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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:

1. Do you think at 2200 points, S6 banishment is enough?
2. Do you think that having no BSB is too risky?
3. If I did decide to include a BSB, I have a couple options - combat oriented or with the radient gem for S7 banishment. Which would you prefer if it were you?

Thanks again for reading guys!

D


Very good game Master of Breweries :) As always with you, reading the report I feel how you keep the pace and rythim of the battle, and your oponent reacts. It's quite instructive.

Here in Spain we play 2400-3000 points; I started my tries with Coven with S7 banishment and BoH and although against some targets are very juicy (like sphynx) usually is overkill. Now always S6 and still not missed S7 and dropped BoH.

Regarding Bsb; never leave home without it, cause the first critical LD you'll fail, you'll regret it. I've used with RGOH and when miscast and every caster suffer a S6 hit you begin to cold sweat, so instead I use a more combat oriented BSB (helm reroll armour and guardian phoenix on full armoured horse), but again, i bring 2 five men dragon princes unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:51 am 
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Hey pedrogzc,

Glad to hear you're having some success running a Coven style list as well. I tend to find that in my 2500 point games, where I can comfortably fit in S7 banishment, I'm very happy I have it for the damage throughput on T5 & 6 monsters. Have you tried the 2 x Banishment setup? I find that once you crunch through the opponent's magic defense items (typically first turn), it is very much superior. You almost always get one banishment off, which is on par with the book, and often you can get out another. 4D6 S7 hits is enough to level pretty much anything in the game.

Regarding the BSB - I'm on the fence about this one, as the community seems to be too. Running without one is high risk, high reward. I have lots of tools built into the list to help deal with leadership tests, and in return for dropping it I get access to a more overwhelming magic phase. However, as this game pointed out, there will definitely be times when I wish I did bring one. It's going to come down to playing the list a few more times, and really evaluate if the benefit gained is worth what I give up in reliability.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:28 pm 
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The thing with not having a BSB - indeed the thing with anything in Warhammer - is that when risk is involved, sometimes things will go badly. Regardless of probabilities etc, that tiny fraction will occur every now and then. Whether this is failing a cold-blooded re-rollable LD10 test or losing an elite unit to a redirector, one must anticipate that it will happen at some point.

As such, I can tell you right now that you will lose games due to not having the BSB. It's only a question of time. However, you will also win games because of what you took instead of the BSB. Putting these two up against eachother and evaluating the benefits / drawbacks of both can be a good place to start. In reality though, chances are that you'll simply have to figure out what suits your playstyle best. Also, it's way easier to realize when the absence of a BSB is critical and thus be biased about it. The chances you have made in your list due to saving points from the BSB are much more subtle and it's hard to detect their impact.

Another question is - without a BSB, what is the optimal configuration to provide increased psychological reliability?

Number one I think is to get the Gem of Courage on one of your mages. Keep him in the unit with your Archmage to ensure that your biggest unit (points-wise) has the best chance of passing that critical test. This means the Lions are 'naked'. However, this just conveniantly frees up the Guardian to carry perhaps the most vital item your army could ever need - the Dragonhorn. As far as I know, nobody takes this item any more. However, for what it does and in your army I believe this can be an extremely effective choice! It basically allows you to mitigate the fact that your BSB isn't around when you know shit's going to start hitting the fan ;)

I don't know if you've considered this before, but I thought I'd mention it. When looking at unconventional approaches, suddenly new items, choices and combinations are starting to seem like really good choices. Often times, we don't even consider this as we would never take them under normal circumstances.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:23 pm 
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hey brewmaster,

nice report, and i agree that the ability to out-deploy almost any opponent is the main strength of MSU armies. its just lovely to identify which unit you dont want to fight, and be able to indeed make that happen (until turn 5 or something)

i agree with the other s7 is probably not worth it in this 2200 setting. if you do want to include a bsb without losing elites, one option might be to lose the ring of corin, although i agree it's uses can be awesome:
ditch the lvl 1, give the crystal to the AM and take a bsb with radient gem. just something to think about :)

btw for curu:
i know you are debating about replacing the dragonprinces with a unit of swordmasters. i agree that swordmasters increase your damage output but this battle shows the utility factor of the princes. deploying on the weak flank, high enough movement to make it anywhere, and expandable enough to make a charge, to in this case hold up a unit for a few turns. not saying one or the other is better but just something to consider


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:40 pm 
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i agree with Olannon, in this case the drawbacks can be fully catastrophical. In my last game just before the crucial charge my WL horde must panic test on 10 because a fleeing unit and failed... BSB was 11", thanks to reroll i was able to overcome the situation but otherwise is game over if in the enemy turn the unit i charged.... And as Nigel Stillman said, a unit (and an army) without a banner isn't a unit but a skirmishers gang :)

On 2500 i haven't tried Coven, but on 3000 my combination is lvl 1 with sigil or dispersion (it seem i cannot ever get 4+ to break spell!), lvl 2 seer with pha and banishment and lvl 4 with annuli cristal; miss the corin ring, but cannot afford a four mage.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:12 pm 
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I vote for BsB with RGoH.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Hey Guys!

Thanks all for the replies. I've been wrestling over this one for a while now, as I'm sure you can tell.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Number one I think is to get the Gem of Courage on one of your mages. Keep him in the unit with your Archmage to ensure that your biggest unit (points-wise) has the best chance of passing that critical test. This means the Lions are 'naked'. However, this just conveniantly frees up the Guardian to carry perhaps the most vital item your army could ever need - the Dragonhorn. As far as I know, nobody takes this item any more. However, for what it does and in your army I believe this can be an extremely effective choice! It basically allows you to mitigate the fact that your BSB isn't around when you know shit's going to start hitting the fan ;)


I totally agree regarding the Gem of Courage - I think if I'm going to have a bunker with the coven in it, it's important to provide some sort of leadership test mitigation beyond just leadership 10. This then begs the question of whether I should just combine the archers into one big unit? One less drop, but less chance of getting rolled by a rat dart, or by panic checks.

With regards to the Dragon Horn - I've looked at this item before, but if memory serves, I dismissed it because of the limitation of only being able to use it during a High Elf turn. I would take it in a heartbeat if it essentially allowed me to ignore panic checks during one enemy turn. Having said that, there could very well be some merit there if I'm moving towards less investment in unit specific leadership items. Here's a list of the leadership aiding items I can think of off the top of my head - I'd love it if anyone could add to the list!

- Dragonhorn
- Gem of Courage
- Gleaming Pennant
- Standard of Balance
- Banner of Discipline
- Various fear/terror causing items
- Potion of Foolhardiness (if a character/champ has this, does the immune to psychology extend to the unit?)

de kaasboer wrote:
if you do want to include a bsb without losing elites, one option might be to lose the ring of corin, although i agree it's uses can be awesome:
ditch the lvl 1, give the crystal to the AM and take a bsb with radient gem. just something to think about :)


This is what it really comes down to. Do I need that ring bad enough to warrant losing leadership rerolls? Essentially all this discussion comes down to this basic question: What are the magic items out there that I have no way of dealing with and will result in a loss for me? Again, another list, and I'd love it if people helped me out here too:

- Hellheart is definitely at the top for me. Could potentially blow up my coven in one fell swoop.
- Pendant of Khaeleth
- Cursed Puppet
- Talisman of Preservation + Mark of Tzeentch
- Cupped Hands

Again, just off the top of my head. I'll flesh this out as things come to me.

@ Pedrogzc & Nicene - I'll plunk 2 more votes down for the BSB :)

Thanks again everyone for your input!

D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Quote:
- Potion of Foolhardiness (if a character/champ has this, does the immune to psychology extend to the unit?)


i dont think it extends to the unit. it says the imbiber gets the rule, not the unit. and normally character rules do not cary over. (similar example: mark of slaanesh (Immune to fear terror panic) on a character does not give the unit he joins the same rules. this essentially makes the mark kinda pointless for characters but thats a different story)

Quote:
What are the magic items out there that I have no way of dealing with and will result in a loss for me?


-the VC game-breakers are gone with the release of the new book, which shortens the list quite a lot.
-crown of command can be considered gamebreaking i think, especially on characters in the 2nd rank (looking at ogres here) or insane-save guys (WoC, DE, lizards can do this to some extend) but those were already listed
- book of hoeth

then there are a list of very useful-to-destroy-but-not-necessarily-game-breaking items:
-powerdice generating, storing or stealing items, 5+ ward for savage orcs, -2 LD banner, doomrocket etc


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
- Potion of Foolhardiness (if a character/champ has this, does the immune to psychology extend to the unit?)
Nope, it is pretty useless.


For other items, the biggest is the Daemon Banner of Sundering. If you cannot unmake it, you almost certainly lose. By most interpretations of the wacky FAQ wording, the FAQ makes the Daemon banners magic items, so you can unmake them. But that wording is so wierd, not everyone may agree.
Power Scroll on a Grey Seer, or Doomrocket if you can get it early, are awesome uses of Ring of Corin.
If you could ever get it off against Dwarfs, you can unmake much of a Dwarf Runelord's magic defense in one go. He would still be worth +2 dice, but taking out the equivalent of the Annulian Crystal and one or two scrolls is big.
Getting rid of the Terror Mask would help a lot against TK.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
With regards to the Dragon Horn - I've looked at this item before, but if memory serves, I dismissed it because of the limitation of only being able to use it during a High Elf turn.


Luckily for you, memory doesn't serve ;)

"...All friendly High Elf models may re-roll any failed Rally and Psychology tests until the start of their next turn" (emphasis mine)

I guess this drastically changes your view on this item?

As for BSB vs no BSB - because of its radical approach you're unlikely to gain a lot of votes for the non-BSB option. I would add Lion Standard to your list by the way.

Items that could be game-breaking (that haven't been addressed) which can be taken out by corin:
- dispel scroll (if they're out of DD and still have their scroll saved, use the Corin!)
- greedy fist
- annulian crystal
- sacrifical dagger
- ring of hotek
- various VC damage items (e.g. +3A blade on Ghoulking with PoS)
- Banner of Sorcery
- beastmen make-all-arcane-items-explode-item

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:38 am 
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Well... that certainly makes things more interesting! Note to self: read things more carefully, especially stuff I've overlooked for years. For 25 points I could have an army-wide BSB on the game turn of my choosing. Considering turn 1 and 2 are the key panic turns, this item is pure gold. It also circumvents one of the biggest issues that I found with running smaller units and a BSB - range. It was somewhat constricting keeping them within his bubble, and the Dragonhorn avoids this problem entirely. Thanks so much for pointing this out Curu!

I'm confident that I can make the BSB free approach work with this item and a bit of foresight. This allows me to keep the Ring of Corin, because frankly, the list of things I don't want to deal with is getting pretty long!

Thanks for the input guys. Incidentally, my next match will be against Vampire Counts at 2200 points. This will be a great opportunity to test it out versus a list that will tax my leadership to its brink.

Thanks again for reading everyone!

D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Hey Guys!

Just a quick update about where I'm at - Painting, painting, painting. My spearmen are almost done, so I'll try to get photos of them up once they're a finished product.

In terms of battles - I get my long awaited rematch versus the Warriors of Chaos player who kicked my butt back in December. He's fielding Beastmen now, which is unfortunate for me because I know little about this army. I did a bit of scouting on the last league night to get an idea of what I'm up against (hey, it's only fair - he's played my list already :P).

Here's what I could discern at a glance:

Shaman Lord & BSB in a big block of Gors with AHW
Beastlord in a block of bestigors
a block of 15 ungors with 2 shamans in it

A block of 6 x 5 gors

2 small units of ungor skirmishers
2 small units of harpies

2 chariots

So seeing as I have no clue what kinds of tricks beastmen have up their sleeves, I implore you, fellow forum dwellers, what types of things should I watch out for, and what should I be gunning for with my Ring of Corin?

Thanks in advance!

D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:51 pm 
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If he runs a horde of gors with BSB, that means the BSB has the +1 strength banner. That is worth unmaking.

The extra two shamans would indicate one has the herdstone, which is a terrain piece that makes more power dice for nearby shamans. You would want to do some research on how Vaul's Unmaking interacts with that.

Beastlord can have various items, although most will be common items. The one unique one to maybe worry about is the Ramhorn Helm - every time he makes an armour save, he gets to make another attack. With a really good re-rollable armour save, that can absolutely wreck your units.


In general, I think you blow up the chariots first and then pick one of the big units to pound on.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Hi Brewmaster!

A few random thoughts in addition to what dabber has just said:

1. Beastmen have average Ld so if you can destroy a chariot that causes some panic tests nearby, preferably outside the bubble of BSB re-rolls.

2. Their primal fury is quite helpful but Gors are naked and only S3 so you can kill lot's of them. If you combine some spears in the combined charged, even a frontal attack might break them. Especially worth trying if he runs them in not that deep horde formation.

3. Bestigors can be tough so I would try to engage them from any direction but not from the front. With primal fury and S6 they can kill a lot even if striking last so minimizing these hits back can be very useful.

4. Charging chariots with cavalry can work too.

5. You might ask in your local group how they want to play unmaking vs. herdstone but I think it can be switched off. If you can - do it. It also tends to keep the shamen close and limit his movement options and sometimes even he might leave his wizards close by unprotected. In any case that stone can help him greatly to have a significant advantage in his magic phase so it would be good to think which spells you can let in and which save your dispel dice for as you might not be able to dispel them all.

Good Luck!:)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Thanks for the great tips guys! A lot of that stuff would have caught me off guard, I'm sure. That +1 Strength banner looks like a pain. I'll probably make that high priority for the Ring. The Ramhorn Helm I'm hoping I can deal with with a carefully timed Eagle charge in tandem with some elites. Of course, knowing my opponent he'll probably be packing the Crown of Command too.

What about ambush? Is that similar to how Gutter Runners etc work? Is it something I should be worried about?

D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
What about ambush? Is that similar to how Gutter Runners etc work? Is it something I should be worried about?
Beastmen ambush sucks. It is WORSE than 8th edition rulebook ambush, as the arrival location, if they arrive, is usually random. Also note that he has to tell you what units he has in ambush, although it is not clear if that is before or after normal deployment; it is certainly before turn 1.

Now in position to look up the FAQs, it appears Vaul's Unmaking vs the Herdstone is clear. From the Beastmen FAQ, the Shard can "be destroyed or removed from play". I think I would leave the terrain piece, but make it just an impassable block with no more special rules. I'm sure it can be argued based on the HE FAQ, but the Beastmen FAQ is exactly on point, so that should carry the day.

Depending upon what you can engage his BSB with, unmaking the +1 strength banner is not necessarily best. Using White Lions or Swordmasters, your odds of killing him in one round are about 50-50, and he really should be dead before his troops can swing a second time.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:55 pm 
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@dabber: I confirm they is no reason to be afraid of the beastmen ambush rules.

Can't wait for the battle report incoming !


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:18 am 
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Hey Guys!

Well, I had a bit of a turn of events on Thursday night's game night - my long anticipated rematch with the Warriors of Chaos (recently turned Beastmen) opponent was postponed! The opponent called the store and let them know he wasn't going to make it, so I subjected myself to the random opponent selection. The showing yesterday was amazing - every table was filled, so there was a pool of about 16 people to draw from.

Who do you think I drew, but my first Daemon opponent in this edition. It was just a matter of time before I got a chance to test my mettle against a greater Daemon.


You Shall Not Pass!

Now this match up requires a bit of lead up. Herein lies the account of my exchange with this guy before the fight:

Me: "So what army are you fielding?"

Him: *smug grin* "Daemons"

Me: "Oh right on, have you had much success with them?"

Him: "Let's just say in my last match, there were no enemies left on the table, and lots and lots of Daemons"

Me: "Interesting... So pretty successful then"

Him: "Well, you'll see"

Me (In my head): Oh, it's on like Donkey Kong.


Army Lists

Daemons

Bloodthirster, Obsidian Armour, Axe of Khorne, Immortal Fury
Herald of Khorne, BSB, Great Standard of Sundering, Some other stuff
Herald of Khorne, some stuff (Neither of these guys equipment mattered much beyond the standard of sundering)
Herald of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, Winged Horror, Lore of Life

31 x Bloodletters, Full Command, Icon of Endless War
31 x Bloodletters, Full Command, Icon of Endless War

5 x Flesh Hounds
5 x Flesh Hounds

5 x Flamers, Pyrocaster

High Elves

Some changes made before going to the game night

Archmage, Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix, Jewel of the Dusk
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Gem of Courage
Mage, Anullian Crystal

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
17 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Dragonhorn
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

A couple changes here. First, the Dragonhorn makes the list. After Curu pointed out to me that it lasts for one full game turn, I was sold that this was a key item in a BSB free list. The only tough part is identifying the key turn to use it on

Second change is on the Archmage. I opted for the invincible build with +1 power dice. I like the idea of a worst case scenario giving me +2 power dice - I'm still on the fence between this and the +1 to cast, mainly due to the increase in reliability in casting the bubbled timewarp.

Edit: Forgot to include my spells

Archmage: Shem's, Pha's, Banishment, Timewarp
Ring Mage: Speed of Light
Crystal Mage: Light of Battle

Deployment

With only 6 drops, I have the luxury of watching his army go down before I have to worry about committing to anything.

Image

Because of this advantage, I'm able to create some favourable matchups; Dragon Princes & White Lions on the flank with the flamers, and swordmasters + Spears versus his bloodletters. It doesn't come much better than that!

We roll off, and I win first turn

High Elves, Turn 1

Image



I know I have the ranged advantage with Banishment doing 3D6 hits, so I opt for a conservative advance. I move the Lions up far enough to threaten any aggressive advancing by the thirster in the East, and the Dragon Princes far enough up to create a threat zone for his flamers.

**DISCLAIMER**

My opponent does not reveal to me that he has the standard of sundering until the END of this phase. My reaction: "Dude... you have to tell me that you have that thing and pick a lore at the start of the game"

We roll the winds, and it's 5 & 1. The banner adds 3 and add the jewel, making the dice 10 v 5.

I throw 4 dice at banishment on his thirster with my level 2 (again, not knowing he had the banner) and roll a 5, 5, 5 and 6. I internally facepalm as I realize he hasn't brought a spellbreaker; he rolls his 5 dice and fails to dispel it.

12 hits, 9 wounds, 5 after his ward rerolls. Not much unlike the story I wrote some 8 months ago, the Bloodthirster crumples to the ground in a smoldering heap. I'm also upping the production value in my battle reports - that is an authentic nuclear explosion photoshopped on top of him!

I throw 3D6 at a banishment on his flamers with my Archmage and succeed - 11 hits, 7 wounds after wards

I wish I could have inconspicuously taken a picture of his face at this point.

Finally, I throw 3D6 at a bubbled pha's protection rolling a 1, 1 & 2. Much to my chagrin, he now reveals the standard. I don't put up too much fuss and take my miscast - I roll a 7 thankfully, and kill 2 archers.

Shooting is ineffective, with cover on the fleshounds.

Daemons, Turn 1

Image

Confident in his ability to get a turn 2 charge with his Icons, he moves up to about 15" away from my units.

His flamers move up, and so does his herald of tzeentch, which stays right behind the unit (which looks nearly identical to a flamer...)

Magic is 8 v 7 - He throws 3 at throne of vines and rolls relatively low. I throw 3 of my own dice, and roll relatively lower, failing to dispel.

3 more dice go at a regrowth on his flamers, but he fails to meet the casting value, ending his phase.

The flamers roll low for their shots, and the lion pelts protect the lions resulting in only one casualty.

High Elves, Turn 2

Image

Due to his bragging about the speed of his army at the beginning of the game, I suspect he's got +D6 to his first charge, so I offer him some eagles. The Dragon Princes charge the flamers and he stands and shoots. I then inform him of the Dragon Prince's 2+ ward versus flaming attacks.

Him: "Flaming, *magical* attacks"
Me: "and..."
Him: "Magical attacks negate wards"
Me: "That's not even remotely right" (can anyone tell me if this used to be the case in a previous edition? Or if he just made that up on his own?)

Magic is 4 & 1. I roll 3 for the banner, 1 for the jewel and 1 from channeling. This brings the total to 10 v 4.

I like my odds of 6D6 vs. 4D6+2, so I throw them at the ring of Corin. I roll high, and he lets me have it; the banner of sundering takes a dirt nap. I then attempt a 2D6 Pha's on my spears, but get snakeyes, and he dispels my archmage's attempt on 2D6.

Shooting sees me put 3 wounds on the hounds, but they save them all with their 5+ ward.

In combat, I manage 3 wounds on the Flamers, and they do none in return. However, a break test roll of 3 has him holding the princes in place and not taking the final wound.

Daemons, Turn 2

Image

He has no choice but to spend his +D6 charge range on my eagles (given the proliferation of chaff units, I hardly see how this thing is worth it...). His hounds, suprisingly, charge my White Lions instead of the Dragon Princes.

Magic is 3 v 4 - he throws it all at flesh to stone on his fleshounds engaged with the White Lions - I throw my 4 dice to dispel and fail miserably. My White Lions are now facing T8 fleshounds...

Combat sees predictable results in the West - Both eagles die, but he opts not to overrun, hoping I fail a charge with some of my elites. His flesh hounds only manage 1 wound on the White Lions, and they deal none in return. However, due to my rank, standard and banner I win by one, but he passes his instability test. The Dragon Princes manage the final wound on the flamers, and reform to face the West.

High Elves, Turn 3

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First thing's first - the White Lion champion blows the Dragonhorn! I predict a lot of fear (and maybe break tests in the case of the lions) this turn.

I issue charges with 3 of my units; the Standard of Balance Swordmasters (in the East), the spears and the Dragon Princes.

I move my Archmage's bunker up far enough to get all of my units in the area of effect buffs, and we move on to the magic phase

The dice are 6 & 2, with me rolling 1 channel, 2 for the banner and 1 for the jewel; 12 v 6.

I start with a 2D6 single target Pha's with my Level 2 on the White Lions, which he allows. I follow that up with a 2D6 Speed of Light on the Dragon Princes, which he allows as well. I then attempt a 3D6 Pha's bubble with my Archmage, but fail the casting roll - can't win 'em all.

Shooting sees me put 7 wounds on his herald of tzeentch, and him save every. single. one.

In combat, it is predictably bloody. First, I pass all of my fear tests, with one or two being due to the Dragonhorn rerolls. Between all of the troops, I manage 16 wounds on his bloodletters. He does 4 wounds back on the Swordmasters (sans hatred due to the standard), and he rolls incredibly low for his instability again. He is left with 5 bloodletters and his herald.

Daemons, Turn 3

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In come his second unit of bloodletters on my spearmen, and his dogs move behind the blocks to try to defend the assault from the East.

He rolls a 2 & 1 for magic, and I roll a channel making the total 2 v 4. I dispel his attempt at flesh.

In combat, I kill what remains of his Eastern Bloodletters, and soak up a fair number of casualties with the spears. They fail their initial break test, but the Dragonhorn reroll keeps them in the fight.

Despite their drop in toughness with flesh wearing off, the Lions only manage one wound on the fleshounds. They hold... on a reroll, once again thanks to the Dragonhorn. Best 25 points I've ever spent? I'm thinking so.

High Elves, Turn 4

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I declare a charge with my swordmasters, my Dragon Princes on his fleshounds and my swordmasters on his bloodletters. It doesn't pan out quite as I planned, as the Dragon Princes block the swordmasters by a couple fractions of an inch from making their wheel. In retrospect, the Princes should have gone on the bloodletters and the Swordmasters on the Flesh Hounds. Oh well.

Magic is 4 & 1 - I add 2 for the banner, channel and add the Jewel. 9 v 4 total.

I throw 3D6 at a banishment at his herald with my level 2, which he dispels with 4 of his dice. I then put up a bubbled pha's protection with 3 and a Timewarp on my White Lions with another 3.

Shooting sees me fail once again to kill his herald due to ward saves, and we move on to combat.

The spears, now at full attacks, and the swordmasters manage a whopping 15 wounds, and his hatred was spent on the round he charged in on the spears; I win combat big, and he rolls high for his instability. The Bloodletters pop, and the swordmasters overrun into his herald.

At this point he concedes the game

Him: "I guess you've got to lose once and a while to stay humble"

After battle thoughts

I realize fully that this guy was a terrible player. I can't even begin to count the mistakes he made - not aggressive enough Turn 1, parking his Tzeentch herald behind his vulnerable flamers, not knowing his own rules regarding the standard, not hording the bloodletters - the list goes on!

Having said that.

Things that worked

- I blew up a Bloodthirster turn 1. That. Was. Awesome. Why this guy had no dispel scrolls is beyond me
- The Dragonhorn was a VIP in this match. I had my doubts in my ability to pick the right turn to use it, but it really payed dividends this game.
- The Jewel of the Dusk added a couple things to this match - first, it adds a bit more stability to my magic phase, making low winds rolls even more optimal for me. A roll of 4 & 1 isn't that bad when you're adding 4 power dice on average. Second, it adds intimidation to the magic phase. An extra power dice your opponent can see and fear, wheras a +1 is relatively intangible. Jury's still out which one is better; I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to test more.
- As always, the Eagles were key. They provided the speed bump that I needed to get into position. It's no co-incidence that my entire strategy changes when there is a good chance my eagles can die first turn versus cannons.
- The Ring of Corin. Banner of Sundering. I need say no more.
- Stubborn White Lions. These guys held those flesh hounds in place despite some bad odds against them (Toughness 8 hounds!). Any other of our elites would have fled that combat.

Things that didn't

- At the end of the day, casting with an 80% chance of success means that 1 in 5 spells fails. This is something that needs to be accepted and accounted for.
- Forliath's Robes. This is the one situation where it is utterly useless. I had to treat my Archmage like a regular mage. It raises an interesting point though - if my bunkers need to follow my combat units regardless for high strength banishment, do I really need him in a combat unit?


As always, I'd love to hear your comments and criticism. My tournament is quickly approaching!

D

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Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:13 am 
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Hey Brewmaster!
What a game. It went so well its hard to see if you could've played it any better :)

On to the list. I think the dragon horn might be the way to go for you. Considering that losing the BSB gives you another arcane item, I think you would be better off keeping it this way. Against an all-fear causing army, you managed alright. Of course it will be difficult sometimes to choose the right turn to activate it, but I think for the advantages you gain in other departments, its worth it, especially the Ring. I've been considering including it in my list atm, since it will give me a way to combat DE dread lords and the like. (something I realised after your post.)

You really showed your opponent...I love how badly you broke this guy. I mean. That sounds nasty but that's not exactly what I mean. Some people just need to be cut down to size, you know? :)

On the robes - The hidden issue is always that when running with the elites, miscasts will seriously hurt. You know that, of course. But I feel that it cannot be stressed enough. I think perhaps you should try leaving the robe at home, at least for a game or two, considering that keeping the AM in a unit of elites might lead to situations where the elites want to go one way, but the coven is staying put, etc.

Well done on your last game, btw. I' super excited about this tournament of yours, I'm sure you'll do great - especially considering that your list is inherently strong against one of the typical power armies :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:18 am 
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Hi Brewmaster!

Congratulations on your win! Although your magic phase was so brilliant that other elements can go unnoticed I especially admire your moevement phase. There is a lot for me to learn from you and I am glad I can see by example how it should be done :)

Let's move onto comments in no particular order :)

1. That nuke explosion was simply great! I was thinking about incorporating some nice graphics after seeing reports by Rogue Sun but this is yet another example showing how great diagrams can be with little pictures :D

2. There is a rule about Forest Spirits that says their ward save is negated by magical attacks but I do not remember it was the case for any other army/unit/situation. Maybe he simply got it wrong as he seems to be a beginner from your description.

3. Can you switch off deamonic icons with Vaul's Unmaking? I was under the impression they are like chaos gifts where it is explicitly stated they cannot be destroyed in the same fashion as magic items.

4. What is the formation of your Swordmasters? I presume 7 x 2. This is one example showing why formation 5 wide could be more beneficial to you. On the other hand,judging from diagram you could have reformed Spearelves first so they are not shifted towards right and then your Swordmasters could have wheeled properly (I think, diagrams can be misleading :)) Of course the other charge you have described is always an option. In the end it all went right for you so it is more for being aware for the future (and for myslef too :))

5. I guess your opponent was a little too arrogant but I like to give myself a benefit of a doubt and not to judge him. Maybe he indeed is a beginner, had a couple of one sided games and that made him think of himself as very good general. That cold shower you gave him can be good for both of you. He will start thinking more about tactics against different armies and be more humble. It might simply transform him into a person against whom you like to play as you can have a proper challenge. If he was "forgetting" to tell you about various stuff at the beginning of the game on purpose - well, then it is his problem not yours. :) Especially that it seems you have a lot of other people to play with.

6. Archmage and his euipment - that is always tricky. Deamons are army of exceptions so whatever does not work against them might be of great benefit against other armies. You can always go for a compromise called Talisman of Preservation and have something that always works :)

7. Dragonhorn indeed is a good item and in this game you used it perfectly. :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:21 am 
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Well played mate.

Indeed, demonic ward saves used to be negated by magic attacks, just like with forest spirits in the WE army book... but that's been gone for quite awhile now...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:30 am 
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Hey Brewmaster, thanks for the report!

Your deployment was excellent in this game. You were able to get the matchups you wanted right out of the gate. Great use of the dragonhorn! A great addition to your roster, I think.

I think the jewel really adds a significant edge to your magic phase. It's subtle yet potent. You turned two 5/4 phases into 10/4 and 9/4 respectively. And also landed a 12/6 phase. That's adding a level of reliability to the coven and at a cost that is a steal in my opinion when you have as many arcane slots as you have.

Glad you handed this guy a devastating loss. Nice job!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:25 am 
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Awesome battle report! I was gritting my teeth in anticipation as I read your description of your first magic phase.

I believe Dragonhorn doesn't help with Break Tests (so your lions couldn't have rerolled that last one).

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:54 am 
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Very nicely played and the nuke is just pure gold :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:55 am 
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Nicene wrote:
I believe Dragonhorn doesn't help with Break Tests (so your lions couldn't have rerolled that last one).

Well played Sir, you're right, just Rally and Psychology.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:18 pm 
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~Milliardo wrote:
Indeed, demonic ward saves used to be negated by magic attacks, just like with forest spirits in the WE army book... but that's been gone for quite awhile now...

Since Storm of Chaos, if I recall. The designer's notes by Mr Cavatore included a reference to Daemons getting too easily shot up by Magical Skaven shooting. I wonder what he made of the fallout from the Daemon army book...

:)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Hey Guys!

Thanks for all of the comments!

First regarding the Dragonhorn - you guys are absolutely right, upon rereading the rules for it, it does not apply to Break tests. This shifts focus back to light of battle during rounds where a unit holding is critical to the overall strategy. Thanks for pointing this out! This would have come as a nasty suprise come tournament day. Having said that, this item is still amazing for break/fear tests in a BSB free army.

@ Cython - Glad you enjoyed it! It was really one of those "If you're going to talk the talk then walk the walk" type of situations. If you're going to tell me how awesome your army is and how badly I'm going to lose before the game even starts, then you'd better believe there's going to be no mercy coming your way in the match.

My biggest qualm in giving up the robes is that it's my only real answer (especially at 2200 points where I only have S6 Banishment) to things like Steamtanks and Sphinxes. I have no other real solution in my army other than to lock them down with an invincible archmage.

@ Swordmaster - Magic really stole the show here, you're right. Had I known that banner was in existence from the start, I might have switched up my casting strategy in the first turn, but other than that I was pretty happy with the results. A few fails, but nothing critical.

1. Haha, that nuke is about the extent of my photoshop skills. It's certainly nothing compared to what Roguesun used to produce. Maybe I'll experiment a bit more in the next report as well.

2. Believe it or not, this guy has actually been around for a while. This match was especially sweet because back in the fall I went out for drinks after a league night with everyone, and as we were sitting around regaling tales of our battles, he'd always add in comments about how indestructable his Bloodthirster is, and how it would have killed this and that.

3. I seem to recall dabber mentioning that this was kind of a grey area. I'm hoping he can fill me in on where the dispute lies. My opponent accepted it though, and I figured I was due one concession in rules after my first magic phase.

4. You're spot on here - I had an opportunity to reform those swordmasters at the end of combat to be 5 wide; this would have fit them in no problem. I didn't want to reform the spears over because I had just the right amount of frontage to get all of the southern Swordmasters in, so I think reforming the Eastern ones would have been the best idea. The Princes charging the flank would have also worked - I just didn't think this through enough.

5. I agree totally. If nothing else, this guy will hopefully not underestimate me again, and I think I pointed out a few weaknesses in his list as well. I expect a much better challenge next time.

6. See my comments to Cython regarding the robes.

@ Milliardo - Thanks man! This probably explains where he got the idea.

@ Bolt Thrower - This is what I'm loving about the magic phase - high winds rolls are good, and low winds rolls are GREAT. It brings an element of reliability to an otherwise completely random phase. Given how much my list relies on magic, it really is a steal

Thanks again to everyone that pointed out regarding the Dragon Horn and break tests. I will certainly factor this in to my strategies in the future.

D

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Classic scenario.

Guy with a top-tier book wins some games but doesn't learn much. Runs into guy with mid-tier book that has
tools against his own and knows exactly how to use them.

You'be got an awesome magic phase Brewmaster. As said, where were his Spellbreakers? Of course this remains a Daemon army of course, you still have to play well to beat it.

Augurs well though, doesn't it?

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:29 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Of course this remains a Daemon army of course, you still have to play well to beat it.


My sentiments exactly - I'm confident this opponent is used to riding the coattails of the strength of his book, and has never had to pay much mind to things like good redirection and force concentration. Having said that, we've all been there; everyone reaches a point where things start to click for them, and they start getting used to a certain type of opponent, then along comes somebody who plays differently, forcing you to re-evaluate everything you've learned up until that point.

My guess is that this guy is used to brute forcing his way through the magic phase: "-1S, -1T on my Bloodthirster? Bring it on!" or "Dwellers below? My core is S5 base lol". Hopefully this match will help him fill some holes in his tactics and make him an overall stronger player. That's how I look at my defeats.

SpellArcher wrote:
Augurs well though, doesn't it?


I'm sure hoping so. As with any dice based game, a degree of luck is involved, but I've got high hopes for the upcoming tournament!

D

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Holy daemon-pwnage, Batman!

Brutal, just brutal magic phase, D. You have so many dice and so many different spells and so many killer spells that I can think of few magic phases deadlier and more flexible than this one. You've created a monster. Of course your list is brittle in other ways, in deployment (if you're looking for spell bubbles), against shooting (if you're not) and (notably) leadership, but your item choices wonderfully counter this weakness. There's also a fantastic tactical synergy between your elite infantry and your magic. If I were your opponent (using any army), I'd want to get into combat as quickly as possible to avoid those Banishments, but this plays into your hands in another way, since your elites want to get into combat as quickly as possible rather than get shot! Tricky :)

On the Robe, I'd say you've gotta keep it. Once you start losing your mages (especially the banishment casters), your evil magical synergy will start to fall apart- this is bad when you've invested so many points in it. Keeping the archmage alive is therefore pretty crucial. You don't get to use it against daemons, of course, but I don't really mind this myself since, against daemons, our core troops perform really well and so redress the balance nicely.

Anyway: well played; fierce list; looking forward to following more of your battles.

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