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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:13 pm 
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I don't know, it might help to actually practise against all armies and not just theoretically know how to beat them...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:54 am 
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Indeed you are right Elithmar, the more armies you can practice against, the better. However I have limited time and I believe that I can more out of playing the matchups where I'm supposed to do well rather than play matchups where I'm supposed to do poorly. In the latter case, it's more about my opponents making mistakes or me being lucky that can lead to a big victory (see the recent game against Dwarfs - a combination of poor war machine layout and my luck at 4+ re-rollable armour saves saw me through quite a lot!). The essence is that if I only have time for, say, 2 games, then I believe I can learn more by playing against lists like Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos than Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms. Perhaps this is wrong, but I'll be looking to play the armies I have yet to face as well, at some point :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:06 am 
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Curu! i've finally caught up! Congrats on the placing in the tournament and well done overall.

On the dragon prince bus:

It seems good on paper. Again on paper. But its a huge point sink that doesn't have the durability of the same amount of white lions nor the overall killing power. Not to mention it leaves your bsb exposed on short frontage and counter charges. I've ran the cavalry bus with the dragon lord and i was underwhelmed to say the least. Its a cool unit but i think our cavalry is still best run as chaff hunters, line exposers, and shock troopers instead of a main line unit engager.

Did that make sense? I have baby elf on my lap and only 6 hours of sleep the past two nights!


How's that music working out for you? :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:43 am 
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The bus would be to replace the Swordmasters, not the Lions, as per Furion's suggestion.

I imagine the list something like this:

Dragon - as is
BSB - same equipment, but on a barded steed
Mage - as is

Core - either as is or replaced by 45 Sea Guard

Lions - as is
Swords cost 270 points at the moment. That gives me 9 DP sharp to play around with. However, I need the Skeinsliver, which means that I need to free 25 points, as well as the upgrade for the Champion. A musician wouldn't hurt either. Though the BSB downgrade sees me save a few points, it's not enough for this so I'll have to drop an Eagle to get the points.

I'm fully prepared to discard the idea, but nevertheless with recent experiences fresh in mind, I think it's worth trying out, at the very least :)

As for the music, I find that the army plays as a mix of ballads and really heavy stuff. 'Calm before the Storm' sorta thing (just see the last VC game, lots of positioning and minor battles and then BOOM! HEADSHOT!). As such, the music I listen to before a game ranges from classical game/movie-music from people like Hans Zimmer, Brian Tyler, John Williams to more angry stuff like Children of Bodom (did you notice the tribute?), Prodigy, Symphony X ^^

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:51 am 
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Hey Curu. I am more and more warming up to the star dragon. Had a run at some empire yesterday, never played them before but I seemed to do alright. I took a 1w on drag/warded cannon ball top of turn 1 but my opponent never got another chance to shoot at it with his 2 cannons. 1 was luckily killed with 14 archers hitting on 5s! (!!!) and the other was chomped up by an eagle.

I ran: Dragon, bsb foot, lvl2, 30 spears, 2x14 archers, rbt, 3 eagles, 2 tiranocs, 6 dp, 20 lions
Empire had: 2x50 halberds, 2x12 archer skirmisher detachments, 2 cannons, master engineer, hellblaster, waralter + lector, lvl4 lvl1 lvl1 light, bsb foot, 3 demis, 5 of the stubborn knights, hurricanum.

In short, I was impressed with my tiranocs and spears. The spears blocked a charge to a chariot, held up the demis for the entire game on my weak flank and required his waralter to help and finally break them. the chariots ate hellblaster and cannon fire, and one survived even. I ended up taking out cannon/hellblaster/master engineer with eagle/chariot. The dragon could've been used a bit more effectively bit did alright. He ate the stubborn knights but took him two of my turns to do so. Then he rear charge halberdier horde fighting my white lions and with the dp wiped them out. I didnt kill that much (about 1400 ish) but because I lost so little (spears, chariot, eagles) The result was 800-900 difference, which is good enough for a 15-5 or 16-4. Against a 2 cannon/2 banishment list I'm happy with that. Speaking of the banishments I felt I got lucky here, turn 1 his lvl4 lost it due to a miscast. I did think I more or less had more luck then my opponent but in the end with the bulk of my points in the dragon, characters and white lions (and backline archers/rbt) unless he broke through I was always going to retain lots of points.

Personally I'm really looking forward to the flying chariots. I just hope they're not too expensive. Every time my measly 85pt chariots kill anything or distract a larger enemy unit or shooting they're doing their job. What I am considering is dropping my 6 dp with musician for 2x5 reavers. Sometimes the dragon has a good charge lined up and my opponent simply flees away. With eagles busy doing other stuff I dont have anything else fast enough to get around my opponents line and threaten units that want to flee away. I find DP just find ways to die. They attract a bunch of missile fire and will eat any anti armor thing your opponent has. Compared to chariots they have nowhere near their mobility, I can't move them behind cover fast, and often the only thing I can do is charge them forward. In this game I had to sacrifice an eagle to save them and they only had just enough movement to get out of another enemy unit's vision arc. The only combat they did all game was kill 4 halberdiers. Their other roles (running down a fleeing unit and threaten warmachines) could've been performed by reavers.

Regarding your bus list, it looks pretty good on paper. I've had issues with my own bus lists but then again I didn't have a dragon to support it. I guess what you want to get your dp in combat with are st3/st4 stuff that you can grind down after initial charge. I just don't feel comfortable with heavy cav. There are so many things that murder them, all of which are usually more mobile. Lions at least are st6 when charged and stubborn and have more wounds etc, which makes them more resilient to certain stuff that would eat DP. I might try it out sometime but I'm enjoying tiranocs too much right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Not posting alot on this forum, but I thought I should chime in on your core dilemma Curu. As you may have noticed at the club here in Trondheim I usually field LSG as part of my core and I have for the most part good experiences with them. At the moment my core for 2500p stands at 655p (a bit much but still) that includes 30 LSG with full command and 2 units of 10 archers with a musician in each.

This setup gives me 2 extra drops as well as a medium fire base to clear chaff with. Should I need it the LSG will advance in support of the elites and if I want to hang back they will still fire decently. I think this setup might be better than the 45 LSG one because it still gives you 20 range 30'' shots, more drops, more bunkers for your mage to hide in as well as a decent ranked combat unit to throw in with your swordmasters. It also gives you 5 more set of feet on the ground and in a helf army that can't be a bad thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:26 pm 
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I'd like to echo to stay away from the 45 man LSG block. Mainly because i think you would miss the extra archer units being able to clear some chaff to allow your DP block to get into the action!


Check out Five Finger Death Punch. hehe

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:07 am 
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@Lord Anathir - Thanks for the writeup! Seems like you're getting the hang of using your own version of the Dragonlord! I'm quite surprised at your effective use of Chariots to be honest, perhaps I have to consider these myself at some point ;)

As for the Reavers, I take your point about fleeing etc. Personally I haven't found this to be a problem as I very rarely take risky charges with the Dragon - I typically move him into a position where fleeing is downright suicidal. Also, with 4 more flying units I find that if this should happen, I have the option of force-fleeing him further.

The heavy cavalry - indeed I am a bit reluctant to go for this as well. My initial thoughts with heavy cavalry from previous lists were that good players tend to counter them. The question is how this context (WL horde, Star Dragon) affects that.

@Francis - the main problem is the ETC rules which restrict me to 45 shots. 45 Sea Guard split into 30 + 15 where the bigger has flame banner, full command and the smaller has a musician goes to 625 points sharp. I would love to have a block + archers, but it cannot be done: if you do not go pure Sea Guard, the points force you to take Spears.

@thelordcal - perhaps I haven't been very clear: in no way do I intend to use Sea Guard as a huge Seastar. It's all about the total models, I'm unsure whether to go 20-15-10 or 30-15 or something else. Rest assured, I will not try and make a Horde of Sea Guard work ;)

Will check out your band recommendation!

Today's the big Storm of Magic day and we've got 7500 points of Good lined up vs 7500 points of Evil! I assume it'll take all day, more or less, so hopefully I'll be able to come back tonight ;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:16 am 
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Didn't consider the ETC rules when I wrote that no. I must admit that a rule that places restrictions on LSG and archers seems a bit harsh but with repeatercrossbows out there I guess it's a reason it exists. In that case I think I would go for the 30-15 solution.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Curu, a unit of 15 LSG won't do you any good unless you have a msu army like swordmaster. You might as well take archers at that size and spoil yourself with commands, banners, etc. 30 LSG + 15 archers

I've been using LSG for a while and I find that optimal size was 25 so far. This allows for an additional 25 strong spear unit and a 10 archers. While you can have 45 shots in ETC, it is not mandatory. 35 shots can do. This allows to use spears first to provides R&F, and once they are spent, sending the LSG reserve in.

Also, I'd be surprised if you would be now looking for ways to break steadfast with rank and files? If it's simply to have an anvil, then you should keep the archers devoted purely to their job. Why not 30 spears and 30 archers ( Or two units of 15 archers) ? Do you really must have 45 shots ?

I think the last would be better, I don't know if I see LSG working for your list honestly. LSG shooting is rarely optimal as theses guys need to move around, keep a 5 wide formation most of the time, and have shorter range. If you field them, you must be ready to accept that in practice, you get about half missile output compared to an archers unit. View them as a strong spear unit that can deal with chaffs, have a stand & shoot and can provide half the output of an archer unit.

The way I personally use them is always as a rank and files reserve unit that doubles as a bunker for an AM with foloriath robes, thus enabling the unit to go in CC when it is time to do so. That would be once the spear unit is spent and can't provide rank and files to the bus. While they are in reserve, they take care of chaffs and make sure the General or BsB is positioned as best possible for the LD bubble. Rarely will they be out combat formation ( 5 wide ).

For me, it really depends if you plan to send them forward or not to assist your newly planned DPs in breaking steadfast. If they are meant to stay away in the rear, then you should use archers. Don't get me wrong, I am very pleased you are thinking on trying out theses guys :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:58 pm 
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If you want to go for Findolfin's solution you would have to put full command on the archers and either War Banner, Banner of Arcane Protection or Lion Standard on the LSG. War Banner gives you 625p in core sharpe, the other two gives you 630p.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Lord Anathir - Thanks for the writeup! Seems like you're getting the hang of using your own version of the Dragonlord! I'm quite surprised at your effective use of Chariots to be honest, perhaps I have to consider these myself at some point ;)



Yeah man. High Elves and DoC have since then fell to the dragon (massacres). I am a bit sad that my list won't be painted in time for the next book likely, such an immense job I am planning. Against the HE I had the dragon flank a block of lions 25 ish strong, and my spears flank them on the other side. I chomped them up pretty fast, with minimal return damage (opponent conceded before mop up). Against DoC I got a charge off on a LOC, chomped him up as well as flanking fiends/furies, combo charged 30 letters with herald with white lions and chomped them too. The drag does more then just kill, he has some defensive value in protecting the rest of the army, soaking up fire and denying space for opponent's fast elements.

But that said, the dragon really brought the fun back into HE for me, when before they were making me rage, which is one of the reasons I started dwarfs in the first place. I think I had some bad cannon/stone thrower related experiences when I tested the dragon early 8th edition.

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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:53 am 
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@Francis - I agree that the 45 missile shots blanket rule is highly unnecessary. I would much rather field all-Archer core with this list, and I can imagine a lot of other armies who would also be far from overpowered with >45 shots. Restricting the worst armies (Dark Elves, Ogres etc) would by far be enough.

@Findolfin - My belief is that with this army, a unit of Sea Guard will not be optimal regardless of size. However, as the rules limit me to 45 shots and I have to invest 625 points in core, I'm willing to try out an all-Sea Guard core. To do this, I have to take 45 of them. There is no middle ground with Archers because those points going into a banner to allow it will give me very little value, and no more shots. So, if I try this out it'll be exclusively Sea Guard. Note that I consider 45 shots mandatory because this is what I want my core to do. In my experience, there has never been a place for Spears in this list. I certainly tried them out in the start and argued for their usefulness, but it's evident that this current setup has way more use for firepower. Perhaps a Dragon Prince bus would change this (though I doubt it), but I intend to test these both in isolation, and, if I like them both, combined. At that point, we could consider and discuss core changes. For now however, 45 shots is written in stone.

Unit-size wise I've been thinking about 25+20 and 30+15. Changing between these two is not an overwhelmingly complex task and I'll just start out with one and try the other if I don't like the first. If you find 25 optimal, I guess I'll start here, with the standard deployment being 13 wide.

Breaking Steadfast, anvil, static roles. These are terms I'm really having problems with understanding why people are so obsessed with. I've yet to find breaking steadfast a problem, with the destructive power of the Lions + Dragon this hardly ever comes up. In fact, even before I started playing a Dragon list this was very rarely a problem. The concept of 'anvil' is completely unnecessary with our mobility + chaff in general and this list (with 5 flyers!) in particular. Assigning static roles to our core such as '5 wide most of the time' also make very little sense to me (as long as we're not talking about ~35 strong unit of Spears): Sea Guards and Archers usually want to shoot a lot first, then reform later. Matchups can of course change this, but the point is that they can hardly ever be said to do one thing most of the time.

@Lord Anathir - sounds like you had some good games :) It's really nice to see more people embracing the Dragon again and particularly with different builds as I think it adds a lot of diversity to both this forum and your opponents. I agree that it's a lot of fun to play with and although you'll lose a game every now and then due to a laserguided cannonball, it's really not as bad as most people think. Sure, you have a couple of truly horrible matchups, but so does almost every army.

Might I ask, what list changes have you made / do you intend to make given your last few games? Do you consider any current choices poor, or are you largely happy with their performance?

Yesterday we had a big Storm of Magic game at Rusty's place: 6 armies of 2000 points each (+500 bonus points worth of monsters and items) made for an epic 7500v7500 good vs evil showdown. I was intending to make a Battle Report about it and we'd even brought a proper camera to get pictures etc, however the way the game evolved it sadly wouldn't be worth the effort (I'll try and get some pictures up though, it's not often you get to see 15,000 points in play!). A quick run-down of the game:
- Evil wins roll-off for T1
- First magic phase is a huge 24v17
- They decide to go for Cataclysm Spells first (which I completely disagree with, but that's another story) and properly miscast with a Wizard on an Arcane Fulcrum...
- All Wizards on the board are turned to frogs (all characteristics go to 1, except for wounds, and all equipment stops working)
- Good T1 we use Wyssan's Weighted Dice (a magical item which allows you to manipulate all the dice rolls for a game turn) to turn all 1's into 5's (this applies to ALL dice rolls)
- At the start of our magic phase, we manage to turn up all but 1 or 2 of our Wizards from frogs, whereas Evil still have like 5 frogs (some truly odd dice rolls here)
- Given our magic superiority and Wyssan's Weighted Dice, we manage to cast Time Amok (you get an extra shooting phase...) with High Elves, Wood Elves and Dwarfs (remember - all rolls of '1' are turned to '5' automatically). The ensuing shooting phases see us blast away:
- A Dragon worth 300 points
- Chaos Lord on Disc with ~400 points worth of loadout
- Almost all their wizards
- A giant
- A bullstar of 18, including Slaughtermaster and BSB
- A central unit of Trolls, placed to safeguard a Fulcrum (which was now very exposed)
- 3 Mournfang
- Rock Lobber

When T2 started, evil conceded and we decided to play another game, though we had to decrease the points a little to manage (time-wise). This game saw everyone bring a few more wizards, so despite dropping from 2000+500 to 1200+300, we had the same amount of Wizards (!) on the table. This game was hugely dominated in the early turns as well, and as such no point in writing a report from (basically things just died even faster than they do in 40k - whether you had T7 7W or were 30 strong you'd mostly be gone in a single turn). One thing which was insane here was when the Hellcannon misfired - causing miscasts on all wizards on the table. This phase took an hour alone to work through, with the result being 75% dead Wizards.

Some lessons learned:
- Storm of Magic needs to be played BIG. Next time we're considering going 3x 3000 or even 3x 4000 (plus bonus points). Redundancy is a must, and space wasn't an issue at all (!), though we were playing on 8' x 4'.
- Some miscast results probably need to be houseruled. When the Hellcannon caused miscasts on everyone, the 8-9 result from the Rulebook occured a couple of times on each side and it was absolutely devastating
- BSBs and Generals are VERY important. Panic-affecting items and ItP units are also extremely important to consider
- Have LOTS of mages. At 1200 I fielded 3 (RGoH BSB)
- Cover a wide range of BRB Lores if possible, to make a lot of Flux results favourable
- 2+ ward vs fire, MR(1) and/or strong armour saves make for a very good fulcrum controller (Dwarf Runesmiths proved very good at this!)

It was tons of fun and I hope we can do it again and this time have the armies to truly get an epic game where at least some of the stuff lasts for more than 1 turn ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:34 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Lord Anathir - sounds like you had some good games :) It's really nice to see more people embracing the Dragon again and particularly with different builds as I think it adds a lot of diversity to both this forum and your opponents. I agree that it's a lot of fun to play with and although you'll lose a game every now and then due to a laserguided cannonball, it's really not as bad as most people think. Sure, you have a couple of truly horrible matchups, but so does almost every army.


The only changes I made was dropping 6 dp and bringing in 2x5 reavers, and the skeinsliver. I don't think DP are optimal in my style. I like being able to move sideways and come at people from their flanks, and DP can't really do that. They're not stubborn nor have static st6 like lions so I can't see the point in them. What my current army might have big problems with are dwarfs, and armies that have fast/hard hitty stuff + cannons, which is empire and ogres (mournfangs/gryphs + 2 cannons/ironblasters). I did fight empire but he had only 3 demis and 5 reiksguard, not 2x4 demis (or 3x6) that I see some people using. The Lions can take one unit yes, and the dragon another, but with cannons and his support units I think I'd have a tough time. I would have to outdeploy to stop him from allowing all 3 units to charge at once. And use terrain. In other words I'd have to play better. If my opponent is a good general I think I'd have a tough time.

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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Note that I consider 45 shots mandatory because this is what I want my core to do. In my experience, there has never been a place for Spears in this list. I certainly tried them out in the start and argued for their usefulness, but it's evident that this current setup has way more use for firepower. Perhaps a Dragon Prince bus would change this (though I doubt it), but I intend to test these both in isolation, and, if I like them both, combined. At that point, we could consider and discuss core changes. For now however, 45 shots is written in stone.


Quoting that specific paragraph because I know for you breaking steadfast means nothing. You also mention spears having no place in the list and 45 shots being mandatory.

With thoses 3 points set in stone, why LSG? They are foremost and before all: spears. What do you gain here by losing 6'' range if you are going to use the LSG as simple archers? Round 1, on top of the minus 1 for moving into range and a 12'' short range ( instead of 18'' ), any unit of 20+ will be losing volley fire after moving to get in range. You will be most of the time at long range and closer to the fight, making it harder to reform in time to a 5 wide formation. So far, your only justification was that they fit the 625 points core. I really don't think it's a valid reason, especially if thoses 45 shots are mandatory. I'd say take 45 archers and fill the rest with spears, will at least give you an extra chaff unit and the dedicated fire you seek. :wink:

I like LSG, and used them since I started, but I don't see them as simple archers, they are spears with a secondary weapon. As such, you cannot hope their 45 shots can match 45 achers.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:37 pm 
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He's trying to eliminate the ten elf unit of spears he's currently forced to take.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:37 pm 
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I dont see anything terribly wrong with 10 spears. They're a cheap screen/flanker/chaff/drop. Somewhere you can put your lvl2 and move the unit without having to worry about not being able to fire with them.

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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:14 pm 
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@Lord Anathir - I see your point about heavy cavalry and vulnerability with regards to lack of mobility. While heavy cavalry is perceived to be very mobile, I agree that this is easily dealt with by a good opponent sporting the right choices. However, I'm hoping that the Dragon will change the context so that doing this will be harder. I've found that this is the case for the Lions, which is one of the few reasons they can work in such a wide formation (I don't think I'd take a horde of them otherwise).

As for Dwarfs, Empire and Ogres being hard matchups - I completely agree. Do you think you can make any changes to mitigate this without giving up a lot of value in your other matchups?

@Findolfin - Breaking steadfast doesn't mean nothing, however it just isn't that vital. Providing static combat resolution is a completely different story though.

So - why even try LSG? They are, first and foremost, not Spears. All High Elf core is the same - they provide you with S3 melee attack. Other than that, Archers do the same at range, and Spears come with an armour save. Honestly, whether the unit throws out 10 or 20 S3 attacks hardly ever matters, compared to what they're fighting alongside. The 5+ could make a difference though, because it makes the unit vastly more resilient. As such, I view LSG as a different kind of Archer, one which trades range for increased survivability. Compared to 45 Archers + 10 Spears, these put more points into fewer units, making those fewer units tougher. Whether this is a good trade or not remains to be seen, but I think it's worth trying out.

@Tiralya - Precisely. They're a fairly expensive chaff unit, and although I've had some use for them I don't see it as an effective investment.

I will try and get the report against Empire up soon ;) I don't know when I have time for my next game, unfortunately.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:51 pm 
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An interesting discussion which is closely related to this blog - What is Optimality and Success - viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39386

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:32 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Lord Anathir - I see your point about heavy cavalry and vulnerability with regards to lack of mobility. While heavy cavalry is perceived to be very mobile, I agree that this is easily dealt with by a good opponent sporting the right choices. However, I'm hoping that the Dragon will change the context so that doing this will be harder. I've found that this is the case for the Lions, which is one of the few reasons they can work in such a wide formation (I don't think I'd take a horde of them otherwise).

As for Dwarfs, Empire and Ogres being hard matchups - I completely agree. Do you think you can make any changes to mitigate this without giving up a lot of value in your other matchups?


Basically, no. I just have to minimize the odds. Dwarfs at least will have flaming stuff. I can minimize by terrain, eagle screens, maybe range (against ogres and maybe dwarfs). I know from my own experience all the little things that can block a good cannon shot, namely the clause that states the cannon must see the point on the ground.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Ok, I'm not sure I agree quite yet, but then again I have loads more playtesting to do before I can give a proper answer here. As my list stands now, I feel that most armies can have a really hard time against me, the worst is probably Ogres which I don't know what I can do about (list-wise) just yet.

Battle report against Empire coming up soon!

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:41 pm 
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New Empire with a Dragonlord list? I can't wait to read this next one! I'm expecting you to trample the foe beneath you and burn any that flee from you! mwahahaha! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Here you go, The Silly Dragon:

:: Hold The Line! ::

The lists -

:: High Elves ::

Saerith with GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec, Star Dragon - 622
BSB Naenor with Sword of Might, HoF, Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Eagle - 208
Olannon with Level 2, Annulian Crystal - 175

Characters - 1005

30 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames - 365
15 Archers, Musician - 170
10 Spearelves - 90

Core - 625

26 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light - 450
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord w/Skeinsliver, Musician, STD w/Gleaming Pennant - 270

Special - 720

3 Great Eagles - 150

Rare - 150

Total - 2500

Empire

Wizard Lord with scroll, Lofe of Life (went with Swordsmen)
General with good armour save, on Griffon
Warrior Priest with stuff (went with Swordsmen)
Warrior Priest with stuff (went with Greatswords)
Captain BSB with stuff (went with IC Knights)

40 Swordsmen, FC with 10 xbows detachment
24 Greatswords, FC with 10 xbows detachment

10 Inner Circle Knights, FC
3 Demigryph Knights, FC

Cannon
Mortar
Cannon

Total - 2500

:: Pre-battle thoughts and deployment ::

I wasn't overly concerned with his list, which I regarded as relatively soft. I was a bit disappointed that there weren't more toys here, as I was really anxious to see what the book had cooked together. Also, the lack of some flexible elements meant that the synergic effects probably wouln't be maxed out (which I believe will be key to playing this book).

Nevertheless, I was ready to try the Dragonlord against a book I've never faced before (well, not since 6th ed. anyway!). We agreed to play by the rulebook, but elected to have SLoS (which is by far the most common at our LGS) instead of TLoS for determining vision.

Magic saw me get Shield and Fury, while he rolled a perfect Throne, Flesh, Regrowth and Dwellers:

Image

Having +2 to start, I won the roll-off and advanced at once!

:: High Elves T1 ::

Not much to this movement phase really, the West held back while all 5 flyers headed for cover where the cannons couldn't see them. The Lions go up full speed, threatening lots of Griffon advances. Both Archer units occupy the central hill, ready to fire at the big beast from the Imperial Zoo.

Magic gives us an 11v6 split but he rolls well and I only manage to get Shield on the Lions through his defenses.

Shooting does nothing as I fail to roll any 6's to wound.

Image

:: Empire T1 ::

His Griffon moves up to a very dangerous spot, and I'm trying to find out whether he's intending to flee me (causing a failed charge) or just what that move's supposed to do. Meanwhile the western cavalry thunder ahead and the infantry is slowly moving up. It's becoming very clear to me that his Greatswords made a big mistake by not entering the building, as they'll now spend several turns getting around it.

Magic is 12v8 and he starts with Throne of Vines on 4D6. I have no intention of dispelling this and let him have it. Flesh follows on 3D6 but he rolls '5', '5', '6', giving me a very hard choice. He's targeting it at the Swordsmen so I let it pass. The attempt at Dwellers fails to meet its casting value and so I discard all my dice.

Shooting sees his artillery kill a handful of Archers and a couple of Lions.

Image

:: High Elves T2 ::

The Lions declare a charge on his General and he... holds! Well, I'm not complaining but this is a pretty terrible move on his part. I make the roll and we're in. The Dragon moves to a central position, the Archers reform to 5x6 and an Eagle blocks his Swordsmen - setting up a juicy chance for me next turn. Olannon moves to the small Archers (diagram error here) and Naenor moves to a safe spot - just in range to give re-rolls to the Lions. The West continue to shuffle, awaiting the Empire strike force.

Magic is 8v5 and he prioritizes dispelling Shield, so I get both Fury on his Xbows (~5 dead) and Drain up. The Archers kill a single Great Sword and with that we go to combat:

The Lions show just how powerful ASF S6 is and kill the Griffon before he has a chance to do anything. The General strikes back but fails to impress me. He loses combat by a mighty 7 or so, but passes his test on Insane Courage!

Image

:: Empire T2 ::

He charges the blocking Eagle while the cavalry keep moving up. Magic is 5v5 and he casts Flesh to Stone on his General, which I fail to dispel.

The cannons finally have a clear line of sight to the Dragon, but it's of little help: the first one overshoots (he guessed 8" from the back and rolled a '10') while the other fails to bounce!

Combat sees his General fail his break test and I run him down, making it to the Xbows as well. The Eagle dies a noble death and I'm all but ready to teach him a thing or two about Elven Archers' close combat abilities.

Image

:: High Elves T3 ::

The charges are declared and he holds, obviously (it's a lot closer than it looks like, I think the Archers needed like 3+). The West is chaffed away, taking care to remove any possible overruns into the Swordmasters, who take up a flanking position should he choose to overrun and not reform. Naenor flies to help and the last Eagle makes ready to redirect the cavalry further, if need be.

Magic sees him dispel everything, the scroll coming out to stop Shield of Saphery.

Shooting is close to nothing and we're on to combat:
I breath fire and between all my attacks, he loses nearly half the unit (19 casualties if I remember correctly). In return, he kills a handful of Archers and fails to impress Faeria. Due to the Archers' ranks, he breaks and I run him down (this unit had his Wizard Lord and a Warrior Priest, remember!).

Image

:: Empire T3 ::

The Cavalry charge my Spears and Eagle. Magic is ineffective with his Lord gone, and again the Nuln-duo has a clear shot at Faeria: the first one hits and wounds the Dragon, scoring 3 wounds. Saerith luckily passes his 4+ ward. The second shot however misses again (not sure what happened). So - in 4 shots Saerith is unharmed and Faeria is only down 3W. Not too bad!

Combat sees his cavalry win easily and they both overrun, the distances rolled meaning the Swordmasters have an excellent domino-opportunity!

Image

:: High Elves T4 ::

I charge his Cannons and the cavalry while redirecting the Great Swords and setting up for some T5 annihilation.

Magic is low and he dispels my attempt at Fury. Shooting is equally useless and we go to melee: the cannons die easily and I reform Saerith to face center. The Swordmasters do what they do best, even though the captain makes way and they sport a 1+ armour save, I kill the Hero and a couple of Knights. They fail their break test, roll low and I pursue them down, overrunning into the Demigryph Knights.

Image

:: Empire T4 ::

He charges the blocking Eagle (my guess is he's getting tired of this!) and that's about it. He kills it but is now in a very poor spot... The Demigryph Knights suffer the same fate as the Inner Circle Knights, and Hoeth's Finest are now ~9 Elves strong.

Image

:: High Elves T5 ::

Saerith + Naenor + Archers engage his Greatswords and kill them all. With that, he has a handful of crossbowmen left and I have only lost 3 Eagles.

Image

:: Victory Points ::

This game was a clear massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation and Conclusion ::

My opponent was rather inexperienced and made lots of mistakes which I capitalized on with ease. When his artillery failed him as well his fate was utterly sealed. I was hoping for a stronger list and more skilled opponent, but at the same time it can be nice to have a slow start the first time you meet a new army. He plays High Elves as well, but I don't know how well he wields them relative to Empire.

As always, C&C very welcome :)

~Olannon

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Typing as I read ...

Greatswords look odd with the rest of the list. Not big enough for a great weapon unit. Combine with a big swordsmen block and cavalry, and he really lacks grinding power. Yet isn't Life awesome for grinding?

Shield and Fury is fine here, as Fury has an awesome target in the Griffon.

Deployment looks like a huge advantage, with his best combat units far far away. And you've draw the Greatswords wide, which is awful for a size 24 unit.


I don't see why you use your Eagle to block his swordsmen on turn 2. What are they going to charge that hurts you? Better to send at least one Eagle towards his artillery, to make him consider not shooting the dragon.
What was the plan with the White Lions charging the Griffon, for after they kill it? You put everything on the Griffon to ensure it died, and assume the General will break? Then run him down? Did you put anything on the General himself?

Insane Courage by his General might change things. But it shouldn't, because there is no threat to the White Lions nearby. I guess the swordsmen could charge in and kill some elves as they die. I definitely think you should have reformed the White Lions to shift further west once he held. For that matter, why did you not charge such as to get the White Lions as far west as possible?

Western forces still not present, General gone, White Lions past, and the swordsmen are about to get hit hard. But it is still early enough that if his cannons can kill the Dragon (and you have never threatened them), he can come back somewhat. Oh, but I forgot that the wizard lord is in the swordsmen, so losing him is really really bad.

With the cannons missing, and you then charging them, this looks to be over with.


Not much to say. He left first the Griffon and second the swordsmen all alone. He could have helped either with magic, but he targetted the wrong one both times. After clearing your chaff, he still let your Swordmasters flank his cavalry by overruning instead of reforming.
Unless the cannons had killed the dragon in their first shooting phase, he's doomed. And even with that the other mistakes probably give him a loss.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:17 am 
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Utter white wash Curu, well done. There isn't anything left to say. You're a master with this list and warhammer, truly you are.

Always an enjoyable read and I learn something or pickup something new to try next game everytime I read one of your reports.

Thanking you. :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:54 am 
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Well played Sir
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A Griffon vs a Dragon, like bringing a knife to gun fight, doable but you have to be smart.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:06 am 
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Thanks for the comments everyone :)

@dabber - I agree with you that he doesn't seem to have enough units/synergy to pull such an army concept off properly. I might be wrong though, perhaps it's just his tactics. I feel that the new Empire really need to get the elements working together, and as you noted I don't really see much use for his Greatswords here.

The Eagle block on T2 was to prevent him from slaying my Archers too early. It was a lot closer than it looked. Due to the one-sided nature of the report I didn't bother with too much details in the report, but I see now that I should've taken a bit more care to detail this more precisely.

The plan with the Lions was to just take down the general really. Though he's not as strong as the Dragon, he's easily capable of causing lots of damage in my back ranks. I put all my attacks on the Griffon. While this is overkill, I was fairly confident that killing it was paramount and that I could either break the General (rank + charge + banner + wounds) or take care of him later.

Position of Lions - I can't remember how I placed them. I doubt he had an opportunity to counter-charge me though.

Though the list is fairly weak, I think you identified the main mistakes which ultimately lost him the game. First of all I don't understand his aggressive nature. With 3 artillery pieces and 20 xbows he's got ranged superiority (not to mention Dwellers!) and should play more defensively and compact I think.

@Jimmy - thanks for the kind words. I would hesitate to call myself a master now because I feel there's so much more I can improve with regards to my game and Warhammer in general. I think that when I'm paired against a relatively inexperienced player though that mistakes are few between and hard to notice, because the game is more about me exploiting his mistakes and him trying to counter me than the other way around (a game between me and rusty for example is way more back-and-forth).

When do you intend to return to the Asur? Have you got any thoughts about what kind of a list you'd field?

@Elessehta of Yvresse - while I have lots of Archers here, it's arguably not a terrible matchup for the Griffon. He played it very poorly though, I believe he should've used is a counter-charger or maybe a flanker/disrupter. As it turned out, he really just gave me it for free. I think there are few targets, if any, who are more optimal targets for the White Lions than this.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:40 am 
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dabber recently played a game on Universal Battle using a former version of this list against a rather tough Daemons of Chaos army, featuring a massive 60-strong Bloodletter horde. I strongly suggest you check it out if you find my reports interesting by clicking this link clicky

As promised, some pictures from our Storm of Magic madness:

Team Evil's centre is anchored by a unit of Trolls and a massive unit of Bulls
Image

High Elf Archers and Wood Elf Forest Spirits prepare to defend as a Black Dragon approaches
Image

The western flank is a complete monster-mash
Image

A Great Fire Dragon and High Elf White Lions make a decisive move to secure Good's eastern flank
Image

Powerful magic and shooting has forced the Bulls to flee, allowing the Longbeards and Treekin to secure the centre
Image

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:47 pm 
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I <3 pictures, but one thing, you're drinking water? Is this allowed? Water? Is this a Norwegian thing? =P

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Haha good catch there, we started ~11 AM and believed we would play until ~11 PM and most of us were driving. I wish it were possible to meet up somewhere and have beers and games, but unfortunately it's rather hard to accomplish due to the sheer distances here, unless you wanna spend ages taking the bus etc.

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