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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:45 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Has it been FAQ'd or something?
Nope. No making the enemy re-roll successful regen saves with Other Trickster's Shard.


Last edited by dabber on Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:05 am 
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As always I have my book at work, so I cannot cite it, but I do think that the ToL description speaks of:"saves of all kind" or something like that...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:00 am 
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Plague Monks - Y U NO DO ANYTHING?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:58 am 
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@SpellArcher - if I remember you're somewhat in the same situation as me in that you don't have anything else to deal with big nasty things? With that I mean that you primarily want your Prince to at least be able to deal a wound or two to the really tough ones out there, which implies he needs ToL. Regeneration is a problem, in general, because of the abundance of 2+ flame-ward out there.

@Jaith - regeneration and ward save cannot be taken against the same wound. With that being said, they're still very different: regeneration is negated by flaming and killing blow and cannot be improved by Magical Resistance against spells. As for the 1+ armour save, the Star Dragon only sports 6 attacks. I say only because without ASF the damage output is way less than what we're used to as Elves. I second your opinion about Amulet of Light on Furion's proposed BSB build, though ironically enough I believe this leads to the Prince being better off with my loadout - magical attacks aren't that important.

@dabber & Paricidas - I believe dabber was referring to The Other Trickster's Shard as previously discussed. Indeed Talisman of Loec forces you to re-roll successful regeneration saves.

@HERO - I laughed at the famous meme ;) I assume you're talking about the Skaven game?

Frankly, I believe his strategy from the start was to go at the Lions in 2 waves. In my opinion, this is a very sound approach as it almost always guarantees that they won't reach his bunker at all throughout the game. One can debate whether the Stormvermin or Plague Monks should've engaged first, but with his T1 movement he had commited the Stormvermin. How would you play it differently, given the narrow situation between the 2 rocks?

The last 2 games of our league sees me face Vampire Counts (old book) and Dwarfs (nasty list). I haven't arranged either of them yet so I don't know what order I'll face them in. On the painting and modelling side of things I'm currently working on Saerith on foot (I think it's good to have one every once in a while when Faeria can't make it).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Siegfried VIII - thanks man, good to know you're back :) Any specific points as to potential improvements in my game / mistakes I made from your point of view?


I read through many games and it was too much info for my poor brain to process all at once, but I generaly think you made no huge mistakes.

My only concern is that I felt you played your bsb in a more risky way than you should at certain points.

Also I agree with Furion's suggestion regarding you core set up.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:27 pm 
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On my Prince Loec is almost essential. The chariot means I need Charmed Shield and that nerfs the armour save. So having Loec to kill things before they can strike is very helpful! As you say though Curu, it's that reliability which is so good.

I agree on the hard targets. I've got units that can put S5 hits on things. But some stuff can shrug that off and for those I have the Prince. Another point is that we can maybe Vaul's a character's Ward, we can't Vaul's a monster's Regen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Quote:
@HERO - I laughed at the famous meme I assume you're talking about the Skaven game?


Yeah... Plague Monks w/ Plague Banner puts the hurt on anything unit in the game with the sheer amount of attacks and re-rolls he has access too. 3 attacks each, re-rolls to hit and wound for 1 round of combat nets so much CR in his direction it's not even funny. I'm also surprised as his Lore choice. Plague is an overall stronger lore, having access to Wither and Bless with Filth, Plague and Corruption. Is he allowed to switch lores or are the lores locked in?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:59 pm 
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@SpellArcher - good points about S5 and regen! I must evaluate a thing or two with regards to regen in particular after the new VC book is out (especially with regards to putting flamebanner on Archers).

@HERO - again though, how would you play them? Would you send in the monks first? Such a tactic allows me to simply not engage his screening rat dart and get the Dragon into a lucrative position. It's all about context and this particular terrain wasn't in his favour :) Lores were locked in the list writing!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Looking at the diagram, I think the Plague Monks could of advanced further while he held back on the Slaves. Even if they're redirected, I still would of played them a little more ballsy than to see them do nothing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Curu: Here's my list for our game tomorrow. This one has a little bit of everything.

2500 Pts - Vampire Counts Army

1 Vampire Lord @ 404.0 Pts
General; Lore of Vampires; Heavy armour; Shield; Magic Level 1
Sword of Strife [40.0]
Dragonhelm [10.0]
Talisman of Preservation [45.0]
Quickblood [30.0]
Red Fury [50.0]

1 Master Necromancer @ 200.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of Vampires

1 Necromancer @ 100.0 Pts
Magic Level 1
Cursed Book [35.0]

40 Crypt Ghouls @ 400.0 Pts

49 Zombies @ 157.0 Pts
Standard; Musician

20 Zombies @ 60.0 Pts

2 Bat Swarm @ 70.0 Pts

8 Crypt Horrors @ 314.0 Pts
Crypt Haunter @ [10.0] Pts

2 Fell Bats @ 32.0 Pts

5 Hexwraiths @ 150.0 Pts

1 Spirit Hosts @ 45.0 Pts

6 Vargheists @ 286.0 Pts
Vargoyle @ [10.0] Pts

1 Mortis Engine @ 240.0 Pts
Blasphemous Tome

5 Dire Wolves @ 40.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 2498.0

Magic relies on spamming multiple low-level spells with +3/6 to cast.
There is two solid combat units, one tarpit, plenty of chaff and one infantry-killing character.
The army lacks means to kill large monsters and will have to rely on hexwraiths to tie them up. It should do okay vs warmachines. I'm also lacking in high-strength attacks, but will leave out GG/BK for now. I know they work.

I know this is supposed to be a balanced army, but I did have some thoughts on how to take down a star dragon. Problem is, they aren't optimal in a all-comers setting. A fully kitted Vampire lord or Ghoul king with potion of strength can easily kill a star dragon in one turn, but are vulnerable to shooting, and might die to the elf on top. Terrorgheist and Doom and Darkness works too, but Lore of death isn't very useful in all settings. It would require two master necromancers, and the odds of miscast with higher casting values aren't good. So the big monster strategy boils down to "ignore, avoid, trap. Kill if opportune."

One very useful unit I could take is a BK death star supported by chaff, but again, I know that works.
The tarpit unit of zombies is a bit to small to stop anything really hard, so requires a lot of first turn raising.
The cursed book is part of the spamming magic strategy.

Vargheists supported by bat swarms are a mobile reserve. In some battles they will simply run forward and kill stuff. VS HE they have to be more careful. At least the bat swarms remove rerolls.

The whole army will naturally group together around the Mortis Engine, necro bunker and General. Fairly predictable in deployment.

In closing, I fully expect your flying circus to tear my army apart bit by bit. But maybe we'll both learn something.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:58 am 
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@HERO - I assume you meant Stormvermin? This move would have to take place during his T1. This would've allowed me to leave his Rat Dart be and move the Dragon to a better position: the effect would've been that his Plague Monks would be unable to engage the Lions with Dragon support. Between 35 ASF S6 attacks hitting on 90% and the Flames, there wouldn't be a lot of monks left to make an impact on the unit. I do believe that getting the Stormvermin in first was a sound choice, as they're better at grinding with the Warlord. Flames pretty much saved me here since any decent amount of Plague Monks would've devastated what was left of the Lions.

@rusty - sure looks like an interesting list! I'll get to face a lot of the new stuff, which will definitely be a nice experience. It's also good to see you try something else than what everyone else (i.e. internet wisdom) perceives to be powerful. Hopefully it'll work out for you ;)

As for the Lord, with the general being as critical as he is to VC, I'm not sure that I view anything short of 2+ re-rollable and 4+ ward sufficient defense. There are so many things in the game that can really put the hurt on him and, given his price, I'd be reluctant to simply hold him back. Examples include, but are not limited to: White Lions, Ironguts, Greater Daemons, Cold One Knights, Greatswords and Hammerers. Now I don't know how easy it is to heal him, but apart from The Hunger you will be looking at 2 rounds of combat without magical healing if you're the one charging. 3+/4++ in this case, against said armies, is vastly inferior to 2+/2+/4++.

Anyways, looking forward to tonight ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:07 am 
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Man, Curu you've been powering through these games. Got to say, I love reading through these reports. The manoeuvrability of your list really makes me wonder what you're up to each turn. Like you said somewhere (possibly in a different thread...) Your list, since it is so speedy, gives almost nothing away when you make your moves. The dragon and the BSB can simply redirect into a different target than originally intended, if it suits you. This creates a bit of a no-win situation for the opponent, where he must try and keep all of his units (well, the ones within charge range of the Prince and BSB) relatively protected lest you pounce (from a great distance) on his weak point.

I'm loving the way this list works. Its astounding, really. Any time I've run a dragon list I've always felt uncomfortable without a big block of DP's to support him, but in this case, that's essentially the BSB.

I can't wait to see some more of these games!

Good luck Curu (and you to Rusty!) :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:14 am 
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Second game with Curus list, this time against the orks of our ETC captain (2 big units of trash orks, 4 or 5 characters and 2 lvl 2 gobos, 1 kamikata 2 stonethrowers).

My lvl2 decided to IF his first spell (arrow attraction) and was dragged to his doom together with half of the archer unit. All warmachines fired at the dragon and it was a wonder he even made it into 12 inches of one stomethrower befor the kamikata sealed its fate. The general survived with a single wound left.

I changed Curus dragonprinces for swordmasters. While their performance what not outstanding (they were carrying a banner of sorcery, obviously quite useless in this game), it surprised me that they made it into the combat without any harms. If there is a dragon on the table, you could even field a bunch of naked lvl 4s dancing around 40 rxbs, the dragon will always get all the attention. His mere presence on the table more or less guarantees a relativly stressless advanace of the SMs.

@Curu: Perhaps something that could be interesting: I was pointed out by my opponent that since the eagle-BSB is not riding a monster but monsterous cavalery, he is allowed to join units. Of course he does not get a LoS!, as he has the wrong unit type, but it saves him from regular BS shooting (and in my game, the hits of the kamikata).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:19 am 
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@Curu: you keep mentioning that ToL will force rerolls of all saves on the wounded model for the remainder of the phase (e.g. your dragon's attacks, thunderstomp, etc). I've read through the topic regarding this on the rules forum, in which you also posted once or twice, and seen that many--if not all--of the experienced posters disagreed with you about that (and I'd certainly be among them). Has some new information come to light about this issue? Have you tried invoking this rule in a battle? Do your opponents dispute this ruling or allow it?

It certainly seems wonderful that ToL has this effect, almost too good to be true.

Eagerly awaiting your VC report!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:32 am 
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Nicene wrote:
@Curu: you keep mentioning that ToL will force rerolls of all saves on the wounded model for the remainder of the phase (e.g. your dragon's attacks, thunderstomp, etc). I've read through the topic regarding this on the rules forum, in which you also posted once or twice, and seen that many--if not all--of the experienced posters disagreed with you about that (and I'd certainly be among them). Has some new information come to light about this issue? Have you tried invoking this rule in a battle? Do your opponents dispute this ruling or allow it?

It certainly seems wonderful that ToL has this effect, almost too good to be true.

I agree with Curu here (and I'm under the impression most people are). It sais so in the wording of the Talisman of Loec:
"The bearer may reroll all to hit and to wound rolls. Any model wounded by the bearer this phase must reroll any saves of any kind."

Emphasis mine. The wording "reroll any save" is the crucial part here. It doesn't say reroll any save against an attack from the bearer, but simply any save. A save made against a dragon attack is also a save and so it must be rerolled according to the wording of the ToL.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:28 am 
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@Cython - indeed it's been a few games ;) I've been trying to get as many as I can and luckily there's always been people to play against! I really like the mobility of the list, creating no-win situations is always good

@Paricidas - sounds like a tough break! Miscasting and disappearing on T1 is always bad. As for artillery, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it! In general though there are lots of good targets for the Dragon to just get stuck against to shield him from any shooting. With 3 War Machines he has a 50-50 chance of misfiring in any turn. I don't believe the Banner of Sorcery is worth investing in with this list, maybe if you ran an additional mage but that's a LOT of commitment to something that is of secondary nature to the list.

If the BSB joins a unit that unit will be reduced to M2. It can be used to hide though for a turn (if you know shooting's incoming) but in general I find that shooting tends to focus on the Dragon. I've also played Swordmasters a couple of games lately and have come to the same conclusion as you. This has in fact led me to wonder whether I should try something like Brewmaster's elite setup: 2x14 Swordmasters and 18 White Lions. It's an interesting thought and I don't think it's a coincidence that our experiences are similar!

@Nicene - to me, the wording on Talisman of Loec is pretty clear. I have never received an argument from any opponent neither and I'm pretty sure they've all read the item description more than once by now (it pretty much always comes up how powerful that item is for a mere 10 points).

@rdghuizing - yes the emphasis is indeed what (in my opinion) makes it clear. It does however mean that the Prince has to wound for this part to have an effect for the Dragon.

Battle report will be up later today, we had a few beers after the game last night so when I got home it was pretty much straight off to bed! Suffice is to say that it's well worth the wait and I promise it'll be an interesting read ;)

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:34 am 
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rdghuizing wrote:
and I'm under the impression most people are

I use Loec and I disagree, I interpret it as referring only to wounds inflicted by the bearer.

But I fully accept that it can be interpreted differently.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Alright guys, first game against the Vampire Counts! I was playing rusty and he was pretty much trying out all of the new stuff to see what it played like. I was happy to face a lot of different things as it really gives me an insight as to what the new book's brought with it.

:: Braaaaains ::

Lists were as follows:

My dragonlist:
Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord with Skeinsliver :: 247

Special Total: 700

2 Great Eagles :: 100

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2500

2500 Pts - Vampire Counts Army

1 Vampire Lord @ 404.0 Pts
General; Lore of Vampires; Heavy armour; Shield; Magic Level 1
Sword of Strife [40.0]
Dragonhelm [10.0]
Talisman of Preservation [45.0]
Quickblood [30.0]
Red Fury [50.0]

1 Master Necromancer @ 200.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of Vampires

1 Necromancer @ 100.0 Pts
Magic Level 1
Cursed Book [35.0]

40 Crypt Ghouls @ 400.0 Pts

49 Zombies @ 157.0 Pts
Standard; Musician

20 Zombies @ 60.0 Pts

2 Bat Swarm @ 70.0 Pts

8 Crypt Horrors @ 314.0 Pts
Crypt Haunter @ [10.0] Pts

2 Fell Bats @ 32.0 Pts

5 Hexwraiths @ 150.0 Pts

1 Spirit Hosts @ 45.0 Pts

6 Vargheists @ 286.0 Pts
Vargoyle @ [10.0] Pts

1 Mortis Engine @ 240.0 Pts
Blasphemous Tome

5 Dire Wolves @ 40.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 2498.0

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I didn't really know what to expect from this kind of army, I just wanted to play my normal game and see how I'd do! I was mostly concerned with being tarpitted but assumed my flyers could help out with regards to this.

Magic - I rolled Flames and Vaul's and swapped the latter for Shield. He chose invocation on his Vampire Lord and Necromancer, while his Necro Lord got Curse, Gaze, Vanhels and Invocation.

Deployment was fairly standard, but his mass of drops gave me an unfavourable angle: Lions (being cumbersome) straight across his Zombies wasn't something I liked. In hindsight, I might've been able to deploy them differently, going on the Eastern flank. Anyway, overall I was rather happy with deployment:

Image

He rolled a '1' for first turn so I got it!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Small Archers move up to tempt Vargheists and vanguarding Hexwraiths. The rest move up, wheeling towards the middle. The thought was to either force him to play defensively (and thus get good T3 setups) or punish him for early mistakes.

Magic was 7v4, I start with a 5D6 Flames on his Hexwraiths, which IF's (oh really?) and kills 2. Olannon loses a wound (luckily, normally I'd expect him to die).

Shooting goes very little.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 1 ::

He could've marched up hard, using zombies to block Lions. This would've depended on Vanhels though but could've been game-breaking. However, Dragon-fever hits in and the advance is slow. The exception of course is the East flank, where both his Vargheists and Hexwraiths charge the Archers (yes!) which flee and escape.

Magic is 5v5 and the net effect is a couple of more Zombies.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

The central spirit host is 13" away from the Lions. I contemplate dual-charging it with Saerith and Lions while Naenor goes into the Crypt Horrors to allow a multi-combat. While this probably would've won me the game there and then, I didn't want to take the risk as a failed charge would allow Zombies to tarpit Lions for a potentially very long time (stopping Invocation with the massive extra cast values from Mortis would've been impossible). Instead I set everything up for T3 charges, providing him with a couple of juicy opportunities with hidden traps, while the Eagles blocked what I needed them to. Annoyingly, my fleeing Archers failed to rally on re-rollable LD8 and fled off the table.

Magic is 7v4 and the increased strength of Flames kill off his Hexwraiths. I cast Flames on 4D6 on his Horrors but it is dispelled. I get both Drain and Shield on Lions through with the remaining 3D6.

Shooting puts a couple of wounds on Horrors and a Fell Bat.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 2 ::

Vampire Lord charges White Lions and takes the bait! Vargheists and Horrors charge the Eagle, however the Horrors are so big and so close that the Vargheists automatically have a failed charge (LD7 frenzy isn't reliable...). Blocking Eagles are charged by Bat Swarm and Horrors, Spirit Host moves to disrupt Swordmasters (Naenor has no place to land). Zombies move to block Saerith from charging the Lord.

Magic is 4v3 and he starts with Cursed Book - losing 3D6 and getting Miasma. I happily let him reduce my WL's WS to 3 and dispel his last casting attempt.

Mortis Engine screams at Saerith but deals no wounds.

In combat I challenge with the Guardian (see the grey arrow for his forced movement) which is slain, however the Vampire is now very, very exposed to a flank charge from Saerith. The Lions perform a combat reform, leaving Naenor space to engage the Spirit Host. One blocking Eagle manages well against a Bat Swarm unit while the other dies horribly to Crypt Horrors.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I charge Saerith into the Vampire Lord and Naenor + Swordmasters charge Spirit Host (static combat resolution of 4).

Magic is 7v4 and I get Flames through on Horrors and he intends to stop Shield. However with 3v4 dice and 1W left I opt simply not to cast it. I could've tried 1D6 Shield and 2D6 Drain though, which I probably should've. Shooting again is fairly inefficient.

In combat I declare Talisman of Loec. I score 3 hits and all wound. His 6+ armour save saves 1 (despite ToL!) and his 4+ ward save the 2 others (again, despite ToL!). This meant that Faeria would not benefit from the effect. However, he 'only' puts 3 wounds on the Dragon and in return her attacks + thunderstomp gets 2W on him. I have insane amounts of combat resolution however so he crumbles and dies. The resulting tests are fairly mild. Lions combat reform to protect Saerith from being zombie-tarpitted.

The Spirit Host fails to wound me and thus crumbles due to combat res. I overrun Naenor into the Horrors, getting a charge and wheeling to the far end, to protect Saerith as I'm not too keen on them hitting me full-strength.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 3 ::

Vargheists charge my bunkering Archers, being 17" away. However, again I happily flee, leaving him standing in the middle for the third turn in a row. Zombies back off.

Magic is 4v4 and he casts Curse on White Lions, which I let through to dispel the rest.

Combat sees Naenor win but he takes 2W in return. However he's done what I needed him to and everything's ready for my T4!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Saerith + Swordmasters charge the Crypt Horrors. I mistakenly place Saerith in base-to-base with Naenor, away from the Swordmasters. Note to self: think about post-combat positions when multiple charge positions are viable. Lions move to escape tarpit-death and hopefully take care of the Mortis Engine.

Magic is a huge 10v7 and he fears Flames. I dispel Curse on 3D6 and then cast Shield on 2D6 (Swordmasters) which he lets through. I discard the rest of the dice as I don't want IF.

In combat I kill the Horrors badly but Naenor dies in return. As I go to reform, I find that I cannot block Saerith from the Vargheists by reforming the Swordmasters as he's too far away! Luckily, the central Eagle holds (on 1W - the Ghouls rolling horribly!) and passes his test due to Saerith.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 4 ::

Vargheists charge Saerith and I can't flee as other charges will catch me so I hold. Zombies try, too, but are too far away. Mortis flank Lions.

Magic sees him get Curse through on White Lions, I dispelled Doom and Darkness from the Cursed Book (winds were mediocre).

The Vargheists lose 1 to Saerith but score 9 hits on Faeria in return. He then proceeds to roll 5+ on 8 out of 9 D6! I am powerless to defend against this and the Dragon dies before it gets to breath fire and strike them back. Saerith holds.

The Lions lose a handful and put a wound on the engine in return. I pass both the break test and the combat reform.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Archers (who formerly reformed to 3x10) charge in to help Saerith. Swordmasters rally (they had previously fled the Zombie charge).

Magic is 7v5 and I again get Shield through on the Archers and use the rest to dispel Curse on White Lions.

Combat - my Archers fluff badly as I fail to roll a single 5+ on 12 hits. In return, the Vargheists kill 8 Archers as I fail to roll a single 5+ for Shield. As rusty commented: "well you sure needed that spell!"). The Lions kill the Engine and the explosion kills a lot of Elves and Undead alike.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 5 ::

Zombies charge the Archers' rear. Lions are dual-charged and flee both, preserving points.

Magic sees the winds make it 4v3 and he starts with Cursed Book - getting Soulblight on the Archers which I fail to dispel on 3D6, leaving me extremely vulnerable.

Combat sees the Archers take a beating as I again fail to roll 5+ and take 10 casualties. I lose combat by 7 and I fail all my break tests (Gleaming Pennant being my last hope failing to do anything). The Vargheists catch Saerith (a healthy 722 victory points) while the Zombies catch the Archers.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

Swordmasters charge Vargheists and I skip magic because I don't think the ward's necessary here, at least not worth the miscast. White Lions rallied.

I proceed to score 17 hits against the Vargheists and then only manage to roll 5 4+!! I forgot Vargheists were only T4. The result was that a Vargheist was left with 2W, leaving me exposed to Zombies.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 6 ::

Zombies charged my flank. Magic was uneventful and we went to combat.

I start by failing my fear test. I kill the Vargheist anyway, due to a lot of attacks.

In return however the Zombies' static combat resolution coupled with my WS1 (losing me a casualty or two) and his return attacks meant that he won combat by 2. I roll a '7' for my break test and he runs me down.

Image

:: Victory Points ::

As we tallied up the victory points we were closer than I've ever been before! When all the bonuses were accounted for, less than 10 points separated us! As such the game was a draw.

:: Evaluation ::

Where do I begin? First of all, I really like the new Vampire Counts. I think it's a strong book with loads of possibilities, but the items gone missing and vanhels being fixed probably prevents it from being over the top. Their magic is also way less reliable now, with the remake of Master of the Black Arts (implicitly now forcing a Vampire Lord to choose between magic and combat as a lot of the former items making a blend possible being gone).

So, onto the game itself - I should've tried to get the Lions in another place. The threat of the tarpitters prevented them from playing optimally and denied me a good answer to his monstrous infantry. Between the Eastern rock and the hill likely would've been a good spot.

A big tactical mistake was to play the Archer horde as Archers. I should've deployed and played them 5x6 as this would give me way more options in the middle turns, providing static resolution and screening vulnerable targets. Shooting didn't do a lot but I know it's not supposed to against Vampire Counts.

Charging Saerith into the Horrors might not have been necessary at all. With the Swordmasters in the flank they would probably crumble fairly quick. With that being said, I should've placed him so that I could reform Swordmasters to screen him from the Vargheists.

Apart from this I feel I didn't make any obvious mistakes. I had a couple of moves which really ruined his plans, in particular forcing his Vargheists to charge 3 turns in a row, missing all of them, and getting his Vampire Lord right where I wanted him. In the end though, a couple of mistakes coupled with a few extreme rolls saw my win slip away (if Faeria had survived, those Vargheists would've been toast and I would've gotten away - a difference of ~1000 VP as my Swordmasters likely would've survived, too).

I've gotta get rusty to teach me how to make those 5+ rolls (seriously, you should see him play Daemons!) ;)

C&C welcome!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:12 pm 
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What a bloodbath!

It seems like you still played fairly well on the whole Curu, though you've identified some errors. The new VC Monstrous Infantry certainly look powerful, though I appreciate that the dice liked them here! What struck me was that you spent half what Rusty did on the magic phase and yet yours was the stronger. With no bonus PD or extra defence he was on the back foot magically most of the game here. This will hurt any army but for VC's it seems like very bad news.

I'd be interested to hear what Rusty would have done differently with hindsight.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Well played sir! Particularly interesting that you intentionally tempted him into the VC lord charge, planning to drag him out of position with the challenge. I much prefered the old challenge rules, where the issuer could be forced to move, but it is impressive to see someone knowing the imiplications of the change.

Why were the Vargheists so far out on the flank?

Does the Cursed Book appear to be worthwhile? He kept using it this game, and it kept not doing much.

Except for Annulian Crystal, the Winds of Magic were almost exactly even for 5 turns (although we don't have numbers for VC turn 4). The spell selection seems to have hurt the VC badly though. His successful spells ... Miasma into an irrelevant fight, Curse on WL, Curse on WL, Soulblight on archer horde in combat. Curse didn't kill enough to make a big difference, and you dispelled it before it hit hard. Soulblight mattered some, but if you could roll close to average on the 5+ ward, it would not have mattered much.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Given that history is usually written by the victors I think this is a pretty fair account of what happened. Now for my point of view.

Short version: I played like a tool, and was saved by the dice.

Long version:
I think my deployment was pretty OK, but I failed to plan properly with Vargheists, being way too focused on swinging around the flank and roll up achers. In hindsight they should've been placed further left, to ensure they stayed 22" from the archers. Maybe even backwards as I should've realized the archers were bait. If I had been able to move forward for just the first turn I could charge towards the centre, forcing panic checks and maybe secondary charges on any archers choosing to flee. Another option would have been up the centre, shielded by hexwraiths. That would also keep them within generals leadership.

Hex wraiths should have spent their vanguard moving right and threatening the dragon. Forgetting to dispel Flames sealed their fate, but They were probably wasted chasing after achers anyway, when their flaming S5 attacks and etheral could have held up swordmasters or one of the characters.

The large zombie unit should have been pushed agressively forward to tarpit WL. I'm simply not used to the concept of tarpitting, playing WE and DoC lately.

In my first magic phase I used Van Hels to move Crypt horrors. A spirit host within 1" blocked their move, but I moved just far enough to open the flank for the dragon. Big mistake. If Curu had risked and suceeded that charge I would have been in trouble.

Magic rolls were low for my part except the last turn, when I didn't have much in range anyway. VC magic is short ranged and require careful positioning to maximise potenial. One example was combat being out of range of my Van Hel necro in the bunker every single time I needed it.
My magic strategy was "trickle", but I never had sufficient threatening spells in range to make that work. Curu could simply dispel what mattered most and ignore the rest. Not selecting raise dead as a spell was a clear mistake. That could have been very useful.
I will hopefully be able to make the magic phase work by better plannning.

The Cursed book didn't impress this game, but I see potential there. Perhaps not in an army with a lvl 4 and Mortis engine though. All the curses are nasty if used right, and they autocast. Very random, needs more testing.



Charging WL with a lone vampire was obviously a mistake, in that I forgot that the challengee must align to the challenger. If I'd been smart I'd issued a challenge, forcing the WL champion to me and blocking the dragon.

All in all, lots of learning points for next game. Any suggestions for what could've been done better?

As for the army list, I think it's too early judging units after only two games with the new book. Everything could have performed better if played better, and nothing stands out as truly unbalanced, one way or another.

Finally, this was apparently the first game in ten that the flying circus didn't win. I probably did something right :)

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, really fun game!

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Last edited by rusty on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Looking at the battle, for me the biggest weakness was losing Naenor and Saerith. The Crypt Horrors weren't threatening much where they were, and moving your heroes out to really dominate the back line might have proved more effective.

Particularly going for the small zombie bunker with the Necro Lord. While you aptly removed the Vampire Lore, removing the Necro Lord would have forced another crumble test on the army, prevented models from being recovered, opened the magic phase just a bit, and also continued to force a crumble test every turn on his whole army!

Was there ever a point you could threaten the Mortis Engine?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:57 pm 
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@SpellArcher - indeed a lot of units died! Overall as you say, the play was fairly good, however a few crucial mistakes show how dearly it can cost us Elves. I have no doubt that if another army (i.e. non-elf) had a viable Dragonlist, it would be easier to get away from mistakes. It's just our nature though, being an army of glass-cannons means that it's very unforgiving! I also agree about the magic - VC now find themselves in a position where they can't rely on generating +4PD and spam to do whatever they want every single phase, which is a good thing. Also, Annulian is plain awesome!

@dabber - thanks, the challenge was a risky move as I knew he could challenge first but I didn't count on him doing it. Worst case I would've had to take another couple of turns but that would've opened up other opportunities (e.g. bunker). Vargheists were pretty poorly deployed and I really managed to capitalize on this I think. Cursed Book is a steal for 35 points as it has the ability to turn a really good winds roll into something very serious and a poor roll into something really worth thinking about. In essence, it's a random factor that has huge potential and for a mere 35 points I think it's worth bringing. The question is more "is there a suitable carrier". As for his spells, I think that the main thing making it easy for me was the lack of good spells, i.e. he had no redundancy so prioritizing dispels were a fairly trivial task.

@rusty - well a draw is a draw and as such there is no true victor ;) Deployment-wise the centre was really strong and well-aligned to me whereas the Vargheists were off. Overall fairly decent!

Agree about large Zombies. This would've forced me to dedicate as much as possible against them to hopefully crumble them in 1 or 2 rounds of combat. Totally get the point about not being used to tarpitting ;) Also the first Van Hels I forgot about! 8" on normal 2D6 though is usually a desperate move by my standards. Winds were generally low but most importantly, you didn't roll doubles. Annulian is best when one rolls 4+2, 5+1 etc, which you had a lot of. Double 3's and double 4's is a poor winds roll for me.

Indeed a fun game and indeed my first non-win for quite a few games!

@Baeronvonbleat - losing the characters was a huge blow. I don't know how I could've played it differently though. I'll have another look and re-evaluate my Turns 3 & 4 in particular. As you point out the Necro Lord would've been a very juicy target. The Mortis Engine - I could've gone aggressive with both characters against it, taking on both the bunker and the engine I suppose!

I have a couple more thoughts with regards to how this army plays, I'll have to think some more before I'm able to convey them in a proper way though ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Yeah, I'm not sure if those suggestions are the right ones, but it felt like your army had the strength in maneuverability which ended up not being utilized.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Centurion

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Thanks for the report Curu.

Once again it's great to see such in depth tactical analysis and someone who is truly a master at their army so my hat off to you sir.

Secondly its good to see how the new VC play.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:45 pm 
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@Baeronvonbleat - no I think you have a really good point man. I would like to address it in detail but I am having a hard time expressing my thoughts clearly at the moment. Most likely I will get back to this in a post tomorrow. Despite the rather simple and abstract observation I believe there is a lot of value in it!

@Jimmy - thanks for the kind words, but I do not believe this to be among my best games. I am very glad you enjoyed the report and ensuing analysis :) any pointers, by the way? Though I of course appreciate positive feedback and cheering comments, I am always looking for people to point out what they perceive to be mistakes and sub-optimal decisions! After all, this is how we learn and get better, which is what I am seeking to do :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:32 am 
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Well played Sir
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dabber wrote:
Well played sir!

Cheeky devil! New Vampires are scary, I thought that Vampire Lord was dangerous looking but you took care of him, was different not seeing a terrorgeist.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:04 am 
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They are indeed very scary but I really think GW has done a good job with this book! I see a couple of builds being very powerful (rusty is toying around with the idea of a flying circus of his own which, on paper, looks very promising!) but again, probably not over the top (famous last words?).

Okay, time for me to try and express my thoughts and properly address Baeronvonbleat's comment about my manoevrability.

:: Having Superior Mobility ::

Obviously, there are not many lists which are more mobile than mine. As such, I can expect to dominate the movement and flow of the game. However, this requires 2 things. At first, they might seem trivial, in-game however mistakes are frequently made:

1. Deployment
My mobile elements cannot operate alone against any foe. While my characters can combine to kill lots of small-medium stuff, there are tons of matchups that are simply very bad for them. As such, my slower elements need to be perfectly deployed, otherwise I cannot capitalize fully on my mobility

2. Thinking Several Turns Ahead
Due to the shock nature of the list, it is of paramount importance that I think several turns ahead. Getting into a favourable combat might be a terrible idea if it means that my next setup(s) are impossible to play well. Clearly visualizing and thinking through various scenarios is a necessity to play well.

:: Utilizing Mobility ::

As Baeronvonbleat pointed out, my most recent game against Vampire Counts saw me failing to really take advantage of my greatest asset: speed. While I did get a couple of really good fights (Vampire Lord being number 1), I was also left in a lot of awkward and poor situations. How did this happen, why did it happen and what could've been done to prevent it?

Let's take a look at a couple of successful games to analyze how I want this list to play. My first game against Dark Reaper featured all-archer core vs Dark Elves. I had Dragon Princes protecting one flank, White Lions the other with the core holding the centre. Essentially the entire army worked in synergy with my mobile elements destroying his weaker units and the centre performing as an anvil. The same is also true for my game against Warriors of Chaos (league match) in which I managed to have all the elements working together.

So - time for an overall view in matches that did not go as well (both these games were massacres in my favour):
Vs Skaven I essentially had an army split in half where both halves failed to do what I wanted. Essentially, my normal principle of applying a lot of force against a tiny portion of an enemy army wasn't achieved. While I still won, I could've very well lost and I never would've gotten a massacre. In the game against Vampire Counts, I struck a decisive blow early on but this put me in a lot of poor spots with my characters.

:: In-depth Look vs Vampire Counts ::

The first mistake I made was to get the Lions deployed vs the Zombies. I think that what I should've done was to place the Archers in the woods, Swordmasters central, Lions East flank. This would allow a classical enveloping manoevre. More importantly, the pond protected my West flank and the house on his West flank prevented him from squeezing a lot of units into that part. As such, I would've forced my Lions to face his monstrous infantry while his normal infantry would've been forced to wheel to counter my East approach. This would've allowed my Archers to go into combat mode as well with lots of vulnerable flanking opportunities.

Having covered deployment, it's time to address the Archers. Though their name implies that they shoot, we're still looking at WS4 ASF attacks here. I should've realized that in this matchup, the primary role for them would be to go deep to provide static combat resolution and a fairly solid anvil element where needed.

Back to my original questions:
- How did this happen? Well, I failed to use Lions properly. Honestly, my usage of them in this game was terrible. Granted, from a purely mathematical point of view they helped me gain 700 vp (general + mortis) while giving up none, however I didn't get a single favourable fight from them (the engine fight prevented me from helping the middle so that essentially he sacrificed ~250 points to keep ~500 points away). It's easier said than done to create a favourable matchup for a cumbersome horde, but if I can't do it with this list then something's wrong with either my list or my tactics (nobody can afford to consistently have a 500 point combat block get into poor matchups).

- Why did this happen? Despite my poor usage of the Lions, the poor deployment AND failing to assign the Archers the right role, I simply ended up in the middle because I was too eager. Saerith did not need to charge the Crypt Horrors - the flanking Swordmasters would've been enough. This would have him in a very good position. Regardless, as it played out my rash decision to place him base-to-base with Naenor instead of the Swordmasters sealed the deal. Though I was unlucky to have the Dragon killed, I was very lucky to have the Eagle hold (on 1W!!) against the Ghouls and if it had broken I would've been dual-charged.

- What could I have done to prevent this? First and foremost, I should've considered more options before going with what immediately seemed like a good option. I will admit that in this game, I frequently skipped thinking multiple turns ahead and considering a wide range of actions. This cost me very dearly, and as I've explained further up, despite of my tactical errors with regards to the Lions and Archers, there were simple choices (like not charging Saerith into Crypt Horrors) available to me that would greatly improve my position.

:: Conclusion ::

I suppose this is an interesting read and all, but I want to take it a little bit further and ask, what does this mean for my army list?

Long story short, I've concluded that there are a lot of matchups where I need essential support for my fighter characters. I believe Furion is really onto something with his last proposed list change. Though I disagree a lot with a couple of the choices he's made, the army would indeed operate very differently and I think that this reflects his experience with regards to how High Elves can play optimally. Essentially you can see that his list has an easier time getting favourable combats and not getting stuck in unfavourable ones. This is because the list is based around only 1 flyer and has 2 combat blocks (as opposed to my 1.5 blocks). Now, I'm wondering if it's possible to achieve something of a mix between the two? That is, can points be shuffled around to create a roster that is better suited to achieve this while maintaining the two flyers? Naturally, there aren't a lot of points to shuffle around here so any changes are likely to be marginal, yet marginal changes often matter a great deal as to how an army plays!

I hope you enjoyed the read and most importantly that you have some opinions which you feel like sharing with regards to this evaluation ;)

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:13 am 
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Here's furion's only suggestion that I really like:

Remove 1 eagle, add Banner of Swiftness for the lions. This helps guarantee you the first turn and also gives them more options/more reliable charges. From your reports, I haven't noticed the 3 eagles really being that necessary, but I think the extra inch or two of movement would really open some doors for you.


***
But for kicks, I just spent 5 minutes on this list if you want more mobility:

625 - Dragon
160 - Mounted BSB
270 - 10 Helms
190 - 5 Princes
230 - 14 Lions
170 - 10 Swords
625 - Core
050 - Eagle
175 - Mage

=2495 edit: this list is just a joke.

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Last edited by Nicene on Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:35 am 
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On a more serious note, it sounds like you're considering taking Naenor off of his eagle and adding him to the DPs. I'm sure that I don't really like this idea, as your DPs have typically been filling a different (but very useful) role in your army and rarely comboing with the Dragon. The DPs are for clearing chaff, threatening shooters, covering the flank, etc. What you need is faster WLs.

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