Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:54 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 648 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 22  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:50 pm
Posts: 1393
Location: Tor Skylla, Saraeluii Mountains
Statistically, what does a S7, 3D6 Banishment do to a Terrorgheist anyway?

Great write up, Mr. D. :3


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:26 am
Posts: 159
Location: Ontario, CA
I like the write up D! Makes a lot of sense. How do you think the coven would work in a mobile format? In the recent White Dwarf they mounted a Mage and ran it in a dragon prince unit. Got me thinking one archmage on foot and two mounted level ones might be fun if a little expensive.

_________________
KO's Painting Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:05 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7798
Location: Queensland, Australia
I keep comparing Light to Heavens, and fluff wise Heavens wins for my mage, he's a weather worker, but seeing as though I've cleared out the dawi from the caves, I might switch to Light so I can see where I'm going next battle.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:21 pm
Posts: 112
Location: England :) Home of Dragons!
~Milliardo~ wrote:
Statistically, what does a S7, 3D6 Banishment do to a Terrorgheist anyway?

Great write up, Mr. D. :3

Almost exactly (5.83333 wounds) kills it if my memory is correct for the stats.

_________________
Warhost of Caledor: The 3 houses of the Darkspine Descent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:15 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
KarsaOrlong wrote:
How do you think the coven would work in a mobile format?
There is little benefit to mounting any HE Mage, but I see literally none with a Light Mage. The most common spells have 24" range and/or are magic missiles.
Putting a Mage in Dragon Princes is pretty much a waste. He removes a DP worth of attacks from combat, and personally should die the first round against almost anything. If you load the unit up with characters to force the Mage to the second rank, you really should just be fielding Silver Helms.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Guys!

Thanks for all the wonderful responses. Really makes writing up things like these worthwhile.

@ Tethlis - It's so funny that the Coven is your #2 choice. If I had to switch, it would definitely be to a Shadow based list similar to yours. I love the idea of the Phoenix Guard + Prince combo, and it would be a nice change to run a combat character as well.

@ Curu - Also very funny - I've been going down this path in my head for a bit now. Basically since I learned that the tournament in March was going to be 2200 points, I've been trying to figure out how to shave off some points from the list, and the BSB was hovering over the chopping block. Your post here was the tipping point for me to try it out. Let's just say that my battle report of my battle from last night might interest you ;)

@ Swordmaster - Sounds good to me! That's a ton of games, and should give us a ton of material to analyze and really put the lores under a lens.

I'm glad you brought up the point about synergy. In this case it's a combination of synergy and redundancy - for example pit of shades and miasma technically have synergy versus high initiative troops. The combination of the two effects achieve something much greater than they could individually. However, where the two spells fall short is redundancy. Eliminate either of those spells from the equation, and the formula doesn't really achieve anything near the desired effect. With the lore of light, you'll almost always get the effect you're after, with varying degrees of severity.

Regarding the effects of Pha's stacking - if a unit has 2 buffs on it, you resolve them both. Eg, 2x Timewarp means +2 attacks. Therefore when resolving a shot on the unit, you'd resolve both buffs before they can shoot. At least this was the way dabber (I think?) explained it to me a while ago, and I'm pretty sure he wrote the rulebook. ;)

~Milliardo~ wrote:
Statistically, what does a S7, 3D6 Banishment do to a Terrorgheist anyway?


It makes them wish they'd stayed dead ;)

@Karsa - I agree with Dabber. With the low cost and incredible range of the coven's offensive spells, there really isn't much need to be mobile. Having said that, I think there *is* a place for a mobile list when paired with the lore of light. 2x Timewarps via the seerstaff would be a very interesting concept.

Thanks again everyone for the wonderful comments!

I'll be putting up my battle report from last night a bit later today, so keep an eye out

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Hi, just to go back to the Thorek game a page or two ago - the Anvil of Doom (including Thorek's) has a mighty toughness of 10- check the Dwarf FAQ. Might be helpful if your Dwarf opponents read it too. Hard to take any lessons from the game, as you'd have been wounding on 6s, and Thorek almost certainly would've got off that crucial Miner charge otherwise (and who knows what else). I demand a rematch! :D

NB I only know this rule because I once hit an Anvil of Doom with a rock lobber and killed it outright. That was a less than 1/3 chance of hitting, 1/3 chance of wounding, 1/2 for getting past the ward save, and 1/3 chance of getting the 5 wound required to TAKE HIM OFF (yes I gleefully bawled that when it happened). Mad skillz, that was.

Also, lovely article on Lore of Light. Any chance you could add in a quick summary of why the Seer Staff allows you to have double banishments? I know why, you know why, most the thread knows why, but as Giladis demonstrates, even experienced players still struggle getting their heads around the concept. It'd be real nice to have a quick little paragraph of reasoning that can be quickly referenced whenever this comes up (rather than in the rules forum, where the thread quickly drops off the page). Many thanks if you do, if not, no worries, was just a thought :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
@ Stormie - Oh man, I'm glad they FAQ'd that. I was worried that Thorek was a little too easy to kill... :S However, the match would have likely still ended the same way - as detailed earlier, it is not legal for the Miners to charge in the turn they arrive, so the combat with Thorek was unavoidable.

I'll edit in a section at the end of my article detailing how the Seerstaff lets you double up once I'm done this battle report


Scorched Earth

Last night I finally got my fated match against a player in our group who recently purchased the Carmine Dragon. For those who don't know, it's the same model that Curu is using for his Dragon Lord, and it is fantastic. Naturally, he's been fielding it a lot in order to break it in, and let's just say he's been on an absolute tear. So far he's walked through 3 matches like it's nothing, two of which were Empire lists touting 3 cannons. Here is his list, with only what I know from memory, so it'll be short on magic items:

Chaos Lord, Chaos Dragon, Stream of Corruption, 5+ ward save, Great Weapon
BSB, Warhorse + Barding
Chaos Sorceror, Mark of Tzeentch, Dispel Scroll, Level 2
Chaos Sorceror, Mark of Slaneesh, Cursed Puppet, Level 2

40 x Marauders, Great Weapons, Full Command
18 x Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Tzeentch, Banner of Rage

5 x Chaos Knights, Standard, Blasted Standard

Chaos Warshrine
Hellcannon
Chaos Spawn

Sparse on the support units without a doubt, but still lots to worry about. 3 breath weapons on the Dragon... I don't even know what to say for that...

About an hour before the match, I read Curu's post a bit earlier in this thread, and decided, what the heck? Let's give it a go. I shuffled some points around, and voila!

Archmage, Level 4, Book of Ashur, Guardian Phoenix - 355 (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Pha's and Banishment) - 165
Mage, Anullian Crystal - 140 (Lore of Light)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Ironcurse Icon - 125 (Lore of Light)

34 x Spearmen, Full Command - 331
10 x Archers, Standard, Banner of Discipline - 135
14 x Archers, Musician - 159

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance - 267
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant - 227
17 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage - 345
5 x Dragon Princes - 150

2 x Great Eagles - 100

Total: 2499

BSB out. +5 to cast and +6 to dispel in. To circumvent the leadership problems that come with having no BSB, I've included some form of leadership test mitigation on each unit of elite infantry. The core all has Ld10 from the Archmage. I was nervous - not taking a BSB is a big step. What better army to test it against than a hellcannon toting, Dragon Terrorizing Warriors list?

I'd like to take a second as well to talk about the Standard of Balance. In a BSB free list, just having immune to psychology is a huge boon. I have to be a bit more careful with positioning due to them losing their ability to flee a charge, however I think the tradeoff is worth it. In addition, the banner also removes frenzy and hatred from enemy units it is fighting against. Once I started to think about it, there are very few armies that this *doesn't* effect:

- Dark Elves (Witch Elves get hosed!)
- Savage Orc Hordes
- The entire WoC army
- Empire warrior priest spam
- Bloodletters
- Plague Monks
- Blood Knights
- Necrotects +Tomb Guard

I think that alone is a good enough list to justify a 45 point banner, and I'm sure there's a ton that just didn't spring into my head right away.

Let's see how it does in a match!

We roll for spells:

Tzeentch Sorceror: Flickering Fire, Gateway
Slaneesh Sorceror: Lash of Slaneesh, Ecstatic Seizures

Great, both spells that can really ruin my day...

Archmage: Net, Banishment, Light of Battle, Timewarp
Crystal Mage: Shem's Burning Gaze
Ring Mage: Speed of Light

Deployment

Image

I look at the way the terrain has gone down, and make a bit of an educated guess that the Dragon will try to approach from the East. I keep my archer bunkers further west, and keep the Western half of the board threatened with elites to dissuade an approach from that direction.

Sure enough, once his characters go down, the Dragon deploys to come around the building. I even go as far as measuring 20" in a circle from the building, and mark it with dice, so I can attempt to predict it's second turn movements.

In the end, I'm happy with the deployment - the coven is at least 2 turns away from the Dragon, which should give me the opportunity to chew though his magic defenses quickly and punish it with banishment.

Turn 1, Warriors of Chaos

Image

Like clockwork, the Dragon heads for the cover of the building, and the rest of his army advances swiftly. The Chaos Knights move up their full distance, so I assume he's got a trick up his sleeves there.

Magic is 7 v 8 due to the crystal and two successful channels. He decides to throw it all at ecstatic seizures on the White Lions, and of course rolls irresistable force. I groan as 9 of my warriors fall to the ground. His miscast gets puppetted to magical feedback, and only puts a wound on the slaneeshi sorceror.

In his shooting phase, his shot from the hellcannon is directed at my spears, but scatters off the board. He puts the Warshrine buff on the Knights, and gives them +1A. Yep, there's the trick.

Turn 1, High Elves

Image

A lot of careful movement here, so I'll do my best to explain. I issue a charge with both the Dragon Princes and Swordmasters - it's a gamble I hope will pay off. The Swordmasters are at average charge range, so there is a decent chance they won't make it. However, I see too much opportunity to pass up, so I roll my dice. As luck would have it, they both make it in. I've got an untouched unit of Swordmasters in combat for the first time in a long time, so I hope they can perform the way the math would lead me to believe.

The Eastern Eagle moves just beyond the combat - I've placed a ruler on top of the dragon to show my reasoning. With the Eagle in position, and the Dragon Princes just to the south, the Dragon's optimal location for unleashing his breath weapons is blocked due to the 1" rule. This effectively forces him into one spot - close range for my Coven :twisted:

The second Eagle moves up and offers two fronts to both units - its front will direct the marauders Westward (the have to overrun) and set him up for a killer flank charge from my swordmasters/spears. Additionally, its flank is presented to the Chaos Warriors, who also must overrun. This overrun would put them square into - you guessed it - the Standard of Balance toting Swordmasters and set them up for a counter charge from the spears in the flank. The banner also removes frenzy from the entire unit, decreasing the damage output versus our normally vulnerable spears as well. If he combo charges the eagle, he effectively has to choose between which trap he wants to walk in to, because one way or another, one unit is blocking the other.

Phew! what a mouthfull.

Magic roll is low, and with no channels the Banner of Sorcery bails me out by adding 3 power dice: 8 v 3. I lead off with a banishment from my level 2 on the dragon with 4 dice. It succeeds, and draws his scroll immediately. The archmage is just out of range still, so I toss two at pha's protection on the swordmasters. He dispels this with his three dice, leaving me free reign with my final two dice. I end up throwing it at the Ring of Corin, happily removing the puppet from the game. Without its magical properties, his sorceror feels very silly playing with a doll.

Shooting puts 5 wounds on the Marauders, and we move on to combat.

The Swordmasters show their worth once again, with their 21 attacks translating to a slightly above average 5 kills. The BSB puts two wounds on them in return, and fails his break test, killing him immediately. I hold and reform with the Dragon Princes, completing my living shield, and swing the Swordmasters around to threaten the flank of the Marauders - now he's got even less choices about where to go!

Warriors of Chaos, Turn 2

Image

The Dragon flies up to the spot I made for him, not wanting to risk failing a charge and losing the model without having a chance to unleash his breath weapons. He also declares charges with both the Marauders and the Warriors. He recognizes his troops need for some flank support, so he opts to move the hellcannon up instead of shooting it this turn.

Magic is 8 v 8, and he starts off with 4 dice on gateway on my unit of swordmasters. His roll is on the low end of average, and he gets his first taste of my +6 to dispel - I stop the spell with 3 of my own dice. He throws the rest at seizures on my spears, but I have the dice advantage as well at this point, and stop it in its tracks.

The dragon rears its ugly (but awesome) head and unleashes fiery and gassy hell on my troops. The gas breath goes on my Dragon Princes, forgetting their ward save also extends to breath weapons. One still takes a wound, however. The other two manage to get the edge of the Swordmaster unit, and they suffer 4 casualties, passing their leadership test.

The Warshrine puts +1 Attack on the Marauders, and in combat he opts to overrun with the Chaos Warriors first, slamming into my unit of swordmasters. This then blocks the marauders, who stay where they are.

High Elves, Turn 2: Judgement Day


Image

The spears take their flank charge, as do the unengaged swordmasters. I forget to do it in this picture, but the eagle moves up to redirect the warshrine, and the Dragon Princes reform to face the Warshrine as well. I also charge the lions in and march the archmage up to Timewarp range (Edit: Also not pictured. I really dropped the ball with Battle Chronicler here :P), hoping to deal with a huge chunk of his army in one fell swoop.

This is a critical magic phase for me, so naturally I roll a 1 & 2. Channels and the banner, however, make this a different story. The result is 6 v 2. Not perfect, but it'll do!

I start with 3 dice on banishment on the Dragon with my level 2, which he fails to dispel. 7 hits later, his lord is down to 1 wound, and the dragon takes 2.

I then cast it again with my archmage, and score 8 hits. His lord falls to the ground in a smoldering heap, and the dragon bellows in agony with only 1 wound left.

I resolve the Warriors combat first, putting 12 wounds on them between my two units. He then gives me a look like he's going to throw me in a snowbank when I reveal the Standard of balance, and his warriors only manage 8 casualties. They break, and the spears pursue into the marauder combat.

The swordmasters and spears shred through the marauders, and their 3 attacks isn't enough to match my wounds and static combat resolution. They break from combat, and I pursue them, catching them with both my units.

The unbuffed Lions do ok in combat, dishing out 3 wounds ( 1 crew, 2 cannon). A huge thunderstomp, however, dismantles the unit and kills them to a man.

At this point he concedes the game, only having supporting units and a 1 wound dragon left on the field.

After battle analysis

It only lasted two turns, but I guess that's all you can expect with a list like this - it's pretty much all or nothing. The entire game was paced by the Dragon/Banishment faceoff. Luckily I scored just enough power dice turn 2 to overwhelm his magic defenses and take it out.

So, my thoughts on a BSB-less list: Awesome. The standard of balance was icing on the cake in this matchup, and the other various items kept me from worrying too much about the leadership tests that I had to take. Statistically I'll fail more tests with a setup like this, but I feel I gain so much with the addition of the next arcane slot.

So my biggest struggle right now is picking between these two archmage setups:

Archmage, Book of Ashur, Level 4, Guardian Phoenix - He's vulnerable as hell, but he truly does dominate the magic phase. Even all these new +2 to cast items coming out can only level the playing field versus his dispelling power. His downfalls are that I have to be much more conservative with his positioning. Having said that, if I'm playing with the Banner of Discipline, my hands are tied with where he goes anyway.

vs.

Archmage, Jewel of the Dusk, Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix - This would let me run him in a combat unit, keeping him up in the battle lines and thus my combat buffs are easier to co-ordinate. He also adds another level of reliability to the magic phase by providing another guaranteed power dice.

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts! These two guys are neck and neck for me. I omitted the starwood staff, because at 40 points, it sort of limits his defensive capabilities, so I figured if you're going to go, go all out and get the +1 for casting *and* dispel.

Thanks again for reading guys, look forward to your feedback

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:50 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I really enjoyed this game :) I think you deployed and played very well - in particular the SM/DP gambit vs his Knights; forcing his Dragon into Coven pow-pow! This worked out just as you thought it would and in hindsight this leads me to question his dragon's movement - was there no way for him to get in combat and be stuck for 2 turns in a row - thus avoiding banishment? I believe he should've played to achieve this from the very start.

As for trying out the setup - I love it of course ;) The extra arcane slot can indeed be put to very good use and there are probably more items that haven't been mentioned here who could be useful.

One Archmage build I find it weird that you didn't consider though is Starwood Staff + Folariath's Robe. Would this not suit your need for protection sufficiently while providing that crucial +1 to cast? You could still throw in the 6+ ward save item if you want to. I would personally favour the Ashur / GP setup though, or maybe Starwood Staff & 4+ ward :)

I don't think there's any more advice to give you here - the movement and deployment were perfect, magic priorities seemed to be optimal (I especially liked Corin taking out the Puppet!) and the short length of the game means there wasn't a whole lot of decisions to make save for the ones mentioned above ;) As for your opponent though - it appears that he hasn't given too much thought as to how he can maximise the effect from the Dragon. He needs to create favourable combats for the Dragonlord and this list doesn't really help him achieve that: a unit of Marauder Horsemen for Vanguarding, a unit or two of Hounds for redirecting etc. Also, I would make both Sorcerers Tzeentch marked to get Pandaemonium (a great spell with this list) and Treason (great for handling units this lord doesn't wanna face, e.g. Lions, Chosen, Executioners...).

One thing with running without a BSB though - do not forget how powerful Light of Battle is. Effectively it gives you a bubble of "hahaha try and make me run" units. The auto-rally is also really nice - especially for conserving victory points. In the same way that we earlier discussed how to maximise your magical potential with regards to when to throw pha/banishment/timewarp, I believe you need to evaluate how and when to use Light of Battle, too. Its low casting value (even bubbled!) makes it a very attractive option with +5 on your Archmage.

Lastly I want to comment on your T2 magic phase. You say that it's not perfect but that it'll do. Personally, I do not understand anything of how you can call this not perfect? With a meager 2D6 on his part, you can reliably throw 3D6 from your level 2 (averaging 3.5 more than his dispel roll) and 3D6 from your level 4 (averaging 6.5 more than his dispel roll). Any other result sees him have enough dice to grant him a decent chance at dispelling one of these casts. Save for a '1', '1' roll, where the Banner provides you +3, I don't think any result is better for you here. Winds of Magic is often affected by the mentality that low is bad, high is good, when in fact it's usually the other way around when you generate the extra dice since the relative difference in power is huge. To elaborate, a 12v6 phase sees you have 100% more PD than he has DD. The 6v2 phase sees you have 200% more PD than he has DD! To not be able to reliably even attempt a decent dispel (with +3.5 and 6.5 respectively, he's down to sheer luck to dispel one of them) is a horrible situation to be in and this is one of the main reasons I believe that redundancy with the Coven is better than Book of Hoeth, in most cases.

P.S - I'm not sure whether you were aware of this or not at the time, but your choice to split the dice 3-3 was optimal as far as minimizing his chances of dispelling goes: giving 2 to the Archmage and 4 to the lvl 2 sees him have an average of -3 and -7 respectively, in which case he should opt for trying to dispel the archmage cast. This is a minor point really but the fact that you took the optimal route - whether by awareness or by instinct - implies that you really understand how to properly prioritize and plan a magic phase with this list :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Brewmaster_D wrote:
@ Stormie - Oh man, I'm glad they FAQ'd that. I was worried that Thorek was a little too easy to kill... :S However, the match would have likely still ended the same way - as detailed earlier, it is not legal for the Miners to charge in the turn they arrive, so the combat with Thorek was unavoidable.


Sadly that's not true at all either. Unless we interpret the statement that "A unit that enters as reinforcements cannot charge, as it has missed its opportunity to declare charges" as not being in the context of that movement phase- in which case it can never charge in the entire game. The "opportunity" it refers to is the declare charges phase, and since the Anvil allows a new charge declaration, that gives them the opportunity. While I wouldn't be entirely opposed to enemy Reinforcements never being allowed to charge (or march, for that matter) throughout the entire game, it's simply not how it is played by "serious" Dwarf players (And they're all very, very serious ;) ). This is Dwarfs 101, one of the biggest tricks up their short sleeves; ask someone like Lord Anathir who plays the army properly. Miners turn up and charge that turn: it's one the biggest reasons that the Anvil is so reviled! I don't want to start another rules argument or anything, but I don't know any tournament organiser who would ever rule otherwise (That doesn't mean your gaming group should do so, just that, all the largest collections of great players that I know all have reached the same consensus. They have been wrong before, mind you ;) ). It's a bit like the Seer Staff thing- occasionally someone goes "oh that's not legal" but by now, we all know how it works...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:54 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Congratulations Brewmaster! An excellent execution of a very good plan just shows how valuable discussions in between games are (even if they result in last minute changes :)). Your Coven of Light is really powerful indeed. This game it showed its heavy artillery aspect and brought down the beast before it did some significant damage.

The way you set up the trap with an eagle, Swordmasters and Spears was superb! =D> I really like the way you used your Ring and I am sure that if I were to increase point limit for my army to 2500 I would take it.

I also think he made a few crucial mistakes which you exploited ruthlessly.

1. Deploying the Dragon so far away would be useful if he didn't speed up his army. In particular, I see no reason for the Knights to charge forward so reclessly, epsecilly that it took them in the charge range of Swordmasters. I guess your opponent haven't fought against them before :) This helped you to remove very dangerous unit and always important BSB early on. I am sure it also shook his resolve and your opponent started to fear you.

2. I don't quite understand why he charged the eagle with both units. I understand his marauders had mark of khorne so they had to overrun but this attack was a mistake. Because they had to overrun they could not reform and presented a flank to Swordmasters. Very bad idea. If he really had to charge the eagle (and not doing so yet would mean some probelms for you to charge him instead) he should have done so with one unit only. But I still don't think it was a good idea.

3. If his dragon was 20-21 inches away from the second eagle and DP I would charge them. He could destroy them in one go and then overrun into Swordmasters thus preventing them from flank charging marauders and destroying two units in single turn. He would also be safe from banishment while in combat. That is why I think it was quite risky on your part to refrom like that. You could of course flee with both units as charge reaction but that would complicate things greatly. Although in the end you were rewarded with much better combat phase due to that reform do you think it would not be safer to simply overrun and be away from LoS of the dragon and marauders?

4. I am also interested in the little and unnoticed combat between WL and Hellcannon. How is it really resolved? Do you get to hit the cannon only and then randomize the attacks? I will check it anyway but the main question is which unit in our army has the best chance to kill it? Lions, Swordmasters or maybe even DP?

Thanks again for another very interesting report! It looked very easy but as you have already mentioned the army you faced is very powerful and you did a great job by containig it and reclaiming initiative right from the start thus forcing your enemy to react rather than keep the pressure on your troops. Well done!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:13 pm
Posts: 25
I really enjoyed reading this battle report, thanks for writing it.

_________________
1 John 4:8


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Guys!

Thanks for all the comments. Despite its length, I really enjoyed this game - for the first time in a while, I really felt like I was in control of the match from start to finish.

@Stormie - Quite the contrary - I appreciate any rules clarifications and/or corrections. It helps me prepare for the next time I face off against a list like that. Having said that, we could definitely play the "what if" game here. If his miners had charged the Dragon Princes, he would have either overrun out of position, or reformed to face the swordmasters. I would have then been able to still charge through the bolt thrower with my Eastern unit into Thorek, and I would have decimated the Miners with my swordmasters (which happened anyway). Either way, Thorek is in combat, and the Miners are dealt with. The only difference is I potentially lose the Dragon Princes. I'd like to say I'll seek out a rematch to prove it, but playing against lists like that have all the allure of pulling teeth :P

@Curu - My fear with the Starwood + Forliath's setup is that it leaves him too vulnerable to sniping spells, etc. With him in the front lines, it quickly puts him in a high risk situation where that is concerned. I'd feel much more comfortable with the Robes + Ward, or the Book of Ashur + bunker.

I, and incidentally my opponent, both agree with you regarding the Dragon. His goal was to try to approach with as few banishments as possible, however the extreme range of the spell made this difficult at best. After the game was done, he looked at the table and said "I guess I should have tried harder to get it in combat. Having said that, I think I did a decent job of making a head on approach difficult without setting yourself up for either counter charges or counter banishments (lol, counter banishment).

I definitely considered the Light of Battle, and rated it pretty highly in this match - problem was my low power dice magic phases had me exhausting my resources on priority #1 - eliminating that dragon before he could run rampant.

Regarding the Magic Phase - it was perfect in the sense that I couldn't have hoped for a better situation for getting 2x banishments off. However, I had really wanted to try getting 3 spells off: 2x Banishment + timewarp. I think it could have been feasible with a 3 & 3 roll - I'd probably end up with around 9 power dice, and him with 3 dispel dice. It'd be a bit more risky, but with the +5 to cast, I think I could have bullied my way into getting all three. Having said that, that's just me being greedy. 6 v 2 is about as surefire as the magic phase gets, with randomness mitigated almost as much as it could be. I was definitely aware of the 2 x 3 dice casting attempts - slowly but surely I'm catching on ;)

@Swordmaster - I think his goal was to pin my troops in place with the Knights, and slam into the flank of my troops with the Dragon, then roll down the flank. However, he definitely underestimated the hitting power of the high elves, as so many seem to. I think you're right - this one move effectively stole the initiative from him and turned it into my game to play. I'm sure it had a psychological effect on him as well, because now he needed to recover from a pretty serious points deficit, and it was only the first round.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
2. I don't quite understand why he charged the eagle with both units. I understand his marauders had mark of khorne so they had to overrun but this attack was a mistake. Because they had to overrun they could not reform and presented a flank to Swordmasters. Very bad idea. If he really had to charge the eagle (and not doing so yet would mean some probelms for you to charge him instead) he should have done so with one unit only. But I still don't think it was a good idea.


I'm not sure it would have mattered much here - either way his marauders are blocked by the Chaos Warriors. Personally, I would have considered ranking them up and facing them at the swordmasters in the east with the free combat reform. Any thoughts on what he could have done differently this turn? There's just so many potential charge arcs that his hands were really tied.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
3. If his dragon was 20-21 inches away from the second eagle and DP I would charge them. He could destroy them in one go and then overrun into Swordmasters thus preventing them from flank charging marauders and destroying two units in single turn. He would also be safe from banishment while in combat. That is why I think it was quite risky on your part to refrom like that. You could of course flee with both units as charge reaction but that would complicate things greatly. Although in the end you were rewarded with much better combat phase due to that reform do you think it would not be safer to simply overrun and be away from LoS of the dragon and marauders?


They were about 19" away - so not a great chance of making the charge. I would have definitely fled with the Dragon Princes, which would have brought them in the middle of the action in the center, however with any overruns there, they would have just kept fleeing and likely popped out of inside of the circle. This would have put the dragon in an awful spot, setting him up for 2x banishments without having the opportunity to do anything.

I think the key when facing a large flying target like that is to control its movement using your own, rather than try to avoid it by running out of line of sight. Turn 1 was my attempt at that, which was pretty successful, presenting him with nothing but tough choices.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
4. I am also interested in the little and unnoticed combat between WL and Hellcannon. How is it really resolved? Do you get to hit the cannon only and then randomize the attacks? I will check it anyway but the main question is which unit in our army has the best chance to kill it? Lions, Swordmasters or maybe even DP?


I don't have the stats handy here, but the T6 of the machine coupled with the pseudo 5+ ward of the crew make this thing a royal pain to deal with. The crew does work like a ward save even versus close combat attacks. If my memory is correct, it looks like about 20 white lion attacks or 30 swordmaster attacks. The Dragon Princes don't really stand a chance at killing it, but they do have good armour and eliminate its stomp attack. If there wasn't a dragon on the field, this thing would be the first to enjoy being banished, I think.

Thanks again for all the comments everyone! Guess I need to work at finding another match now lol.

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:19 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
4. I am also interested in the little and unnoticed combat between WL and Hellcannon. How is it really resolved? Do you get to hit the cannon only and then randomize the attacks?
Monster and Handler rules. Aka the worst rules in 8th edition! When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, on a 5+ remove a handler instead of wounding the monster. Handlers are an "ablative save" for the monster, plus they provide attacks and leadership. Otherwise they don't exist.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Also, I would make both Sorcerers Tzeentch marked to get Pandaemonium (a great spell with this list) and Treason (great for handling units this lord doesn't wanna face, e.g. Lions, Chosen, Executioners...).
I agree than a second Tzeentch caster would be better, but remember that Treason does not work against immune to psych, so it is completely useless against Daemons, VC, TK and often useless against WoC and Orcs. At only one attack each, it does not do that much to ogres. Basically it should be great against DE, Dwarfs, HE, and semi-useful against a few other armies. Plus remember the other two Tzeentch spells are AWFUL.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hello!

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I'm sure it had a psychological effect on him as well, because now he needed to recover from a pretty serious points deficit, and it was only the first round.

It's all in the mind, my friend, all in the mind :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I'm not sure it would have mattered much here - either way his marauders are blocked by the Chaos Warriors. Personally, I would have considered ranking them up and facing them at the swordmasters in the east with the free combat reform. Any thoughts on what he could have done differently this turn? There's just so many potential charge arcs that his hands were really tied.

I think I would be more cautious with entire army approach in the first place and let you come to me. He has fast army so there is no need to be hasty. He had shooting superiority in terms of range so before you were in range for banishment he could have 1-2 shooting rounds to soften you up (always good even for WoC).

Second thing is his units didn't support each other so even with his early Knight destruction his marauders were not in position to do something meaningful.

I agree that combat reform would be a better option. Or even pull back a little. I don't know what were distances between units but you can sometimes flee with big units too. Hell, I would even use sorcerer as a redirector or even attack the eagle with him alone, to make things more complicated for you too.

Saying that it seems he rushed to your lines and positioned his units in a way that was too difficult to reverse and it was bad decision vs. bad decision situation for him. But his Khorne lord will be pleased anyway since there were a lot of skulls for his throne :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
They were about 19" away - so not a great chance of making the charge. I would have definitely fled with the Dragon Princes, which would have brought them in the middle of the action in the center, however with any overruns there, they would have just kept fleeing and likely popped out of inside of the circle. This would have put the dragon in an awful spot, setting him up for 2x banishments without having the opportunity to do anything.

He was in the range of 2 x banishment after his move anyway so I think it was better to at least try and create more confusion. Fleeing would prevent your own charges next turn and he could safely charge your eagle as well. 19" with swiftstride when you need to get 9+ is risky but not that unlikely. Again, there were no good decisions for him to make here.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I think the key when facing a large flying target like that is to control its movement using your own, rather than try to avoid it by running out of line of sight. Turn 1 was my attempt at that, which was pretty successful, presenting him with nothing but tough choices.

You are right and I will try to remember your teachings as big flying monsters will be difficult for me to catch :) However, in that particular situation you could be in good position behind enemy lines and that was I was referring in terms of being out of line of sight. I am not saying it would be better but I think it is an option to consider in general, especially that you had many units in the front arc of marauders and could close in so he would be in difficult situation not knowing who to face and which units leave behind his back.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I don't have the stats handy here, but the T6 of the machine coupled with the pseudo 5+ ward of the crew make this thing a royal pain to deal with. The crew does work like a ward save even versus close combat attacks. If my memory is correct, it looks like about 20 white lion attacks or 30 swordmaster attacks. The Dragon Princes don't really stand a chance at killing it, but they do have good armour and eliminate its stomp attack. If there wasn't a dragon on the field, this thing would be the first to enjoy being banished, I think.

Dabber has already answered my quiestion (thanks dabber! :)) so it seems I remembered correctly and I also checked RB to make sure. So it kind of has 8 wounds and since it is unbreakable it does not matter. Well, I guess I need to avoid it as long as I am not able to bring 2+ WL/SM against it and even then it can be very bloody. :)

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:16 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Swordmaster, Banishment can be boosted to 48" which is very, very hard to hide from. I don't think this army can play cautious against the Coven. Also, you're right about 19" charge being risky but not unlikely - with swiftstride it's just above 50% to make it. The problem is the reaction though, the flee easily sees them get away.

I wonder if a viable strat would be to just march his Dragon FAR up T1 and then engage T2 with whatever, hoping for the scroll to weather the worst from your T1.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 633
Location: Washington, DC
First, great game! The turn 1 charge was great! He won't underestimate swords and DPs again, that's for sure. I particularly like your use of the eagle to draw the dragon into short banishment range! Good, heads-up thinking. Also, the use of the magic phase when you had a big advantage was big! You really managed your dice well! so well done!

Brewmaster D wrote:
Any thoughts on what he could have done differently this turn?


As to what he could have done turn 2: CHARGE! The dragon seemed to be sufficiently close that the charge was pretty certain (16-18" charge, it looks like, but maybe it isn't accurately depicted in chronicler).

Correct me if I am wrong here in my rules interpretation, but if an over-running unit catches an already fleeing enemy (a different one from the one it broke or overran), the unit counts as being destroyed, as you can't declare charge reactions from a pursuit/overrun move, so the fleeing enemy would by definition be destroyed?

Because if that is the case, his dragon charging your DPs would have been horrible for you. First, if you fled with the DPs, the swordmasters would have had to take a panic test (risky in general, with no BSB). Even if they passed, the dragon could redirect to them, and hit them in the rear (also bad news). Furthermore, the dragon princes would be in the path of either the marauders or the chaos warrior overrun, allowing one of the units to possibly catch and destroy the DPs on overrun after they killed the eagle. If you fled with the swordmasters too, then ANOTHER unit could be caught by overrunning marauders. Definitely not a great situation. And, as a failed charge only moves you one D6, the dragon would likely still have been in long banishment range if he failed a charge, forcing you to use more dice to cast it, and thereby precluding you from casting the spell twice and finishing the general.

If you stood, the dragons would have likely been destroyed or broken, and the dragon would have overran into the swordmasters in the rear, protecting him from banishment entirely until his turn 3, when he could have charged again at full wounds into your spears, or charging over them (if range was sufficient) into your mages' unit...

That maneuver, despite losing the 3x breath weapon shock value in turn 2 (which ended up being lackluster anyway), would have effectively eliminated two of your big combat units and left you out of position to provide sufficient combined-arms to take out his units. It would have made it a lot harder, I think, particularly with your lions chasing down a hellcannon and being out of position. You still could have won (and in fact I am intrigued to hear what you would have done in this situation :D), but it certainly wouldn't have been as easy as a turn 2 surrender on his part!

Thats what I would have done in his position, in any case. it is possible I am missing something, and that maneuver wouldn't have worked, but it appears that was a possible situation to me (correct me if I am wrong though :D).

Anyway, great game again Brewmaster! You are making me re-consider Shadow vs. Light in my eagle prince list, so keep it up! I love being forced to think! :D

_________________
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Guys!

Some great discussion here regarding the Chaos turn 2. I've drafted up a hypothetical picture of what the turn would have looked like after charged the Dragon Princes. Naturally, my reaction would have been flee.

Image

So first, to address the panic issues - the Swordmasters who would have been forced to take a panic test still had the Gleaming Pennant available, so the chances of them failing their panic test was pretty low. The Dragon Princes, on average, would have popped out just beyond the unit, smack in the middle of the chaos in the center. Since the only charge reaction for an already fleeing unit is to flee, his charge into the eagle and subsequent overrun would have forced the Dragon Princes out of the middle again, regardless of what angle he chooses.

The only difference it really makes in this turn is that it changes the angle that the eagle combat happens at - it would swing in to meet the Marauders, should they charge, since they can't properly close the door due to the Dragon Princes, who are now in the way. Regardless of the overrun he chooses with this new angle, however, would put him into a unit of swordmasters, with a counter charge lined up in the next turn. The Warriors would go into the Eastern ones and take a counter from the Western ones, or vice versa should he overrun with the marauders. It's still a sticky situation, with the difference being his dragon now has to take a round of banishments without having an opportunity to breathe, and all my troops have now shifted Westward making it much harder to even get the opportunity on Turn 3 due to the small movement from the failed charge.

The charge range from the Dragon to the Dragon Princes was 19", which is long, and 23" to the Swordmasters, which is not possible.

I was very particular about the placement of this turn, and the possibility of a charge from the Dragon definitely occured to me - in the combo charge versus the knights, since I had two units, I got to dictate where the centers of my units would land in the combat, so I effectively got to choose where to place them after the reform. It was a gamble that I would kill the knights, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained right?

With both of his units frenzied, his hands are tied with what he can do, since free reforms after combat aren't an option.

Hope this helps clarify the situation!

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 633
Location: Washington, DC
Bewmaster D wrote:
The Dragon Princes, on average, would have popped out just beyond the unit, smack in the middle of the chaos in the center. Since the only charge reaction for an already fleeing unit is to flee, his charge into the eagle and subsequent overrun would have forced the Dragon Princes out of the middle again, regardless of what angle he chooses.


Actually, not true. You cannot make any reaction to a charge resulting from an enemy unit overrunning/pursuing into you.

BRB P58- talking about charges that result from pursuit/overrun:

BRB pg 58 wrote:
Even if the charged unit was already fleeing, it still cannot take any charge reactions. Move the pursuers into contact with it as you would for a unit completing a charge against a fleeing unit... The fleeing unit is then immediately destroyed and the pursuing unit is allowed one final reform.


So a pursuit into them with the marauders would have killed the DPs, since you can't make a reaction, and it would have destroyed them. Also note that he would have stopped his overrun there, and not pursued past as the rulebook says to move then into contact THEN remove them, not remove them and make the full normal overrun distance, which also has the added advantage for him of not bringing him far out of position.

Good to know about distance, though. 19" is about 50/50 on 3 dice (average on 3 dice discarding lowest is 8.5). That's a 50/50 chance of them being destroyed if you stand, and if you flee and prevent a charge and eliminate the chance of him being in combat, the DPs will dfinitely get overrun into and destroyed, then he gets to reform (it does change the angle of the eagle combat too from not being able to close the door). Either way though, banishment twice become less likely with 3 dice towards casting it, so so he likely would have survived. Completely changes the game if you stood and he made the charge, which is actually average with swiftstride. That's why I said it would have changed the game. It is what I would have done, as it forces a tough decision where there really isn't an optimal decision, and if you take a risk and stand its a 50/50 of it blowing up in your face.

Any changes to the strategy if he did that with averages and in light of that rule?

_________________
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
Stormie wrote:
Brewmaster_D wrote:
@ Stormie - Oh man, I'm glad they FAQ'd that. I was worried that Thorek was a little too easy to kill... :S However, the match would have likely still ended the same way - as detailed earlier, it is not legal for the Miners to charge in the turn they arrive, so the combat with Thorek was unavoidable.


Sadly that's not true at all either. Unless we interpret the statement that "A unit that enters as reinforcements cannot charge, as it has missed its opportunity to declare charges" as not being in the context of that movement phase- in which case it can never charge in the entire game. The "opportunity" it refers to is the declare charges phase, and since the Anvil allows a new charge declaration, that gives them the opportunity. While I wouldn't be entirely opposed to enemy Reinforcements never being allowed to charge (or march, for that matter) throughout the entire game, it's simply not how it is played by "serious" Dwarf players (And they're all very, very serious ;) ). This is Dwarfs 101, one of the biggest tricks up their short sleeves; ask someone like Lord Anathir who plays the army properly. Miners turn up and charge that turn: it's one the biggest reasons that the Anvil is so reviled! I don't want to start another rules argument or anything, but I don't know any tournament organiser who would ever rule otherwise (That doesn't mean your gaming group should do so, just that, all the largest collections of great players that I know all have reached the same consensus. They have been wrong before, mind you ;) ). It's a bit like the Seer Staff thing- occasionally someone goes "oh that's not legal" but by now, we all know how it works...


Aye +1 to this. Something to do with the wording.

Daniel am I serious dwarf player because I just happen to know 18 slayers in 6x3 are the biggest unit I can field that can reform into single conga rank status without going over double their movement characteristic in the reform? :D

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Due to the angle of the Eagle an overrun would have put the marauders past the DP, not on top of them. Random flee distance would of course be something to factor in.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey jwg20!

Thanks for the rules clarifications. It's amazing how one small clause can have a drastic effect on the rest of the game.

However, I would have still sacrificed the Dragon Princes in this situation - I don't see how he could have possibly reformed (assuming he passed his Ld8 test with no reroll to do so) to avoid a deadly multi charge the next turn. Remember that the next turn is my turn, so I had three units lined up to take him on, two of which being nearly full units of swordmasters. Just those two units does 30 casualties on the marauders, let alone if I get my spears in there too. Any aggressive approach by the Chaos Warriors to prevent a combo charge on the Marauders would have seen them get combo charged instead.

I think a 150 point unit for a free round of potshots on the dragon is more than worth it, so I'd definitely make that sacrifice.

The other thing to consider is that my coven is mobile . There would have been nothing stopping me from marching to just within 24" of the Dragon with my level 2, allowing me the exact same Banishment roll: 3 dice with the Level 2 on a 10+, 3 dice on the Archmage on a 12+. So the result of that turn would have been the same (a 1 wound dragon remaining), however he'd lose the Lord's breath weapon, and he wouldn't have any charge opportunities due to being over 22" away from everything. He could breathe on my coven, however it's still a lost cause at that point - the dragon goes down next turn regardless. A single powered up Shem's is enough to take him out at this point.

I definitely agree with everyone that that Dragon *needed* to get into combat, however I think the main issue with that was the flanking approach. I think the best bet here would have been what has already been mentioned; central deployment, full speed ahead and rely on the scroll to keep him safe until he can get into combat.

Thanks again for the comments guys! Some very helpful rules insights here.

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:32 am 
Offline
Centurion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Posts: 3297
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Wow! Two turns and he's done! An incredible effort and really shows the power of the coven of light.

The book of ashur adding +6 to dice was outstanding and shutting down his casting attempts in turn 2.

_________________
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am
Posts: 394
I do have to say, that banishment is scary! :)
Who says high elves can't compete in a ranged battle?
Banishment spam is now added to the list of things that can easily kill my dragon :)

I think I would like to see another game with this new version of the list against empire (preferably a legal version again). I would imagine that your list has to be one of the better ones for dealing with war machines. Light seems as though it was mean for High elves, as you said. It has 2 ways of shutting down war machines (3, if you count banishment blowing them apart...), something that other lores not only struggle with, but something that some lores outright fail to do, at least on an economic scale. Take life, for example. Only one unit can take a flesh to stone - So the other player will simply kill something else. Sure, the swordmasters you just "stoned" will be very hard to kill, but then, your army is made up of elves, there is almost always something else WORTH shooting. Of course, you could TRY and use dwellers, but you're probably going to have to go for the big one (cause you'll hardly ever be within 12" and not charging), and even then the risk of miscast doesn't necessarily balance out the insta-death of a single war machine.

Shadow can only help against war machines by killing them - which it does reasonably well. But then of course you are hedging your bets on pit not scattering. If it scatters too far, you've essentially wasted a whole lot of PD. This is the issue with shadow - the casting costs are high, and the lore itself is quite random. Not something that sits well with me. In my opinion the magic phase is random enough.

In your tactics article (which was fantastic, btw, thanks for the write-up) you mentioned Light not having a way to deal with massed infantry. This, I think, is not a massive downside. High elves usually don't have TOO much trouble with large numbers of crappy infantry - as long as you can plan ahead and get a combo charge, the killyness of our troops should seem them chop-sueyed in next to no time, with few losses (I'm not talking skaven here. I don't think any lore is really going to help :)). Monsters and war machines, however, are often the bane of our troops, which is where light really shines (haha). Monsters are so difficult because there is no way to eliminate the incoming damage other than to slay the beast outright, which can sometimes be difficult in some cases (think double hydra - one deployed on each flank. Your banner of eternal flame unit can realistically only get 1, whilst the other munches spears or something even more tasty), and when the damage does come, its bad. War machines, as we all know murder elves.

Monsters and Warmachines I consider to be the 2 biggest weaknesses of High elves in 8th edition, and the fact that light helps with both of these, makes it a winner in my books.

_________________
"They thought we had all but died out, but as we take to the skies our foes will tremble with fear, for they will know the True Dragon Princes have returned."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Guys!

So I've got a game lined up tonight against a skaven opponent. It'll be my first attempt at 2200 with the coven list, so the jury's still out whether it transfers well to a low point cost game. Here are the two lists, mine and his:

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Ring of Corin, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix (Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (Pha's and Banishment)
Mage, Level 1, Anullian Crystal

30 x Spearmen, Full Command
10 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Standard, Banner of Discipline, Musician

17 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
12 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance
12 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

Skaven List

Grey Seer, Skalm, Talisman of Preservation
Engineer, Level 1, Doomrocket, Warp Energy Condenser
Plague Priest, Flail, Furnace
Chieftain, BSB, Armour of Destiny, Halbred

50 x Slaves, Musician
50 x Slaves, Musician
40 x Clanrats, Full Command, Hand Weapon + Shields
5 x Giant rats, Packmaster
5 x Giant rats, Packmaster

38 x Plague Monks, Full Command, Storm Banner
5 x Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings

Hellpit, Warpstone Spikes
Hellpit

Should be an interesting game if nothing else! I'd love to hear any comments you guys have about the upcoming match!

I also found this - I wrote it a while back when I very first fielded the coven of light. I have one player in our group that loves fluff, so I wrote this up to introduce the coven to him.

The Coven of Light

War is all the Noble Alinar has ever known. Such is the curse of living on the northern borders of Ulthuan. Days blend into nights, and the only thing to mark the passing of time is the approach of the next Chaos incursion or Dark Elf raiding party.

Alinar looks around at the warriors in his troupe. The last battle has taken its toll on the brave soldiers. During this battle, Alinar's second in command - a fine warrior named Yrveth - had fallen to a cruel Dark Elf Sorceress. He and his men had looked on as the witch corrupted his mind with her magic and drew him in, only to offer him up as a sacrifice to Khaine. The scene is something he can't shake from his mind, and by the looks of the others, neither can they.

Alinar stands in front of his men and begins to speak

"We are the warriors of the north. We are Ulthuan's last bastion of defense. If we fall, the floodgates open. Not only our families, but our entire way of life is in jeopardy. The re-inforcements we were promised aren't coming. All that stands in the path of evil is us!"

He steadies his gaze on a young looking elf dressed in dark leather armour.

"what is the report Naenor?"

"We've spotted enemy activity over the next ridge sir"

"Prepare yourselves. This is to be a long night"

A murmur begins to pass through the crowd.

"You'll have a chance to rest when you're either dead, or Ulthuan is razed to the ground. Until then, we show these defilers that evil has no place on our soil!"

**********

Alinar peers down from the crest of the ridge. Below lies a river bed, which forms a natural choke point. He signals to his commanders that this is where the battle is to take place. At this point he's used to being outnumbered.

In the distance he hears a gibbering cry, causing his blood to run cold. Daemons, he thinks to himself. Asuryan must truly be testing his determination. Not since the days of the first Phoenix Kings had Daemons ventured this far south.

He barks some orders, and his soldiers get into place.

********

The earth in the distance begins to move. The keen eyed elves can see the illusion for what it really is - swarms of horrific looking creatures from the realm of chaos.

Among the swarm lurks a beast that stands heads above the rest. Alinar rests a hand on the hilt of his great-sword and mutters a prayer to Isha.


********

The battle lines collide and elf squares off against all manner of otherworldly beast. The warriors hold out as well as can be expected. Alinar glances left and watches in horror as the young scout Naenor is impaled by the blade of a forked tongued fiend.

Knowing today will be his last on this plane, he prepares himself to face the menace from above.

*********

Within a ring of balefire, Alinar exchanges blows with the winged monstrosity. A sweeping blow from the fiend's axe glances just above the elf's head.

Alinar springs back, aiming a blow of his own at the creature's Achilles tendon. The creature leaps up into the air and laughs mockingly at the elf.

Alinar looks through the flames to see one of the bolts from his reapers strike home in the chest of a many legged beast. He finds solace knowing that the Daemon host was feeling the sting of his warriors.

He glances back to his adversary just in time to catch the crack of its whip connect with the front of his armour and toss him like a doll to the ground.

His greatsword flies from his grasp, and he watches in dismay as it goes through the flames that encircle the battleground. As he loses sight of his sword, his perspective shifts to the top of the hill, where he notices a single point of light. Dim at first, the light grows in intensity, revealing four stoic figures.

Suddenly, orbs of light erupt from the hilltop. The brightness is more than Alinar can stand, and he turns his gaze to look upon the Greater Daemon hovering above him. The orbs of light slam into it, sending great shudders through it's massive body. It falls to the ground, revealing great gaping holes and seared flesh where the orbs struck.

With the creature weakened, the balefire surrounding Alinar dissipates. Without hesitation, he leaps to his greatsword and charges at the beast. The monster lets out a deep guttural howl as he plunges the sword deep into its neck. The daemon crumples to the ground, and the high elven host lets out a rallying cry.

Alinar looks back up to the hill, which is now lit up as bright as day. Orbs of light are volleying from the staffs of the Mages, each one striking true, purifying Daemon flesh.

"I guess the re-inforcements came after all..." Alinar says to himself, as he charges back into the foray. The disorganized, disheartened Daemons prove to be easy prey.

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:28 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7798
Location: Queensland, Australia
I <3 fluff, it's something every army should have ^_^

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:03 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
The game should indeed be interesting - a reduced Coven will probably and hopefully still be able to pack a punch at this level, though I do fear that you will miss S7 ;)

I agree with Tiralya, fluff is something everyone should have. I'm currently working on my own as well ;) PS - since when did Naenor become a scout? Last time I saw him he was riding a Pegasus, kicking some Daemons a** (together with Saerith) :D

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hello Everyone,

Tonight I had my first opportunity to test my 2200 rendition of my list versus a strong, all comers Skaven list. I posted the lists in the previous post, so I'll spare you those details - the only thing I missed from the list was a dispel scroll on the Plague Priest.

Oh, Rats...

We roll for spells, and get the following:

Plague Priest - Cloud of Corruption
Engineer - Warp Lightning
Grey Seer - Skitterleap, Death Frenzy, Scorch, 13th (1 warpstone token)

Mage - Light of Battle
Archmage - Pha's, Net, Banishment, Timewarp
Mage - Pha's, Banishment

Deployment

I actually kept track of the drops this time, and went ahead and numbered them in the picture to show my train of thought during deployment:

Image

I let him pick the table edge, to gain the advantage in deployment.

So if you look at just drops 1-4, I've created the illusion that my battle line is going to fall mostly in the center. He reacts by placing his clanrats dead center, then his plague furnace slightly East. This is the unit I least want to face, and I want to try to draw the hellpits out before committing my elites. Once the first hellpit goes down, I drop heavy in the west with the lions, and he knows what's going down. He puts his second hellpit there in the hopes that they can cripple my elites, making them easy targets for his big blocks.

We roll off, and I win first turn.

Turn 1, High Elves

Image

I know the storm banner is going to come out when I least want it, so I attempt to get my Western Eagle into the spot where I think he's going to be needed *next* turn.

The elites fan out to form a crossfire of charge arcs, so any Hellpits that get overeager will face a flank charge - their large flank footprints allow us to get plenty of attacks on them.

Magic is 4 & 4. The skaven manage to channel, and I get 3 from the Banner of Sorcery, making the total 11 v 5

I lead the way with a 3 dice banishment with my level 2 on his farthest Hellpit, which he dispels with 3. I then throw 3 dice with my level 4, and roll relatively high, so the scroll comes out. Next comes a 3 dice Timewarp on the Western Swordmasters in order to guarantee a charge if the hellpits get funky with their movement - he tries to dispel, but fails to meet my casting value. I then toss the remaining 2 at the Ring of Corin, turning that nasty looking rocket the engineer is holding into a dud.

I marched with my shooting, so we move to his turn.

Turn 1, Skaven

Image

Both of his hellpits double time it forward, getting 12 and 13 from West to East. The rest of his army moves forward, with his slaves in the East parking just behind the gutter runners.

Magic is a 1 & 6, with a successful channel and Warp Energy Condenser for the skaven, making the total 8 v 7

He leads off with a 3 dice scorch. I have a choice - if I dispel it, there's a 50/50 chance that he'll get off the dreaded 13th. If I let it go off, there's a chance I could get pummelled with both regardless. I decide to throw 4 at it, hoping desperately that he fails to cast the 13th. Turns out I'm wrong, and after slamming his warpstone token, he manages an irresistable force. He rolls 11 for casualties, leaving me with just one lonely swordmaster in that unit. He rolls his miscast, and gets a 4.. and what do you know? He gets sucked into the warp. That makes me feel a little better about losing a 240 point unit first turn.

His gutter runners manage a wound on my Eastern Eagle, and we move on to turn 2

High Elves, Turn 2

Image

With the scroll burned, I like my odds at getting banishment through on one of his hellpits. I also have some good archer shots that can maybe put a wound on it as well, so I declare both the intact units of elites on the hellpit in the East. I've got about 14" between the hellpit in the West and me, so my chances are good of getting 2 rounds of shooting/magic off on it. I also *immediately* curse myself for not taking Shem's. What an oversight!

I charge the gutter runners, and I see what he's up to - they flee right through his troops, popping out on the side that has my vulnerable elites. If they rally, they'll be a problem...

The Eastern block of slaves, however, now having low leadership because of their absentee general, flee due to panic from being fled through.

True to form, the Storm Banner activates this turn, so my eagle in the East is left hopelessly stranded. My placement of the western one, however, paid off. All I need to do is turn him a bit to create a nice bottleneck in his battle line.

We move on to magic, and again I roll 4 & 4. I get 2 from the banner and 1 channel, making the total 11 v 4. I'll take it!

I start with a 3D6 banishment on my Archmage, knowing that he's now at a serious disadvantage in dispelling with his Grey Seer off in the void. The roll is high, and he knows he'd have to blow all his dice to even have a modest chance of dispelling it. He decides to hold on to them in the hopes that the Level 2 isn't so lucky. I roll low for the hits, getting only 5, which ends up in 2 wounds after regen. I had hoped for more, but any wounds on one of these guys is good news.

I then throw 4D6 with the Level 2 at another Banishment, which he attempts to dispel, but fails. Another low roll of 6 leads to 3 more wounds on it. It's now feeling pretty vulnerable with only 1 wound!

I try a 3D6 timewarp on the White Lions, but whiff the cast with a 1,1 and 2. My last D6 goes at an attempt at Pha's, but I whiff that too. Can't complain about that magic phase though.

I direct all my archers at it, and fail to do anything due to the ferocious winds.

In combat, the Swordmasters manage a whopping 12 wounds on the hellpit... which of course gets whittled down to 4 after 8 (!!) regen saves. Luckily the Lions are able to put the last two on it, and it (thankfully) rolls a 2 on the "Too Horrible to Die" chart, leaving it dead for good. The swordmasters overrun, but just clip the edge of my remaining swordmaster. The White Lions reform to face the East as well, not overly concerned with a 1 wound hellpit behind them, given the above average distance between them.

Skaven, Turn 2

Image

The storm banner stays up this turn

And once again, I live to regret my decision. The hellpit rolls a big 14 for its movement, slamming into my white Lions. His clanrats and slaves both charge my eagle, and he holds, happy with how the overruns will land, should he choose them. He aligns the units so that the now leadership 5 slaves can't overrun, avoiding the eventual failed test. His gutter runners manage to rally.

The winds are 8 v 7, but he doesn't try anything - he can't afford to lose any more to miscasts at this point, and there isn't much benefit to be had from cloud of corruption.

In combat, the Hellpit's impact hits manage to kill three white lions, but the woodsmen manage to put the disgusting beast out of its misery... or do they? Naturally, he rolls a 6 on the "Too horrible to die" chart, and it pops back up nearby with 4 fresh wounds. Rats...

The cheiftain manages to put down the eagle, and they reform to keep the spears in the front arc, but still prevent the overrun from the slaves.

High Elves, Turn 3

Image

Once again, the storm refuses to fade.

I charge the flank of his slaves with my two units of elites and the last remaining Swordmaster. I also charge my spears in against his clanrats, as I feel that if ever there was a good target for their high volume S3 attacks, this is it. Finally, the Dragon Princes charge the side of the Plague Furnace unit, confident in their ability to lock it in place for a turn or two, allowing me to mop up his remaining troops before engaging it.

Magic is 3 & 1, and I get 3 from the banner, giving me 7 v 3. I can definitely get what I need done with that!

I start off with a 4D6 banishment with my Mage, which he allows. 7 hits, turns into 5 wounds, which results in 2 after regen saves. I then throw the remaining 3D6 at a banishment with my level 4, which puts another 7 hits, 4 wounds, 2 after regen. Luckily, this is enough to take the beast down, and it stays dead this time.

My shooting eliminates the Western rat dart, and we move on to combat.

The slaves take a pounding from the elites, and without their leader's leadership, they break from combat. However, they still have 4 ranks, which means their "Dangerous when cornered" has the potential to take out my remaining swordmaster from the Standard of Balance unit, netting him some victory points. Luckily, the distance rolled is 1", but the hits come out big with 6 on both the full-ish units of elites. They each take 10 S3 hits, which results in 3 wounds on each. The overrun, unfortunately, falls short for the Swordmasters - I had hoped that they'd clip the Clanrats, allowing me to get some necessary casualties to break that unit too.

The spears, in all their S3 glory, only manage 2 wounds on the clanrats, and between the cheiftain and troops, they manage 2 back. Because of the charge and his BSB, we tie combat... close call.

The Dragon Princes kill 7 plague monks, and they don't kill any back. He loses combat, so although he's unbreakable, he loses his frenzy, and fails his reform test.

Skaven, Turn 3

Image

The storm banner stays up!

His remaining Rat Dart charges the rear of my coven bunker.

Magic is 2 v 3, and he throws them at cloud of corruption, but fails to meet the casting value.

In combat, with their now full attacks, the spears still only manage 3 wounds on the clanrats, and in return they manage 2. Once again, the spearmen face a very close tie...

The Dragon Princes manage 3 wounds and he manages none, however he is successful in reforming this turn.

The Archers in the coven bunker MAJORLY whiff their attacks and only kill 2 rats, and the rats do too. However, due to the rear charge, they win combat by 1. I take my steadfast test on 10 and pass. I then need to sit down for 5 minutes from the stress of almost losing my coven to a 23 point rat dart...

High Elves, Turn 4

Image

The storm finally subsides, so my eagle manages to stop waddling around.

My swordmasters charge the Gutter Runners, but he flees, knowing an unfavourable combat when he sees one.

Magic is 2 & 1. The banner only provides 1, and I fail to channel, making the total 4 v 2.

I throw 3D6 at Timewarp on the White Lions, which he allows, saving his dice for my 1 dice attempt at Pha's, which I whiff anyway.

The timewarped white lions and spears finally combine might to take out the character bunker, which breaks, but it run down by the White Lions. His furnace and friends, finally able to bring the might of their attacks to bear manage to kill 2 Dragon Princes, who miraculously hold. At this point he concedes the game, with only one unit left on the field.

After Battle Thoughts

So this list *really* isn't for the faint of heart. Having no BSB makes rolls that would otherwise be no sweat very harrowing experiences. That had that rat dart killed my coven, I probably would have lost my marbles.

Things that worked:

- Despite regeneration, banishment made those hellpits shake in their disgusting, oversized booties.
- The coven magic phase, despite a few low rolls, proves to be very reliable. Even with rolls like 3 & 1, the bonuses from the banner and channeling allows the mages to still get it done.
- Deployment was critical in this game. I put down the drop order in order to illustrate that my opponent wasn't stupid - he was faced with a situation where I had two effective deployment options, and he had to commit to one of them. At the point when he was dropping his bunker and furnace unit, I could have easily deployed the bulk of my combat units in the center, *or* on the Western flank. This type of situation is the strongest argument I can make for MSU.
- My eagle positioning first turn. When the banner is a threat, in the turn that your eagles *can* fly, it's important to think about where they need to be one turn from now, since your opponent can shut down their movement when it counts.

Things that didn't:

- MSU is vulnerable to The Dreaded 13th. What else is new lol.
- I almost lost my coven to a rat dart. I can't get over that. It really points out the advantages a BSB brings to the situation.
- The Grey Seer got sucked into the void first turn. If not for that, I'd have been in a tough spot, with a Dreaded 13th coming at me every turn it was possible.
- Finally, how could I have forgotten to take Shem's versus an opponent that had 2 hellpits? This spell would have been fantastic for at minimum drawing out dispel dice, and at best killing regeneration and "too horrible to die". Utter stupidity on my part.
- The spearmen. Every once and a while I get it in my head that these guys can kill *anything*. I consistently get proven wrong.

I'd love to hear your thoughts guys! A few questions for you:

1. Do you think at 2200 points, S6 banishment is enough?
2. Do you think that having no BSB is too risky?
3. If I did decide to include a BSB, I have a couple options - combat oriented or with the radient gem for S7 banishment. Which would you prefer if it were you?

Thanks again for reading guys!

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:56 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
That was intense! Congrats on a well deserved win :)

The first thing I noticed was that you skipped Shem's but as you realized yourself this was a mistake. In the future I doubt you'll make the same error ;)

Deployment saw you getting a huge advantage, as you pointed out yourself. This was critical to your success - allowing you to engage where and what you wanted.

As for the Seer disappearing T1, well you're asking to do so every once in a while when you 6-die spells! I should know ^^

Your T3 left me wondering WHY you would leave your bunker so vulnerable. A free reform would've seen the GR2 in your front, while still having the HPA in your front arc. There's a good chance you can't kill all the rats and with +3 statis resolution from a rear charge, it can be risky. You could also have moved your mages OUT at this point, as there was nothing to threaten them, effectively neutralizing the threat. At the very least, spread them out to reduce the potential damage. A thought for future games can be to have the Gem of Courage on your Archmage.

Apart from this, the battle pretty much played itself - nice movement from the elites, good magic priorities (though I probably would've thrown all 4D6 at the 3D6 Timewarp you failed due to the fact that having 1D6 left is a risk in itself) and Eagles making your life easier ;) Good game, well played

Your questions:
S6 is always enough and always too little. You still see Bloodthirsters at 2200 points for example, in which case you'll really miss S7. However, it might not be necessary to bring him down comfortably. Dropping the elites further down seems like a bad choice though so I'd stick with S6
BSB probably not worth it here. Takes away too many elites and you have plenty of LD-insurance. Basically I don't think this is a weak spot for you, whereas losing the elites is critical

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Curu!

Thanks for the comments. Intense is right! That's the thing with skaven - it'll always feel like you're losing until you win. With the numbers they can field, the first step to defeating them is getting over the psychological effect of seeing all the units they can field.

With regards to the 6 dice casting - I totally agree, and so does my opponent. I think the Earthing Rod will start making an appearance in future lists ;)

Turn 3 - I think front arc would have been a stretch, and the flank would have netted me less attacks on the rats. The right move here was probably to turn the other unit of archers to shoot the rats. At ld 5, they are very vulnerable to panic. Just a simple oversight on my part - in my head, the 23 point unit of rats didn't even blip on my radar. I just assumed my ASF archers would deal with the issue. Just goes to show that I didn't even take the time to do the math in my head. A hard lesson learned, that's for sure.

I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the answers to my questions - I just need to be a bit more careful with my coven.

I have another match lined up at 2200 for a bit later this week, so we'll see how it does then.

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 648 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 22  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group