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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Alrighty, I've got a bit more time now, so I can actually give some more detailed thoughts regarding the battle.

@ dabber - I like to give opponents the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their army lists, but I think you're right, I need to go with my gut a bit more when it comes to opponent's lists. Oh well, you live you learn.

I agree about the deployment - there's no reason to bunch up your artillery like that, and it allowed me to overrun the entire firing base in one fell swoop.

Regarding his roll of 3 dice vs. 4 - I'm not totally sure. He might have thrown 4 here, as you're right, it doesn't make sense to withhold 1 dice. My note taking was hasty due to it being a store game, so I apologize about this.

My magic phase, however, I can definitely comment on. I attempted the last banishment on the knights to do a few things. First, it gets the points for that unit. At over 300 points, I see that as worthwhile. I saw the warmachines as essentially dealt with - they had lions right in their face, as well as an eagle charging in, so I viewed those points as only a matter of time. The knights, however, could have slipped through my fingers, providing him with another redirector as well as a means of witholding points. I was careless though, and didn't premeasure the 12" range for the strength boost on banishment, so that ended up costing me.

Banishing the warmachines was certainly a possibility - It was a real toss up for me. On one hand two banishments has a good chance of shutting down two of the artillery pieces, however I already had Pha's up on almost every unit that mattered, so I felt confident in going for the big points and trying to panic the knights, who were outside of the leadership bubble. Being so far back, poised for a counter charge, a panic would have almost certainly removed them from the table.

My main goal with the swordmaster charge on his greatswords was to grind them down to manageable levels. I was confident in my magical superiority at that point, as the +1 to dispel was *really* hurting him. My forgetting to target the Warrior priest in particular was the biggest mistake of that game, however. It single handedly cost me about 10 swordmasters. Bad rolling aside, with the amount of buffs on the swordmasters, they should have been able to go nearly 3 rounds with those guys and severely dwindle their numbers. This would also buy me the time I needed to mop up the artillery, and in this pursuit at least I was successful.

Glad you enjoyed it!


So I've used the term flexible to describe the lore of light before, but I've never had a battle report to really help provide tangible evidence of what I mean.

If you look at my needs each turn, the lore of light has something to offer for each one.

Turn 1 - I need protection from the ranged assault, as well as the ability to provide ranged threat of my own - Banishment and Pha's pull through in spades. If Pha's failed, I could also have utilized Net to put one of the mortars out of commission

Turn 2 - My troops are in position to assault his units, but I need some movement flexibility in my next turn to ensure that my charges land home, as some are far enough to be risky. Timewarp fills this gap nicely

Turn 3 - My swordmasters need to increase their combat potential, primarily defensively, but also offensively. I have a myriad of options here, with the potential for 2x Pha's, Speed of Light and Timewarp. In then end, I get one of each off (not that it mattered *curse words). Because the spells are all 1 turn, I can count on them remaining for two rounds of combat.

Turn 4 - My troops are vulnerable to shooting once again, with several of the combats wrapping up. My lions are also threatened by the Greatswords, and could use some extra combat punch to dissuade a charge. Net shuts down one of the mortars, and a pha's + timewarp combo makes the White Lions really unattractive to charge or to shoot at.

Turn 5 - Once again in combat with a hatred wielding horde. What I need is some defense to increase the grinding capabilities of my elites - with that, they'll definitely have the ability to grind down the opponent. What I get is nothing, but at least I have options - Pha's and speed of light, both of which can be powered up to effect both units in combat.


There's not a single turn where I don't have a spell that can do what I want. Lore of Light allows me to stack defense, stack offense, or any combination in between. I can't think of any other lore in the game that has this kind of flexibility and diversity. On top of that, it's a useful lore for any level of caster, with most spells having both a very low and a higher casting cost.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Your point about Lore of Light's flexibility is exactly why I believe it has so much potential: no other lore provides this with certainty:
- If you take Life, some lists won't care about Dwellers (Khorne Daemons spring to mind)
- If you take Shadow, some lists won't care about Pit (High Elves spring to mind)
This essentially leave the lores very one-dimensional. With a Coven setup, Light ALWAYS has a number of uses. What's more, the added cheap mages can take valuable arcane items and STILL be very useful as opposed to the normal lvl 2 packing seerstaff, forcing Crystal on your Archmage.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:44 pm 
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Still cannot see HE Turn 3 and 4 :(

But fortunately you described everything so I don't lost the track :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:54 am 
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So there's a couple things I've been thinking about recently, and I'd love to hear your input on them:

Recently I saw posted on here another coven of light based list, only this one had a Level 4 with the Book of Hoeth, then a bunch of budget Level 1's. Now I'm not too keen on fielding the Book of Hoeth, however in a tournament I have no such qualms. Do you think the Book of Hoeth with a single, almost guaranteed casting of banishment is more worthwhile than the opportunity to double up on banishments or pha's (or timewarp, should I choose that as the duplicate spell)? It would certainly afford me the opportunity to deal with some key threats first turn before they can become a nuisance, however it would also mean a relatively unprotected archmage, so I'd have to play that model a bit more gingerly than I normally do.

My second question is regarding the list as it stands currently - what army/list do you think will pose the greatest threat to me and why? I'm going to try to arrange some games at my local shop, and would really like for these games to be versus tough opponents. Any thoughts or comments you might have are welcome and very much appreciated!

D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:21 pm 
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I think double Pha's and double Str6 Banishment is better than 50% IF on something more random. I think your setup is actually more reliable than the Book of Hoeth.

Your worst nightmare is Daemons, with the Standard of Sundering (Lore of Light miscasts on double 1s, 2s, 3s), particularly with no Greater Daemon. Other than that, a Slann with Lore of Light (to effectively cancel your buffs) and discard 6s could be bad news.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Short question, how do you feel your bsb is working compared to giving him rgoh? That extra S and channel seems very good in this army.

As for Hoeth, taking it means more miscasts since you generally roll more dice. It also means that empire, dwarfs etc will be rather annoyed as their extra dice and scrolls are wasted. The question is which you would rather have then.

As for hard matchups, I would say Dark Elves, MSU lizardmen and maybe Dwarfs.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:47 pm 
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@ Dabber - I tend to agree with you regarding the magic phase. Hoeth I see as more reliable if you want your spells to go off early in the game, before the opponent's magic defense has been whittled down. I see my current phase as more reliable long term, however. Once the opponent's magic defenses have been strained keeping up with the volume of power dice this list produces, it really starts to gain momentum. Turn 3 onward it really pays dividends.

I can set up a match against a strong Lizardman player pretty quickly, so I'll try to make that my next match. I'll request that he he makes an ugly lore of light based list (he's fielded one before against me)

Regarding the Daemons - How often is that standard fielded in the current meta, given that light is a less popular lore? It would definitely create some serious headaches, and would be the hardest counter I can think of for sure. The Hellheart could make my day a little tougher as well. It really begs the question of whether or not I should try to fit the Ring of Corin in instead of the Jewel of the Dusk. I sacrifice one guaranteed power dice per turn, but it gives me something to use against really awful items like cupped hands, Banner of Sundering or the Cursed Puppet. What are your thoughts on this?

@ Curu - You know, it's funny. When I wrote my last post I said to myself "I had three things I wanted to ask...", and that was one of them. So far I can think of maybe one game in the past 8 months where anybody has even bothered attacking my BSB. The Radiant Gem would definitely be beneficial to increase the power of the banishments from "scary" to "downright terrifying". I'm inclined to think that it's worth the potential risk to his survivability. If he gets to combat and he gets killed, I feel like the game will have progressed far enough that I can get by without his rerolls. Famous last words, right?

I think I'll give this a shot next match.

Regarding the Book of Hoeth/miscasts - I'm inclined to agree here. Miscasts are nasty, especially when you start stacking mages. I think I'd prefer my slightly safer magic phase, and use a strategy of starting with fewer dice attempts until his magic defense has been taxed, at which point I can start breaking out the big guns.

Thanks again for all the comments guys!

D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Regarding the Daemons - How often is that standard fielded in the current meta, given that light is a less popular lore?
My local Daemon GT Winner says Light is by far the biggest threat to his army, and the -2 to cast equalizes the enemy level 4 with the Daemon level 2. Especially considering its low cost and the ability to normally equip the BSB, he considers it a no-brainer choice. The -2 leadership banner is also really nasty, but is so nasty that it can make people mad, so it gets hit in any sort of slight comp environment. The Standard of Sundering doesn't.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:53 pm 
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The BSB with RGoH could either act as a compliment to your Archers (maybe with ironcurse icon?) or you can just not care if he dies. With Light of Battle, it's not that big of a deal as it otherwise would've been :)

You could consider dropping Jewel of the Dusk to include Ring of Corin. Between 4 Channels and Banner of Sorcery, your offense should usually be sufficient. Ring allows you to better cope with e.g. Pendantlord, Deathstars and the Banner of I HATE LIGHT LORE from Daemons. Just a thought ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:02 pm 
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I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, but does anyone else here find it silly that pretty much any list that is written on here (Or most other armies for that matter) always end up facing this question:

"But how are you going to deal with *insert random Daemon nonsense*"

Ok rant mode off.

Unfortunately the Daemon army is one of my least played armies. Having said that, I'll ask around at the store to see if anybody there plays them (I seem to recall one guy bragging about how badass his Daemon army was)

Here's what I'm thinking list wise in my next game:

Archmage, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix, Ring of Corin, (Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Pha's Protection, Banishment)
Mage, Annulian Crystal (Light)
Noble, BSB, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth (Light)

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
14 x Swordmasters
18 x White Lions, Standard, Musician, Banner of Sorcery
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

I've never used the Ring of Corin before - what would be your casting strategy with it? If you suspected cheese from your opponent, would you just drop 6 dice on it right away? Are bound spells limited to the 6 dice casting limit like casters are?

D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
I've never used the Ring of Corin before - what would be your casting strategy with it? If you suspected cheese from your opponent, would you just drop 6 dice on it right away? Are bound spells limited to the 6 dice casting limit like casters are?
Same 6-dice limit as normal spells.
I haven't used Corin in 8th either, but if you really want to get rid of a specific item (like the Pendant), I would save the Ring until success is certain. That means their scroll is gone, and you can throw at least two more dice at the Ring than they can use to dispel. Ideally 2 to 0, because the +4 to dispel against +0 to cast really hurts Ring of Corin.


[EDIT]
Assuming Ring of Corin will destroy Daemon Banners, which seems to fit with the FAQ, but is not perfectly clear and is utterly illogical from all other text...
Against the Sundering Banner, and with open lists, you 6-dice Corin on turn 1 and pray for IF. If it isn't IF, it gets scrolled. The Daemon player should be saving his scroll for the Ring of Corin.
With closed lists, the Daemon player should not expect the Ring of Corin, and you try to draw out his scroll with single target spells and low dice Banishment (which might miss the casting value). A single successful Banishment might draw the scroll. But between the scroll (or two) and dice, I doubt you can unmake the Standard of Sundering until turn 3 at least. By that point, it may be too late.


Last edited by dabber on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:39 pm 
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How about versus the Sundering Banner, where your magic phase is otherwise halted? Risk it with normal casting? Or go for broke (Pretty much a 25% chance of swinging the game back your way, because 3D6 hits at S7 is really going to hurt)?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Well this is an interesting turn of events. Looks like the popular vote has resulted in the tournament point limit being set to 2200.

What does this mean for me? Well it definitely means some structural changes to my list, mostly from the character perspective. So how do I truncate my list to free up 300 points, in a list that's already at a point where I need to make some sacrifices to get the things I want.

There's certain facts that are pretty much absolute if I want to stick to the coven style that my list has taken recently:

- S7 banishments would require proportionally too many points invested in magic at this level. It'll have to be S6
- To achieve the S6 banishments, the BSB will need to be a mage warrior, and thus vulnerable.
- I'll need to be more selective with my arcane items. Jewel of the Dusk is definitely out, so it's more of a toss up between Ring of Corin, Silver Wand, Seerstaff and the Anullian Crystal.

I've started drafting some preliminary ideas, and would love to hear some other's thoughts on them. The first is a 2200 point rendition of the list with an attempt to retain the coven feel, and the second is a list which abandons the coven for a more standard build.

List A (Coven List)
Archmage, Forliath's Robes, Ring of Corin, Level 4 (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 1, Anullian Crystal (Lore of Light)
Noble, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Ironcurse Icon, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour (Lore of Light)

31 x Spears, Full Command
22 x Archers, Musician

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
14 x Swordmasters
16 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

List B (Standard List)
Archmage, Forliath's Robes, Anullian Crystal (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (High Magic - Vaul's and Flames)
Noble, BSB, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, Great Weapon

31 x Spearmen, Full Command
11 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
14 x Swordmasters
14 x White Lions, Standard, Banner of Sorcery
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

Alternatively, with list A, I could swap out the magic item loadout on the Archmage for the book of Hoeth and surrender to the fact that if the opponent has the Sundering banner I'm pretty much screwed. I feel like the Book becomes a more powerful option at this point level, since I can't really afford to double up on spells due to the opportunity cost with my magic defense. I see the Anullian Crystal as too valuable, especially versus difficult magic phases I'm sure to face like Dark Elves and Lizardmen.

Anyway, I'm disappointed that they put such a low point cap on the tournament, but life goes on. The reasoning was a combination of time per match and too many models to paint (army needs to be fully painted)

Which list do you think would work better from a functionality point of view, and which one do you think retains the feel of my original list the best?

D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:08 pm 
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Hey sorry for the random question, but how do you get two banishments in an army? I thought once all the spells were learned by your army any of the extra mage lvls were lost :/


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Quarak wrote:
Hey sorry for the random question, but how do you get two banishments in an army? I thought once all the spells were learned by your army any of the extra mage lvls were lost :/
Picked spells, like those from the Seerstaff, don't count against that. Read the section on picking spells very carefully. :3

With Teclis and Seerstaff, you can get three instances of a particular spell in an army.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:26 pm 
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~Milliardo~ wrote:
Quarak wrote:
Hey sorry for the random question, but how do you get two banishments in an army? I thought once all the spells were learned by your army any of the extra mage lvls were lost :/
Picked spells, like those from the Seerstaff, don't count against that. Read the section on picking spells very carefully. :3

With Teclis and Seerstaff, you can get three instances of a particular spell in an army.

Ahh ok I do remember reading that! Ok didn't know that's what seer staff counted as :)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:08 am 
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List number 1. Simply put, if you go Light for army synergy, there is little-to-no reason not to pack the full coven.

Flames doesn't synergize well with your list: Timewarped Swordmasters chop apart anything and everything that can be taken in big numbers (i.e. that Flames is good against). What you're having a problem with is big toughies, e.g. Hydra, Greater Daemon. Against these, Banishment is golden.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Hey Guys,

Thanks for all of the input on my list. I'm inclined to agree with Curu - at a 2200 point limit, my investment in magic goes up proportionally, but so too does the proportional cost of the units the coven will typically be targetting.

So I have a big week coming up for my list - I've got the local game shop league night, where I'll be testing it against a random opponent, then on Friday I've managed to line up a match against one of the better Lizardmen players that I know. I told him to bring his big guns, so I'll be interested to see what he comes up with.

I'm going to stick with my 2500 point format until the tournament gets closer - I find 2500 to be the most balanced point for all the armies, and it seems to be generally accepted (with the exception of this tournament -.-)

I wanted to talk a bit more about the Ring of Corin, and why I've chosen to include this item above the plethora of other great arcane items the High Elves have access to.

First and foremost, the ring of corin gives us an answer to many of the things that would otherwise pose a problem for us. There are many lists that bank a significant portion of their strategy on the abilities of one item. Having an "ace up your sleeve", so to speak, can really disrupt your opponents plans. For example, if that unkillable Dreadlord is all of a sudden killable, it fundamentally changes what that model can do.

Second, it affords you this ability without dictating lore choices. It allows you the ability to deal with these items without being forced into one lore. Because of this, it is very easy to suprise an opponent with the spell, compared to if you simply roll the spell, not only is it tougher to cast, but your opponent knows you have it and can plan to defend against it.

Finally, I come to the point that is often overlooked regarding this item. It has a profound psychological effect on your opponent which can extend even beyond the game you're currently playing. Bear with me here.

Let's consider two situations. Situation A is that your opponent doesn't know it is in your list. Situation B, then, is that your opponent knows you have it

Situation A
- Pretty straightforward - once you're sure you've eliminated your opponent's magic defenses, you have a nearly guaranteed ability to neutralize a game altering magic item.

Situation B
- Your opponent knows you have it, and because of that, while it remains unused, they have a tendency to be more conservative with their dispel dice. Because of the minimal power dice needed to activate the ring, you effectively reduce the amount of dispel dice you are facing with your *other* spells. It allows you to manipulate their normal dispelling strategy, and forces them to account for an easy to cast, potentially game altering item. Essentially, it indirectly creates a mini "book of hoeth" effect - your opponent lets through spells that they wouldn't normally let go through because of the risk of the ring

Finally, consider what happens once players start to figure out that you occasionally field that item. In a closed list situation, they start accounting for an item that may or may not even exist. For example, when I go against the Warriors of Chaos, I naturally assume the Puppet is somewhere out there. Indeed, the knowledge that the puppet may be out there changes the way I cast my spells, favouring more conservative rolls.

Very few of our arcane items are secretive in nature - +1 power dice, +1 spell, choose spells - these are all very beneficial effects, but they are also very straight forward. They help our cause tremendously, however the opponent knows they exist and can see the effect immediately and thus plan for them.

The Ring of Corin is something that is tough to plan for, especially in a situation where you don't know if it is around.

Just some food for thought!

D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:16 am 
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The Ring of Corin - Once used with on my dwarf opponent on his grudge thrower for a laugh.

Should have saw the look on his face when suddenly his Elven Flatten device suddenly became fairly usely....

great item for all-comers list.

Favorite normal targets are - Ward saves, Banners that annoy me and magicial armour.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:41 am 
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Agreed about the Ring of Corin. Looks like the future will see a lot of action from you, Mr D! Can't wait to read more reports ;)

PS - are you set on making the Coven work @ 2500 points? I've pretty much decided to do my best throughout 2012 to make the Star Dragon work :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:16 am 
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Yep, I think you've covered the Dragon niche quite nicely, so I'll focus my efforts on a non-book of hoeth coven of light list for the next while. I'll also be sticking to the 2500 point format as much as possible.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:39 pm 
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Sounds good :) Can't wait to see the book-less Coven try its hands at some serious lists - it is indeed one of my favourite non-standard HE builds! With that being said, I'm really unsure of what suits it best though, a focus on shooting, swordmasters, white lions, cavalry etc. Here's to hoping you'll find out :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:53 am 
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Hi Brewmaster!

Some questions, if you don't mind :)

1. Why do you have doubts about your scaled down army? It seems you are quite confident at 2500 with no so many more warriors on the field but then at 2200 you seem to have second thoughts?

2. At 2500 you have 2 archers units while at 2200 you combined them into a single regiment. Not saying it is a bad idea (both ways are good as long as you know what you want to do with them) but I am just curious about it.

3. Why do you want to practice with 2500 when the tournament is at 2200? I am sure that getting experience with 2200 army would benefit you with bigger games while it is not necessary the same the other direction.

It seems that Light Wizards become more and more popular. I think you and Siegfried have just helped me to decide which lore to take :)

Looking forward to reading about your new battles. Good Luck!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Swordmaster makes a lot of sense and I second his questions ;)

Is there any comp for the tournament?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Hey Guys,

All great questions! Let's get to it:

First and foremost, no, there's no comp for the tournament. There is a sportsmanship score wherein your opponents rank whether they'd play your list again, however it's not a proportionally high percentage of the score, so expect to see some of the worst stuff imaginable. It typically draws about 50-60 players.

My doubts stem from the reduced reliability in the magic phase. I simply can't afford to keep the mage setup as is, as it would be proportionally way too many points. This means I sacrifice my Seerstaff mage. This means I lose my ability to cast banishment twice per phase, making it significantly easier for my opponent to prioritize dispelling against. As a result, Banishment poses significantly less risk for my opponent at this point level than at 2500

I combined the archers in the smaller list mostly because of the drop of numbers. Since they're serving as a bunker for my coven, units of 10 might be a bit too easy to force panic upon, or deprive look out sirs. This is something I'd like to test out, as it's no big deal to split them up into two units.

I'm going to stick with the 2500 point format because it's the point level that both my gaming group and our local game shop (Including our league night) has set out as the standard point level. It also seems to be the general consensus online as the standard point level, and I'd like for the list to be relevant for any other players looking to use/build off of it. Having said that, with a month or so to go before the Tournament, I'll switch to 2200 in order to get a few games under my belt at that level.

I'm really glad you've decided to give the Lore of Light a go with your list Swordmaster! I firmly believe the lore is the sleeper hit of 2012.

I'm really looking forward to trying out a match tomorrow night and seeing how S7 banishments treat my list.

D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:20 pm 
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I didn't say I am going to go for Light :) Seeing as it is more and more popular I will stay true to the True Magic (at least for a while). :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Got a chance to play recently at the local game shop again. It was league night, and when I randomly drew up an opponent, there was a bunch of "ooo's" and "aahhh's". I guess this guy has a reputation for being one of the best in the area. He was coming in from out of town, so I had no idea what to expect. Turns out, he was a really nice guy, but lived up to his name - it was a great game, and it really helped me ask some good questions about how I should be playing this list.

His List:

Chaos Lord, Disk of Tzeentch, Talisman of Protection, Mark of Tzeentch, Crown of Command, Biting Blade, Stream of Corruption, Screamy shooty thing.

BSB, Flaming banner (Not sure what else here, didn't really come up)

Level 2, Cursed Puppet, Lore of Fire
Level 2, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Dispel Scroll Lore of Fire

28 Chaos Warriors, Banner of Eternal Rage, Mark of Tzeentch, Halbreds
30 Marauders, Flails, Mark of Khorne
30 Marauders, Flails, Mark of Khorne
5 Warhounds
5 warhounds

2 Chaos Chariots
1 Warshrine

Hellcannon

Deployment

Image

Once the chaff was down, he committed one Marauder horde to the right flank and one to the center, leaving me with little guesswork to see where the Warriors were going. I liked my odds vs. that unit with all of my elites and magic advantage, so I opted to weight that flank, looking to take some early points via banishment on the Chariot/Warshrine/Hellcannon, then finish off that unit of warriors and use the building to divide his forces.

For the first time in 8 games, I actually win first turn, and happily take it!

Turn 1, High Elves

Image

Swordmasters move up, with the rest of the forces moving more conservatively. Dragon Princes move up to punish any aggressive movement on his part, and the Eagles set up to distract the Eastern flank.

Magic is 11 v 6, with him getting boxcars for channelling, and me getting 4 extra dice between channels and the banner. I start off with a 3 dice bubble Pha's protection, which he allows. I then throw 3 dice at banishment with my Archmage on his hellcannon, and naturally roll a 3, 1 and 1. This leaves me with 5 dice vs. his 6, and nothing else gets through. Hey, at least I got pha's right? I had really hoped to get a single target timewarp off in this phase on the swordmasters, using the banishments to draw out his dispelling. Not sure I would have played this phase any different in retrospect, as I wouldn't want to get any more aggressive with the dice this early with the puppet almost definitely in play. Sometimes luck just doesn't go with you :/

Shooting is relatively ineffective, so we move on to his turn.

Turn 2, Warriors of Chaos

Image

He moves his dogs up to divert the imminent swordmaster charge and his lord on the disk loops around the Eastern side of the building and his middle marauders, along with the BSB (not pictured here, he leaves the warrior unit) move forward towards the building. The rest of his troops move up, relatively conservatively due to my charge arcs.

In magic it's 7 v 5 so he throws 2 dice at flaming sword of rhuin on his warshrine. I allow this (since the swordmasters are pha's protected) and dispel his attempt at a flamecage on my white lions.

He shoots a hellcannon shot on the archers outside of the Pha's bubble, killing a few and panicing the rest. His warshrine puts +1T on his chaos warriors, which is as good a result as any versus my high strength attacks. Except maybe the ward save. I try not to talk about that though.

His Lord screams at my dragon princes, but fails to wound them.



Turn 2, High Elves

Image

With his Chaos warriors 16" away, I see an opportunity to set up a great combo charge. I line up the white lions, swordmasters (with the intent to timewarp the swordmasters) and dragon princes, with the Dragon Princes being the nearest to the unit at 14". I angle the princes as a precautionary measure (If some of the movement looks a bit wonky, I apologize. I assure you it was all legal, and these were pretty close to the positions they were in)

I charge the distractionary dogs with my swordmasters with the intent to reform them after.

Magic is another 11 v 6. I start with a 2 dice single target pha's on the swordmasters with my level 2, which he allows. I then go for a 3 dice banishment on the hellcannon with my archmage... and whiff it again! The next banishment from my level 2 casts on a huge 18 on 3 dice, and instead of use up most of his dispel dice, leaving me a free spell, he scrolls it. Nothing else gets cast due to his glut of dispel dice, and once again I'm left with a single pha's protection to show for my sizeable magic investment.

The swordmasters predictably dice up the dogs, and reform to make for a long charge for the Warshrine.

Turn 2, Warriors of Chaos

Image

I go into his second turn feeling pretty confident in my position. I'm confident in my ability to deal with his lord once I have a decent magic phase, and the middle of the board is a big do not fly zone for him at this stage of the game.

First, his Hellcannon fails its restrain roll, and moves forward 5"

He then declares a charge with his chariot, and after some careful consideration, he declares a charge with the warshrine as well - it's a long charge, needing a 10+. Sure enough, he makes it with both and passes his difficult terrain test.

He then takes his restrain test with his Warriors... and fails despite the reroll from his BSB. I think to myself "Well this is an interesting development..."

At least until he rolls the charge - a big roll of 11 has him blast right through my carefully laid trap and right in to my Dragon Princes. Well that went from 60 to 0 in no time flat for me lol!

Magic is 5 v 7, and I dispel his 5 dice attempt at a fully powered fireball on my White Lions.

In combat, the Warriors Shred through the 5 Dragon Princes, and due to the positioning of the Archers and White lions, no units are able to wheel properly on the overrun. We talk for a bit about how this would work - in reality the archers are actually angled a bit more facing the lions, making it impossible for him to wheel in, and the White Lions make it impossible for the Archers to either. Not sure what would happen in this case, but it doesn't matter anyway because he only rolls a 5 for his overrun.

The chariot does an underwhelming 3 wounds with impact hits, and the swordmasters do 3 wounds to it in return. They fail, however, to wound the warshrine (4+/4++ T6... yeesh) and take 4 more wounds in return from return attacks. They pass their steadfast break test.

Turn 3, High Elves

Image

With disaster now imminent in the middle, I know that I'm in need of some creative tactics. First, on the far West, I move my unit of swordmasters to face somewhat South - In the actual game (not my crappy attempt at recreating it in battle reporter :P) they are actually perpendicular to the back of the White Lions, and can see right down the unit. I then move my level 2 out of his unit, in a gambit. The goal here is to go for broke this magic phase and either a) kill the lord with banishment or b) get rid of his 3+ ward with the Ring of Corin. Then if he charges the mage with the lord, the swordmasters can countercharge the next turn and finish him off. A mage for a Chaos Lord seems like a good trade to me. Alternatively, if he charges the Archers, even if he kills and overruns, he has to stop 1"away from his own unit, where my swordmasters can still trace a legal charge. Hopefully I explain that well enough!

In the middle, I shuffle the White Lions over so that a legal charge by him only gets the invincible archmage and two more models worth of frontage. I also charge his approaching chariot with my spears, but he successfully flees (He didn't want me up in his Marauders with those spears)

Finally, on the Eastern Front, I charge his dogs with my archers. He flees, but I manage to catch them (he rolled a 3). Seizing this opportunity, I set up a second speed bump in the form of the eagle, with him facing a direction that will open up the flank of the Marauders to my spears.

Magic is 7 v 3, I start off with a bubble pha's (3 dice), which he allows. I put the remaining dice into banishment on his lord. This makes him sweat quite a bit, and he ends up throwing all 3 of his dice to try for a double 6. He fails to meet my value, so I roll my 2D6 - 10 hits! Out of those 9 are wounds, and he rolls his saves. Naturally, he passes 5/9 5+ armour saves, and after the ward reroll, only two wounds squeak through.

Shooting and combat are relatively uneventful with the swordmasters putting two wounds on the War Altar, and it failing to do a wound in return.

Turn 3, Warriors of Chaos

Image

His Warriors and Marauders make their charges, and the fleeing chariot fails to rally. His Lord takes the bait on the mage, and I flee - If I get away, great, he's in a vulnerable position. If I held though, there was a chance of a big overrun and him escaping. Worst case scenario if I flee, he redirects into the archers, which I already accounted for with the swordmasters. In the end, this is exactly what he does, and he slams into the back of the archer unit (I forgot to put in the picture that I turned them around to face him).

Magic is 5 v 6, and he throws it all again at a powered up fireball on my unengaged unit of swordmasters, but fails to get irresistable and I dispel it.

His shot with the hellcannon goes wide on my swordmasters, and we move on to the combat phase.

We start with the archers in the East, who do a miraculous 5 wounds out of 6 attacks on the Marauders. The frenzied barbarians wipe out the archers to a man in return, and due to their frenzy have to overrun right into my eagle. Their flank swings around and presents itself nicely for my spearmen.

The Western swordmasters manage to put down the warshrine, and the lord unleashes his stream of corruption on my archers. He only does 2 wounds with it, however, and he fluffs quite a few attacks, leaving me with a full rank. He then points out that I'm more than 50% in a forest, stripping me of steadfast. Whoopsie! The lord overruns as expected, and stops 1" short of his unit, with his back end hanging out nicely for the swordmasters to see.

The warriors, being limited by the invincible archmage and BSB who accepted his Mage's challenge, only manage to tie combat with the White Lions, and casualties are minimal. He reforms at this point to 10 wide.

Turn 4, High Elves

Image

I issue the obvious charges; spears into the flanks of the marauders and swordmasters into his lord. He holds with both (The angle of the lord if he fled would have a great chance of running off the board in the actual game). I also charge the hellcannon with the swordmasters. I realize this was a bit of a crap shoot, and in a tournament setting I'd have tried to conserve those points rather than attempt that.

Magic is 11 v 8 (he got boxcars for channelling) and I come out of the gates with a single target Pha's (2 dice) on the lions. He allows this, and I follow up with a single target timewarp on the lions as well (3 dice), which he dispels with 4. I then put a 4 dice pha's protection bubble out and he fails to meet my casting value. At this point I use my remaining dice to activate the Ring of Corin and strip his lord of his Ward save. This leaves me with White Lions that are being hit on 6's, and his lord in a very vulnerable spot.

In combat, the white lions do their job and put 11 wounds on his warriors. He rolls some excellent hits, and ends up killing 8 of the lions in return. However, I still win combat (my BSB also killed his mage in the challenge), but he passes his steadfast break test. Now, here's where I could have employed some pretty shady tactics - I could have reformed my diminished unit of White Lions into a conga line with the Archmage at the front and held there indefinitely until I could get my swordmasters in. However, seeing as it was a league night, and this guy was a lot of fun, I opted not to.

The swordmasters manage the final wound on the lord, and turn to support the white lions.

Turn 4, Warriors of Chaos

Image

His Marauders in the East rally, and the hellcannon charges my eagle. Other than that, we're running out of units to move lol.

Magic is 6 v 7, and he throws it all at a Timewarp on his warriors, finally getting the double 6's he was after. This gives him +1 attack, and strips me of my rerolls in combat.

In combat, his now 4 attack each Warriors manage to just finish off the remaining white lions, leaving only the BSB and Archmage. They both break from combat, killing the BSB, but the Archmage gets away. He steamrolls right into my swordmasters for a final throwdown.

Hellcannon kills my eagle and reforms to face my vulnerable mages.

Turn 5, High Elves


My Archmage rallies, and the spears charge his marauders.

In magic, I'm hoping for a big phase, and natrually roll a 1 and a 2. I'm without my banner and half my channels now, so I throw all three of my dice at a timewarp of my own. He fails to dispel it.

In combat, I do a fair number of casualties, but he takes the unit of swordmasters down to 2 men, and they break from combat. At this point I concede the game.


After battle analysis

What a great match! I definitely learned a lot, so I think I'll focus on things that worked and things that didn't in my synopsis:

Things that worked

- Taking advantage of the Frenzy on the marauders was perfect - it allowed me to deal with a unit that would have otherwise posed a pretty big problem for me with minimal casualties
- Despite my lackluster rolling in the phase itself, this magic setup definitely provides a diffcult to shut down magic phase. Having duplicates on the important spells is ace
- The Ring of Corin came through in a pinch to give me a tonne of points on his lord. If he had gotten return attacks on the Swordmasters, that combat may have gone significantly differently.
- My gambit with my level 2 mage, although very risky, ended up paying off as well

Things that didn't
- Magic finally picked up a bit in the end, however the key turns, 1 and 2 were a complete letdown. Having said that, with the number of dice I was rolling, there was only like a 4% chance of failing the spells I was attempting, so I have to resist the urge to make statements based on anecdotal evidence. Sometimes &^$% just happens lol
- I could have been a bit more conservative off the start and avoided that charge. It came down to 1" in the end, and due to my overwhelming ranged ability I could have played much more defensively off the start.
- I'm trying to think if it would have been worthwhile trying to assault that building. I'm going with no - the casualties I would have inevitably taken would have been unacceptable. I'm open to any wisdom here though!
- I forgot about my level 1 in the unit of archers. Losing him was just carelessness on my part, as I could have ran him out of the unit

Anyway, hope you guys enjoyed reading this report! I'd love to hear any comments or crticisms.

I played a game against a Lizardman opponent the next day, so I'll be putting that report up as well tonight.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Why do you mean by the line that technically you could have reformed the White Lions into a conga-line with the unkillable Archmage in front? Combat reform cannot remove models from contact with the enemy.


I'm really surprised his Lord was not in combat turn 2. It seems like he had some good charges lined up, either to slowly grind down the spears, or to hit archers with wizards, or even white lions. Were you playing open list so he knew about the unkillable Archmage and the Ring of Corin?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Hi D,

Excellent battle report. Like all of the best batreps, you not only told us what you were doing, but what you were thinking as well. Well done, and it looked like a good game.

I think that you were wise not to assault the building. Although it was a safe place for his sorcerer, it also kept one of his big blocks out of combat, which was to your advantage. I also think it was good to advance on the left as you did. Although it opened you up to the biggest charge of the game, his hellcannon was more of a ranged threat than your archers were. Also, just waiting for him to come to you would have allowed his troops on the right to get into a much better position. You did a good job of using the building in the middle to split his army, so good tactics on that part.

I did see a few decisions which I was scratching my head about. I'm not sure why you didn't flank charge with the white lions on turn 3 instead of shuffling over. Certainly you would have had a better chance of winning that combat had you flanked? Also, I'm not sure why you didn't flee with the eagle when the hellcannon charged it; it seemed to die for nothing.

One other thing that might have helped would have been to keep the DPs on the right side. Although you could not have foreseen the long charge roll, if the DPs had stayed on your weak flank they would have had much more freedom of movement and been a better distraction. On the left they really only got in the way. It is probably better tactics to keep the spears supporting the other infantry and the DPs moving around on the weak flank rather than vice versa.

Also, dabber is correct that you cannot reform to move models out of combat.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Quote:
Why do you mean by the line that technically you could have reformed the White Lions into a conga-line with the unkillable Archmage in front? Combat reform cannot remove models from contact with the enemy.


Thanks for this guys - you're absolutely right. Incidentally, I remembered that I wanted to do something with reforming, but couldn't remember what. This helped me to remember - I had wanted to move my troops over to come into contact with his, opening up the flank charge from the Swordmasters. However, because it was his turn, he opted to reform first, preventing me from doing so. My mistake on this one!

Now, your questions:

Quote:
I'm really surprised his Lord was not in combat turn 2. It seems like he had some good charges lined up, either to slowly grind down the spears, or to hit archers with wizards, or even white lions. Were you playing open list so he knew about the unkillable Archmage and the Ring of Corin?


I thought he would be more aggressive with him too, and I even remember him saying on Turn 3 "This guy has gotta get into combat". It wasn't an open list, but he was very canny. He points at my mage at the start of the game and says "Teclis?". When I respond in the negative, he says "Hm, he's probably invincible then". I think Banishment was the real cause here. I don't think he wanted his lord down the center on the off chance that I could use him as a stepping stone to get to his Warriors quickly.

Quote:
I'm not sure why you didn't flank charge with the white lions on turn 3 instead of shuffling over.


Nice observation! I actually had the same thought, but luckily got out the 90 degree tool and saw that because of my 3rd rank placement, just over half of my unit was in his front arc, which would have been another round of unsupported combat that I didn't want to get involved in. My apologies for the picture on this one - league night is a fixed amount of time to play, so I try not to slow things down with my note/picture taking. My accuracy suffers a bit during the reporting.

Quote:
Also, I'm not sure why you didn't flee with the eagle when the hellcannon charged it; it seemed to die for nothing.


Again, reporting inaccuracies - his hellcannon was closer to the lions than the picture shows. He could have potentially redirected into the lions (albeit needing like an 11 or 12). I didn't want another fluke charge to swing the game, so I gave up the eagle. Probably a bad choice, but the psychology of taking two long charges had taken it's toll at that point.

Quote:
One other thing that might have helped would have been to keep the DPs on the right side. Although you could not have foreseen the long charge roll, if the DPs had stayed on your weak flank they would have had much more freedom of movement and been a better distraction. On the left they really only got in the way. It is probably better tactics to keep the spears supporting the other infantry and the DPs moving around on the weak flank rather than vice versa.


In retrospect, I tend to agree. Although with all of the high strength models in this match there really wasn't many good pairings for the Dragon Princes. My rationalle was with all of the meatgrinder units, my only chance would be to concentrate my forces on one point, and mitigate the damage by either a) killing enough to cut into return attacks or b) getting my troops with area of effect defensive buffs.

Having said that, you're 100% right - had my spears been in the warrior combat, there's a good chance I would have broken them on the turn I won combat. Again, this comes back to what I mention at the start of this report, that this game made me think critically at how I use some of my troops. It's nice to hear it from another person too!

I got distracted by the fact that for once in their lives the spears actually had a decent target for their S3 attacks - the marauders. This caused me to forget about their most important role, which is to provide ranks!

Thanks for the comments guys, hopefully I make you proud in my next report :P

D

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