turn may have pulled out some elements out of formation.

Early Game

Support troops still don't participate in the game. Reavers are trapped because if they move out they may get shot and if they stay behind the hill, they can't do anything. I am afraid they are wasted resources here.

Shadow Warriors stay back, even behind the repeater. Not sure what the plan for them was but they, as reavers, are not contributing to the game, don't even redirect the approaching enemy.

Cavalry is very inactive and it seems the army plays as a magic+shooting orientated and is wasting great combat potential. In particular when it is not exploiting early success with the destruction of two sphinxes. It created great opportunity to attack enemy formation.

Phoenix seems to operate on his own too.

Mid game

The bus is pinned down as a consequence of inactivity. I still wonder why BSB died anyway. If the units is 5 wide it has to have 3 command models in the front rank. Why not allocate 2 places to the Prince and other noble and keep all fragile characters in the second rank? Especially that his main role is to provide re-rolls and protect the unit from spells.

The army operates with all its elements not supporting each other. Reavers do not protect the flank but don't move fast enough to avoid being shot at and as a result do not get to the catapult early either. They would have been so much more useful if they stayed close to the silver helms. For example, preventing that charge of the warshphinx and the loss of BSB.

It also seems that Phoenix attacked the knights all by itself and lost. It is a fantastic supporting monster but not exactly the great fighter on its own, especially when it cannot thunderstomp.

End game

The loss of the main unit to a panic check was a consequence of the prior inactivity and lack of support from the fast cavalry.

In summary, I think that TK player played very well but what he did was to spot and exploit mistakes. It is not the same as outplaying the opponent but does not make his victory in any way smaller or less deserved. He played to the strengths of his army, was proactive and was not afraid to risk or even sacrifice his sphinxes to achieve big victory.

The game was lost because:
- bad deployment that created conflict between static war machines and mobile cavalry
- the initiative, despite having first turn was not even seized by the TK player, was completely surrounded to him
- lack of cooperation between different elements of the army
- not addressing the danger of having all eggs in one basket by moving the unit away from potential panic sources and not giving it enough space to rally if that happens

Just some food for thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:53 pm 
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Heya, thanks for your detailed input! Let me reply as best as I can, please point out if there`s anything specific I`ve forgotten to address that you would like me to.

I believe the choice of Death and Fire lores may cause decision making conflict. Many spells from both schools are either magic missiles or direct damage spells and as such are limited to front arc. Since the wizards are in the unit that wants to be in combat as soon as possible they may be very limited in what they can cast.
True. Death is the primary lore here, with me looking to Soulblight and DnD to help out when I need combat buffs. Obviously not the best around, but the main point of Death is Purple Sun, which gives the army some kind of reply to configurations I`d otherwise struggle against. In a way, the lores are selected to work around the bus, not with the bus. Fire is to threaten chaff, war machines and have some kind of answer to stuff like Hellpit, Trolls etc. I used to run High but found that 18" is just too short.

In this game the HE deployment was not good. First, Silver Helms were flanked by bolt throwers. If they moved they blocked the line of sight for the war machines. If they didn't they were not using their strength in close combat.
Hills provide infinite height under ETC, so the Eastern RBTs would always have clear lines of fire. Furthermore, Large Targets don`t receive cover from interfering units (unless interfering unit is itself a large target) so all RBTs would always be able to target the Sphinxes. True, by moving the bus out I could have blocked the Western RBTs line of sight to his fast cav, but it`s not as big of a deal as it might have seemed to be at first.

With that said, I think the deployment could definitely have been better.

In this game the HE deployment was not good. First, Silver Helms were flanked by bolt throwers. If they moved they blocked the line of sight for the war machines. If they didn't they were not using their strength in close combat.
Agreed, but he won roll-off for Scouts and placed Horse Archers in front of my bus before I could scout the SWs. As such I had no-where to place them, but they probably should`ve gone to the West as they proved to be more of a headache than a supporting unit given their useless position.

Cavalry is very inactive and it seems the army plays as a magic+shooting orientated and is wasting great combat potential. In particular when it is not exploiting early success with the destruction of two sphinxes. It created great opportunity to attack enemy formation.
True, but remember this: Sphinxes have breath weapons and killing blow. I can`t just ram the cavalry into full-strength sphinxes one after the other: it will lead to too many casualties and possibly a loss. Worst case I get stuck and he counter-charges. This is disastrous. With that said, I should have ran the cavalry up T2 but a combination of his blocks and my poor RBT deployment didn`t allow me to do so.

Phoenix seems to operate on his own too.
I was afraid of his Catapult and was hoping to use it as a distracting flanker mid-game.

The bus is pinned down as a consequence of inactivity. I still wonder why BSB died anyway.
Two large mistakes: RBT acting as a jumping board into the bus and me forgetting to combat reform BSB away from front rank after the Necrosphinx (luckily) died. He also got Smiting off with IF.

The army operates with all its elements not supporting each other. Reavers do not protect the flank but don't move fast enough to avoid being shot at and as a result do not get to the catapult early either. They would have been so much more useful if they stayed close to the silver helms. For example, preventing that charge of the warshphinx and the loss of BSB.
As noted the SWs should probably have been on the West. The Reavers were very close to breaking through until he got off IF Smiting which raised too many for me to handle. I had saved DD for this spell but anyhow it was a risky play on my part. Having them block the Sphinx would obviously have been very helpful, despite it needing 8+ to reach me.

It also seems that Phoenix attacked the knights all by itself and lost.
Correct. On average, this shouldn`t happen as I had a flank charge but the IF Smiting resurrected too much for me to handle. At this point I was just throwing it into the game to hopefully get out with some sense of comeback. I needed to keep the KB Knights away from my bus, with killing them I could possibly have helped out the bus.

In summary, I think that TK player played very well but what he did was to spot and exploit mistakes.
Agreed.

---

I don`t think I could`ve taken the initiative though, not prior to T1`s lucky Purple Sun anyways: with so many Sphinxes I simply cannot engage him. This guy met a similar bus-HE list at my last tournament in his final game and that HE player also played passively, biding his time and letting shooting + magic chip away at the sphinxes. He finished 2nd, so I think the correct play here for bus-HE vs this TK list is to play cautiously, barring a big opening to his bunker of course (which this player rarely allows).

I wish I could provide a more detailed report but there simply isn`t enough time. Regardless your input has touched on pretty much all the essential aspects on the game and provided some food for thought indeed ;)

---

Last night I finally finished a concept I have been looking towards for a long time. Ever since May I`ve been trying to build a list centered around some elements I really enjoy playing with, but I just haven`t managed to configure it the way I`ve wanted to. Last night I finally did, and despite all this training with the cavstar I`ll take this to Indian Summer (this weekend`s tournament) instead. The reasons are threefold: first of all the cavstar has become the new HE ETC netlist. When I saw the ETC lists I was truly surprised at how many ran a variation of the deathtrain. The inherent problem with this is that everyone will learn to know how to play against it. Besides, I really enjoy originality. Secondly, the list is centered around a very hit-or-miss magic phase. Sometimes Death is outstanding, other times it does absolutely nothing. It is also a little too spell-dependent for my taste. The jist of it is that you chuck 4D6 at Purple Sun and sometimes you wipe out 800 points of enemy models, othertimes you do nothing. The problem here is that even if your magic setup is good against the enemy, you won`t necessarily get anything out of a single phase (which can be crucial). Just as I don`t like 6-dicing Mindrazor because of its lack of skill to accomplish, I dislike chucking my dice at Purple Sun because there`s no skill involved. I feel that the Book of Hoeth truly rewards more creative magic phases, where careful evaluation of spells to cast (and, preferably, a wide array of them!) allows you to make more out of an average magic phase, while having (relatively) consistent buffs from said phases. Lastly, the deathtrain is a list I seem to have a problem mastering. I make too many stupid mistakes and am torn between its roles (as Swordmaster points out above this is also, partly, an inherent problem by its design). In the future, if I revisit this list, I think a smaller, High-Magic oriented bus would suit me more.

So unfortunately I will not post the new list just yet. Tournament`s on tomorrow so I`ll post it with reports (hopefully more detailed than my last few!) sometime next week. If you can`t wait, send me a PM and I`ll reply with the list ;)

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
So unfortunately I will not post the new list just yet. Tournament`s on tomorrow so I`ll post it with reports (hopefully more detailed than my last few!) sometime next week. If you can`t wait, send me a PM and I`ll reply with the list ;)

Damn! I'm a silent follower of your thread - silent since I can't add much to your reflexions, but follower because it's a very interesting insight into ETC play.
But I have to react to such a teaser! Not even a hint of the units? That's more than impolite, sir! [-X

(kidding, of course. Anyway I'll be off the internet for a while due to vacations, so I'll have to wait 2 weeks to read your report. That was just a was to say hi and thanks for this thread!)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:01 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Oh it will come in due time ;)

Day 1 update: 46/60 points, 4/40 with leader @54 (he beat me 14-6). Reports later ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:28 pm 
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I'm anxious to see the list and your final placement!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:54 pm 
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Tournament finished, just got home.

Ok so first of all I`ll present the list. In the period after SM, I was making a lot of drafts to see if I could make PG + bus work alongside the Loremaster. It all boils down to how hard it is to protect the Loremaster while keeping the bus effective. While I think Lions are pretty much directly a bad unit now (apart from a case or two when they`re on the defense), their mandatory BOTWD does help keep the Loremaster safe.

So let`s look at the situation when you field the Loremaster + cavbus. Basically you want the Loremaster to have the Book of Hoeth and a 4+ ward, so his equipment is set from the get-go. The backup caster needs the scroll, so he can`t take even the stubborn crown nor MR(2), necessitating even another support character. Can this be accomplished without making this last dude a free ~130-150 points, squishy as a teddybear? Furthermore, by taking the BOTWD on the BSB I need yet another character to push the BSB into the second rank of the bus, so we`re looking at a 6-character setup. Is this doable?

Turns out it is! By taking a look at the PG deathstar which features a combat foot prince, I quickly realized I could combine the Merwyrm Shield with Obsidian Amulet to provide the unit with everything it needs: a decently durable front rank protecting the foot mage and MR(2) to provide it with all it needs to weather anything from Doombolt to death snipes heading for the Loremaster. To round things off, I decided to upgrade the Mage to L2 and pick High Magic, which synergizes perfectly with Razor Standard PG to create a unit that is quite terrifying, alongside the already-proven Helmbus.

The downside? No time for any test games what so ever...

Indian Summer 2014 - List
Quote:
Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:55 pm 
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My opening game saw me draw a very solid player with an equally solid list. I have played this match once before, where he made a huge mistake and I got lucky (see this link: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=873511#p873511). This time, I knew his army but I didn`t know my own too well, as I had never played it before.


.::. Battle Report - Indian Summer #1 vs Vampire Counts (ETC comp) .::.
Points Before the Game: 0/0

Lists:

Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398

Vampire lord: general, lvl 4, Vampires, red fury, aura of dark majesty, beguile, great weapon, Charmed shield,
Talisman of Preservation, Sceptre of Stability, The other Trickster`s Shard, 505
Wight king: bsb, Nightshroud, 150
Necromancer: lvl 1, Vampires, Dispel Scroll, 90
Necromancer: lvl 1, Death, Book of Arkhan, 90
Necromancer: lvl 1, Death, Scroll of Shielding, 80
Cairn wraith: 60
30 Crypt Ghouls: Crypt Ghast, 310
33 Skeleton Warriors: FCG, Banner of Swiftness, 210
2x 5 Dire Wolves: 2x 40
2x 10 Hexwraiths: 2x 300
Terrorgheist: 225
Total: 2400

Pre-battle thoughts and deployment:

My idea about this game was to probably grab soul quench and spam missiles, hoping to engage Hexwraiths if possible and threaten the Terrorgheist with RBTs. I got my corner with him opting for a refused flank, which was fine by me. Spells saw me grab Arcane Unforging and Soul Quench, he got pretty much everything he wanted from Necrolore with Death mages taking Spirit Leech.

Image

With +1, I went first.

HE T1

I moved stuff into threatening arcs and soul quench range of Hexwraiths. I was lucky in the magic phase as my boosted Soul Quench killed 8 from one unit! IF for the win. RBTs cleared chaff.

Image

VC T1

He felt the pressure was on as I had gotten such a good start, so starting moving as quickly as he could. I was wondering how he`d ever intend to get the Ghouls into meaningful combat, but with 2 casts of Vanhels it would of course be possible to march them on with some urgency, eventually.

Image

HE T2

I shuffle around and yet again I score an IF for boosted Soul Quench, scoring a massive 17 hits on the other unit, obliterating it completely! I could not have hoped for a better start: the miscast result wasn`t even that bad (nor had it been last turn).

Image

VC T2

The advance continues and the remaining 2 Hexwraiths find a position between my units. Big mistake on my part to allow such a move to happen without Vanhels.

Image

HE T3

I turn PG around to face remaining Hexwraiths. Magic is big and I draw his scroll and dice with the high magic spells. I`m then left 3 vs 0 with both Fireball and Burning Gaze left. I started off with a 1D6 cast, but even with the Book of Hoeth I couldn`t make the 3+ required. Given the luck I had in my previous 2 turns I can`t complain, but this was crucial as they had a charge aligned up on my RBT, which were supposed to keep his Terrorgheist down. I probably should`ve just started with a 2D6 cast, I don`t know why I didn`t.

Image

VC T3

Hexwraiths into RBT. Raise dead to block bus. TGheist moves up, the war machines too busy to threaten it.

Image

HE T4

I thought I had a chance at taking out the heart of his army here, so I pushed the PG up while the bus charged the raised dead. After all, I had my scroll left. The magic phase saw me IF-remove Nightshroud, but this time the result was disastrous: I lost my mage to a dimensional cascade along with quite a few PG, which left the unit in a horrible position. At this point I knew I had stretched too far.

Image

VC T4

My opponent proves the folly of my attempt to push as he punishes the PG with a flanking TGheist and block the bus with both a Wraith and raised dead. TGheist wins vs PG, I hold.

Image

HE T5

I make a big mistake as I don`t realize my bus is in his raised dead`s flank arc so I charge the wraith instead. This is disastrous: I can`t overrun as this will put me with my flank to his bunker, which is terrible. Magic gives me no help either as I roll terribly and the PG look to be facing certain death.

Image

From here on out I managed to keep the bus safe by blocking him with a character (which held as well, with no ranks on his charge his static wasn`t high enough and his lord was stopped by the Crown). The PG all perished however along with the backlines. From an amazing start I had thrown it all away, partly because I was greedy, partly because I made some silly mistakes. In the end it was a 6-14 loss to the High Elves

Evaluation
Allowing the remaining Hexwraiths a gap T3 was terrible. Not managing to finish them off was even worse. Lastly, going for a push was too risky as he has too many ways to chaff me out (what with 3 level 1s as well) so there`s not much for me to gain unless he makes a big mistake. I should`ve known better and played more conservative vs VC and I likely would`ve brought home a minor victory. Like my last practice game before the tournament vs TK, the dice were with me but I played worse than my opponent, so the loss was well deserved and hopefully taught me a lesson.

Opponent`s Final Placing: 2/36
My Points: 6/20

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:56 pm 
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My second game saw me face a very difficult matchup for High Elves.


.::. Battle Report - Indian Summer #2 vs Orcs and Goblins (ETC comp) .::.
Points Before the Game: 6/20

Lists:

Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398

Black Orc Lord with 2+ 4++ and magic weapon
L4 Shaman with Shrunken Head and TOTS
L1 scroll
Black Orc BSB with armour-stuff

Big unit of Savage Orc Big Uns
2 small units of Night Goblins with 1 Fanatic each
2 Wolf Chariots

Big unit of Black Orcs
2 Rock Lobbers
2 Doom Divers
2 Spear Chuckas
2 Mangler Squigs
2 Pump Wagons

Pre-battle thoughts and deployment

Against OnG, a High Elf player can only pray his artillery won`t do enough damage before you hit home. The plan here was thus straight-forward: move across the board ASAP and try to use Reavers to block the 2 units with magic + shooting clearing the worst threats and (hopefully) the PG + bus can hit home at the same time. Magic granted me Walk Between Worlds which is terrific for a game like this!

Image

Despite +1, he went first.

OnG T1

One Pump Wagon double 1s and moves into Black Orcs, killing a couple. The Black Orcs, to my surprise, move forward full speed. Furthermore, he gets IF Hand of Gork on them and moves them a further 9" towards me!! They are now very close to me. IF sees his mage lose a wound. General was with Black Orcs, shaman in Goblins opposite me. Shooting killed Helms.

Image

HE T1

No point in waiting, both units into orcs. Magic saw scroll come out in a desperate attempt to stop me from winning, but throwing 1600 points worth of combat into a single unit is usually enough on its own. RBTs took out a Pump Wagon and I went to the grind. The carnage was great but I lost a few Helms in return. He broke, I failed to catch.

Image

OnG T2

Pump Wagon failed yet again and stood still. This was becoming a huge problem for my opponent because it was blocking the Savage Orcs. Black Orcs rallied right in front of me. Magic saw IF Foot on PG, my MR(2) being worth its weight in gold! No serious harm was done, the foot continued to Reavers but scattered off. Shooting killed lots of Helms, I lost LoS! and a Rock Lobber found the unfortunate BSB, who died.

Image

HE T2

Again I engaged the Black Orcs, happily realizing that my Helms would overrun into the Pump Wagon and thus be safe from Rock Lobber death. Magic saw some buffs go up and in combat I utterly destroyed them, reforming PG and overrunning Helms into Pump Wagon.

Image

OnG T3

He was still blocked so he couldn`t do much. Chaff was too far away so me coming crashing home was inevitable. I killed the Pump wagon and reformed.

Image

HE T3

Combo-charge on Savages. I took care to direct attacks at the one next to the TOTS-dude and he suffered a LOT of casualties. In return a few Helms died, but the Prince and second Noble were both kept safe. He broke, I pursued off the table with the PG restraining and reforming.

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OnG T4

With the Prince off the table he couldn`t target me so he tried the PG instead, which proved too hard for him to hurt.

Image

After this the cavalry returned so he had one last chance to get the Prince, but between Spirit Leech, being within 12" of a Rock Lobber and Iceshard Blizzard, he managed no more points while I wiped almost everything. 20-0 victory to the High Elves!

Evaluation

Moving up was a big mistake for him. With so many drops, he could`ve managed a refused flank but his plan was (luckily for me) obvious before I had to commit the slowish PG. WBW never made a big impact of the game: it would otherwise have been a very powerful spell here. I used it once to clear a Mangler with Reavers (being Ethereal they kill it without taking damage ;) ) but I think that was it.

My opponent told me afterwards that the plan with the Black Orcs was to kill enough Helms to deal with the rest by means of shooting, which he almost succeeded with (barely a wound or two left and the Prince having no LoS! as well). I think this is a legit approach, but the problem is that without a refused flank I can approach too quickly and the PG are too strong on their own to warrant so much attention to the Helms.

OnG are dangerous, their artillery and chaff are so brutal to our frail T3 Elves. Although this was a big win it could easily have turned against me.

Opponent`s Final Placing: 22/36
Points: 26/40

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Location: Oslo, Norway
For my third game I drew the new Dwarfs!


.::. Battle Report - Indian Summer #3 vs Dwarfs (ETC comp) .::.
Points Before the Game: 26/40

Lists:

Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398


Runesmith, general, shield, rune of balance, rune of spellbreaking, 138
Runesmith, shield, 2x rune of spellbreaking, rune of stone, 113
Thane, BSB, sheld, master rune of groth one-eye, 168
Master Engineer, 70
25 Longbeards, fcg, great weapons, shields, rune of sanctuary x3, 450
10 Quarrellers, champion, great weapons, 150
1 Cannon, rune of forging, 145
1 Cannon, rune of forging, rune of burning, 150
1 Grudge Thrower, rune of forging, rune of accurancy, rune of penetrating, 170
1 Gyrocopter, 80
1 Gyrocopter, 80
10 Miners, 100
19 Irondrakes, fcg, trollhammer torpedo, rune of slowness, 370
Organ Gun, rune of accurancy, 145
5 Rangers, 70
Tot.: 2399

Pre-battle thoughts and deployment

This list is very similar to what Strange is trying out for our team tournament in November. As such, I know it very well and I`ve played the matchup multiple times. The key things vs Dwarfs is being able to grind, which PG do well. I also know that I have to preserve points as much as possible to get a big win - a tactically sound victory could easily boil down to 12-8 with the Dwarfs clearing up so much support etc.

I forgot to take a deployment photo but the gist of it was that I hid Silver Helms behind a big piece of impassable terrain with just the Ogre Blade Noble while the PG were dropped directly opposite his army with the BSB + Prince. I managed to roll Arcane Unforging (a real threat to his AoE Stubborn banner) and with +1, I got first turn.

HE T1

Everything marched up. I took care to place Silver Helms in hard cover from the OG, out of range from his Irondrakes. RBTs targeted Gyro but didn`t kill it. Magic saw -3BS or so on the OG from Iceshard + Miasma (he prioritized dispelling missiles and SL).

Image

DW T1

He moves Gyros towards his forces and tries to shuffle a bit. He hadn`t anticipated the Prince + BSB with PG I think, because his Longbeards were suddenly in a very bad spot. Luckily the characters were all in the unit behind. Shooting wasn`t super effective because I had hid the bus.

Image

HE T2

I move up and take care to wheel the PG so that they can`t be blocked by ambushing Miners. Silver Helms maximise their movement, going very wide to force his Irondrakes to split up from the rest of his forces if they want to target me. Magic draws a scroll but I still deal 1W to the OG (which had taken 1 previously) and lower the BS from the Irondrakes. Shooting finishes the OG.

Image

DW T2

Ambushers arrive and move in besides my PG. He forgets to block me with the Gyro (!!). Shooting kills a couple Helms, nothing big, with the second Gyro blocking them from reaching Irondrakes.

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HE T3

PG into Longbeads, Helms into Gyro. The Helms have done their job, distracting him a lot, so I need them to just save points now. Reavers block Miners. Magic sees superscroll fail to destroy arcane unforging. I do believe I failed to get a single spell through. In combat the PG are devastating, despite his army-wide hatred, and he suffers way worse casualties than I did. Helms kill Gyro and run off the table.

Image

DW T3

Not much happens this turn, he counts on Longbeards living for one more round so the characters stay put while the Irondrakes move closer. In combat I win big, but my BSB dies. This could be a problem, a single panic test could be disastrous.

Image

HE T4

I send Reavers and RBTs out from line of sight. Cavalry arrive and I send them away to hide. I have to withstand one more round of shooting but I should be fine, at least to preserve most of the points as LoS! is still up. In magic I reduce his Irondrakes` BS by 1 because I know I`ll be stranded next turn. I kill the Longbeards and reform wide with the Prince out of the lake to avoid a DT test in my T5 charge.

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DW T4

Characters move to Irondrakes, shooting doesn`t do nearly enough. Cavalry above 25% still as well.

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HE T5

I charge his Gyro and get a big magic phase. I start off with Spirit Leech on his stubborn BSB and after thinking a lot, he decides it`s better to let it through and count on stopping Arcane Unforging. He lets it go and I win by 4, killing him outright. I kill the Gyro and overrun into Xbows.

Image

DW T5

He tries an indirect shot which misses and in combat I massacre his xbows.

Image

After this I charge the Irondrakes and kill half the unit. He tries a desperate T6 rear-charge with Miners but to no avail: I win huge and both units flee. I catch Irondrakes.

Counting up VPs I have preserved lots of points (2 rbts, 1 unit of Reavers, all Helms and the Ogre Blade Noble) so it`s a 20-0 victory to the High Elves!

Evaluation

I think this army suffers from a lack of redirectors and/or blockers and/or more solid combat. In my opinion, Dwarfs can be constructed in one of three ways: with MANY copters (5+), Tanklord (T10) or with 2 big combat blocks. The former 2 can usually rely on GTs whereas the latter is probably better with Organ Guns. I knew this matchup very well from practice games with Strange whereas my opponent did not. Him forgetting the Gyro T2 sealed the deal as the PG could wreak havoc: they`re utterly devastating to infantry.

Opponent`s Final Placing: 29/36
Points: 46/60

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:56 pm 
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For my first game on day 2 I was facing my good friend Dark Reaper, with a Dark Elf army I`ve helped create. We were on table 2 at this point, but the VC player I faced game 1 had taken a massive lead so the only way to get high up would be to score a big win.


.::. Battle Report - Indian Summer #4 vs Dark Elves (ETC comp) .::.
Points Before the Game: 46/60

Lists:

Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398

Dreadlord, General, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dark Steed, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone - 258pts
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4 Death, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Hotek - 295pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield Cloak of Twilight - 188pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, Armour of Destiny - 184pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Charmed Shield, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, BSB - 211pts
Characters = 1136pts

25 Darkshards, Guardmaster, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame - 340pts
9 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows - 180pts
5 Dark Riders - 80pts
Core = 600pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
5 Harpies - 75pts
5 Shades - 80pts
Special = 435pts

9 Doomfire Warlocks - 225pts
Rare = 225pts

Army Total = 2396pts

Pre-battle thoughts and deployment

A very similar list to the one I faced last @SM. It`s ironic I should be playing this type of list again, as half the point behind creating my current list was to be able to push against something like this. Now I would be put to the test, could I finally manage to win a game vs 8th ed. Dark Elves or would this be yet another tournament stopper?

The table was good for me with a central hill on his deployment zone quite far ahead, meaning that he`d be very exposed if he`d go for it. Furthermore, I had lots of open terrain for my bus and the PG had an obstacle they could use T1 to reduce the damage of incoming fire. Lastly I got some good spells: Walk Between Worlds and Soul Quench. He rolled Soulblight, DnD, Purple Sun, Spirit Leech. When deployment was done I was very happy with my position: his chaff was exposed, Warlocks had the lake which made them very predictable while his center was open and hard to defend against my solid units. He hits hard on the charge but his list cannot grind at all, so a cluster**** would likely see PG emerge victorious.

Image

With +1, I went first.

HE T1

PG move to the fence, cavalry move up hard with Reavers behind. I wanted to shield the latter from most of his firepower, knowing how important mid/lategame chaffing can be in this matchup. Magic saw the scroll come out when I got a huge cast at boosted WBW on the PG (which would`ve allowed me to put the entire unit 1" away from his Darkshards pretty much). I got off Miasma -2BS on the Darkshards. Shooting killed an RBT on the hill. I realized at this point that taking Soul Quench was likely inferior to Drain Magic here, given the need to cast spells in combat, disable Soulblight and the speed with which I wanted to engage: having more missiles was simply too redundant.

Image

DE T1

Dark Riders moved to block the bus. Flyers stood still. Magic saw soulblight land on the Helms. Shooting killed an RBT and a Helm or two I believe, nothing major...

Image

A big mistake on Dark Reapers` part was not actually blocking my Helmbus, I measured it up and I had more than 5" from the corner of the Prince to his unit, allowing me to wheel past given a charge - which I just so happened to have on the exposed RBT. Consider the following picture:

Image

Basically the red line shows my alignment to his RBT. When aligning with it, there are 3 possible scenarios: I can reform and be charged by everything (bad), I can overrun into the first Master (blue arrow, very short overrun distance needed) or I can overrun into the second Master with the Cloak of Twilight (pink arrow, longer distance but it means he won`t get a killing blow charge). Purple arrows indicate possible counter-charges. Note that he still has big Dark Riders and Harpies at full strength.

HE T2

So I go for the charge, and I align to hit the closest Master. I can`t remember the distance to hit the one with the cloak (and I`m not 100% sure the angle would`ve worked out with the Dark Riders blocking part of my wheel if I want to go that far) but I decided on the shorter one to ensure actually getting the overrun. If he counter-charges with the killing blow Master and fails to kill the Prince, the game is over right there and then most likely a 20-0 to me. Quick math: 3 attacks hitting on 3/4 = 9/4 hits, which translates to a little over one third to killing blowing my Prince. I usually say that if you want to win a tournament, you need to average 15 points and have a bit of luck in one or two games to push you north of 80 battle points. I saw this as a chance for the big kill, all I needed was for the Prince to survive.

PG moved up as well to support and I did my best with magic to hurt Harpies, but being behind the hill I couldn`t missile them (only Iceshard, which wasn`t enough) so they survived. My firepower couldn`t kill the 5-strong Dark Riders either, so this could turn real ugly if I got stuck as he could potentially chaff my PG for ages.

In combat I killed the RBT and overran into the Master... Now, Dark Reaper, your move.

Image

DE T2

Counter-charging with the Darkshards is a risky proposition: His Lord has a magic weapon and thus my bus is largely immune to him and his L4 is in the front rank. Instead he opted for charging the BSB out of the unit, along with the Cloak of Twilight-Master and the Warlocks. Magic saw him force through Soulblight on the Helms. I knew it wouldn`t decide the game so I saved my scroll. Shooting killed an RBT and some Reavers.

In combat, he lands the crucial killing blow. Adding insult to injury, 2(!!) Warlocks manage to kill the Ogre Blade Noble with me rolling 1`s no end for his saves, including the Crown. This was not how I envisaged this combat to work out. Luckily however, he killed enough Helms for my PG to be able to overrun into his BSB when they killed his Harpies. Partly an oversight on Dark Reapers` part, partly lucky for me.

Image

HE T3

The PG went into the fray. 2 Reavers charged an RBT, the other flanked his small Dark Riders. Magic - can`t remember, but he dispelled Iceshard on his General`s unit. In combat I won big due to the PG helping out. He lost by 4 and had to take 4 tests on LD6. 2 of them failed (the single Pegs) but crucially, the BSB and Warlocks held. One Peg ran off the table, the other stopped just at the edge. I forgot to combat reform the PG...

Image

DE T3

...which Dark Reaper took advantage of as he charged his Lord B2B with my Loremaster. Such a terrible mistake, and such a poor timing as well! Magic saw the scroll come out but I believe he still landed soulblight on the Helms. In combat the Loremaster was brutally cut down. The mage had to step up: this time however I combat reformed him away from the Lord, B2B with his 1W BSB.

Image

HE T4

My Reavers had killed his Dark Riders so I moved them closer to the PG for a little trick. Magic came up with enough dice to 5-dice WBW, which I did with IF! This provided a 3++ for my PG but crucially, I got models in B2B S10 hit, so his BSB died(!). This disconnected the PG-fight from the Helmfight, leaving the Helms alone vs Warlocks. In combat, I challenged out the Lord with my 3++ Champ, who made all his wards masterfully. Despite my large static (banner + 3 ranks) he passed his break test. I would`ve wanted to reform here to give his Darkshards my front, but his Lord was B2B with multiple command models, so it would be impossible.

Image

DE T4

Darkshards flank the PG and we`re now truly past the point of playing safe :D The Cloak re-charges my BSB, having rallied last turn. Soulblight again lands on me. He fails to shoot my Reavers, I have 1 left which passes panic, crucial! In combat he wins vs PG, I hold on steadfast. The Helms` Champion challenge out the Cloak dude to avoid another killing blow disaster.

Image

HE T5

The last Reaver moves to the PG again and I manage yet another IF WBW! 3++ keeping me in the game! I make way with the Noble with the PG because he`s reformed deep so I need to get lucky with kills to remain steadfast. It pays off as I barely kill enough to keep a rank more than him and I hold. I catch a break as the Helms win as well and his cloak dude flees again, this time off the table.

Image

DE T5

With everything focused on the central combat not much else happens here. Soulblight on PG again. Helms kill remaining Warlocks and I reform them towards the central combat. PG lose but are still steadfast, the champ is finally killed by his Lord. I hold.

Image

HE T6

BSB + last remaining SH rear-charge his Dreadlord. I still have 2++ vs him so I`m confident this is a strong play. I finally fail to cast WBW so PG are "only" 4++. It proves solid however, he loses big and is not steadfast: the Lord fails but the Darkshards hold. My BSB catches his lord. The PG reform to maximise attacks on the Darkshards, with mage and Noble on 1W each having to enter the fray...

Image

In the very last turn of the game, his remaining 2 RBT kill the Helm + BSB (400VP), the mage dies (145VP) and the Noble goes down (130VP). In return however he breaks and I catch him, getting massive points for the Darkshards + L4. Counting up the tattered remains, it is the most bloody game I`ve had in quite a while with over 2000VP for both sides, in the end I was ahead by ~160 points though so finally I took a game off of the Dark Elves, an 11-9 victory to the High Elves!

Evaluation

My one biggest mistake in this game was not combat reforming the Loremaster to safety. Despite both my cavalry grinders going down early I never felt I was far behind in this game (well, it was close when my PG got flanked and he combat reformed) and if I could`ve had the Loremaster around I probably would`ve scored a big win. Silly mistake. Another mistake was picking soul quench. Lesson learned: get Drain Magic for an easy-to-cast spell to increase my ward save. It`s also good vs DnD and Soulblight.

Lastly my choice to overrun into the closest Master rather than risk not reaching the other one (I think it was 7", might have been 8") is up for debate.

Oh and despite the terrible beating they took, I still had 8 or 9 PG remaining at the end. These guys are insane!

Opponent`s Final Placing: 13/36
Points: 57/80

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:57 pm 
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Location: Oslo, Norway
For my last game of the tournament, I drew Daemons of Chaos. There were a lot of hard lists in the top, so this wasn`t the worst. It`s not the best either, seeing as a big win is impossible with my list against a good player. We were very close to simply agreeing to 10-10 and not playing the game at all, but in the end decided it would be most fair to play it out.


.::. Battle Report - Indian Summer #5 vs Daemons of Chaos (ETC comp) .::.
Points: 57/80

Lists:

Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398

Great Unclean One - 2x Greater Gift
Herald of Tzeentch, L2

2x10 Horrors
Block of Plaguebearers
2x5 Nurgle Furies
2x1 Beast of Nurgle
4 Beasts of Nurgle
Skillcannon

3 Flies, poison
4 Flies, poison, banner

Pre-battle thoughts and deployment

The inherent problem in this matchup are my PG, ironically enough one of the hardest infantry units in Warhammer needs a babysitter here: if I don`t stay close with the cavalry he can chaff me out indefinitely and massacre the infantry. As such, I have to play refused flank with the infantry towards the extreme edge and the cavalry on the other side. I was hoping my opponent would go for an aggressive play, but he opted for the same so we stood in a corner each. It would be down to magic and shooting for the small points.

Image

Despite +1, my opponent went first.

DoC T1

Stuff moved up, one unit of ER died to MMs.

Image

HE T1

I move up, slingshotting the Loremaster into the Helms to get in range. Magic gets off boosted Burning Gaze on Flies, but he saves all (!) on his 5++.

Image

DoC T2

He moves up with flies and moves back with the army. I think an RBT dies.

Image

HE T2

I move up again, casting magic but to no effect.

Image

DoC T3

He tries to take a shot at my Loremaster. Since he`s with the cav he doesn`t get LoS and all it takes is a `1` on the BOTWD save for him to potentially gain a lot of points. Anyhow, he misfired and blew up.

Image

HE T3

I decide to go for a push to hopefully claim chaff to maybe make it an 11-9 or something. I set up Reavers to bait his flies, which might just keep my RBTs safe through the rest of the game with a little luck. Moving the bus up puts the Loremaster back with the PG, outside of BSB/general range, but I honestly don`t see how he`ll cause a panic test or something like that...

Image

DoC T4

...but Reign of Chaos wills it differently as he rolls 11 for Winds, I randomize the Loremaster, he fails his LD-test and BOOM! there goes 300VP. He also charged the Reavers. This put them in Horrors` MM range and they got obliterated.

Image

HE T4

I move PG up to hunt down his Horrors but in my frustration with the Loremaster I forget to move the Noble away from the corner. I deliberately put the PG on an 11 charge from the flies, 12 from beasts to delay him with regards to RBTs.

Image

DoC T5

He took the charge and although the Beasts ended up being stranded in the lake, his flies made it. Noble died, I held on steadfast.

Image

After this I tried a desperate gamble with the bus, reforming with my rear to his entire army to help out the PG. He charged in since I wasn`t stubborn. My characters fluffed pretty bad so I ended up having to take an LD7 break test, which I luckily passed. The PG proved their strength yet again as they managed to reform and kill all the Flies before the game was over, although I lost the mage in the process.

Counting up he was 310 points ahead, an 8-12 loss to the High Elves.

Evaluation
His 3 big flies never reached my RBT and with a little more luck I could`ve killed them off (he had 1 or 2 wounds remaining), this would`ve made it 10-10 despite the poor circumstances with the Loremaster. The terrain prevented me from deploying the PG more offensively, but in the end I think trying to push to create -something- was worth it. The randomness of Reign of Chaos is just retarded beyond belief, this is the third game it seriously affects me in a profound negative way. Yes, I did put the PG out of BSB/Prince range, but honestly the risk is miniscule and going for points here is the only way I have a chance at the top 3 (with 13-7 I would`ve made third place I believe, or at least 4th). My magic did next to nothing early game, which was a pity. I think the matchup is harder than it looks: Achieving a drawish result isn`t necessarily hard but a big win is impossible. If I push too hard he takes out everything not under BOTWD protection. He has way more drops than me as well so I can`t try anything fancy. With that being said, he definitely played better given the situation, taking advantage of my small mistakes here and there so I feel a small loss was deserved. Perhaps the PG are strong enough to play on the inside of the bus instead of the outside, which threatens his flies a lot more and makes it easier to keep them in LD-bubble since they essentially take the shortcut instead of moving on the outside of the bus. I have a feeling that they are, and re-positioning isn`t that hard

Opponent`s Final Placing: 6/36
Points: 65/100
My final placing: 7/36

Tournament evaluation coming up :)

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Now that is an interesting list. Eee gads thats a lot of points spent in characters for a non dragon, coven style list! But it does seem that you managed to fit almost everything in. I wonder how your lack of chaff impacted the games though.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:33 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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I didn`t find lack of chaff to be an issue in any of my 5 games this weekend. Of course, 5 games is not quite enough to decide this matter, but to make a long story short I quite liked how this list plays. It`s solid and durable with fewer bad matchups than most other HE infantry lists I`ve seen. PG keep impressing me, they are so solid. I doubt I`ll return to WL as my unit of choice for anything resembling offensive play.

The only thing I lacked was superior High Magic selection. This begs the question if the Loremaster shouldn`t be swapped for an L4 Archmage, but this kind of defeats the purpose with the list in the first place: to use the Loremaster`s vast array of combat buffs to achieve consistent, small advantages regardless of Winds of Magic. My initial feelings about this are that I likely just need to play this configuration more to know how to utilize the Lore of High Magic, i.e. when to swap to signatures, when to prioritize simply getting the 3++ up etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Tournament finished, just got home.

Ok so first of all I`ll present the list. In the period after SM, I was making a lot of drafts to see if I could make PG + bus work alongside the Loremaster. It all boils down to how hard it is to protect the Loremaster while keeping the bus effective. While I think Lions are pretty much directly a bad unit now (apart from a case or two when they`re on the defense), their mandatory BOTWD does help keep the Loremaster safe.

So let`s look at the situation when you field the Loremaster + cavbus. Basically you want the Loremaster to have the Book of Hoeth and a 4+ ward, so his equipment is set from the get-go. The backup caster needs the scroll, so he can`t take even the stubborn crown nor MR(2), necessitating even another support character. Can this be accomplished without making this last dude a free ~130-150 points, squishy as a teddybear? Furthermore, by taking the BOTWD on the BSB I need yet another character to push the BSB into the second rank of the bus, so we`re looking at a 6-character setup. Is this doable?

Turns out it is! By taking a look at the PG deathstar which features a combat foot prince, I quickly realized I could combine the Merwyrm Shield with Obsidian Amulet to provide the unit with everything it needs: a decently durable front rank protecting the foot mage and MR(2) to provide it with all it needs to weather anything from Doombolt to death snipes heading for the Loremaster. To round things off, I decided to upgrade the Mage to L2 and pick High Magic, which synergizes perfectly with Razor Standard PG to create a unit that is quite terrifying, alongside the already-proven Helmbus.

The downside? No time for any test games what so ever...

Indian Summer 2014 - List
Quote:
Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth: Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Lords = 598

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Ogre Blade, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Heavy Armour, Shield = 141
Noble: Shield of the Merwyrm, Warrior Bane, Obsidian Amulet, Dragon Armour = 130
High Mage: Level 2, Dispel Scroll = 145
Heroes = 588

17 Silver Helms: Shields, Full Command = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap), Champion = 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 405
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
Special & Rare = 615

Army Total = 2398


I know we've covered this ground before, but as you've included the item now (albeit on a caddy), I have to ask...

Loremaster+BoH+shield of M+MR2 would save you having to have the foot noble at all (who is, after all, just a glorified MR caddy). It does mean that your mage is no longer pushed to the back rank, but once you've blown the scroll he becomes more disposable...you could even give him 6++ to synch with high magic as you'd have the points spare.

Alternatively, Loremaster as per yours, but MR1 on the mage - this gives the PG and LM 3++ vs magic, boosted to 2++ if the high mage gets any spells off, but keeps the true ward on your LM and saves you the noble again, which could be re-invested into the PG unit to make it bigger (which seems a fair trade off against the [limited] reduction in magical protecion). Yes, mage will be front rank - but see before - I see him as partially disposable. Or is he key to your plans simply for shield of saphery 3++ in combat?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Loremaster + BoH + MR2 + Shield does not give the Loremaster a good save vs snipes. With my setup he`s truly as well protected as with the BOTWD vs enemy snipes, whereas with your build he could easily die to a single lucky Caress/Spirit Leech. Besides, the mage is not disposable, it`s a lot of points and having him die means no more 3++. Pushing him back is quite essential to the unit`s grinding potential. The thing is that in any list where you take a backup caster for the scroll, you HAVE to make him useful beyond stopping one spell per game, he`s simply too expensive to be worth taking otherwise. Thus, he needs to provide something. Earlier, I had an L1 Heavens whose main purpose was to threaten double iceshard early on/first assault, but I often even felt the pain of him dying. I didn`t pick high magic for its signatures (which are both situational), but rather for Shield of Saphery.

Game 1 report done, scroll a little further up :)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Ouch that one must have been a hard one to swallow! I could tell from reading that your blood was up and you were ready to move in for the kill and all I could think of was, "Don't do it! You're winning ease up!" Also it seems you fell trap to the book of hoeth. One dicing can and still is super risky. Why didn't you just throw 2 dice a shems? that more than likely clears the hexwraiths anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Yep, too eager. It`s why I shouldn`t play anything but super-aggro lists. To be honest I don`t know why I didn`t throw 2D6. I might remember it wrong, that Shem`s drew dice, but I seem to remember distinctly that the backup mage had cast both his spells and that I had 2 missiles and 3D6 left. 1D6 on MMs with the Book have an 89% chance of success, but it sure feels like way less. Anyhow, what I did was the worst choice regardless of what spells I had left. I know I had fireball and with his scroll out, I could`ve just 3-diced the level 2 version.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:37 pm 
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And it just seems to occur at the worst moments possible in a game. Its happened to me on several occasions (its partly why my loremaster is still sitting on the bench haha)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:15 am 
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I sure could`ve used the MM there, indeed. By killing off the Hexwraiths, the RBTs are safe to rain fire on the Terrorgheist. Regardless, the mistake in the previous turn (allowing the Hexwraiths to move past me) and the strategical error of even pushing against him were what sealed the deal. Relying on taking out 2 Hexwraiths with Scroll of Shielding and Dispel Scroll still up is nowhere near safe with 3 missiles (Searing Doom pretty much doesn`t matter) and Spirit Leech as my only damaging spells.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:27 pm 
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Game 2 is now up - viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=884044#p884044 :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Game 3 is now up - viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=884045#p884045

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Game 4 is now up - viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=884046#p884046

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Game 5 is now up - viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=884047#p884047

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Here are some thoughts I have on High Elf lists, the meta, playing Warhammer etc.


.::. Indian Summer - Post-tournament Analysis .::.

This tournament is held annually in a relatively remote location by a few local heroes arranging the whole thing, including a 40-man barbeque for all the participants. I didn`t attend last year but I was told it was a blast so I decided to go this year and it really was a great tournament. As you can probably make out in some of the battle reports, there were multiple cans of beer around - good times were had by all and despite hard lists and skilled players aplenty, the tournament had a relaxed feel and I think literally everyone enjoyed themselves.

For me, despite the finish being nominally worse than my last tournament, this was a relief with regards to my list building skills. Obviously, changing the list last minute and participating with something I don`t know nor haven`t played with isn`t optimal, but I really thought I was onto something earlier this year which really didn`t pan out. This list on the other hand I really do believe has the tools required to deal with the current meta. It has a couple of bad matchups, but no-where near as many as the list I took to SM.

In 3/5 games I should`ve been able to get more points with better play. Arguably not in the DoC game, but at least vs VC and DE I could`ve easily gotten a lot more points with better play. Ironically, that`s relieving.

An interesting fact about this tournament appears when we look at the top placing lists: At first place we have Tomb Kings(do you hear that Jimmy? :D ) with the exact same list (and player) I faced in my final practice game. He played a very good tournament despite getting lots of difficult matchups. At second and third place we have the Norwegian ETC lists for WoC and VC, with Star Dragon HE following close behind as well as Empire. After that, we have the DoC list that beat me in the last game and me 1 point behind him again. The point of this is that all these lists share a few traits: they rely on a multi-threat angle, taking advantage of the movement phase to set up too many threats for an enemy to handle. For TK, it`s about the Sphinxes. For WoC, we have a stubborn 3++ lord, Crushers and mounted heroes. For VC, it`s the Hexwraiths and Terrorgheist. SDHE is self-explanatory, Empire is about the stank + demis with a big block of Halberdiers, backed by a Coven of Light whose spells often mean you have to let Timewarp through, which is devastating in this regard.

What I find interesting about this is that the traditional way to approach Warhammer, by evaluating your units` ability to beat other units head-to-head, doesn`t really apply here. Every list is now about force concentration and almost everyone (sole exception being WoC among these lists) have significant shooting and/or magical support as well to ensure board control. This inherently means that being successful is highly corelated to making multiple elements work together, which is where I think the skilled players truly shine and games like this separate the best from those who have a good grasp of the game, but make a little too many mistakes to get the really big points.

As to my mistakes in this tournament, I suffer from tunnel vision. It`s nothing new as it`s also something I struggle with when playing video games. I get greedy and only see opportunities, but often times they`re too far away or too risky to go for. The inherent problem is that in the heat of battle, I fail to realize when it`s irrational to reach for even more (see the VC game for a perfect example here in particular). I see it easily afterwards when I`m writing BRs, so I have to work with chilling out when I`m ahead and analyze the situation in a more objective manner. I think it`s my greatest strength and why I play so well with aggressive lists, but also my biggest weakness.

Looking ahead, I`m really wanting to go back to the big Dragon. I`ve been trying to create a list similar to the ones I made during my very first Star Dragon attempts. Long story short, they were very board control intensive, but ended up lacking the strength to counter the then-dominating mega-units (which is why the list developed to include White Lions).

Now obviously, the list resembles the popular SD configurations seen many places these days. This stems from the fact that I believe double-mage, double-noble bus is simply the best way to include BOTWD and enough magic to have enough facets in a list to be competitive, without sacrificing RBTs or including weak elements. My main tweaks revolve around increasing map control through more chaff units, increasing drops to enhance my chances of getting the important units perfectly deployed and making the bus more aggressive than most other variants. Anyway, here goes my first take on the high-magic-bus-supported-star-dragon-list:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed = 130
Characters = 1195

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
2 Eagles = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2398


I originally designed it with 3 Eagles but then I was reminded that we can no longer take 3 individual Eagles, which truly is a pity. Playtesting is needed and I can`t wait to play a list like this again, it has been too long and my wacky experiments never really did work out ;)

There`s a lot of stuff here so I assume you all won`t read everything at once, anyhow please leave a comment should you have one no matter what it`s about. Rest assured, I will return to this PG+LM+Bus sometime in the future as it was loads of fun to play and I believe in its capabilities.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:38 pm 
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Thanks for all that Curu and well-played.

Thought-provoking stuff!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:33 am 
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great reports =D>

gone back to star dragon myself, great fun can be had with walk between worlds and apotheosis!
here is what I have been using, slightly less focussed than yours and 2500 but I have been enjoying the big beast!
I cannot wait to see a few reports.

+++ New Roster (2496pts) +++
+++ 2500pt High Elves 8th Ed Roster (Standard)) +++

* Prince (624pts)
Heavy Armor, Shield, Star Dragon
* Magic Items (AB) Star Lance, (BRB) Dragonhelm, (BRB) Talisman of Preservation

* Mage (180pts)
Elven Steed (Hero), High Magic, Level 2 Wizard
* Magic Items (AB) Khaine's Ring of Fury, (BRB) Dispel Scroll

* Mage (145pts)
Elven Steed (Hero), High Magic, Level 2 Wizard
* Magic Items (BRB) Sceptre of Stability

* Noble (170pts)
Battle Standard, Dragon Armor
* Elven Steed with Barding (Hero)
Ithilmar Barding
* Magic Items (BRB) Enchanted Shield, (BRB) Luckstone, (BRB) Ogre Blade


* Noble (111pts)
Dragon Armor, Lance
* Elven Steed with Barding (Hero)
Ithilmar Barding
* Magic items (BRB) Charmed Shield, (BRB) Potion of Foolhardiness

* Archers (230pts)
21x Archer, Hawkeye, Longbow, Musician

* Ellyrian Reavers (80pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor
* 5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Spear Only

* Ellyrian Reavers (80pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor
* 5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Spear Only

* Silver Helms (237pts)
Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, High Helm, Ithilmar Barding, Lance, Musician, Standard Bearer
* 9x Silver Helm
9x Shield

* Dragon Princes of Caledor (399pts)
Dragon Armor, 11x Dragon Prince, Drakemaster, Elven Steed, Ithilmar Barding, Lance, Musician, Shield
* Standard Bearer
(AB) Banner of the World Dragon


* Frostheart Phoenix (240pts)



Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:35 am 
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@SpellArcher - what parts do you consider thought-provoking? As for playing well thanks :) I was happy with the DW and OnG game, the rest clearly showed my lack of practice. Knowing your army and knowing various matchups are essential and I don`t think all the talent or skill in the world can avoid the simple fact that practice makes perfect.

@sparkytrypod - High Magic is super versatile and Shield of Saphery really adds to the bus` durability. Can`t wait to start playing this list! As for your list, do you have any reports of it in action?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:22 pm 
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im afraid I don't get to game that often due to RL Curu, and my group is split between fluffy/newish players and a couple of competitive players.

However the standout games I have struggled in are against my friend/nemesis's beastman army... believe it or not!
Beastmen built correctly can be a tough match up I find. there will be 7 6 man units of ungors, and 3 single razor gors, all acting as chaff. this will be backed up by 50 gors and 38 bestigors and whatever flavour of characters, be it tank beastlords, lvl 4 shadow or herdstone. its a lot for elven support to clear all that chaff and for the dragon prince bus to with dragon to grind through 50 gors, nailing their BSB is crucial before he is smoked and mirrored to safety!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:45 pm 
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I don`t have a lot of experience vs Beastmen, but I have enough to know that their death/shadow spam is super-dangerous for monsters whereas the rust standard/razor standard kills off our cavalry so easily it`s not even funny. Beastmen`s problem is controlling the pace of the game and being able to focus their forces, which is the opposite of what`s currently dominating the metagame (see my IS tourny-evaluation post). Thus, to win vs them as High Elves you need to engage an isolated unit and utterly destroy it before moving on. As you point out, Beastmen have access to quite a lot of chaff and distractors, so this is easier said than done. Although Beastmen are bottom tier right now, our inherent frailty makes us one of their better matchups, I believe.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:52 pm 
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Well Curu, the realisation that units with multiple characters are becoming more and more central to HE (and other) lists. How the game against DE's played out. The fact that you consider PG superior to Lions. The continuing evolution of the Star Dragon list (I faced two at my event recently). All sorts really!

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