John Rainbow's Adventures - Short Tournament Report

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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#31 Post by John Rainbow »

I have a small (local shop) tournament this weekend and thought I'd post my list, I will also try and get up some sort of reports about how it went, etc. I probably won't be doing full BatReps as I'm not sure on the whole tourney time limit thing. I also only have the use of 1 arm at the moment which is also slowing me down (shoulder surgery a couple of weeks back).

The list:

Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, 6++, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian

36 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
12 Archers + mus

30 WLs + command, Am.Light, +1 Movement
12 SMs + command, Skeinsliver

2 x GE

I played a practice game last night against and did one of the upcoming tournament scenarios. The idea was that a core unit had to escort a 'messenger' into the opponents deployment zone and 'drop him off'. The game was against an Empire list something like this:

Luthor Huss
Ludwig Swartzhelm
Level 4 Heavens w/4++
Level 2 Heavens w/dispel
2 Warrior Priests

18(ish) Reiksguard
18(ish) IC Knights
6 Knights
6 Knights

3 Demigryphs
3 Demigryphs

Steam Tank

I deployed with a strong refused flank and put the dragon behind some impassable on my opposite flank. Thus forcing my opponent to stay towards the middle of the board where I could limit/control his movement. I aimed to crush his one flank with my WLs & SMs and then roll towards the dragon. Unsurprisingly his messenger went in a small knight unit, this meant that I had virtually zero chance to stop him being delivered. My messenger went in my LSG. Due to Skeinsliver I won the roll off but lost my mage to a miscast turn 1. Things didn't go too badly though and both of us delivered our messengers - his via horse and mine via my LSG being screened by 30 WL. An early cannon shot on the dragon limited it's use (only 3W left) but the game went in my favour at the end. I was pretty happy with the win and it was a good start before the tournament at the weekend. My apologies for not being able to do a BatRep on this one!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#32 Post by Curu Olannon »

List is looking good (well honestly, how can I say otherwise? :D), best of luck at the tournament :)

Hoping for some good results and discussions afterwards!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#33 Post by John Rainbow »

LOCAL TOURNAMENT REPORT
So I played in a tournament at the Adventurers Guild in Harrisburg, PA last weekend. It was a fun and friendly event with modest comp. e.g. no Teclis, some items like Puppet banned, etc. In total there were 8 players including myself (after several dropped out last minute).

There was a total of 3 scenarios to be played (I’ll describe in a bit) and scores were based on results, paint job and sportsmanship - weighted heavily towards actual battle results though.

The list I took was as follows:
Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, 6++, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian

36 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
12 Archers + mus

30 WLs + command, Am.Light, +1 Movement
12 SMs + command, Skeinsliver

2 x GE
GAME 1
My first game was against WoC in a ‘Save the Messenger’ scenario. The idea was to escort your army’s messenger into your opponent’s deployment zone whilst stopping your opponent doing the same. A successful result in doing this would let you look at your opponents list prior to game 2 and also grant an additional +1 for the first turn. Success in dropping off the messenger would also result in 500 bonus VPs being awarded. The only caveat was that the messenger had to be escorted by a core unit with no deployment special rules.

Pairings were generated randomly and I ended up facing a WoC Throggstar w/24 Chosen (sigh):

Throgg
Level 4 Tzeentch Disc Lord
Level 2 Tzeentch Lord (general)
BSB

6 Trolls
50 Khorne Marauders + GW
7 Marauder Horsemen (Slaneesh)

24 Tzeentch Chosen + halberd, favour of the gods, frenzied

2 Warshrines

Deployment Image:
Image

This game went reasonably well (to start with) and I moved my LSG up on the left to take the messenger home. In the center I prepared to try and halt Throgg and the Chaos message whilst Prince Alithir went to work on the right flank against the Marauders. My opponent on the other hand realized he had made a mistake in deployment and that his units were too close together and his Chosen would need to stay back to allow his messenger to come forward with the Trolls.

In the end I got my messenger across the board on my left flank - my opponent tried to speed-bump me with his Disc Lord but this backfired and he ended up losing his level 4 as he fled off the board (hooray rank bonus!). In the center I succeeded in halting Throgg and the Chaos messenger in an unusual manner. I had charged Throgg and his 6 Trolls with my WL and proceeded to deal some 14 wounds and a couple of extras on Throgg. This left him and 2 Trolls alive. Throgg then vomited everywhere and made a mess of the WL who were destroyed. I ended up charging Throgg with the Eagle BSB and my opponent elected to flee as the move would’ve taken him into my deployment zone to drop off the messenger, fortunately for me I caught Throgg as he fled and captured the message and a victory!

We were actually very close on pure battle VPs after the game but the scenario bonuses for the messenger netted me the win.

For people who are interested, a combination of eagle placements and my the impassable terrain in the center left of the board meant the Chosen were relegated to a secondary role. They did get revenge and kill my LSG after I dropped the messenger though.

GAME 2
The second game was an objective based scenario using the meeting engagement diagonal deployment. 5 objectives were placed, 3 of them on the center diagonal of the board and the other two in each player’s deployment zone. 300 bonus VPs were awarded for each objective controlled at the end of the game and if you denied your opponent any.

Opponent’s list:

Level 4 (shadow)
Level 2 Tzeentch + dispel
BSB + stream of corruption

24 Warriors (Khorne) + Halberds
24 Warriors
5 Hounds
5 Hounds

26 Chosen + Favour of the gods, banner of rage

Warshrine
Warshrine
Hellcannon

Yay Chaos… again…

Deployment image:
Image

My opponent deployed pretty well I felt here, his Shadow lord (with Pit) and the Hellcannon were poised to take on my Dragon and the Chosen were in a good position to make a mess of my left. After the previous game’s results I had a mighty +3 for the first turn and promptly rolled a 1. Fail. The warriors moved up and made ready to charge. Obviously the Chosen ended up with a 3++.

I countered by moving my dragon up and in turn 2 got a charge off on the central warriors who collapsed after two turns in CC with the dragon. I then got the other warrior block with it too! The rest of my army stayed back after the WL got handled by a combined Hellcannon/Treason combo – down from 30 to like 10 left. Ouch.

By avoiding the chosen and blocking with Eagles I managed to almost wipe the board clean of everything else but lost my dragon to Pit of Shades (do you test separately here for rider and mount – I think the answer is yes as it’s a template, but a clarification would be good) and then the Prince got mauled in CC by the Hellcannon. That thing is wicked and I did not expect it to be!

At the end of the game I still had all my eagle units (BSB and GE’s) so claimed 3 objectives and contested the other two. Win for the High Elves!

GAME 3
The idea of the final scenario was to destroy as many of your opponents core and special choices as possible. The game used the random deployment rules from the Dawn Attack battle in the BRB. I was playing a solid Lizardmen list and a previous tournament winner who had scored 2 massacres so far. We were the only people to still have a 2-0 record so a win would more than likely secure first place for the victor but second place might not have been enough for prizes given the inclusion of paint scores, etc.

Opponent’s list:

Slann [Life]
Skink Priest (2) [Heavens]
Saurus Hero
Mounted Saurus Hero

21 Saurus + Spears
35 Saurus + Sword + Board
24ish Temple Guard

3 Salamanders
6 Chameleon Skinks
6 Chameleon Skinks

Deployment image:
Image

I was not looking forward to this one at all after the random deployment had been resolved. To cap it off, my opponent then rolled the required ‘6’ to take the first turn from me. Cue Dwellers on WL. This game went very badly to start with, Slann moved up with Salamanders and Saurus moved to protect the flank of the Temple Guard. I lost 25 of my 36 LSG the first time they got flamed by the Sallies and the Skinks proceeded to destroy the rest of them (and my other core choices). My dragon charged the largest Saurus block and proceeded to flee after failing a ld 10 rerollable post massacring a Saurus in a challenge...

Fortunately for me, Prince Alithir rallied within a couple of inches of the board edge. My opponent then managed to IF and suck his Slann into the void. This was followed in the same magic phase by the Skink Priest casting Comet irresistibly on 3d and sucking himself into the void also. As you might expect this helped me out massively and after some tricky maneuvering I won the game with a massacre (WL v. Saurus seems to be good for WL, very, very good!).

Of course this also meant I had a really good chance of winning the tournament - even with my semi-painted army!

RESULTS
So the standings were:

1st: High Elves (me!!!)
2nd: Lizardmen (the guy I played)
3rd: Empire

So I came out on top and with some serious lists in attendance! In particular I was happy with the way I dealt with the two Chaos lists and managing to avoid the 3++ Chosen (twice). The mobility in this Stardragon list is awesome and really helpful when playing against these guys. Eagles as usual were MVPs but the BSB and to a lesser extent the Prince on Dragon can also help out with redirecting and baiting units.

I was also very lucky to avoid playing any of the ‘true’ cannon lists (Empire or Ogres) and this helped me out a great deal. I know from experience that Stardragon v. cannon is not a great matchup. Particularly when they are rerolling dice in the case of Dwarf/Ogre cannons. So, as usual a combination of luck and tbh, some average generalship got me to the top!

Also, apologies for the lack of 'real' BatReps. Taking notes and playing a tournament is pretty much impossible for me at the moment! I will have some list discussion following later in the week.

OTHER LISTS IN ATTENDANCE
I thought it might be useful for people to see the other lists in attendance just to get an idea of some of the stuff that is ‘out there’ and to give some examples of what people might face.

The other lists:

Ogres
Slaughtermaster (4) [Maw] + Greedy Fist, Fencers Blades, Ward
BSB

10 Iron Guts
10 Bulls

6 ManEaters + poison and swiftstride
2 Iron Blasters
3 cats

Ogres
Slaughtermaster (4) [Maw] + Greedy Fist, Fencers Blades, Ward
BSB

Big Gutstar

3 Mournfangs
3 Mournfangs

Iron Blaster
Thundertusk

Empire
Luthor Huss
BSB
Level 4 (heavens)
Level 2 (heavens)
2x Engineer

10 IC Knights
10 Reiksguard
6 Knights
6 Knights

2 x 3 Demigryphs
Steam Tank
2x Helblaster

Vampires (light on details on this one, sorry)
Black Knight Bus + Characters
6 Varghiests
Lots of skellies & zombies
Last edited by John Rainbow on Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#34 Post by pk-ng »

Hey JRB! Great effort on your part! Goes to show that the dragon list is still viable!
For the initiative test against the dragon no it's take as a whole with an intitiative of the prince! (7?) so you only fail on a 6. As it is considered 1 model with 2 parts.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#35 Post by dabber »

How did Throgg kill all the White Lions? Most he can do, once per game, is 3d6 auto-hits. Also, Throgg would be required to be in a challenge with your champion, so all he could do is kill the champ.

Regarding Pit, you take one test on the highest value, and that affects the entire model. Maybe. Probably. The GW rules for multi-part models remain poorly written and vague, and have been that way for over a decade covering at least 3 editions.

In the last game, after he Dwellered the White Lions, did he not shoot Salamanders at them? With the deployment making the White Lions extremely lonely, how did you keep the Salamanders from cooking them?
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#36 Post by Curu Olannon »

Wow, congratulations on the win :) I am, of course, very happy to see a Star Dragon list achieve such a result!

I completely understand that the reports are somewhat lacking, however you managed to provide a good run-down of the key events in each matchup. I think the way you handled the Chosen in the first 2 games was brilliant and it also goes to show why I just don't think this configuration is that good, at least not compared to what the interent would have you believe.

Game 1 - I didn't completely follow what your Prince did here. Did he go up against the big unit of Marauders? I reckon he could kill them in ~3 rounds of combat alone, especially if you manage to breath fire first. Given the terrain here, my primary objective with him would be to target the Marauders with a breath weapon and then engage, using eagles to get the chosen/trolls away. Remember that fleeing through a building or impassable terrain makes it pretty much impossible to catch you.

Game 2 - I'm not a big fan of the Lions' deployment here, since the Chosen will make them feel very, very sorry if they suffer any damage prior to combat (e.g. Treason, Hellcannon). With that being said, you handled the matchup extremely well. In particular, I like how you just sent the Prince into the Warriors to just decimate them. Even though he eventually died (that Hellcannon really is brutal), I think he won you the game.

Game 3 - unlucky with the deployment and losing first turn, however his miscast more than made up for it. Well played :)

Although I only have a couple of games with the Star Coven so far, I'm sort of missing the sheer power that this list puts out (your list here and my non-coven list are very similar, as I'm sure you know) through the Lions and Swordmasters. I'm not convinced that the Star Coven is worth it, and seeing you move on like this against tough lists and prevail tempts me to go back ;) At least I have plenty of time before a next tournament, so I'll likely try out a few different things!

Again, congratulations :)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#37 Post by John Rainbow »

dabber wrote:How did Throgg kill all the White Lions? Most he can do, once per game, is 3d6 auto-hits. Also, Throgg would be required to be in a challenge with your champion, so all he could do is kill the champ.
I (stoopidly) refused the challenge as I believed I could kill Throgg with the unit before he got to hit back. He then vomited everywhere (literally - he got a huge number of hits) and this combined with the remaining troll attacks and stomps crushed the WL. He must've killed couple before the CC occured I think to wipe them, maybe a flickering fire or something got through earlier in the battle.

Note that I've changed the BatRep to match this as clearly even doing max wounds, Throgg + 2 Trolls could not kill 30 WLs.
dabber wrote:In the last game, after he Dwellered the White Lions, did he not shoot Salamanders at them? With the deployment making the White Lions extremely lonely, how did you keep the Salamanders from cooking them?
The Sallies actually went around the building and cooked the LSG. This forced me to try and do something about them and so I charged in with the BSB to stop them flaming anything else. I imagine my opponent thought he would be able to deal with the WLs with his magic and the Slann as it didn't really have any other targets early on. The 6 skinks behind the WLs also took out a few but moved towards my archers as the game progressed to take out my core and help with the scenario objectives. I imagine my opponent regretted his decision to go after the LSG with the Salamanders after his Slann got sucked into the void! Interestingly, the comet that the Skink Priest cast (irresistibly before exploding) killed more of the Salamanders than my BSB did - while they were locked in CC!
dabber wrote:Regarding Pit, you take one test on the highest value, and that affects the entire model. Maybe. Probably. The GW rules for multi-part models remain poorly written and vague, and have been that way for over a decade covering at least 3 editions.
Yeah, this is where we ended up too. In the end I wasn't unhappy in treating Pit as a template weapon that therefore hits both the rider and the monster. I'll have to read over the rules for this again.
Curu Olannon wrote:I think the way you handled the Chosen in the first 2 games was brilliant and it also goes to show why I just don't think this configuration is that good, at least not compared to what the interent would have you believe.
I was happy with this too. This unit is in some ways very similar to my WL horde (until it gets a ward save and becomes unstoppable) in that you know exactly what it does and with the right units/tactics is easily avoided. As it is such an expensive piece of the army (in this way less like the WLs) then it makes the job of beating the WoC a lot easier as you simply ignore and kill the rest.

A thought I also had was that with all the characters in the unit, I think the dragon could potentially take on the Chosen (even with the 4++ ward from warshrines). Chaos characters must accept challenges and unit champions also have to do so when there is a warshrine on the board. This means that depending on which characters are in there, and what equipment they have, the dragon could potentially keep them tied up a long time with constant challenges and some good luck. The Prince is likely to remove the armour off of the challenge opponent so it is just down to whether they get the ward save or not. There would then probably be enough overkill to then either tie or win the CC as Chosen have few ranks. I am not sure this was the best tactic here but maybe I'll do some math hammer and come back to this. First though, just consider the following: If the unit champ challenges, he dies. No question. Enough overkill is generated to tie/win the CC. If the BSB challenges, the likelihood is that the BSB will die and the unit will lose it rerolls on Ld - and then potentially break from CC (always a possibility!). If the Sorceror challenges he can't really hurt the dragon so it's a question of time before he dies too. So, there are several chances to rout the unit. I think it'll be on the edge of probability but it's certainly possible.

Having said all this though, the wiser option is probably just to avoid them...
Curu Olannon wrote:Game 1 - I didn't completely follow what your Prince did here. Did he go up against the big unit of Marauders? I reckon he could kill them in ~3 rounds of combat alone, especially if you manage to breath fire first. Given the terrain here, my primary objective with him would be to target the Marauders with a breath weapon and then engage, using eagles to get the chosen/trolls away. Remember that fleeing through a building or impassable terrain makes it pretty much impossible to catch you.
You are pretty much bang on what happened here. The Dragon was in CC for a few rounds with the Marauders and then moved to try and engage the Trolls in the rear. He never actually needed to take a break test against them as he always won CC. Unfortunately the Prince was too late to save the WLs but the Eagle BSB did for them anyway when they ran from a charge.
Curu Olannon wrote:Game 2 - I'm not a big fan of the Lions' deployment here, since the Chosen will make them feel very, very sorry if they suffer any damage prior to combat (e.g. Treason, Hellcannon). With that being said, you handled the matchup extremely well. In particular, I like how you just sent the Prince into the Warriors to just decimate them. Even though he eventually died (that Hellcannon really is brutal), I think he won you the game.
Again you are correct. As soon as the Chosen went down I regretted the placement. I thinkI would've been better off switching them with the LSG and having a strong center with a large threat range to force my opponent's hand. In reality, by putting the WLs here they spent the game trying to avoid being charged by anything. They also got 'treasoned' (one of the best spells ever against WL!) and thus became completely combat ineffective. They ended up getting guard duty on my back field objective.

The Prince on Dragon won this game for me. Hands down he was the MVP. I have been trying to use the dragon more aggressively and did so to the max. here. The first unit to get charged was the central Khorne warrior unit - this tied them up and also blocked the other Warrior unit due to their placement in relation to the combat. After a couple of turns the warriors were run down as they fled. The dragon then went after the other warrior unit (Chaos Sorcerer had wisely moved into the building) and killed them in a single turn after they failed a steadfast 8. The dragon was then pitted by the sorcerer after I rolled separately for mount and rider (I need to read up on this) and left the Prince alone in the Chaos DZ. I had never faced a Hellcannon in CC before and don't want to again. It wasted the Prince pretty quickly and cost me pretty much all the points he had accrued in killed Chaos Warriors.
Curu Olannon wrote:Game 3 - unlucky with the deployment and losing first turn, however his miscast more than made up for it.
Random deployment really screwed me here to the point where I thought it was already over after T1. I was very fortunate with the miscast results (just goes to show you should always dispel Throne of Vines where possible) and this really swung the game in my favour - though it was by no means over at that stage. I think this opponent had it coming though. By all accounts he had some very lucky breaks earlier in the day. There's also a pic of him and the Slann posing after he rolled 6 6's for a Dwellers attempt against the Empire player he faced in round 2.
Curu Olannon wrote:I'm not convinced that the Star Coven is worth it, and seeing you move on like this against tough lists and prevail tempts me to go back
I am a relatively new player (to Fantasy at least) having started gaming again less than a year ago after a long hiatus from 40K. Thus my list is slightly different to some of yours as I currently don't have the ability to handle as many units or combinations at the same time - this I know after I tried a more Dragon MSU approach. I started this list as a build up to the Crossroads GT in September this year and will need to make some changes and add some units as the tournament approaches due to list restrictions (mainly no unit over 450pts, no more than 45 missile troops.

My issue with the coven at the moment is that you have lost something really special in the Eagle mount for the BSB. He adds so much to the list and being relegated to a footslogger has really hurt him. Looking at your last BatRep against a Demons force with a limited magic phase also, I don't think the coven really did that much for you that a level 2 couldn't achieve (obv. you got more spells which is handy). This was also against a demons force which should really fear light magic. I would be very tempted to put the eagle back under the BSB somehow. Maybe you could do a 'Coven-Lite' with only two mages if you took out the small WL unit as well? Str5 Banishment is still pretty decent.
Last edited by John Rainbow on Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#38 Post by Curu Olannon »

Interesting point of view on the Star Coven. My primary concern right now is the hitting power of the infantry, I haven't really found that I miss the flying BSB that much (yet, that is!). By having him back on the Eagle, he either has to forego a decent save (by taking RGoH) or lose the magic capabilities. I'm not very comfortable with having him with a poor save, and without him I lose out on spell selection and Banishment would only be S5.

As for your list - fixing it with regards to the comp I believe you'll have almost exactly the same list I fielded at Crusade: the Lions have to drop something (I chose to drop 4 of them to keep M6 and magical attacks) and you need to change the core. Essentially, these restrictions work like ETC restrictions :) Let me tell you though, I find that the difference between 30 and 26 Lions is surprisingly big.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#39 Post by John Rainbow »

So, I found this online which I thought was an eloquent description of what happens when a Dragon/Rider is hit by, for instance, Pit of Shades:
1. The "Templates" rule explains what happens when a character on a monster is hit by a template.
2. This replaces the 2nd step of the "Shooting at Ridden Monsters rules" whenever a template is involved thus eliminating the randomising rules.
3. It is then followed by step 3 the wounding rules.
4. Purple Sun/Pit of Shades are spells that use templates and thus hit both the rider and his mount.
5. These spells however do not wound but cause a characteristic test, one per model.
6. These hits would mean two tests, but this would brake rule example 5, because a character and his monster are one model.
Conclusion – We have no choice but to make one test using the rules as given on page 10.
Curu Olannon wrote:Interesting point of view on the Star Coven.
Perhaps I should have been clearer about the BSB. I meant that you should drop the RGoH and get him 'back to how he was'. Also, banishment would still be Str5 if you had two mages which is ok I guess. It's not up to the standard set by Brewmaster but I don't think you can emulate that kind of magical power here and do everything else too.
Curu Olannon wrote:As for your list - fixing it with regards to the comp I believe you'll have almost exactly the same list I fielded at Crusade
I think I might end up somewhere similar too but we'll see. It also depends on what I can get painted between now and September - basically none of my core is painted and I need to do the Dragon too so I might not be able to take what I want. I could be in for some late nights! My issue with the list you have is that I struggle with MSU. I think this is due to my relatively recent start in playing WFB. I imagine I'll get better at it eventually. For this reason I could see me taking spears as core in a bug unit rather than having the 10 guys meandering around uselessly on my board!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#40 Post by Curu Olannon »

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I was talking about this version of my list:
:: ETC Dragonlord - 2500 points High Elves ::

Prince Saerith with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense, Talisman of Loec, riding Faeria the Star Dragon - 622
Noble BSB Naenor with Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Eagle - 208
High Mage Curu Olannon with Level 2, Annulian Crystal - 175

Characters :: 1005

30 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames - 365
15 Archers, Musician - 170
10 Spearelves - 90

Core :: 625

26 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light - 450
14 Swordmasters, Full Command, Skeinsliver, Gleaming Pennant - 270

Special :: 720

3 Great Eagles - 150

Rare :: 150

Army Total :: 2500
Do you consider this very MSU-ish?
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#41 Post by John Rainbow »

I do not consider the list you have posted to be very MSU-ish although your latest incarnation (used against Dark Reaper) does seem to be going more in that direction. I have also made a post on your blog continuing the discussion of your list over there.

My issue when I come to the tournament will be that I don't have that many archers and have no plans to get that many between now and then. My core will probably be something like:

40 Spearmen + command, BoEF
10 Archers + mus
10 Archers + mus

For a total of 625pts. I am however annoyed that this gives me an extra drop compared to my current list which I don't really want so the archers may get combined in the end.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#42 Post by John Rainbow »

POST TOURNAMENT LIST DISCUSSION
Following on from the tournament I played, I have put down some of my thoughts on things that could change in this list. I have not commented on the other units.

Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
The focus of the list. My only issue relating to the tournament is that I did not declare Loec even once. Admittedly I did not face any ridiculous combat characters, but still, 10pts is a lot to waste in a list such as this where points are at a premium. I’m not sure what to do on this one as I have gotten the use out of Loec before (i.e. when facing a Slaughtermaster or Luthor Huss in CC) but sometimes it just doesn’t feel worth it.

On the other hand, I’m not sure how I could re-kit the Prince to retain the same capabilities as he has now but including the other shard instead (a big issue here is retaining the AS and the Str). If anyone has any ideas I’d be glad to hear them.

Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, 6++, Helm Fortune
This guy was great but in terms of load out I’m tempted to drop the 6++. A 2+ re-rollable is generally more than enough and probability wise I’m not sure the 6++ is worth it. If he gets hit with something that ignores armour saves I imagine a 6++ will be pretty much useless due to the number of attacks that will be hitting home. Think Spirit Leech or something. So, I have just cut 10pts from the list here. The problem is where do I spend them? The extra 10pts will probably be more helpful when I move towards changing the list for Crossroads.

Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian
TBH I didn’t get much mileage out of the mage in attack but had some serious defence in my opponents’ phases. I also didn’t miss the dispel scroll at all for once. My main concerns here are in choosing the correct lore to use.

I’m pretty sure that either Light or High magic are the best choices but have recently been swayed towards light magic. The issue with High is that the chances of getting a magic missile are small and I’m having trouble employing Shield of Saphery effectively. The mage is typically deployed with the archers or LSG in the backfield and thus I have issues giving the 5++ to the unit that wants it – my main combat units are generally so mobile that they move out of range of the spell and I am loathe to move my mage into a vulnerable position.
To conclude, high magic is losing out at the moment. The utility of light as a general lore is great and the signature magic missile is something that greatly benefits this list as my luck with archers/LSG is pretty poor.

36 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
I had a role in mind for these guys but they always seem to underachieve. My army is highly mobile and thus, having a core section that can hold ground and provide fire support to the faster elements works well in theory. In practice however, I have yet to have these guys deliver and I am sorely tempted to switch back to a big block of spears.

For the moment I am going to leave these guys in the list as I don’t really feel like they have had their capabilities fully tested. Several games against highly armoured troops (empire cav. Lists in practice games and the WoC in the tourney) along with being toasted by Salamanders hasn’t proven much so far other than the fact that Str3 can’t dent armour. Having said this though, if this is what my opponents are going to be using then spearmen would definitely be the way forward.

Moving forward to the Crossroads GT I am going to have to change up my list and redistribute the points in my core. As such, thinking about how to do that sooner rather than later is probably a good idea.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#43 Post by Curu Olannon »

I think that if you want mobile firepower you need to reduce the unit size. Perhaps 20 + 16 Sea Guard could work for example? Truly, I find that 30 Archers actually perform this role very well, I've rarely had issues with their footprint during deployment.

I think you're pretty much spot on with regards to the analysis you've presented. As far as Loec's concerned, there will frequently be games where you don't need it at all, but just wait until that Greater Daemon needs to die or you're engaged against a Vampire Lord: you'll be more than glad enough you brought it over e.g. Gem of Courage. When you keep munching infantry though, you just don't need it ;)

Light vs High - though Shield can frequently be out of range you have 4 offensive spells with a 24" range - fury, flames, vaul's, curse. In addition to Drain, I think this is a decent selection. I also find that the third spell makes a huge difference in flexibility when I get a big phase. Also, I see Vaul's and Flame's as potential game-breakers whereas Light is more about slightly changing the odds. That being said, Pha's and Speed of Light can be real killers!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#44 Post by pk-ng »

Hey JRB. I've been running 30 LSGs at the moment and the only issue I have them is their large footprint. Unlike Archers who don't really need to move that much I found that I'm moving the LSGs alot more because they only have 24" and I want them to be close enough for combat support if needed. I found them a bit unwieldy and mobility was restrictive due to terrain. Maybe I deployed them wrong? (deployed them 15x2) but I wanted to make sure I maximised my shooting.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#45 Post by John Rainbow »

Hi pk-ng. I agree that the difference in range is problematic! Deploying 15x2 is always difficult for a unit that is going to move. Like you say, the LSG need to fulfill two roles which don't exactly go hand in hand. If you do use your LSG in CC then I would recommend not deploying 15 wide. I would probably deploy 6 wide and take advantage of the volley fire rule if possible. You should get 21 shots or 12 shots on the move this way and is what I have done in the past. Chances are if you deploy wide you might get 1 or 2 turns of shooting in before you have to reform anyway to receive a charge.

Out of interest, what context are you playing the LSG in? i.e. what's the rest of your list? Are you trying to form an all-comers army or are you targeting someone specific? This might help you decide what you want to do with them.

For myself and in my dragon list, the LSG still have a big question mark hanging over them. They never seem to do enough to justify the points I put into them and can't keep pace with my other faster elements. The problem I have with taking spearmen though is that they need buffs to really get going and having a low level caster in my list really puts a damper on what they can realistically achieve. I might end up having to be boring and copy Curu with the all archer core...

Also, thanks for the comment on the Pit of Shades. I think I agree with you after reading the rules again.

[edit: I made a post about this on your blog]
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#46 Post by John Rainbow »

So I was meant to play a 2500pt game last night but only 3 of us showed up for our 1v1 games so we ended up playing a fun 3-way game. I took a slightly modified list - less SMs and 2 mages, a level 2 beasts with the seerstaff and a level 2 high with the crystal. I was playing against Lizards with Slann and Empire with lvl4. Needless to say, I got next to no spells off during the game. It's given me some pause for thought in how I want to build/play my magic phase. Watch this space...
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#47 Post by pk-ng »

My list is pretty much an all-comers list. I only tweak the items here and there. I think your comments on 6 wide deployment has its merits. I might try deploying them less wide (try 10x3, or 8x4 or etc....) and see how things go. I'll be vs'ing daemons this coming weekend so i'll have to see how useful they will be - my predictions - very good shooting at bloodletters then reform to take a charge.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#48 Post by John Rainbow »

I have a game coming up (tomorrow night) against a new Lizardmen player in the area. At the moment I'm considering whether I want to use the double mage (Beasts,High) approach or go for something different. My issue with the list has been trying to cram in the ability to damage something such as a cannon at range - pretty much all I can think of is a magic missile. I'll post my list up when I decide on it.

Hopefully I'll be able to do a BatRep on this one!
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#49 Post by John Rainbow »

So unfortunately no game this week - PhD took over for a while :(

I did however finish up my BSB on Eagle last week so have included a couple of pictures here:

Image

Image

I am on a schedule with painting due to the tournament I want to attend in September so hopefully there will be some more photos soon as I make progress. The list below is of the stuff I still have to do before the army is complete...

Prince Alithir on Star Dragon (base coats done)
Second Mage
8 Archers (undercoated)
28 LSG
30 WLs (about halfway done)
2 Eagles (currently still being converted/sculpted)
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#50 Post by SpellArcher »

There's something really nice about him.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#51 Post by John Rainbow »

Thanks SpellArcher. It's a really old mini and TBH, I tend to like those more than the new ones - maybe I make more of an effort when painting them?

So, what's going on currently...
  • Painting for the tournament in September: currently working on a unit of Maiden Guard (counts as LSG)
  • Trying to come up with some ideas for a display board: I want it to have modular terrain so I can use it for my Blood Angels too
  • 2500pt game coming up on Thursday night
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#52 Post by John Rainbow »

I've been making some progress with my painting. The dragon has been undercoated and has a layer of wash added. I'm going for purple scales and blue skin. The Maiden Guard (counts as LSG) have also been blocked out with colours and washed with black/brown inks. I'm going for white robes, blue skirts, silver armour and gold/red trim for other bits. Wish me luck, I need to get this lot done ASAP!

Image
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#53 Post by John Rainbow »

Hi all. So, no updates for a while. I have been playing but most of my games have either been 3 person 'free-for-all's' or games against some friends who are new to the game. Needless to say, there is not generally much to be learned from either game types. The 3-way generally ends up with two players (usually me + Dark Elves - very fluffy) cutting each other to pieces and the third player cleaning up the board afterwards. The other games have been an introduction to the game so I don't really want to BatRep these either. Doing a BatRep against newbies doesn't really get anyone anywhere.

So, what will I be doing in the near future? Painting is the answer. I have a lot to do and that must be done soon. I also have some new brushes so I was thinking of doing a short little write up on my opinions on different brushes sometime soon.

I also have all the stuff at my house for my display board. I'm using an 18"x22" corkboard from Amazon as the base for the board. It has a nice frame around it and I'm hoping to use the student machine shop to make a few little plaques to go on it depending on the army I'm using - they have a laser cutter so I should be able to knock up a few nice brass etched markers for my armies. As for the stuff on top of it, I have inherited a load of foam and these really cool plaster cast parts. Kind of like lego for warhammer. I also have a homebrew hotwire now too.

Check these out molds, they totally rock and are super easy to use!
http://www.hirstarts.com/molds/molds.html
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#54 Post by John Rainbow »

2500 Star Dragon List v. Ogre Kingdoms
So I christened my new basement gaming room with two games on Saturday. The first of these was against Ogre Kingdoms. I wasn't entirely looking forward to this match up as OK are a very good match against my list with the large number of multi-wound monstrous infantry getting stomps on my infantry and the super-cannons they have being very good at dragon sniping. Well, here goes...

The Lists:
High Elves
Prince Alithir on Stardragon + GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec
Casyin, Noble BSB on eagle + S.Might, DA, shield, 6++, Helm Fortune
Eiltia, Level 2 Light Mage + Annulian
Fenrier, Level 2 Light Mage + Silver Wand

28 Seaguard + command, shields, BoEF
21 Archers + mus

26 WLs + command, Am.Light, +1 Movement
7 SMs + command, Skeinsliver

2 x GE

Ogre Kingdoms
Slaughter Master(4) [Heavens] + Crown Command, 6++
Butcher(1) [Maw]
BSB + Razor Banner
Hero + 4+/4++

10 Ironguts
10 Bulls

6 Man Eaters + Swiftstride, poison, Dragon Banner (reroll 1s on charge, breath weapon)
2 x Iron Blaster Cannon
3 x Sabretusk

Deployment
Image
So I made a big mistake here in putting the woods in between our armies. This would hurt my shooting but would leave his cannons unaffected!. It would also be bad for all my flying units. Doh! I remember thinking about the WL 'Woodsmen' rules when I put them down.

As for actual placement, I was pretty happy. The HE had a strong right flank while the Dragon would force the Ogres to stay central and threaten the other flank. This went about as well as it could have done as the OK had more 'chaff' drops - 3 cats and 2 cannon.

For spells I had Shem's and Net on the Annulian mage while the Wand mage had Shem's, Banishment and Speed of Light. The Ogres got the Maw spell making a unit stubborn and the Slaughter Master got Convergence, Blizzard, Curse & Comet.

High Elf T1
Image
So I won the roll-off for first turn (I had +2) and obviously went first to try and mitigate the 'cannon effect'. The HE forces moved up cautiously and the Dragon hid behind the building to avoid one of the inevitable cannon shots.

Magic was 7v4 and I started with a 5d Net of Amyntok on the Iron Guts which went through. The magic missiles that followed were dispelled. Shooting was ineffective due to the combination of LSG moving and units shooting through the woods.

Ogre T1
Image
The Ogres responded with a slow stumble forward. The Man Eaters moved up to protect the flank of the Guts - the dragon would be counter charged if he went after either unit in the High Elf turn. Net of Amyntok did nothing all phase after I forgot about it and my opponent neglected to remind me about it - not his prerogative but it was a friendly game after all.

Magic was 4v5 thanks to the crystal and I shut down his phase.

I was dreading the shooting phase but the cannon that could shoot the Dragon rolled a '1' to wound the dragon (the Prince saved on his 4++) and the other cannon misfired and spun around.

High Elf T2
Image
Turn 2 saw the dragon hop around the building again to avoid the cannons. On the other side of the board the BSB and Eagle moved to threaten the flank of the Bulls.

An 8v4 magic phase saw the cat eat a magic missile before being shot in the shooting phase by the LSG who finished it off. Banishment (Str5) on the Iron Blaster was dispelled but the archers managed 3 wounds on the Bull unit.

Ogre T2
Image
Again there was not much moving on the part of the Ogres... They could afford to sit back and attempt to down the Dragon with cannon fire whilst I needed to get closer to do any real damage.

Magic was 10v7 but a failure to cast Curse of the Midnight Wind as the opening spell shut down the phase.

The cannon on the hill then proceeded to misfire and was not able to shoot again during the game. The other cannon then missed the BSB. Not great for the Ogres...

High Elf T3
Image
The game was still cagey and some canny movement of Guts/M.Eaters on my opponent's part was preventing my dragon from getting into CC. I needed to get to grips with my opponent and moved up my Eagles to redirect him. The WLs moved up further to help support the dragon and the SMs and BSB moved to combo charge the Bulls next turn.

A combination of magic missiles and shooting did 11W to the Ogre Bulls.

Ogre T3
Image
Both blocking Eagles were charged and held steady as the Ogres thundered forwards. The Man Eaters also attempted a charge on the Dragon but failed (should be a red arrow on the pic!). Elsewhere the other Ogre units shuffled around for better angles/shots.

The winds came up 9v7 after channels and the WLs were the recipient of an Iceshard Blizzard. Curse on the dragon was dispelled by me using 5d but I was unable to prevent a boosted Harmonic Convergence (reroll 1s).

The functional Iron Blaster misfired again...

High Elf T4
Image
So it was time for the metal to hit the meat. Charges were declared across the board. The Prince Alithir and the WLs attacked the Guts and Ogre Lord while the SM, LSG and BSB went after the Ogre Bulls hiding the enemy BSB and butcher. Unfortunately the LSG had misjudged the charge distance from the river and faltered after moving just a few inches - it was a long charge for both the SM and the LSG. In all likelihood only one of the units would have made it into B2B.

The magic phase was shut down after my opponent pulled his scroll but the archers managed to take out one of the remaining Sabre Tusk cats.

CC was predictably bloody. The Ogre challenged and the WL champ stepped up. He did 1W to the Iron gut champ and survived the return attacks. The Prince made 2W on the Guts, the WL did another 10 to the unit, 1W on the hero and 1W on the Slaughter Master. The dragon then lashed out and scored 4W before adding another 3 with his breath weapon. In return the Ogres managed to kill 20 WLs! Miraculously I won the combat but the Ogre General had the Crown of Command so they held on a stubborn Ld check. I hadn't anticipated the combat going that badly for me or the enemy being stubborn. This was bad news. I was about to take a charge from the Man Eaters and my WL champ was stuck in a challenge so the Dragon would be exposed.

In the other combat a BSB v BSB challenge took place where Casyin and his Eagle managed to score a wound and take one in return. The SMs were cut down but scored a few wounds. I lost combat by 1 but passed my Ld test. The Ogres reformed.

Ogre T4
Image
As expected the Man Eaters hit the dragon in the flank. The Iron Blasters and cats moved to make supporting charges next turn if required.

Magic was 9v7 and I dispelled Iceshard Blizzard (4v3d) but failed to dispel Harmonic Convergence (5v4d). The Iron Blaster then splatted 2 LSG.

In combat the Man Eaters impact hits put a wound on the Dragon before the Prince dished out 2W to the guts. In the challenge the WL champ cut down the Iron gut Champion before his comrades did 3W to the rest of the unit. The dragon took 4 wounds but did 2 to the Guts himself. The WL unit was then cut down. At this point I forgot the unit champ had been in a challenge and took him off the board too - while this probably wouldn't have mattered much (and didn't), the lone WL might have held the Iron Guts and Lords in place. The result of the combat was that a single Iron Gut remained of the unit whilst they had been moved out of B2B with the Dragon and were now free to move on.

On the other side of the board, the BSB scored a single wound on the Ogre BSB and combat was a push.

High Elf T5
Image
The LSG made it into CC with the Bulls at the start of the turn. As for the rest, magic was shut down after poor rolls from me with low winds (6v5). In combat, both the Prince and Dragon and the Man Eaters mostly whiffed their attacks so not much happened here or on the other side of the board where both sides held firm (I believe we were pretty close on combat res after the combat).

Ogre T5
Image
My opponent was growing in confidence as each player turn passed at this point. It was not looking good for the Dragon against the Man Eaters (they had a high enough Str to wound it) and the combat on the other side of the board could go either way. A good magic phase would really swing things in my opponent's favour, naturally this is what happened. On the right-hand side of the board the Iron Blaster charged into the fray to add some extra combat res as it would hit the flank.

After generating 11v8 for power dice, I dispelled Iceshard Blizzard (3v3d) and then failed to dispel Harmonic Convergence on the Man Eaters. My opponent was then free to make his Bull unit stubborn.

The Man Eater v. Prince/Dragon combat ended with me winning & therefore surviving by a couple of wounds but he held on Steadfast with the General's Ld. On the otehr side of the board I also won CC after the BSB did a wound in the challenge, the LSG added 4 more with the Ogres managing 3W in return. This meant the Iron Blaster ran off but the Bulls held on their stubborn Ld check.

High Elf T6
Image
I was locked in CC so my movement phase was largely non-existant. A combination of magic and shooting managed to kill the last Iron Gut (after a lot of randomising hits!).

In CC Prince Alithir manged to cut down a Man Eater but the dragon was felled in return. The Ogres won the CC and the Prince ran only to be chased and caught. On the other side of the board the Bulls were reduced to a single man accompanying a heavily wounded BSB and wounded Butcher. There were not enough Elves left to continue the fight however and so the Elves elected to retire from the field.

Result - DEFEAT
In the end this was a loss. I had manged to kill a single unit and a couple of cats whilst my opponent had managed to crush most of my army other than my core choices. VPs worked out to 1322 v roughly 500 in my opponent's favour. Had we been taking into account units that were half-destroyed it would have been closer to a draw but I'm grasping at straws with that arguement to be honest as I had clearly lost and would have taken further damage in the Ogre T6. Annoyingly I had caused a lot of wounds across the board but his characters were all still standing (a couple of them with but a single wound) and a lone Iron Gut held onto some 500-odd points. This is getting to be a familiar experience for me against Ogres where I put out lots of wounds but not enough to completely finish the job! It's hugely frustrating!

So, what went wrong. A bug question I asked at the end of the game was should I have charged earlier in the game into the Man Eaters or the Iron guts with the Prince/Dragon. I still think that this was not an option as I needed the support of the WLs so stick by my cannon-dodging, building-hopping tactics for the first few turns. Having said this, I was also very lucky to avoid taking any real damage from cannon fire over the course of the entire game.

Interestingly, the Prince did not take a single wound all game and the fact that I had the Talisman of Loec slipped my mind as I usually activate it in challenge situations. In T4 when I initially charged with the Prince and WLs I should have used the Talisman. The rerolls could have helped me out a lot as the Prince only did 2W (of a possible 4) while the Dragon did 4 out of 6 and a further few with its breath attack. An extra couple of wounds could have really swung this combat and prevented so many WLs from being killed. It would also have gone some way to mitigate the effect of all the buffs/debuffs my opponent had put on in his magic phase.

I was really disappointed with my magic phase in this game, especially my magical defence which is usually very good. I was powerless to stop two good phases my opponent had - the one helping him out against the Prince and WLs and the other making the Bulls stubborn. Without these two crucial phases I would likely have caught the Bulls on the right hand flank as they fled as the eagle BSB rolls 3d for pursuit. The dragon and WLs would also have done much better against the Iron Guts and reduced both the number of return attacks and losses they suffered. Because of this my list is changing. I am taking out the Silver Wand and a single WL in order to give the second mage a dispel scroll and the Iron Curse icon (there are an extra 5pts knocking around).

As an aside, I also forgot terror/fear all game but so did my opponent. You might say it's generally not a big deal but in my last 3 games my WLs have failed a re-rollable fear test in each one so it does happen! I really need to remember this and terror!

Any comments would be great. The HE v Lizardmen BatRep to follow soon...
Last edited by John Rainbow on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#55 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Yeowch - tough game mate!

Only one question really springs to mind - Turn 3, would it have been possible to charge the left-most Ironblaster on the hill with your Star Dragon Prince? I know its not likely to pop it in one turn, and then you probably would have had the maneaters in his flank though...

Other than that, I think you may have jumped the gun a bit when charging those two units. I think I would have hung back a bit and castled up in the corner - after they cleared the woods, you might have had one good shooting phase before they began charging, with eagle delays two turns, then a stand and shoot. The Ogres would have been stood in the river that way as well, though it wouldn't do anything against the slaughtermaster's unit with the crown...
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#56 Post by John Rainbow »

Hey Milliardo! Thanks for the input. I'll try to answer your questions now:
~Milliardo~ wrote:Only one question really springs to mind - Turn 3, would it have been possibl`e to charge the left-most Ironblaster on the hill with your Star Dragon Prince? I know its not likely to pop it in one turn, and then you probably would have had the maneaters in his flank though...
It might not be too clear from the BatRep but I don't think I could charge the Iron Blaster I1. I could possibly have charged Iron Blaster I2 in the central area but it was a long charge. If it made it, the Dragon would definitely win the combat and more than likely force the cannon to flee. The wise move would then probably be to reform and hit the Bulls, hoping that the BSB and SMs or whatever can hold them up in CC for a turn at least - which is what happened. I would then be free to move after the other units assuming I could keep my WL far enough back and use my eagles to prevent them charging me. However, considering the distance I would have to go, I'm not sure I would do this. A failed charge would leave me high and dry in front of the Iron Guts which would be unpleasant as it both hampers the movement of the WL and might allow the Ogres to charge me.
~Milliardo~ wrote:Other than that, I think you may have jumped the gun a bit when charging those two units. I think I would have hung back a bit and castled up in the corner - after they cleared the woods, you might have had one good shooting phase before they began charging, with eagle delays two turns, then a stand and shoot. The Ogres would have been stood in the river that way as well, though it wouldn't do anything against the slaughtermaster's unit with the crown...
You might be right, however, I was reluctant to do this for several reasons. Firstly, he had the Comet as a spell and if he wanted it to go off he could more than likely ensure it did (at the cost of other spells or by potentially eating a miscast). Secondly, Ogre cannon are the best in the game right now and leaving the Dragon out in the open is a sure fire way for them to get target practice - the Ogres can afford to sit and try to snipe the Dragon as they don't necessarily need to be in CC to win. I do. The last reason I did not take this approach is that taking an Ogre charge is not fun. All those impact hits happen before CC starts and in my experience really make a mess of our troops!

I think both your comments are leading in the right direction though - it was probably not the best idea to charge when I did and against the opponents I did. I could possibly have refused the left a little more and used the dragon's mobility to switch the focus of my attack and concentrate all my forces on the Bull unit. I would then be free to sweep right to left across the board, assuming I could hold up the Ogre right with eagles, etc. This would also have the benefit of leaving the Man Eaters out of the game for a while. They are also the single unit that can reliably hurt the dragon so it is good to try and leave them alone if possible. So, maybe I should have moved the dragon slightly more central earlier in the game to threaten a wider range of units?
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#57 Post by Jal »

How are you finding the 2 mage council JR?

With so few points spent on Magic, I'd be tempted by High/Fire or High/Heavens, or eben High/Beasts

The High magic helps you protect units with the ward, and Fire gives you some missiles. Heavns is very underrated, and the signature gives the Dragon a much better chance of breaking units in 1 round, and with the other buffs (Curse of the Midnight Wind or Harmonic Convergence) the Dragon's life epxpectancy/damage output is much greater.
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#58 Post by John Rainbow »

Jal wrote:How are you finding the 2 mage council JR?
I made the move to a 2 mage list after my last tournament. The reasoning being that a single level 2 is too easy to stop/kill and the chance of failing a dispel, etc is that much more than with a level 4. So far I have been happy with the extra redundancy this has given me. I don't feel like I have had to lose too much from the list to get two mages - a few less SMs who weren't a combat effective unit anyway. The SMs are more for flanking and combo charges and as a Skeinsliver caddy. After the Ogre game I also made the change to have a lvl2 w/crystal and lvl2 w/scroll. This required me to lose an extra WlL but I feel like I have gained so much more in defence.

As for magic lore, I'm still not sure which is best. With only level 2's and the need I have for cheap casting cost magic missiles it is highly beneficial to take the same lore and thus have a greater chance of getting the spells that I want. I don't really consider fire or heavens an option at the moment as fire has generally low Str (Shem's for example can be boosted to Str6 and 48" if required) while Heavens only has the single missile with a higher cost. Beasts is too support oriented and I need the ranged magical output.

So, there are two choices, Light and High magic. Simply for the fact that I want magic missiles, Light is winning at the moment. There are a couple of spells in High Magic that are of little use to me - Curse and Courage spring to mind immediately whereas Light magic has a plethora of useful spells, all of which could be handy with my list. As an aside, I am a huge fan of Net of Amyntok. Cast it on a mage and his unit and they have to pass a Str test every time they want to cast. Brilliant. This kind of spell really helps make up for some of the magical deficiencies my list has while Banishment (Str5) gives me a chance against cannon. Remember also that Pha's protection can help me out a lot, much like the Heavens signature. In summary then, Light is currently the way I'm going.

I imagine you have some other thoughts Jal? I would love to hear them and your reasoning of why it would work with my list. I find this back and forth discussion of things very useful in thinking about how I do things and thinking differently so keep it coming!
Jal
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#59 Post by Jal »

The reason I'd be tempted by High as one of the lores at least is that with the 5++ you can ward up a Dragon if need be, and with Vauls/Flames there is a must stop spell.

The reason I'd be tempted by Heavens in a Dragon list is that infantry having to re-roll 6s against it means more or less no poision, killing blow and less wounds on the Dragon, and getting to re-roll 1s to hit, wound and save is amazing. The other thing is that normally throwing the Dragon in the front of a ld 8 Steadfast unit is a bad thing - not so with Iceshard Blizzard, a re-rollable 7 is much easier to save

eg:

Top of turn 2, you're able to throw the Dragon and the Eagle BSb (to take the challenge) into a big unit (say 30) of s4 t4 infantry (the usual type to be honest). The BSB kills the champion, and the Dragon/Prince kills a few, but not enough to break Steadfast. Suddenly testing on -1 is a problem, and even if they hold, chances are next turn, by blowing the Breath Weapon too, the unit is no longer Steadfast, allowing you to reform and rinse repeat. Iceshard will also help keep the BSB safe in this example.

I see your point regarding the magic missiles - light is a great choice for this. However, if you are reduced to casting Shems at st6, you're actually better off casting the Heaven's missiles - more bang for your buck.

The reasons for suggesting Beasts were the usual - Wyssans/Panns/Savage Beast on Dragons are horrible
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John Rainbow
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Re: John Rainbow's Adventures - 2500pt Army Blog

#60 Post by John Rainbow »

Thanks for the response Jal!

I'll start with the easy one first: Beasts. While this can be great, it doesn't really make up for any deficiencies in my list or help with the 'dealing with ethereals' bit or my need for some ranged power. It could super power my characters but that means that they have to stay close to the mage which doesn't usually happen. Therefore, Beasts is out.

I admit, you have me more intrigued about Heavens magic. The fact that Killing Blow attacks have to be rerolled with curse is a nice bonus and there are a few other neat spells in there too. I imagine the lore could work but I'd need to test it out. Maybe I'll give it a go this weekend. I also have to say though, for some reason I don't like the look of this lore as much as I do the lore of Light. I think this might be because although the buffs are nice, Light does a better job with the ranged magical damage for a lower casting cost.

As for High, I agree that there are a couple of decent spells in there but this list I use does not need the ward save like some other HE lists do. There is also the need for the mage to be close enough to cast the spell on the unit that wants it. My BSB and Prince especially tend to move more than 18" from the mage at various points during the game. This is because he is hiding at the back with the archers and the characters are moving around the flanks/rear of the enemy tearing stuff up. I agree that Vaul's can be a gamebreaker but not so much on Flames. I would prefer a few more magic missiles if possible than just Fury and Flames so I think this lore has to be crossed out too for now.
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