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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:41 am 
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The pictures don't show your vanguard movement, I know you don't need to use it but it's so handy for bluffing or getting to the back line quickly. Do you plan on only using it sometimes?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:06 pm 
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It is not clearly shown on image but you can see how far ahead of the heavy cavalry they are, and that’s because of the vanguard move. Vanguard and free reform was one of my main point to use them since they can easily threaten back lines and flank. That and fact they are cheapest cav around to give me some sort of mounted rank and files unit.

This also enable me to support heavy cavalry long charge with a combined flank charge, making it more probable to break some ennemy units on the charge. The 14 Reavers insure that I should break steadfast at 2 ranks and disrupt ennemy ranks for CR.

Short answer : I always plan to use it :P

PS : When using the vanguard, you need keep them within 12’’ of the BsB and/or General since theses guys are likely to draw ennemy fire and check for panic. Having LD10 general is really important for me, hence the Dragon Princes banner of discipline. If reduced beyond 10+, they did their duty in protecting the heavy cavalry and will switch to plan B which is going straight for warmachine or doing redirection.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:10 am 
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Had a team game Friday, High Elves and Empire vs Chaos Warriors and Beastmens.

I won't go in details on what chaos and empire had, as I was mainly facing Beastmens.

High elves:
I went with a mix of last 2 proposed drafts, thanks to scenario rule were we had a free magic banner.
BsB Armored steed, GW, Helm of fortune, amulet of light, 6+ ward
High Archmage , Robes, Annulian Crystal, Gem of fire. ( Drain, Shield, Curse, Fury and Vaul's )

28 spears, FC
24 LSG, FC

9 Silver Helms , musician
10 Dragon Princes, FC, Banner of Sorcery, charmed shield, luck stone
7 Reavers, Bow, mu
7 Reavers, Bow, mu
15 Reavers, Spears, FC
RBT
RBT

Beastmens : Approximatively
Beastlord with brasscleaver and whatever
Shaman lvl 2
Shaman lvl 2

5 Scaled Hound
40 Ungor
40 Ungor
20 Gor
20 Gor
40 Bestigors
3 Minotaurs
1 Gorghon
1 Chaos Spawn
1 Tusk Chariot
20 Chaos Warriors, shield and mark of khorne from ally with BsB

The elven forces are escorted by allied Kyslevites after retrieving the Horn of Isha for Lady Letitia. As they are resting into the small village of Red wood they are suddenly assaulted by a powerful chaos force. The village is soon encircled and the allies prepare for the last stand...

DEPLOYMENT:
Image

Things don't start too well, my ally don't want to let me deal with the chaos warriors as we had initially agreed. Furthermore, once chaos deploy his knights, he insist on placing his great swords on the right wing were they have no chance to come to my help if needed.

On my side, I decide to keep the LSG in reserve knowing the enemy have no shooting, My spears stay near the general LD10 thanks to banner and ready to support the helms and BsB against the Chaos Warriors. Dragon Prince face the ungors, I am hoping to get trough them before Bestigors can do anything about it. My reavers are deploy on the left to get in their flanks fast. It's not perfect but I think it's an alright deployment for me. Less so for my ally...

Magic is to be one common pool for both allies, which I really really don't like, and will learn to curse about later on as my ally insist on wasting half the dices with his lvl 2 mage and his priests... n-e-v-e-r again. If I don't mention some magic phases later , it's because it was not relevant. Same goes with shooting, which was a long string of 1 and 2s...

Chaos goes first:
Image

Typical all out advance and a failed early ( and illegal charge ) from the hounds on my reavers, who S&S down 2 of them. They pass the test.

Hellcanon shoots, direct hit on the empire canon... destroying it. I never faced that thing and kinda taken aback. St 10 / 5 template causing multiple wounds in centre and forcing panic test with -1 LD. Kinda sick.

As if it was not a bad start for us, Beastmen ungor and gor reinforcement both appears on my table edge, what were the odds? I now have 2 blocks in my back lines.

High Elves 1st turn:
Image

Empire moves up, I don't pay too much attention but I fear he is already within their charge range.

My Helms and spears hold for now, it is still too long a charge and I don't want to be in range of chariot , ghorgon and spawn. I am confident I have sufficient fire power to dwindle their number first. I reform the dragon Princes and one unit of reavers to deal with the new threat. My big reavers make their march test and are now threatening the bestigor's back. I protect the Dragon Prince with the other reavers to block remaining wolves.

This last move is a big mistake as I did not align them correctly and the dragon princes did not need any protection from the wolves even in flank. They can't flee or they will end out of the table going trough 2 units. I did however check the distance from the gorghon and he needed a double 6 to make it. So no real worries there, eh..?

Beastmens 2nd turn:
Image

So the beastmen declare his charges. Remaining wolves charge the reavers, I stand and shoot. Then he says: "Gorghon charge reavers, make terror test". I forgot about that and he had nothing to lose to try it. Reavers make the test and hold. Now, you guessed it by the picture... a 6 and a 6... he makes the charge and I know what will now follow.

Chaos makes 3 long charge into the empire right wing, the warriors having some sort of +1 movement banner or bonus of some kind. Empire hold but it does not look too good there either.

Hellcanon score another hit, this time in my spears, taking almost half the unit. I learn the Chaos Warrior BsB in front sports a banner giving a -1 LD to everyone in line of sight. Spears panic despite my BsB and there goes my Helm's R&F support. Reavers flee out of the table despite killing all wolves hoping to get more CR. Gorghon overrun into the Dragon Princes.

High Elves turn 2
Image

It's pretty obvious things are starting to go very badly. I am pretty much forced to charge the Helms on their own at this point into the Spawn, and I gamble with the reavers flank charge on bestigors. I am thinking at that point that he can fail a LD 9 test and his BsB is not in range, being with the gors. I need to provoke something fast or I will lose.... ( first mistake, as thinking about losing do make you lose ). I should have cleared past the ungors... Empire makes 3 charge in the center but Ghors and Marauders manage to hold with heavy losses.

Magic does see Vaul's get trough and I remove that damned banner. Shooting does manage to finish off Chariot and wolves, also take out some gor ambushers.

CC, Chaos Knights kill the free company detachment to the last men, reforming to face the Greatsword flank. Dragon Princes fight valiantly, losing 3 and inflicting 2 wounds. They hold but fail their combat reform roll. Helms Kills the spawn on the spot and overrun into the chaos warriors. The reavers manage 6 kills and receive only 2 in return, winning by 6 thanks to rank disruption!

But his general had made way, now announcing his brass cleaver and delivering 7 attacks, also passing Primal fury test, killing 6 reavers outright. I lost my 2nd rank so cannot disrupt his ranks anymore, now losing big time. Reavers flee, losing the standard bearer, bestigors hold. 5 reavers remaining. I did not plan for that character having so many attacks...

Beastmen 3rd turn
Image

Hellcanon hits again, killing 15 LSG on the spot. Archmage Laetitia manage the panic test. 10 remains and there goes my flank charge hopes on that Gorgon. Gors fail their charge but minotaurs and ungor keep on advancing. Knights hit the Greatsword flank but they still hold tough it is clear they are losing badly.

Dragon Prince and Drake Master puts some 2 more wounds on the gorgon, losing 2 knights in return. Musician breaks the tie. That thing being stubborn on 10, pass it's test...

Sir Lorik, High elf BsB is locked in a deadly duel with the ennemy BsB. 3 hits! But he manages to do only do 1 wound, thanks to snake eyes on 2 of them. As it happens, High elves win the CR but Chaos warriors holds thanks to their reroll... Bestigor now threatens the helms flank.

High elves 3rd

Image

About 15 Spears makes a long charge into the ungors, I figure I have good chances to break them despite steadfast since they are LD 7. Reavers advance to block the bestigor flank charge.

CC, High elf BsB finally slay the chaos warrior BsB but the chaos warriors hold, grinding some more helms. Empire finally breaks trough the center but the right wing totally collapse before the free company makes it into combat to add their ranks to the fight. Spears manage to win their CR and overrun the ungor block who failed their test!

Beastmen 4th
Image

Hellcanon miss Knights but scatter to destroy the free company detachment who flee. Prince, who had been banished down couple of wounds and was hiding, now charge to pin the halberds. Chaos Knight run trough the last detachment. Gors ambushers move in the gap toward RBTs.

Only 1 Dragon Prince and Drake Master are left after the minotaurs charge but they hold again. Reavers stand their ground to save the helms, and die to the last... Bestigors reform to face the helms flank again. Silver Helms manage to win again their CR, down to half their strenght, and chaos warriors fails their steadfast roll, promptly run trough but overunning into the ungor.

High elves 4th

Image

Empire Knights charge Hellcanon, Vaul's get trough and remove brass cleaver.
In CC, Knights fails to kill the Hellcanon ( I need to read the whole thing, it seemed way overpowered all game long but I guess it's that ). Halberds can't get rid of Daemon Prince, Silver Helms don't manage to break the ungor...

Drake Master finally slay the Gorgon, the last Dragon Prince fall under minotaurs onslaught but Drake Master charmed shield and luckstone save 2 hits, enabling to flee with his life!!!

Beastmen 5
Image

This turn seals the deal for the helms, leaving only the BsB alive and locked in duel after the rear charge. Chaos troops postion themselves. Empire Knights can't kill the Hellcanon.

High elves 5
Image

Shooting is a long string of 1s, as it was most game ( I have a picture of one of those rolls ) Hellcanon still alive, Halberds combat reform 5 wide to gain ranks, face knights and block warriors path toward empire knights or rear charge. An interesting tactic and valiant effort. Drake Master rallies on insane courage! He reforms at angle to face minotaurs.

Beastmen 6
Image

We hoped at least to kill the hellcanon. It was not to be. Halberds get killed by Knights, Prince and warriors. Knights overrun into Empire Knights and gets to fight in that next CC, killing them too... One RBT is destroyed. Minotaurs fluff their charge, Drakemaster had hold to protect mage so he gets to live at least for his valiant effort. We obviously concede the game at that point, tough you could say it was obvious 2 turn ago.

I'll comment later and add some photos, but I will at least say I learned alot more in defeat than my last games. We tried and we tried until the end. I did made some mistakes but our opponents could not help but mention we had simply no luck on our side.

Another factor was the miscommunication between my ally and me, and having most of the time half the dice I should have to work some magic. Overall, magic had almost no impact in the game from both side when it was one of my main weapon.

Admittedly, I got desperate to turn things around once the disaster began, but that hellcanon was tearing my rank and files apart and without them to break steadfast, I could not let my helms be on the receiving end of a charge. I don't know what I could have done differently once that Gorgon made that fateful charge on boxcars...

Well, there it is, my first lost since I started 8th edition warhammer. That's what I get for stretching the all cavalry concept to the limit! #-o

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:36 am 
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Well played Sir
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Getting aid from men? Silly Findolfin =P

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:50 pm 
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I am going to prepare for my first comped tournament next month, so I’ll try to analyse what worked and what did not, hopefully getting a stronger list ( and maybe some comments? ).

Units of 7 reavers: I thought it would help them perform more roles and retain a full rank longer, and perhaps survive when used as a road block. They did survive with a few bodies left when holding to block the charge but It was not very helpful when accounting for insane courage rule. So, while the 2 units of 7 reavers did their duty perfectly, 5 would have done as well so I’ll go back to that size.

Unit of 15 reavers: I asked too much of them on their own but was not of that Beastmen Lord 7 rerollable attacks, they had actually won the CR against that bestigor horde. That horde was also down to 3 ranks, and reavers had 2 before that. As crazy as it sounds, I think a unit of 20 reavers would have good chances of breaking steadfast trough a flank charge, which I really did not have troubles to pull off with them.

The silver helms and BsB. Well, theses I use since my beginnings and given they had no support whatsoever, they still proven very reliable. They did take out a chaos spawn and a full unit of chaos warrior with the Chaos BsB and a Chaos wizard.

The Dragon Princes. They did prove to be extraordinary resilient in the poor circumstances they were thrown in. The empire greatswords had already crumbled before the drakemaster finally was forced to back down. However, despite their numerous attacks, it did not cut it ( pun intented ). These guys need a character as much as the silver helms to protect get them through the grind, unless maybe the champion receives the sword ‘’foe bane’’.

Elven bows / RBTs: Frankly, outside of taking out some very weak units like chaff, they are a total turn off. I played enough games to get fed up with theses toothpicks. I made no mention of it in the report but I had about 100 shots into theses bestigors, curse of the arrows on them most of the time, and by the end they were still 25 strong... Most of the casualties were done by the RBTs and even theses were a real let down. Nothing new there for elven players reading this I guess.

The Spears: Theses guys did their duty. Half of them killed by a Hell Cannon, still 15 of them took out a 40 strong ungor horde by themselves. Unfortunately, the Chaos player recognised the rank and file role they were going to do along the silver helms. Theses and the LSG were prime targets. LSG did not got to perform, reduced to 9 + Archmage in same fashion. They ended performing as archer bunker.

High magic: what a let down... my opponents laughed at all spells except for Drain Magic and Vaul’s. Granted, I did not roll flames of phoenix. Still, it felt like a powerless life magic with no throne of vines to protect you when going for doubles 6. Ring of Corin however now looks like a great option.

Banner of sorcery: Can’t help but feel I could have used the banner and standard bearer costs to better uses. That or High magic does not makes the best of it.

Annulian Crystal: Well, now that one was good. Not much for the extra dispel dice but mostly for getting to ask my opponent their own dice. It irritated them as they systematically tried to forget about it each round. Of course, was my pleasure to remind them :)

Archmage: Well... what about no? I am more and more inclined to decline. She seems overly overpriced for what she does and I am considering simply the level 2 mage. Ok, might be severe here, she did at least do her job as a General with discipline banner, granting LD10 throughout the fight. Still, I could get a noble to do that on top that lvl 2 mage for about same price.

I'll submit another format for the army based on the above, it's kinda of a challenge to make it work without the elite infanty :P

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:36 am 
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Quote:
I think a unit of 20 reavers would have good chances of breaking steadfast trough a flank charge, which I really did not have troubles to pull off with them.


This. Would. Be. Hilarious.

Just keep in mind a disrupted unit still counts its ranks for steadfast purposes, but I assume you mean that a 20 strong reaver unit with 2-3 ranks after combat can break units steadfast, which isn't a bad bet if you can make it to combat without taking many casualties.

I've been painting up new reaver models and I badly want to try a larger unit out. 17 points for a reaver isn't bad at all, especially if supported by some magic.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Arhain wrote:
Quote:
I think a unit of 20 reavers would have good chances of breaking steadfast trough a flank charge, which I really did not have troubles to pull off with them.


This. Would. Be. Hilarious.

Just keep in mind a disrupted unit still counts its ranks for steadfast purposes, but I assume you mean that a 20 strong reaver unit with 2-3 ranks after combat can break units steadfast, which isn't a bad bet if you can make it to combat without taking many casualties.

I've been painting up new reaver models and I badly want to try a larger unit out. 17 points for a reaver isn't bad at all, especially if supported by some magic.


Hehe, that would be the idea indeed about steadfast. Good thing about fast cav is even at 20, their size don't affect their movement and manoeuvers much since they can free reform at will.

And yes, thoses reavers new models are really gorgeous, I have 4 done out of 5 for april painting challenge ( see painting and modelling forum ). Got alot of painting to do to finish my army. Cav models are way longer to do than infantry but then funnier too. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Hey Findolfin!

Is your tournament by any chance the "Arena" tournament in Montreal next month? Me and couple of my friends are considering making a trip over there for that one.

D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Working at the moment on that new list as I try to adress "grinding" issues and get rid of much shooting.
Nothing set in stone so far, particularly as far as character gear goes, as I'd like at least a lv2 and maybe some more special items than amulet of light. Really not sure about the RGoH. I'll be revisiting that.


Prince GW, barded steed, dragon armor, Radiant Gem, Vambrance of Defense
BSB GW, barded steed, dragon armor, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix
Noble GW, barded steed, heavy armor, dragon helm, amulet of light, dawnstone
Mage lvl 1, ring of fury, silver wand
25 spears FC, eternal flame banner
25 spears FC
10 archers, mu
9 silver helms, mu, standard bearer
9 silver helms, mu
9 silver helms, mu
1 Tiranoc Chariot
18 reavers, FC, spears only

Adding a heavy cavalry and a character to each of those 3 should mitigate the counter effect of being charged like it happened in last game, also helping the grind following a failed shock and awe charge. In all my games, the sturdiness of theses units against overwhelming odds was never in doubt.

Upgraded to 18 reavers, in attempt to have the 3 ranks after CC. This should be sufficient as long I don’t charge the enemy main unit ( I know... ). I also have to deal with the fact I have 50 cavalry models overall, chariot horses included.

Speaking of which, chariot is back, and will be probably be a better answer combined with spears than having to divert one of my main unit to deal with situations like those beastmens ambushers units.

I will be trying without the LSG. I like them but I really lost faith in strength 3 shooting so it will be 2 units of 25 spears. I take the 10 archers as a small mage bunker, kill chaff and fill core requirement.

I lose also the 2 smaller reavers unit, so not much in redirection departement. If worst come to worst, chariot can always try accomplish that role and the big unit of reavers will later on do that job too once it's number dwindled.

I could have used more commands, standards in particular but it is a stretch point wise. I don't know how much the rbts will be missed but if like last few games, not that much.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Hey Findolfin!

Is your tournament by any chance the "Arena" tournament in Montreal next month? Me and couple of my friends are considering making a trip over there for that one.

D



And yes Brewmaster, it is in Montreal so probably the same tourney :P

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:20 am 
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Ye gads that looks awesome, a character in each of those SH buses is going to be awesome, not to mention the 18 Light Cav...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:02 am 
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Somehow, I missed those Reavers the first time. I really like the setup. I feel with the lack of shooting and magic you may be more vulnerable to chaff. I was going to suggest LSG...

This seems awesome. I'd suggest Annulian Crystal though, but that deprives you of one reliable magic missile.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:06 am 
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Personally, I believe you have the wrong approach here. Basically, when you build a list around speed, you need hitting power per frontage. Examples of lists that do this well:
- Bloodthirster (50mm frontage) with virtually any kind of backup (I'm a sucker for Fiends with M10)
- Dragons (50mm frontage) backed up by cavalry, chariots or horded elites
- Vampire Counts' character bus (usually 125mm frontage with LOTS of hitting power)

The thing is that you seem to be going for a bit of both worlds here, splitting up your damage potential and not really achieving the high power per frontage needed to make this work well. Let's take a look at your list and try to preserve the basic idea while making it into a proper cavalry list:

Prince GW, barded steed, dragon armor, Radiant Gem, Vambrance of Defense
BSB GW, barded steed, dragon armor, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix
Noble GW, barded steed, heavy armor, dragon helm, amulet of light, dawnstone
Mage lvl 1, ring of fury, silver wand

I'm not sold on the Radiant Gem. I'd rather upgrade the Lvl 1 to a level 2. Also, I believe A.C is way better than Ring of Fury since you need defense more than offense.

The 3 fighting characters make little sense the way they are now. First of all, you have lots of points left from lords, so there's no reason not to upgrade the second Noble to a Prince. Make one of the tanky (stubborn can also be nice):
Prince - GW, Vambraces, Dragonhelm
Prince - Helm of Fortune, Crown of Command, GW
Noble - BSB Banner of The World Dragon (with full command you can put the BSB in the second rank, with the command + princes filling in the front)

So you now have a setup where your power per frontage is pretty impressive indeed!

25 spears FC, eternal flame banner
25 spears FC
10 archers, mu

I'm not sold on the small units of Spears. I'd much rather go for the conventional 35 + 12 + 12 here, or 40+10+10. Is there a reason in particular why you deploy 2x 25 Spears?

9 silver helms, mu, standard bearer
9 silver helms, mu
9 silver helms, mu

See my first point. Combine these into a bus (12 strong, either DP or SH) and maybe a support unit (5 DP).

1 Tiranoc Chariot
18 reavers, FC, spears only

Chariot's fine, perhaps 2 is better even since they're so good at supporting a bus. As for the Reavers, I'd split them up.

Have you considered Eagles?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Hi guys, thanks for the comments! Curu, I’ll try to answer point by point.

- Crystal, yes it is an option I considered. The ring idea was to provide a reliable missile as Marwynn mention, either way it’s a trade off but ring and silver wand saves me the lvl 2 upgrade points.

- RGoH, I am not sold either as I mention. I was thinking along the line of using him to channel extra dices and toyed with changing gear so he can have staff of solidity to safely cast Beast lore sig or if lucky, the +3A/ 3S one. I am still not sure, Crown of command was certainly the best alternative.

- For the eagles, they have no place in my army. There is an irrational reason about that I explain in the beginning of my blog but the rational point is a bit the same reason why I went away from small unit of 5 reavers or 5 dragon prince. I feel they can’t achieve much by themselves except as redirectors sacrifice and war machines, small unit hunters. Basically, I am not a fan of fielding chaffs, this list is about smashing trough ennemy lines, not delay them with sacrifice lambs.

- Power per frontage, you are right, this is not optimal but it is not suboptimal either. I could combine characters into one bus as you mention but that would leave me with just one “star” unit, rather than 3 still effective units. Having one single battle unit is not something I fancy. I like a proper battle line and 1 single unit won’t do. Now I think of it, in my first warhammer game, as you see in the big friendly tourney pics at begininng of thread, I was actually fieilding a single bus with 3 characters and 15 helms, 6 wide on 3 ranks. It did smash trough anything it faced but the rest of my army was badly battered , surviving only thanks to book of Hoeth and life archmage. So it did worked but left me with no control over the rest of my battleline, hence I steadily reduced size of my unit ( I did try smaller 8 helms unit too vs empire, see report ).

So why the reavers, and 2x25 spears? They are there to address the problem you mention above. I gather from your thread you don’t believe in breaking steadfast but this list fall back on that principle if the initial shock and awe fails to break enemy lines. Theses 3 units are there to provide rank and files to my 3 silver helm bus to break steadfast. So 25 is plenty enough as they are not meant to be anvils, but rather a combined arm.

In a good scenario, spears and helms will hit as one in a frontal charge, paired together. It is possible spears can’t make the first charge in a bad scenario but helms can normally hold until they join , that’s if they don’t break the enemy on the charge. The chariot is there to back either units. I do not have more chariot models unfortunately, having multiple of theses is something I considered as per your suggestion.

- Reavers also can accomplish the rank and file support with their number but with added benefit of a flank/rear charge with disruptive power. They could even fight in 3 different CC should the whole ploy work perfectly. They also offer more traditional roles if need be.

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To resume, In my experience with silver helm bus, a single character was normally more than enough. I tried enough with them to finally accept Seredain's analysis that 10 is the optimal size for them. They can choose their battle and a 2+ save means they are very resilient. I’ve seen them trough minotaurs, ogres and lastly trough a Chaos warrior unit with BsB + Mage. They are way underestimated.

For characters, a second Prince would be very nice, but let’s say I under equip them both, it is still about 70 points more on the price tag that can only be gained by sacrifying chariot. I am already struggling to get a lvl 2 mage. More to consider, If such a point allotment was made possible, I think investing them in an Archmage would be more sound than upgrading one of the nobles. I could in fact drop the prince for a third noble and Archmage in such a case but losing leadership 10. It still is hard to fit in tough, also third noble is kinda weaker due to no armor reroll item left.

Sorry for the wall of text, there was several questions in there, hope I answered some. :) I do appreciate the input, and the draft certainly is'nt final, characters in particular. I am also at a loss as far as what magic lore to go for.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Alright, I think I get your point: you want to make MMU work and depend on lots of synergy. I've never seen this seriously attempted with HE and I don't believe it can be done to be honest. Sorry for the negativism here, I hope it doesn't put you off or anything but the simple fact is that successful mmu armies (e.g. Daemons, Dark Elves) have some broken options and combinations which we don't (examples include, but are not limited to: pendant of goodgame, sacrifical spearelves, cauldron of uberbuff, S5 KB core, 150pt loremasters, siren song).

With that being said, if you really want to go for it you are completely relying on setups to carry you through. Bear in mind that my analysis is based off of players who are very skilled and field tough armies: in friendlies you can basically make anything work so the analysis there is completely different.

I think you need one unit which can really put on the hurt. To really capitalize on this, I would take an extremely killy Prince (think Seredain's build) and Dragon Princes instead of Silver Helms. While not a star as such, this will be your most important unit when it comes to engaging the really tough parts. Similarly, I believe you need a resilient unit, e.g. a Prince with Vambraces or Crown of Command. That unit's role will be to tie up the enemy virtually indefinitely. This can be hugely useful against armies like Skaven, Orcs and Vampire Counts.

Bearing in mind all your replies and thoughts, how about something like this:
Prince seredain build
Prince tough build
BSB - stuff
Lvl 2 High Magic A.C.

2x25 Spears
10 Archers

9 SH (tough prince here)
9 DP, FC (killy prince here)
9 SH (bsb here)
X Reavers (however many you have points for)
1 Chariot

With regards to Steadfast, it's not that I don't believe in breaking it: I don't believe in the necessity of breaking it. In all my games thus far, do you see anyone where steadfast is game-breakingly preventing me from doing what I want to? I believe most people hugely overrate this rule, especially since virtually any army has access to a stubborn unit and the crown of command anyways.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:36 pm 
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No negativity felt, this list is for sure hard to play and all cavalry is not optimal to begin with. My last game was a perfect exemple on how things can go wrong. But you do now seem to get what I aim for, and I think it will work out in the end. :)

About breaking steadfast, let's say I view it as a plan B. I normally should be able to choose what I wish to engage or not, and on what terms thanks to superior movement. So while the frontal charge is the direct way, if faced with stubborn troops I should likely adapt my battle plan. The first aim should remain to break units on the initial charge.

Above list you proposed is indeed going in the right direction but computing it at 2500, I am left with less than 100 points for the reavers, and that's with no magic banner / items on the DPs FC. Only way to do it is to drop reavers completely. :?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:19 am 
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Hi Findolfin!

A very interesting army and unique concepts here. I really like the emphasis on cavalry too! Many don't believe in them since they cannot break units as easily as they used to do but I think you have some good ideas to make them do their job. And somehow I believe that breaking the enemy in 2 turns rather than on the charge (due to grinding abilities of characters) can be beneficial too. If you can pull out that ideal situation with reavers then it would be a great sight indeed!

The only change I would make is to get rid of RGoH on Prince. It is a nice addition and works great if you have level 4 caster too. Otherwise you might find that you don't have enough dice to break through magical defenses of the enemy. In the case of your fast cavalry army, which wants to be on combat as soon as possible you might only need some magical defenses on your own.

When is the tournament you want to attend? Do you plan to have some practice games in the meantime?

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:33 pm 
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I like your army. I`ve found that cavalry busses are fun to use, but they have to be used carefully. That`s why I give my prince the crown of command. It makes the bus much more reliable. Have you considered giving the spearmen the +1 movement banner? Then they can keep up with the cavalry and give rank bonus where needed. I would also combine the two spearmen units into one unit (about 35 spearmen), and get more archers. It`s important to kill the enemy baiting units. You could also get more chariots and use them to kill the chaff.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Thanks guys!
Chayal wrote:
I like your army. I`ve found that cavalry busses are fun to use, but they have to be used carefully. That`s why I give my prince the crown of command. It makes the bus much more reliable. Have you considered giving the spearmen the +1 movement banner? Then they can keep up with the cavalry and give rank bonus where needed. I would also combine the two spearmen units into one unit (about 35 spearmen), and get more archers. It`s important to kill the enemy baiting units. You could also get more chariots and use them to kill the chaff.


Yes, I did consider that banner, It`s definitely a viable choice. But eternal flame banner is hard to be without :(

For archers, I wanted to do the contrary initially with 3 x 20 spears, Fc and 1 with banner of eternal flame. :P Right now, archers exist only and solely for mage bunker in this army, and because I did not figured out yet how to fit in the Foloriath robes. The spears in this army are only there to provide ranks and files in support of cavalry busses. They should not be counted on as anvils ( Still, 15 of them did broke 40 ungors in my last game :P ).

Also, there is little chaff can do against armored cavalry except being a speed bump. But yes, I need to address how much threath chaff can really pose, my gut feeling being that it`s actually the archers being the most exposed it.

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Hi Findolfin! The only change I would make is to get rid of RGoH on Prince. It is a nice addition and works great if you have level 4 caster too. Otherwise you might find that you don't have enough dice to break through magical defenses of the enemy. In the case of your fast cavalry army, which wants to be on combat as soon as possible you might only need some magical defenses on your own.


Ya, I think the mere mention of RGoH implies I am forced to make compromise. I don`t see it as a great choice. You are right that with an AM, it would at least help alot for the spell selection. It will be probably replaced by crown of command.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
When is the tournament you want to attend? Do you plan to have some practice games in the meantime?


Looks like it will be this one. Some friends are going to attend and I believe Brewmaster was thinking about a trip from neighboring province.

http://arena-montreal.com/

It`s end of may, Practice would be nice but I am also short on free points with wife, time is a precious resource these days. I am also concerned by the 3 colors painted army requirement and particularly, the WYSIWYG thing.

Not too sure how they proceed but my reavers got spears & bows, while I am using spears only. Some of my Dragon Princes will be posing as Silver Helms. Nothing really confusing but don`t know how hardcore they are about it all. Sure would be a tough job to meet all the above in time. I can try at least finish all front ranks and 3 bases colors on the rest of army. Not great, I know. On the other hand, I don`t expect winning my first tourney, mostly gathering experience and having fun :P

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:33 pm 
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I haven`t found regeneration to be a problem, but if you really want the flaming banner I would give it to a unit of dragon princes. I wouldn`t use it on spearmen as they are very weak against the regenerating units (hydra, abomination etc).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Hey man!

Like the army idea. I agree flaming banner on a small ish unit of princes (6 or so) is golden! I have been running something to that effect for a while, and I absolutely love it. They are strong enough to run through a hydra before it can attack thanks to re rolls to hit, and have good protection against flames (Ironically, many of the regen creatures have a breath attack of forms, against which you have a 2+ ward).

Second and what I consider more important point: Have you thought of beasts lore? A few reasons it may be worth it:

1) +1 to casting rolls if casting on cavalry (ie most of your army). Wyssans makes your cav good in subsequent rounds of combat, and also helps spears chop through anything.
2) Savage beasts of horrors with that many nobles is amazing. Think about it: Aura savage beasts on your 3 nobles would give you 19 S9 attacks in combat with ASF and re rolls to hit... nothing to scoff at.
3) Flock of doom, while not great, is usually strong enough to take care of some chaff units. It only really struggles against sabertusks, most other chaff is T3, so it is wounding on 5s (can cause enough for a panic check) and it is easy to cast.
4) Amber spear for a cannon ball that automatically hits if cast. This will really help against warmachines, High T or good AS aura chariots (coven throne, STank, luminark, etc. Stuff you currently can't take out too easily). And also is great against monsters (rips open terrogheists with their 6+ regen only). Also realize, if you are targeting a monster with it, you still get +1 to casting roll, which can make it that much harder to dispel.
5) Wyssans is one of the best sig spells in the game
6) Pelt makes your characters T6 which is nice for an elf.

I think it would merge well with your army. Something to consider. All spells except for transformation are good, and transformation is just fun if you are running a foot mage (you keep ASF when you transfer as it is a special rule not a magic item, so boosted version to a chimera gives you 4D6+1 WS 7 S7 attacks with re rolls to hit AND a S4 breath AND a S7 Tstomp... mountain chimeras are just fun!).

Just something to consider.

All the best, and I look forward to seeing more BRs! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:14 am 
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@ Findolfin

I think you should simply email organizers and ask for guidelines and help. I think they would be able to accept painted army and if the units are distinguished well and you inform opponents about it they should be ok with it. Especially that you downgrading DP to SH :)

@ jwg20

Very good idea! Who else if not cavalry based army should benefit from the Beast magic the most? And it would fit the theme of impetous knights too! Findolfin, go for it! :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Thanks for the feedbacks guys.

About beast lore, thoses cast value are a bit too high for a lvl 2 :)
But yes, beast of horros would be really great as a 12'' bubble and I did intend for the Gem Prince to have beast sig spell. I had also toyed a bit for the 12'' bubble of Light lore birona's Timewarp.

Problem is I don't see it happen unless I have a mean to
1) Make sure I do get that spell
2) I can get off that boosted spells without blowing up my mage

Only having staff of solidity gets me that protection and I would probably need an Archmage coupled with a lvl 2 to try make sure to get it in spell selection. That or staff of saphery, but then I must be ready to accept blowing up the mage.

I guess nothing prevents me from having a sacrifice lvl 1 with SoS staff, and an Archmage. But then I must cut some points elsewhere, likely downgrade Prince to noble. I am still looking how I can make something more happen without losing reavers.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:16 pm 
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I don't see myself cast anything else than High magic with a single lvl 2, but I do can manage to fit in the crystal without too much severe modification of initial draft.

If I want more than a single High mage lvl 2 with AC, I need the Archamge. To get either the Beast Lore or Light Lore big bubble spell off, I must take a lvl 4 and a lvl 1-2, considering last post. There is kinda only 3 ways to do this. It all comes down to the 625 cap on heroes composition, forcing me trough an awkward selection.

It all also force to cut the chariot and much of the command, including some musicians.

1st build: only way to almost make sure I get the spell I want on AM is to use the RGoH with wand. This enables the staff of solidity and a pretty safe bet at going 6d6 on the big bubble of beast of horros OR Bironas Timewarp ( depending on lore choice ) at a critical moment. I lose the Crystal in this deal.

AM Staff of solidity
Prince RGoH, silver wand + whatever
BsB
Noble

Same core ( or 3x 20 spears FC )
3 x 9 silver helms ( 16 points left for command splitted among the 3 units )
18 reavers, mu.

2nd Build: Beast Lore build. This one is a bit a bad idea, or at least reckless. It implies bringing the AM to the frontline. It allows for Dragon Princes.
AM Barded Steed, Staff of solidity, 4+ ward, Fencer Blades
Lvl 1 mage, wand and ring of fury ( or lvl 2 with crystal if I lose the Fencer Blades, or none of these but extra command on the busses aka discipline banner on DPs )
BSB
Noble
Same core ( or 3x 20 spears FC )
2 x 9 silver helms
1 x 9 Dragon Princes
18 reavers, mu.

3rd Build: Similar to above but AM on foot and pretty much restricted to Light Lore since drakemaster would not benifit. I am also unsure if he really will help in a grind situation.
AM Staff of solidity
Mage as above
BsB
Noble
2 x 9 silver helms
10 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster ( Foe bane or Sword of might + hardiness potion + luck stone )
18 reavers, mu.

There is no best solution, It's one of the above or the inital list with single lvl2 high mage, crystal and Prince with command crown. Not sure what I will go for.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Had a game yesterday against Lord Alithmar ( Shadowmage ) on Universal battle, don't have all the details but I got earliers turns.

It was High elves vs High elves,
I decided to try out same list I played last time, with a slight variant as to try not go for the whole list overhaul yet. Basically drop some command, reavers, the sorcery banner and a RBT to get a Prince.

Prince GW , barded steed, heavy armor, dragon helm, vambrance and crown of command.
BsB, helm of fortune, other trickster shard, 6+ward
High Archmage, 5+ward and crystal
24 lsg FC
28 spears FC
9 Helms, mu
9 Dragon Princes, mu, Champ ( sword of might , charmed shield, luckstone )
1 T chariot
18 Reavers FC
1 RBt

He had a list along the lines of Curu's list, with his main hitting unit being 20 lions and the Star Dragon. He had also a full spear unit and 2 T chariots, also a RBT. So not the same list.

I lost deployment, as he had way more drop than me, deploying eagles, reavers, etc first. So I decided to deploy dead center and get my formation as I wanted so Prince LD and BsB bubbles covered all units and both rank and files units were paired with a cavalry bus. I already realise his army have no blocks to speak of and that I will be charging into nothing decisive. I can only set my sight on the white lions.

Image

He still get first turn with skein silver. His dragon already flank me on first turn but he moved up his white lions.
Magic on both side won't be much of use during the game, both having crystal, except for a later on flames on his spears. His shooting is mostly against reavers who don't panic.

I will the left wing of my army to face the threat, steering in the Dragon Princes to protect the helms flank from chariot charges. I dismiss the threat of the RBT so much I have never had any success with them. Shooting don't do anything on dragon and Vaul's on 6d6 is dispelled, preventing me from removing his vambraces. This could have won it for me considering what happen next.

Image

He move his dragon to position to breath and then his RBt manages to kill a whole DP rank. On subsequent turn, it will finish the DPs except champ. I think it also killed the chariot prior to that for good measure. That's the second strike, 100pts RBT taking out 400+ on it's own. My own RBT can't even manage to kill a single eagle on 2 subsequent rounds and finally get destroyed by said eagle.

Image

I manage to combo charge the white lions but my helms and Prince fluff it totally, most kills done by seaguard. Sea Master duel it out against White lion Champ, and they both kill each other. 6 White lions are left standing. And they hold.... That's the third and final strike. Considering his pears were flamed following turn, breaking lions totally would have enable me to overrun toward chariots hopefully far enough from dragon.
Image

No more images, but dragon charge in on his turn but fail to break seaguard and helms. A mass mellee follows as aditional unit get added in and my own BsB, I manage to grind white lions, trough spears ( flamed before getting there ) and a unit of archers. Ultimately my Prince dies in duel with his Prince who still had his vambraces but also had trickster shard which was decisive. I then yielded, my general and archmage being both dead.

My reavers manage to destroy an archer unit but I pretty much fail to do anything useful. They at least kept his own reavers, archers and RBT busy. My spears did nothing useful but were about to destroy RBT. I'm pretty dissatisfied on how I used both of theses unit. Having managed to throw the spears into that CC and the reavers to go straight for the RBT on turn 2, might have been different. Still, I had no tools to properly deal with the Prince on star dragon except Vaul's.

I wish to apologize to my opponent for the poor show and the very slow pace of the game. He earned his victory and what follows is in no way to diminish that win. I still must say however there was 2 big factors that lead me to a very confused play, both being due to my own fault:

- It was my first time using universal battle software. It felt very strange viewing the field from above and even stranger to be heading from top of the screen. Despite very accurate tools, I had big troubles to assess the distances. Normally, I barely need a tape to estimate distances. There was also trying to count the dices result on screen where I'm used to simply pick them off table, and also the communication with opponent that felt totally clumsy. However, It's a great software, I will just need some games to adapt I hope.
- I had my 2 years old son with me, my wife being gone to shop. I tought to myself, hey, maybe I can finally get some time for myself and try this out. My son was calm and busy playing with his toys at that moment. Oh boy was I wrong. I should have known that quality time don't exist and the best I can hope is making a battle report when there is downtime at the office... Yep, no life for me outside office work, house work, and a game with some beer once per month. don't get me wrong, I love my son and my wife with all my heart but it seems sometimes I am no more in control. I will not blame my son, but only myself. Should not have started that game but rather play with him. Was not a very good father that day.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Hey Findolfin!

Shame you lost, but Universal Battle is different. You just have to get used to it. I have most of my games on there, so it's second nature. Well, you'll get the hang of it.

If you like, I'll give you a game on UB sometime. Your list is really interesting. Fine if you prefer 'real' Warhammer though.

Oh and next time, just cut out the actual battle map on paint or something and post that, so we don't see the whole computer screen and everything you said etc. Just a bit of advice, keeps it more private.

Thanks for the report. :)

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I was actually your opponent in that game. Don't worry we will have a rematch sometimes when you're more familiar with the software and not babysitting the youngster.

Regarding UB, its a great place to test. There are some weak players but alot of good hardcore generals from eu, australia and north america. I lost a high % of games when I first started playing there. But it helped my develop my lists and tactics.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:15 pm 
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I did not give up on Universal battle. As a matter of fact, I managed to get another game in against Jwg20 ( Gatti ) vampire counts. I had never played against them and barely knew their rules. All I knew was that his list had beaten Brewmaster Light Coven, which was downright scary.

Again, lack of knowledge bited me in the *beep*, and at one point I almost thrown the towel so much I was getting steamrolled. I am overdue for a full reread trough some army books and the BRB. :P My own list was the same as in last game, except I was testing out beast lore this time.

Deployment:
Once again, I see myself completely outdeployed due to my lack of drops. And once again I still manage to lose first turn with a 1. In that situation, I simply focus on getting a correct formation were my LD and BsB cover everyone and were my rank and files are paired with each cavalry bus. I also make use of the hill with the seaguard. I deploy the RBT on the far off side, trying to make use of the river cover and draw some chaffs away. The WL unit tag is wrong on the image, these are my 18 reavers bus.

He deploys near the cave ( altar ). I realise how many flyers he have and I certainly don’t like it.
Image

My spells ended up with : Wyssan, Flock of doom ( glorious name for a s2 ), Pan pelt, Savage Beast.
His spells, I don’t quite remember. There was zombie invocation, the movement spell, one for extra attacks and one for wounds reroll.
Vampire turn 1:

His chaff advance aggressively ( vanguard included in this ) while my reavers elect to move toward the other side of the battlefield and try get behind his lines on turn 3 or 4. His cav is more cautious as to not let me get the charge while his skellies march ahead.

With 3 channels, his magic sees him get through a zombie summoning in front of my seaguard.
Image

High elves turn 1:
I decide to leave his chaff alone for now since it screens me from a charge of his cavs. Reavers continue toward the other side while spears and chariot move more aggressively. Dragon Princes position themselves to close the gap.

Magic sees the super s2 manage to take out a unit of 2 bats. RBT fluffs as always with 1,1,1,1,2 and a single kill on wolves. Seaguard volleyfire don’t even bring one knight down. Again, the high elves tooth picks fail me.
Image

Vamp turn 2:
His wolves charge the RBT but 1 of the crewmen survives and hold. His chaff reposition itself to block both cav bus and seaguard( it’s position is a bit off here ). His skeletons takes the building while the second unit shuffle a bit a forward, knowing I need to break trough to get behind his lines. The Black knights move toward the left flank to threaten the seaguard.
Image

High elves turn 2:
Spears elves and chariot charge together. I now commit a grave error by charging both cav bus in the wolves. My plan was to overrun the helms trough the zombies into his Black Knights while I was counting on the DPs to overrun and take the charge from the blood knights and hold. Worst case, if they unlikely broke, Blood knights would overrun past the helms. In all case they would protect the helms flank should they fail to plow trough zombie which was also unlikely with 9S5 and 4S6 attacks.

I needed to declare both overrun at same time I was told, so I did, resolving Dragon Princes. It all came to a Disaster as I rolled a very short overrun... While Helms flank was still protected, they could not squeeze trough to overrun correctly and thus would not plow trough zombies. I still tought DPs could hold but their position now exposed them to an additional unseen threat.

I should have also charged the seaguard in zombie for this whole thing to actually maybe work out, or have stay put with my cavalry as my opponent could not charge trough his own wolves. Meanwhile, magic is useless. Seaguard reposition itself and shoot again to no effect. RBT dies.
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Vamp turn 3:
His Vargheists charge my Reavers who, after I read the beasts monstrous statistic line, elect to flee. Of course, blood knights charge the Dragon Princes who hold, still not seeing the threat. As it stands, the Vampire General is mounted on a winged horse and can see the Dragon Prince flank, and fly above the zombies to get in.

I am so taken aback by this that I forget to double-check the bloodknight frontage who looks to me at 5, same as DP, therefore in my head they won’t be clipping the helms if they overrun. I decide to hold to protect the helms and hopefully leave his General overrunning alone or staying put were my shooting and magic might pluck some wounds. I am also planning to use my Dragon Princes champion to challenge him in duel, maybe delaying a critical phase since he has no champion in his blood knights. Another series of bad decision as little did I know that his each of his Bloodknights could accept a duel as a special ability, doubled with an extra attack from berserk for not 2 but 3 each... That’s what you get for just reading the stat line.

You know the rest, but it get worst. All of the 11 Dragon Princes attacks fails to kill even a single Blood Knight. The Champ is locked in duel with a BK and also manage to fail to kill him with 3 wounds from his sword of might, all saved by armor. As I am about to do my BsB, he informs me he’s general have an aura that negates the Great weapons strength bonus and my ASF... So my BsB is at S4, strike last and no reroll but little does it matter as he is cut down before striking. Between the two vampires and the bloodknights, the Dragon Princes are killed to the last elf... As he overrun, his BloodKnight frontage is still 6 having suffered no single loss... and so they do all overrun into the helms flank and my exposed General.
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High elves turn 3:
After all this, I am completely demoralised, and about to throw the towel. I barely get a hold of myself, as I still want to play more games and don’t want to be branded a sore loser. It's in defeat that you learn the most. I decide to stick around until my Prince goes down. I have no illusions, as he is also wielding a Great Weapon and now in base to base contact with the Vampire General.

Fortunately, Reavers rally and immediately rush back toward the massacre, reforming in 2 rows to maximise distance between them and Vargheist. Spears and Chariot do a good job at grinding the skeletons blocks and the chariot offers them some form of respite should his Vargheist charge in. Nothing I can really do anywhere, 2 Bats having fly clumsily in front of the seaguard, providing a screen against a counter charge from them into the Black Knights.

I thought of charging bats and overrun into the main combat but feared a counter flank charge from the Black Knights. A grave error led by misunderstanding of crumble rules as I thought the vampire characters weren’t affected. I should have charged sea guard right then and now... Magic saw me cast all my 6 dices at savage beast on the Prince but failed to get IF and then it was all scrolled away... Shooting finally saw a single Black Knight down.

Dramatics: ” The undead knights crushed the bodies of the dragon princes, horses and elves alike, under their infernal hooves barely slowling their charge. The deadly lances punched trough the Silver Helms bodies, slaying the entire back row. Lord Malrik felt his strength sapped but clenched his teeth, challenging the enemy among the deads, both enemies and fallen comrades. His crown of command gleamed on top of the Dragon Helm. A Blood Knight stepped forward but the Vampire Lord paused him, knowing the High elf would stand to the death. He would need to break him himself. Red fury in his eyes, he grinned as both of them drew their sword.

A furious barrage of attacks from the vampire mighty sword almost all wound the Prince but his ward held on despite one severe cut. Wounded and weakened, his elven great sword was deflected harmlessly... Still, Malrik planted his feets solidly into the ground. He was not going to run toward his shame“
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Vampire turn 4:
Wanting to finish it once and for all, and not having any clear charge with the Black knights, the vampire BsB join the fray by charging in the remaining helms kept safe so far by Malrik last stand. Bats flew away in an attempt to stop the reavers, who are desesperately trying to come help their Lord. Vargheist, wolves and bats give chase to the reavers. Skeletons gets out of the building behind the spears, suddenly making their situation dire.

In combat, the reavers kill the bats but the BsB finish off the remaining helms, overrunning toward the Reavers, but comes out too short. A first bad decision from my opponent, as he said after the game. Again, Malrik manage to stand his ground, failing to wound his enemy but unscathed this time around.

At this time, my head is now cooling down as my elven general breathed some hope within me. I now realise why he kept the Vargheist from charging chariot. My spears were winning every CR so far and I had time to see the effects of the crumble on them for every point of CR they lost by. The chariot 4 wounds would not have helped in anyway to win that combat and all it would have done is risking destroying them in the process as I was winning by a large margin. Besides, he had the other skellies now behind them.

Still, I also now see what I failed to realise the turn before... Those zombies were part of the combat as Malrik had charged them earlier with the now dead helms. They are a easy and plentiful CR for my seaguard...
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High elves turn 4:
This time there is no hesitation or second guessing. Reavers charge the blood knights flank, seaguard charge the zombies. The vampire BsB charge shown is his previous turn overrun. Magic does not produce anything.

In duel, again, Malrik armor and wards saves him from the grave much to my opponent disbelief. The reavers kill the bloodguard but can’t step in due to unengaged BsB in the path, I am informed. The seaguard however does not fail it’s task, killing around a dozen zombies. At least the blood knights are going down due to crumble, I tell myself, thinking vampire characters don’t take crumble tests.

Jwg20 : “well, that sucks. Everything crumbles :P

The result was way more dramatic than I thought it would be: “ Malrik had both knees on the ground, so powerful the Vampire Lord hammering had been. Summoning all his remaining strength he stroke one final blow but it went completely wide, striking trough the wind. He was now standing alone in a cloud of dust and among his fallen comrades bodies and dying horses... The only figure to emerge was Lady Laetitia: It’s not over father... “

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Vampire turn 5:
The turn begin by a crumble dust, his General now dead, wolves, bats and a few skeletons join him.

Seaguard had overrun to steer clear from Black Knights, and reavers also did into the vampire BsB. Malrik did not have that option, not having charged. The Black Knights raised their killing blow enchanted wight blades and charged the elven general. The Vargheist charged the Reavers rear. Despite the lethal danger, Malrik prepared for another onslaught. I now had a complete confidence in him but most importantly, wanted my reavers to enjoy his LD10 and did not wanted him to run after such a stand.

Malrik remained true, deflecting all hits and his ward protecting him from a single killing blow... freed from the curse, his greatsword fell a knight. The reavers spears stroke first and true, taking the enemy BsB out before he could react. On the rear it was less successful and almost the entire back rank was mauled down. Still, with a full rank remaining against none, and their lord in range, they held their ground steadfast and reformed to face the monsters.

On the other side of the battle however, spears and chariot were broke after a rear charge but managed to escape the slow skeletons.
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High elves turn 5:
Weakest skeletons crumbles totally. Spears and Chariot rally. I could charge the seaguard in but I did not fancy losing my archmage to a killing blow. I should have at least moved her out so they could charge next turn. That or I secretly wanted to see my Prince end it with savage beast spell.

Magic phase 5 vs 4, savage beast is dispelled, despite no enemy casters, due to a weak roll on my side.

Combat see another knight down and their attacks produce no killing blow, and this time at s4, and less numerous, are easily deflected . Reavers lose more of their numbers but kill one Vargheist, holding on steadfast still.
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Vampire turn 6:
Skeletons charge the spears but lose combat. Prince fails to kill anything and the 3 Knights don’t get a hit either.

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High elves turn 6:
Chariot charges skeletons flank with 6 impact hits, but in the end fails to finish them even with spears help due to failed fear tests.

This time magic is a good 9 vs 5, and see both wyssan on reavers and finally savage beast on the Prince.

The ensuing 7 st9 attacks put down all the black knights. Reavers are now down to 4 from the initial 18, but manage a draw this time around which is won with musician. Its not enough to destroy the Vargheists.

With this, the game ends with an unlikely High elf victory...

“ The Seaguard had their mouths wide open as they saw their Lord walk back toward them with his usual expression full of contempt and a trail of his own blood behind him. They all knew it was only due to him if any of them were still alive. Yet, the old elf seemed unmoved and yelled: What are you standing here for!? Go and help the wounded! ”
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Well, I did stole this one from Jwg20. I feel my Prince won the battle and I had nothing to do with it. Loec was definitely protecting Prince Malrik that day. Among all my disastrous calls, I did at least 2 good decisions: Use his own chaffs to protect my Seaguard from the Black Knights and charge them in his zombies to provoke that crumble.

If I had charged the seaguard on turn 3 into bats instead, after my Prince heroically survived that first duel round, the poor elve would not had have to go trough all this epic fight. An overrun would have seen the seaguard in zombies and in the next cc were it would have won the big fight then and there. On the other side, I only understood the implications of crumble later on. Also, it did make for a great story trough the very end.

Should I play against vampire again, I will definitely be on the look out for any such “CR bleeders”. I will have also to rethink my army, having my Archmage in seaguard brought me to much hesitation. My lack of drops and chaffs is really starting to hit me badly, both in deployment were I can’t hope to win it and also giving my opponent too much area to move freely. While the reaver bus was a great experiment, and did do a part in this victory, I underestimated the number of stubborn and unbreakable units out there. The normal rank and files are rare, so while disrupting ranks and breaking steadfast on a flank charge is sound, it’s in practice very hard to pull off due to the rarity of such units. It might finally be time to break my reavers up in several small units, to many of my readers and my own dismay. :/

Thanks to my opponent Gatti (Jwg20), I was very lucky theses few past day to be blessed with 2 great opponents from which I learned alot!

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:41 am 
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Well played Sir
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Location: Queensland, Australia
Nice work Findolfin, glad to see you're not giving up on UB, keep at it you'll get used to the system.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:45 am 
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HI Findolfin,

Thanks for the reports! I really like them, especially the second one when you pulled off quite an impressive win! Your prince is a true hero! :)

A few technical comments though, just for the future so that your repors are more clear.

1. In UB you can export pictures, click on M on the menu on the down toolbar and select "screen shot". You will then have an opportunity to save it (just add .jpg extension to open it with any software) and it will only be the "table". The picture is also bigger so you can use it as it is for a report.

2. In BC you can define the format of exported picture and you can also define its dimensions. So the picture can be slightly bigger and without frame.

3. You can switch off movement arrows for characters while moving them with units. You can switch it on as soon as you need them.

4. I got confused by big "WL" on your reavers. I thought these are White Lions :)

As to the games it looks like you should not tease lady luck by exposing flank to RBT shot. LA had some proper advantage in mobility with his Dragon but you could have reached his softer flank faster. I am wondering it was not a better choice to attack it first instead of being held by Lions and then finished by Dragon. Also, you might have tried to shoot at his dragon with your RBT too! It always makes people nervous :)

In the second game it was indeed harsh lesson but you emerged victorious. I agree you had a lot of luck but it also shows that you should never give up :) There were a lot of interesting moments and I am sure you have learned a lot. It was good call not to charge Zombies to prevent the charge of more powerful enemy unit. You learned how dangerous lone characters can be and that you should always pay attention to opportunities for them to bolt away. It seems Black Knights are more delivery system here :) You also learned how powerful CR can be against undead and that ranked core infantry can do what some elites cannot. 3+ ranks on the flank is deadly even to Vampire Lord :)

Oh, and last but not least, you should have played with your son as the team :) He would be "rolling dice" and offering tactical advice :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:28 pm 
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On Vampire turn 3, the Blood knights (with attached Vampire hero) charge the front of your Dragon Princes. The Vampire Lord also charges out of his unit into the DP flank. They completely wipe out the Dragon Princes and overrun. Except by rule they cannot overrun usefully. Overrun direction is always straight, which for the Vampire Lord is southeast. There is no way for him to overrun into your Silver Helms, which are north. The Blood Knights could theoretically overrun into the Silver Helms, but it is extremely likely the Vampire Lord would block them, even if he does his overrun move first.

The root problem with that combat was assuming the Dragon Princes would not be obliterated. Even assuming you were correct on the blood knights only having 2 attacks each total, you lose that fight. You have basically zero damage output from the Dragon Princes - 0.45 wounds, plus 0.3 from the champion. Your BSB cannot be expected to kill the vampire hero. The Blood Knights alone, with just 10 attacks, average 3.5 wounds on you and their horses are worth another half a wound, for about 4 total. They win by 3 and your aren't Steadfast unless you get super lucky and kill 2 of them. I feel you clearly overestimated the combat ability of non-charging Dragon Princes.


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