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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:49 am 
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Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
First to 10 battle reports wins a prize?

Lol. Hopefully as we've both gone for roughly that same list thing we're onto something good...

I also realised that having 9 DPs is just silly if I want the bus to look good in terms of complete ranks (my OCD compels me). Be prepared for our lists to get more similar as I work out what to do with those 60-odd points I've found!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:53 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
First to 10 battle reports wins a prize?

Lol. Hopefully as we've both gone for roughly that same list thing we're onto something good...

I also realised that having 9 DPs is just silly if I want the bus to look good in terms of complete ranks (my OCD compels me). Be prepared for our lists to get more similar as I work out what to do with those 60-odd points I've found!


Awesome! I'm thinking maybe we should start a Co Battle Report thread where we both post our games and experiences as well as within our army blogs. It could turn into a Tactica on using the star dragon.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:35 am 
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Sounds like a plan. I'm in.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:04 am 
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Sweet I've got a game scheduled tomorrow at noon against ogres! No stomping for me!


Lvl 4 gut magic
Lvl 2 beasts
BsB wi dragon hide

15 iron guts

2x3 Mournfangs
Iron blaster
Iron blaster
4 Maneaters with something crazy.

Wish me luck! I'll be sur to take loads of pics.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:40 am 
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Got my ass kicked!

Here's Game 1:

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45209&p=834663#p834663

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:19 am 
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[post moved below to keep entire BatRep together]


Last edited by John Rainbow on Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:35 am 
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So you ended up dropping the frost phoenix for the bolt throwers? Eager to see how it works out for you.


Nice rolling Apotheosis!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:17 pm 
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High Elves v. Warriors of Chaos (2500pts)
Myself and Malossar (link to his blog) have been talking lately about running a Star Dragon list with the new book. Each of us is running a similar list and we're trying to figure out what really works well and what doesn't. As an added incentive, the first one of us to 10 wins gets to claim the mighty prize of pride and a high horse from which to berate the other. Mal has gotten in 2 games already and although he still sits at the zero wins marker, he has some valuable experience going into his next game for which his list has changed. I need to get rolling with some games!

The list I'm using is as follows:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Ench.Sh, 4++, OTS, HA
BSB + B.Steed, DA, Golden Crown, Charmed.Sh, Pot.Str, Sword.Striking,
Noble + B.Steed, Ogre Blade, HA, SH, Dragonhelm
Mage(2)[High] + Scroll, Ring.Fury

10 Silver Helms + command, SH
3 x 5 Reavers + spears & bows
3 x 5 Reavers

7 Dragon Princes + command, BotWD, Star Lance

Frostheart
3 x RBT


Mal has been running a double Phoenix list and between us, we were wondering about the use of RBTs instead of one Phoenix. This game is me trying this idea out against Nurgle WoC.

I am facing:

Daemon Prince(4)[Nurgle]+wings, 1+/5++, Sword Striking, 2++ v. flaming, Breath Weapon
Exalted on Disc + 3++ (Tzeentch), Charmed Shield, Halberd,
BSB + Dragonhelm, stuff
Sorceror(1)[Death] + Ring.Rhuin, Scroll

23 Nurgle Warriors + command, Sword + Board, +1 movement banner
3 x 5 Hounds
2 x Nurgle Chariots

1 x Gorebeast Chariot (Nurgle)

2 x 3 Skull Crushers + mus.

Not a fun list to play against but certainly not the worst WoC list out there. Note that there are army restrictions due to comp. on the max. number of flyers, items, etc, etc which is why the lists both might seem somewhat away from the optimal if all things/combos were allowed (take a look at the Crossroads GT website for the actual restrictions we were using - I think they tend to be very fair).

Rolling for spells:

lvl.2 High Mage: Soul Quench and Apotheosis
DP: Stream of Corruption, Plague Wind, Miasma, Rancid Visitations
Sorceror: Fate of Bjuna

Note that he rolled first before I rolled a 1 & 6 for apotheosis and convocation. I swapped to soul quench as convocation was pretty much useless against his list and has a high cost for a lvl.2, drain would also be more or less ineffective with the spells he rolled up - miasma of pestilence being the only spell I could use it against.

Deployment
Deployment was as follows, I dropped my reavers whilst he dropped his hounds in terms of chaff before I deployed fairly centrally. I was relatively happy with the result. He would be funneled into the board center whilst I would be free to fly around and use my mobility to redeploy as needed. With my vanguard moves I put my Reavers into better positions to control his movement and shoot his hounds.

Image

I won the roll off for first turn and away we went!

HE 1
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After winning the roll for first turn I chose to redeploy my forces, the Silver Helms reforming to move left along with the flyers. Magic was more or less a non-phase with me being out of range of Soul Quench (18”) but in the shooting phase a couple of Chaos Hounds died to the Reavers. My RBTs failed to make an impression on the Gorebeast chariot and I found out that the disc lord had a 3++ invul. in addition to a 1+ AS which would really make taking him down tough!

WoC 1
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Predictably the warriors began their advance forward. Several charges were declared, most of which I fled, safe in the knowledge that ‘feigned flight’ would allow my Reavers to regroup and fight another day. On the left I did hold against the Skullcrushers in order to draw them out of position - if I had fled they would have redirected into my other Reavers next to the building and gotten closer to my lines. Stand & shoot on the right flank took down a dog before the unit fled the other unit of charging hounds.

Magic came up 9v5 and I let through a 4d Miasma (of Pestilence, don’t confuse with Shadow lore miasma though it has a similar effect - reduce WS/I in B2B) on the central Skull Crushers - I wasn’t about to hit them in CC anyway. Next up my opponent IF’d Vortex of Nurgley-ness but managed to misfire and plant it on himself! The only effect was that he lost a W on his Sorceror as the DP passed his toughness check. With that the magic phase was over and I’d gotten away lightly without rolling a single die!

In CC the Skull Crushers killed the Reavers and overran due to being frenzied - they were effectively out of the game for a while.

HE 2
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The Reavers rallied and moved into blocking positions whilst I again continued to move my flyers, etc into a better position for the coming turns. On the left the Frost Phoenix attempted a long charge on the flank of the Skull Crushers (needing to roll 10) but failed - it was a long shot but wouldn’t matter in terms of where I would end up.

The winds came up 10v6 and started with a 2d Apotheosis on the mage to give the Dragon Princes a buff to their ward save. This went through. Two castings of Soul Quench (big version and ring version) both got through my opponent’s defences and I managed to put 2W total on the Gorebeast chariot.

This was followed in the shooting phase by the RBTs which put another W on the Gorebeast and a the Reavers killing a single hound. I was beginning to question the inclusion of the RBTs as they hadn’t achieved much so far...

WoC 2
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The WoC decided not to charge and where needed, the Skull Crushers passed their frenzy checks. The jostling for position and waiting for mistakes continued as my opponent repositioned his forces and waited for me to make a move...

Magic was 8v4 and the Warriors were miasma’d on 3d which I again let through - I wasn’t about to charge them! A 2PD v 4DD cast from the Ruby Ring onto my Reavrers was dispelled and an attempt at casting the Nurgle Vortex was failed.

HE 3
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I decided it was time for some decisive action and declared charges from the Phoenix onto the Skull Crushers (17” away) and the Prince/Dragon onto the other unit of Crushers (19” away). I was thinking I could blow through those units and hopefully be in my opponent’s backfield but alas, it was not to be as the Prince failed to make his 9 on 3d (52% chance) and ambled forwards. The phoenix did make it into combat however which was useful as he would be able to stop the Crushers from coming around my flank and getting behind my Dragon Princes. I was also able to reform my Dragon Princes and take them out of the arc of the Disc Exalted whilst still remaining within 18” range of the Gorebeast for magic. Huzzah.

The poor attempt at a charge by the Prince (probably a bad call from me) meant I really had to use my Reavers to hold his units and hope I could kill the Gorebeast with magic/shooting - I was worried about it’s Killing Blow abilities and my Prince!

Luckily Lileath blessed me in the magic phase with 11v6 dice (and a crucial 4++ for the Phoenix) and I started out with a 6d(19) casting of boosted Soul Quench on the Gorebeast which was dispelled with 6DD. My 2d attempt at the Ring of Fury was also scrolled but a 3d cast of Apotheosis went off and again, granted the DPs an increased ward save.

In the shooting phase the Reavers on the right killed 2 dogs and caused them to flee but crucially, I failed to kill the Gorebeast with the RBTs only managing to put a single wound on it after I fired 3 big bolts.

In combat the Phoenix whiffed and did not get a single hit whilst taking a wound in return. Luckily he held though.

WoC 3
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As I thought they would, both the Gorebeast and regular chariot charged my blocking Reavers in an attempt to overrun into the Prince. I held here but looking back on it, I’m not sure why I did. The Reavers were going to die and he would overrun into my dragon either way with my poor placement. The disc lord also declared a charge onto my dragon - potentially a bad move by him as the charitos would get impact hits but the high str. attacks of the crew/gorebeast would be wasted as he had to challenge me with the disc rider (who I thought I could take in CC). The hounds on the left moved to block my knights - who were ready to support the dragon if needed. In the end they weren't as my opponent did not declare his Skull Crushers into the Prince (which he should have in my opinion).

My opponent rolled 6v5 for magic but I channeled and was able to make it an even 6v6. I dispelled both a Fireball magic missle from the sorceror and Rancid Visitations from the Daemon Prince which saved my blocking Reavers (my opponent was getting rather annoyed with them at this point!) but was unable to prevent him casting Miasma on the chariot in combat with the Prince, this reduced my WS & I by one but also managed to get his DP an additional wound and toughness point due to the lore attribute.

In combat the Reavers were killed and he overran but didn’t manage to wound with a single impact hit. My Prince then proceeded to put on a brilliant display of ineptitude and fail to hit his hero of disc either (we were in a challenge). His hero then managed to put a wound on the Prince before the dragon stomped him into the ground to tie combat.

The Frost bird did manage to cause a wound to the Crushers for no reply but they held (although they lost frenzy).

HE 4
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There were no charges from me this turn and after a few moves, we went to magic. With 9v6 I went for a boosted Soul Quench on the Warriors but failed to kill anything after he failed a dispel. A 1d cast from the ring also failed but Apotheosis on 2d healed a wound on the Prince.

Shooting killed a bunch of hounds (I felt forced to use RBTs for this to stop them getting in the way of my DPs again) and put a single wound on the right-most chariot.

In CC the Prince again waved his sword in the air to no avail and took 2W in return (thank Lileath for Apotheosis!). The dragon then also wiffed and I was forced to use the breath weapon to take down the gorebeast. On the far left the phoenix took another wound but held on a 9.

WoC 4
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The Nurgle chariot started his T4 by charging my Reavers (who held) and the rest of his forces moved up. The Skull Crushers did not declare a charge on the dragon which was a poor choice IMHO. The Daemon Prince finally came into play also.

A 9v4 magic phase gave my opponent control but he rolled poorly and started by failing with the Ruby Ring on 2d. I dispelled a 3d cast of the Nurgle magic missile on my helms but this meant they got hit with the Nurgle breath weapon spell instead. The result for me was 3 dead Silver Helms, swiftly followed by another 3 dead in the shooting phase from his ‘normal’ breath weapon. I passed panic checks each time.

In combat 1 Reaver survived the combat with the chariot and fled away with the wheeled contraption in hot pursuit. The Prince/Dragon put 2W on the chariot they were in CC with but he held on a 5. The Phoenix however salvaged the phase for me and caused a wound on the Skull Crushers before running them down as they fled.

HE 5
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I started up my 5 by declaring my Potion of Str. and charging the Nurgle Warriors who held. I then proceeded to fail the necessary roll of 6 on 3d and was left pretty disappointed with my investment of points in both my bus and the potion! My remaining Reaver fled off the board whilst the Phoenix moved back towards the action and I moved to block his chariot (again).

Magic and shooting were entirely lacklustre and only managed to put 4W on the Nurgle block combined. I did however manage to kill the chariot in combat (finally) and reform the Prince to face the Skull Crushers.

WoC 5
Image
The chariot charges the Reavers who elect to hold whilst the Nurgle warriors charge the Dragon Princes (hold) and Skull Crushers go for the Dragon (flee). The DP also charged the SHs and I elected to hold again in the vain hope of maybe surviving but also to stop him redirecting into the RBTs. The Prince successfully escaped the oncoming Skull Crushers and they redirected into the Frosty instead who held. Fortunately for me the Nurgle block also failed it’s long charge (needing to roll something like 10 on 2 dice).

Magic was also a bit of a failure for my opponent after a 6d cast of Fireball failed to make an impression on the dragon and I dispelled miasma with my dice.

In close combat the Silver Helms were cut down and fled the board whilst the chariot killed the Reavers and reformed. The Phoenix did a wound to the Skull Crushers who held.

HE 6
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I was counting up points here and I realised I was just ahead. I had lost all of my core (625pts) but he had lost more in his Disc Hero and the chariots/hounds/crushers. To this end I played it safe and declared a charge from the Dragon Princes into his chariot, as I thought he would, he fled and this allowed me to redirect into the Skull Crushers fighting the Phoenix. The Dragon rallied.

Magic was 7v4 and an utter failure of a phase. I managed to recover a wound on the Phoenix but failed to cause any damage to the chariot with a boosted Soul Quench. The RBTs managed 2W on it but not enough to kill it and get the points.

The Skull Crushers were slaughtered in close combat without reply and cut down as they ran. The pursuit also took me further from the dangerous chaos elements that remained.

WoC 6
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The last Warriors turn was fairly uneventful. The chariot rallied and my opponent attempted to recover something by trying to kill the Prince/Dragon. It would come down to magic with the sorceror moving within 12” for Fate of Bjuna. I watched the winds roll with some trepidation as they came up 7v4. Fortunately I still had my scroll remaining however and managed to shut down his phase to conclude the game.

Result: Minor Win for the High Elves!

Summary and Thoughts
That game was seriously cagey wasn’t it! Both of us were jostling for position and waiting for a mistake to capitalise upon. We both had very simlar, in-your-face aggressive armies and couldn’t really get the best ouf of them against each other. I also made a few mistakes that hurt my ability to dictate the game:

1. The Prince charge was a gamble which didn’t pay off and nearly cost me very dearly. Luckily for me my opponent failed with his killing blow impact hits but I could’ve feasibly lost my Prince here. Note to self: 52% is not good odds for a charge!

2. My target choices were sometimes poor in this game. Hitting the Nurgle block with missiles (both normal and magical) was a bad choice as I was never really in a situation to take them on in combat. I should’ve prioritised his chariots first and got the points before chaffing the warriors away.

3. I’m not sure that Soul Quench was the best swap for Convocation. It has such a short range and didn’t really do much for me here. I’m not sure if Drain Magic would’ve been a better choice as it can be cast whenever - even in CC which is where the bus is likely to be - and gives the advantage of the ward save more often i.e. casting it even when there isn’t a spell to remove.

Other thoughts: The RBTs (and my ranged output in general) performed poorly. In terms of damage output my RBTs didn’t accomplish much at all. What they did give me however was some measure of board control. The bolt throwers kept the Daemon Prince honest for a large part of the game (although I’m not sure if he should’ve been that scared) and did at least give me something with which to attack at range. For now, they’ll stay but I’m not convinced as yet as to their utility over something else. As these are the current main difference in mine and Mal's lists, I'll be commenting more on these in the future and their role v. say a 2nd Frosty.

That Gorebeast chariot is nasty and tough as nails to boot! I really struggled to make an impression on it with anything this game although, as usual, my single bolt attempts at shooting were pretty atrocious.

For my opponent, I think he was too cautious with his Daemon Prince and made some strange charge moves (Disc Hero) or lack of them (not charging Crushers-->dragon). In the end though it was a very tight game and such things are won on these small margins. Either way I have my first win on the way to 10!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Thanks for the work putting that BR together. BTW how did you get UB images on the forum? Every time i try to upload them to imageshack or photobucket i get an unreadable error. Is it a mac problem?


Thanks for running that experiment with the RBTs I thought this was the perfect match up for them. Lots of targets that could be knocked off in a round or two while they slowly advanced up the field.

Having the four units of redirectors is nice isn't it?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:33 pm 
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This looked like a really good game for showing off reavers. I think the unit which tied up the blood crushers which then took the Frost charge deserve unit of the match - really nice use of them (frostie gets second vote).

A few comments:
Were you mostly using single bolts? I don't know what the mathhammer is, but from Ptolomy's thread it looked like in almost every case volley is better - is this one of the exceptions?

RE: targetting - I'd definitely agree that hounds and chariots are the priorities. Hounds to get them out of the way of your reavers and to cause possible panic checks, chariots to try to prevent eating charges - especially on few model cavalry units. I can see the temptation to try to remove steadfast but I'd maybe trust to your punch and grind power on that. In theory this match up is really good for them but I feel this was proof (or another anecdote anyway) that they're not that great, especially without magical support.

RE: keeping the DP honest - I'm amazed how many BRs I read where this happens. Why do they fear it so much? If I were a WoC player (having been a HE player) I'd fly straight up to them and dare them to miss, fail to wound, not wound badly, bust my armour and ward.

RE: spell selection, I think you chose right. The MM has a short range but it can be cast in a low PD phase or boosted quite impressively if you have the dice. Flames of the Pheonix pretty much demands 5 or 6 dice and there was only one good target for it in this match-up (the warrior block). I think Apotheosis was the best spell you could ask for in the lore with a monster list.

And a question - can you stomp the disk rider? If so, cool :mrgreen: .

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:32 am 
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Great report!
Regarding your thoughts on killing blow on he prince, does the chariot have the Heroic Killing blow rule? Otherwise as your prince is on a monster he is immune to normal KB according to the latest FAQ.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:23 am 
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Dragon fire wrote:
Great report!
Regarding your thoughts on killing blow on he prince, does the chariot have the Heroic Killing blow rule? Otherwise as your prince is on a monster he is immune to normal KB according to the latest FAQ.



the Prince on Star Dragon is Monster and Rider meaning the prince can be targeted separately. You are referring to the FAQ about Monsterous Cavalry meaning that characters classified as MC can no long be KB. Think Eagle Riding Character.

@Ferny I think he meant "stomp" as in smashed the disc rider with normal attacks not actually thunderstomping.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:03 pm 
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The FAQ I'm referring to states that character mounted on a monster, chariot or monstrous beast is not susceptible to KB, only to HKB. So I'm quite sure that the prince om the dragon cannot be KB'ed. It's marked with magenta so it has been put in the FAQ section here in April.
I'm going to battle a friend of mine who uses a 40 man corsair block with the buffs from his cauldron so I have looked into this a bit to make sure I would be able to charge his block.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Interesting spot!

Q: Is a character mounted on a monster, chariot or monstrous beast susceptible to the Killing Blow special rule? (p72)

A: No, as the character’s troop type as changes to ‘monster’, ‘chariot’ or ‘monstrous cavalry’ respectively, thereby rendering Killing Blow ineffective. Only Heroic Killing Blow will work against these targets

So it seems our characters even on dragons are immune...


EDIT: Game 4 is up! viewtopic.php?p=836107#p836107

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:58 am 
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Dragon fire wrote:
The FAQ I'm referring to states that character mounted on a monster, chariot or monstrous beast is not susceptible to KB, only to HKB. So I'm quite sure that the prince om the dragon cannot be KB'ed. It's marked with magenta so it has been put in the FAQ section here in April.

Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn't realised they'd changed this again. In the last version you could be KB'd.

Ferny wrote:
Were you mostly using single bolts? I don't know what the mathhammer is, but from Ptolomy's thread it looked like in almost every case volley is better - is this one of the exceptions?

I math-hammered most of them out in-game and it was pretty much the same odds. I tended to go for the big bolt just because it had the potential of doing 3W and killing in a single shot, in which case you're then free to use the other RBTs to target other stuff.

Ferny wrote:
RE: keeping the DP honest - I'm amazed how many BRs I read where this happens. Why do they fear it so much? If I were a WoC player (having been a HE player) I'd fly straight up to them and dare them to miss, fail to wound, not wound badly, bust my armour and ward.

I was quite amazed by this too but if he does happen to take 3W (or even 2W) from a bolt, he becomes significantly more manageable - especially as the DP is comped here so Soul Feeder is rarely seen on them. I certainly would have used him much more aggressively in this game though. A DP in my lines would make my target choice much more difficult and would have certainly prevented some of those wounds being done to the other units (gorebeast).

Ferny wrote:
And a question - can you stomp the disk rider? If so, cool :mrgreen: .

Yes you can although I killed it with the dragon's combat attacks here in a challenge.

Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
Thanks for the work putting that BR together. BTW how did you get UB images on the forum? Every time i try to upload them to imageshack or photobucket i get an unreadable error. Is it a mac problem?

I just use the screen-shot function from the UB menu, it has always worked fine for me... You could try screenshotting or screengrabbing on your mac (apple, shift, 4) is the combination I believe, pressed all at the same time.

Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
Thanks for running that experiment with the RBTs I thought this was the perfect match up for them. Lots of targets that could be knocked off in a round or two while they slowly advanced up the field.

Having the four units of redirectors is nice isn't it?

I like the RBTs in terms of what they theoretically offer but was a little disappointed in terms of actual in-game damage output. They did give me some serious board control here which was pretty useful and something I don't think you can get elsewhere in the book though. Another Phoenix could have been useful but I'm not sure whether I would've preferred that or the RBTs. I'll keep playing with the RBTs for now while you do the Phoenix thing and we'll see how it goes. I think it's going to come down to one or the other being better against different lists in the end, although it also dictates the style of play. With RBTs I always feel like I have a static fire base of sorts that I have to protect, this then dictates my setup in that I was somewhat more rigid and defensive here. With the full air-cav. list as you have, I would probably have played more aggressively and used my mobility much more in order to attack my opponent down the flanks. I think either list could've worked in this game.

As for the Reavers, serious contenders for MVPs! My opponent was getting seriously frustrated by these guys at the end of the game. They are really very good. I never used them in the old book (eagles) and am really enjoying them now they are core selections. I certainly don't miss my eagles at the moment.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Good report =D> .

Tactical match. I'm thinking that the dragon and frost phoenix combined should easily take down the nurgle warriors in 2-3 combat turns. They are -1S and you have 2D6 thunderstomp that wound on 2+. There's just that teeny problem of surviving the inevitable countercharges, provided your opponent plays it smart.
Also wondering why you didn't try harder to get both Frosty and dragon to tagteam Chrushers. That way you could potentially have broken them in one turn, instead of a long drawn out affair.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Ok, I`ll be focusing on the report rather than the list and provide some food for thought re:list at the end.

Deployment: First off, I like the Reavers fanning out. They create a major headache for him and with the even spread, advancing anywhere is hard. I don`t like the positioning of the Helms relative to DPs, although you can redeploy (which you did!), it`ll cost you too much in terms of board control. You lose a lot of charge arcs and also opportunity to wrap around or combo-charge with the flexible flyers.

T1: splitting up the birds is in my opinion unlikely to be a good idea. What you want in this matchup is to strike hard and fast and avoid getting bogged down. Now essentially, your prince is covering the arcs which the helms were supposed to take care of, whereas you`d otherwise be ready to charge him decisively - not just threaten him, if you had gone with the phoenix as well to an aggressive position. You are committing the phoenix to a flank, with the prince in a waiting sort of role. Also, if you intend to have the Reavers lure out his Crushers, ensure that your birds have a very likely charge in your next turn.

T2: Although the phoenix could`ve easily made it, the failed charge shows my point about T1. By not committing the birds together, you are splitting up which opens up for your opponent to exploit your weak spots. I am very curious as to why your opponent didn`t just march up the Warriors here full speed with support. I see it as unlikely that you would charge him and commit the Prince + DP, given proper counter-charge options.

T3: As we`ve covered already the prince is immune to killing blow, so no biggie here in itself. The bigger biggie is a counter-charge`s potential of breaking you. Did he lose his disc hero here? It appears to be gone on the map. Not charging the Prince with Crushers is a huge mistake in my opinion, they hurt so badly on the charge it`s not even funny (even my last book`s Prince has died to such a charge -.-).

Basically, from here on out the game played itself as I see it. When the prince + frostheart are both locked down the rest is up to dice. I think you played a decent game, but lacked an overall game-plan when you started. In my opinion, your list needs to see this game as follows: chariots and crushers must die. At all costs, you need to engage them with flyers and eliminate them ASAP. They pack a huge punch and will tear through you badly whatever they hit. Your supreme movement is amazing here. Also, abuse the frenzy as much as you can, force him to try double 6 charges etc. Basically, hunting these down are up to your prince and frostheart, preferably together. This leaves the rest of your list to do the following: cavalry threaten his approaches (they can easily devastate anything but the DP + blocks on the charge), RBTs keep his flyers true. Basically this lets you dictate the game. The worst case scenario for you is for your opponent to find a weak spot where you don`t really have enough stuff threatening him and just march up. In this game, I believe your opponent was too hesitant to capitalize on your dispersed forces. While HE hit hard on the charge, we struggle with nurgle warriors (DPs average just over 50% hits, translating to 1 hit per model in the front rank, 0,67W of which more than one third is saved... not good odds) and with M5, he can just blindly send them full speed ahead, unless you can get frosty + cav or prince + cav at the same time (and even in these cases it can be favourable if he can set up counter-charges).

Also, list musings. I think the game plan will largely be the same the minute you include a phoenix and a dragon. Regardless of your other selections, neutralizing chariots and crushers is your primary objective. To this end, how does your list help you achieve this goal? Are there other selections that are better? How does the gameplan change against other opponents, and how do your elements help you towards this goal?

Hope you found this useful :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:04 pm 
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rusty wrote:
Tactical match. I'm thinking that the dragon and frost phoenix combined should easily take down the nurgle warriors in 2-3 combat turns. They are -1S and you have 2D6 thunderstomp that wound on 2+. There's just that teeny problem of surviving the inevitable countercharges, provided your opponent plays it smart.
Also wondering why you didn't try harder to get both Frosty and dragon to tagteam Chrushers. That way you could potentially have broken them in one turn, instead of a long drawn out affair
Curu Olannon wrote:
I think you played a decent game, but lacked an overall game-plan when you started.

I think these two points can be taken together as they are sort of saying the same things. I agree that I didn't really consider a long term game plan enough here and post-game, its obvious that there were some better choices available.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Also, list musings. I think the game plan will largely be the same the minute you include a phoenix and a dragon. Regardless of your other selections, neutralizing chariots and crushers is your primary objective. To this end, how does your list help you achieve this goal? Are there other selections that are better? How does the gameplan change against other opponents, and how do your elements help you towards this goal?

Curu Olannon wrote:
Good report, though i must admit I'm not a fan of UB pics. Will comment tomorrow food for thought - what are your DPs contributing?

Again some similar questions... The list does more or less play the same way in each game with significant amounts of movement to capitalise on errors and force combo charges. I have also been considering what, if anything, I want to change in the list too. I like the RBTs as they offer control and allow the faster stuff to move around whilst keeping my opponent busy. For now, they're staying. The comment about the DPs has piqued my interest though as, like you say, they don't really come into play in this game (although they did in my more recent game). I have been tempted to drop their numbers for something else - the noble on griffon or BSB on eagle springs to mind immediately. I think I'll ruminate on it a bit more and come up with some list ideas before making a decision - equipping the guy on the eagle will be tough and mean I need to move things around somewhat.

I too wasn't a fan of the UB pics to start with, but as I played with UB they become easier to read. It also helps that I can generate them in game so don't have to go back over things in Battle Chronicler or whatever later on - this is the main reason why I'm using them as I don't have a huge amount of free time at the moment.

I also have a mini-BatRep v. new Lizards coming up some time this week.


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High Elves v. (new) Lizards
On Sunday I took my list against a buddy of mine using the new Lizards. This BatRep is somewhat shorter than my usual as there wasn't too much to be learned from the result in terms of list development.

High Elves:
Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Ench.Sh, 4++, OTS, HA
BSB + B.Steed, DA, Golden Crown, Charmed.Sh, Pot.Str, Sword.Striking,
Noble + B.Steed, Ogre Blade, HA, SH, Dragonhelm
Mage(2)[High] + Scroll, Ring.Fury

10 Silver Helms + command, SH
3 x 5 Reavers + spears & bows
3 x 5 Reavers

7 Dragon Princes + command, BotWD, Star Lance

Frostheart
3 x RBT


The Lizards player was taking:

Slann(4)[High] + BSB, Loremaster, Harmonic Convergence, +1 to channel
Scar Vet on Cold One + Steg Helm, 1+ As
Scar Vet on Cold One + 1+ As
Skink Priest(1)[Heavens] + scroll

30(ish) Saurus + command
30(ish) Skinks + 3 Krox, command

3 x 5 Chameleon Skinks
3 Terradons
Stegadon

So this Lizards list was more of an 8th ed. list using what my opponent had from 7th ed. (i.e. none of the new monsters) so it would be a bit of a tester in seeing how Lizards have changed and what my opponent would need to do in order to bring his list in line with the new book.

Deployment
Image
I deployed with my RBTs in the center and my heavy cavalry on the right whilst the dragon and phoenix went on the left. This choice by me was mainly due to having more drops than my opponent (chameleons were scouting) and frankly, I completely out-deployed him in terms of being able to target what I wanted and when with my placements. I intended to punch through on the left with the dragon/phoenix combo and hit the right with the Helms - unfortunately more suited to chaff clearance here than taking on anything substantial in the center. The reavers were placed to block up the middle of the board while the big hitters went to work.

Early Game
Image
Here you can see my plan coming to fruition... The large Saurus block has had to turn to face the previously oncoming dragon, leaving it free to charge the steg in the mean time and avoid being hit by magic in the Lizard turn. The Helms are on their way to completing a flanking maneuvre whilst the middle of the board is blocked up by reavers as planned. The bus is taking on the Krox/Skink block.

Late Game
Image
(stuff at the back is dead already)
The krox/skinks have been dealt with along with the steg and the game is up for my opponent. The saurus block is suffering at the hands of the dragon although a couple of things are also missing for me... The Prince bought the farm after some lucky skink attacks took him down in the stegadon combat (lots of 1's/2's for saves) and the Phoenix bought the farm after the Scar Vet hit it in CC and it's Cold One did 2 wounds to it - I fled and was cut down as I didn't cause any wounds myself. Either way the game is up for the LIzards as they're in a bad place and it's a win for the High Elves!

Summary
The game ended up being a bit one-sided, mainly due to my opponent's choice of units (based on what he had from the 7th ed. book) but I did learn a few things about the new lizards book. Krox/Skinks are not much good any more - you can now target the Krox in CC and kill off the damage dealers pretty easily. This is exactly what I did with the DPs and the skinks crumbled pretty quickly afterwards. The new blowpipes on the stegadon are pretty fearsome against us, it generates something like 4d6 worth of poisoned shots, now with a longer range, which can be pretty darn terrifying for anything in front of it. The Slann is no where near the magical horror that he used to be, and, in my honest opinion, High magic sucks for them for the most part - at least in conjunction with the list I faced.

In the end, its another win for the High Elves and that puts me a 2-0 with the Star Dragon. I have a ways to go - and quickly - if I'm going to beat Mal to 10 wins!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:32 pm 
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The magic item guide I made for 7th ed. has now been updated to the new 8th. ed items: 8th ed. High Elf Magic Item Guide


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:15 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
The magic item guide I made for 7th ed. has now been updated to the new 8th. ed items: 8th ed. High Elf Magic Item Guide



Damnit man! Stop writing and get playing ;)


Thanks for this I'll give it a read.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:09 am 
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CROSSROADS GT
This past weekend I took my Star Dragon list to the Crossroads GT in NY state. There were 110 or so participants and some really good players in attendance.

Also, in terms of terrain, all water features would be treated as Khemrian quicksand.

Quote:
My list:
Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Ench.Sh, 4++, OTS, HA
BSB + B.Steed, DA, Golden Crown, Charmed.Sh, Pot.Str, Sword.Striking,
Noble + B.Steed, Ogre Blade, HA, SH, Dragonhelm
Mage(2)[High] + Scroll, Ring.Fury

10 Silver Helms + command, SH
3 x 5 Reavers + spears & bows
3 x 5 Reavers

7 Dragon Princes + command, BotWD, Star Lance

Frostheart
3 x RBT


Game 1 v. Chaos Dwarves (Larry Motola)
Larry won the Crossroads GT last year and is a prolific tournament player and winner. Drawing his Chaos Dwarf list in the 1st round was pretty much the worst start I could hope for purely based on the match-up. Artillery v. a Dragon list is never much fun. On the plus side, his army was beautifully painted…
Image

Chaos Dwarf List:
Sorceror-Prophet(4)[Death] + 4++,Earthing Rod, Dragonhelm,OTS
Castellan BSB + Obs.Lodestone, Ench.Sh,
Bull Centaur Taur’ruk + Sword.Might, Dawn Stone, Charmed.Sh
Sorceror(1)[Fire] + Scroll, Ironcurse
Hobgoblin Khan + Warrior Bane, Wolf

25 Infernal Guard
20 Hobgoblins w/bows
20 Hobgoblins w/bows

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders
5 Centaur Renders
2 x 1 Deathshrieker Rocket
Magma Cannon
Hellcannon

Deployment is shown in the picture.
Image

My plan was to rush forward as quickly as possible and engage the Dwarves, hopefully their tight placement would

Unfortunately for me I did not get the 1st turn and would be forced to bear the brunt of two rounds of shooting before getting into CC. Did I survive this shooting? No. T1 my Silver Helms were unfortunate enough to be targeted by Doom and Darkness (I failed to dispel with my level 2 needing a 10 on 4 dice) ,take a hit from the Hellcannon and then fail their Ld check. This resulted in them fleeing the board and panicking the nearby RBTs. Not a great start…

This was followed in short order by the Prince & Dragon bein hit by a rocket which killed the rider and took the dragon down to 1W remaining. I then failed the monster reaction test and got the ‘Grrr!’ result meaning I would stay in the same place for the rest of the game. Great…

Needless to say I was in a poor position in T2 and things only went downhill from there. I suffered a major loss but did manage to salvage a few bonus battle points for killing a couple of targets of opportunity.

Game 2 v. Wood Elves (Charles)
The scenario for game 2 was Blood & Glory and I was up against Wood Elves. I knew this game would be the opposite for me in relation to my first - it would be almost impossible for my opponent to win and I had a clear advantage. It would seem that my list was really polarising my match-ups in terms of actually being able to win or be played against.

The Wood Elf list:
Treeman Ancient + Nettlings
Spellweaver(4)[Life] + scroll
Noble on Eagle + Dragonhelm, 3++, Po.Fools
Noble BSB + Hail of Doom, Dragonbane

8 Dryads
8 Dryads
8 Glade Guard Scouts
11 Glade Guard
11 Glade Guard

Treeman
Treeman
3 x Great Eagle

And what they looked like…
Image

Deployment:
Image

In terms of the game here there isn’t much to say. My opponent couldn’t handle the dragon and I ran away with it. I ended up tabling him and won big. Quite a contrast to my first game!

Game 3 v. High Elves (Justin Burgy)
Game 3 had each player trying to escort objectives off of the board edges. I was up against another High Elf list and another experienced tournament player in Justin. He was running the following:

Prince + Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, 5++
Archmage(4)[High] + Book, 4++
Noble BSB + Merwyrm.Sh, Crown.Command
Handmaiden + Reaver Bow, Po.Str

30 Spearmen
17 Archers
6 Reavers

24 Phoenix Guard + Razor Banner
5 Shadow Warriors

14 Sisters
3 Bolt Throwers
2 x Great Eagle

I forgot to get an army shot so straight onto the game…
Image

Deployment is shown above, the sisters are hidden as they occupied the building in T1. Yet again I failed to go first and my opponent opened up early on the dragon, taking him down to 2W remaining and putting some hurt on the Prince too! Aaaargh! Bad start for me again. To get rid of the threat I charged the building with the sisters with my Prince and killed the handmaiden before bouncing off. I took another couple of wounds in T2 taking both the prince and dragon down to 1W each and engaged some of the opposing Elves elsewhere (cue slapfighting reavers and archers/SHs).

I took out all the sisters with the help of the dragon’s breath (reroll wounds in buildings as flaming) and prepared to face the oncoming spear horde and eat them for lunch. Only I didn’t as I forgot that you can’t reform after a victorious combat against a building…

… this killed me as I didn’t realise this would happen and I ended up getting my dragon stuck out of combat for a crucial turn along with blocking my Phoenix out - I couldn’t get the Phoenix in as the dragon could not charge to get out the way. This was entirely my own fault for not knowing building rules well enough and it cost me big as my Dragon Princes were rolled by his spears/PG in T3. I ended up losing but it was closer than I imagined it would be in the end.

Game 4 v. Wood Elves (Jeremy Gagne)
Scenario 4 was an objective control game with 3 objectives along the center of the board being controlled by the closest unit (had to have at least one command model) with the most wounds. My opponent was another tournament regular and a previous trophy winner at the Crossroads GT. He also had a really nicely painted army with converted, massive treekin:
Image

His army:
Spellweaver(4)[Life] + scroll
Spellweaver(4)[Beasts] + Wand of Wych Elm, Opal Amulet
Noble BSB + Hail of Doom
Noble on Eagle + Dragonhelm, 3++

8 Dryads
8 Dryads
14 Glade Guard
3 x 10 Glade Guard

6 Treekin
5 Wild Riders
3 x Great Eagle

Image

Again this was another matchup that was completely one-sided purely based on the lists we had each chosen. The Wood Elves had little chance against my list without some seriously good magic in T1 (or 2 depending on who got 1st turn) and I was well set against him with my list.

My opponent won the first turn and made his attempts to kill the Dragon/Phoenix in his first couple of turns, mostly with Amber Spears and lots of bow-shots. He didn’t really manage to make any impression on my forces (in fact I only lost 2 units of Reavers before the T5) and I tore through his lines with the Dragon/Phoenix combo.

The result was a big win for me although my Prince/Dragon were killed in his T6 by the last unit of his on the board - his mage had fled his bunker and cast Dwellers on my Lord. Yep, I failed the roll on a 6 and was sucked down into the ground. This didn’t change the result from being a big win for me though.

Game 5 v. Dwarves (Keith Conry)
Dwarves again and in a pure battleline scenario for the final round. Great… Again my opponent was a really nice guy but boy was I frustrated to be playing against a Dwarven gunline again - albeit the ‘Forces of Order’ type this time.

Lord + Shieldbearers, Runic Armour(steel), Runic Talisman(challenge)
Runelord + Runic Armour(Shielding), Talisman(Balance)
Thane BSB + Runic Weapon(Cleaving), Armour(Gromril)
Engineer

42 Warriors w/GWs
12 Quarrellers
30 Hammerers

Cannon + R.Forging
2 x Grudge Thrower + Rune Accuracy
Organ Gun

Deployment was as follows and again I was planning on rushing his forces on my left flank. I hoped to reach his lines intact (with the luck of the Elven Gods) and use his own tight deployment to single out his units and destroy them one at a time.

Deployment:
Image

Yet again I failed to win the first turn and I knew I would be really up against it as I would have to weather two turns of artillery bombardment. In T1 my Frosty was splatted by a cannon/grudge thrower combo (the amount of rerolls they get is redonk) and I moved up my forces in my turn. It would be to no avail however as the Prince/Dragon were targeted and reduced to a smoking carcass in T2. I made some token efforts with my Dragon Princes in the late game but without any real support I struggled. I did manage to kill his warmachines and reduce his Lord and guard unit to 1W and 4 guys remaining respectively but couldn’t finish them off to salvage any more points.

Result: a big loss to finish my weekend :(

Summary:
So I had 2 wins and 3 losses. My worst tournament performance to date (IIRC). I was seriously the victim of some crappy matchups here although the same could be said for my poor Wood Elf opponents (victims?) too. My bad luck in facing 2 gunlines was compounded by not getting the first turn in either of those games (or any of my other games), something which I feel would have helped out dramatically in at least getting into combat somewhat intact.

Overall I wasn’t really happy with the list. Not that it isn’t good or anything like that, it just completely polarised my matchups such that in 2 of my games I had no real chance of winning and in 2 of the other games my opponents didn’t really have a chance. I just didn’t like the way that felt to play with. This was completely my own fault as I chose the list and knew it would happen, I just hadn’t felt that way in a tournament before about the list I was using. I think at least for the near future I’m going to retire the dragon list to avoid the same thing happening again. The game I enjoyed the most was my 3rd against the other High Elves because it was more tactical and I had to think. The other games were either over before they started for me or took little to no brain power to really win. I want a bit more of a challenge in every game I play!

The one shining light this tournament was my painty score. In fact I was nominated, along with around 10 others for the ‘Best Painted’ trophy. I knew I wouldn’t make it based on the competition but the recognition was great and it felt really good after all the effort I put in - especially this last week!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:06 pm 
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So what do people think of this at 2500pts... it's a more hybrid style list that is a bit more fluffy for High Elves.

Archmage(4)[Shadow] + Book, 4++
BSB + HA, Ench.Sh, Reaver Bow, Pot.Str

3 x 5 Reavers w/bow
24 Archers + std,mus
10 Archers + mus

21 White Lions + FC, BotWD
24 Phoenix Guard + FC, Razor Banner

7 Sisters of Avelorn
4 x RBT
Frost Phoenix


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:47 pm 
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Looks tough, about as close to "cookie cutter" as we have. Great shooting backed by a great lore in shadow!

Love the phoenix guard, no more dragon?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:51 am 
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Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
Love the phoenix guard, no more dragon?

Did you take a look at my (brief) tournament report? I had a pretty torrid time with the dragon against all the cannons. I think I might give him a rest for now with the way it played at that event. I really didn't like losing the game before even rolling the dice against Dwarves and winning without really putting a huge amount of effort in against Woodies. In all seriousness I want to play a more tactical and challenging game and I didn't get that with the list in that meta. It just turned me off the dragon for a bit I guess.

I was trying to think of something else to play with and this list seemed like a good idea. I did think about a super-shooty list with more archers and sisters but it only had the single unit of PG as a combat block and I wasn't too excited about massed str.3 ranged weapons. Using both WLs and PG seemed like a better idea in the end I guess. I have a game this week (hopefully) to try it out.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:27 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
Love the phoenix guard, no more dragon?

Did you take a look at my (brief) tournament report? I had a pretty torrid time with the dragon against all the cannons. I think I might give him a rest for now with the way it played at that event. I really didn't like losing the game before even rolling the dice against Dwarves and winning without really putting a huge amount of effort in against Woodies. In all seriousness I want to play a more tactical and challenging game and I didn't get that with the list in that meta. It just turned me off the dragon for a bit I guess.

I was trying to think of something else to play with and this list seemed like a good idea. I did think about a super-shooty list with more archers and sisters but it only had the single unit of PG as a combat block and I wasn't too excited about massed str.3 ranged weapons. Using both WLs and PG seemed like a better idea in the end I guess. I have a game this week (hopefully) to try it out.


The above BRs remind me why the Dragon remains the shelf to this date.

Also, this is my current list:

Quote:
2497
10 drops

LORDS:
Lv.4 Archmage, Shadow = 285
Book of Hoeth, Crown

HEROES:
BSB Noble = 147
Halberd, Armor of Caledor

CORE:
29x Spearmen, FC, SoDisc = 306
15x Archers, Mus = 160
15x Archers, Mus = 160

SPECIAL:
24x Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor = 440
23x White Lions, FC, BotWD = 379

RARE:
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50
4x RBT = 280


Pretty cookie-cutter in terms of lists that me and Tethlis has been running since April, I don't think you'll find a better lore than Shadow IMO. I've tried High Magic for a few games and while it was good, it's not Shadow good. I also ran this list with 2x Frosthearts for a long time, and that list is just silly. It drops all the shooting, but a lot of people can't handle two big birds in one list. It's just too much for them. I went back and forth with Silver Helms in core because I have like 30 of the new plastic DPs, but I honestly like the Spearmen more. Why? Because when all else fails, just Mindrazor your way to victory! Fighting in 4 ranks with ASF Mindrazor honestly feels like cheating.

Anyways, good luck with the new list. I think you'll find that it plays very well :>

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:24 am 
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Having had a few games recently I feel like it is time to share a few thoughts about my current list:

Quote:
HIGH ELVES 2500pts
Archmage(4)[Shadow] + Book, 4++
BSB + HA, Ench.Sh, Reaver Bow, Pot.Str

3 x 5 Reavers w/bow
24 Archers + std,mus
10 Archers + mus

21 White Lions + FC, BotWD
24 Phoenix Guard + FC, Razor Banner

7 Sisters of Avelorn
4 x RBT
Frost Phoenix


In short, I like it. A lot. I'm really not certain of any changes at the moment, except maybe to my choice of magic lore - I'm tempted to try Life as Shadow hasn't been working out too well for me so far - although I am open to suggestions at this point. I've played several games, including playing against Lizardmen (twice), Dark Elves, Nurgle Daemons and Vampires. I've won the majority and only lost to Daemons as we were playing a wacky scenario with the animosity rules and my redirectors all decided to charge Beasts of Nurgle...

... Yep, I had all 3 Reavers and a unit of archers charge the units they were trying to redirect in the same turn. It was pretty funny afterwards but put the writing on the wall in terms of the final result.

So, as for the units, I like all of them as they are. I have an effective shooting phase and am competitive in every other phase too. The Reaver bow noble has been a stand out in many of my games, either he shoots something nasty and brings it down with the help of the bolt throwers or he punks some unsuspecting hero in CC. As I said, the only option I am considering so far is my magic lore choice. Any thoughts anyone?

I also picked up a best painted award at a recent tournament for this army which was great (the event that was using animosity when I lost to Daemons).


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:21 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
In short, I like it. A lot. I'm really not certain of any changes at the moment, except maybe to my choice of magic lore - I'm tempted to try Life as Shadow hasn't been working out too well for me so far - although I am open to suggestions at this point.


I actally think this sort of list is pretty forgiving about lore choice because it can handle itself in each of the required phases reasonably well without magical assistance. Movement, sure. Shooting, hell yeah. Combat - white lions and pheonix guard, what's not to like. Magic, well Lv4 with BoH is decent enough.

What lore to go for? Well, in a way, I don't think it matters!

I experimented with a loremaster (missed being Lv4, even with the book), High with Alarielle for ward (missed having the book!) and am currently playing life...but I plan to switch to shadow ASAP to give that a whirl. I think High might actually work better with a normal cheap AM+BoH than Alarielle but I was maxing the ward.

I reckon just play around with lore choice and see if anything particularly excites you - I don't think you can go particularly wrong, but I suspect Shadow, Life and High are the three to look at first.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:47 am 
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Ferny wrote:
I suspect Shadow, Life and High are the three to look at first

My thoughts are similar although I have also been thinking about metal magic. Final Transmutation has the longest range of any of the 'BIG' spells and the lore itself is actually fairly well rounded. It also helps me deal with some things I would otherwise struggle against i.e. Steam Tank and mass heavy cav. For the time being I want to stick with Shadow magic and see how it plays out but I am considering a change if things don't go to plan in my next few games w.r.t. magic.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:41 pm 
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I run a somewhat similar list and I use High.
Against low T opponents High is very good. Both Skaven and DE hates my spells. However against high T opponents I find that it lacks a bit. My meta is mostly low T armies so I've kept high so far. I've considered Beast as it would be interesting and hopefully better vs. the high T armies.
With Savage beast your BSB can both have a nasty shooting and a nasty CC phase.
Amber Spear resolves our lack of cannons.
Curse of anraheir helps you to control the movement phase.
Wyssians is just nice
Panns impenetrable Pelt is not great.
And the last two spells are the biggest weakness: transformation and flock of doom both of them bad spells.
I haven't tried Beast with this list but it is on my To-try list.

I could see Metal working quite well. However I'm not that familiar with Metal.

I'm still rather new to WHFB so far I've only tried Life, Shadow, high and Beast.


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