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 Post subject: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Location: Looking for a lost Asur expedition somewhere in the Old World
Hello everyone,

I decided to start a new thread as my personal plog to get opinions and tips on how I go about modelling and painting. One of the reasons is that my journey will be a bit more difficult than normal because my army basically did not come to me from the store, but from a former warhammer player who must have done unspeakable things with it, because they came in one big box of bent and broken models. Those that were not bent or broken were very poorly glued and painted with so thick colour that all details were gone from the models. The only good thing was the price. For an army worth more than 3500 pts he wanted about 60 EUR. Good huh? Well not if you count in the workhours that I have spent and will need to spend to get them fighting, but I just could not have left my Asur brothers suffering like that.

I say brothers, because I myself had a small force of High Elves from days long gone when I was an active player (5th or 6th edition). And thus seeing the ignominy of the guy's army practically got me back into the hobby.

This is just a small example of the state of the army I bought:
Image Image
As you can see, the dragon is almost gone. The body is cracked on several places. I will have to do extensive sculpting and modelling to fill in missing pieces and holes. As for painting - I do not know what colours this guy used, but believe me, it was not acrylics. It only came off after extensive bath in DOT3 braking fluid and brushing. It looked to me as if the guy wanted to humiliate his army as much as possible. I just had to save them!. :-)

In the future postings I would like to document the whole journey. From the preparation, techniques I use for basing, gluing all the way up to painting and finishing an army. I hope that this will be of some interest to at least some of you.

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"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


Last edited by aurynn on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:27 pm 
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You can incorporate your brave rescue of the army into your background. Maybe the army was led into battle by a foolish Caledorian and met with complete disaster, having to flee. The remnants could have been found by another force, led by an elf from the kingdom you like and he could have rekindled the flame in the survivors, leading them to success and victory, thus regaining their honor?

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Luna, try not to beat them too hard. They are proud about their pseudo-glorious past and their present nothingness, you know.
-Elmoth, about Caledorians


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:02 pm 
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@Luna Guardian: I am already working on this. Even the colour scheme will be different from traditional elven force. I imagine them being a lost expedition that has been found by their current commander. My old army has Eltharion and Teclis, but I will just create new characters and fluff according to this. :-)

Oh and I know what! - I will repair the dragon and make the fluff that it was wounded by something or someone and healed by the elves! Although, I am not good at sculpting so I might have to improvise as to his missing parts... Perhaps some kind of magical prosthesis, etc... Natural things are very difficult to sculpt. Unnatural can be constructed more easily. The head I have, but the whole arm, leg claw and wings are missing... He will be like Darth Vader of the Warhammer world... :-D But it could look AWESOME! I am going to do it.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


Last edited by aurynn on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:09 pm 
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PREPARATION OF BASES

Well here I am with the first update on my progress. I decided to put models on bases first before cleanup and priming. The bases will be magnetized and I will be gluing the models without using the slots. So first step:

Filling of the slots
Most of my bases are slottabases and I needed to fill the slots to have a full-flat base and I did not have the bars from most of the models. I am using a combination of cut toothpick and two-parts resin. Easy steps:
  1. Mix resin (put in a little bit more of the hardener to have the result durable)
  2. Cut a toothpick (or the bar from the miniature if you have them) and push it into the slot from the bottom.
  3. Make a small roll that exceeds dimensions of the slot in the base, put it over the slot and roll it over with another toothpick to push it in the slot. Its best to have the base standing on the table so the tootpick piece does not go elsewhere.
  4. Push the toothpick piece further into the slot (and into the resin) from the bottom with your fingernail or some tool. Some of the resin should bulge out of the base.
  5. Carefully cut the overflowing resin.
  6. Let cure overnight.

Here is the gallery of the process:
Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
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"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:10 pm 
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REMOVING PAINT

I know that a lot of people have trouble removing paint and most of the guides on the internet are rather vague. So here is what I did.

As there is very limited access to Super Green and similar recommended cleaners in my country, I first tried Dettol. Did not work at all and was bloody expensive. I do not reccomend this method.

WARNING: The below mentioned method should not be attempted with FINECAST models! They get destroyed within few minutes of submersion. Irreversibly! They get soft like rubber and you can throw them away. I have to say that finecast is the worst thing that happened to miniatures EVER! Terrible material and someone should be flogged thoroughly for even considering its use...

Next I went for the braking fluid. The important thing is its designation. Only DOT3 will work. No DOT4 or other. Second important thing - it is a carcinogen - wear rubber gloves. I bought 3 litres canister for about 12 EUR. I have simply put the models in a plastic (tupperware or similar) container and poured the braking fluid until everything was submerged. I have put a lid on it as the fluid smells.

I have then put it away for a day or two. I recommend letting it rest for 48 hours. It does not hurt the models if you keep models in it for weeks (with the exception of Finecast as mentioned above). Some metal models can show grey/black discoloration which is easily covered by primer. After the "bath" take out models one by one and brush them with a toothbrush (the harder the better) or other plastic brush under flowing water. Some brushes can be destroyed by the liquid so just use another brand or type. Brass and steel brushes can be used on metal models. Use steel ones with caution.

Any acrylic paint should be peeling off very nicely, save for deep recesses. It may take a second bath with fresh fluid.

Watch out for models with cavities. Like horses, monsters, ogres and similar. A lot of fluid will get into the model and it will take time before it gets out if the model is glued together. And you do not want that happen on your shelf or in your miniature box... :-) I highly recommend dismantling the models before paint removal.

Mind the environment. I recommend doing all this somewhere where they can dispose of hazardous chemicals. I did it at friend's garage.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


Last edited by aurynn on Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Well I really like what you are trying to do =D> ! Good luck first of all, and have patience (you'll need it :D )!
It would be nice of you to take a picture of a mini in a very bad state, before and after the paint removal and maybe again, when it will be painted and finished!
Cant wait for an update!


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:56 pm 
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What parts is your dragon missing? I have a set of spares from that dragon that would probably cover what you need.


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:58 pm 
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aurynn wrote:
REMOVING PAINT

I know that a lot of people have trouble removing paint and most of the guides on the internet are rather vague. So here is what I did.

As there is very limited access to Super Green and similar recommended cleaners in my country, I first tried Dettol. Did not work at all and was bloody expensive. I do not reccomend this method.

Next I went for the braking fluid. The important thing is its designation. Only DOT3 will work. No DOT4 or other. Second important thing - it is a carcinogen - wear rubber gloves. I bought 3 litres canister for about 12 EUR. I have simply put the models in a plastic (tupperware or similar) container and poured the braking fluid until everything was submerged. I have put a lid on it as the fluid smells.

I have then put it away for a day or two. I recommend letting it rest for 48 hours. It does not hurt the models if you keep models in it for weeks (not tested with finecast). Some metal models can show grey/black discoloration which is easily covered by primer. After the "bath" take out models one by one and brush them with a toothbrush (the harder the better) or other plastic brush under flowing water. Some brushes can be destroyed by the liquid so just use another brand or type. Brass and steel brushes can be used on metal models. Use steel ones with caution.

Any acrylic paint should be peeling off very nicely, save for deep recesses. It may take a second bath with fresh fluid.

Watch out for models with cavities. Like horses, monsters, ogres and similar. A lot of fluid will get into the model and it will take time before it gets out if the model is glued together. And you do not want that happen on your shelf or in your miniature box... :-) I highly recommend dismantling the models before paint removal.

Mind the environment. I recommend doing all this somewhere where they can dispose of hazardous chemicals. I did it at friend's garage.


Acetone works wonders for metals (but never ever plastics as well). But I often use the brake fluid on plastics.


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:20 am 
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Acetone does wonders to remove paint from plastic models... but also melts plastic completely :D Pile of goo!

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:25 am 
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Silver wrote:
Acetone does wonders to remove paint from plastic models... but also melts plastic completely :D Pile of goo!


Well, that much is true. Green stuff as well. More then once I've discovered metal models with plastic or greenstuff conversion bits after putting them in a jar a of acetone.


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:37 am 
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Yea, I know that acetone works well, but as I usually mix plastic and metal models and glue a lot of models with greenstuff-like resin, it is better for me to have one universal medium and that is the brake fluid. :-)

However its good to mention that it works well with metals, its also bit more accessible than brake fluid. Thanks.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:48 am 
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Ehetleos wrote:
Well I really like what you are trying to do =D> ! Good luck first of all, and have patience (you'll need it :D )!
It would be nice of you to take a picture of a mini in a very bad state, before and after the paint removal and maybe again, when it will be painted and finished!
Cant wait for an update!


Thank you. I am pretty excited about it.
As for the pictures. I will update the paint removal post later with some pictures. I have very few models with the paint still on and almost none painted yet, but I will give you some examples. Will notify the update in the thread.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:02 am 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
What parts is your dragon missing? I have a set of spares from that dragon that would probably cover what you need.
Shannar, Sealord



Hey, thanks for the offer! I am missing left leg claw, half of left arm, wings, part of tail and saddle. However as I live in Czech Republic, there is a good chance that transport costs would be probably higher than buying a new dragon. :-D You know what? I would like to try and find if I can make the "prosthesis" thing work first. It is just too great opportunity to try some heavy conversion. But if I am unable to do it, I will drop you a line if you do not mind.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


Last edited by aurynn on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:32 am 
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Oh man. A couple weeks ago I sent a package over there, I'm sure something could have been arranged.

Wings I can't help with sadly, the rest I'm pretty sure I could.


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:17 am 
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MAGNETIZING THE BASES

I decided that my bases will be magnetized. Mainly because I have bent and broken models before due to a trayful of them sliding off a hill on the unpainted (and very smooth) citadel gaming board but also for transport and also painting (will explain in painting post). If you do the job well, you practically do not need any padding (provided you do not shake your figure case for some reason).

There are two methods - magnetizing the whole base bottom with a magnetic foil or using a disc magnet. Both methods have their pros and cons. For me, the main advantage of the foil is that you can use another magnetized foil on the trays, but the force is not strong enough for transport IMHO. The disc magnets are stronger, have larger variety of application, but you cannot use magnetized foil for trays as it will destroy the neodymium (disc) magnets. You have to use metal sheets for trays which are harder to work with (cutting to size without bending edges, if you bend them you will never make them quite flat again, etc.). There is also another advantage to the discs - they come in very small sizes and can be fitted in the hand and the arm of e.g. a standard bearer to have easily detachable standard. For transport. Or put into a saddle and rider's butt to keep him in the saddle without glue (will post when I get to that phase). You just remove him for transport so his spear does not pierce the lid of your case.

For base magnetizing I have used the 4mm diameter, 2mm high neodymium disc magnets. They have a keeping force of 420g, which is good enough for what we need and will keep full metal monsters for transport if you put more magnets in the base. Now, onto the magnetizing:

  1. Mix a two-parts resin and use exactly 50% hardener. More hardener can cause the magnet to rip off the base with the resin and less hardener to rip the magnet out of the resin. Do not underestimate the power of the magnetic force! :-)
  2. Take a small blob (about 2,5 times more than a magnet volume). put it as centrally as you can on the base. And place a magnet on top of it.
  3. Use small flat (preferably wooden) piece to push the magnet down, but no further than the edges of the base. You need to have the magnet as close to the surface you will be magnetizing to, to have the keeping force strong enough.
  4. Some of the resin will be pushed to the sides of the magnet. Use a toothpick or similar tool (recommend wood over metal) to roll and push the resin to a conical formation. Make sure to put the resin to as much contact with the magnet and base as possible without covering the top of the magnet.
  5. Let cure overnight.

For infantry 20mm and 25mm bases use 1 magnet for both metal and plastic models.
For cavalry I usually go with 2 magnets, however because the bonds between the model and the base are thin compared to the infantry and two magnets with keeping force of 0,8 kg would be too much I think, I push them just a little bit deeper. 0,5mm is more than enough to lessen their pull.
For plastic monsters 2-3 magnets are enough. I currently have metal Eltharion's griffon and have 3 magnets there and it seems to be holding very good.
And yes, the last picture was taken with the metal box with miniatures upside down! :-) I am telling you, they are holding. :-)

Image Image Image Image Image Image

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


Last edited by aurynn on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:21 am 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Oh man. A couple weeks ago I sent a package over there, I'm sure something could have been arranged.

Wings I can't help with sadly, the rest I'm pretty sure I could.
Shannar, Sealord



Thats life. :-) Well the wings is what bothers me most, but I might get them off e-bay or our local sources. Thanks anyway will drop you a line if I run into the wall with the rest.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:16 am 
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Brave project overall! Good luck! I m sure you ll make something good out of it! Like always the journey counts the most! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:04 am 
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Tzineris wrote:
Brave project overall! Good luck! I m sure you ll make something good out of it! Like always the journey counts the most! :mrgreen:


Thanks. Well I hope that they will repay my efforts on the battlefield too. :-) Although I am mightily undecided what army style I am going to play. All "premium" lists on this forum are great, but I would like to make something out of the box or at least different enough. I will leave that decision to next month until the new Army Book arrives. ;-). Meanwhile I will get my forces to fighting state.

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:48 pm 
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GLUING TO BASE

Hey again. Next step for me is the gluing of the miniatures to the base. I do not use a superglue or any other "normal" glue. I use a two-parts resin. As for almost everything. :-) My reasons are several. It does create a very strong bond to the base, yet it is dismountable without destroying the miniature like it often happens with superglue and it creates very good opportunity to sculpt the actual bond. And the most valuable thing of all for me - even if your miniature's soles are tilted, even if it stands a little uneven, even if it has small surface contact or not entirely flat contact surface (hehe - words) or even if the legs of your horses are not equally long, the resin compensates for it all. It also lifts your models up from the base and creates a distance that will be useful later for the basing I will use.

  1. As with every gluing - make sure that the bonding area is dry, free of any fat or oil or paint. You have to be on the rough material of the mini itself. I recommend using a file and roughen the contact areas.
  2. Mix a 50-50 resin-hardener. Put a small amount on the contact area of the model.
  3. Push the mini to the base, so the resin is pushed out of the contact surface like a dough. Well balanced models will stand on their own from now on until curing, but if the models are not balanced, you might need to support it somehow and/or letting the resin mix cure to just a little bit harder state that can hold the mini (15-30 mins).
  4. Leave it to cure for a bit. You will know the right time by poking the overflowing resin with a tool. If it is already starting to harden - that means you leave only small marks in it with poking, use a cutter or scalpel to cut the overflowing resin off. The cutter should NOT be too sharp! Sharp tool can damage the boots or feet or whatever your model has. It should not cut you if you press your finger against the blade, but you should definitely feel that with enough pressure it will cut you.
  5. Let it cure overnight

    The results are shown below. Note the sculpting of the bond on the horses "in mid-jump". The two rear hoofs are not strong enough bond to hold magnetised bases so I added a stone and sculpted the mini-bond between the stone and hoof, cloth, etc. Some of the shown will be later filed to almost nothingness or to put them outside the viewing angle or in a deep shade and painted with the same colour as stone.

Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

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My personal PLOG
Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
Quote:
"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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 Post subject: Re: Aurynn's PLOG
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Oh my... I just realized that in the photos above I prematurely hinted on the colour scheme I will be using... :-) Although you will have to wait for the rest.

Meanwhile, I would ask you on opinions: in repairing the Dragon, would it be too un-warhammer-y or un-high-elf-y to sculpt the missing parts in purely mechanical steampunk-style? Including the wings, perhaps? ;-) My fluff that I will post later will allow for it. I want to do something very unorthodox, but I do not want to overdo it.

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Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
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"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Hey again,

I have just stumbled upon a thing that I want to share with you. As you know, I have a lot of models that are badly glued and with loads of glue residue. I have been trying to find an easy way to remove the glue without damaging plastic models for weeks, but have been unable to find anything reliable. Debonders did not work, acetone damages plastic, other chemical cleaners and stuff did not work either, etc. But when I was reading something about glues and how they actually work, I realized that they have a lot of moisture locked inside even when they dry rock solid. Remembering some physics and finding some threads about freezing the glue, I expanded on this method and I am quite happy with the results. So here we go:

EDIT: Warning! Too hot water damages the bases and can slightly bend some thin parts of the models. Recommend using hot, but not boiling water on based models (60°C). Did not see any warping on any of my plastic or metal models though (do not have any finecast though).

  1. Ready a bowl that can hold hot water and withstand freezing temperatures. Put your models that you need to unglue or clean in it.
  2. Pour hot water (cca. 60°C) to cover all the models and let sit for cca. 5 minutes until as much heat as possible is accumulated into the models and the glue.
  3. Get a strainer and remove the water from the models. No need to dry the models, just remove enough so it does not form pools when you put the models back into the bowl. The water remnants on and in the models will be useful.
  4. Quickly, before the models cool down, put the models in the freezer. Do not worry, the plastic has so low heat accumulation that it won't damage your freezer. Leave it there for several hours (2-3 is enough).
  5. Ready another pot/kettle of hot water.
  6. Quickly take out the bowl with models from the freezer and pour the water (again cca. 60°C) all over the models. You should hear cracking.
  7. Let it accumulate heat again. Try taking out one model and test the glue. If it is coming off in chunks easily, you are done, if it is not, do it again.

This method takes advantage of residue moisture in the glue and the moisture that gets in and under the glue while soaking. Ice expands, while other materials shrink in freezing temperatures and vice versa. Heating the minis as much as possible, freezing them and heating them quickly again creates stress that helps getting the glue's bonds to the mini destroyed or loose.

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Lost Asur Expedition - army blog
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"Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage."
- X-files, ep. Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Faulkner


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