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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:43 pm 
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.::. Battle Report: 2400 vs Tomb Kings (low comp) .::.

My list:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard, Shield = 290
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 770

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield = 357
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120

Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 548

Army Total = 2398

TK:

King with GW
Nehek Lvl 4 Mage, Earthing Rod
Death Lvl 2 Mage, Scroll

Archers, horse archers
4 + 3 necro knights

Warsphinx
Necrosphinx
2 catapults
Casket

Spells: I grabbed Fiery, Hand of Glory, Apotheosis, Soul Quench. He took ward save, extra attack, kb, desiccation.

Plan was to avoid the worst combo-charges and play aggressively, using the mage as amplified ranged damage with Fiery playing an important role on putting pressure on his bunker.

Image
The fire-breathing dragon is the skycutter, the carmine dragon is the frostheart phoenix

I managed to grab first turn.

I moved up the bus awaiting my ranged presence, which proved to be relatively insignificant. The frosthard moved up fast, hoping to put pressure and disrupt him early on. Magic, I can't really remember much but I think I boosted the Archers' BS. Might've put a wound or two on a Sphinx. Overall, fairly insignificant T1.

Image

Strange proceeded to play passively, with the necrosphinx charging reavers who opted to run away. His magic phase saw him D&D the Helms, which I let through. He then proceeded to try Light of Death, which I dispelled. Both catapults failed to hurt the Phoenix.

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SHelms charged horse archers, phoenix into knights. I made a big mistake here as I moved the bus backwards, too afraid of the sphinxes. I should've played more aggressively and put everything into killing the necrosphinx: playing the phoenix like this was pretty much worthless with the bus being unable to take advantage of it. Magic & shooting: killed the Necrosphinx.

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He counter-charged the Phoenix and got off a couple of buffs. Light of Death obliterated Helms who fled from a Warsphinx charge. Phoenix held in combat.

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So this is where I would've wanted my bus in an aggressive position. I realized my error too late but tried to press home anyway. I moved the mage to Apotheosis range but it was scrolled.

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A bad position for me and Strange realized it: the 4 knights charged my bus and magic came up a huge 12v6 to aid him as well. The result was desiccation on me and +1A on him. Luckily, in combat I rolled well and managed to win while also avoiding killing blows. The worst had been weathered but he had taken a heavy toll on my bus.

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I weathered the knights and eventually brought them down. Magic + shooting left the other knights weak enough to be insignificant. When they were finally brought down, I was down to 2 princes + characters.

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He charged the Reavers who fled and he redirected with king + archers into flank of princes. However, he had the BSB here and I challenged with my Prince. He declined and his King was moved back. Unable to hurt the BSB, I was able to reform and thus only place characters in B2B with him, keeping the points for the bus + BOTWD protection intact. This was the position at the start of my T5:

Image

I then managed to get Fiery Convocation through his defenses on the Hierophant's unit. A very lucky bunch of rolls saw the unit almost completely wiped out. My shooting managed to kill the rest - including the hierophant! The Prince + BSB grinded out his unit and between crumble tests, magic and shooting the rest were pretty much wiped out as well. At the end of T6 his casket was left on 1W. The game ended ~1800vp in my favour, a big win to the High Elves. Had his Knights been a little more lucky, my bus could've been obliterated which would've left my squishy units easily accessible. It was a really bad mistake on my part not to play them aggressively when I had moved the Phoenix in like I did. In the end though, I was lucky to get out of it and even more lucky to snipe out his Hierophant (many thanks to RBTs and Sisters).

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:16 pm 
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I see you have used the skycutter some games now, what do you feel about it? As I love the model but hate the stats on it. Do it work for it's points?

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Thanks for the report Curu although what happened to Strange's Tomb King army list? I thought the Sphinxes were getting kicked to the curb?

Sorry Curu, I won't/can't really comment on your game as I don't really have much experience with the High Elves currently but you've identified where you went wrong in terms of getting your bus into the action a lot earlier.

@Strange - perhaps dual Necrosphinx may suit your play style more? It seems to me the Warpshinx didn't do a hell of a lot this game unfortunately. Even 1-2 entombed units to threaten the back lines might be an option worth exploring? Shame your Knights couldn't score a KB on the characters in the bus however!

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:01 am 
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It looked like High Magic was pretty useful for you Curu? Are you sticking with it?

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:55 am 
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@Danidude - it has done nothing and died easily. As my list drafts show, it has gotten the stick.

@Jimmy - this game is about a week old already ;) It was one of the deciding factors in ditching the Sphinx, next game will likely feature 0 or 1.

@Atlantic - indeed I will keep using High Magic! Especially now that I`m going for the bus approach, making it an excellent lore.

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:04 am 
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.::. Battle Report: 2400 vs Daemons of Chaos (low comp) .::.

My list:
Prince with 1+ re-rollable, S7
Archmage with BoH
Noble BSB Star Lance
Noble Crown of Command + Crown of Atrazar

All on horsies.

18 + 15 Archers
3x5 Reavers

11 DP, FC, BOTWD, Ogre Blade

2 RBTs
5 Sisters
1 Frostheart Phoenix

His list:
Lord of Change with supergift, minigift
Nurgle BSB on palanquin with regen locus

32 Plaguebearers, FC +1M banner
5 Furies
12 Bloodletters, musician

6 Beasts of Nurgle
1 Beast
1 Beast
5 Ambushing Hounds

2 Skullcannons

Pre-battle thoughts and deployment: there were 2 units I knew I couldn't count on killing swiftly: the block of beasts and the plaguebearers. While they were unlikely to kill me, they could easily hold for long enough for the rest of his forces to wipe me out. While the Archers presented a threat to his Lord of Change, if they could be dealt with by him bypassing the cavbus he would pretty much kill anything apart from the mounted guys.

Deployment saw me choose table edge and I chose the one with walls: this section had a pretty good overview and would allow my RBTs a bit more survivability against the Skullcannons, also helping me to control his LoC better. I got Archers on a hill and the cavbus centrally placed.

Magic saw me get Fiery, Soul Quench, Walk Between Worlds and Hand of Glory. I got a pretty poor selection so couldn't choose a whole lot but the resulting spells weren't terrible. His LoC had metal and got plague of rust, transmutation of lead, enchanted blades and of course final transmutation. His Nurgle Lvl 1 managed to roll the regen spell. For gifts he got +1DD for free every time he attempted a dispel and the wand of whimsy.

// HE T1 //

I forgot to take a picture of deployment and got first turn. I forgot to vanguard, hence the "slow" reavers shown in the picture. I moved up the cavbus to a central position with lots of options. Magic was 6+1 and he managed a channel. I was hoping to cast Soul Quench + Fiery Convocation which would've left him in an awkward position but with 7v7 and his bonus DD this would've been futile, even with the BoH. I started off with Hand of Glory instead, hoping he'd simply let it go on 1D6. He didn't but he also failed to dispel even with 2D6 of his own and my Archers were now BS5. I then cast 6D6 Fiery which received IF. He rolled very well for his Plaguebearers' ward saves and only lost 8. In return, my Archmage forgot this spell + hand of glory. Shooting saw the Sisters take off a beast's regen, which helped my BS5 Archers kill it off. The RBTs targeted Skullcannons but both missed.

Image

// DoC T1 //

Everything moved towards the bus, although angled so that he had multiple options. He placed the Furies directly in front of me to chaff off. Magic - he got enough dice and dispelled fiery. Winds however meant I lost a couple of Reavers here and there, panic luckily passed. Shooting saw one Skullcrusher smash apart a wall. The other failed to multiply its wounds beyond 1, leaving a sole crew member.

Image

// HE T2 //

With only Soul Quench and Walk Between Worlds, my magic phase went from dangerous to downright trivial to contain. I thus decided to charge the Fury, leaving me with only a single spell to cast. The Reavers moved in closer to be of us later, one unit blocking his block and the Sisters shuffled a bit. I moved up the Frostheart to kill off the Letters. Magic saw me get 6+1 again, this time no channel. I cast 6D6 Walk Between Worlds on the small Archers to move them to his extreme flank, which would allow me to control his LoC better. I again got two 6's and this time I rolled a 4 and my Archmage disappeared. Despite the BOTWD, a couple of DPs went with him. Shooting saw an RBT finally connect with a cannon and dealt 3W to it. The other failed to hit. Sisters hit Plaguebearers with big Archers and took off a couple while small Archers managed a wound on his LoC.

Image

// DoC T2 //

Nurgle infantry charged blocking reavers, nurgle beast blocked bus. LoC flew over the hill to avoid Archers. Hounds arrived behind RBT. Magic: luckily contained, he got off the regen spell but with the sisters around I didn't care. Shooting: both Skullcannons targeted the Phoenix, both shots were saved on a '4'. Yay 6's for winds!

Image

// HE T3 //

His careless positioning of the Beast + Skullcannon had presented me with a wonderful opportunity to get back into the game: the Beast didn't cover my Prince and the Skullcannon was angled so that a Reaver overrun would bring them into the LoC. This would lock him down long enough for me to charge him with the Prince. It was a long shot, but well worth it in my opinion since an RBT had taken the cannon down to 1W. The charges hit home and the Phoenix went towards the Letters. The bus moved backwards. Magic saw me roll winds for +1I on the Phoenix. Shooting - plucked down a couple more plaguebearers.

Combat: killed the Cannon and overran (needing 5+) to lock the LoC.

Image

// DoC T3 //

Beasts into Reavers. I should've fled, but held. Lone beast blocks bus again. Plaguebearers move towards Archers, hounds charge RBT. Magic sees him get off Final Transmutation on the DP and I lose a couple along with the stubborn-fighter-noble. Luckily the BSB survives. Shooting sees the Skullcannon connect with the Phoenix, dealing it 2W.

Combat sees the LoC kill the Reavers and reform, same for the Beasts.

Image

// HE T4 //

Prince charges LoC along with Frostheart. I position them so that the beasts cannot wheel past the prince to charge the frostheart and as he'll be locked in a challenge they won't be able to contribute significantly. Besides, I wouldn't want my bird on 3W to suffer from poison attacks. Bus(if it can be called such any longer) charges lone beast and I need them to win in 2 rounds to aid my Prince later on. Avelorn sisters block Plaguebearers, I cannot have them block off the bus from helping the Prince. Magic 4++ again on the Phoenix, shooting a couple of Plaguebearers.

Combat and he rolls very well with the LoC indeed and only loses a single wound to my attacks + combat resolution combined (I had charge + downhill + wound vs nothing, Blizzard Aura thank you!). Frustrating. I kill the sole Beast with Star Lance + combat resolution and reform.

Image

// DoC T4 //

Beasts into Prince, Plaguebearers into Sisters. Magic sees him get off plague on my Prince, luckily still no whimsy charges. Shooting is insignificant. Hounds are done with RBTs and move towards the Archers. Combat sees the Sisters survive and he decides to pursue them. My Prince again rolls poorly against his LoC (or rather he makes 3/4 saves) and in return I'm wounded once. With his flank + charge I lose by 2 but hold on both break tests.

Image

// HE T5 //

Bus into rear of Beasts, Sisters rally. Archers try and move away but fail swift reform. Perhaps I should've simply marched and wheeled instead. Magic gives me +1S on Phoenix. Combat: I kill a couple of beasts but not enough, he can't hurt my back but the retarded slime trail rule (as if they weren't hard enough!) means I cannot win convincingly. The Prince struggles with the 5++ yet again and his LoC is left standing, the beasts losing but a wound or two to combat res.

Image

// DoC T5 //

Hounds into Sisters. I hold. Chariot into Frostheart (bad memories, ref. an old game vs rusty's ogres in which his Ironblaster finished off my Star Dragon in combat). Plaguebearers swift reform and move towards my bus. Magic: low winds grant him -1 to all ward saves. He gets plague off on the Prince, however this time around rolling 5+ isn't enough and I finally bring down the LoC. The chariot deals a wound through impact hits on the Frostheart but the S7 bird deals 2W to it in return. My bus manages a couple of wounds on the Beasts and he loses. The chariot pops and his beasts are reduced a bit.

Image

After this I charge the Frostheart into the beasts to help my prince out (with only a 3+ re-rollable and no protection from BOTWD I am concerned for his 2W possibilities and -1S helps a LOT). I managed a few wounds but no-where near enough, however he rolls double sixes for his break test and the beasts all go poof! I reform my bus to face his plaugebearers, which are reduced to only 8 + the Herald by the constant harassment from Sisters + Archers + initial Fiery. He decides not to charge me due to BOTWD and the game is over!

Counting up victory points I'm ahead by roughly 750. A win for the High Elves, but indeed a close game!

// Analysis //

The bus relies on getting favourable combats and using its charge potential to break through stuff. Against chaff, the first is hard. Against tough units, especially those sporting ward saves or regen, the second is hard. In this game I was facing both. People say DoC are hard countered by the BOTWD. In this game, my opponent was very close to simply breaking it down to a manageable size, oblitering the majority of the rest of my forces (only the archers + frostheart were alive at the end apart from the dps, prince and bsb).

Because of this, I think that the bus needs to play with greater flexibility. The Ring of Fury is an excellent start here, allowing me another spell and more importantly to have 2 magic missile casts. This would've been huge in this game. Furthermore, I need to play one unit of reavers closer to the bus, for "eagle-ish" duty. Winning the chaff war is paramount to the way this list plays. High Magic grants lots of tools to do just this: between WBW and Soul Quench you have an advantage from the get-go. Furthermore, I think the Ogre Blade is better on a Noble to give the bus better grinding power: not only does it mean he hits at S6, but this grinding power has more wounds than the champ. In return, the Drakemaster can wield the Star Lance: against most units where it's optimal he'll wound on 2+ anyways and I already have S7 from the Prince.

The rest of the list is fine. I am tempted to add yet another Noble or even a scroll-caddy lvl 1 which would help my magic phase tremendously (3 casts of soul quench means winning chaff wars should be trivial). The problem however is that I simply cannot find the points: the only way to achieve this is to drop from the rare slot which I am unwilling to do, at least at the moment. The bus is currently strong enough to handle most things and I'll have to make due with a single caster. The only things I cannot face head to head are insane deathstars where my shooting can make a difference, thus reducing my rares are counter-productive to the list's effectiveness. The best example is the 18-Irongut Maw-banner carrying Ogrestar. Against this unit I have no other option but to try and clear the rest and see how much my shooting can achieve. With chaff, a flank charge from the bus might be viable, but it's an opportunity rather than a tactic.

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:27 am 
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List revision based on the last couple of games:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour - 277
Archmage on Steed with Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury - 320
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Shield, Luckstone - 174
Noble on Barded Steed with Ogre Blade, Crown of Atrazar, Dragon Armour, Shield - 147

Characters: 918

18 Archers, musician - 190
15 Archers, musician - 160
5 Reavers - 80
5 Reavers, bows - 85
5 Reavers, bows - 85

Core: 600

11 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 429

Special: 429

5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 140
1 Frostheart Phoenix - 240

Rare: 450

Army Total: 2397

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Good win against a tough army! Have you found any moaning from your Daemonic opponents about The Banner so far? Personally (although I don't use it right now) I'd be happy to switch off the 2+ ward vs magic attacks if opponents never fired a skull cannon, but I bet they wouldn't go for that ;)

Also I must suggest a houserule at our club that for every cannon in the enemy army, a section of walls is placed on the table. It's so nice seeing them in action!


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Good win!

I have a few thoughts:

1. I think you are too aggressive in the amount of dice you are throwing during the magic phase. The Book of Hoeth does increase your chances of rolling a miscast and also lowers the amount of dice you need to get your spells off. I understand you were up against the crazy dispelling LoC, but I think the math was still on your side. The big Walk between worlds only needs 4 dice, I believe Fiery Convocation is a 4 or 5 er too (need to check the chart!).

2. It is pretty brave leaving your prince outside of the banner's protection!

3. I like your list. It shoots, it moves, it chops. The only tweak I might offer is to perhaps drop one of the nobles and then use his points to add another unit. How many points is the noble with the crown of command? The crown is amazing and I understand why you run him, but if your prince rides with the DP bus, you are very unlikely to lose combat. The crown might end up being overkill.

I used to play an extremely character heavy bret list. I ended up losing a couple of characters and used the points to provide a bit more target saturation. This might help take the pressure off of your bus and your frost bird. Maybe another flying unit to draw a bit more fire?


Anyway, great job!

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Hey Curu

First of all thanks for the report, its nice to see the cav bus in action :D

Great win, it looked like it was going to be a loss for a while and I was on the edge of my seat when your archmage got sucked into the void. The overrun move with the reavers to pin the LoC for your princes was masterful I must say. He was very lucky not to go down a whole lot faster.

You were hit hard in this game by my biggest concern with the cav bus, chaff! I think your definitely onto something with having on of your redirectors working closely with the bus. If nothing else some well timed feigned flight may open up some units for your bus to hit.

The list revisions sound sensible and I agree the star lance may not be necessary, see how it plays out in the next game.

A good game, looking forward to the next.

Caradryal

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:30 pm 
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does the bsb need dragon armour if you have dragon helm?

with banner of world dragon he gets a wardsave against death snipes etc.

revert back to heavy armour, and you can afford a lance and keep halberd, more options on the charge perhaps?

oh wait, I see now that the mage is in the unit to increase the ward save, it would still be nice to get a lance!

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:43 am 
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@Stormie - Nope, no moaning from Daemon players yet. Lots of general whine but never ingame and never from a Daemon player actually. Our maps are usually generated by the ETC chart. I think this is a balanced approach to terrain which makes for interesting games without being too over the top in either direction.

@Atlantic - The problem was not only his DD but also the Wand of Whimsy. I want to minimize his chances of achieving anything successful. If het gets 3-4 charges then suddenly even my 2++ will not see me safe. I had no choice re: prince moving out, it was my only option to have a chance. If I drop a Noble and the COC the bus becomes a lot more fragile. First of all the lack of grinding power makes it even easier to tie me up and second of all some ridiculous CR stuff will suddenly not be approachable. Another flyer unit is a serious investment, one that would need to see a big re-allocation of points which changes the way the list plays.

@Caradryal - I have a tendency for early turn disastrous miscasts. The Reaver gambit was simply an opportunity which I exploited but indeed the LoC should`ve popped way sooner. My opponent played his chaff very well and from this I learned a few lessons indeed. I think that I need to focus on killing chaff quite a bit though, not just having my own. It`s a combination of the two and I`m eager to try this out. The Star Lance is still in by the way, it just changed hands ;)

@sparkytrypod - With High Magic even a 6++ can be vital :) You cannot take both a Lance and a Halberd any longer, it`s either/or unless you take the Star Lance.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Good report. Is this DoC army the new "net list"?

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:33 pm 
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I don`t know. I don`t have a lot of experience vs Daemons nor have I seen many games involving them (either online or at the club). It would appear that nurgle-core with beasts in special and cannons in rare are likely to be the name of the game though. Apart from that I`m not sure what people consider to be the best but with that as the basic blocks I don`t know if it`s enough to call it a net list.

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Has the Daemon player actually put his Palanquin on a 50mm x 75mm base, to help retain ranks? Very cheeky and not ETC-legal!


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:22 pm 
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He had indeed. I have informed him of how the ETC rule this :) Outside though I think it`s fair game seeing as he`s MC.

I just had a game against rusty`s ETC Wood Elves. He`s visiting the town for a couple of days and brought his tree-huggers whom I haven`t faced in a long time. He used to have 2600 points to play with and despite the recent implicit nerf to Waywatchers (which he never uses anyways) giving him another 100 points was a clear boost. Suffice is to say it was an interesting game (as per usual). I have no idea when I have the time to put up a report, but it will come at some point.

In the meantime, perhaps you could share your list with reasoning, Rusty? I know there are some WE players around here as well :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:52 pm 
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rusty wrote:
Good report. Is this DoC army the new "net list"?


imo, no.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:07 am 
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+++ WE-2700-ETC13. 3 (2698pts)

+ Lords + (630pts)

    * Spellweaver (280pts)
        Dispel Scroll
Dragonbane Gem
Lore of Beasts,
Wizard level 4


    * Treeman Ancient (350pts)
        A Cluster of Radiants


+ Heroes + (194pts)

    * Noble (194pts)
        An Annoyance of Netlings
Battle Standard Bearer
Dragonhelm
Great Eagle
Great weapon
Opal Amulet


+ Core + (814pts)

    * Dryads (108pts)
        Branch Nymph. 8x Dryads (96pts)


    * Dryads (96pts)
        8x Dryads


    * Glade Guard (190pts)
        Banner of Eternal Flame. 13x Glade Guard.
Full command


    * Glade Guard (132pts)
        10x Glade Guard, Lord's Bowman, Musician


    * Glade Guard (132pts)
        10x Glade Guard, Lord's Bowman, Musician


    * Glade Guard (156pts)
        12x Glade Guard, Lord's Bowman. Musician


+ Special + (390pts)

    * Tree Kin (390pts)
        6x Tree Kin


+ Rare + (670pts)

    * Great Eagles


    * Great Eagles


    * Treeman


    * Treeman

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:44 pm 
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One question/comment about the game v DoC. In your T4 both the Prince and the bus charged. Was the Prince in the bus unit? If so, under normal WFB rules the bus cannot then charge the beasts. Not sure if this is changed under ETC rules.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:57 pm 
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John Rainbow wrote:
One question/comment about the game v DoC. In your T4 both the Prince and the bus charged. Was the Prince in the bus unit? If so, under normal WFB rules the bus cannot then charge the beasts. Not sure if this is changed under ETC rules.


If you look at the pictures, you can see that the prince moved out in turn 3 :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:18 pm 
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@Lord Anathir - what do you consider the DoC netlist to be?

@rusty - thanks for the list! I`m sure discussions will follow, on both our parts :)

@John Rainbow - ETC does not change anything here. The Prince moved out earlier as part of the plan to lock down the LoC, which eventually won me the game.

@Danidude - correct, observant reader! I will make sure to get better picture angles to show what`s going on in the future.

Furion recently posted up his ETC HE list and I must say it`s an interest approach he ended up choosing. Essentially his cavbus is comprised of Silver Helms instead of Dragon Princes, with a secondary combat unit carrying the BOTWD (White Lions). Furthermore, his Archmage sports Lore of Life. In a way, this makes perfect sense as Lifebloom synergizes greatly with our characters + birds. In another, I see it as less flexible than High. Dwellers is of course nice to have, but I can`t help but feel that in most matchups it`ll be too situational and expensive. I have previously discussed such an approach myself, but ultimately I believe this build to be something I`ll enjoy more. Essentially, at least outside of ETC comp, you will face units that are simply too hard to engage with the cavstar. In these cases it is essential to either trickle them down by shooting and magic or just avoid them altogether and kill off the rest. With Furion`s build you end up having to engage. In ETC with 2 Frosthearts, this might be fine. Cavstar + Lions + Frostheart + Life magic can indeed deal with just about anything. It`s an interesting take for sure and one I`ll enjoy seeing in action when he starts reporting games!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:25 am 
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.::. Battle Report: 2400 ETC vs Wood Elves .::.

Last week rusty was in town and although we hadn't originally planned for it, I suddenly had time for a game. It's been a long time since I last faced Wood Elves. Would I be able to handle the annoyance that is Rusty's MSU forest spirit mash or would the fey elves tear me apart? Read on!

Lists:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour - 277
Archmage on Steed with Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury - 320
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Shield, Luckstone - 174
Noble on Barded Steed with Ogre Blade, Crown of Atrazar, Dragon Armour, Shield - 147

Characters: 918

18 Archers, musician - 190
15 Archers, musician - 160
5 Reavers - 80
5 Reavers, bows - 85
5 Reavers, bows - 85

Core: 600

11 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Star Lance, Banner of the World Dragon - 429

Special: 429

5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 140
1 Frostheart Phoenix - 240

Rare: 450

Army Total: 2397

+++ WE-2700-ETC13. 3 (2698pts)

+ Lords + (630pts)
* Spellweaver (280pts)
Dispel Scroll
Dragonbane Gem
Lore of Beasts,
Wizard level 4
* Treeman Ancient (350pts)
A Cluster of Radiants

+ Heroes + (194pts)
* Noble (194pts)
An Annoyance of Netlings
Battle Standard Bearer
Dragonhelm
Great Eagle
Great weapon
Opal Amulet

+ Core + (814pts)

* Dryads (108pts)
Branch Nymph. 8x Dryads (96pts)
* Dryads (96pts)
8x Dryads
* Glade Guard (190pts)
Banner of Eternal Flame. 13x Glade Guard.
Full command
* Glade Guard (132pts)
10x Glade Guard, Lord's Bowman, Musician
* Glade Guard (132pts)
10x Glade Guard, Lord's Bowman, Musician
* Glade Guard (156pts)
12x Glade Guard, Lord's Bowman. Musician


+ Special + (390pts)
* Tree Kin (390pts)
6x Tree Kin
+ Rare + (670pts)

* Great Eagles
* Great Eagles

* Treeman
* Treeman

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

With +300 points, the WE are hard to face. They can get so many juicy things and put so much hurt on the table. Furthermore, Beasts is a fairly good lore against me. Curse slows down the bus and hurts my grinding power. Wyssans, Pelt and Savage Beast also make it harder to grind. The goal then was to take on smaller elements at a time and try not to get bogged down with things I cannot handle. The dual-cast of Soul Quench would provide me with flexibility and the Frostheart would allow for some mobile assistance, if able to avoid Amber Spear and arrow-spam. The latter is actually not that bad, seeing as it has a 5+/5++, which is over 50% chance to succeed.

Spells saw me get Soul Quench, Hand of Glory, Apotheosis and Fiercy Convocation. Rusty took Wyssans, Curse of Anraheir, Savage Beast and Transformation. Deployment was flank-heavy on both our parts. Rusty`s goal was apparantly to stall my bus centrally while killing my flank off. My plan was obviously to not let this happen. To win big I would need to preserve my weaker elements. I surprised him a bit near the end of deployment - my Prince went out on his own to cover the weak flank. Without Spear, he doesn`t really have any ranged threats to 1+ re-rollable.

Image

Rusty went first.

// WE T1 //

Movement on the flank was limited, the fear of my prince weighing heavily on his decisions. Magic saw Curse go through despite my efforts to dispel with the BoH. Shooting killed some reavers and archers, all tests passed (the former had moved to grant Sisters hard cover).

Image

// HE T1 //

With the Prince outside the bus it was no need to start losing models due to my lack of grinding power, so I decided not to march. Instead, this turn I was determined to kill off small stuff. I managed to grab an Eagle and some Archers, dual-quench proving very hard to be up against. Frostheart moved to weak flank and sole reaver blocked treeman.

Image

// WE T2 //

ETC virtual pivot allowed his Treeman to get away and he moved towards my back lines instead (this was the ancient by the way). Curse was again cast successfully on the bus. Dryads managed to sneak past the Prince`s charge arc. Shooting - more Archers died.

Image

// HE T2 //

I free reformed the bus to block the Treeman and thus preserve my rear. Magic drew a scroll as he didn`t want to take the chance of fiery on his bunker with dice to spare. Frostheart + Prince moved to block off dryads.

Image

// WE T3 //

Dryads couldn`t get out. Treeman charged bus. Magic, can`t remember. In combat, disaster struck for rusty as his Treeman failed his re-rollable LD9 test and I ran him down! Adding insult to injury, his BSB was parked behind and I overran into him.

Image

// HE T3 //

Prince into Dryads, Frostheart central. Magic - a couple of spells got off to boost my ward save. In combat I made the biggest brainfart for a long time as I challenged his annoyance BSB. I could`ve simply done nothing and would`ve had a million lances hitting home and killing him off, easily. He managed to hold, not losing a single wound. Prince beat Dryads and reformed.

Image

// WE T4 //

Treeman flanked the bus but failed. Other Treeman moved centrally. Mage swapped Archers to avoid Frostheart. Magic saw his BSB get Wyssan`s. He wounded my fighty noble once for none in return and passed his test.

Image

// HE T4 //

Prince into Treeman, frostheart into Archers. Magic - 2 spells off again. Combat - no wounds dealt, he held. Prince dealt a wound to the Treeman for none in return. He held.

Image

I`m a little fuzzy on the details, but essentially this is the rest of the game: his BSB killed my Noble and this time it was rusty`s time to brainfart. No challenge was declared and the attacks killed him. The treeman had gotten into the fight at this point and fled. I ran him down. Meanwhile my Reavers + RBTs were putting a heavy toll on his Mage + bunker, so in T5 he was stranded alone, forced to move out. With my Archmage out of combat, dual soul quench sealed the deal. The Prince rolled poorly against the Treeman and was down to 1W at one point. Apotheosis healed him back up though. Rusty tried to get some points for my frostheart by charging with Treekin. Its S6 magical attacks and -1S aura proved too tough though:

Image

In the last turn of the game I flank-charged his Treekin with my bus and front-charged with my prince. They were brought down to 2 models and the return attacks failed to take the last wound off of my phoenix. He broke, I ran him down.

Counting up, I had lost one unit of reavers and the fighty noble. Rusty had lost everything except for a unit of Dryads. A solid massacre to the High Elves!

// Analysis //

The dual casts of soul quench and the RBTs + Archers were significant in this game. It allowed me to force rusty into some hard decisions as he was constantly forced to take a pounding which WE are not used to. My weak flank performed admirably, it committed his deployment and kept shooting all game, bringing down dryads, archers and the mage bunker. The Sisters actually didn`t do a whole lot (I think they killed 1 dryad during the whole game, most of the time they shot Treemen but couldn`t find 6's to wound) but rusty kept trying to get at them. Hand of Glory proved to be a very effective spell in this war, making up for the WE's inherent advantage in not getting -1 to shoot from moving.

The bus lacks grinding power, especially without the prince. It`s very hard to bring down, but then again it doesn`t really do a whole lot. Knowing when to charge, when to split and when to simply cast magic is essential to the success of this list. It is not as straight forward as many other deathstars.

Rusty, Strange, Dark Reaper and I had a fairly thorough discussion in the aftermath of this game. The conclusion was that with the current meta, melèe-WE simply cannot work. You have too many bad matchups that you simply cannot handle. While the bus is obviously untouchable for Tree Spirits, there are a lot of other armies in the game who have equally bad units to deal with. I think Rusty will try and opt for a more shooty-avoidance type of army, swapping Tree Kin for fast cav and more archers. Such an army is incredibly frustrating to deal with and with triple treemen he still has a significant combat presence without commiting to this phase.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:49 am 
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Thanks for a great game. Payback will have to wait till next time :wink:

About the game. This matchup is in hindsight probably one of the worst for WE. Botwd makes half the HE army immune to half the WE army. WE shooting is strong, but only at short range. At long range they are par or sub-par to HE. And the only units that ventured into short range is very close to immune to S4; phoenix, prince and dragon princes.

Second, Curu played a brilliant game in protecting his weaker elements from my shooting and roaming forest spirits. I should have been able to reach some of his shooting, but were blocked at every opportunity. Also, I made some errors. One eagle was placed too far off to block the dragon princes when the first eagle that was detailed for the duty died. In hindsight, I should probably concentrated all my trees on the right flank and pushed forward past the prince and phoenix. As it was, I held of, worrying about the threat from prince and phoenix.

Finally, the Ancient breaking on rerollable 9 (1/36 chance ) turned what might have been a draw or minor loss into a clear massacre.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:04 am 
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Looking at the High elf army, I like the new book, with the exception of botwd. Curu's army is flexible and capable. I'd like to see it up against Empire though.
In the final ETC draft it looks like there wil be a choice between BoH and Botwd. Which will it be?


As for WE, I had a long discussion with Amund who has played WE a lot. His conclusion was that all shooty-and-avoidance WE was the most powerful. The one problem: It's dead boring after a while.

I'll keep trying to make WE work, one way or the other. At the moment though, HE does everything WE does, only better.

On another note, when will we see the HE monster army?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Thank you as well :) Looking forward to our next encounter!

I think the matchup is more than managable for WE, even with the treekin approach. Basically you need to respect the fact that the bus isn`t going to die and lose as little as possible to it. Sort of the same as facing the Empire cavstar, the old WoC Chosenstar, a VC characterbus with black knights etc. That gives you roughly 1000 points to kill: the core (600) and rare (400). No easy feat by any means, but with 2 Eagles and multiple expendable archer units, stalling for long enough should be possible. It`ll likely be a close game, but it`s not an auto-loss as opposed to facing flame-heavy CD.

The Eagle placed too far away definitely hurt a lot, but I think an even worse decision was to charge the ancient into the bus. True, I had blocked him from getting into my rear. However, as soon as the bus goes into combat, even without the prince, you start losing points. There`s still a fighter in there with S6 magical attacks, which means that you`re losing over a wound per combat phase on average. Granted you shouldn`t break, but I see no reason to charge in as opposed to being a roadblock, allowing the Eagle to get into a position where you need it. As it were, the Eagle indeed ended up simply dying to archers because it had nothing to do. When facing a deathstar, an Eagle should never be in this position. Of course the LD9 break test failing was disastrous and not something you shouldn`t be able to count on, but still.

If you had thundered down the Prince`s flank I would`ve been forced to play a different game. The essence of this move is that it forces me to either commit the bus to the flank, from which it is hard to get enough time to kill off everything, or I go after your mage + center and end up risking my general + majority of core + rare. It might`ve worked, having the impassable thing near my flank and missing WBW really made a mockery of my usual, preferred deployment in such a situation. The Prince + Phoenix combined can indeed do a LOT of damage to forest spirits though.

As for shooty avoidance WE I think it would be great fun to play. I mean, we`re not talking about a lot more than swapping the Treekin for something else: 3 Treemen still pack a significant punch. Also, with this approach Life might be better than Beasts: resurrecting fast cav for block purposes, T8 treemen-blockers and Dwellers to give you a shot at hard-as-nails-deathstars...

As for the ETC thingy I reckon most will take the Banner. This is because Banner can be taken with Dispel Scroll, which is still an insanely good item. Yes, BoH is very good as well, but to bring it you need to take a second mage to get the scroll. Besides, ETC seem to be making the BoH count as 2DD anyways, which is way too OTT in my opinion. Perhaps we`ll see some specialized builds go for it, but I reckon almost everyone will go scroll + banner instead.

The HE monster mash has already been tried out by some. I am very hesitant to field it, in ETC it is comped beyond belief and outside it simply isn`t strong enough. When they priced the Star Dragon they pretty much took the option of a combat-dragonlord out of the book, except if you`re playing games of 3k+ points. This means that the flying circus boils down to a version pretty similar to the WoC monster-list: you hit hard on the charge but can`t withstand a whole lot. HE do however lack a lot of the options that make the WoC monster-mash viable. If I want to play monster lists either with or without ETC comp I am way more likely to bring forth WoC. Shame, really, but I can`t help the fact that it seems useless.

I`d like to face Empire with this list. Uncomped, it`s a nightmare if it`s tailored right. Uncomped, such an empire army has a ton of other problems though. Not too many Empire players around, those who play regularly play alternative builds mostly, as far as I know.

Lastly I want to share a thought I`ve had since I read Furion`s list: Life magic. While High Magic provides a lot of flexibility, Life largely does the same. Apotheosis is far inferior to Lifebloom and Dwellers is almost always better than Fiery Convocation. Awakening is a poor man`s Soul Quench, which can be terribly strong with Throne, Regrowth is great with both the bird and the bus and lastly flesh to stone is amazing. That leaves 2 spells, shield which is useless (as is Tempest) and Earth Blood which can be quite nice (like Drain). Furthermore, Life synergizes greatly with the Book, its casting values make casting spells on 2-3D6 a very lucrative option. What are your thoughts on this matter? Worth a try? Remember that this list is targeted at fairly lowcomped play, not ETC restrictions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:06 am 
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I'm sorely tempted to give life a try myself.

The only thing stopping me is my previous experience using it with my Brets. It just felt like I was always losing dice to throne of vines and too afraid to cast dwellers without it as my prophetess blowing up lances is just brutal.

The banner takes that worry away though as it will protect from miscast damage. Khaine's ring+ life looks pretty good.

I think Shadow is perfectly viable as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:14 am 
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I'm probably playing in a tournament which doesn't comp Life magic in a couple of weeks so I think I'm going to try Life at its full power. Will certainly make a change!

Very illuminating battle against the Wood Elves, although he seemed a bit lunlucky to have two Treemen break, it happens, and it shows what a power difference we have. I was quite disappointed when an opponent turned up with Bretonnians rather than Wood Elves a couple of weeks back, although in truth I was happy for the much tougher game :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:30 pm 
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@Atlantic - You shouldn`t think of Throne of Vines as dice lost. If your opponent dispels it, he loses dice as well. Fair deal, most of the time. Throwing Dwellers without is usually not something worth pondering anyway as it`s a brutally powerful spell. BOTWD does indeed help a lot here and Dragon Armour + Fury Ring frequently makes for a nice 5++.

@Stormie - Let us know how you do :) I think ETC WE can be brutal, they just need the right build and playstyle ;)

Pondering the lores I`ve decided to give Life a go. Reasoning is as follows:

On a general basis High Magic has 2 top priority spells: Soul Quench and Fiery Convocation. Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds, Apotheosis and Arcane Unforging are good secondaries. Drain is situational and Tempest is usually just bad. Life has 2 top priority spells: Flesh to Stone and Dwellers Below. Awakening, Throne and Regrowth are nice secondaries. Earthblood is situational and Shield is usually bad. However, the no. 1 spells in Life are far better than High. T5-T7 cavstar, T8-T10 phoenix and the most brutal anti-deathstar-spell in the game: can`t argue with that. I lose some utility but believe it is worth it. Practice will show :) Also I believe Lifebloom is at least as good as Shield of Saphery, might even be better considering Fury Ring and Earthblood can largely achieve decent protection as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:55 am 
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Hey Curu!
I've been away from the forum for an extended leave (i.e, university semester + other tabletop games) but I've returned with the release of our new book and I've had a really interesting read of your thoughts on the new book. Glad to see you're getting games in, and I'm really enjoying reading about the games, by the way!
I know I've said this before, but I plan on starting up a blog of my own once I start to get into the swing of our 8th edition book and start getting some games in!

Incidentally, the lists I'm looking at starting up for our 8th edition book come out either something extremely similar to Seredain's list or something extremely similar your most recent list once I'm finished building, so it's good to see a lot of conversation being kicked up about these lists.

First question - What is the justification for using a DP bus instead of a SH bus?
I was pondering this for my list, and I came to the conclusion that with the improvements in our rare slot with regards to the shooting units there, going shooting heavy in core is something I see as being viable. Not to mention being able to field chaff from core points. So now it comes down to the soft "cap" of the core minimum being "restrictive". Sorry if I'm not making sense. What I mean is that we want to spend as few points as possible in the core section of our list - but now there are units in there that add valuable support to our army, and by fielding helms from the core section I find I am somewhat lacking in the shooting department since I am trying to stick to the core minimum as my spending limit for core. Are there any other reasons for the DP bus? (Other than the obvious, they are simply better, of course) And this leads into my next question.

Since you are spending special points on a solid combat block, instead of core, you are giving up the option of using these points for other units - for example, if you substituted the DP bus for Helms you could purchase a combat block/additional support in terms of chariots/etc. Doing this means you only have one dedicated combat block, so:

Second question - How are you finding only having one serious combat block (the DP bus) and one monster? Personally I don't think I'm a good enough player to exist on only two solid combat threats, and as such the phoenix is a hard sell for me. I completely understand the power of the beast, but it's cost is more than another combat block, which seems (to me at least) to be the safer option (obviously not the better option, however!) if you're doing as I said above and using core points for shooting/redirection, and special for the DP's.

Lastly I don't want to come off like I'm trying to tell you I know better (I seriously don't! :mrgreen: ) but I thought I would ask because these are the concerns i've been having with lists that fall out very much the same as yours :)

Thanks and keep up the stellar work!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Hey Mentheus! I think starting a blog is a great idea if you want to learn and improve as a player.

The DP bus has multiple reasons. First of all, the Banner of the World Dragon. If I go with Helms, I need to ditch this altogether or move it onto the BSB. Also, I think the Drakemaster`s magic allowance gives you a lot more punch, for example with the Star Lance. Second, I want to have a decent ranged presence and redirectors in core. If I go with Helms I need to ditch or at least severely reduce one of these. Lastly, I'm not sure I want a second combat block. I haven't tried it out so perhaps I'm missing out terribly here, but currently I'm liking this setup quite a lot. I have been considering a unit of 40 Lions with BOTWD and running a helmbus for characters, might give it some more thought but it drastically changes the way the list plays.

I think this list has 3 serious combat threats. The Phoenix, Prince and cavalry all combine to make something that most units aren't capable of dealing with. Combine any of the two above and nearly anything can be taken on - go with all three and there's only a few units in the game which can stand their ground. The thing is that 3 units of Reavers and all the shooting really do grant a lot of board control, which allows the bus to pretty much do as it pleases.

I appreciate your input and critical questions. It makes me think and reconsider which is never a bad thing. This list has pretty much evolved from a starting point which largely resembled Seredain's 7th ed cav list. As such, there are a number of variants I simply haven't tried out yet. I might get around to it, but at the moment I'm more keen on taking things one step at a time, i.e. don't fix something if it ain't broken :) I don't by any means think this is necessarily the strongest list we can bring to the table though and indeed I'd be very interested in seeing other cav prince variants (in particular battle reports!). Again, I may well end up doing something like including a big block of lions if I feel I need more hitting power.

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