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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Green Istari

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Very nice, especially the mage.

The 'throne' gives gravitas!

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:30 pm 
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I think these are your best conversions yet - really love all three - the bits you've selected all work so well together =D> .

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Thanks guys! I have a special conversion planned for the last mage as well, just need a steed ^^

I like both the Prince and Loremaster better than these. The Star Dragon too, when I think of it (though some work remains here). We`ll see how they turn out with some paint on :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:32 pm 
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I'm a sucker for cavalry conversions - I actually stole your prince idea (reaver conversion) - so simple but so effective...I didn't go to the cutting and greenstuffing effort that you did, I simply head-swapped for a spare DP head I had and added an IoB wizards cloak to cover some of the excess stuff and left the bow as a(n unlikely) princely option...looks ace, but I'll either need him on the flank of the unit or a unit filler for the model beside him - damn those cloaks are big!

The Loremaster was a really creative conversion (the blank helmet: =D> ) and works well but remains quite honest to its core components (the PG body). I feel these models all look very individualistic: lion cavalry can't go wrong (and you've picked a cloak to fit perfectly - just needs something behind the back feet), the throne is a great addition to the mage (and the chariot horses are way great spare mounts) and the mounted PG noble has such an excellent forward leaning pose, and as distinct to the PG-based loremaster, the cloak and torso look completely novel - really good - if the bits weren't so expensive I'd steal that one too :mrgreen: !

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 8:24 pm 
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sparkytrypod wrote:
any chance you feel like doing a wood elf blog and chronicling your adventures...?? :D


Mayhaps i will. I'm allready doing it on a Norwegian Warhammer forum, so i guess it wouldn't be too much of a problem doing one in english as well. I often feel trying to get solid tactical discussions is far more easilly acomplished here as there are so many more people i can reach here. I'm also doing a separate army blog for HE both here (although it hasn't been updated for months..) and on the Norwegian Forum, so i guess i could try to combine the two blogs into one here.

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 11:37 pm 
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@Ferny - Usually these do provide us with the most flexibility since you can customize both the rider and the mount to a great degree. As for the Loremaster, I feel that the bits from the Dragon sprue (sword + book) along with the Helmet really make him stand out from other PG, but I get your points as the entire "main body" is PG parts. For the last mage, I`m looking to mix some WE parts as well. I`ll be picking up a Tiranoc horse tomorrow.

@hansleonard - A combined blog would be great, especially if you can analyse games from different points of view. In a way, this could help you from over-analyzing from one particular point of view and instead put results in a broader context.

---

I got bumped to 11th for SM, as one player above me was disqualified for playing with a standin. It`s not a big deal, but fate seems to be mocking me by placing me JUST outside of top 10. Just goes to show I have to work harder. The Norwegian Championship is in October and it features 2k lists with pretty much no comp. I`m considering whether I`ll attend or not, and if so what army to use. Both HE, WoC and CD have appealing choices available. I think I`ll bide my time and await the meta for now, but rest assured some secret lists have been written ;)

In the meantime, in the world of 2400 ETC games I have my first game with the Star Dragon against shooty OK tomorrow. I`m expecting it to be a pretty bad matchup, but I don`t know just how bad it is. I`m hoping that few drops + hopefully useful terrain can at least give me a fighting chance. A big part of the problem with shooty ogres is that Maneaters are also very strong against monsters, which is a shame. It will be interesting for sure!

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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 12:17 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Ferny - Usually these do provide us with the most flexibility since you can customize both the rider and the mount to a great degree. As for the Loremaster, I feel that the bits from the Dragon sprue (sword + book) along with the Helmet really make him stand out from other PG, but I get your points as the entire "main body" is PG parts. For the last mage, I`m looking to mix some WE parts as well. I`ll be picking up a Tiranoc horse tomorrow.


Don't get me wrong, he's a cracking kit-bash and he's certainly unmistakable for a PG - everything about him screams character, and with book, sword and armour there's really only one option there.

I was actually thinking about this guy earlier - I kinda think he demands some fluff...he's not a Loremaster of Hoeth, he's a Keeper of the Word (lol - no face :roll: ), which works with keeper of the flame and the whole mute thing, a Seer (I did it again :roll: ) from the Temple of Asuryan who yadda yadda :).

The current fluff for my loremaster is a Caledor Dragon Mage without a dragon, on the basis that martial mages from Caledor make sense...I've seen Nagarythe, Lothern and Chracian loremasters on here too - he's just such a good character for kitbashing (doubly so given how terrible the original is!).

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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 1:59 pm 
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I might get around to fluff at some point, the problem at the moment is that any time I have for Warhammer is prioritized towards painting/modelling, playing and participating on this forum :) I did have a bit of background in my last blog though.

BR vs OK coming right up!

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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 2:35 pm 
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Finally brought out the Star Dragon again! This time I was facing shooty Ogres.

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Ogre Kingdoms (ETC comp) .::.

My list:

:: Star Dragon ::

Prince on Star Dragon with star lance, dragonhelm, golden crown of atrazar, tots, shield = 598
Noble on Griffon, enchanted shield, dawnstone, heavy armour, lance = 260
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, heavy armour, shield, spear, botwd = 168
High Mage L2, scroll, furyring = 170
Characters/heroes: 1196/598

14 Silver Helms, full command and shields = 352
5 reavers, champion = 90
17 Spearelves, musician and standard bearer with +1M = 188
Core: 630

4 RBTs = 280
Eagle = 50
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare: 570

Army total: 2396

His list:

Bruiser BSB Maw Banner
Bruiser Crown of Command
Firebelly Ruby Ring, Dispel Scroll

Guts
3 Ogres
3x10 Gnoblars

3 cats
7 Maneaters, poison, stubborn, handguns
8 Leadbelchers

2 Ironblasters

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

I know this is a tough matchup for the Star Dragon, the question is how tough. Deployment-wise I had the Star Dragon centrally with the bus nearby. He had a corner, with Ironguts on the refused flank, then Maneaters and Leadbelchers close to the flank. I was fine with this. For magic, I rolled Apotheosis and Fiery Convocation, swapping the latter for Soul Quench. He got Flaming Sword of Rhuin and Fireball.

Image
PG are Spears

I grabbed first turn and off we went!

// HE T1 //

Flyvers moved up and because his Ironblasters were both in a corner, I managed to completely block the Star Dragon with the Frostheart. The Noble flew along as well. Bus moved up centrally, taking care to stay on a very unlikely charge range from the guts. Infantry with mage moved up to within 18" of the Leadbelchers.

Magic was 8v5. 3D6 Soul Quench was dispelled on 3D6. He scrolled boosted Soul Quench. RBTs combined to kills Leadbelchers, panic passed.

Image

// OK T1 //

Bulls move up, rest back off. Magic sees Fireball kill an Eagle as I save my scroll for a critical flaming sword cast, which I know is bound to come at some point.

Shooting sees 1 Ironblaster hit the Star Dragon despite the "cover". He manages to roll two 1`s to wound however. The second puts 2W on the Frostie. Maneaters take a wound off of the Star Dragon and remove the Prince´s crown. Leadbelchers kill 3 Helms.

Image

// HE T2 //

SD + Griff charge Guts. Griff fails to roll 9+ to reach them. Bus charges Bulls, he flees and I catch them. Frostie blocks Maneaters. Infantry stay still, happy to be within 18" of both the Frostie and the Leadbelchers.

Magic is 7v6. He lets through a 2D6 cast of furyring, taking a few more wounds off of Leadies. I then cast 5D6 boosted apotheosis, which he fails to stop (on the frostie), healing it back up. RBTs fire upon leadies as well.

In combat the Prince has to eat the challenge because the Griffon didn`t make it. Champ dies, I hold on stubborn.

Image

// OK T2 //

Maneaters charge Frostie. Leadies move up. Magic is 5v4. He casts Flaming Sword with all his dice and gets IF. So much for saving the scroll. Miscast drains his levels. Shooting sees an Ironblaster kill a Griffon + rider, the other kills an RBT. Leadies kill Spears, panic passed. In combat I challenge, he declines and I move BSB to the back. He passes fear test in both combats. Star Dragon deals 3W to the Firebelly and 1W to the unit, the breath weapon rolling snake eyes for hits. Frostheart wins, but he holds. The Ironguts however strike hard and deal 5W to the Star Dragon...

Image

// HE T3 //

Bus charges in to hopefully help the Dragon. Magic is 10v6. I start off with a 1D6 soul quench which he lets through. 5D6 apotheosis on Dragon is then dispelled on 6D6 with him getting two 6`s. I finish off with boosted soul quench on the leadbelchers and they take quite a beating. Shooting sees the RBTs and Reavers combine to finish off the Leadbelchers.

In combat the SD on 1W is hopeless and it dies. I did challenge however and he declined. Because he targeted the Dragon with so much to ensure the kill, I won combat. He had a stubborn LD9 test (without re-rolls), which he passed and my hope was quickly fading. Frostie beat Maneaters again but he held.

Image

// OK T3 //

Chaff moves up towards RBTs. Ironblasters shoot RBTs. In combat the bus loses big and the prince dies, but I hold.

Image

// HE T4 //

I manage apotheosis on the Frostie again, healing it fully. Shooting panics Gnoblars off table. In combat the BSB is killed and the Helms break. He reforms to face Frostie. It wins again, but he holds easily.

Image

So the Gutstar charges the Frostie and kills it. My infantry is commited because of Soul Quench range so I charge an Ironblaster which I kill. He then kills all I have left apart from Reavers, who survive. Counting up, he`s ahead by 1425 - a 1-19 loss for the High Elves.

// Evaluation //

I knew this was a bad matchup, just not how bad. I was looking forward to trying it out to get a feel of just how hard it is to play this. The results speak for themselves, it is one of the worst, if not the worst, matchup for High Elves. The problem is two-fold: the obvious problem is avoiding all the nasty shooting, the second problem is that there are almost no good targets for the flyers to engage, not if I can`t concentrate them on a single target.

The Frostheart blocking the SD is a double-edged sword. It works well, but you don`t get charge arcs with it for the next turn. Having it against the Ironguts would`ve been wonderful. I could`ve probably used Reavers more aggressively to have them as a possible charger for the Ironguts as well, with the Champ eating the challenge. This would`ve allowed Prince to kill Firebelly so he never would`ve cast Flaming Sword of Ruin. The Griffon not making the required roll was bad luck, but a 9+ swiftstride charge is far from safe.

Speaking of luck, while reading this you might think that I was unlucky: the flaming sword getting IF, the apotheosis being dispelled, him passing all the break tests without re-rolls etc. However don`t forget that an Ironblaster hit the Dragon dealing no damage to either the Prince or the mount, I got Apotheosis in spell selection and got it off on the Frostie to keep it vs Maneaters forever, I got first turn and so on. My point is that while a few critical things didn`t go my way, a few critical things most certainly did. Overall, this means that a lot of things have to go my way for me to be able to win this matchup, which is what makes it so hard. Sure, it is possible to win but it`s down to luck, not skill: regardless of how well you play you will need help from the dice in multiple clutch situations.

The "default" SD list for me is the bus-variant with 2 mages and 2 fighters. This experiment is largely something I`m trying out to determine whether the Griffon can be superior. In this matchup, it would not have mattered regardless as it`s a bad matchup. Thus, while this matchup taught me a lot, it did not help me get anywhere closer to evaluating whether a Griffon can be worth it. I have another game planned this week however which should be really interesting in this regard ;)

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 11:29 pm 
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Indeed it is a tough matchup against the Ogres, I'm not surprised by the result as it is an uphill struggle from the start. They have the tools to take out monsters at range with their laser-sighted cannons and really don't care about monsters or the Frostheart debuffs in CC - guts already strike last with GWs and going at Str.5 instead of 6 with that number of attacks isn't usually an issue for them. Not getting stomps against them is just the icing on the cake although in the current 'monstrous meta' I'm not sure you can ever count on getting them anyway.

As you say, not much to learn from this one other than the fact that it is a terrible matchup. Given this though, and the fact that any Star Dragon build will face pretty much the same problems, I'm surprised you're going back to this build. I really love playing the dragon too and having a really aggressive army but given that it has so many polarised match-ups I don't think it should be viewed as the way forward for Elves in the competitive environment as I can't really see it winning a major event without some serious luck.

I'm also sorry to say I don't really see the Noble on Griffon as a viable option either. He is far too lightweight for the points investment and is very easy to kill both at range or in CC - or at least it is too easy to kill his mount. I would be looking to either save the points and run your usual bus approach (you said it is better yourself) or go back to the eagle riding noble who is both cheaper and won't have his mount killed under him. I think a lot of players will see this guy as the easy points that he is.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:58 am 
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Curu

Firstly thanks for posting up the battle report against the Ogres as playing them a little more and more it’s interesting to see what other people are running.

Clearly your army got dismantled however I’m not so sure it was a bad matchup as you discount it at. Certainly you’re always going to run into more favourable situations against different armies however each matchup presents its own unique set of problems.

It appears you didn’t coordinate your fast units well enough to tackle the Ogres. As you mentioned the Reavers needed to be used to block the Ironguts to allow for combo charges or at least take down other elements of the Ogres. Secondly they could have been used to block line of sight from the Leadbelchers and Maneaters if you went that way.

Also were you expecting a different result having two characters charge a stubborn block of Monstrous Infantry with character support of their own? Charging a unit and merely hoping they fail a Ld9 test isn’t promising!

I don’t think blocking the Dragon with the Phoenix was a good idea purely because it takes the Phoenix out of the equation in terms of charging and supporting the rest of the army. Unfortunately against this list I think something is going to get hit by the Ironblasters, just need to dictate a little what that is and when it happens.

If you had a re-match how would you play differently?

I certainly feel you get the most utility from having the second caster but in saying that I’m looking forward to seeing your next game this week giving the Griffon another crack.

Lastly when are you going to start using Battle Chronicler again? You posted a tutorial on it, even asked the forum what was the preferred method and you’re still using photos – what’s the scoop? Just a time issue?

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:15 am 
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@John Rainbow - Frostheart debuff is pretty huge if you use it alongside the Star Dragon as the guts now needs 6s to wound the Dragon. There are a few lessons to take away however: use the Griffon more aggressively (apart from Leadbelchers I don`t think anything will target it while the other 2 are alive) and play the Reavers as a challenge-asset to the Dragon.

The Star Dragon has a few very bad matchups. Dwarfs are a nightmare with the new and improved Hammerers/Longbeards (depending a bit on the build of course), shooty OK are a nightmare and I reckon Empire is tough, though no-where near as bad as these 2 as their artillery is way less potent and easier to block without losing charge arc on the Frostie. Also, Empire has absolutely nothing that can threaten the Star Dragon in combat, apart from a charging stank, so if you get into one you`re usually home free.

What I see however is that these builds aren`t that common. Few players take Dwarfs (I think the last 2-3 big tournaments here have something like 5-6 Dwarfs combined), same for CD. The only shooty OK I`ve seen is rusty`s variant, which has been taken once in 2 out of 3 tournaments. Considering that I believe every other list has equally poor matchups that are more popular and the Star Dragon can win big when it does have a favourable matchup, I don`t think it`s such a poor bet actually. It won a tournament here recently with a very strong field (although admittedly it didn`t have the most battle points it`s still a very strong finish) and one of the HE lists above me @SM used this build. Speaking of SM, in many of my matchups there a Star Dragon would`ve been way better for me. Arguably only the EMP is worse, whereas virtually all the others are easier. Also, there`s the team tournament I`m preparing for in which case we can dictate some of the matchups and our pairing training so far has shown that it is fairly easy to get a good matchup for the Star Dragon without it costing the team too much.

As for the Noble on Griffon, the writing is on the wall indeed. I`ll let hime have a game or two more before caving in ;)

@Jimmy - The matchup is terrible, without a doubt. With that being said, there were certainly mistakes here. The Reavers was probably my main mistake and playing these correctly might`ve been a big deal indeed. Blocking LoS however is not possible as the SD is a large target and thus only gets cover from other large targets. This was also a reason why I sent the Frostheart blocking. Basically I have no other choice, if I don`t block with it the Dragon could easily perish, in which case the game is over. It`s a shame that it loses its potential to combo-charge, but barring more favourable terrain I view it as too much of a risk not to do this. I`ll run some numbers and re-consider my approach after that ;)

As for charging stubborn LD9: I wasn`t really hoping they`d break instantly, but in total he ended up rolling something like 5 break tests without re-rolls. At that point, it is more likely that he`ll fail at least one of them than it is that he`ll pass them all. An LD9 test is the equivalent of a 2+ on 1D6, so on average once you pass 3 rolls, you are in a grey area when anything can "likely" happen. When you reach 6, on average one will fail. Charging in like this however was more something I had to do, not something I wanted to do. Standing in the open is not an option though since I cannot hide from the Ironblasters. With the Griffon hitting home with the Star Dragon, I think the gutstar could`ve been dealt with: there are suddenly 3 different initiative steps with the first 2 very likely killing the champion (unless there`s a challenge in which case the SD can start working on the guts straight away). On average, the guts deal 2W to the Star Dragon each combat phase. The IF Flaming Sword however is huge, suddenly even the Firebelly breath weapon becomes a threat, which indeed was shown as well when the Guts dealt 5W in one combat phase.

A rematch would see the noble played more aggressively, along with the Reavers. I also would`ve tried to get the cavalry into a more favourable position for a possible combo-charge.

Today I`ll have a match vs Wood Elves featuring a cavbus. On Saturday I`ll have a game with the Star Dragon + Griffon vs Dark Elves. I agree that a second caster seems the better choice, I just need to be sure of this before I move on and as I said in the BR analysis, I don`t think this game proved that, although it implicitly showed the importance of getting Apotheosis.

As for BC, it`s mostly about time. I would have the time, but it would leave less time for other things as my overall "warhammer time" is limited. I know I should get back to using it, so will try to make room for such a report every now and then at least :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:22 am 
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I have been contemplating the loadout on the characters in the bus a bit. With bonus points, if the entire unit dies I`m giving up nearly 2000VPs, so specifics here can be very, very important. First, the list:

Curu Olannon wrote:
High Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605

Army total = 2396


Basically we have 2 configurable Nobles and 283 points to play with (a few more could be freed, but it would take some hard convincing to do so). Interesting magic items include:
- Sword of Anti-Heroes
- Star Lance
- Ogre Blade
- Potion of Strength
- Golden Crown of Atrazar
- Luckstone
- Dragonhelm
- Talisman of Endurance
- Talisman of Preservation

So I`m basically looking to hear everyone`s take on this :) I`m open to any and all ideas!

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:39 am 
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Personally I prefer the photo reports.

I admire the way you deliberately seek out the toughest match-ups Curu.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:47 am 
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He has to. :P We want to see what we can match him against and what we absolutely cannot. I still feel like the bus is the safer way to go, while the Star Dragon is perhaps the most devastating alternative. It is certainly the most fun!

As for your loadouts. Sword of Anti-Heroes is good against Gutstars, but do you think you can beat them even without the sword? If so, I think it might not be necessary. I can't really see that many things being able to win against your bus as you have a 2++ against all magic weapons.

Quote:
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131


This one I really like. He hits hard on the charge and in one subsequent round as well. I am not sure if the Sword will usually be better or not, but it is undoubtely more expensive, so you will need to find some points. The Ogre Blade is a pretty safe bet as well, so it depends on whether you value reliability or potential damage more, I guess. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 11:32 am 
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Dark Reaper wrote:
He has to.

Ah...so he can blame you guys for this DR?

:)

To be fair though even in the old solo days he did.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:15 pm 
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@SpellArcher - I have to seek all matchups to properly prepare ;) I don't play Warhammer to boast on the internet of how many good matchups I can dominate nor to display an impressive W-L-D ratio. I play to improve my game, to be able to compete with the best and hopefully win tournaments, eventually. The best way to do this is to work on your weak parts. For the team tournament, knowing what matchups are -1s and what matchups are -2s are essential to our strategy. For a solo environment, having a trick or two and knowing what the best course of action is in a hard matchup can see a hopeless situation turn to victory. Player skill can overcome bad matchups, no doubt. Without experience however, even player skill will frequently be too little as you need to know the specifics, i.e. what hard choices to you usually have to make, what risks you need to take etc.

As for the reports, I'll try and do a few combined ones when I do have time :) Roughly, a BC report takes twice as long to write as a photo report. However, having done everything in BC adding photos is not that big of a deal.

@Dark Reaper - The problem is that with mawbanner, tyrant and L4 both with 4++ it really is a tough matchup. The front rank is made up of characters that are super-resilient, between the two lords you're looking at 10 T5 wounds, possibly with negative modifiers to hit (tyrant with WS10 and glittering scales sees helms hit on 6s for example). The Mawbanner is a killer here because I can't whittle it down. Mopping up the rest should be possible.

The question basically boils down to this: what matchups do I need extra grind in, what matchups do I need the Sword of Anti-Heroes in and what matchups doesn't it really matter in? I don't have time at the moment but I'll be looking to do a more thorough analysis when I do.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:22 pm 
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I thought you made your biggest mistake turn 1. If it were me playing in that match up ( and I have) with the star dragon I'd have sent all of my big gribblies directly at the iron guts using the reavers to redirect and screen them from the leadbelchers. You've just dared your opponent to shoot you and he's only got one opportunity to do so now. The star dragon, frostheart, and even the griffon have a great chance at surviving the first round shots of cannon fire.

Also... cannonball catcher noble on an eagle? He's served me well maybe you should give him a try!

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Thanks a lot for your input, Mal! I will write an analysis on the topic as soon as I have time ;) You pretty much echo Jimmy`s feedback and I hear you!

As for the Eagle Noble, the problem is that the Eagles has a too small base to block M6 cannons. With the frostie`s 100mm length I could barely block both, and the only reason I could was because of tight deployment on my opponent`s part.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@SpellArcher - I have to seek all matchups to properly prepare I don't play Warhammer to boast on the internet of how many good matchups I can dominate nor to display an impressive W-L-D ratio. I play to improve my game, to be able to compete with the best and hopefully win tournaments, eventually. The best way to do this is to work on your weak parts. For the team tournament, knowing what matchups are -1s and what matchups are -2s are essential to our strategy. For a solo environment, having a trick or two and knowing what the best course of action is in a hard matchup can see a hopeless situation turn to victory. Player skill can overcome bad matchups, no doubt. Without experience however, even player skill will frequently be too little as you need to know the specifics, i.e. what hard choices to you usually have to make, what risks you need to take etc.

I hear you. Personally, I'm happy to play whatever is put in front of me (with tourney games of course you don't really get a choice!). But actively seeking out the toughest match-ups is admirable. Again I agree that an unpromising match-up can often be overturned by player skill but there are limits.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 5:40 pm 
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Hi
Very interesting to follow the propagation in the different lists.

Curu Olannon wrote:
High Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605

Army total = 2396


Regarding the cavalry list a guy in my community recently won a 20 player one day tournament using a somewhat similar list. Two primary things was changed.
First of all he had filled the rare slot with sisters instead of the frost heart. I saw him remove all DE chaff and a unit of RxB before his shooting had finished T2 (3xDR, 16 RxB (failed panic), 5 warlock if you call them chaff) all this without magical support.
The second part was that he was using death on his AM and on his lvl2 to kill of enemy characters (i think he should have had a reliable MM). He didn't run BoH on his AM because he was using death, but you would be allowed to do so (I guess it's due to ETC restictions that you do not do that with the current setup).

He filled Hero, Lord and rare slot up to maximum, so he did not have any shadow warriors or other special units. I think he invested around 610 in his core units.

Regarding the noble kit I would include Ogre blade. Stranding in a grinding duel i not really what you what.
I think I would run
Noble, B.Steed, HA, Shield, Halberd Dragon helm, luckstone, Pot of fools, Starlance 143
Noble, B.Steed, Dr.A, Ogre blade, Charmed shield 140
Pot of fools or luckstone + Halberd can be exchanged with Dr.A depending on your liking.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:31 pm 
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@SpellArcher - Thanks mate ;) Although I can understand that it might seem daunting, it`s also a lot more rewarding when you win big. Winning big in a favourable matchup is no-where near as sweet as taking that big, fat 20-0 in a poor matchup. I also agree 100% that some matchups are so hard that skill hardly matters at all as far as W-L-D goes (preserving points and making the right strategic decisions can always help mitigating a bad situation or pressing your advantage in a favourable one).

@Dragon fire - Sisters over Frostheart is not my cup of tea. I can see how it works, especially since my second mage is high magic as well (as opposed to Beasts which could be a real killer here) and the ring. Book, banner and frostie are 0-2 under ETC. The Power Stone is very good as well though :) As for the Ogre Blade, I think I agree. That means it`s potion of strength vs Sword of Anti-Heroes, in a nutshell. Long story short, I need to look more carefully into this. Perhaps there`s a way to configure all of this the way I want to. Grinding power is indeed important, but so is being able to handle other, tough units. Gutstar with Maw banner is currently no. 1 on my DO NOT TOUCH list because of my inability to pluck away wounds with magic in this particular case.

---

So let`s revisit the shooty Ogre game. Both Jimmy and Malossar thought my Phoenix-blocking move was poor because it prevents the Phoenix from combo-charging with the Dragon. This was something I discussed with my team prior to the game, and on a theoretical level it holds true because it`s very, very hard to kill the Dragon in this manner. The problem however is that the Dragon alone is risky to send in vs the gutstar without support. Thus, I admit that given the rest of my positions, blocking was a poor move. A superior move would be to eat 2 cannonballs and pray for the best. Anything apart from a dead Dragon would see a combo-charge on the Gutstar. If the Dragon dies, perhaps it is possible to back up and not lose big. So yes, whether to block or not pretty much depends on the bus + griffon noble. If they are in a position to combo-charge, blocking can be done. If not, the SD needs the Frostheart, pretty much. Otherwise, even getting the beasty in isn`t necessarily enough.

Moving on, I had a game vs WE today with the cavstar list. As WE now have ETC comp out and my opponent had a compliant list, it was a very interesting game. I`ll hopefully get the report up tonight, but unfortunately there`s no time for BC this game.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:00 pm 
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A new game vs Wood Elves. I was eager to check them out under ETC restrictions: last game saw TONS of shooting that could easily have been hard for me to handle. With the restrictions bringing these builds significantly down, I was eager to see how this matchup had changed.

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Wood Elves (ETC comp) .::.

My list:

High Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605

Army total = 2396

His list:

L4 Dark, steed, mr2, power stone, moonstone
L2 Heavens, steed, scroll
BSB Hail of Doom, Bow of Loren, steed

10 Archers poison
10 Archers trueflight
19 Archers starfire arrows

7 Sisters, fc, +1LD banner
7 Wild Riders
7 Wild Riders

1o Waywatchers
10 Waywatchers
2 Eagles

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

I brought the same list as last time. We rolled a table with better terrain for me as well. With both players being more experienced with this matchup, I was expecting this game to be very different from our last encounter. I was hoping that my choice of prioritizing flexibility would pay off, as I believe this is one of the matchups that go from good => insanely good because of this.

Deployment was good, I got a nice hill to hide my bus behind with frostie in cover as well and flanks well protected. The RBTs were also way harder to reach for him and he`d have to commit significantly to take them down. Spells saw my L4 roll a triple, I took Fiery, Soul Quench, Apotheosis, Walk Between Worlds. L1 took Soul Quench. He got Word of Pain, Doombolt, Soul Stealer and Power of Darkness. He elected not to take black horror because he didn`t know this little important bit:

ETC FAQ wrote:
Q: What kind of ward saves can be used against Arnzipal's Black Horror? Can you use Regeneration?
A: You can use only generic, all purpose Ward Saves and Magic Resistance. The spell doesn’t cause wounds so Banner of the World Dragon, Cloak of Twilight, and other Ward Saves against wounds caused by magic and similar do not work. No Regeneration.


His L2 got Iceshard + Harmonic.

Image

With +1, I went first!

// HE T1 //

Bus marches up, just within range of Waywatchers in the corner (he had deployed one unit in each corner, so by T2 the bus would be too far away for him to handle with both). Shadow Warriors + Frostheart move to the East to neutralize threats. Reavers move to intercept on the West if necessary.

Magic is 7v5. Two casts of Soul Quench on poisoned Archers (central unit, trueflight in corner near WWs) was dispelled and I power stoned Fiery Convocation on the WWs which he scrolled. Shooting saw 3 RBT + Reavers kill Wild Riders on the West, RBT + Shadow Warriors killed 3 on the East. He removed the ones near the SWs so I was no longer blocking him and he could charge the RBT. Smart, I didn`t see that coming actually. Regardless, with the spacing of it relative to the rest of my forces it wouldn`t matter too much: with only 4 left they would not be too hard to handle.

Image

// WE T1 //

WWs move into ruins, 1 dies to dangerous terrain. Other WWs back up. Bunker moves towards the corner I`m pointing my bus towards. Eagle blocks bus.

Magic can`t remember numbers but I let him have curse of anraheir + boosted word of pain (-3) on the bus. I stopped Harmonic Convergence on Waywatchers. Speaking of which, they killed something like 5 Helms. The rest of his shooting did next to nothing. In combat the Wild Riders killed the RBT and overran 2" (that`s right, 3 ones).

Image

// HE T2 //

Bus reforms and moves further up. Shadow Warriors charge Waywatchers (12" away so roughly 50-50) and make it. Frosty moves up in case the SW somehow lose or need support. Reavers stay cautious.

Magic sees me roll snake eyes. I channel one and get a bit happier. I start off with 2D6 Walk Between Worlds on the bus, but I roll a 1 and a 2 so the spell barely goes off (+1 to cast high magic!). He dispels however. I use the last D6 on Soul Quench on the trueflight Archers, but roll low on hits and only 2 are killed. In shooting the RBTs kill the Eagle, I let the Wild Riders be, for now.

Shadow Warriors lost 1 to dangerous terrain when charging WWs. The WWs dealt no wounds however, but WS5 proved solid as the SWs managed 2 casualties in return. Testing on -4 was bad news and the Nagarythe Warriors chased the Wood Elves down.

Image

// WE T2 //

Last Eagle is too far away to block the bus. He reforms starfire arrow Archers to congaline to block the bus, taking care to keep me in his front arc so an overrun won`t take me into the bunker. Magic sees him land Curse on the bus. I dispel Convergence on WWs. Shooting: WWs kill more Helms. No biggie as there was only 1 unit left.

Image

But wait a minute. That unit has a lot of characters. Surely some of them can make something happen? The Prince for example, now where is he at?

Image

// HE T3 //

Flexibility, flexibility, flexibility. When you invest north of 1600 points in a single unit, you are bound to have some tricks up your sleeve. I was very surprised that he left me with a possible charge from the Prince, as we even discussed the fact that characters can charge out from the second rank (I had to have the mages in the first rank next to command because of the short ranges on soul quench/fiery convocation). Anyway, the opportunity was there. He declared S&S with Hail of Doom, which presented an interesting question: would the Prince get the benefit from BOTWD? We didn`t know and couldn`t find a quick answer on the internet so we rolled a D6 and it decided that I would get no benefit. S&S was his only option regardless in my opinion and with Curse of Anraheir and a little luck, my General could die (flee would`ve seen 8+ on swiftstride needed to flee off the table). Alas, 1+ re-rollable proved solid and the charge hit home with the Prince intact on 3W.

Bus reformed and took a central position. The situation got worse when I managed to cast a boosted Soul Quench on his Waywatchers, killing 8/10 and basically making it impossible for him to kill the bus now. Shooting followed up with the Wild Riders being dispatched. It was looking very good for the High Elves.

In combat I was challenged out by the champion and managed to deal 0 wounds (no re-rolls to hit and 4++ is tough). I lost by 1 but held.

Image

// WE T3 //

He tries to shoot, but there are too few units and too little damage to get anything serious going. In magic he gets off Iceshard I believe (might`ve been curse, don`t know) but he miscasts and drains 3 levels.

Combat sees the Prince kill the champ. No overkill, so I lose again but hold.

Image

// HE T4 //

Ogre Blade Noble charges out to help the Prince. Bus reforms. Frostheart moves up, along with all chaff. I figure he can`t kill it all. Magic sees the Waywatchers and trueflight Archers disappear in a hail of magic missiles. Right now I feel my bus is like the Battlestar Galactica, its guns (= magic missiles) blazing and vipers (= prince + noble) being sent out on killer missions.

Shooting kills a few poisoned archers as 3 rbts have nothing better to do. In combat I kill his general with the Prince and the Noble wounds the L2.

Image

// WE T4 //

He gets off Shield of Thorns, I dispel the rest. Shooting deals 3W to the frostie (I had taken 1 due to DT previously, landing in the ruins for cover) and it`s left on 1W. In combat I deal a wound to the BSB, one to the mage, the mage survives because of Lifebloom. I lose, but hold.

Image

Frostie charges blocking Eagle, another viper (= noble) is launched on the starfire archers and reavers charge poison-archers who flee 3", I catch them. Shooting: nothing to target. In combat the Prince kills the BSB and the Noble kills the mage. He breaks, I catch him. We roll out the last combat as I charge his Archers with the bus (at long last it sees combat) and an Apotheosis`d Frostheart. They die in droves, he breaks, I catch them.

I had lost an RBT. He had lost everything and given up 225 bonus points. A clear 20-0 victory to the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

This matchup is so brutal for Wood Elves it`s not even funny. The only fighting chance they have is getting first turn on favourable terrain with poor high magic selection and deployment mistakes from HE. Even then, they`ll be hard pressed even to achieve a draw. The flexibility of my bus really shone in this game, they didn`t need to enter combat to be a huge threat. 3 magic missiles and fiery convocation has that effect against all things Elves + Lizardmen, along with a few others (Ogres without mawbanner will find this very frustrating for example). I do believe this is a very valuable asset, as the bus is otherwise too one-dimensional while it`s not the strongest deathstar around.

Few mistakes on my part in this game, quite a few on the WE side of things. Splitting the army up might work in some cases, for me it just makes things easier.

Getting T1 here, while not essential, makes the game very easy for HE to play. Basically you march up 18" and start throwing spells around. With anything barring snake eyes winds, you can pretty much draw a scroll T1 as well due to the power stone, opening up for huge moves throughout the game.

For the team tournament, this list has +2 vs WE, with low volatility and high confidence. I don`t see what WE can do short of being insanely lucky to have a fighting chance here. 15-5 or better should be expected of the HE player. Basically the Sisters cannot necessarily be caught, but the rest should be killable without losing too much yourself.

Thanks for reading, C&C welcome :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:37 pm 
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Good win.

I think the cost for your shadow warriors is off or does a champion really cost 15 points?

Also, I think you might have played the S&S wrong with the hail of doom arrow. I would say you would get your ward save because of the precedent of when every other stand and shoot happens. From the moment the charge is declared you check for range and varying cover which effects the nature of the accuracy of the shot. Thus it makes sense that he would shoot you while you are still in the unit (point at which you declared the charge) and would five your prince the reroll.

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Quote:
He declared S&S with Hail of Doom, which presented an interesting question: would the Prince get the benefit from BOTWD?


I think the unit the prince is with will be hit instead since he hasn`t left the unit when the S&S is performed.


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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:55 am 
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Wow, great report. It's a pleasure to see a sound and considered strategy being expertly executed (regardless of whether or not it was a favorable matchup).
Well done!

Quote:
Right now I feel my bus is like the Battlestar Galactica, its guns (= magic missiles) blazing and vipers (= prince + noble) being sent out on killer missions.

Loved the imagery, very apt.

On the subject of presentation, the photos from this report were much more useful than for the Ogre game (I found it quite hard to tell what was going on there). Whilst I definitely find it easiest to understand tactical decisions when looking at BC diagrams, when you include good photos that focus on what you're describing with the text, that is almost as good.

Quote:
Q: What kind of ward saves can be used against Arnzipal's Black Horror? Can you use Regeneration?
A: You can use only generic, all purpose Ward Saves and Magic Resistance. The spell doesn’t cause wounds so Banner of the World Dragon, Cloak of Twilight, and other Ward Saves against wounds caused by magic and similar do not work. No Regeneration.


Huh, I hadn't thought of that but RAW it does seem to be correct. It does however raise questions regarding a 'killing blow' inflicted by a magic weapon (given that both the spell and KB use the same term 'slay/slain' to describe what happens to the victim).
However, I suppose I should save any further discussion on the matter for rules threads.

Thanks again and best of luck in future games.


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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 4:42 pm 
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@Malossar Dragonborne - You`re right, I`m 5 points off ^^ Will correct! As for the HoDA I still haven`t figured out how this works. Will look into it.

@Chayal - do you have a reference to the BRB here?

@gaz - glad you liked my BSG reference ;) I`m trying to capture more relevant pictures instead of necessarily getting the entire table. Good to know it helps :) Magical KB attacks are rare, but needs looking into indeed.

---

Thinking about the Star Dragon, my last game vs OK highlighted another issue: the Spearbunker for a mage is a risky proposition. He will frequently be left outside of BSB/General bubble, which is not good with LD8. Furthermore the spears present an easy target and will, more often than not, end up being too close for comfort because of the 18" range of soul quench.

Instead, and also inspired by Ferny`s posts re: Star Dragon in other threads, I`ve decided to try out a new approach. I posted a similar list proposition on the army lists forum a while ago, but let`s revisit the idea with an updated list:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Star Lance, Dragonhelm, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield = 598

Noble BSB on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Sceptre of Stability - 145
Mage L1 Light on Steed, Ring of Fury - 120
Heroes/Characters: 592/1190

14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 352
8 Silver Helms, Musician, Shields = 194
5 Reavers, Champion = 90
Core: 636

1 Great Eagle = 50
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Special & Rare: 570

Army Total: 2396


So basically we have a bus hitting at full strength with the BSB, a lot of Light Magic and the rest is pretty standard. The second unit of Helms is small, but they are fast and I don`t believe they can be reduced enough for the mages to be threatened. If they can, chances are I`m losing badly regardless and/or I`ve made som bad mistakes. Whether it can compete with high magic is yet to be seen, but S6 Banishment, boosted Pha`s and even Speed of Light is very strong with the rest of the list. Dropping the level on one mage even allowed the ring of fury, along with scepter of stability.

I will be trying out this list in my next game. Should be interesting :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Quote:
do you have a reference to the BRB here?


Hmm, I guess I was wrong. The character counts as a separate target. See page 101 in the BRB.

It also says "he does not gain the same protection as being inside a unit". This could mean that he doesn`t benefit from the banner.

Have you tried using an Anointed on a Frostheart? I know he doesn`t have the same hitting power as a Prince on Stardragon, but he is much harder to kill. I`m thinking about using the following setup:

Anointed on Frostheart
Enchanted shield
Ogre blad/Sword of anti heroes
Dawnstone
Ring of fury

He gets a 2++ save against spells, he has a 2+ rerollable armor save and he can get a 3++ save thanks to Ring of Fury. His Phoenix also gets a 4++ save when using the ring, and it can get a 3++ save if I get lucky in the magic phase.


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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Hard to keep up with all the posts here. Thanks for the reports :) .

Ogre game
1) In hindsight, going monsters all inn on the leadbelchers, with a fairly high chance of overrunning into the ironblasters would have been a better choice. ib does on average 2,2 w to a non-warded monsters, all factors accounted for. I guess you'll just have to eat the shots for one turn.
2) The ogre player should have placed his ib's behind the maneaters, as they're stubborn. Placing them separatly to ensure they can shoot past blockers are also preferable. However, I can see why he didn't with so many flyers.
3) The ogre player should have deployed his gnoblar units in front of his leadbelchers to shield them from shooting. Did he use two of them to draw out your deployment, since they're off to one side of the table?
4) Not mentioned in the report, I se gnoblars and sabretusks take your phoenix guard all the way out of the game. Redirecting done right, very nice. On the other hand, that means he had a sabretusk tucked inside his army. Did you see any chance of soul quenching that sabre tusk for a few cheap panic tests?
5) Your Phoenix surviving so long versus the maneaters sound very improbable, even with apothesis. They do on average 3 poison wounds every CC turn, as long as they're six strong. How did that play out?
6) When you finally did force a break test on the gutstar, by how much did he lose?
7) I personally prefer ward saves on my ogre characters. In this game crown and banner seem to have been the better choice. However, if he did bring ward saves he might have beaten you faster. What do you think?
8 ) Finally; how did you feel deployment played out? Did he manage to outdeploy you?

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Location: Oslo, Norway
@Chayal - good catch, no BOTWD then :) I do not believe the Frostheart as a Lord choice is worth it. I elaborated on it in another thread. TL;DR - it doesn`t hit hard and it isn`t significantly more survivable (hardly at all, in fact) than the Star Dragon.

@rusty - Lots of points here. Let`s take them 1 by 1:
1) going in against leadbelchers is suicide. 8 strong = 28 shots on average. Moving to short range (should be doable, considering I have to close in), he`s hitting on 4s. 14 hits. Wounding on 6s = 2.5 wounds prior to armour saves. That`s on top of Maneaters with 2x poison shots per model and 2 Ironblasters. I don`t see this as a winning play and even if I charge him, he`s steadfast unless I can deal over 17 wounds (not likely). Furthermore, he has way more drops so the Leadbelchers will be placed diagonally from my monsters, so that I can only land vs stubborn stuff.
2) I too believe this deployment was a bit poor, but then again with the last analysis the best bet for me here is to engage full-on without the block, so I guess it`s fine. Again, Leadbelchers are steadfast so it`s not that big of a deal.
3) He spent Gnoblars to draw me out. If he places them in front of Leadies, he has to deploy them significantly further back, he limits his own movement and, unless he moves them up quite a bit, they block himself as well.
4) Those were not PG. They were Spears that were proxied, as written under the deployment photo. I didn`t want the Spears to move any closer, I was very comfortable to have them at the edge of Apotheosis/Soul Quench so his "block" was helping me more than anything. I couldn`t take out a cat because soul quench only has 18" range. Thus, I`d have to move up enough for the Leadies to have a charge on me, not something I`d like.
5) I had a 4++ from winds and he was never hitting me with 6 I believe. He also failed a fear test in there and I rolled well for Apotheosis.
6) I don`t know, but he was stubborn AND steadfast regardless. Not by enough.
7) If he had taken the ward saves I would`ve soul quenched the gutstar. Stubborn is not an issue vs me as he`s steadfast.
8) Deployment was almost perfect. The Griffon Noble was a bit off and the Spears were a bit far East. Other than that I got everything I could ask for, given his superior amount of drops. Again, the mistake was not going all-in and praying the Star Dragon would live through one turn to be able to combo-charge with the frosty. If the Noble had been better deployed, he could`ve joined in as well. These 3 hitting home would likely be game over.

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I finished the 2nd mounted mage conversion and have started basecoating the characters. I also finished the Star Dragon`s 100x50 base (at last!), using a custom base from Micro Art Studios and one of the old "great eagles" as a statue. Lots of greenstuff to make it all meld together and rocks + grass to make it fit into the rest. There`s still a lot of work to be done paint-wise, but I`m getting somewhere at last:

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Better pictures are coming when things are done ;) Just some WiP for now!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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