John Rainbow's Adventures - Short Tournament Report

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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#181 Post by John Rainbow »

About to go play a game, going to try this...

Archmage(4)+Dusk Jewel, Ironcurse
Seer Mage(2)+Gem Courage
Mage(1)+Ring Corin
Mage(1)+Crystal

24 Archers +MS, Banner Discipline
14 Archers +M
14 Archers +M

26 WLs + Coms, BoS, Am.Light
14 SMs+coms, Gleaming Pennant
14 SMs+coms

2 x Eagle
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#182 Post by Lecai »

Take a Dispel Scroll instead of the Annulian and pick the Dragonhorn with the points if you're adamant on going with the BSB-less light council.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#183 Post by Curu Olannon »

Interesting list, considering just about everyone runs a BSB. If you do go without however I`d second the suggestion of the Dragonhorn.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#184 Post by John Rainbow »

The questions about taking the Dragon Horn are interesting ones for a number of reasons...

I really like having the extra arcane slot that the lvl1 mage provides as it can increase the efficacy of the coven massively. This has meant that I have tried to mitigate against not having a BSB by taking items that allow rerolls of Ld checks or help out in a similar manner. I'm not entirely convinced that the Dragon Horn is worth it as it is single use (so you need to pick the correct turn) and does not help with break tests if the brown stuff hits the fan. This talk has however, given me pause to think about whether the extra magic item is worth it in the coven when viewed in the light of all the extra points I am spending on items to cover the loss of the BSB.

I'll have to have some further thought about this but I think the BSB might make a comeback for a couple of reasons - the obvious re-rolls (especially if it works out cheaper relative to taking the Gem of Courage, etc) and adding a bit of combat punch to the Coven bunker for the odd situation when there is simply so much chaff that something gets into contact with the bunker. More than likely this latter situation will be down to my poor play :oops:

I also have some brief reports from the weekend's action but BatReps will be brief - neither game I played got much past T3. Tune in to find out why...
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#185 Post by Curu Olannon »

Looking forward to the reports :)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#186 Post by John Rainbow »

Something that I posted on Wamphyri's blog and was interested in some thoughts on:
John Rainbow wrote:This thinking has also lead me onto something else - the idea of matchups and in some way 'gaming' the system at a tournament. I remember listening to a 40k 5th edition tournament report where the winner was a Tau list. Tau at the time were (and somewhat still are) universally regarded as a fairly useless army. At the time of the tournament though over 50% of players were Grey Knights (my conscience is clear here - I've been BA all the way :D ) and he created a list for the sole purpose of beating Grey Knights as he reasoned correctly that most of his games would be against them. This won the Tau player the tournament.

I was wondering if we could make the same assumptions about Adepticon. For instance, at all the last tournaments I have been to, I have played Ogres more than once (two or three times at each event!) as well as playing Empire and Warriors. Could we take this for granted as the lists that will be in preponderance at Adepticon and therefore be the most likely match-ups? In which case, we could design a list to beat those lists and win the tournament by predicting the meta?
(Posted again here in case you don't follow Wamphyri's blog)

Do you think this is a reasonable possibility or is predicting the meta/matchups too difficult?
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#187 Post by pk-ng »

Yes i think there is merit.

In the overall meta LM & OK are one of the better armies in WHFB. But here in my local meta they are not used by the better players so I can slightly tailor my list to other more threatening armies in my local meta.

I'm not sure if Dale was exagerrating about the 50% of GK but if there is 1 army that is really really really really popular they obviously your possbility of facing that army is high. Therefor you should tailor your army for that army but it's a game of chance! It comes down to how big of the % that army will be in attendance for a particular tournament.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#188 Post by John Rainbow »

Image

Some finished Sword Master models. Basing will be done at a later date...

BatReps to follow tonight - hopefully... depending on real life and work :(
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#189 Post by John Rainbow »

2400pt Coven of Light v. Woodies
Not the fluffiest of matchups but hey-ho, who's going to complain? I haven't had a huge amount of experience with Wood Elves having only played 1 game in a tournament against a cav.heavy list that just ran away the whole time. This would be a new experience...

My list:
Archmage(4)+Dusk Jewel, Ironcurse
Seer Mage(2)+Gem Courage [Pha's,Banishment]
Mage(1)+Ring Corin
Mage(1)+Crystal

24 Archers +MS, Banner Discipline
14 Archers +M
14 Archers +M

26 WLs + Coms, BoS, Am.Light
14 SMs+coms, Gleaming Pennant
14 SMs+coms

2 x Eagle
His list was something like:
Treeman Ancient
lvl.3 Spellsinger[Life] + scroll

Eagle Noble + 3++
Eagle Noble + 3++
Mounted BSB
Branchwraith + 1 extra DD/phase

10 Dryads
9 Glade Riders
10 Glade Guard
10 Glade Guard

2 x Treeman
Deployment:
Image
I was reasonably happy with deployment having scoped out his moves with my eagles and the central unit of archers. I correctly predicted where his remaining units would go and deployed to counter with my strongest combat units (the WLS and SMs) towards the center of the board but still in magical support range of the coven. My plan was to bombard his units at range and mop up any survivors.

Spells:
lvl4. Banishment, Timewarp, Shems, Phas
lvl1. Light of Battle
lvl1. Shems

Spellsinger: Regen, Throne, Flesh to Stone

I won the roll off for 1st turn and we moved onto the game proper...
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#190 Post by John Rainbow »

So there is a bit of an issue in that I am missing a few images from this game. This BatRep will therefore be a bit briefer that some of my previous ones although I will attempt to fill in as many details as possible.

High Elf T1
Image
The HE forces moved up across the board in order to generate a bit of breathing space for the Coven and in order to meet my new objective of playing with an 'aggressive defense'. Magic was 12v6. It had been 7v4 after the roll for the winds but the power of the Coven boosted me to 12 whilst my opponent channeled a die and generated one with his Branchwraith. I opened up with a 4d Banishment (scoring 16) on his nearest eagle mounted character. This was dispelled with 4d. A second cast of the same spell on 4d (scoring 15) went off and killed the character. I then failed a 4d attempt at boosted Shems on the Treeman on the left.

High Elf T2
The Wood Elf turn passed without much happening except for the loss of 3 of my archers. The photo below follows my movement phase:
Image
I think I made an error here in being too aggressive with the WL when staying back would've given me another turn of magical bombardment but we'll see how this move affected the game shortly...

... Magic was 8v6 and was a damp squib after the first cast of Banishment was scrolled and then my Archmage failed to cast Banishment on 3d (needing a 10) after I rolled 1,1,2.

High Elf T3
The Wood Elf turn saw my opponent move up his treeman and ancient into an aggressive position in front of my WLs and SMs. There was little magical offense from my opponent other than an attempt at Flesh to Stone on his ancient (which I dispelled) but a successful casting of Tree Singing killed off three WLs.

The image below shows the state of play at the end of my turn:
Image
You will note that I had charged (and then fled) both the Ancient and Treeman with the WLs and SMs as I thought I would be able to kill the ancient at the very least (even without magical support). I would have 13 WL attacks which would result in 11/12 hits and therefore roughly 4/5 wounds as I had magical attacks. I was then relying on the SM to cause a single wound to kill the treeman. I expected that I could pull this off, especially with the magical support of the Coven.

Obviously the intended did not happen after I failed an attempt at Banishment on the remaining treemen (again needing 10 on 3d with my Archmage and rolling 1,1,2). I was intending to relieve some of the pressure on my lines by doing this and also draw my opponent's DD out before attempting to help my units in CC. Evidently this failure did not go over well for me. I then managed to wiff most of my attacks in CC and the rest as they say, was history as the treemen stomped all over my elites. This caused the WLs to run whilst the SMs held (barely) and the results is as you see above.

On the left flank my other unit of SMs did win some glory however and destroyed the Dryads in CC. The Branchwraith then fled and got away from my pursuing Elves. You can also see my archers on the other flank wreaking havoc with the Wood Elf cavalry. A small bonus given the rest of the turn's events.

Wood Elf T3
Image
In the Woody T3, charges were duly declared on my fleeing WLs and they were caught and destroyed in short order. This also brought the trees and remaining eagle hero closer to my bunker. Magic was again ineffective for my opponent.

High Elf T4
At this point I knew I was in trouble. This wasn't helped by my Archmage again failing to cast Banishment on 3d when needing a 10 to cast. To cap it off the Seermage then failed to cast Banishment (needing a 10) on 4d. Just great. In the past I've found that when I have around a third of my points spent in magic, the games tend to go better when I have a magic phase to speak of... lol :wink:

In the end we actually called the game there as the pizza had arrived and the other were done with their games too - we were going to switch opponents after game 1. I think I could've maybe played out a draw if my magic phase recovered in T5 enough for me to kill some characters/treemen, all of which were wounded by this point.

Summary
Evidently I had some poor magic phases but in reality what really cost me was being overly aggressive with my WLs and SMs in the center of the board. The Wood Elf army I faced was very non-shooty and needed to come to me. Therefore, I should have hung back and given myself some more options for using my magical abilities.

I guess the end result is that I have been shamed! A loss to the Woodies is yet another permanent stain on my already highly blemished record! :lol:
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#191 Post by John Rainbow »

Having read some of the new Chaos book, a couple of things spring to mind instantly:

1. Chaos seems to have gotten even more choppy! Especially in the characters section.

2. Warshrines are no longer silly and no longer as good (no more 3++ Chosen! yay!). Having to spend power dice on getting EotG rolls will probably mean you don't see too many of these any more - although the EotG effects are now permanent from the warshrine so that is an advantage. I like the new 'Eye' table. It seems a lot more sensible anyway.

2. Nurgle lore on a Daemon Prince with fly and Soul Feeder has the potential to be devastating! Gaining +1T/W on a character like this that can then regen. wounds is pretty awful/amazing depending upon your perspective. I imagine Daemon Princes are going to be the new 'Tzeentch Sorceror on Disc' that you see in every Chaos list as they can be super nasty. Being -1 to hit and WS9 (was it) means that this guys is going to be tough to kill in CC.

3. Speaking of Tzeentch on a disc and being tought to kill... I'm surprised there is still room for abuse with the Mark of Tzeentch and 3++ saves. Which can now reroll 1's. Thanks GW! Somewhat luckily the Lore of Tzeentch sucks so this isn't going to be a Sorceror flying around and Gateway'ing you into oblivion. Instead you get the pleasure of meeting a choppy hero who is all but unkillable. I can't even fathom how many spearmen attacks it would take to put this guy down - note that it takes 130 (129.6 to be exact) normal spearman attacks to put down a single Mournfang. Now think about how many it would take to down this guy. Lolz.

4. Lore of Tzeentch sucks, Nurgle FTW!

One thing that might change my opinion of all this is that I haven't seen the points costs of this stuff yet. I imagine a tooled out Daemon Prince will be expensive as all get out and some of the other stuff could be better/worse just based on pure points cost. More to come when I actually get to see the whole book.

I also have one big question based on what I've seen so far...

... Is the Daemon Prince a Daemon? This question also applies to the Hellcannon I guess. This seems to be an oversight on the part of GW as both are very clearly daemonic but don't have the special rule that specifically says they are. As such, stuff that affects daemons in some way might get screwed over by this. I am of course thinking of things like the Lore of Light attribute. I can see why they don't have the daemon special rule as they don't want these units to have instability but they are clearly intended to be daemons! Do you have any thoughts on this?

Maybe this will get FAQ'd.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#192 Post by Curu Olannon »

I`ll comment in-depth on the report later tonight. For now, I`m busy converting up some skullcrushers, err... demigryphs, err... Phoenix Guard monster-riders :D

Anyways, just having a little break and thought I`d share my 2 cents on Chaos:
- the book is indeed extremely powerful with lots of choices. Nurgle in particular is nasty
- However, the really solid choices have some extremely hard counters, so I believe we`ll see a meta where the local trend depends whether rock (chaos), paper (dwarfs) or scissors (spam-armies, e.g. Skaven) prevail. I also note that some of the amazing WoC stuff counters the current imbalanced build very nicely - in particular I believe OK and Skaven will have a hard time with lots of chaos lists.

As for points, indeed tooling stuff up gets expensive. With that being said, some upgrades are retardedly cheap: for example the Chimera regen option, which is the same cost as a single Swordmaster...
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#193 Post by Curu Olannon »

Deployment: perfect, nothing to add here.

T1: solid moves. Magic 12v6, a tricky situation. The option of 4+4+4 is a good one, I reckon. An alternative is 3 (banishment) 4 (banishment) 2 (phas) 3 (timewarp Lions), but his lack of shooting (relatively) mean`s that pha`s probably isn`t worth it. I`d say you played this one optimally.

T2: I think the Lion placement is perfect. They`re in a terrific position from where they can dominate the entire map. Magic is 8v6. In this case, he will usually dispel one spell and scroll the other. Either accept this, and go for 4v4, or try and work around it, with 3+3+2. Both are viable options. With your commanding position and his Eagle noble dead, I think I´d opt for the first, since this would likely yield a tremendous T3 magic phase. Anyhow, going with 3+3+2 is really tough when lady luck is against you and you fail the first 3D6 cast. Not much to do here, to be honest.

T3: This is where I get confused. Why are you charging in against the Treemen? Granted, the Lions have a big advantage, but the Swords going in is just suicidal: S4 stand and shoot, T6, stubborn, thunderstomp... However, the big issue here is that by engaging you effectively protect him against Banishment. This is rarely what you want to achieve, especially since the scroll is still intact. Given this position, I would`ve been happy to stay my ground and draw out his scroll. With the combat initiated as you said, drawing the scroll is key. Here, there is no option going for even slightly risky spells. I`d cast Banishment and Timewarp with 4D6, Pha`s with 2D6 and Light of Battle on 4D6. Of course, missing on 3D6 is unlucky, but it`s the same chance as failing a 2+ armour save and we all know how often that can happen. By comparison, missing with 4D6 is like failing a 2+ re-rollable...

With your Lions running the game is his to win, especially with your abysmal luck. The dice could`ve easily won you the game despite this incident, but it wasn`t to be.

I think that what we can take away from this game is how quin-essential it is to get that scroll out early and cast spells with a very high reliability to force him to make some tough choices. Usually when I play, I take less risks the better my position is. E.g. if a Dragonlord is 19" away I`ll usually reposition instead of charging. The more pressured I am, the more the risk goes up: I might try 20" charges, throw spells with ~70% chance of success etc. For the Coven, the early turns are usually very safe. I therefore think it`s key to keep the magic phases simple: consult the cheat sheet -> form a plan with all spells having >90% chance of success -> draw the scroll -> re-evaluate. With 2x Banishment, 2x Pha`s and Timewarp available, there are always multiple high-priority dispels for your opponent. If he`s closing in, Timewarping the Lions` will hurt him hard. If he shoots you, Pha´s is a real killer (and a steal at its cast value for the boosted version!) etc. Usually though, going 2x 4D6 on banishment is a safe bet.

I also think this game illustrates why I believe having a +1 to cast item could easily be worth it on an Archmage. I`m not sure that it would affect anything here, but it just means that it`s that little bit easier to get things off, and get the high values. He`s your main caster and you want him punishing the enemy every single turn. Adding +1 to his casting attempts can be tremendous here.

Lastly, want to re-emphasize that I loved your deployment and movement in this game. Except for charging the Treemen, I think you played this part of the game perfectly. Perhaps you feel uncomfortable moving so aggressively, but it gives you so many options and buys your coven space and time to what it pleases :)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#194 Post by John Rainbow »

Curu Olannon wrote:Lastly, want to re-emphasize that I loved your deployment and movement in this game. Except for charging the Treemen, I think you played this part of the game perfectly. Perhaps you feel uncomfortable moving so aggressively, but it gives you so many options and buys your coven space and time to what it pleases :)
Thanks Curu. I was reasonably happy with my play too up until that charge! I actually thought I would kill the treeman ancient with the WLs and SMs combined - I had magical attacks on the WL. In the end I was 1W short and it turned out to be a bad idea. I also forgot that treemen are unbreakable and in the end I suffered for my mistake. I think I've improved in my deployment and movement but I got too greedy/aggressive here and it cost me. Another round of Banishments would've helped me out massively!
Curu Olannon wrote:I also think this game illustrates why I believe having a +1 to cast item could easily be worth it on an Archmage
I've been considering this and in the end I went for the Jewel of the Dusk. At the time I was thinking that an extra dice would be more worthwhile in that it creates an imbalance in the magic phase and helps me get more spells through. Another bonus is that it's much cheaper than getting a +1 to cast on the AM. Maybe I'll switch some things around and see how it turns out as I know you feel very strongly about it. I remember you were very vocal about the +1 to cast in Brewmasters blog too!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#195 Post by John Rainbow »

2400pt Coven v. Lizardmen
This was the second game that I played on the same day as being defeated by the Wood Elves. I was running the same list, my opponent was taking...
Shadow Slann + Loremaster, 2++ v. ranged, BSB, Cupped Hands, Becalming Cogitation
2 x Choppy Saurus on Cold One

40 Suarus + sword/shield
20 Suarus + sword/shield
40(?) Kroxigor/Skink Block

Ancient Stegadon
2 x Salamder Pack

3 Terradons
2 x 6 Chameleon Skinks
Again my camera was blighted by the same curse of forgetfulness (or maybe it was me...) so the following and only photo shows the state of play after the first turn:
Image
As you can see I have been a little less aggressive this time around having only really moved my eagle on the right flank to redirect the Krox block and my SMs up to flank charge them if they make this move. I have lost a couple of WLs to a lucky Pit of Shades and my archers have been miasma’d (a -1 across the board effect).

Having effectively blocked out the Krox on my flank, I made moves against the main bulk of the enemy force in my first/second turn. The more observant amongst you will see that the Saurus army is sans Stegadon in the photo after it was blasted from existence with a decent Banishment. In my first turn I was also lucky enough to get a Net of Amyntok off on the Slann - I had a good magic phase. Hoorah! That made a change to the previous!

In actuality the Slann was going to prove a problem for me. He had a 2++ against ranged attacks which seemed to include magic missiles unfortunately! At only Str.3 though, Net would do a good job of containing his powers and it did so in the ensuing turns - actually causing 4 wounds in the process and causing my opponent to move him out of becalming range. Becalming range is also ‘short’ range for Banishment.

In my T3 I was able to get a unit of SMs and WLs into contact with the big Saurus block and cast a boosted Pha’s on them both. I then got Timewarp off on the Lions and proceeded to obliterate the big Saurus block. That was game more or less as the Slann was cowering in the backfield with a single wound remaining and my combat blocks were more or less intact, His combat blocks obviously weren’t as fortunate in their numbers.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#196 Post by Ptolemy »

Why in the hell did he shove the slaans unit forward. Im looking at that picture and just dying to charge those SMs at him.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - New BatRep 2/6/13

#197 Post by John Rainbow »

I'm playing a game v. Warriors of Chaos tonight which could be interesting - it'll be my first chance to see the new book in action. I think we're playing via Universal Battle. On Friday I'll be playing some proper table-hammer again though, not sure of my opponent just yet.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ptolemy wrote:Why in the hell did he shove the slaans unit forward. Im looking at that picture and just dying to charge those SMs at him.
You mean the big unit of Saurus? The Slann was floating around the back by himself. My opponent was running Shadow with his Slann and if he got any spells off I would've had a very hard time of it in CC. I think it was the right move as with my list you can't afford to sit back. An opponent needs to move up and put pressure on the Coven.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#198 Post by wamphyri101 »

John Rainbow wrote:Image

Some finished Sword Master models. Basing will be done at a later date...

BatReps to follow tonight - hopefully... depending on real life and work :(

Liking the colours. How did you paint them?
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#199 Post by Curu Olannon »

Looking forward to the Warriors-game :)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#200 Post by John Rainbow »

2400pt Coven v. Warriors of Chaos
Played via Universal Battle against a friend of mine, this would be the first time I played the new Warriors. I was pretty excited by this but I knew it would be hard after seeing my opponent's list!

I had...
Archmage(4)+Dusk Jewel, Ironcurse
Seer Mage(2)+Gem Courage [Pha's,Banishment]
Mage(1)+Ring Corin
Mage(1)+Crystal

24 Archers +MS, Banner Discipline
14 Archers +M
14 Archers +M

26 WLs + Coms, BoS, Am.Light
14 SMs+coms, Gleaming Pennant
14 SMs+coms
2 x Eagle
My opponent had (roughly):
Daemon Prince(3)[Metal]+Mk.Tzeentch,3rd Eye, Soul Feeder, Enchanted Shield, Chaos Armour, Scaly Skin (therefore 1+AS), item/gift that gives extra spell
Mage(2)[Shadow]+scroll
BSB

25 Nurgle Warriors + halberd, command, Flaming Banner
2 x 5 Warhounds

2 x Chimera + regen
2 x 3 Skullcrushers + command
Deployment
Image
I was fairly pleased with deployment as my opponent went first and I guessed fairly well where he would place his units - fliers in cover behind the building/forest.

Rolling for spells:
lvl4: Banishment, Timewarp, Speed of Light, Light of Battle
lvl2: Banishment, Phas
lvl1: Phas
lvl1: Shems

Daemon Prince: Transmutation lead, final transmutation, glittering robes, enchanted blades
lvl2: miasma, mindrazor

WoC T1
My opponent won the roll off and elected to go first - surprisingly he didn't fancy taking a couple of rounds of Banishment!
Image
The Chimera's moved up aggressively but the Daemon Prince hid behind the building to avoid being a potential Banishment target. Elsewhere there was also forward momentum.

Magic came up 8v7 and my opponent initially said he wouldn't cast anything. As he was a friend I told him this was a silly idea and talked him through his phase. He thought he couldn't cast anything but I directed him to the FAQ and the fact that augments/hexes were FAQ'd to not actually need line of sight. He therefore went for Enchanted Blades on one of the Chimera rolling a 17 on 3 dice. I used 5d to dispel it. Again my opponent said he would end his phase but I told him there was still stuff he could cast. He therefore went for Final Transmutation on my WLs which I was powerless to stop. In all the confusion surrounding the phase I hadn't really considered this but hey ho. I took it on the chin as 6 WLs were turned to gold.

HE T1
My opponent had been far too agressive with his chimeras and I intended to make him pay for it with the SMs who were 11" or so away on the left and into the flank of the beat. MathHammer predicted that I should deal between 4 and 5W on the beast so I thought it a good decision. All I had to do was pass my stupidity checks for my units...

.. and predictably the SMs failed. Even worse they then ambled a full 6" forward into easy charge range of the Daemon Prince. Oh **** didn't quite cut it as I thought I had the game before this roll. I would (hopefully) kill the Chimera and then overrun into the second. As it was I was in trouble as I probably wouldn't kill either this phase. To add insult to injury the archers then failed stupidity too - both units rolled an 11 then a 12 on two dice! They are marked in the diagram with a purple star.

In an effort to salvage something I moved up my eagles to block the Crushers and prepared for some magic. The dice came up 10v7 after the banner and channels and I set to it with a 3d Banishment from the level 4 with a 13 total. This was then dispelled using 4d as was my second cast on 3d using the lvl2. My final attempt at a boosted Pha's was successful (on 3d) but my opponent scrolled the attempt.

All shooting, for a total 8W, was saved by the scaly hide/regenerative abilities of the Chimera I was targeting.

WoC T2
Predictably it was full steam ahead for the Warriors! The Chimeras charged the archers and WLs who decided to stand and shoot and hold - I would have fled off the board otherwise. No wounds were dealt by the shooting. The Daemon Prince declared on the SMs who fled. The Prince then needed a 9" to catch them and promptly rolled boxcars. MY feeble-minded Sword Masters were punished for their previous love of gold! Both eagles were charged by hounds, the one eagle electing to flee and hopefully choke up the midfield somewhat and allow me some time to deal with the chimeras. The Skullcrusher unit failed a charge on the WLs as they rolled triple 1's.

Magic came up 6v6 but sensing the imminent danger, the Archmage dispelled all attempts at casting by the Daemon Prince.

In combat, the plucky archers put 2W on the Chimera and held firm as it dispatched 7 of their number. They then reformed. The WLs were not so lucky, they managed zero wounds and took 5 themselves before failing their test to reform to face the beast. In the eagle v. hounds combat, 2 hounds were lost for a single wound on the eagle and the result was a drawn combat.
Image

HE 2
Image
There was little movement with only the SMs and archers moving into somewhat supporting positions. The SMs moved up to help the WLs if possible whilst the archers turned to face the Daemon Prince. The winds of magic blew stringly (5 and 5) and the result was a 12v6 phase.

I opened up with a boosted phas on 4d which my opponent let through. He feared Banishment on his Daemon Prince and I intended to use this to my advantage! I followed up Phas with a boosted Timewarp on 6d, this just met the casting value with a 24 and that was that for the phase. My remaining 2d against his 6 amounted to nothing.

There were no wounds caused by shooting and in the ensuing combat the eagle beat the hounds and then pursued them into the Skullcrushers - catching the hounds and wiping them out in the process. In this case I reasoned it was better to pursue into the crushers rather than being charged myself and having the juggernauts overrun into me. The WL v. Chimera combat ended up being tied after I did 2W to his 3W and I reformed slightly - I knew a charge from the Crushers was imminent! This time around the archers couldn't wound the Chimera but suffered 4 losses in return. I passed the morale check.

WoC T3
Image
The crushers charged the WLs and the Daemon Prince moved to threaten the mages. Elsewhere the warriors moved up and the hounds blocked the SMs.

Magic was 6v6 and again the Elven magical prowess halted the Chaos mages as they attempted a 2pd v 2dd cast of Miasma. A 4d cast of enchanted blades on the Crushers went off (on 15) though as the Archmage failed to dispel using 4d of my own (getting a 14 total).

In combat the archers (somehow!!???!) beat the Chimera and killed it good and dead. Unfortunately the WLs managed, in a fine display of ineptitude, to finish off none of their opponents and were promptly destroyed in return. The Skullcrushers overran into the mage bunker and that was that. Game to the Warriors.

So, it's late and I'll pen my real thoughts on this result and my failings tomorrow. For now, you lot can go nuts with it and know that I think my main failing was in deployment; and yes I potentially was the architect of my own downfall by helping my opponent with his T1 magic!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And some answers to comments prior to the BatRep
wamphyri101 wrote:Liking the colours. How did you paint them?
A basic description is that I usually block out all the colours and then wash them. Take the armour for example, I paint it chainmail then wash black, this is followed by a chainmail highlight then a mithril silver highlight. This is similar for all the other colours i.e. for the blue I use a darker blue first, wash purple, then paint over the same dark blue then an enchanted blue highlight. The gems are all red gore followed by blood red then blazing orange. At some point they will be glazed to give them some shine.

I can go into more detail if you can be more specific about what you'd like to know. I am also working on a step-by-step archer paint job for theLordCal which will be up soon (this weekend maybe?).
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#201 Post by John Rainbow »

On the way to work, just realized I forgot I had the Gleaming Pennant... :evil:
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#202 Post by Curu Olannon »

Deployment: I'm not a fan of having the Eagles in front like that. You will never need their entire range, so you're better off parking them further behind, giving you clear LoS and charge-arcs. The extreme end Swordmasters are also deployed a little too far behind, would rather have a line so that you can advance and wrap around. Re-deploying isn't much of an issue, usually a reform is enough, and as such you don't need to park them behind the rest of your units.

The rest is fine, but I don't see a reason for having the Mages in a unit: with no ranged attacks save for breath weapons they're better off alone, in my opinion.

T1: dispelling enchanted blades is, in my opinion, completely useless. There is close to nothing he can do with it, so just let it go. This allows you to dispel Transmutation.

WL's should reform to face the chimera with their centre. Either that, or the Archers and Eagle can move so that a flank charge is impossible (easy to do), and thus the charge itself is impossible.

Your spell-casting strategy was risky, but that's ok given the poor standing. You could also have considered Shem's here on 2D6 on the Chimera to start the phase (it's a pity the Lvl 1 had it). With him being able to dispel 2 and scroll the third, it's just an unlucky phase, really. You can also consider going 6+2+2 D6 here, which will probably see him either scroll the first spell, in which case you can just discard the dice, or let it through with whatever effect it has. A boosted Timewarp would bring you back into the game for example.

T2: I love the magic phase. Eagle overrunning though is a terrible decision in my opinion. As the Skullcrushers are frenzied, you can reform to send them wherever you want. By charging in, you let him reform (since you'll die) and move wherever he pleases.

T3: Not much to say here.

I think your main mistake was letting his Chimera charge your Lions in the flank. There were lots of ways to avoid this. However, a more pressing concern is how crucial not having re-rolls proved to be in this game. Your opponent didn't even play LD-bomb stuff, and still it pretty much crippled your chances. I would seriously consider investing in a BSB.

Without knowing how close the rolls were, I'd like to point out yet again how powerful the Book of Ashur can be on the Archmage. I believe it would've changed at least a couple of spells in this game, which can truly be crucial. While Jewel is nice, you often end up wasting it because all the channels etc give you 12PD anyways, or you simply don't need it to work an effective magic casting strategy.

Example character setup I think would be nice to try out:

Archmage Book of Ashur, Guardian Phoenix
Mage lvl 2 Seerstaff
Mage lvl 1 Annulian Crystal
BSB RGoH GW DA Ironcurse
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#203 Post by John Rainbow »

Curu Olannon wrote:Deployment: I'm not a fan of having the Eagles in front like that. You will never need their entire range, so you're better off parking them further behind, giving you clear LoS and charge-arcs. The extreme end Swordmasters are also deployed a little too far behind, would rather have a line so that you can advance and wrap around. Re-deploying isn't much of an issue, usually a reform is enough, and as such you don't need to park them behind the rest of your units.
Yeah the SMs on the right were too far away to play a major role. I dropped these early and then realised they were too far back as I went forward with my drops. I don't think
Curu Olannon wrote:T1: dispelling enchanted blades is, in my opinion, completely useless. There is close to nothing he can do with it, so just let it go. This allows you to dispel Transmutation.
This T1 magic phase was a complete and utter mess. I was trying to help my opponent out (as we both have several tournaments coming up) and ended up screwing myself in the process. He had no idea what he could cast and it meant the phase was very disjointed and confusing. I agree I should've stopped Final Transmutation but it wasn't easy to tell what was going on at all. Should the moral of this story be that I shouldn't help people in the future? :twisted:
Curu Olannon wrote:As the Skullcrushers are frenzied, you can reform to send them wherever you want. By charging in, you let him reform (since you'll die) and move wherever he pleases.
Having not played against these guys before I wasn't aware of this and my opponent neglected to tell me about it either...
Curu Olannon wrote:Example character setup I think would be nice to try out:

Archmage Book of Ashur, Guardian Phoenix
Mage lvl 2 Seerstaff
Mage lvl 1 Annulian Crystal
BSB RGoH GW DA Ironcurse
I'll try and write a list with this setup in mind. Watch this space!

My thoughts:


1. Deployment went a bit awry in this case. I sort of knew where my opponent was going but ended up being directly across the board from him and thus too close to his fliers. The way I see it I have 4 drops which are more or less chaff/pre-determined in position and should give me an idea of where my opponent is going to place his units. Expanding on this, I have 2 eagles to deploy and then two units (archers and SMs) that I typically deploy centrally before deciding upon which flank to take. I should have spotted where my opponent would try to place and countered without ending up directly opposite him as I had enough drops to see where he would go.

2. As Curu mentioned, not reforming my units in the face of his Chimera assault cost me my WL unit. Obviously I realised this later on when I failed the combat reform that would have saved me. Still, it should have been done sooner.

2. Forgetting the gleaming pennant cost me a lot (potentially the game) as I would have, statistically speaking, killed the Chimera had I completed the fairly easy charge into its flank. The distance was about 11".

--------------------------------------------------------------

Also this:
Is the new WoC Daemon Prince a Daemon? Rules debate
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#204 Post by Curu Olannon »

Good summary. I think the mistakes were pretty clear in this game. As for the rules debate, I've voiced my 2 cents there. I seriously think it's silly that people even try and claim that the DP isn't a Daemon. I mean, come on: when there is no Daemon rule used to determine what is a Daemon and what's not, one has to use reason. By RAW logic, no unit in the entire game is a Daemon.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#205 Post by John Rainbow »

An attempt at a new list with a BSB, I've also tried to incorporate the Book of Ashur as per Curu's suggestions::

Archmage(4)+Book Ashur, Ironcurse
Seermage
Mage(1)+Annulian
BSB+RGoH, DA, GW

24 Archers + MS, BoEF
14 Archers +M
14 Archers +M

20 WLs +CMS, BoS, Am.Light
14 SMs + CMS, Gleaming Pennant
14 SMs + CMS

2 x Eagle

The issue I am having is that the WL are now only 20 strong. Do you think this will be an issue? Should I drop SMs - how many?
Last edited by John Rainbow on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#206 Post by Curu Olannon »

Perhaps, but I can easily see that dropping some SM might be better ;)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#207 Post by Coomitock »

Logically
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#208 Post by John Rainbow »

Just finished up a game v. Brets. I'll post a BatRep tomorrow. I did change my list to include a BSB in the end...
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#209 Post by Curu Olannon »

Looking forward to the brep ;)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures

#210 Post by John Rainbow »

2400 Coven of Light v. Bretonnians
Some changes were in order before this game. Having found out the hard way that that riding dirty without a BSB can be very costly, I got rid of the lvl.1 mage with the Ring of Corin and replaced him with a BSB toting the Radiant Gem. To find the extra points for this I lost a couple of the 'reroll LD' type items I had in my list prior to the change i.e. Gem of Courage, Standard Discipline, etc and also dropped a couple of WLs.

Curu has been suggesting the Book of Ashur recently and I was going to try it before I saw how many elites it would cost me to get the item into the list - I need to shed around 4 of my precious combat boys in order to get the item and I'm not sure I can afford to strip down my units further. I'm also not convinced by his argument that I will usually end up with 12 PD before the Jewel is used and that therefore the Book of Ashur is better. Running the math I should generate 7 PD on average. I then get 1 from the Jewel and 2 from the BoS. If I channel (I have 4 attempts) I will then end up with 11 dice total in most phases v. maybe 5 opposing DD. Dispelling at +6 with the Book is pretty cool but I don't think the +1 to cast is as valuable as having an extra dice and therefore the ability to potentially cast an extra spell. There is also the issue of losing the elites to do this. If anyone has any smart ideas or other thoughts on this let me know.

The HE Coven list:
Archmage(4)+Dusk Jewel, Ironcurse
Seermage[Phas, Banishment]
Mage(1)+Annulian
BSB+RGoH, GW,HA

24 Archers +MS, Flaming
14 Archers +M
14 Archers +M

24 WLs +CMS, BoS,Am.Light
14 SMs +CMS, Gleaming Pennant
14 SMs +CMS

2 x Great Eagle
The opposing list:
Lord + 1++ AS, Sirennes Locket, Str.6
BSB + 1++
lvl4(Heavens) +Silver Mirror
lvl2(Heavens) +Scroll

2 x 10 Archers
7 Knights of the Realm +CMS
8 Knights of the Realm +CMS
9 Knights of the Realm +CMS
3 Pegasus Knights

8 Grail Knights +CMS

2 x Trebuchet
Deployment
Image
Image
Image
Deployment went fairly well for me here. I had castled up nicely in the corner and the mages had a good view of the battlefield. My elites were also well positioned to cover my Coven. The big threat in the first turns would obviously be the trebuchets which I assumed would be used to punish my elite infantry before the charge.

The trebuchets are represented by the cards and the Pegasus Knights are represented by 3 normal Knights of the Realm.

Rolling for spells:
Archmage(4) - Banishment, Phas, Speed of Light, Timewarp
Mage(1) - Shems
BSB(1) - Light of Battle

lvl4 Lady - Chain Lightning, Comet, Convergence, Curse
lvl2 Lady - Iceshard Blizzard, Thunderbolt

HE T1
Image
The Bretonnians prayed to the lady for victory and the HE took the first turn. Would the prayers of the Knights be answered? Not if the Coven had anything to do with it! The right flank of the HE moved up cautiously whilst staying out of range of the Bret Archers.

The winds came up 12v6 after the PD generating power of the Coven came into effect. I wanted to get rid of my opponent’s trebuchets as they could do some serious damage to my elites and soften them up at range. The first cast of Banishment on 4d was dispelled by my opponent using all 6 of his dice. A second cast of Banishment (4d) on the trebuchet was successful however and the warmachine collapsed under the bombardment. We forgot to do any panic checks resulting from this (which probably wouldn’t have mattered). My opponent had ummed and arhhed anbout whether to scroll this spell but in the end decided to hold his scroll for later. The final 3d were used to cast a boosted Phas which protected almost all of my forces.

Brets T1
Image
As expected the Bretonnians moved up into a better position for charging in later turns.

The winds blew a 7 (4 and 3) which resulted in an even phase 6v6 after I stole a die with the Annulian Crystal. Given the parity in the phase, the additional +1 to dispel innate to High Elves proved to be the difference and no spells went off (unsuccessful Comet attempt on 6d).

In the shooting phase the peasants manning the remaining trebuchet somehow managed to peer through the mists of Pha’s Protection and lobbed a rock towards the WLs. Fortunately it scattered 4” away and missed the elite Elven warriors.

HE 2
Image
The High Elf lines realign to face the coming threat of the Bretonnian forces to their left. The eagle also took a step back to avoid the Brets getting off any long range charges on it and gaining decent field position.

Again the winds came up 12v6 and I wanted to take out the Knights of the Realm on the my right flank (in the photo you can see them running away towards the board edge in the top corner of the table - a hint at what happened!) in order to prevent them flanking my forces and hitting my vulnerable Coven. I started off with a 5d Banishment(25) on this unit to either force my opponent to use a scroll or all of his DD. In the end he let the spell go and 3 Knights were killed. The unit turned tail and ran, resulting in the picture above. A boosted Pha’s on 3d(16) again went off before my opponent used his dice to stop my attempt at Banishment on the next closest Knight unit.

Brets T2
Image
The Knights moved up cautiously, waiting for some magical bonuses before committing to a charge - distances were roughly 15” to each of the big units from my elites so it wasn’t really on for me next turn but would be for my opponent. The fleeing Knights rallied and again moved towards the flank of my forces.

Magic ended up giving my opponent 9PD while I got 6DD. He started off with a boosted Comet on 6d and promptly rolled boxcars. The miscast cost him his dice and a wound on the lvl.2 and we moved on to shooting...

Ahh! Comet! (the white die is the marker)
Image

Again the trebuchet crew passed the 4+ required to lob a rock but misfired. In return for the good luck earlier in the phase, the crew rolled a ‘1’ and the treb blew up with an almighty ‘SPROING!’. Balance was restored to the turn.

HE T3
Image
The HE forces scattered to try and avoid the impending comet - there was no stopping the heavenly rock from landing now! The eagle on the left flank moved out to redirect the knights and stop them charging the HE lines.

Luckily, the comet refused to come down this turn. The winds came up 6v3 though and I went for a defensive phase. Both a 3d(16) cast of Timewarp on the WLs (the spell I really wanted!) and a 3d(15) cast of Banishment were successful after my opponent rolled poorly attempting to dispel banishment. 4 Knights of the Realm went down under the magical bombardment.

Nothing however went down under the bombardment from the archers and across the board the soft ‘plink, plink’ of arrows bouncing off armour was commonly heard.

Brets T3
Image
The first charge of the game! The KoTR (and characters) declared on the eagle who knew his duty as speedbump and duly held. The other KoTR unit moved in to block my elites.

Somehow, the comet was still making progress along its astral course and had not yet reached the table (my opponent was getting more and more annoyed by this which was pretty funny!) and I muttered my thanks to the dice gods under my breath - a comet at this stage would have proven deadly for me.

A 7v7 phase was the result of the magic roll and I dispelled the first 6d attempt at another comet using all of my 7 dice. This left the Brets free to cast Harmonic Convergence on the Grail Knights.

In the shooting phase, 1 SM dropped to the floor, pierced by a Bretonnian bodkin.

Still no comet, which now has 6 markers on it!!!
Image

He T4
Again this pic shows the state of play at the end of the turn.
Image
The WLs and SMs charged the blocking Knights - my opponent was going to flee but I advised him this was a silly idea as it would allow my ‘timewarped’ WLs (I imagined them doing the dance) to redirect into either his Grail Knights or his character bunker. My opponent decided that holding with these knights would be a better decision so I moved my left-most archer unit up to block his character bunker while my remaining eagle moved towards that side of the field.

Again my opponent failed to draw down the comet! Much frustration followed (on his part obviously) before I rolled 12v6 for magic. To see he wasn’t best pleased with this pahse is probably an understatement. A 4d(17) Banishment on the Grail Knights was dispelled and I followed this with a 2d(7) Pha’s on my WLs. I then went for another 2d(14) Pha’s on my SMs (behind the archers) which was dispelled by my opponent with all of his dice. A final IF Banishment resulted in a wound to all of my mages and a single dead Grail Knight - not a great trade off.

In combat the WLs and SMs crushed the KoTR and reformed (result shown in the pic above).

Brets T4
Image
The Brets were getting restless and duly called a charge on my blocking archers. I chose to stand and shoot and again the ‘plink, plink’ of arrows bouncing off armour rattled around the battle. No knights were felled. The Pegasus Knights moved up to block the WLs and on the dar side of the board, the depleted unit of KoTR continued their journey towards my flank.

The comet again proved stubborn and refused to reach the table top. It was super-strength and super hitty at the point and any unit it hit would most likely be wiped out - there were so many counters on it! The winds came up 4v4 and my opponent used them all on a boosted Harmonic Convergence. He scored 21 to my 20 and the Bretonnian forces started feeling all harmonious.

As one would imagine, the archers imploded in CC against the character bus.

Super comet!
Image

HE T5
Image
(again image shows end of turn state of play)
My WLs declared on the Peg. Knights who had to hold. The eagle moved to block the Knights and my archers on the right flank reformed 5-wide to face the coming KoTR with more ranks.

The comet chose this turn to finally show up. What would be the result... the 2d6 range came up as 5” and my units were all more than 8’ away so I got away with it this time. I think my opponent could have cried by this point. A good comet even just a turn earlier could’ve decimated my densely packed troops.

I rolled 9v5 for magic and my first attempt at a 3d Banishment was dispelled with the Silver Mirror. All of my mages were wounded by a prior miscast and I had elected to use the Seermage this time, luckily a ‘to wound’ roll of ‘1’ for the Str.6 hit from the mirror meant the Seermage lived to fight another day. The second 3d cast of Banishment was then dispelled with all 5DD but I managed both a 1d Pha’s on the SMs and archers - the units in danger of being charged. I then attempted to Speed of Light my archers but failed this on. Can’t have em all I guess :)

Again there were no wounds from shooting.

Brets T5
Image
Charges were again declared as the Grail Knights and a couple of characters could just about make it to the SM unit (the ones I Pha’s’d before). I forgot about the only one character can charge out rule at this point. The Knights on the right also charged my ranked up archers protecting my Coven. The Knight unit (former character bunker) then charged the eagle and I again forgot that you can’t do this.

Magic was 7v6 and my opponent needed some assistance here. I dispelled a 3d cast of Iceshard Blizzard on the SMs with 2d of my own but failed a 4PD v 4DD attempt at stopping Harmonic Convergence on the Grail Knights.

In combat we started on the right and 3 archers died to the Knightly charge. They held on steadfast though. In the potential game changer on the other flank the SMs managed a single wound on the Lord (they actually managed 3 but he survived thanks to Sirenne’s locket - only take 1W max. per phase). The SMs failed to damage anyone else after some decent armour saves from the Brets. In return 7 SMs were cut down and I needed snake eyes to hold. I rolled a 1 and 2 and thought the game was up...

Then I remember the Gleaming Pennant! Could it happen...

The dice seemed to tumble forever before finally... doubles 1’s! Neither of us could believe it as the SMs held against all odds. At this point my opponent conceded as he thought the game was up - my WLs were positioned to join the combat and I was holding steady on the other flank to protect the Coven. Victory to the High Elves!

Note that we did play out the scenario ‘what would happen if the SMs broke’ as should have happened in all likelihood. They ran and were cut down by the characters whilst the Grail Knights ended up off the board. A combination of magic/shooting then put down both of his characters that had overrun and again it seemed that the game was mine.

Result
Victory the High Elves!

My thoughts to come later...
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