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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:04 pm 
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1. Indeed, there are lots of anti-chaff tools. However, having a few S3 shots also help against monsters that sport a poor armour save. Examples include Phoenix, Great Eagles, Griffons, Greater Daemons, Sphinx, Spider. If you ditch Archers in favour of Spears you need a solid reason to take them, in my opinion. In a combined arms list which can play on so many different levels, the Spears will more often than not be a liability whereas Archers can provide utility. Furthermore, Archers aren't exactly crap in combat either: with WS4 and ASF they are perfectly capable of holding their own against anything that isn't a dedicated combat unit.

4. Again, RBTs provide board control. They are also quite cost-efficient against MC and provide a threat against flying tough things (e.g. Dragons, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons). There's no way I'm letting them go in this kind of list. I believe the only HE lists that can play without RBTs at all are monster mash and cavstar ones.

6. I've thought about it! See the discussion below.

As to your new questions:

1. With such a setup, I believe Naval Discipline is worth its weight in gold. It pretty much allows you to charge something, run it down and not have to worry about being flanked or whatever. Furthermore, characters in deep shit can be reformed corner-to-corner instead of in the center, if needed. Lots of utility and an extra attack for -30 points isn`t worth it in comparison, in my opinion.

2. I'm not trying to guarantee anything, he's there to draw a scroll and provide double casts of Wyssan's. Furthermore, Miasma and Iceshard are extremely cost-efficient combat buffs.

3. True, the "exchange rate" here is pretty much 2-1 ;)

4. True again. It was just a concept. I doubt I'll pursue it.

<===>

Having had a few games and read tons about the new High Elves both here and on other sites, let's review my current list:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
2+ re-rollable sure isn't 1+ re-rollable. S7 Chaos stuff suddenly makes you anxious for example. I have yet to decide which I favour more though, OTS brings a LOT of value (especially uncomped!). One thing is for sure: the Giant Blade + Dawnstone aren't going anywhere and the Prince is a very solid choice.

Grade: A

High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
The perfect magic center for this army, in my opinion. I find Endurance to be sufficient, given the lore attribute. It helps him out greatly in a lot of situations and allows him to play quite aggressively, for a mage. The only problem I have with this guy is his spell selection. If there had been some way to give him 5 spells it would be perfect. I think this is his biggest weakness, but one that can be played around most of the time given our 2 flexible signature spells.

Grade: A

BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
This is quickly becoming my favourite setup. The Star Lance is absolutely devastating and combined with the super-cheap Potion this guy can tag-team with the Prince to bring out an incredible 8 S7 attacks in a single charge, half of which allow no armour save!¨

Grade: A

Characters = 767

5 Reavers, Musician = 90
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95

My Reaver usage so far has been so-so. Considering they cost 300 points, they definitely should do more. This is largely my fault and not that of the unit itself, but regardless I'm leaning towards 3 being too much. I'm also strongly considering dropping the musician.

Grade: D

15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160

Being able to deploy these 3x5 and get full effect is just beautiful. It makes them so much easier to play around with and their combat ability improves as a bonus. S3 is however full of short-comings and there's only so much they can do.

Grade: C

Core = 600

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 347
The Sword has been so-so thus far. Banner of the World Dragon is very powerful, but then again this unit truly doesn't fear that many spells. The question then is obviously if War Machines etc are frequently magical and I think this is the killer: Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven will struggle no end to take these down. I have been considering whether to take Silver Helms instead and drop some Archers and some Reavers which would effectively allow me to take a horde of Lions with the BOTWD alongside this hammer. This does however majorly change the way the army plays and although it looks better on paper when you initially see it, you soon realize that it suddenly plays worse against its previously terrific matchups (i.e. I consider Dwarfs to be a really good matchup with this current army). Because of this, I think the Dragon Princes have to stay. Their inability to grind is however a big problem. Taking the Sword of Anti Heroes over the Ogre Blade might be something I have to re-think, as the latter grants me a LOT more grinding power. Also, as long as I'm running the OTS on the Prince I think the Drakemaster deserves the Enchanted Shield.

Grade: B

10 White Lions = 130

Without a doubt the unit I'm the least satisfied with. They feel like a necessary evil but the more I think about it, the less sure I am that they actually are necessary in the first place. Yes, 10 S6 attacks are a lot to fear, but at T3, 5+ and virtually no mobility to speak of relative to being a counter-attack unit, I'm not so sure it even matters. Looking at it another way, when will these guys ever get into a favourable combat?

Grade: E

Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
I still believe that these are overcosted relative to the other artillery that's in the game. Regardless, they are no long ridiculously overcosted which in effect means that they are pretty much a must-have unless you're going for some kind of unique army style. Their board control is amazing and their multi-shots allow them to threaten war machines as well as clear chaff efficiently. Their superb range ensures that they can be deployed independently and still contribute quite effectively, something I've come to enjoy. At the end of the day though, I really think these should either be a bit more killy or a bit cheaper.

Grade: B

7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
A necessary evil. I don't believe in S4 shooting with the current meta. Most things worth shooting are either too tough (1+) or too numerous (Orcs, Skaven...) to be worth shooting at with single-shot 14ppm units. True, they have a couple of terrific matchups but I just don't see this being worth investing in when most of these matchups are already tolerable or hopeless in the first place. For example, Ogres are actually not that bad with all the shooting I already have (especially considering their IB is 0-1 with the comp on the upcoming tournament) and the combined power of the cavalry + frostheart. Against Chimerae, Trolls and VC regen-spam they are a necessity though, without a doubt. My main issue with these is that they are eating into my rares, basically forcing me to drop a Repeater.

Grade: C

1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
I said it as soon as I heard the rumours and I still believe this to be true: this is the single strongest unit in our book. Barring metas where you frequently run into a million war machines, this bird is so ridiculously powerful. I wouldn't leave home without it if you're packing any kind of fighting characters that aren't in an infantry deathstar, that's for sure.

Grade: A

Rare = 548

Army Total = 2392

So, what are my thoughts with regards to this army? All the changes I've made thus far point in one direction - the list (at least the way I prefer to play it) is essentially a shooty-avoidance list with strong counter-attack elements. In fact, these are so strong that I'm not hopelessly lost when I'm outgunned. As I said previously, I do believe that Dwarfs for example are actually a favourable matchup the way it stands now. To this end, I want more flexibility, more movement, more shooting. The units I are the least happy with need to be replaced, at least for a couple of games, to see if I can make other configurations work better. At the same time, I have to maintain my ability to threaten stuff that is simply getting too close for comfort. I thought I'd never say this, but enter the Skycutter with a Bolt Thrower. It is a poor man's RBT in terms of board control, but it's so much better in terms of playing defensively in an avoidance playstyle. I think it can largely fulfil the role of the Lions with regards to helping my rear echelon out. Also, I don't see this change impacting my poor matchups at all and it enhances my strong matchups.

Second, core: I'm very fascinated by the SHelm-dart. I think it is a unit with a lot of potential. Furthermore, it gives me more utility against armies that spam S3 (Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, High Elves primarily). As I said I think 3 Reavers are too much. 5 upgraded SHelms with a musician is only 125 points. Adding a 6th, which is pretty much just "optimal" considering Martial Prowess, brings it to 148. This is easily achieveable with re-configuring.

The revised list is thus as follows:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield = 347
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120

Special = 467

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
8 Sisters of Avelorn = 112
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 562

Army Total = 2399

Lastly I want to point out that I think there are at least two other approaches to combined arms that would be interesting. The first is going for a more traditional combat-oriented approach. This includes a large unit of Spears (40-ish) with movement banner to keep up with the bus and preferably a Shadow Archmage to get crucial combat buffs. The other is going for a double-smash where you basically ditch the Dragon Princes for Silver Helms to make room for a horde of Lions. This has the benefit of having way more grinding power and you can always give the BOTWD to the BSB (Lions +1M banner is still very good) to preserve most of the unit's survivability.

As always, C&C very welcome :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Quote:
High Elves (2400p)
Flyers 0-5 (large target counts as 2)
Book of Hoeth counts as 2 PD and 1 DD
Banner of World Dragon counts as 1 DD


The ETC restrictions for HE have pretty much been declared and your current list is just fine to play under the comp. :)

I think your plan of dropping the DP bus for a Helmbus and taking something else hitty from the Specials has a lot of merit. Here's what I was thinking for the ETC comp:

Quote:
Lords -%25

1x Archmage (The Lore of High Magic) - Level 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
1x Prince - Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dragon Armour, Shield = 290

Heroes -%7,3

1x Noble - Barded Elven Steed, Battle Standard Bearer, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Dragon Armour, Shield, Great weapon = 176

Core -%25

10x Silver Helms - Shields, Full Command = 260 (deployed 5 wide with the Prince and the BSB)
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Bows = 85
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Bows = 85
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Bows = 85
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Bows = 85

Special -%18

27x White Lions of Chrace - Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 431 (deployed 4x7 with the AM)

Rare -%24,7

1x Frostheart Phoenix = 240
1x Frostheart Phoenix = 240
8x Sisters of Avelorn = 112 (deployed 3x3)

Total = 2399


I wonder if the High AM would work well with the WL's by providing them a solid Ward save? The lore having only 3 Augs and 1 hex with only few of them allowing LoS to cast in CC could be a problem for Warding up those Lions.

P.S.

What are you thinking of replacing the unit of 10 Lions with for 130pts? Another RBT and 5 more Sisters, a Lion Chariot or a Skycutter plus 3 more Sisters or an Eagle are all possible replacements. It's basically a question of "do I want/need more shooting or more CC/fast support". I think a Lion Chariot would be more difficult to avoid/ignore due to its speed and the damage potential is even a little bit better than 10 WL's due to impact hits auto-hitting.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:55 pm 
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I think it looks good Curu. I think you are definitely onto a powerful build.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Not much to add here. I think the sword of antiherores is marginal, otherwise both the list and proposed variants look good.

What I realized about skycutters when I faced them is how hard they can be to hunt down. Not sure if one does much, but worth trying.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:42 pm 
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@Lecai - True, but this is not my intention however. I think the ETC restriction re: flyers is beyond retarded, but that's another story which I intend to take on TWF, if I find the time. As for your ETC suggestion, the list looks very promising. I would however take more Helms in core and fewer reavers to avoid bleeding too much. Probably also add an Eagle as with such a dedicated bus, preventing that counter-charge is all the more crucial. As you can see from my last post, my first swap for the Lions is a Skycutter ;)

@Atlantic - Hopefully you are correct! I'm trying to get games in against tough opponents with strong armies, but as the ETC is approaching it's kind of hard to face the worst filth. That being said, I do expect the tournament to have a less hardcore player base than Crusade did.

@rusty - Agreed, I'm still on the fence. I am sure that the Ogre Blade, which is the option I'd take otherwise, is solid though. With the Enchanted Shield it is actually a bit hard to prevent that DP champ from going down instantly. Re: skycutter, I don't really expect it to do much apart from being hard to nail. Its only true weakness is strong shooting and most lists sporting that should be occupied with shooting either the bus or the phoenix. I see it as being a near-perfect replacement for the Lions' intended role: capable of anchoring my weaker shooters against semi-durable characters on fast mounts, counter-charging fast stuff, helping out against tough stuff. Remains to be seen in practice of course as its pure damage output is no-where close to 10 S6 attacks.

Essentially this most recent list change sees the list trying to play towards 15-5 in most matchups while going for 11-9 in poor ones. There are of course 20-0 possibilities here, most notably Ogres, Tomb Kings and Warriors of Chaos (neither of which field steadfast things or things that do not fear my ranged presence) but in general I don't have the hitting power to clear an entire army on the table: i.e. to achieve 20-0 this list needs an opponent to play into it so that magic + shooting takes its toll. I expect the armies above to do just this because they cannot win otherwise (well technically Tomb Kings can but they are so slow that if they castle up it's easy to go for the kill, hence they pretty much have to push). Armies like Empire and Dwarfs on the other hand can hang back happily and score points off my more vulnerable units. There simply isn't much to do about this. Most importantly, I think the current list plays to my strengths as a player, which counts for a lot as well. While I feel I've never mastered any army as well as the original Star Dragon list (i.e. prior to Empire, WoC & DoC coming out), this one has a lot of the same elements and I also get to utilize my 40k experience with regards to board control and target priority.

On the modelling side of things, I intend to use the Forgeworld Carmine Dragon as my Frostheart Phoenix. I need to buy another MAS base for it, but I think it'll look pretty good on a 50x100 tree-base. It's a true shame that the Star Dragon Prince is no longer viable (perhaps a shooty-avoidance version can be doable actually, if the ETC get their heads straight and fix the retarded flyer comp), I like this model so much and even though it's the Carmine Dragon accounting for 90% of this it feels a little empty without the rider. I also converted a mounted BSB today (nothing major, just kit-bashing really) and am intending to use the Warriors of Chaos BSB (kit-bashed with main components from HE prince/noble kit) as a unit filler for the Dragon Princes. I have an idea for the Ellyrian Reavers which is going ot become a bit costly but will match the feel of the army very well - stay tuned ;) Hoping to get some pictures up next week, hopefully with a game or two as well!

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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:16 am 
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Hey Curu!

A question: Do you ever feel bothered by having to re roll successful ward saves for your own guys in btb with the prince due to OtS? For example when your Dps are shot or targeted with spells, how does that work for re rolling?


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:11 am 
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Haven`t been a problem thus far. When you are hit by normal shooting you allocate yourself, so usually not a problem unless you suffer over 5 hits.

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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:41 am 
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Being the one who used said Skycutters against Rusty I can agree on the fact that they can be hard to hunt down, however I think that their shooting is less than stellar (although I will continue to use the BT for the brilliant looks) and I also never felt that I could throw them into combat with good conscience due to their fragility. Now I have only played one match with them and Ogres are scary to face in CC anyhow so they might be better against other armies, but I see them first as a harassment unit and then a counter charger of last resort.

The Lion chariot might be a better replacement for the lions if you want to do damage. The lion char. is maneuverable and relatively fast and it hits like a ton of bricks on the charge, however it is just as fragile as the cutter and can't get out of troubles as easily. I guess it would depend upon what you want it to do.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Lion Chariot is inflexible and incapable of performing a harassment role. I think I'll keep the Skycutter for now :)

I've lined up 3 games within the next week. Should be able to get a couple of hard matchups, which will be interesting. Not sure what fractions I face yet, but I know that one of them will very likely be DoC fielding lots of nurgle stuff.

To recap, the current list draft:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield = 347
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120

Special = 467

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
8 Sisters of Avelorn = 112
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 562

Army Total = 2399

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:25 am 
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Hey man, late to the game here.

The DP unit is definitely the optimal cav bus, my big fear is that while it has enormous survivability, it will really struggle to grind through big units, I think. Something like Crypt Horrors could really hold them up, even with the Prince and BSB doing their thing. Its the only real threat in your army with everything else being basically support. Its the only reason I like the Helm unit. Clearly the unit has major vulnerabilities against alot of warmachine heavy armies, but it allows a second proper fighting unit in Special.

Looking forward to the results of your games.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:32 am 
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I'm wondering if charmed shield would be better on the DP champ? Seeing as he only has 1 wound it gives him some longevity in the challenge.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:57 am 
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Hey Curu

Liking the list mate, mine will not be too dissimilar I'm thinking as I fully intend to get Prince Caradryal riding again in this edition.

Like yourself the big question I have at the moment is whether to run the costly but extremely punchy DP bus or to run a larger helm bus that only eats away at my core points. Either way I'm considering running my Archmage, Prince and BSB as part of the unit but this becomes quite risky if I choose the helm choice.

With the helms I'd be looking to run my BSB with the banner of the world dragon which makes him more fragile than I'd like in turn making my archmage more vulnerable. However this does have it's merits as it would allow a decent size unit of our elite infantry for combined charges and not relying on the frostheart etc for this job.

The other side of the coin would be a smaller dragon prince bus as like yourself It's hard to find the points for a 12-15 model bus and relying on skycutters etc for combined charges. I don't think a spear block can be justified in this kind of list and archers are just so much better for their points.

Anyway I'm intrigued as to how your list plays out

Good luck :D

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:24 pm 
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No Shield on your Prince?


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:17 pm 
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@Ptolemy - agreed. This is the main reason why I decided to go away from it as well. With 2 Frosthearts it`s probably a different story, but the comp for Invasion doesn`t allow it.

@Sackree - Good point! Will give it some thought :)

@Caradryal - indeed an option! With this setup though I believe a second noble with the star lance is pretty much mandatory.

@Stormie - likely a slight error on my part. Will double-check.

I have 2 games scheduled tomorrow. Unsure of which fractions I`ll meet. I think I`ll juggle the list around a little bit, first and foremost I think the Ogre Blade is better value than the Sword of Anti Heroes: there are really only a few deathstars that I fear (if any at all, given my wide array of options in this list) and having this item is very unlikely to make a difference as to whether I want to engage it or not. On the other hand, the Ogre Blade gives me significantly better grinding power in subsequent combat rounds and giving the champ the charmed shield or enchanted shield helps his survivability as well.

Another game scheduled for Tuesday, against DoC. We exchanged rough list formats already, here`s a sneak peak:

Lords, 570
LoC, metal, lvl 4, lesser gift, Exalted gift

Heroes, 245
Herald of Nurgle, lvl 1 Nurgle, greater locus, BSB, palanquin

Core, 600
30 Plaguebearers, FC, Swiftness banner
11 Bloodlettere, musician

Special, 715
6 Beasts
1 Beast
1 Beast
5 Furies, mark of Tzeentch
5 Flesh Hounds, ambush

Rare, 270
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon

Basically the only things that worry me are the cannons + beasts. Input appreciated, as always :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:55 pm 
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I'll be bringing tk tomorrow. My anti botwd list with dwarfs seemed a bit silly. 10 unruned warmachines would have been a bit too tailored.


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Strange wrote:
I'll be bringing tk tomorrow. My anti botwd list with dwarfs seemed a bit silly. 10 unruned warmachines would have been a bit too tailored.


True, but DW I believe have some potential given the current comp for Invasion ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:01 am 
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Minor list revision before tonight. Indeed, the Prince`s shield was missing so I had to add 3 points:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard, Shield = 290
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 770

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield = 357
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120

Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 548

Army Total = 2398

I`m still not 100% on the BSB loadout. On one hand, the Golden Crown is a very tempting offer, but it does force me to ditch either the Dragonhelm or the Potion of Foolhardiness - neither of which I`m particularly keen on doing. The Dragonhelm ensures a 1+ on the charge, which combined with the luckstone makes him rather durable. Also, it provides 2+ when wielding a GW, great when facing T3-4 troops and I need the grinding power. The Potion of Foolhardiness is just brutal for its value and I wouldn`t want to leave it at home. I see the value in the Crown, but I just don`t think it fits here.

I`m very much looking forward to trying a couple of games with this list, I think it`ll play surprisingly different to other armies while being aligned with my strengths as a player. I do have quite a lot of points invested in the dragon princes - roughly 800 on paper and over 1000 if they are killed in close combat - but ironically enough I don`t view this as the list`s strength: indeed the configuration enables the other elements to do their job, but the true strength here lies in the list`s overall ability to choose fights and dictate the course of the game. To this end, the core and rare units are key with the Archers + Reavers clearing chaff and the RBTs threatening the tough stuff. The Phoenix and Skycutter round out the list nicely with lots of mobility and devastating potential.

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:26 am 
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Where do you put your AM in this list? with the archers?

Edit: far as I am guessing your using high lore right? so the archers would not gain much from the SoS, however the AM do get protection :)

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:22 pm 
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AM goes with Archers, indeed. They benefit more from the attribute than you might think as they frequently find themselves targeted by war machines and spells, no end. It`s of course no-where near as good as getting it on a combat unit though.

I just had 2 games: one ~200 point loss vs Skaven and one ~1850 point win vs Tomb Kings. Long story short, I`m not a fan of the Skycutter nor the dart-helms. Overall, the list feels like it`s a huge compromise where every unit is lacking a little bit of punch and a little bit of survivability to make them strong enough. Right now they are just so flimsy that whether they make or break what they`re supposed to is often down to pure luck. I will consider making the individual units stronger at the cost of their versatility or perhaps change the playstyle altogether, will have to think on it an propose a few drafts first.

Expect brief reports to follow from both games. I didn`t take notes but my memory`s decent and I have pictures ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Example list re-draft, towards a more cavstar-oriented approach:

Prince on Elven Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield = 270
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Elven Steed, Crown of Command = 330
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, Potion of Foolhardiness = 170
Noble on Barded Steed with Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Halberd, Potion of Strength, Opal Amulet = 136
Characters = 906

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
18 Archers, Musician = 190
15 Archers, Musician = 160

Core = 600

11 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade = 439

Special = 468

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 140
5 Sisters of Avelorn = 70
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 450

Army Total = 2395

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:32 pm 
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With 5 unspent points, you might as well get bows on the last bunch of reavers. Or drop them on one of the others to get an extra archer (although that seems like an inefficient way to spend points)


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:38 pm 
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far better bsb set up.

are you going to give him a back-up weapon for round 2 combat?

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Jimmy - I hear you, but I'm not sure how/if TK can play effectively without any Sphinxes what-so-ever. Perhaps triple Necroknights could work, but that's an awefully large footprint! Tk suffer from partly the same problem as we do now, ironically enough, the rare stuff is so good but the 25% limits your options.


Sorry for replying so late however I disagree with this. Some of my most successful TK lists never had Warsphinx/Necrosphinx in them. Just sayin' :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:32 am 
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@Halinn - true, it`s just a rough draft though to show my intended approach.

@sparkytrypod - I might just do so ;)

@Jimmy - We might see Strange coming around to play with less sphinxes as well, after yesterday`s encounter he´s looking into ditching yet another one.

BRs being written up!

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:01 am 
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.::. Battle Report: 2400 vs Skaven (ETC) .::.

My list:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard, Shield = 290
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 770

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield = 357
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120

Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 548

Army Total = 2398

His list:
Greyseer on Bell with WS10, Skalm, 3 Tokens, scroll of shielding
BSB with stuff
Assassin with stuff
Brassorb engineer
Doomrocket engineer
Scrollcaddy
3x40 Slaves
40 Stormvermin
2 Rat Swarms
2 Rat Swarms
2 Rat Swarms
9 Gutter Runners
9 Gutter Runners
HPA
WLC

Spells: he got Skitterleap, Howling Warpgale, Death Frenzy, Scorch. Caddy got warp lightning. I got Soul Quench, Apotheosis, Walk Between Worlds, Fiery Convocation.

I knew I couldn`t engage his Stormvermin head on. They have huge amounts of combat res and are too big to wear down. Thus, I needed to try and get fiery convocation through or simply leave them be. The plan was mostly to try and fry the rest of his army. I had more drops so I ensured I had the Skycutter + Helms opposite his WLC, hopefully reaching it in T3. I also got Sisters opposite the HPA.

Image

He got first turn and everything went up. He skitterleaped his brassorbdude to my Phoenix + RBT. I let it through because if I had stopped it he would simply fire off warpgale instead so I figured I`d take my chances. He hit both the RBT + the bird and they both vanished. Boom, 300 points. Scorch then took out a bunch of Archers after I failed a miserable dispel roll and Warp Lightning dealt a couple of wounds to the Skycutter.

I followed up with sending the fast elements up, making sure to keep the helms outside of swarms` charge range. The skycutter I figured could take the charge if he got lucky, which would leave my helms free for his WLC. I suicide-charged reavers into Slaves to get rid of his scroll, which duly came out in the magic phase. The other reavers moved to redirect his HPA with the Sisters failing to deal it a single wound. The RBTs tried for the WLC but achieved nothing.

Image

He charged the skycutter but failed to reach it. HPA into Reavers, taking it away (woopa!). 3 blocks moved up hard central. Magic saw his bell ring 13 and a lucky couple of rolls later saw my skycutter die. He got off howling warpgale, I think I stopped scorched this time around. Gutter Runners arrived and started blasting RBTs, however amazing rolls on my part (saved 5 out of 6 on 6+!) saw them both survive.

Image

The flank had opened for my Helms, I just needed to pass the Rat Swarms. I needed 6+ to charge and duly failed, presenting my flank to the Slaves. The DP bus saw little choice but to charge slaves, my situation was becoming desperate. The small Archers moved to interrupt the bell. Magic saw him dispel Fiery, which left me free to Soul Quench his Gutter Runners. He blew his Scroll of Shielding but I still killed a lot, which caused them to panic. They ran through the other unit which panicked off the board. Shooting put 2W on the HPA.

Image

His bell charged, the Slaves flanked the Helms. Magic saw Warpgale go off again. Gutter Runners rallied. Engineer into RBT, Rat Swarms into the other. HPA moved like 3-4".

Image

Bus went into second Slaves unit. Archmage left Archers: I needed him to be in front arc of the Bell while keeping the Rat Swarms away from charging it. Long story short this was impossible as long as he stayed in the unit. I figured the WLC would need to pass both his 4+ LoS and his ward save.

Magic came up snake eyes however. I don`t think I managed anything significant. Shooting put another 2W on the HPA. In combat the RBT was killed by the Swarms and this panicked the Archers...

Image

So basically my opponent had 3 ways to kill the Archmage now: charge with the Swarms, shoot the WLC, magic-charge with the bell (50% for extra move on 1D6 ringing, I was 5" away after his reform + move). His Rat Swarms needed 8+ and failed. His Bell failed to roll the 50% to move and his WLC misfired and blew up.

The HPA continued its advance and this time got a big roll, however it wasn`t big enough. My bus kept chopping at his second unit of Slaves. The last had pursued off the board after the Helms so was effectively out of the game.

Image

My turn, not much to do: Sisters shot HPA but only managed 1W. Magic was big (11v6) and he prioritized dispelling Fiery Convocation on his Bell (fair game, it could`ve been disastrous indeed!) which let me boost Walk Between Worlds which quickly saw the Archmage to safety.

Slaves kept Steadfast just barely. Didn`t matter, next turn would be his which would leave me free to move in my last two turns.

Image

HPA charged Sisters. Bell + Swarms started chasing the center. I couldn`t wound the HPA in combat and all Sisters died.

In the last couple of turns, I moved the Archmage to get vision to his HPA. This opened up for a long charge from his Swarms but I opted to take the chance. A boosted Soul Quench later saw the beast die. He did indeed make the long charge, but I had a 3++ and he couldn`t kill me. With BSB + Prince nearby I didn`t fail my break test either. At the end of T6 my Archmage was down to 1W, but I had the bus intact.

Counting up the victory points, he was ahead by roughly 200 VP. A small loss to the High Elves which could easily have been a lot worse.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:40 am 
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Hey Curu,

Fighting Skaven is unpleasant, to say the least. They are the WHFB army I dislike the most.. Unfortunately I face them regularly, so I know a few tricks.

When he has the brass orb you should try to deploy your warmachines and monsters in such a way, that at least he cannot hit more than 1. Also, you should not let him hit something with a scatter on the brass orb.. And I think that you should have stopped it, as a warping gale would have hurt less than losing a phoenix and a rbt.. True, he was lucky there, but..
Against his WLC and scorch, deploying wide helps - infantry should be in 2 ranks if possible to avoid heavy casualties.
On the bell - I have found out that it is killable.. A charge of your bus with the phoenix would have meant game over for him, but for that you would have needed the phoenix alive.. With the prince and bsb aiming at the greyseer, with 8 rerollable attacks and the OTS, the seer is happily dead..

And a question on your list - don't you miss a 3rd CC unit? I have found out, that 10 SH with FC help a lot as a secondary threat


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:53 am 
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Skaven is hard, indeed. I`ve said for ages that they are the most broken army in Warhammer and that the ETC comp fails to bring them down to the same level as everyone else. Anyway, onto your comments:

- Agreed on FP placement. I probably should`ve stopped Skitterleap as well. As my opponent pointed out though, leaving the Phoenix in the open isn`t the worst idea, considering there`s only 1 true threat to it and its random strength means it`s hard to kill it outright.
- I could`ve deployed wider and reformed but wasn`t sure how this would impact my mobility.
- Phoenix + bus probably would`ve worked, as would a flank charge from the full unit (i.e. win vs Slaves, combat reform to 10-wide, hit flanks so next to no return attacks) or assaulting it after severely bringing it down with Convocation. His Greyseer is likely to challenge, preventing me from unloading upon him.
- I don`t miss more units, in fact I`d rather have fewer ;) See list suggestion below.

Had a game against DoC yesterday. Will give a brief report in time. However, here is the revised list based upon my experiences:

Prince on barded steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, dragon armour
Archmage on steed with Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury
BSB Noble on barded steed with Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, Halberd, dragon armour, shield
Noble on barded steed with Ogre Blade, Crown of Atrazar, dragon armour, shield

Archers + reavers

11 DP, FC, BOTWD, Star Lance

5 Sisters
2 RBT
Frostheart

Will post more in detail when I have the time :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:04 am 
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Hey curu

Unlucky against the ratmen, Wasn't too bad a result though as we all know what a difficult matchup they are.

The revised list is looking good, that bus is mega fighty! Do you not feel that a second combat unit is necessary? The extra noble should go someway toward protecting your archmage though.

I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of your deamons game. I'm intrigued to see how they deal with the BOTWD.

On a side note, swing by my new thread when you get time, I'd really like to hear your opinions on the list ideas I have drawn up and see which one you prefer. There's a link to it in my sig.

Caradryal

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:01 am 
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I wouldn’t say I was unlucky – all the punishment my Archmage was facing could’ve easily meant his death which would’ve given me a way worse result. While my left flank didn’t accomplish anything the WLC still did next to nothing and misfired in the end, netting me vps. I was also very lucky with neutralizing the Gutter Runners so quickly. Overall I’d say luck was fairly even spread, we had our moments on both sides without a doubt :)

The bus is actually deceivingly un-fighty. It looks like it can fight most things but the reality is that it struggles a lot with grinding. Once the charge is over with, the damage output is quite mediocre. Considering its price it’s downright bad. As for a second combat unit, I don’t think it’s needed. The list is meant to play in several phases of the game and although I have a lot of points locked in the bus now, the list is not designed to play all-out (in which case I’d bring even more characters and less shooting).

Before the Daemons game there is a TK game to report. I’m hoping to have both of them done before this week is over ;)

I have lots of threads I have read but haven’t had the time to properly comment on yet. I’ll make sure to check it out as soon as I have the time!

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I wouldn’t say I was unlucky – all the punishment my Archmage was facing could’ve easily meant his death which would’ve given me a way worse result. While my left flank didn’t accomplish anything the WLC still did next to nothing and misfired in the end, netting me vps. I was also very lucky with neutralizing the Gutter Runners so quickly. Overall I’d say luck was fairly even spread, we had our moments on both sides without a doubt :)

Indeed you did :D The WLC had it's most juicy target effectively neutralised by the BOTWD and as for the misfires..... well that's just Skaven artillery for you :lol:
Curu Olannon wrote:
The bus is actually deceivingly un-fighty. It looks like it can fight most things but the reality is that it struggles a lot with grinding. Once the charge is over with, the damage output is quite mediocre. Considering its price it’s downright bad. As for a second combat unit, I don’t think it’s needed. The list is meant to play in several phases of the game and although I have a lot of points locked in the bus now, the list is not designed to play all-out (in which case I’d bring even more characters and less shooting).

This raises concerns for list 1 of my 2 at it's a cav star approach that is less fighty than yours. The last thing I'd want to see is an avoidance list that danced around it all game or seeing it get bogged down in a large tarpit unit.
Curu Olannon wrote:
I have lots of threads I have read but haven’t had the time to properly comment on yet. I’ll make sure to check it out as soon as I have the time!

Indeed! were spoilt at the moment for reading material :)

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