John Rainbow's Adventures - Short Tournament Report

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#91 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi John,

Apologies for replying so late. I often like to read the reports without rushing myself and enough time is not always the luxury I have. But I still want to make comments on them :) I know it takes a lot of effort to write one and that it is a little frustrating when you finish it and not many people write even a single sentence.

But believe me, even if they don't post their comments they do read them. So don't give up and keep posting the reports among other things and your blog will be alive for long :)

Ok, the comments :)

1. Deployment - I know you had a lot of chances to win first turn but I still think some deployment drops could be re-considered. In particular small and fragile units like Eagles and Swordmasters. Putting them further away could put them away from skins and avoid being shot. Another way to do is to deploy them behind regiments. In the moving phase you would expand the formation anyway but give additional penalties to hit for skinks.

2. What was the target of Dwellers in turn 1?

3. What were the distances for BSB and Dragon to reach targets turn 1? It looks to me as long charges in both cases.

4. How wide were the lions and TG? It looks to me on the diagram that you could easily avoid right salamander. If the initial position of the regiments was right on the diagram (I mean the diagram represents as they were in the game) then you could simply move WL forward and once touched close the door. In that situation your lions would be shifted to the left rather than to the right. It might mean that your charge could drag second salamander on the left into combat but that does not have to be especially when you keep 1" between the units (and the diagram shows they are properly separated). Also, why did you charge TG at all?

5. I understand it was beneficial to thin down one Saurus regiment but since you didn't really attempt to attack them and finish them (LSG could move to better position) then maybe it was better to shot skins? Despite their -2 to hit they are T2 only and much smaller unit, easier to get rid off.

6. I think you commit your eagles too early. I don't think there was a reason to re-direct Stegadon and then you abandoned that plan anyway. It is good to keep your eagles in the back line, hidden from shooters, to be able to use them when they are really needed.

7. You seemed to be operating your units alone. While even such powerful regiments as Lions or characters as Dragon lord do better when co-operating. In the end it was victory which is great and well deserved as you really played better than your opponent (who played with units individually too :)). However, if you played with your units together not individually you might have kill the TG before they managed to destroy the Lions.

Cheers!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#92 Post by John Rainbow »

So I have been unbelievably busy recently (curse of the PhD student) and have finally gotten around to considering these comments. I have to say, they are really helpful so thanks Swordmaster!
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:1. Deployment - I know you had a lot of chances to win first turn but I still think some deployment drops could be re-considered. In particular small and fragile units like Eagles and Swordmasters. Putting them further away could put them away from skins and avoid being shot. Another way to do is to deploy them behind regiments. In the moving phase you would expand the formation anyway but give additional penalties to hit for skinks.
The reason I did this here is that I was confident of having the +2 for the first turn (deploy first and Skeinsliver) and placing my eagle out wide prevents the skinks from deploying closer to my units (as they have to stay out of 12"). I intended to move the eagle in the first turn - which I was unlucky not to get with the +2. In the case of the SMs I see your point.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:2. What was the target of Dwellers in turn 1?
I believe it was the WLs. I really need this unit intact if I am to do well with this list so judged the use of the scroll to be justified.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:3. What were the distances for BSB and Dragon to reach targets turn 1? It looks to me as long charges in both cases.
This might just be the drawings I have and the fact that my pictures aren't always amazing. I usually don't go for charges much off the probable result (i.e. 9" on the 3d6 choose 2 highest + movement) which would be 19" for these guys. They were most likely within this range. I have a habit of failing easy charges with the Dragon too. In the game after this one (not reported yet) I failed when I needed 6" on the 3d!
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:4. How wide were the lions and TG? It looks to me on the diagram that you could easily avoid right salamander. If the initial position of the regiments was right on the diagram (I mean the diagram represents as they were in the game) then you could simply move WL forward and once touched close the door
Again this is the picture, in the game I could not charge just the TG. I had to charge one of the Sally's too. Your point is still valid though as I charged the wrong one. I went for the multiple combat/overrun approach and should have taken the TG and left hand Sally with the WL, leaving the right hand sally to the BSB. He would've killed it and overrun into the flank of the TG. The way I did it ended up keeping the BSB out of CC in the end after the Sally was killed. This was poor judgement on my part. Thanks for pointing this out.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:5. I understand it was beneficial to thin down one Saurus regiment but since you didn't really attempt to attack them and finish them (LSG could move to better position) then maybe it was better to shot skins? Despite their -2 to hit they are T2 only and much smaller unit, easier to get rid off.
Agreed, I was hoping to finish this unit off but it didn't work out and its something I should have thought of. In general I need to think about how I use the LSG more effectively in concert with the other units rather than treating them as archers (albeit less effective and more expensive!
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:6. I think you commit your eagles too early. I don't think there was a reason to re-direct Stegadon and then you abandoned that plan anyway. It is good to keep your eagles in the back line, hidden from shooters, to be able to use them when they are really needed.
Agreed although I didn't have much choice here after the Dragon failed the charge.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:7. You seemed to be operating your units alone. While even such powerful regiments as Lions or characters as Dragon lord do better when co-operating. In the end it was victory which is great and well deserved as you really played better than your opponent (who played with units individually too :)). However, if you played with your units together not individually you might have kill the TG before they managed to destroy the Lions.
Again you are correct and this is something I need to work on. It comes back to the point about using the LSG more effectively in concert with the rest of the list.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#93 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi JR!

Thanks for the replies, I am glad you found my comments helpful! These are my observations only so do not treat them as critics. It is much easier to read report and look at diagrams to spot other options than it is during the game. But it is also the reason why it is so good to post them and talk about them. So even if there is something you did during the game and then after the report there might be another option visible it does not mean it was necessary a mistake. What is more, my suggestions might not be better either. But I find it very good for future games to talk about different options so next time you have wider array of tools to use and can make your decision quicker too.

It is a good point you made about keeping chameleons further away with an eagle. Usually I remember that when deploying my troops too but it seems I forgot about it when making a comment :oops:

Using Scroll at the right moment is definitely a difficult task. That was the reason I asked about Dwellers. In this particular case (the spell that is) sometimes it is worthy considering pulling off with the unit so that the enemy has to choose boosted version of the spell to reach the target thus making it more difficult in his magic phase. Or to force him to use more dice. If you still have dispel scroll to use it means he can simply waste them or risk IF (good option here is to dispel Throne as it is usually cast with few dice and makes decision making more difficult for the opponent).

You are correct about distances. 19" is a safe one for fliers but looks like a long charge. I find swiftstride a great thing for these regiments and that is also the reason I like cavalry so much :)

Sometimes in the heat of the battle it is a difficult thing to spot all the options. It was not a mistake on its own when you charged the TG the way you did but it could have been more beneficial if you did it differently. You still won the game and that combat was not really endangered. But since the rules give you an opportunity to fight more combats in the same turn it is always good to try and have a look at these options.

LSG is not easy unit to use as one often falls into using them either as Spearelves or Archers. It is ok if they are doing that in one game if it is more beneficial to your plan. But their strength lies in versatility and the fact they can switch from one role to another quickly. Keep the enemy guessing! One of my favorite (but not yet employed often) ways of using them is to move 5" a turn while shooting and then charging them against such fragile unit as skinks to eliminate one threat and position them in a good spot to support other troops. Even big blocks cannot ignore them if they are on the flank while their ranks and banner might add nicely to CR even without any wounds caused.

You are correct about eagles and this is also one of their roles to give you a way out if something goes wrong. So although in theory it could have been done more efficiently in practice you adapt to the situation and alter you plan accordingly. Considering circumstances you did the right thing.

I find that with flying characters in general and big fliers in particular it pays off to position them in such a way that they can potentially threaten few targets at the same time. Again, you keep the enemy guessing and that can force them to make a mistake you might want to exploit. It might be even beneficial to delay the charge if you can confuse the enemy further with another good positioning. Or pick up a weak target which cannot escape, eliminate it and gain distance and momentum to get to the position you like while killing troops at the same time. Then, when you have a unit isolated, bring the heavy killers all at once. Even for big units as your Lions it is much better to fight when you can kill many enemy warriors before they hit back. You kill them quicker and can have time and bodies to mount another devastating attack.

As I said at the beginning I do not aim to criticize at all. There are imply many options in each game and I like discussing them a lot. You won against tough opponent and that is a great thing. With things learned from that battle and the ones you are aware that might be done better you will be even more efficient in the next game. Good luck! :)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#94 Post by John Rainbow »

So it's been a while since I posted last. I have not played much warhammer recently due to work commitments with my PhD. Fortunately I'm out of the busy end of summer period and onto painting for Crossroads! I hope to have a shot of my fully painted list up here before the 29th - the day of the tourny.

I have played a couple of games in the last month. I have embraced sweet victory against the lizards (again) as well as crushing defeat at the hands of a double ironblaster ogre list. The 8th Ed. Ogre book is very good in general but it also happens that it excels against the dragon list. My crossroads result could be very much influenced by how many ironblasters I face over the day! I don't fear the new Empire as much - the new stank in particular is a lot easier to deal with!

As for my list, I am taking the following:
Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian
Fenrier, Level 2 Light Mage + Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon

28 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
21 Archers + musician

25 WLs + command, Am.Light, +1 Movement Banner
7 SMs + command, Skeinsliver, Gleaming Pennant

2 x GE
I am pretty comfortable playing with this list although there are some things I am trying to work on. The main action point for me at the moment is in using these units together in concert. Too often I treat Prince Alithir as a lone unit and don't support him. I need to get better at this. I am also trying to work on how I use my LSG in game and get the most out of their versatility. In the past I have not really used them in CC and this reduces the unit to being expensive archers - with less range to boot! This also comes from SpellArcher's comments about this.

I am also thinking about the next progression from this list too - I saw this in an ETC list. The idea is to replace the SMs with chariots. For the same money I could put in two Tiranocs. I am interested in opinions on this BTW. The SMs have a single purpose, that is to provide a unit champ that can carry the skeinsliver. At a unit size of 7 models though, they don't often accomplish much. Do you think removing them and losing the guaranteed +1 for the first turn is a big deal? I am currently thinking not as clever deployment can mitigate any disadvantages this might cause i.e. cannons getting a free shot on the dragon. A potential issue is that I lose a banner for Blood & Glory but I hate that scenario anyway...

This would result in a list as follows:
Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian
Fenrier, Level 2 Light Mage + Dispel Scroll

28 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
21 Archers + musician

25 WLs + command, Am.Light, +1 Movement Banner
2 x Tiranoc Chariot

2 x GE
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#95 Post by pk-ng »

You could drop 2 WL and put SS on the Scroll Mage.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#96 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I like the inclusion of the chariots a lot - I've put them to pretty good use in the past myself in a very similar style list. Your core is almost identical to mine, and although I some times split up the archers, I've gone back to a single unit. Your specials are similar as well. The biggest difference is that instead of a Star Dragon, I've taken an Archmage and 2 RBT.

While fragile, I think alongside your dragon, the chariots become much more survivable, and their huge charge range allows them to lurk at the back behind units or what cover they can find, safely out of the range and LOS of the kind of small arms fire that would threaten them. Above all, I've found Tiranoc chariots are one of the best ways in the book of supporting just about any combat unit, from dragons to cavalry to infantry blocks, so I definitely approve of your using them.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#97 Post by John Rainbow »

pk-ng wrote:You could drop 2 WL and put SS on the Scroll Mage.
Can you persuade me why you think this would be an improvement over my current list? I guess you're suggesting the Seerstaff as a means of getting double Banishment? The chances of this happening are fairly low though. I also quite like the utility of some of the other Light spells. Net of Amyntok in particular is a real favourite of mine.
~Milliardo~ wrote:I like the inclusion of the chariots a lot - I've put them to pretty good use in the past myself in a very similar style list.
I too can see these guys as being a good inclusion and an improvement. Unfortunately for the tourny I have coming up, I have already submitted a list with SMs so am taking those. Expect to see some trial games with these guys in November! I agree with the sentiment that chariots will be better in a supporting role and are a bit more flexible in charging, movement, etc so should be able to help out my faster elements more than the SMs. I am also interested in whether they are more survivable as the SMs represent easy points for an opponent as it stands. I guess play-testing will tell me.

Also, today I am painting. I have 28 LSG, 9 Archers and 26 WLs to finish off painting (all over half done). I also have 2 Eagles to finish sculpting and painting and then a single mage to do too. I also have to complete my display board. This all has to be done within the next 2 weeks. Wish me luck!

P.S. I will post pics at the end!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#98 Post by John Rainbow »

The results of this weekend. Apologies for the crappy quality, I'm still limited by my phone camera...

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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#99 Post by Lord Anathir »

=D> Good looking troops. I think my style of painting i quite similar to your black edging.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#100 Post by John Rainbow »

Thanks. I would describe my painting style as 'cartoony'. I tend to go for bright colours with hard edges/borders. I usually do it by blocking out all the colours on a mini and then applying washes before going back and highlighting stuff. I guess I work from dark --> light most of the time rather than starting bright and going the other way. It's almost always done over a white base-coat too to add to the brightness.

I think this manner of painting has come about for two reasons:

1. You can see things pretty clearly at tabletop distances which is when it matters (for me at least as I enjoy painting but I do it to enhance the gaming side)

2. I am not (and most likely never will be) a fantastic painter, if I'm honest I think my best stuff is better than average i.e. better than the usual tournament standard but certainly not up there with the top-tier guys. This is a problem for me as I am a perfectionist with most things and tend to get pretty dispirited when I don't like the look of things. This is sometimes so extreme that I will literally throw stuff out or start from scratch again if it's not perfect. It's also why I've always hated doing portraits and painting faces - I always want it to be perfect i.e. photographic. I imagine this has something to do with why I'm an engineer - all those straight edges in drawings, etc and it being very scientific. The cartoony painting has worked for me in that it doesn't need to be perfect in the same way and I'm a lot happier with the results because of it. I guess I've just found a way of painting that suits me and my tastes. I'm happy that you liked it too.

I would also add that these Maiden Guard (my LSG) were some of the worst figures to paint. They're actually quite a bit smaller than the newer HE models and don't really lend themselves to 'ease of painting' in the way something like the new SMs do. I'm actually not all that happy with the results but with my current painting ability being what it is, I don't see them getting any better with more time so I've stopped here to get to work on my unit of WLs. Pics of these to follow later this week.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#101 Post by Keith »

John Rainbow wrote:So it's been a while since I posted last. I have not played much warhammer recently due to work commitments with my PhD. Fortunately I'm out of the busy end of summer period and onto painting for Crossroads! I hope to have a shot of my fully painted list up here before the 29th - the day of the tourny.

I have played a couple of games in the last month. I have embraced sweet victory against the lizards (again) as well as crushing defeat at the hands of a double ironblaster ogre list. The 8th Ed. Ogre book is very good in general but it also happens that it excels against the dragon list. My crossroads result could be very much influenced by how many ironblasters I face over the day! I don't fear the new Empire as much - the new stank in particular is a lot easier to deal with!
I've heard there is a ton of ogres signed up for xroads. Like, "I expected a lot, but this is insane"
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#102 Post by John Rainbow »

Keith wrote:I've heard there is a ton of ogres signed up for xroads. Like, "I expected a lot, but this is insane"
This could be an issue for my aspirations involving title contention. That and my own ability as a general...

...I'll just bring a load of beers for me and the other boys on the bottom tables then.

In all seriousness I kind of expected something like this as Ogres are a pretty powerful list at the moment. This especially true as I don't think they got comped particularly well or in a way that actually poses any limits on the power builds for Crossroads. I am pretty familiar with Ogres in general as an army though and hope to at least make out ok with clever placement and use of spells (i.e. Pha's Protection) and some luck. Maybe when I get to the third Ogre opponent of the day it might get dull/frustrating/boring. I guess we'll have to wait and see!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#103 Post by Jimmy »

Nice work on the painting! =D>
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#104 Post by pk-ng »

John Rainbow wrote:
pk-ng wrote:You could drop 2 WL and put SS on the Scroll Mage.
Can you persuade me why you think this would be an improvement over my current list? I guess you're suggesting the Seerstaff as a means of getting double Banishment? The chances of this happening are fairly low though. I also quite like the utility of some of the other Light spells. Net of Amyntok in particular is a real favourite of mine.
Just a quick fix for getting the Skeinsilver :)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#105 Post by John Rainbow »

pk-ng wrote:Just a quick fix for getting the Skeinsilver
#-o My bad, I thought you meant the Seerstaff! Too many abbreviations going on here...

This is an interesting idea. It's certainly doable but I'm not sure I like the idea of losing yet another two WLs and the scroll. My WL block has already been diluted more than I would've liked in order to fit some other stuff in and I think any more and it really starts to lose its CC effectiveness. It's my only real CC threat after the dragon and I'm loathe to reduce its numbers further.

I have to say though, it's ideas like this that make me love my blog. This is certainly something I hadn't thought of. I guess I might try this after the tournament - lists have already been submitted so it's too late to change now!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#106 Post by pk-ng »

John Rainbow wrote:
pk-ng wrote:Just a quick fix for getting the Skeinsilver
#-o My bad, I thought you meant the Seerstaff! Too many abbreviations going on here...

This is an interesting idea. It's certainly doable but I'm not sure I like the idea of losing yet another two WLs and the scroll. My WL block has already been diluted more than I would've liked in order to fit some other stuff in and I think any more and it really starts to lose its CC effectiveness. It's my only real CC threat after the dragon and I'm loathe to reduce its numbers further.

I have to say though, it's ideas like this that make me love my blog. This is certainly something I hadn't thought of. I guess I might try this after the tournament - lists have already been submitted so it's too late to change now!
You would only lose 2 WLs. as Skeinsilver & Dispel Scroll are 12.5 slaves each. You mage can easily fit both in.
As regard with your concerns I think any white lion unit above 21 models is quite a threat at least in my local meta. They can survive quite alot of onslaugt.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#107 Post by John Rainbow »

@pk-ng: I'm still not sure it's worth it (exchanging 2 WL for Skeinsliver on the mage). My problem is that I really need a second strong CC unit that can weather some abuse and I don't think losing another couple of WL is possible in the list as it stands. I would like the mages to take one of the scroll/sliver to be kept as cheap as possible too. The two mages are pretty easy to kill if an opponent can get into B2B with them or cannon-snipe, etc so I don't want to be putting more points into them at the moment. I'm currently thinking about whether the sliver is worth it at all TBH. It's 25pts for a single use item that is often not worth it as you roll poorly, etc. I think that I would get more out of having the extra WL and deploying more intelligently against opponents that can cause damage to my units at range.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#108 Post by pk-ng »

John Rainbow wrote:@pk-ng: I'm still not sure it's worth it (exchanging 2 WL for Skeinsliver on the mage). My problem is that I really need a second strong CC unit that can weather some abuse and I don't think losing another couple of WL is possible in the list as it stands. I would like the mages to take one of the scroll/sliver to be kept as cheap as possible too. The two mages are pretty easy to kill if an opponent can get into B2B with them or cannon-snipe, etc so I don't want to be putting more points into them at the moment. I'm currently thinking about whether the sliver is worth it at all TBH. It's 25pts for a single use item that is often not worth it as you roll poorly, etc. I think that I would get more out of having the extra WL and deploying more intelligently against opponents that can cause damage to my units at range.
Understable. On the flip side you have to remember you'll most likely get +2 for your "start turn" dice roll as you have a low-average drop count. You have a 33% of definitely starting first and a 66% of highly starting first (assuming your total score is 5+). I find starting first essential as it puts your oppoent at a reactionary mode and allows you to cast protective spells before your enemy can shoot at your army :).
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#109 Post by Curu Olannon »

Except it's not quite that simple: the armies against which you really want first turn (CD, OK, DW) frequently have few(er) drops. It all comes down to what a player is comfortable with :)
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#110 Post by John Rainbow »

I'm inclined to agree with Curu here as I'm not sure the 25pts is worth it for an item that has unpredictable effects. In a list that is so tight on point and which needs to be so efficient, all the points spent have to work for you.

If I make the change to two Tiranocs, I am left with 8 drops. This is still pretty decent and should work in my favour against a lot of opponents. Ogres are actually one the opponents I am more likely to get the first turn against anyway - either they have a lot of Sabretusks and therefore a similar number of drops to me or they have scouts in which case I get the +1 for deploying first anyway. I'm going to try out this change (at some point) and will report back.

In the meantime I have been painting, I still have 2 eagles and a mage left to finish sculpting and painting. I then have to finish all my bases and movement trays and paint a single paper banner before next weekend. There's a lot of work left but finishing off my 28 WLs yesterday really helped! Pics will follow soon...

I'm pretty stoked about being so close to having a fully painted army and playing in my first ever 'proper' tournament - I've done several LGS tournies but never a full 80 participant organised event.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#111 Post by Curu Olannon »

Sounds great, let us see some full-army pictures when you're ready! I remember the feeling very well from Crusade and it was really worth it when it was all painted up :)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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newbie123
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#112 Post by newbie123 »

this topic has given me some great ideas for lizards! looks like everytime the speed of that dragon worked wonders against them.

what is the name of the program used to make those battle reports?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#113 Post by Curu Olannon »

newbie123 wrote: what is the name of the program used to make those battle reports?
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=37809 :)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#114 Post by John Rainbow »

I'm glad you found something useful. As Curu said, I use Battle Chronicler to make my BatReps. It's a free program and pretty decent once you get used to it. I would recommend taking a look at the guide Curu linked to as it's a great help with starting up using it.

Unfortunately for the Lizards, they struggle against the Dragon list. They have few units that can reliably wound it, let alone kill it. The only real threats are either magical or in the form of tooled up heroes, the latter of which can be reliably killed by the Prince before they get to strike. If you go with the dragon approach, or something similar, the thing to be wary of is the first round of CC. Lizards (and other armies) typically run large blocks of troops with high static combat resolution from number of ranks. This often means that if the dragon charges in and is forced to accept a challenge, they might actually win the combat and cause the dragon to flee i.e. you charge the dragon, get challenged and kill the unit champion with the Prince doing maybe 3W. The dragon cannot then attack due to it's lower initiative. You generate 4 combat res (3W and a charge) and they might get 5 or 6 from ranks and a banner, etc.

Were you thinking of taking a Dragon list or something else? If you are considering the Star Dragon option, I would recommend checking out Curu's blog too.
Link to Curu's Blog
newbie123
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#115 Post by newbie123 »

I do love a dragon.

I have one in my list but reduced it to a sun dragon to make points for a lvl4 archmage. I figured the archmage would be the only wizard who will get a decent spell off without dispel
I noticed your choice of magic was light, i was thinking shadow. How did these two compare for you against lizards?

Have you ran a sun dragon before?

I've never used this army before so judging combat effectiveness is based on your reports.


Ive got that program now, its great! ill be having a warm up game today (high elves v beastmen) of 2,500points ill post the report in a new topic and your input will be greatly appreciated.

I think ill take lots of SM, Beasts cant really stop them without impact hits
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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#116 Post by John Rainbow »

newbie123 wrote:I have one in my list but reduced it to a sun dragon to make points for a lvl4 archmage. I figured the archmage would be the only wizard who will get a decent spell off without dispel
I noticed your choice of magic was light, i was thinking shadow. How did these two compare for you against lizards?
As you've found out the dragon is an either/or choice for a Lord choice at this points limit. If you want magic, you can't have the dragon. This is why I have two level 2's and run Light. Shadow is a great lore but doesn't fit as well with my list and really needs a high power caster to get the most out of it. Light has a load of low cost spells and importantly for my list has a few really good magic missiles (which I really need) and Pha's which can protect the dragon from cannon fire, etc.

Shadow is an awesome lore - probably the best one in the game at the moment. It really benefits High Elves too. Okkams is lethal with our high Ld and Withering is also really good as it helps reduce the disadvantage of low Str. troops. There really is something in the lore that can help with pretty much anything but like I said, you need a higher level caster to reliably get some of the other spells off (i.e. Pit, Okkams). I've used Shadow in the past and it can be really effective. you just need to be sure it's not the crux of your plan as magic can be very fickle and there are some items out there that can ruin a casters day (i.e. Hellheart, etc).
newbie123 wrote:Have you ran a sun dragon before?
I have, but only in non-competitive games. The Sun dragon isn't really an optimal choice as it really is over-costed for what you get. The lower Str, As, W and weaker breath really hurt. If you're going to do the dragon, I think you have to go the full way and spend the points on the Star Dragon which is so much more effective (but still over-costed IMHO). It can't be one-shotted by cannon and can actually put out a huge amount of damage which is what you need in such an expensive (points-wise) model.

The Dragon Mage is fun but not really a competitive choice either. If suffers from dual identities: the dragon wants to be in CC where it can escape targeting by cannons, magic, etc but both it and the mage lack any decent protection and die pretty quickly in CC. Hence you have a problem. It is a really fun unit to play with though!
newbie123 wrote:I've never used this army before so judging combat effectiveness is based on your reports.
I would caution against doing this! I really think you have to try and find your own way somewhat with your list. I tried many different approaches before settling with the dragon. The first list I ever tried out was loosely based around Seredain's cavalry prince and it didn't work for me at all. I then changed things up and ran a Shadow magic list for a while (somewhat documented at the start of this blog) and again, eventually moved away from it for several reasons; I became too magic reliant and the list didn't really function too well with my local meta. This, and some encouragement from Curu amongst others lead me to try the dragon list.

I would also point out that the dragon list can be very good against certain lists but has some really hard counters in other lists. Gunlines and especially cannons make the dragon cry so facing armies like Skaven, Dwarfs, OK and Empire can sometimes be a real challenge. I have yet to face a couple of these armies with this list so my testing and reporting is in no way conclusive evidence that this is a good list - although I hope to continue evolving the list as I play more games with it.
newbie123 wrote:Ive got that program now, its great! ill be having a warm up game today (high elves v beastmen) of 2,500points ill post the report in a new topic and your input will be greatly appreciated.

I think ill take lots of SM, Beasts cant really stop them without impact hits
Playing against Beasts is not something I am too familiar with but I'd love to see some BatReps and another blog on the site! I try and at least glance over most of the BatReps people post up and make comments. My blog has been awesome for provoking some serious discussion about lists, etc and I would encourage anyone else wanting to streamline their list to get involved with at least making a load of comments on other blogs and trying to think about things differently. This site is one of the best I have ever used for getting feedback and different opinions on stuff. Take advantage of it if you can!

P.S. I would expect the Beasts player to maybe be taking Shadow so you might get some experience against it if you don't use it this game.
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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#117 Post by John Rainbow »

Almost finished the display board. It just needs some static grass and plants put down on it...

Image
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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#118 Post by John Rainbow »

Ok. Sorry about the last one...

Better Pics:

Display Board
Image

Partial Army Shot
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Still to do (two eagles, lions and mage)
Image
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~Milliardo~
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#119 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I like it - good stuff mate. =D>
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#120 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Ye gads, that's a goodly number of Maiden Guard, do you play them as Spears or Sea Guard?
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[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
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