Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

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Re: Ferny's MSU: A Swordmaster/Nicene Hybrid - inc Full BatRep

#31 Post by Ferny »

Deployment:

As promised, here's a Battle Chronicler page for our deployment:
Image

The ruined fortress thing was a spooky chapel which would cause D6 damage on a 4+...not at all what I want in my deployment zone for MSU! So i steared well clear, hence the wierd gap in my deployment and unfortunate bunching in my centre-left.

Here's a shot of Alex's whole battle-line:
Image

My right flank:
I placed my helms to deal with his dogs and be free to then wrap round the flank/rear of the army whilst leaving my reavers, eagles and RBT free for more serious duties. I also put a unit of DPs here to wrap round and present some teeth on this flank. The RBT went there too - after my last game I felt with two flyers it was a liability as they could charge it, destroy it, and slingshot in a direction of their choice. This right flank was out of their way but still very much in range of skullcrushers and warriors, both solid targets. Lastly a unit of swordmasters to provide a bit more muscle, a guard for the RBT and a bit of bait possibly to try to split their forces to focus more on this flank. My eagles also went here - out of range of the hellcannon until needed (not that I thought they'd be the priority target, but in such a target rich environment they could be hit on an unlucky scatter. In hindsight this flank feels week - a unit of lions or even the pheonix guard (and loremaster) would have really re-enforced this flank, making it more enticing for his forces to split and giving me more scope to actually deal with them rather than just delay.

Most of my right flank:
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And now with dragon princes visible too, and some context from where the centre joins up:
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Left Flank:
When the trolls went down I knew where I'd want my sisters, my archers and my flaming dragon princes. This unit at least I had a plan to deal with. Given that vomit gives no AS and Throgg is scary strong in combat I wanted them dead before they struck through shooting. If I did engage them in combat with my flaming princes then I want them to be killed over-overwhelmingly and quickly to avoid return attacks! Unfortunately they are being baby-sat by the flame-proof DP. I didn't really have a plan to deal with him, but flaming dragon princes wouldn't be much help. They've also got a chariot with them giving a good threat range and decent support.

His flank:
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My extreme left:
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And my moderate left:
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Centre:
I also had a sort of plan here, albeit more of a delaying one than a killing one. But I thought between two units of reavers and two of eagles I could slow things down...but a lot would depend on what his flyers do.

Alex's centre and right:
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Re: Ferny's MSU: BatRep #2 - vs WoC

#32 Post by Ferny »

I'll update this report tomorrow or Wed when I get a chance to write it - bed time now! Any comments on deployment welcome, along with predictions and tips on how to deal with Tough Flying Gribblies with Armour and Ward (and Flaming Ward) which can eat you alive in combat :mrgreen: .
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Re: Ferny's MSU: BatRep #2 - vs WoC

#33 Post by Nicene »

Looks like you'll have to aim your bolt thrower at the DP and hope for the best!
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61399]my MSU army list/battle reports[/url]

[quote="Nyeave"]Omg it's a parrot chariot - a parriot... :D[/quote]
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Re: Ferny's MSU: BatRep #2 - vs WoC

#34 Post by Ferny »

I still owe the WoC batrep, plus last night I fought two turns against skink spam MSU (12 units of 10 cohorts!, one cheap cowboy, 6 krox, 2 sallys, 2x3 rippers, 1 ancient steg and a toad). I intend to write that up too - 2 rounds should be quick :mrgreen: :oops: .

MSU Musings

Seeing various discussions, particularly between Lord Anathir and Swordmaster have got me thinking about the fundamentals of MSU. Incidentally, I think these lists probably *need* a decent shooting element (possibly multiple RBTs) and heavy cavalry to help force the issue against castlers and Big Nasty Flyers which both present pretty tough counters to this style IMO.

I think all the units in the list fit the role well: either multiple attacks, high S+low frontage, fast, armoured or powerful(ish) shooting. I think this is definitely a list to play with. There's not a lot left to shave off at this stage - everything is at min model count and there are very few command models...the next step in its evolution would I think be to kill off units (probably starting with 5 swordmasters) to buy commands. The other option is to cut the character budget, but I feel both do valuable jobs and currently I'm happy with them and their performance. I'm also interested in putting the BSB on an eagle and joining the mile high club (what do you mean it doesn't mean that?) but I'll wait until I get used to this list before doing anything so radical.

The only unit which doesn't fit well is the Phoenix Guard. I feel they should be excellent in low point games or MSU because of their ward giving them essentially double wounds, but I reckon (based on *very* limited experience, but I'm impatient and don't get many game sessions to test things) they simply don't do enough damage to warrant their relatively heft price-tag. Lack of stubborn also means that as a bunker, some bad whiffs on ward saves and they're not as reliable as lions and could relatively easily lose steadfast, assuming 10 ever have it! Lions meanwhile have the added benefit of cube allowing characters to pick or choose whether they fight.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: BatRep #2 - vs WoC

#35 Post by Ferny »

How to convert MSU style into a more condensed MSU/MMU list for speedier games?

What I'm really learning from this, apart from anything else, is that - as a slow player to begin with - I really will *not* be able to pull of MSU in a tournament setting. The thinking takes too long. The positioning takes too long. Even the damn physical moving takes to long. But I do enjoy the style and I think there are elements of it I can take forward as they are.

Things which work:
MSU cavalry. Since the new book launched I'm very used to MSU cavalry support from core, with my default having been 2 reavers, 2 helms and 1 archers, but I've mix-matched around quite a bit. These units have long threat ranges and with their high movement are generally relatively straight forward to position. MSU brings the addition of 1 or ideally 2 dragon prince units, which really adds some kick here. If I don't need to shave points from special I'll keep both as they've proven useful and fun, but I don't think the list falls apart with just 1 so long as I have 1-2 helms in core.

Lion cubes. These guys lose out on the banner of world protection in MSU and if they are depleted by magic or shooting they lose out on attacks. But they also force opponents to split their fire between units, give me more drops, act as stubborn road blocks to pin units in place (so long as they don't all die), are multiple character bunkers and are generally fun. It's wierd however to think that 2 units with full command and banners of discipline and gleaming cost the same as a full unit of 20 with FC and BotWD. And three units obviously cost as much as a deathstar of 30, more if they have FC. The cost of these small units isn't insignificant and when you look at it like this you can see the clear logic which drives big blocks with the banner. But I maintain that the small blocks can and do work because 10 S6 attacks on such a small frontage is pretty brutal, and that's the style I wanna run with, so they're in (at least 2, three if I can afford it).

BSB and lord-level caster: these are clearly essential, although I think the details of both can be tailored to choice. So long as the lord level caster chooses the book, Swordmaster :wink: .

Sisters and RBT: I think this rare shooting base is proving solid. In all three of my games (I know, I know, I'm sorry about the reports :| ) they've proven useful. Game 1 vs nurgle daemons, combined with the reaver bow, they dealt with the beasts, and the archers then dealt with the GUO. Game 2 vs WoC they dealt with the trolls and helped with skullcrushers. Game 3 vs skinks and friends...well, I don't wanna give the game away, but they helped here too.

What I'm not sure about:
Core shooting. So far sisters+RBT have been supported by a big shooting base from core. In dealing with regen (trolls) this has been essential. I don't know how much of this core shooting I could afford to remove (presumably to replace with helms, which would free me up to lose a DP unit more happily, although in turn what would I then use those points for...either 2xRBTs or to actually buy my MMU elite unit). Mind you, I could drop this DP unit anyway, although then I'd be left with just 2xreavers,1xhelms and 1xDP for cavalry...and now I've felt the joy of double DP this doesn't seem like enough.

Swordmasters. These boys are destined to die. Really as 5-man squads there's no way around it, except my initial plan of flank charges, but that role always seems to go to the faster cavalry units which can get into position and I find SM are either supporting white lions in the front (still very points-effective attack frontage) or providing a speedbump with teeth, like a less manoeuvrable exploding eagle. They're fun and I think they probably work and I love them for an MSU force, but these boys are my real time sap. I often find they don't quite have a role and the amount of thinking I seem to need to devote to deploying and moving them in a mutually supportive way with everything else is too, too time consuming.

Pheonix Guard. As I said in my last post, I don't think these guys fulfill enough of a role in MSU, where every unit really needs to do something. WL are just as tough against shooting. The whole army is fairly Big 6 spell proof (and those are the ones which will cut through you even if you have the banner - in fact - *especially* if you have the banner as you'll have bigger units). We're vulnerable to MMs, but actually, through redundancy of units we're not that bad against them. PGs stand the best chance here, but few armies have lots of MMs to throw at you so actually I think that storm can be weathered.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: BatRep #2 - vs WoC

#36 Post by Ferny »

Swordmasters or Pheonix Block:

At some point Lord Anathir suggested a block of White Lions to bolster Swordmaster's MSU forces. While I love them as a block I think they work well as cubes and will be retaining them in that role. I think MSU cav core (with possible archers), MSU WLs and MSU DP(s), along with min sisters and RBTs will still play like MSU, even if I have one medium block of infantry as a hammer, but should be much quicker for me to play, making it viable to take to a tourney. And for me that decision is between swordmasters and phoenix guard.

Swordmasters:
Now, I know swordmasters are out of favour and I know why. I never took them in 8th before trying MSU (where they have a niche role to play) and I know all the arguments against them - I make them myself. And I've read Seredain's spirited defence of them (in the specific context of high magic)...and while I recognise all his points as solid, I'm still not convinced. But actually, what things really threaten them?

1)Massed BS shooting. Who still takes that? High elves and dark elves (RBTs and core), wood elves and TK (but how many of these do you see?), dwarfs (organ gun, xbows, fireblunderbussthingamyjigs) and chaos dwarfs (not allowed at the next tourney). Anyone else? Still a risk unless it can be neutralised by magic (loremaster or high ward, maybe others).

2) Magic. BotWD. Nuff said. Big 6's can still sneak through, but that has ever been so. Bonus from BotWD includes daemons, daemon prince, dwarf runic war machines, death snipes and miscast protection. Downside include losing the general's leadership banner if he takes advantage of the miscast protection.

3) Impact hits. We're not stubborn like lions or warded like PG. Solutions...high magic/loremaster regen, kill chariots as a priority (difficult if they're WoC gorebeast ones though...though I'm pleased to say I am starting to manage it with flank charges and magic), steadfast.

4) Thunderstomp. Solutions. Kill it before the end of the combat phase! Steadfast. loremaster regen/Shield of Saphery/Mindrazor.

5) Hordes. Though to be fair, we'll chew them up too. Solutions. Again, high ward, loremaster...and worth bearing in mind this would have been a problem with MSU, so the same solutions present themselves: thin it down first before entering combat.

6) Witch elves. In a category of their own, given that they get more attacks, re-rolls and poison (albeit S3 and no armour). At least PG deny re-rolls from round 2 and have a ward save, and S4 still hurts them.

7) Anything else?

Pros: 2A at WS6 and S5, plus supporting attacks. It's a decent hammer, be it against infantry, heavy cavalry, nurgle or anything. Also, I have the models and they're painted!


Phoenix Guard:
Well PG are more resilient than SM in all of the above, with the one exception of magic as I would give them the Razor banner rather than BotWD. This means they're worse against runed war machines but better against any other template. It also means no miscast protection, which therefore favours a low-casting value lore/loremaster. In a bigger block, with razor banner, they're on a par for armour busting, they lose a WS but that probably balances by gaining re-rolls, except against: high I characters, against whom the SM WS advantage is probably lost as well; or ASF elves, where their resilience and first strike counts in their favour. They lose an attack from the front rank, but probably gain it from the back rank once swordmaster casualties are taken into account. They really do answer so many of the swordmaster questions. The biggest downside is that I only have 10 assembled and painted, although I do at least own all the models I'd need, so at least it's only time not money which is the issue here.

Please can someone convince me that swordmasters are the way forward here! When started writing all this I thought maybe their weaknesses were overstated in this relatively low BS meta and with some sort of magical support (shadow/high/loremaster/other?), but now I've almost talked myself out of it... :cry:

Lore choice:
I think both those units would benefit from shadow (which also favours shooting). This also has the benefit of having hexes which don't need big units on my side to be cast and RIP spells to minimise their magic phase.

High magic makes sense with the swordmaster especially (ward), though I don't know how I'd keep the wizard safe (edge, fencers blades, crown?), but walk between worlds is huge, flames of the pheonix is great for MSU, the sig MM is good, hand of glory is good. Very good support lore really. Arguably not suited to some of the tougher WoC or Empire builds though.

I'm not sure that anything else really suits. Heavens or Light maybe? Death? Fire, beasts, metal and life probably not? Loremaster is still a good fit - very flexible.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: BatRep #2 - vs WoC

#37 Post by Ferny »

Points: How to fit it in?
Ideally I'd like 23 PG with FC and razor banner (420), but this unit would probably still be effective at 20 (375), 18 would be my lowest offer (345). Once they start losing models from rank 3, and it does happen even to PG, then they cease to fulfill the roll I need of them.

Swordmasters are a funny beast. 20 (340) models 4-deep would still kick out 20 attacks, and unlike PG I don't mind losing models so much from the back ranks...which is just as well, because they will die quick. I just don't know whether 20 is enough to absorb enough attacks?

So my target points to save is 340-420.


Here's what I'm starting from:

Characters - 485
Loremaster: BoH, Ring of Fury, Shield of Merwyrm, Warrior Bane - 330
Noble BSB, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Reaver Bow, PoS - 155

Core - 605
5 silver helms with shields – 115
25 Archers - FC - 280
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105

Special - 995:
5 Dragon Princes, banner, flame - 165
5 Dragon Princes - 145
5 Sword Masters - 65
5 Sword Masters - 65
5 Sword Masters - 65
10 White Lions, FC, gleaming pennant- 165
10 White Lions - mus, champ - 150
10 White Lions, FC, discipline - 175

Rare: 310
2xEagles - 100
RBT - 70
5x Sisters - 70
5x Sisters - 70

I cash in the three units of swordmasters for 195. I then lose either a DP (340) or the small lions unit (345) to cover either the swordmasters or a small PG unit, or I jack both in (490), which would get me the big PG unit and an extra RBT. If I do lose the dragon prince unit I think I'd want to switch 12 archers for a second unit of helms, in which case I almost certainly *do* want the RBT to make up for the shortfall in shooting.

The most radically changed list I suggest would be this:
Characters - 485
Loremaster: BoH, Ring of Fury, Shield of Merwyrm, Warrior Bane - 330
Noble BSB, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Reaver Bow, PoS - 155

Core - 600
5 silver helms with shields – 115
5 silver helms with shields – 115
13 Archers - FC - 160
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105

Special - 935:
5 Dragon Princes, banner, mus, flame - 175
10 White Lions, FC, gleaming pennant- 165
10 White Lions, FC, discipline - 175
23 PG, FC, Razor - 420

Rare: 380
2xEagles - 100
RBT - 70
RBT - 70
5x Sisters - 70
5x Sisters - 70

2,400pts

15 drops including characters
107 models

Question for the MSU players:
What does this list lose compared to the first, true MSU list?

I gain a target for war machines, but to be fair, the target has a 4++ ward, can deploy wide if need be, and the entire unit won't die to a good stone thrower shot, so I don't think that's too big a loss. I lose my speed bump swordmasters, but they weren't doing enough for me and I still have 2x reavers and 2x eagles, on top of 2x sisters in extremis, so I should still be able to play the delaying game, albeit with less bite than before. I lose drops, but I still probably out-drop most lists, and can have an easier to conceive deployment plan with fewer units. I've lose the hitting power of the second unit of DPs for silver helms, but 'upgraded' the shooting power of 12 S3 bows to a second set of 6 S4AP bolts.

Critically, I've lost units, and thus combination options. That was after all my intention, in order to speed the gameplay up, but is this likely to alter vastly how I play the game? Can this list still play for the movement and multi-charge wins?

Question for non-MSU folks:
My other concern is looking at the list from the perspective of where I started from: WL:PG dual blocks. That is a tough combination and is rightly a favoured build by a lot of players. Given that I've recently dropped the Phoenix, the only real difference between this list and my 'regular' list is splitting the WL in two (plus spawning a bonus eagle) and losing the banner, a fairly straight swap between a scroll mage and the DPs, and switching the AM for a LM. It really is like coming back to my roots, but risking no scroll and randomly dropping the banner. What do I gain for these 'downgrades'? Is the MSU approach enough to counter these losses (especially given my reduced unit count with the big PG block).

Also, the PG unit isn't a deathstar (no real combat characters), it isn't buffed by high magic (except the ring) and there's still no BotWD in the list (doesn't suit this build IMO). Can it, in combination with the rest of the list, take out the toughest stuff out there? I'm hoping so.
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Re: Ferny's MSU:How to incorporate a large block into MSU style?

#38 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

One can always count on you to provide interesting and elaborate explanation on where you come from and what you try to achieve! Start adding diagrams and you will end up with a very interesting as well as valuable tactics articles :)

Unfortunately, I don't have time that much at the moment to address many of your observations. So let me start with the main thing, does "big" unit fit into MSU concept. In short, it does. You are still required to move to get any of the elements in the right position. Your PG will be a pivotal regiment of the army. You may count on some enemies to go right after it and it can be used against them to form a good battle plan. It provides some protection for the characters as I am sure at least one of them is going to end up in that unit.

It is of course a deviation from the principle that no unit is expensive enough to attract more attention that others or that it is too valuable to be sacrificed for the greater good. However, it is a concious change due to specific reasons. You still have enough elements to out deploy the enemy and place PG as last where they are the most needed. You can use their resilience where usually MSU is fragile. You have unit to break steadfast and you can also use them aggressively. And you are still required to move in unison with other regiments and create combined charges.

And no, I am not going to even try to convince you to get Swordmasters back, I want you to walk your own path and discover your own style, my young padawan! :)

Cheers!
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Re: Ferny's MSU:How to incorporate a large block into MSU style?

#39 Post by Ferny »

So that all started because I had too many units to co-ordinate so I thought I basically needed to combine some of them into a single block. Well, after all that I've just read Lord Anathir's suggestions for mounted nobles on SMs thread and I actually really like the starlance+tricksters shard noble, who would offer a strong counter to heavy cav, cowboys and even the third eye guy (except doing the maths it probably isn't for the latter). Still, it's a good niche and he fits in well with a MSU cavalry force as he can either bolster the silver helms or join one of the dragon princes. It would however leave me without a mass attack output with the SM gone and not replaced by massed infantry.

Still, something to consider:
Replace 3x5 SM (195) with
Noble, barded elven steed, dragon armour, starlance, TOTS, enchanted shield, great weapon (149+46 spare)

Or more radically:
Replace 3x5 SM (195) and A.N. Other Unit with
Prince, barded elven steed, heavy armour, shield, great weapon, dragonhelm, dawnstone, star lance, TOTS (262)
and possibly mount the BSB (not sure if he should get an equipment change or not mounted - add lance, but I like PoS, reaver bow could still have utility, not sure what's best protection with dawnstone taken, maybe give prince 5+ and switch reaver for dawnstone on BSB?...).

This is quite a radical departure for me - I've never run dual lords and I've only a couple of times run cavprinces. I don't know whether it's sensible. I don't know how well it meshes with MSU lists (his delivery units are going to be small). I don't know whether he can get away with just starlance instead of +3S blade.

I wouldn't have even considered it, but the role of mobile hard hitter is very useful in this list and while the noble points the way, the prince really does it. He's also got the potential to be much more tanky, so he is versatile, fulfilling two roles. Mind you, he's more expensive, and in LA's list he instead has two mounted nobles rather than just my one or my one prince. Still, in its way, this is not that dissimilar to Nicene's Frosty in MSU.

In any case, I guess the risk with both noble and certainly prince is losing the MSU advantage and getting swamped...
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#40 Post by Ferny »

Lords: 330
Linnaeus, Loremaster: BoH, Shield of Myrwyrm, Warrior Bane, Ring of Fury: 330

Heroes: 325
Lacertus, Noble BSB: barded elven steed, lance, dragon armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of strength: 176
Ikaros, Noble: barded elven steed, dragon armour, shield, great weapon, starlance, TOTS, luckstone: 151

Core: 604
8x Silver Helms FC (214)
5xReavers+mus (90)
5xReavers+mus (90)
18 Archers+FC = (210)

Special: 810
5xDragon Princes + champ+banner+flame(175)
5xDragon Princes + banner + gleaming(160)
10x White Lions+FC+Discipline (175)
10x White Lions+FC (160)
10x White Lions+Champ (140)

Rare: 330
5xSisters (70)
5xSisters (70)
RBT (70)
RBT (70)
Eagle (50)

Drops: 14 including characters
Models: 92
Banners: 6+BSB

I'm quite happy with these changes - I think this army keeps its MSU feel (although Christ the S is emphasised over all else here!) but remains strong enough against some of the tough, common match ups (empire and WoC).

BSB:
It's rare that I run mounted characters - I tend to take strong cavalry support elements but focus on our elite infantry. However, given that I needed to reduce my model count to speed up game-play I invested in two mounted nobles. The first, Lacertus, is a simple 21pts mounted upgrade from the foot BSB I was running, and actually makes him more tanky and more aggressive in combat, at a cost of the reaver bow. I really like this build - he still has utility, he gains mobility (which is great in a BSB) and he isn't as vulnerable as the eagle BSB. I love that he should be able to take a few hits (I hope) and the tankyness beyond that is really just a bonus. The PoS on the mounted BSB serves a different role than the Reaver BSB - combined with the lance it can be *even more effective* than the starlance, and cheaper to boot, allowing me to give the BSB a re-rollable 1+ to keep him alive (his primary objective). Alternatively, if the 2+ bunker unit tank the charge he can then grind out S7 attacks on round 2 - not too shabby. His 'default' location would be with the silver helms, which have some model redundancy from cannons, can sit in the centre for BSB re-rolls without forcing hard reaver bow/combat move/protect BSB type decisions which I faced in the previous list (otherwise he would either drag DPs in or lose the centre would lose his benefits if they flank). He also makes an otherwise lack-lustre unit quite respectable in combat (comparable to the dragon princes really). He's not magical vs ethereal (though his buddy is), but the flipside is that he can hurt BotWD elves in the mirror (as can Ikaros once he drops the lance). All in all, a very solid build for a utility and protected BSB, so long as you support it with the right bunker options.

Noble:
I actually prefer the above build to the starlance build, but as I needed to eat up some of my spare model points I invested in a second mounted noble, Ikaros. Both together present a very considerable combat threat against high T/AS/Wd opponents, but they can separate equally well. His default location, if not with the helms or solo, would be with the gleaming DPs. Gleaming should help prevent him running off if a combat goes unfavourably, and they lack a champion so that they need to be 2-shotted before losing LoS. Not a huge protection, but it is something. If I'm not facing cannons I can more confidently put him in the flaming unit if deployment dictates that to be the better location. I'm running enough cavalry in this list that if his unit does get depleted and he doesn't charge into the 'safety' of combat he might even join a unit of reavers. I'm happy to have got TOTS back in as it is invaluable against some opponents, and the star lance should help me feel more confident charging MC or cowboys, and he even gets to use his GW for (non ASF) S6 attacks in T2, albeit at AS3+, so he's a major glass cannon. Both nobles are flameproof, giving them more options against certain opponents, and the 6++ is just a bonus.

Shooting:
To fund the boosted silver helms I had to drop some archers, but by dropping an eagle I was able to match the difference with a second RBT which I'm happy about as I think the list was potentially missing this. This also goes some way to cover the loss of the reaver bow. I've still got two units of sisters vs flaming and ethereal (plus loremaster) so I think I'm reasonably covered on that front (along with two magic combat weapons - what a luxury).

Infantry
I now have three blocks of stubborn lions, which should anchor me well for a turn of incomings and hopefully allow me to counter-charge with cavalry or even archers. All three units have champion to help vs flyers (a big threat for MSU). I re-invested the banner+mus of one unit into DP command which I thought would need them more in this build, but the other two units both have FC, giving me two 2nd rank bunker options for the LM in addition to the archers if I really do want to hang back. One of the lion units has the banner of discipline for a cheap Ld10, so this will obviously be my default location. I'm aware that with no PG and no SM, and all my attacks being high S (at least on the charge) that I'm lacking in combat threat to take out hordes, so my archers get FC to help in a possible combat role (also as insurance against getting charged by flyers etc). This is almost a case for seaguard, but I just can't afford the points and I'd rather have the range.

Redirects
Well, I sacked an eagle so I'm now down to 2 reavers and 1 eagle (plus sisters or any other small unit at a push). I don't think this is too bad, given my ranged threat and the cavalry+nobles threat projection.

Verdict?
What do you think? I reckon everything has a place in this list, but it seems vulnerable as hell to massed attacks! I'm wondering whether I should switch a unit of WL for swordmasters for some increased damage output? Is my starlance just too vulnerable with TOTS - should I take dragonhelm (1+/2+ SV) + golden crown instead? Or simply switch the luckstone for charmed shield? Any other comments?

Edit: Obvious credits for this list development from Swormaster's thread and discussion with Lord Anathir.
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#41 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

I am very happy to see that some discussion we had in the other army list topic is an inspiration for your own army evolution. Thanks a lot for credits too but you need to remember you contribute to these a lot!

What I like about your army is that it is similar but different. You have similar characters set up but I am leaning more toward 4 of them rather than 3 simply because I can assemble that army faster. So if both of us have slightly different set up we can add to each others experience.

Your core selection support mounted nobles more than mine and probably that is why I think I will get back to my infantry based core selection. 8 SH is a unit that can act as bodyguards for both mounted nobles or for any you choose to attach to them but as unit on its own it is also a threat. In fact it was suggested to me after last game that I should combine two small regiments of SH into one so that they can be more dangerous.

It is also very interesting to see only Lions and Dragon Princes in specials. And I would encourage you to play with the set up if only to see if you really need Swordmasters. You have used them in a different way anyway. My first reaction would be to try and convince you to take one unit of warriors of Hoeth but I am going to ask you to try 3 white lions units instead.

While our discussion was dominated by the case of nobles I also think it is equally important to be ready to play without them. It seems that the investment in their presence and equipment is accompanied by high hopes as to their performance. I do hope they will greatly add to the flexibility of the army. But I also remember you need a plan B!

Any games in the pipeline so that you can see how the new army works?

Cheers!
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#42 Post by Ferny »

Cheers SM - I'm looking forward to comparing experiences with similar but different lists. I'm going to the club tomorrow evening, will hopefully get a game in then. I'll have an enforced time-limit as I'm working straight afterwards so it'll be a real test of my SpeedHammer skills if nothing else.

List change: inclusion of swordmasters
Having now slept on it I think the three lion blocks is a mistake in this list. The theory was that any one of them can act as a stubborn line-holder (assuming it lives) enabling the counter charge, while also being a strong unit in its own right (albeit needing support) to kill or wound high T/AS stuff. However, having now invested in a second noble and lost four infantry units, I have much fewer units to actually benefit from the counter-charge opportunity! I also have a very obvious weakness against high A units (e.g. hordes, but also I guess multi-A models like Warriors, Saurus, Hammerers etc). Both these weaknesses are plugged by switching one unit to swordmasters so I think I'll do that now at list-design stage. I'll have the opportunity to evaluate whatever my 'final' list is post-games. At least the tourney will force me to stick with a list without 'tweaking' or 'optimising' between each game.

Support vs point scorers:
Interestingly, in terms of 'point scorers' vs 'support units' I kind of see this list as being almost exclusively point scorers. Reavers and eagles obviously aren't, and there'll be match ups where my shooting is less favourable. But obviously my elite infantry and dragon princes are, as are my nobles (including BSB now) and I'd say the helms are too in the context of the nobles. Here's where it might get contentious, but I actually think the strength of shooting is sufficient to score points from small units and not just to weaken large units. I also think that against some otherwise poor match ups the archers are a solid combat unit too (I'm thinking empire infantry and VC zombie spam from experience of what I face at the club, but I'm sure there's more). They kinda help with the swordmaster switch to plug that gap where massed attacks matter.

List queries - how to kit out the non-BSB noble?:
Having slept on it I'm also becoming more and more convinced that TOTS will have to go. The 'point' of the mounted nobles is to provide high S attacks which negate armour to enhance the threat range of my (probably) cavalry units. If they're tanky they can also consider going solo, or if there are no cannons they could consider joining infantry (though I'd be wary of spells targetting them still). As such the PoS stays as it fits perfectly on the BSB, who more than anything needs to stay alive (re-rollable 1's). And the starlance stays as it allows my noble to do what otherwise I could be doing with a 10pt dragon prince champion upgrade. But of the 20pt remaining magic item budget I fear that without some protection I simply won't get into combat with him and he'll not get the benefits of TOTS, whether I take it or not! Besides which, the character I most want it for (Third Eye) has to challenge and I don't think I have favourable odds to win it, coupled with the fact that it means my lovely high S units can't then also use their A if I accept, and don't benefit from TOTS or the noble if I decline. So, options:

Current build - the anti-ward but super-squishy current version:
Ikaros, Noble: barded elven steed, dragon armour, shield, great weapon, starlance, TOTS, luckstone: 151
2+AS, 3+ in round 2 of combat, one re-roll, 6+ ward, 2++ vs fire.

Option 2: the best AS with fools version:
Ikaros, Noble: barded elven steed, heavy armour, shield, great weapon, starlance, dragonhelm, luckstone, potion of fools: 145
1+AS, 2+ in round 2 of combat, one re-roll, 2++ vs fire, 4th A on the charge and 6 points spare, though literally the only option to spend it on is the charmed shield for the DP champ!).

Option 3: AS vs cannon compromise version:
Ikaros, Noble: barded elven steed, heavy armour, shield, great weapon, starlance, dragonhelm, golden crown: 145
1+AS, 2+ in round 2 of combat, 2++ vs fire and 2++ vs first wound (and 6 points spare to spend it on the charmed shield for the DP champ).

Option 4: the anti-cannon with fools version:
Ikaros, Noble: barded elven steed, dragon armour, shield, great weapon, starlance, charmed shield, golden crown, pot of fools: 151
2+AS, 3+ in round 2 of combat, one re-roll, 2++ vs fire, 4th A on the charge.

The fact that I've listed all these shows my lean away from the initial TOTS build, despite my earlier enthusiasm to have it back in the list. I don't like the charmed shield (or enchanted, but that's taken!) with starlance as it forces your AS below 2+ in subsequent rounds of combat - that for me makes the case for the dragonhelm so that you can maintain your 2+ AS base and it actually gets 'enhanced' to 1+ on the charge. That leaves 10pts of enchanted items and/or talismans, with the golden crown being an obvious option to protect against stray cannon shots, given that he'll be either solo or in a small unit and the charmed shield hasn't taken. But I think potion of fools and luckstone are a valid alternative, the former capitalising on the star lance and the latter almost giving an extra wound against low S attacks. But I think I'm probably erring towards Build 3 (with its bonus canon save for the drakemaster as there's literally no other way to spend those points without losing something in this list):

Question: have we reached a consensus on whether the golden crown ward save is made before or after armour saves?
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#43 Post by Ferny »

Question above still stands, but here's the list with fluff added...

The Linnaean Host of Tor Carolus:

Lords: 330

Linnaeus was a low-born in the most hierarchical of the elven kingdoms: Caledor. Against this backdrop where lineage trumps ability Caledor offered no options for tutelage or patronage. Vowing to return and force the court to respect his name, Linnaeus left for the White Tower where he developed his martial and magical lore. Upon graduating, with only his armour, greatsword and thesis (“On Aqshy: the thread of Fire running through the 8 winds”) to his name, he took to a life of adventure. Reclaiming lost treasures to arm himself with and to fund a small force of warriors to pursue his end goal: to find and capture a dragon egg. Despite his haughtiness and cock-sure self-confidence, even he knew no dragon of Caledor would accept him as Master…but surely no noble of the realm could deny him his place at court should he return a Dragon Mage?

Linnaeus has carved out a new name for his nascent line and is now Lord of Tor Carolus, a small colony established off the coast of Araby as a raiding base to recover magical Caledorian artefacts from the Old World, lost since the War of the Beard.


Lord Linnaeus, Caledorian Warrior Mage (Loremaster): On Aqshy (Book of Hoeth), Shield of the Myrwyrm, Dragonbane Sword (Warrior Bane), Ring of Dragon’s Fury (Khaine’s Ring of Fury)

Heroes: 319

Linnaeus’ sons have benefited from and contributed towards their father’s rise and are now armed as well as any Princeling of Caledor. The eldest, Lacertus, proudly carries the Linnaean Banner: a dragon rising from the flames – a portent of a time to come. He often rides alongside his father, either holding the line or leading the charge. Ikaros, the more impetuous brother, is more commonly found with the war party’s cavalry contingents, trying to yield respect from the dragon princes or to impress the younger Reaver Knights.

Lacertus Linnaeus, Bearer of the Linnaean Banner (Noble BSB): barded elven steed, lance, dragon armour, dragonhide shield (enchanted shield), dawnstone, potion of dragon strength (potion of strength)
Ikaros Linnaeus, Noble, barded elven steed, heavy armour, shield, great weapon, wyrmlance (starlance), dragonhelm, golden crown

Core: 604
Many knights of Caledor who lack land, titles and privilege have flocked to Linnaeus’s banner. As a Lord, albeit only of a distant colony, Linnaeus now claims his right to muster a citizen levy.

The Linnaean House Guard, 8x Silver Helms FC (184+30=214)
Caledorian Reaver Knights, 5xReavers+mus (80+10=90)
Caledorian Reaver Knights, 5xReavers+mus (80+10=90)
The Citizen Levy, 18 Archers+FC = (180+30=210)

Special: 815
Linnaeus’s successes haven’t gone unnoticed in Caledor – but neither are they gratefully received. Two contingents of Caledor’s finest now march alongside him in battle to claim their homeland’s lost treasures for the true nobles of the land.
The White Tower has also taken an interest, sending a team of curators and librarians to catalogue his prizes.
It is to Chrace, however, where Linnaeus actually sought help, where he recruited two units of Chracian Rangers to track his Dragon’s Lair.


Icshnura’s Knights, 5xDragon Princes + champ+charmed shield+banner+flame (145+35=180)
Knights of the Dragon’s Scale, 5xDragon Princes+banner+gleaming (160)
The Lord’s Bodyguard, 10x White Lions+FC+Discipline (130+30+15=175)
Agrion’s Trackers, 10x White Lions+champ (130+10=140)
The Librarians, 10x Swordmasters+FC (130+30=160)

Rare: 330
Caledor is a prideful nation, but it does pursue combat to the exclusion of magic or ranged warfare. Many Ladies of Caledor become Fire or Dragon Sisters, elite archers who harness the magic of Dragon Fire in their magical missiles.
Meanwhile, the fleets and towers of Caledor bristle not just with knights and lances, but with Dragon-Claw Bolt Throwers, projecting the Dragon’s fury across the skies into oncoming armies.


Dragon Sisters, 5xSisters=70
Dragon Sisters, 5xSisters=70
Dragon-Claw Bolt Throwers, RBT=70
Dragon-Claw Bolt Throwers, RBT=70
Peloris, Giant Eagle=50

(While the Eagle could be a drakeling for fluff, I have a cool Hobbit Eagle which I want to use and I’m all fluffed out now)
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#44 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Great background for the army! =D> You should definitely write more and maybe add something like Prologue or Epilogue to your games the way Il Maestro did for my games! Well done and keep up the good work!

As to the question I was always treated that as a first save after it was clear the model is wounded. Then you go for armour saves. However, I don't know if it is the way people use it.

Cheers!
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#45 Post by Ferny »

Battle reports from a 3-game tourney to follow (one is fully written, just needs diagrams).

But first some list musings...

I've seen Swordmaster perform late-game combined charges which annihilate the surrounded enemy unit. I want to be able to achieve this too. At the moment I think I'm playing too defensively - I see big blocks at the start of the game and I think "avoid" and "go for the small win by taking his easy points". Beyond the obvious problem that I'm limiting myself with this thinking, there's also the huge issue that MSU armies bleed points like no-one's buisness. This is absolutely fine if those points are sacrificed to a higher cause, but it is important to remember that those 150pt units soon add up!

So, to pull off the combined charge:

You need dragon princes reasonably intact and not too far away from the action to provide flank/rear charges. I've noticed one unexpected consequence of the (really cool) mounted BSB build...I no longer have 'throw away' chaff clearing helms (2x5) now that they're an 8 man bodyguard, which also dictates their location to be fairly central. As a consequence of this I'm using my dragon princes as helms, which is getting them out of position bad-style. I think I need my core heavy cavalry back so that I can re-focus the dragon princes to join in the multi-charges or take on tougher opponents. I don't want to reduce my archer numbers because they're working well currently with other shooting, so that really means splitting the 8+FC into 2x5.

This means I'll probably have to go back down to a foot BSB. Now, with the Myrwyrm should he could take on a non-Reaver/PoS utility role (e.g. stubborn or MR caddy) but I think I like the reaver role best. An alternative would be Armour of Caledor+Halberd, though I feel this works best with BotWD for more of a ward save.

Potentially you need white lions to hold on stubborn. I'm concerned that against some units a 10 man squad will just vanish and there'll be no need for a break test to be passed. As such I'm thinking about increasing this anchor to 12 or 15. By the time you get to 15 then the BotWD starts to look more attrctive...

Finally, I think I need a second unit of 10 swordmasters to dish out the attacks. I'd fund this via scrapping the mounted noble. Hopefully with the three small units I started with merged into one I'll still be able to play quite quickly.
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#46 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

I may talk about it in the reply to the comments you left after my report but I can as well add it here too.

1. Cavalry may look as if it is always doing the heavy lifting but it is more due to the fact the charges by Dragon Princes look more spectacular. Yes, their speed is great asset and theoretically you can get to the flank/rear easier but if you limit yourself to the thinking that only cavalry can do it - you may find yourself at a loss of ideas if you happen to lose these units or get them weakened (which is not that difficult).

2. Experience is a great thing to have but I have been recently playing with something else that I have found out very helpful. Think about the ideal situation you want your units against particular tough regiment of the enemy. It is usually when you have two units of yours against both flanks of the foe as they have fewer attacks back. And see how much damage you can do by rolling dice. It is not a scientific experiment, not a statistical data or not even math hammer. But it will give you a feeling what units can do. And you can even assess the situation from the point of view of luck to an extend.

Thanks to that you might be less shy in committing regiments to fight. I would even encourage you to check it out quickly how your units would do in the frontal charges.

3. Last but not least - mentality. I had that problem at CanCon and while I won 6 out of 8 games I won them by a very small margin and that didn't get me many points. I didn't have to win by much more, i.e. I didn't have to win 20-0 to get to top 10 for example. But the attitude that I simply cannot tackle particular unit put me on the back foot and I automatically played defensively. You need to change that. Yes, you want hunt down enemy support but not as main targets but as the mean to achieve positioning for combined charges.

Looking forward to your reports!

Cheers!
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#47 Post by Taentagel »

Ferny,

When you were thinking about taking the noble/BSB onto foot have you considered swapping for a mage instead?

A good sig spell would add a good bit of backup a scroll would be a good addition to protect a unit at the right moment. For the points you are freeing up youcould get a useful mage.
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#48 Post by wamphyri101 »

Hi Ferny,

Like the idea of the MSU list but just dont think the silverhelms are worth it. I would replace for some more archers/reavers and then mount 1 noble on an eagle and BSB on foot

I ran a BSB in a unit of 10 shadow warriors with the loremaster in too and can work really well and running around you lines where needed. that or have the bsb in the WL and loremaster in the PG

Actually think two bare bones eagle riders could work pretty well for your list. Could keep them cheap with:

Noble, Eagle, Lion cloak, heavy armour, shield, lance
3 wounds at T4. 1+ vs shooting, 3+ in combat but you are only throwing them at WM/Chaff and maybe flank of knights
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#49 Post by Ferny »

Taentagel wrote:Ferny,

When you were thinking about taking the noble/BSB onto foot have you considered swapping for a mage instead?

A good sig spell would add a good bit of backup a scroll would be a good addition to protect a unit at the right moment. For the points you are freeing up youcould get a useful mage.
I'd love a second spellcaster (and scroll) - dual iceshards is great - but I just can't justify the points. If I had a Lv4 I might consider scroll instead of book but the loremaster just needs the book so for me the scroll is out for the minute.

I wouldn't switch the BSB out for *anything*. MSU is vulnerable to panic (small unit size), liable to break (lack steadfast) and potentially has a wide deployment (outside of general bubble), so the BSB is pretty much essential. I'd love 18" re-rolls, but sadly the griffon is just too big a target and investment to justify...
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#50 Post by Ferny »

wamphyri101 wrote:Hi Ferny,

Like the idea of the MSU list but just dont think the silverhelms are worth it. I would replace for some more archers/reavers and then mount 1 noble on an eagle and BSB on foot

I ran a BSB in a unit of 10 shadow warriors with the loremaster in too and can work really well and running around you lines where needed. that or have the bsb in the WL and loremaster in the PG

Actually think two bare bones eagle riders could work pretty well for your list. Could keep them cheap with:

Noble, Eagle, Lion cloak, heavy armour, shield, lance
3 wounds at T4. 1+ vs shooting, 3+ in combat but you are only throwing them at WM/Chaff and maybe flank of knights
Hmmm - tempting. One of the reasons I like helms is chaff and war machine hunting, but eagle (riders) can potentially do both at least as well, freeing up space for more (and more concentrated) archery. In the list where I had two nobles it wouldn't take much to upgrade one of them to ride an eagle rather than a steed (35pts, which actually would be saved from the magic item allowance by your build). Certainly could work - it would take a bit of points re-jigging but worth some thought and a try. I know nicene has good success with an eagle rider, and Solith seemed to be enjoying two, and even Swordmaster joined in the fun, so maybe it's time I crash the party too :lol: 8)
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#51 Post by Ferny »

OK, I've got a few more games under my belt and I'm starting to get a feel for this army. Not an expert level feel, but certainly a glow of experience is seeping into my games, so I'm going to write about some of the weaknesses I'm finding with using MSU compared to my default list (Razor PG: BotWD WL blocks). This isn't intended as a negative post but potentially to spawn discussion on how to tackle these weaknesses. I don't doubt that to some extent its because I'm comparing apples with oranges: MSU and WL:PG cannot be expected to behave the same and they don't...also I'm not expounding the virtues of MSU here, which counterweight these negatives...but I still think I'm encountering themed problems and I'd like to discuss them.

High Elf MSU Weaknesses:

Magical Defence:
1. No scroll. Other lists have an option to include a Lv1/2 caddy or not, but for MSU it really doesn't feel like an option. I mean, sure, you could, but that's a lot of points diverted away from essential combat or shooting prowess for something which the loremaster already covers bar the scroll. As mentioned in a comment above, I wouldn't ditch the book on the loremaster, but if I were to switch to AM then I might consider taking the scroll instead, especially for a high casting value lore.

2. Dispelling is also with just +2, albeit the book essentially adds +2 to this (statistically). This could be solved by using an AM instead of a loremaster. The loremaster is a nice fit for MSU because of the spell flexibility, and I'm not immediately sure what lore would suit an AM well, but this is an option.

3. Alternatively, Teclis solves all our problems in a SC permitted environment: he has a scroll, he dispels on +5 and he casts on +5...he also gets to choose spells to suit the list for each game...I've written a Teclis MSU list and I think he's well worth considering...

4. I feel we're vulnerable to more and easier spells than non-MSU lists. The reason for this is magic missiles: against bigger units you can absorb the losses, but against MSU they can wipe out entire units. Sure, you have more units, but you don't win the game by unnecessarily losing this advantage. We're also critically more vulnerable to spells like chain lightening or Slanesh's Cacophonic Choir. I find this makes dispel priority quite difficult.

Sure, we have an advantage vs nuke spells (e.g. dwellers, flames, final transmutation etc), but these are high casting value and can simply be swapped out for easier magic missiles. Maybe this is unfair: iceshard blizzard cast on a unit of 28 white lions affects 28 white lions, but the same spell cast on my MSU units only affects 10. But if those are the key 10 which are in combat it still hurts! I also feel that this is a wash with theoretically reduced effectiveness of augments so meh.

5. Another part of the reason for this is BotWD. There's no reason why we shouldn't include it in MSU...certainly we have the banner slots available for it, and the benefits are great...but the relative benefits aren't nearly as good as for non-MSU...for its price we could have a 25-33% larger unit (depending on command structure)! Our relative lack of heroes means we also lack sensible caddies for MR items, and our relatively small units gain relatively less from the points investment.

6. And talking of BotWD, it does so much more. Miscasts on small units is deadly. We also don't get its benefits vs scream, vs character busses, vs daemons or vs death (a lore which we also generally lack MR or wards against). Wowzers but that banner does a lot.

7. I've also (briefly) experimented with MSU PG. I feel they should be excellent: 10 PG for 150 take a lot of shifting. Another 25 points and they become an excellent Ld10 bunker for a general and an additional 20 rounds off their command to get you the best facings and for anti-DP protection. But dammit, they're neither the grinder nor blender they ought to be in MSU (lacking 3 ranks and Razor banner hursts), and some flubbed rolls and they're looking just as sad and depleted as anything else will. The natural response to this is to increase the unit size to 15 or 18 or even more and add the razor banner...and you can do this, but you start to lose the MSU feel. Why do I mention all that here? Because a list which sinks 300-450 points into PG has a unit which is resistant to a lot of magic! Coupled with a big unit with BotWD and magical defense becomes very solid for high elves, with or without a scroll. That is negated by MSU.

Character assassination:
It hasn't happened to me yet, except for a Doom and Darkness Hellcannon on my general's unit which promptly ran off the board in T2. But despite having lots of blocks to jump between, it doesn't take much incoming fire to make a bunker lose LoS. I'm constantly concious of this, and I think it affects my dispelling priority (badly).

Points efficiency:
I feel MSU should be efficient because we don't pay for ablative wounds or meatshields - all our points go into frontline services. However, many units benefit from a musician for re-forms, and a champion for vs characters.

Right, I'm falling asleep on the sofa, so bedtime. If I think of more I'll post :)
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#52 Post by Curu Olannon »

I agree with all your assessed weaknesses. This is why I don`t understand how such a list is supposed to cope with the various powerhouses out there. You don`t have the ranged threat to force your opponent`s hand, unless you`re in one of those matchups where the Loremaster (which is a true powerhouse) can run a one-man show. The inherent problem thus is that you cannot control the board, you are forced to advance and your entire army is weak vs magic, shooting and combat blocks you are unable to surround.

Just from the top of my head, a few lists that would pose a huge threat:
- DE shooty-avoidance with fighter flyers
- MSU Skink cloud Lizardmen
- Dwarf gunline with either double OG or a big unit of Irondrakes
- Chaos Dwarfs (virtually any build)
- WoC flying circus
- Wall of Nurgle DoC
- Shooty OK
- Wood Elves

Probably many more.
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Re: Ferny's MSU:tournament list; please critique;mounted nobles!

#53 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:I agree with all your assessed weaknesses. This is why I don`t understand how such a list is supposed to cope with the various powerhouses out there. You don`t have the ranged threat to force your opponent`s hand, unless you`re in one of those matchups where the Loremaster (which is a true powerhouse) can run a one-man show. The inherent problem thus is that you cannot control the board, you are forced to advance and your entire army is weak vs magic, shooting and combat blocks you are unable to surround.

Just from the top of my head, a few lists that would pose a huge threat:
- DE shooty-avoidance with fighter flyers
- MSU Skink cloud Lizardmen
- Dwarf gunline with either double OG or a big unit of Irondrakes
- Chaos Dwarfs (virtually any build)
- WoC flying circus
- Wall of Nurgle DoC
- Shooty OK
- Wood Elves

Probably many more.
A lot of the weaknesses I've identified stem from either not having BotWD or not having a scroll caddy, and the reasons for this are some combination of 'wasted' points on extra command models (relative to bigger units) and 'wasted' opportunity cost of unit-wide protection on small units. It's not the points inefficiencies per se which are causing me problems buy what I am struggling with though is the consequence of my (otherwise quite magically robust elves) now being much less so.

Regarding the match ups above, while some might be hard, the list isn't intended to be a direct response to my magical weakness right? I've actually faced a few of them - here's my (brief) assessment:

- DE shooty-avoidance with fighter flyers
Don't know - I faced vanguarding bus where everything except scouts, flyers and RBTs moved forward before T1. However, from that I gathered that: DE can be very, very fast, they can to a certain extent pick their fights and hit hard where they want to, and they can play the fleeing game. Also 4x RBT is tough for elves!

However, my list includes a good shooting base and dark elves drop just as easily as high elves. I've also got a good cavalry base with long charge-ranges...while they can flee from these, it gives me some breathing space. And vs fighty flyers I can to a certain extent dictate landing spots, should be steadfast for T1 and counter charge T2. I don't think it'd be easy (but nothing is). I don't think it's inherantly a bad match up though. Vs my two block army I think they'd run rings round that! However, I did face a fast-cav Lv4 death (MR2 in warlocks) with the DE and she was nasty. Short of wiping out her unit with missiles I don't have a great answer for her.

- MSU Skink cloud Lizardmen
I've fought this a lot against a good player. I don't think his list was optimised (too many skinks not doing enough) but various iterations have had 1-2 stegs, tetto eko, 2 scrolls, cowboys...

I've managed a mixture of small wins and losses here. My shooting base is quite good. He has to advance to me due to range. I can shield reavers/SMs behind knights and WLs. My archers make a convincing combat block, with enough bodies to absorb the shooting and enough grunt to kill skinks. My knights can flank him freely due to his leadership bubble. Ld10 re-rollable steadfast skinks is a roadblock, but not for long. These matches have so far come down to attrition. I'd like to do better in them, I feel there's scope for improvement, but they're not terrible.

- Dwarf gunline with either double OG or a big unit of Irondrakes
Well this is horrible no matter what list you bring. I did face this once, but meeting engagement and my opponent was a gentleman and didn't castle, so it isn't representative of what it can do. But OGs and Irondrakes have limited range, as do flame cannons, so it's only grudge throwers and cannons at long range, and there's not a lot worth shooting at with cannons. I could play boring and sit back and not loose too many points or I can do what any list would do and move forward with everything and try target saturation. We're not without options: cav and fast cav can try to get to the backlines, and combined with shooting and magic can help take out gyros. Units can shield other units and so many do present saturation problems. But I don't really have a good solution, I hate these lists, not just because they're good, but because they're boring and polarising IMO.

- Chaos Dwarfs (virtually any build)
Assuming gunline, see above, but I don't know their artillery so well so maybe sitting back isn't as safe as vs dwarfs. I don't really know the book well enough to comment, and the few games I've had against them were fairly blind (as in I didn't really know what their units did) so don't really contribute much to my understanding.

- WoC flying circus
As in triple chimera, disk BSB, nurgle death DP? Yeah, nasty. I'd struggle for sure.

I have fought DP, disk BSB, double crushers, double gorebeasts, hellcannon, friends. I can more or less handle the troops but I struggle to answer the third eye BSB or the DP. To be fair, I'd struggle with my 'normal' list too, but with the banner I might have more options.

- Wall of Nurgle DoC
This is quite fun to fight! They're relatively slow so you can pick some priority targets for shooting and wipe them out. MSU lets you get flanks etc (their board control isn't great) which help with crumbles. Their DPs or greater deamons aren't as scary as WoC. big infantry block of plaguebearers can be chaffed off the board. Not a friendly list for sure, but not terrible I think.

- Shooty OK
Don't know, never seen them. I imagine they might be quite frustrating though!

- Wood Elves
Don't know, not played the new ones. I haven't yet got a clear idea how I'd play them with my 'main' force though, so until I get some XP against them with any army I can't usefully comment about them in the MSU context.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#54 Post by wamphyri101 »

So in the beginning I tried using A loremaster & lvl 4. Though this can prove bloody good the majority of the time you are not getting the power dice you need plus its a lot of points in magic.

But..I have just started trying a Loremaster w near naked lvl3.

My loremaster has book & preservation and my archmage just have the forbidden rod (and once its popped its load he gets miasma'd out of the unit)

I have found this to be 120pts less expensive (only 550pts) than my old run plus you are not just rellying on magic.
The reason I mention this is a lvl3 light might really help you out.
- DE shooty-avoidance with fighter flyers
You now have S5 banishment or Net.
- MSU Skink cloud Lizardmen
Pha’s protection
- Dwarf gunline with either double OG or a big unit of Irondrakes
Pha’s, Net, the one that lets you double your movement & +1 attack

- Chaos Dwarfs (virtually any build)
Pha’s, Net, the one that lets you double your movement & +1 attack
- WoC flying circus
- Wall of Nurgle DoC
Pha’s, Net, Banishment, shems vs chimeras
- Shooty OK
Pha’s, Net, S5 Banishment, the one that lets you double your movement & +1 attack
- Wood Elves
Wood elves HATE Net.
Even speed of light giving you I10 WS10 mixed with miasma/iceshard can really screw people over
Imaging one phase with Miasma for BS shooting, Iceshard and PHA’s
Anyway, just musings.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#55 Post by Ferny »

Interesting idea. What would you drop to fund the Lv3? I take it you'd select light as the lore of choice, and sound reasons given...do you think it fits the list better than the other lores?

I haven't tried dual lord level casters yet - always seemed too points inefficient - but if I were to I think I like Loremaster as general with book and 2+AS with BotWD unit (nicely protected) and Death AM, possibly on an eagle (though I'd need to lose something to give him scroll/golden hat/something!). This way you you should force the opponent to let lots of loremaster stuff through cos he'll be more scared of death magic...that's the theory anyway. Obviously this set-up doesn't fit with my immidiate build - maybe I'd drop the ASS to fund scroll and hat for the eagle AM. After-all, magical defence isn't needed if I kill all their casters! But to be honest, I think I'd rather try this out in my 'normal' WL:PG build where I'd feel more comfortable making such radical experiments (and it's not such a big jump to up my Lv2 to a loremaster/Lv4 - no worse really than including a second noble or handmaiden, both of which I've experimented with). In MSU I wouldn't be able to evaluate the effectiveness of dual lord casters as I'd be testing it in an already very experimental setting for me...
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#56 Post by wamphyri101 »

It would be tough to find points.

If I was to run a death mage on eagle id probably give him Talisman of preservation and khaines ring. Means he could get the 3+ ward often and adds a bit of oompf vs any small unit that might try and get him (eagles/fast cav/skirmishers)

If I were to do the light option I would probably drop 5 sisters and 5 dragon princes.

I like the idea of light with MSU as it can really take advantage of the +1 attack spell
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#57 Post by Ferny »

Hmmm, nice build - certainly pushes him towards Lv3 though :(.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to lose that much to accommodate light. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't think I'd cope...
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#58 Post by Ferny »

Game today and I set the perfect trap (if I do say so myself). Well - we'll see...read to the end for the twist (no peaking).

Facing the hated dark elves (actually, they seem really fun to play - very bloody!). Incidentally, their war machine factories must be working over-time - are there any lists which don't take 4xRBTs?

Anyway, it's a good game - my cavalry are doing their thing against his RBTs, I deal with both units of warlocks early (a bit of luck here, but I'll take it when I get it). In the centre he has a hydra, 22xblack guard (lv shadow) 8-wide and 30 corsairs 2xhw 5-wide with BSB.

I charge the hydra with 5 silver helms to tank it and get them out of the way. Other stuff is happening elsewhere on the board and I get some good and bad breaks. But with his two blocks I want to tease them apart and do the classic swordmaster surrounds manoeuvre.

I set up two paired swordmaster/white lion units to bait and flank counter-charge, with dragon princes in the other flank, and added in an eagle as cheese for the trap. Arrows show rough facings below, though it was set up to force him to show me flanks watever he charges. There's also a large dangerous terrain woodland which I'm hoping I can use to disrupt steadfast if he goes in there (as well as losing a few to DT tests!).

DP-> Cor BG
^ V V Hydra
Eag ^ SH
^ ^ ^ WL
WL SM(LM) SM

I'm not sure that he's actually forced to take the bait, though I think I possibly have ranged superiority with loremaster and localised shooting strength (I think I out-deployed him, with a weighted flank - his xbows were way out of the picture stage right and the RBTs were busy either eating charges or shooting at cav for their lives, so my RBTs, sisters and loremaster could focus on the points!). So probably he couldn't sit it out, though maybe he could have advanced as a pair and not charged me?

I expected the WL facing the Black Guard to be *almost* wiped out but hold on stubborn 9 if charged, for me to then charge the flank with SMs and break them with the woods killing steadfast...though writing this I've just realised that BG have stubborn too :oops: . Fortunately he didn't really move these guys up (maybe he was scared I'd assasinate the Lv4, though she had a 4++ and he'd kill most of my unit before I could try, so...).

However, he did take the eagle bait - in he charged, I held, he destroyed me, and he over-runs into my left-most lions. Next turn I counter-charge with DPs in the left flank and both units of SM's in the right (two units gets slightly more attacks in and forces limited flank attacks to be spread against two thus keeping both more intact). I know he strikes first and I haven't done the maths to see how this should pann out, but I was hoping to do enough damage to remove steadfast if I won the combat, or cripple the unit if I didn't.

What I haven't said is that in his turn he got mindrazor off on them. This means they're striking first, with re-rolls (which I don't get, even on my non-GW DPs), wounding on 2's and re-rolling 1's! I probably should have fled with the eagle or held off on the charges for a turn, but I wanted to see what this set up could do, so in the spirit of enquiry I went for it. He scrolled iceshard blizzard but I did get -3WS miasma so he was hitting me on 5's, with re-rolls (thank goodness for small blessings). To protect my lord I challenged and he accepted with BSB - he'd have to hit and wound and me fail my 4++ parries for all three of his attacks to kill me, which is safer than facing 6 attacks from the corsairs.

I did a lot of damage (12 dead corsairs I think). In return he killed 4/5 knights, 2/10 swordmasters in each unit (4 total) and 7 white lions who were stuck in the front, so I lost the combat. Both units of swordmasters (inc loremaster) disengaged, but the lions and dragonprince held to prevent the pursuit.

Next turn he finished off the lions and the DP ran (preserving points), though he'd need double 1 to rally. The corsairs were reduced to around 15-20 and a couple of IF miscasts, forest problems and shooting and his BG were looking pretty MSU too.

Sadly we called it here due to time, but I still had two fairly intact swordmaster units, my backfield cavalry and an RBTs which I think between them could have dealt with what was left (at a high cost). I might not have won it, but it would have been a bloody fight back. He had 1 wound on his hydra, a chariot, 2 threatened RBTs, xbows miles away and an awkward begger of a pegasus lord (who killed my steadfast archer champion who'd charged him and broke the damn unit - I'd planned for them to tarpit him on static for ages - my fault for BSB being so far away!).

With hindsight, maybe I should have fled with the eagle, and if need be the white lions. This would have drawn the corsairs out of position. I still couldn't charge in my turn due to mindrazor, but I could continue to tease those two units away from eachother, pin-cushioning them as I do.

Or maybe I could charge despite mindrazor - by these results I would have won combat without all the frontal attacks on the lions, but he'd hold on steadfast 9 re-rollable) and we'd nuke it out next turn without mindrazor (hopefully), though it would expose a SM flank to BG...but that in turn would expose a flank to WL's (assuming I kill enough corsairs in T2 for too few replies that I win/hold) It'd be risky though, especially without stubborn lions if I were to lose.

In short - if they get it off - mindrazor is a nasty counter to the signature swordmaster move and all the careful positioning which goes into prepping it. Still, it kinda almost worked? Mind you - same goes for any other list - it's just not as frustrating!

Was excellent fun though!

Other highlights from today included a SM front WL flank charge onto plague flies with ward reduced to 6++, I kill 2 and wound the last one and he needs double 1 not to crumble...which he gets, restoring the whole unit and allowing his GUO to get in and I forgot to challenge him (oops! :oops: ). I was distracted by the amazing paintjob is the excuse I'm planning to use for that one (truly is gorgeous/fugly!).
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#59 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Just a quick question. did you mean re-rolls due to ASF or Hatred in the turn you charged into combat? In any case your knights should have attacked with full amount of attacks, although no re-rolls, as the units with ASF hit simultaneously, regardless of the initiative value.

Cheers!
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#60 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Hi Ferny,

Just a quick question. did you mean re-rolls due to ASF or Hatred in the turn you charged into combat? In any case your knights should have attacked with full amount of attacks, although no re-rolls, as the units with ASF hit simultaneously, regardless of the initiative value.

Cheers!
Never fear, we did it correctly this time (indeed - if it hadn't been for true ASF on my knights I wouldn't have committed to the charge) - I struck with my full 11 attacks from the DPs, but sadly no re-rolls, at the same time as he struck with his 2xA with hatred re-rolls from however many were on the DP flank. I was lucky to save my remaining DP on dragon armour's 6++ given S8 (in fact, as they were within the general's bubble, I think they maybe ought to have been S9?!, not that it has any material difference to my list)!

I've also realised that it looks like there's a lot of negativity in my recent posts. That's an unintentional but unavoidable consequence of me trying to achieve the second of two things. The first is to become a better player and learn to use a new style and 'get good' or better at using it and then to appply my improvements to any style I use. This includes trying to tweak and improve my list, partly in the search for "the" mythical list and partly to make it fit my playstyle, whatever exactly that is. The second is to try and 'break' the lists which I use, to test them to destruction (albeit in the context of my limited ability to use them properly :lol: 8) . I know given that context it's unfair of me to consider any list I try and fail with destroyed, but it might not be right for me.

Following the debate on the WL vs SM thread I'm wondering whether it's not the fact that SM are useful at MSU which makes me want to include a couple of small units in my WL:PG list, but the fact that I want a couple of MSU units to support that list with options on drops, baits and flanking manouvers.
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