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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:56 am 
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Well, this is the list I've been running lately. Gotta say, I'm not having a ton of success with it, but I love how it plays, so I'm going to keep trying until I learn how to use it to its fullest. Also, a lot of it has to do with horrible luck on my side (such as losing the general to a miscast on 3 dice on the first turn, my BSB unit panicking on rerollable 9 or breaking on rerollable 8 from a charge he was supposed to win by a fair margin).

Still, I am very interested on criticism and comments, as well as any suggestion you may have.

-Archmage Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth. I've tested Shadows (great) and Heavens (mediocre, but I have to say I need to learn to use comet), and I want to use Death on my next game. He is great most of the time, at least as long as he isn't blowing himself up.

-Noble Battle Standard Bearer with Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Barded Steed, Lance and Potion of Foolhardiness. I always forget to use the potion, but otherwise he's been a surprisingly powerful tool. Cheap and durable, his only problem is that he and his unit have a large record of failed LD tests. Which is surprissing with LD9 and rerolls. And he and his unit are the most usual target of Curse of Anaheir.

-8 Silver Helms with shield, banner and champion. The noble goes here. It's a great unit (when it isn't running away) which adds a ton of combat resolution to any unit in a fairly small frontage. I run them 3x3, and they work well as a hammer and as an anvil. I've found I don't need a music that much in this unit, while the extra CR from banner is great, while I need the champion to take challenges for the BSB. I'd like to add a music here, but that would push the BSB to the second rank.

-12 Archers.
-15 Archers.
When their shooting can do something, they are great. If their shooting can't do anything, they are expensive roadblocks. They are the general bunker, and I've used them a couple times to flank charge to varying degrees of success.

-5 Reavers with spear.
-5 Reavers with spear.
Redirectors, march blockers, counter chargers... you name it. I love them, and send them to their death every game. And most of the games, they manage to survive. Which means they don't give as many VPs as eagles, even if they are more expensive. They can be set up to minimize frontage to redirect a unit, or to maximize frontage to block multiple units at the same time (I haven't congalined them yet, though. It feels too damn dirty). And, unlike eagles, they can block single models, which is just awesome.

-15 Phoenix Guard with Razor Banner and Musician. Anvil? Hammer? I don't know what they are, but they are always great. They can hold charges against most everything, and dish so much damage I haven't lost a fight with them ever. I used to have 2 of these, but ditched the second unit to bulk the WL units and give these guys the razor banner.

-15 White Lions, Banner of the Eternal Flame, Musician, Champion.
-15 White Lions, Musician, Champion.
I need them, I know it. They are quite good at flanking alongside the PG, and stubborn is great, but the general and the BSB aren't always there to help, so they are a bit weak to panic with "only" LD8. Also, they hate nurgle with a passion.

-5 Dragon Princes. AKA Suicide Squad. They are kind of a hit and miss unit. Some games, they get redirected to hell and back (which isn't bad, they aren't really a key unit). Other games, they charge into a big, juicy charge and stall it to death thanks to their 2+/6++ and their more than reasonable killing power. And yet other games they pretty much win by themselves by making a hole in the enemy lines. I love their speed, and I'd like to give them a musician, but I'm not sure where to find the points. I'm also thinking of moving the Banner of the eternal flame to here, but that would make them less appealing as a sacrificable unit.
I've been thinking I want to try a couple chariots, and these guys seem to be the perfect swap out.

-2 RBTs. Single bolts always fail. Always. Other than that, they are pretty decent for their points. Not really key, but I'd be missing something If I didn't include them. And last game they saved my bacon. Chaff removers at their finest.

-5 Sisters of Avelorn.
-5 Sisters of Avelorn.
Their biggest problem is their range. It is rare the turn they can stand still and shoot without penalties (other than long range). On the other side, this means they usually are close enough to the enemy lines that I can give them a second job: Second string roadblockers. Once their job is finished, they are great at blocking countercharges. And I say great because their high WS and small footprint makes them surprisingly resilient against a lot of elite enemies without stomps or impact hits.
I do think a couple RBTs more would work better, but I need their magical flaming arrows, and their secondary role makes them fairly viable.

-Frostheart Phoenix. My frostie is kind of a hit and miss. Sometimes, he has horrible luck and dies to 3 S5 impact hits. Sometimes, he bathes in the blood of hordes of gors. He is an awesome roadblock, counter charger and combo charger, and should my luck with ward saves be a bit better, he'd be a key player in all my games.


Well, that's it. It is in no way a hard list (no BotWD, for example), but I'm quite happy with the list. Still, always looking forward to improving, I'm looking forward to any comments you may have.

EDIT:

Going to use this as my army list base. As such, these are the latest versions of my lists.

Archmage list:
Code:
LORDS (300 pts)
-Archmage Lvl 4 - Book of Hoeth, Ring of Khaine's Fury: 300 pts

HEROES (161 pts)
-Noble Battle Standard Bearer - Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Barded Steed, Lance, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness: 161 pts

CORE (628 pts)
-8 Silver Helms (shields) - Standard Bearer, Champion, Musician: 213 pts
-15 Archers - Musician: 160 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts

SPECIAL (890 pts)
-15 Phoenix Guard - Standard bearer with Razor Banner, Musician: 295 pts
-15 White Lions - Standard bearer with Banner of the Eternal Flame, Musician, Champion: 235 pts
-15 White Lions - Musician, Champion: 215 pts
-5 Dragon Princes: 145 pts

RARE (520 pts)
-RBT: 70 pts
-RBT: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-Frostheart Phoenix: 240 pts


Loremaster list:
Code:
LORDS (320 pts)
-Loremaster of Hoeth - Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyn, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor: 320 pts

HEROES (161 pts)
-Noble Battle Standard Bearer - Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Barded Steed, Lance, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness: 161 pts

CORE (628 pts)
-8 Silver Helms (shields) - Standard Bearer, Musician, Champion: 213 pts
-15 Archers - Musician: 160 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts

SPECIAL (868 pts)
-8 Swordmasters of Hoeth: 104 pts
-8 Swordmasters of Hoeth: 104 pts
-5 Shadow Warriors: 70 pts
-15 White Lions - Standard bearer with Banner of the Eternal Flame, Musician, Champion: 235 pts
-15 White Lions - Musician, Champion: 215 pts
-Tiranoc Chariot: 70 pts
-Tiranoc Chariot: 70 pts

RARE (520 pts)
-RBT: 70 pts
-RBT: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-Frostheart Phoenix: 240 pts

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Last edited by Shadeseraph on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:28 pm 
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It looks like a solid list. Saying that no BoTWD makes this not hard is funny to me. You have AM4 with the book on death or shadow, a ton of hard hitting good sized units and a frost phoenix. In Swedish comp, btw, this list would get a 9.2 , which is a fairly hard score, not broken at all, but very strong. The banner doesn't change an army unless it's on a larg unit, the book is much stronger.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Cable wrote:
It looks like a solid list. Saying that no BoTWD makes this not hard is funny to me. You have AM4 with the book on death or shadow, a ton of hard hitting good sized units and a frost phoenix. In Swedish comp, btw, this list would get a 9.2 , which is a fairly hard score, not broken at all, but very strong. The banner doesn't change an army unless it's on a larg unit, the book is much stronger.


To be fair, I've been testing different lores (2 games on shadows, 2 games on heavens, 1 game on high magic and 1 game on light). I suppose a big part of why I don't consider it so "hard" is because I don't ever throw more than 3 dice to a spell unless I absolutely need to (such as a 2+4 first turn magic phase with shadows, with only 2 spells worth casting and me needing withering to make all those bows worth it. And a 6-3 phase is enough to make me shy out of using magic at all, lately. Too many IFs under my belt, and I hate those with a passion; my archmage seems to only know the ranges 1-3 and 10-12 of the miscast table). I've never used mindrazor, either.

As for the book, gotta say my last battles have been so luck based that it didn't do much, but I suspect so.

Finally, the banner. It may be because all of the armies I've fought against lately had magic attacks on their most powerful units (Skullcrushers, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Nurgle Beasts, Vampire Lords, Grail Knights, all kind of characters...), and my more or less MSU-MMU style army outdeployed them without much problem, but in all of them the banner would have proved invaluable at tying down those units even on a small-ish block such as the DPs.

Also, I've seen a lot of people running blocks of at least 20-25 for most units, or 15 for Silver Helms, and it seems to be the norm of what is considered to be "good". Or dual Frostheart Phoenix. All in all, what I meant is that I tried to do a balanced, combined arms army without any key block rather than an "unbalanced" army, which seems to be the norm on competitive gaming. There isn't any solid point denial unit either, and the most expensive unit is the one housing the archmage.

And my streak of loses disagrees with you too: I've yet to win a game with this list (4 loses, 1 draw, 2 unfinished) xD. Although that could be my fault, rather than the list's :P.

EDIT: Also, with that comp system just removing the book and swapping lore to beasts or metal (something I've considered, as the book hasn't been that great for me, and I'll try those lores eventually) would give me 4.4 or 4.5 pts and leave me at 13.6/13.7, which is almost a friendly list according to that comp. I've been reading a bit, and it would be worth it because of the bonus VPs, although I'd pick a scroll to replace the book, which is 0.7 pts.
After all, this list doesn't depend on magic to battle, and I can do well even without the book. It helps, of course, but not so much it's worth 405 VPs on its own (55 from the cost, 350 from the comp).

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Last edited by Shadeseraph on Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:20 pm 
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If you use the banner in your army it won't have much effect, and that's what I meant. Swedish comp reflects this as well - on a 15 or smaller infantry unit it's only -10 with an extra -3 for each character of the same unit type as the sb.
As for the results, it can be you, or that the list isn't balanced, which I doubt, or, if you're playing in a low or non comped environment, that other lists are too op. double frost starts at -85 on Swedish, without taking into account generic penalties for larg targets etc. so ya, there are much harder lists than yours, they would probably be illegal under Swedish comp, probably under ETC too.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:24 pm 
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I want to add that I didn't mean to say that you are a bad player in any way. It takes time to learn a list, and sometimes it may not fit your playing style. If you give me a shooting / evasion list I'd probably be lost, for example, regardless of how strong the list may be.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:15 pm 
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Cable wrote:
I want to add that I didn't mean to say that you are a bad player in any way. It takes time to learn a list, and sometimes it may not fit your playing style. If you give me a shooting / evasion list I'd probably be lost, for example, regardless of how strong the list may be.


No problem :P. Actually I was being kind of unfair, as 3 out of those 4 loses were due to horrible luck. Just to highlight the most obvious one, it was a blood and glory battle against VC where my archmage blowed himself up on first turn trying to cast his first spell (with three dice xD), and in my second round the BSB+SHs lost a battle they should have won by a fair marging (charging against S&B skelletons), and then failing a rerollable LD8 break test. That's 4 out of 6 points, auto-losing. The other battles were kind of similar.

Only one of the battles, against WoC, was more or less even in terms of luck, and I lost because of a combination of me not knowing the book (I though warhounds were fast cav), some critical rules getting forgotten on the middle of the battle (LD4 stupidity chaos trolls outside of the BSB and general bubble) and me wanting to test Heavens against a less than ideal target (although that made it a very good test for the lore, I want a lore that helps me overcoming my army weaknesses, not a lore that helps me rolfstomping specific enemies while being useless against other). That, and the list was -3.3 according to the Sweeden Comp.

As for the banner, it would have helped hugely in all those games if housed on the dragon princes. It would have pinned down the Lord of Change, which was the only real headache on the daemon list I played against (and they didn't do much, anyway, as they were killed by a flaming chariot that didn't had flaming attacks ¬¬). It would have pinned down the 2 units of skullcrushers (they were horribly deployed), both of which had ensorcelled weapons, freeing my main combat blocks to deal with those damned BSB and DP against that pesky WoC list. It would have helped keeping the two trigger happy pegasus bret characters on check. And so on.

The banner wouldn't have helped against VC, though. I mean, my opponent didn't need to do anything for me to lose xD.

Asides from that, the only thing that makes my list "hard" according to the sweeden comp is the book and using lore of shadows, which I've used only 2 battles, or lore of death which I still haven't used. Other than that, in fact, it seems most of the things I've picked are on that sweet spot before the value of the units start getting out of hand :P.

Aaaanyway. Any suggestions? I'm doing a second list for fluffy battles (Hoeth/Asuryan temple), but for "competitive" gaming and non-fluffy gaming I'm quite happy, but I do think there are some things that may be polished. My latest battles have shown I don't really need more redirectors, so I don't really need eagles. I feel I'm lacking war machine hunters, but as of today the only warmachines I've found are trebuchets, which aren't that dangerous, as both the brets and me want to get into combat ASAP, and hellcannons, which common warmachine hunters won't manage to do anything to. But they could be a problem on the foreseable future against, for example, dwarves.

About lore: I've been thinking Metal may be a natural fit for my army. I may try getting a ring of fury if I do, though, as I need at least a decent MM against ethereal units.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:21 am 
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Small change: Swapping the WL champs and an archer for a ring of khaine's fury would be all right? I feel I need a source of MM, as the maidens aren't enough against ethereal enemies, and a fifth spell would help lots at pressuring the enemy on the magic phase.

On the other side, I'm a bit worried about the limited range of soul quench. I could take the red ruby instead, but those additional 1D6 hits make soul quench so much more interesting...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:02 am 
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I don't think you need the champs in the WL unless you have nobles or something in there so the champs can accept challenges for them. The ring may be a bit short range on the AM; it's usually better suited for lvl 1-2 mages, nobles, or the LM since they're much more likely to be up at the front but it would definitely be worth the champs or archer.

Overall I really like the list. It is a bit too much MSU for me but I can digg it. I have a very, very similar build in the works except the SH, PG, and WL run in bigger numbers. I'm also thinking about attempting a cav prince. It seems like it would allow the SH bus a lot more hitting power.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:28 am 
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Yah, pretty much my conclusions. I added the champ to increase a bit the hitting power, specially against monsters and the like, but I feel the versatility the ring brings outweights that single attack in each unit.

The prince is something I've thought before, but I absolutely need a BSB in my experience (I fail enough LD tests with rerolls) and running a prince in addition to the BSB and the archmage means I'd need to lose a combat block, and right now I feel I am in my personal sweet spot (used to have 2x15 PG and 2x10 WL, but decided to remove one of the PG units to boost the numbers and get the banners).

Personally, I love MSUs with a passion. I know it's not for everyone, but I like moving tons of things around :P. I don't feel this is a true MSU army, but it is close enough for me. I want to try a variant of this list with a Loremaster instead, but the increased cost means I'll have to swap some units for cheaper substitutes, mainly PG for swordmasters, which makes it into a true MSU army.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:34 pm 
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Updated the lists with a couple changes. The first one is my original list with further changes.

Archmage list:
Code:
LORDS (300 pts)
-Archmage Lvl 4 - Book of Hoeth, Ring of Khaine's Fury: 300 pts

HEROES (161 pts)
-Noble Battle Standard Bearer - Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Barded Steed, Lance, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness: 161 pts

CORE (628 pts)
-8 Silver Helms (shields) - Standard Bearer, Champion: 203 pts
-12 Archers: 120 pts
-14 Archers: 140 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts
-5 Reavers (spear): 80 pts

SPECIAL (890 pts)
-15 Phoenix Guard - Standard bearer with Razor Banner, Musician: 295 pts
-15 White Lions - Standard bearer with Banner of the Eternal Flame, Musician, Champion: 235 pts
-15 White Lions - Musician, Champion: 215 pts
-5 Dragon Princes: 145 pts

RARE (520 pts)
-RBT: 70 pts
-RBT: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-Frostheart Phoenix: 240 pts


This second list is an attempt at a real MSU army, kind of an experiment. Chariots instead of princes for extra mobility at the cost of reduced endurance and possibly hitting power, and 2 small-ish units of swordmasters to give some support.
I want to try some shadow warriors, but I can't help but feel that for that cost another RBT, chariot, or more sisters are a better option. For now, let's see how I can use them.

Loremaster list:
Code:
LORDS (320 pts)
-Loremaster of Hoeth - Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyn, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor: 320 pts

HEROES (161 pts)
-Noble Battle Standard Bearer - Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Barded Steed, Lance, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness: 161 pts

CORE (628 pts)
-8 Silver Helms (shields) - Standard Bearer, Champion: 203 pts
-12 Archers: 120 pts
-14 Archers: 140 pts
-5 Reavers (bow): 85 pts
-5 Reavers (spear): 80 pts

SPECIAL (868 pts)
-8 Swordmasters of Hoeth: 104 pts
-8 Swordmasters of Hoeth: 104 pts
-5 Shadow Warriors: 70 pts
-15 White Lions - Standard bearer with Banner of the Eternal Flame, Musician, Champion: 235 pts
-15 White Lions - Musician, Champion: 215 pts
-Tiranoc Chariot: 70 pts
-Tiranoc Chariot: 70 pts

RARE (520 pts)
-RBT: 70 pts
-RBT: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-5 Sisters of Avelorn: 70 pts
-Frostheart Phoenix: 240 pts

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:03 am 
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No musician on the Archers and Helms
I like the 1st list more.

Have you considered this build for your BSB? Horse, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might.
+1 Re-rollable armour save and always S5.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:44 am 
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The helms lack musician because I run them 3x3 with the BSB. If I include a musician, the BSB will be pushed back one rank, and as their duty is adding as much CR as they can to the combat, the champion and the banner are more important, I feel. Still, a musician to reform after a pursue is kind of a big deal. Should I substitute the champ or the banner?

As for musicians on the archers... well, I suppose I could remove a couple archers to give them those musicians.

As for the sword of might, S6 is kind of a big deal for me. I try to get them moving for as long as I can, and if they get stuck into something they lack the strength to get out of a paper bag, anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:59 am 
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If you have musician it doesn't mean your BSB will definitely move to the 2nd rank. You can put BSB, Champ, Standard at the front if you wish. And if you're going 3x3 having the BSB in the 2nd rank is actually good as you can "Make Way" to the most ideal striking position.

All you need to do i drop either 3 archers or 1 archers and 1 Helm to get the 3 musician for each of the respective units.

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2015 - High Elves & Top HE

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:34 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
If you have musician it doesn't mean your BSB will definitely move to the 2nd rank. You can put BSB, Champ, Standard at the front if you wish. And if you're going 3x3 having the BSB in the 2nd rank is actually good as you can "Make Way" to the most ideal striking position.

All you need to do i drop either 3 archers or 1 archers and 1 Helm to get the 3 musician for each of the respective units.


This is where I slap myself silly, right? why, oh, why, would I forget about make way?

Damn, more points to sink. I'm fairly into the "Boys before toys" line of thoughts, but musicians do help quite a bit.

Maybe something like this (for core)?

-5 Reavers (bow) @ 85
-5 Reavers (bow) @ 85
-5 Reavers (bow) @ 85
-15 Archers, Mus @ 160 pts
-8 SH (shields) - SB,Champ,Mus @ 213

Same cost, one less bow than right now, one more FC unit. The reavers lose their (very) secondary role as flankers, and I lose the second bunker, but it looks good. The archmage still can run to the main blocks.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:42 am 
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I'd say which one to remove to allow for a musician depends on how likely you are to be challenged as the banner always gives +1 cr and the champ needs to hit to wound and get through AS but if the noble gets stuck in challenge you might lose more. Also things to consider includes how likely you are to flee and how much better doing a wound is than gaining +1 cr.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:55 am 
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daid13 wrote:
I'd say which one to remove to allow for a musician depends on how likely you are to be challenged as the banner always gives +1 cr and the champ needs to hit to wound and get through AS but if the noble gets stuck in challenge you might lose more. Also things to consider includes how likely you are to flee and how much better doing a wound is than gaining +1 cr.


Nah, no need to remove any. As pk-ng pointed, Make Way solves that. I need the champ to take challenges for the BSB, I need the banner for the extra SCR, and the music is nice to reform after an overrun, or to be able to turn if someone gets cute with you and tries to block the unit's wheeling move.

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