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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Here is where my thinking is going:

Archmage, Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix, Jewel of the Dusk - 345
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery - 165 (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Annullian Crystal - 140

35 x Spearmen, Full Command -340
14 x Archers, Musician - 159
11 x Archers, Musician - 126

14 x Swordmasters - Banner, Banner of Eternal Flame - 232
14 x Swordmasters - 210
19 x White Lions, Full command, Banner of sorcery - 365
5 x Dragon Princes - 150

2 x Great Eagles - 100

So essentially I give up the lion chariot, but I gain: 1 extra channel, 1 PD per phase, an additional S on Banishment and an additional opportunity to cast it per phase, and the ability to stack Pha's Protection for some real protection.

Hm, I'll be interested to try this out!

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Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Why would you ever take the Wand of Jet? Jewel of the Dusk provides more dice (1 a turn, not just 1) and costs less. I don't see how once adding an extra dice on a low roll that just misses the casting value can compensate for 5 more power dice on other turns, plus a better ward save. Wand of Jet isn't an item new army books consider, even though they have almost no magic items.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:14 pm 
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Hey Dabber,

Sorry, that's what I meant. That was a typo. I'll change it in the post.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Looking good!

I just want to say that in your future games, and in particular the evaluation phase post-game, try and separate how the mage-setup worked and how the units worked. The reason I'm saying this is because I really believe in this setup but I'm unsure of what units go best with it.

Looking forward to some serious games now ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Hey guys,

Just a quick update. I'm going to be trying these recent changes to my list for the first time tonight. Should be a good match!

I'm going up against Orcs & Goblins. I know for sure I'm going to see a horde of savages, and probably a horde of black orcs as well. I expect to see a pretty decent amount of artillery, as well as he's hinted about moving away from his all orc theme and trying some blocks of goblins as well.

Should be a great opportunity to really test out this new list, so expect a battle report tomorrow.

D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Excellent! I am going to fight against O&G soon too so I would love to see what you come up with against green horde. :) Just watch those pesky Manglers! :)

Good Luck!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:44 pm 
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Looking forward to seeing some activity, especially since your new approach is rather unorthodox! Keep us updated with reports etc :)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Sea of Green

Ok, had my first game with my MSU/Coven of Light hybrid list. It was... interesting. Yeah. Let's go with interesting.

His list:

Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head
Savage Orc Shaman, Dispel Scroll
Goblin Shaman

Black Orc Big Boss, BSB, 4+ Ward Save

40 Savage Orc Bigun's - Full Command, Banner of Discipline
20 Goblins - 3 Fanatics

40 Black Orcs - Full Command
2 Boar Chariots

2 Doom Divers
2 Rock Lobbas
2 Spear Chuckas

And of course my list:

Archmage, Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix, Jewel of the Dusk
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Banishment and Pha's)
Mage, Anullian Crystal

Noble, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, BSB, Great Weapon

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

19 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
14 x Swordmasters
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

Deployment

Image

I deploy my heavy hitters on the left flank, with the hope of concentrating enough force to pop the horde of Black Orcs. I see them as the weaker of the two hordes, and much easier to collect points from. I also keep an eagle near those goblins, so that I can release those fanatics post haste, before he has a chance to hand of gork them right behind one of my units.

He gets first turn and we begin the game

Turn 1

Orcs & Goblins


Image

A general advance of his troops. My well placed rock in the center of the battlefield provides a natural barrier between his two hordes.

Magic is a bust for him. The crystal makes it 4v4, but it doesn't matter because he fails to cast Foot of Gork with 4 dice.

Shooting is another story...

A direct hit of his rock lobba manages to take out 10 spearmen, and his Doom Diver kills two Dragon Princes. A lucky bolt thrower shot manages to take out one of my Eagles. My troops pass their panic tests.

High Elves

Image

I declare, and subsequently fail a 16" charge with my Dragon Princes on his Boar Chariot, leaving them in a bad spot to recieve a counter charge.

My eagle swoops past the goblins, and the fanatics pop out (apparently into the air) and kill my eagle.

Magic is a big letdown - I roll a 3 for the winds of magic, and only a 1 for the bonus from the banner of sorcery. The total is 5 v 3. I start off with a banishment on his chariot, and of course miscast. I kill 4 of my own archers, and manage to only put 3 wounds on the chariot.

I forgot to put it in the picture, but his level 2 actually popped out the back of his unit last turn to avoid any miscast templates, so I cast a banishment on him, which he scrolls.

Shooting, I'm able to take down 2 of the fanatics, leaving only one left.

Turn 2

Orcs & Goblins


Image

My swordmasters are just out of line of sight of the boar chariot, so he turns it slightly to threaten both units next turn. His other chariot charges the Dragon Princes, who flee to avoid taking the impact hits. His two hordes move forward menacingly.

Magic is 5 v 4, and he attempts an 'edbutt, but I shut him down. His shooting puts 4 wounds on the western most swordmasters and misfire with a doom diver and a rock lobba. He kills another 4 spearmen, leaving only 21 left in that unit.

High Elves

Image

The Dragon Princes rally, and the swordmasters move into position for charges next turn.

Winds of magic again only roll a 3, and the banner rolls a 1 again, but I manage to get one channel. That gives me 6 to his 4 (He channeled twice). I start off with a Pha's protection on the Western swordmasters, which he allows. He then dispels my two dice banishment attempt on his shaman (who is still out of the unit). I then manage to get a Pha's on the White Lions, who will undoubtedly see action in his next turn. Shooting is pretty disappointing, I manage to take out a fanatic, and fail to put the last wound on the chariot.

Turn 3

Orcs & Goblins


Image

His Goblins and Chariot both charge my white lions, and the Chariot on the right fails a charge at my Dragon Princes.

Magic is 9v7. His first attempt is a 4 dice hand of Gork. I dispel it with 4 dice. He then goes for a hand of Gork, succeeding irresistably and moving his unit of Savage Orcs behind my White Lions. His Great Shaman loses 2 levels as a result of the miscast.

His shooting puts 4 wounds on the Swordmasters containing the BSB, and his rock lobba hits the spears again, killing 6 and they fail their panic test, running to 2" from the edge of the board.

High Elves

Image

The Swordmasters and White Lions are pretty much forced to try a long charge because of the turn of events with the hand of Gork. Miraculously, they both make it in. The Northern Swordmasters charge the Bolt Thrower, lined up to overrun into the Rock Lobba. The Dragon Princes charge his Chariot, and the Spearmen manage to rally.

Magic is 12 v 6 - Finally! Something I can work with! I start off with a 3 dice attempt at a 12" bubble Pha's Protection on my Archmage... and fail. ^&%*.

My Level 2 Manages to get a Pha's protection on the white lions, and the rest is dispelled.

Combat is extremely bloody - The Elves put 20 wounds on him, and he puts 7 on the white lions and 1 on the swordmasters in return. He breaks from combat, and gets run down on a roll of 5.

The northern swordmasters kill the first piece of artillery and overrun into the second. The Dragon Princes put 2 wounds on the chariot, but it holds.

Turn 4

Orcs & Goblins


Image

His Savage Orcs fail their animosity and are forced to charge the archers that they can see and are 15" away. They fail, and move forward 3 inches.

His magic is uneventful, and at this point he concedes the game, as the Savages can't collect enough points to win, and the artillery was under immediate threat.


After battle breakdown

What a flukey battle. I don't know that I can surmise too much about the effectiveness of the list from this battle, because much of it was decided based on a few outlying dice rolls. Having said that, with regards to the changes to the list:

1. The fact that the mages need to be 12" apart at the most to reap the benefits of banishment is very limiting. This list flourishes in an environment where the units can move freely and use positioning to their advantage, and having that restriction makes that difficult.

2. Magic is such a random phase. This game is a great example of what happens if it doesn't work out in your favour - You've got close to 500 points worth of mages sitting around doing nothing.

3. Banishment adds another layer of randomness. When you really *need* it to pay off, you roll 4 hits, and 3 wounds on a 4 wound model. I realize this is the case with most spells, with every one of them requiring some sort of resolving dice rolls. However I find this one in particular, when you've written a list centered around investing in the spell, it really seems to be a lot of points invested in a 2D6 roll.

Having said that, I'll reserve judgement until I have an actual game, because games like the one above can't really be used to evaluate the overall effectiveness of a list.

D

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Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
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Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:38 pm 
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The Worst Game of Warhammer Ever Played

Here it is.

Lists are irrelevant.

Deployment:

Image

His troops are pretty central, with a unit of halbred warriors on the western flank, and his mage bunker on the eastern.

He gets first turn

Turn 1, Chaos

Image

Magic is 7 vs 9 - I manage to channel twice and steal one of his dice from the annullian crystal. He throws 6 dice at ecstatic seizures, and it goes off irresistably. He kills 21 spearmen, they panic, and run to within 2" of the board edge. The miscast gets adjusted by the puppet, and he loses a couple marauders.

Shooting - He fires a shot with his hellcannon on the white lions. Direct hit, 7 of them die.

Turn 1, High Elves


Image

After being decimated in the first round, I really had to make a comeback in this turn. I charge his dogs with my dragon princes, but fail. The rest of my troops move forward slightly, and the spearmen rally.

Magic is 12 v 6. I start with a banishment with my level 2 on his knights. Goes off with a miscast. I kill 3 knights, then the puppet causes him to S10 large template his unit, in addition to sucking him into the void. The Archers fail their panic test despite their reroll, and flee off the board, including the second backup mage.

My Archmage tries his hand at casting a spell - He goes for a Pha's Protection bubble. Miscast on 3 dice, he drops a S10 large template on the white lions, who then panic (yes, with a reroll as well...) and will be rallying on snakeyes due to being below 25%.

After losing 1500 points in the first turn, I concede the game.

Yes, turn 1.

I throw my dice in the trash and call it a day.

After Battle Analysis

I now remember the redeeming qualities of the Lore of Life.

I'm also still waiting for an actual game of Warhammer to evaluate my list with :P

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Thanks for posting the reports, Brewmaster_D!

I have just finished reading so I am going to post a few quick questions/comments:

1. I don't see HE turn 2 picture :(

2. Do I understand correctly that he charged his Savage Orcs into White Lions and then moved them with a spell (btw, you mentioned hand of gork being cast twice in the same magic phase :))? Why did he do that?

3. I wonder if it was not more beneficial for him to reform Black Orcs into deeper formation so he could remain steadfast.

4. This battle shows that it is very tricky to put so many points in wizards as they might not have an impact you want them to have. It makes me thinking about limiting the number of magic users in my army. But then, Light magic does need 2+ wizards.

5. Is it a plague? First Ptolemy and his awful rolls against VC, now you against WoC? :(

I will see if I can make some more comments when I have more time later but it was good to see your army in action. :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Thanks a lot for the reports! Looks like you had a very good and a very bad game, respectively.

As for your OnG game: although magic was poor here you managed to get a nice win :) Regarding your magic in particular though, the following issues spring to mind:
- In your 5v3 phase, you managed to get off one big spell, while the other was scrolled. I regard this as a very succesful first magic phase, don't you?
- In your 6v4 phase, you managed to get through the arguably most important spell, and the dice allocation meant that you'll almost always get at least one spell through, maybe 2. Remember that this is a situation in which he was extremely lucky, having 2 channels
- 12v6 phase: what was your overall strategy here? As soon as I roll up Winds I try and allocate dice to likely spells that I'll be casting, trying to add up and evaluate where my opponent is likely going to try and dispel me. If your Archmage is vital to such a strategy, I'd advice casting the first spell with a 90% + chance. If not, you can play it a bit more risky (which you did here) and still get something out of it (which you also did).
- Static mage set-up: I can agree with your issues regarding the mages having to be close together. With that being said though, where banishment is of the most importance is when you are dealing with monsters (hydra, hpa, terrorgheist, greater daemons++). In these situations this is unlikely to be a big problem (I believe) as these armies rarely sport the shooting to annihilate or force you bunkers away. On another note, against Orcs, Empire, Dwarfs etc (who sport more shooting and less monsters) you don't really need S6 Banishment that much and can allow yourself to spread out in favour of other spells.

As for miscasts - I really feel your pain! It was but a few games ago I lost my Archmage T1 to a 3D6 Flames being miscast. I, too, long for Lore of Life but I end up finding big, fast monsters to be too much of a problem for Life to handle well: I just don't see how our list can cope with these things. What do you do against 2 Terrorgheists, a Bloodthirster, a High Elf Dragonlord, Keeper of Secrets etc? Life can't help you cope with these things, and apart from magic bows and the overpriced RBTs, you're left with magic. Shadow and Light has reasonable answers.

It's actually an interesting evaluation, looking at big nasties. It has become clear to me that many lists simply implicate that 'many lists include cannons and/or stonethrowers. I won't bother including anti-monster units because of this meta'. This in turn has made me wonder whether a truly fast and hard-hitting High Elf force is viable: thelordcal recently won a tournament using such a list. I'm thinking something like this:
- Dragon Lord
- Eagle Noble
- Eagle BSB
- Support mage
- Core as you'd like
- DP/WL for special
- Eagles for rare
Now, I really don't know how your run-of-the-mill armies would cope with this. Might be worth trying out!

Anyway, you seemed to be having some ideas about how your setup works. Will you be changing anything or will you play some more games before you eventually make any adjustments?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:47 pm 
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Hey Guys!

Thanks for the replies!

@ Swordmasters

1. I'll fix that, my apologies!
2. That turn he didn't charge, he just moved his unit up, then teleported them behind. It's a bit tough to represent the teleport in Battle reporter.
3. He kept his Black Orcs in a horde because they were somewhat long charges for me - any one of my units going in alone would have been pretty disastrous for me. Luckily, he made the choice of whether to charge or not pretty easy to make by teleporting his savage orcs behind me.
4. I'm not sure I agree that light needs 2+ mages - I've had excellent success with a level 2 support mage. I look at it more from the perspective of S6 banishment being icing on the cake. However, these two battles really illustrate that the more you invest in magic, the higher risk you take of catastrophic failure like the one I had.
5. I would say most definitely lol

@ Curu

I totally agree with you about the difficulty in dealing with fast moving baddies. I think everyone has done a great job on this board of proving that our troops are perfectly capable of handling all but the toughest of infantry and knight blocks. However, my most humiliating defeats (barring that unlucky match above) have come at the hands of big flying monsters. This was my primary reasoning for switching the mage setup.

Regarding my magic phases:

5v3 - It was successful, however the success was a miscast, and came one wound short of killing the chariot, which was unfortunate. Statistically it should have taken it out, which would have freed up that flank that much more.
6v4 - The double pha's was good, but killing his Shaman, which he moved out the back of his unit would have been nice too :P
12v6 - My plan was as follows - 3 dice on a bubble pha's, which will likely force a dispel, as it would effect the key combat. 2 dice on a second, single target pha's on the white lions. 2 dice on a net of amyntok on his savages (With 3 mages in there, it's too tempting not to try). 2 dice on a Speed of Light to further mitigate damage in the central combat, and finally 3 dice at a Timewarp on the White Lions. Ideally this would leave me relatively unscathed, and anniahlate that central combat.

While I agree that they weren't bad magic phases, the first two certainly could have been better. Even a roll of snakeyes would have been a bit more desirable than 3 as it would have left him with 1 dispel dice.

I certainly don't think these games were an accurate gauge of the effectiveness of this list, so I'll definitely be giving it a couple more games - just trying to organize some as we speak.

Some thoughts I've been having regarding this list:

1. Core selections. I can't remember the last time my spearmen unit actually made it in to combat with anything resembling numbers. Since it is the only large, ranked unit I have, it always seems to either get templated or magicked into oblivion. It is also one of my most expensive units, and its primary function is to bring ranks into the equation, which just isn't happening. The question is, though, have I just been unlucky with it? Or would I be better served with all archer core?

2. Don't put mages in the same unit - it's just asking for disaster with this type of list.

3. S6 Banishment is great, but it's not like the list is a one trick pony, so I'm inclined to agree with Curu - keep the mages close if you need it, but spread out if the positioning advantage would reap more reward than the bonus to the Strength of that spell.

I'm actually really looking forward to playing this list again - I feel like my luck really came up short the last two games (I won in the Orcs & Goblins game, but personally I think it was a sloppy victory), and I'm excited to try the list again with a clean slate.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:40 pm 
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@ Curu,

I love the idea of the hard hitting and fast moving list, I was discussing something similar with Elithmar of Lothern http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=37161 on his flying circus thread, using similar principles but with more eagle characters and no dragon.

I think a list like this could really make a mess of the everyday list design and would really hurt large monsters, gunlines and deathstar armies.

I think the key to the list is speed and target saturation. If the list contains a dragon, 2 eagle characters, 2 regular eagles and 2 units of dragon princes there are so many hard hitting and fast moving targets that will hit you in turn 2 that most armies will struggle to stop it before they lose their artillery lone mages and archers.

I think in this list the strongest approach is a core of all archers in smaller units that can destroy the enemies small fast moving units/support units and allow your army to run rings around their large blocks and execute combined charges.

I think archers are important compared to spearmen since the spearmen wont keep up with your blitzkrieg and more importantly they wont be able to present an immediate threat to draw fire and enemies away from your blitzkrieg.

I will have to try a list like this I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Brewmaster_D, thanks for posting up the battle reports, they're always great reads. That is really crap about the game against WOC, sometimes I firmly beleive everything is going to be stacked against you so I think you did the right thing in calling it a day, I don't think you would have learned much more from continuing.

It's interesting you mention the spearelves doing little, I always tend to find that I have at least one unit per game that literally does nothing and the games I win I somehow do it excluding that said unit wheather it be ranked spearelves or dragon princes so that's something I really have to work on and perhaps play a bit more aggressively to ensure they reach the enemy lines.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:45 pm 
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By the skin of a Dragon's Teeth

So last week I got an opportunity to test out Curu's dragon list (with a few Brewmaster tweaks ;)) against a friend of mine. I mentioned I was considering running this list in the tournament we're going to in March, so to bring something sufficiently hard. His normal army is Lizardmen, so I was expecting those, however he pulled a trick out of his hat and fielded his Dwarves. And who better to lead the Dwarves to battle than Thorek Ironbrow?

Dwarves

Thorek Ironbrow
Runepriest - Master rune of balance
Master Engineer
Thane - BSB, defensive build

40 x Longbeards, Full Command
12 x Quarrelers

21 x Trollslayers
24 x Ironbreakers, Full Command

Cannon, Rune of Forging
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Penetration, Rune of Accuracy

High Elves

Prince on Star Dragon, Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec - 622
Noble BSB on Great Eagle, Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness - 214
Noble on Great Eagle, Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard, Great Weapon - 191
High Mage lvl 2, Annulian Crystal - 175

Characters total: 1202

34 Archers, Musician - 379
23 Archers, Musician - 258

Core total: 637

23 White Lions, full command, Banner of Eternal Flame, skeinsliver - 410
5 Dragon Princes - 150

Special total: 560

2 Great Eagles - 100

Rare total: 100

Army total: 2499


Deployment

Image

My archers form up the center, with the White Lions on the Western flank, ready to take on the Ironbreakers. After the Ironbreakers go down, he pops down his characters. Ohboy, we all know what that means. I place my characters where they will be able to support the archers should any scouting nonsense put them in a position to threaten my archers. Once deployment is over, he plunks down a nice fat unit of longbeards 12" in front of my archers. We roll off for first turn and true to form I lose it.


Turn 1

Dwarves


Image

The Longbeards come barreling at me full steam ahead (which is comically slow), and the rest of his army sits tight.

This is where the pain begins. His first shot of the game is with his cannon. Naturally, he marks a bead on the Dragon. Misfire! woo! Oh right, Dwarves get to reroll everything. The cannonball hits the prince and his dragon. The Prince's ward protects him, but the Dragon isn't so lucky. 6 wounds later, it's left broken and bloody, but still alive.

Grudge thrower fires a shot at the western archers, scoring a direct hit and crushing 6 of them.

Then Thorek starts pounding on his anvil. He strikes the rune of wrath and ruin with ancient power, and rolls no less than 3 units to be effected. He chooses both my archers and the white lions. The rune does 8 wounds to the Western archers and 6 on the Eastern ones. The White Lions lose a couple, and they're all at half movement next turn.

Ouch.

High Elves

Image

My turn starts with an interesting turn - His unit of longbeards has the rune of challenge (Now that I'm looking at the book, maybe I missed a hero? The rune of challenge is a runic talisman, and longbeards are only allowed a runic banner from what I can tell). Regardless, my archers with the mage in it are required to charge this turn or are forced to flee. I shudder at the thought, but I need to get that dragon into combat quickly, or next round's cannonball will finish it off.

I declare charges with both units of archers, and both the BSB and the Prince. He passes his Terror test, and everyone makes their charges.

My other noble flies up alongside the great eagle to start threatening the artillery, and the Dragon Princes move up the right flank. The White Lions limp along at half speed from the rune they were subjected to.

Magic is 10 v 11, and I start with a 4 dice vaul's unmaking on Thorek. He dispels that, so I throw 6 dice at shield of saphery on the dragon, which goes off irresistibly. The miscast kills 4 archers, and the dragon has a 5+ ward save. From here on out, I'm not going to include the magic phase, because they can all be summarized as follows: I try to cast a spell, and he laughs at me and rolls a lot of dice.

In combat, we start off with the fear test - and what do you know? A dwarf unit can actually fail :P His troops have great weapons, so all of my models get to go first. When the dust settles, 22 of the stunty warriors lie dead on the ground. He directs 8 of his attacks against the dragon, attempting to do that last wound. One wound manages to sneak past the Dragon's high toughness, and he manages to make his 6+ armour save. 4 archers fall to the longbeard's great weapons, and he takes his break test.

What do you know, snakeyes. lol.

Turn 2

Dwarves


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With all the real juicy targets wrapped up in combat, he focuses his attention on the fast moving Western flank. He turns his units to threaten a charge on any aggressive movement on my part and we move to the shooting phase.

The cannon marks my noble with its laser guidance system and lands a shot dead center. There is now just a crater where he once was. The grudge thrower actually misses the White Lions despite its rerolls. The quarrelers put 2 wounds on the Eastern Eagle.

Thorek bangs on wrath and ruin, ancient power again and it effects 2 units. He chooses the White Lions and the Eagle. It manages to kill a handful of Lions, once again limiting their movement, and it only manages 2 wounds on the eagle.

In combat, the dragon and company manage to kill all but 5 of his longbeards, and they manage 2 wounds in return. This time they break from combat, and both the dragon and the BSB pursue - putting them both in an excellent position for next turn!

High Elves

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The Dragon and BSB swoop in on the quarrelers, not willing to let the momentum they've managed to gather slip away.

The Dragon Princes slip out of line of sight of the Trollslayers, and point their lances at Thorek's fat old face.

The White Lions limp along again, this time shouting "Hey guys, wait up! Come on, this isn't funny!"

Shooting, the Western Archers try to get some shots on Thorek, but his armour proves too much.

In combat, the Prince and BSB crush the Quarrelers and overrun into the artillery.

Turn 3

Dwarves


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He turns both of his units to face the nearby threat, and with the rest of his shooting eliminated or in combat, strikes the rune of Oath & Honour with ancient power. Both of his units barrel into the flanks of their respective targets.

In combat, the Dragon princes actually manage two wounds on the trollslayers, and take none in return. They pass their break test on a 7, and reform to increase frontage.

The Dragon manages to kill 7 ironbreakers, and they put no wounds on him in return (apparently all a dragon really needs is 1 wound...)

The Dwarves take their break test, and the cannon fails despite the reroll - poof!

High Elves

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The big unit of archers, due to their ridiculously long frontage, are within charge range of the Ironbreakers (It's actually a bit closer than it looks, I just wasn't about to go back and fix it in the picture :P). They make a somewhat long charge. The lions move up again (not shown in this picture... hey, it was late, don't judge me)

Between the archer's and the dragon's attacks, it's enough to bring the ironbreakers down to 2 ranks, and they fail their break test. I pursue with the archers and catch them, while the dragon reforms to face Thorek.

The Trollslayers, wielding their great axes, take down 3 of the dragon princes. The princes do 4 wounds of their own, which is enough to tie up combat.

Turn 4

Dwarves


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No movement, but thorek smashes the rune again. Wrath and Ruin, ancient power, but this time only 1 unit effected. 4 white lions fall, and they pretty much give up walking at this point.

The trollslayers finish off the dragon princes, and reform to face the action.

High Elves

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You know what comes next. The Prince and BSB both successfully charge Thorek, and together they manage to take down the dirty old runepuncher.


After Battle Thoughts


Certainly not the best matchup to support my argument of archers over spears lol! With a horde of longbeards in my face turn 1 and being forced to charge, the archers really didn't get to shoot at much at all. Having said that, at least they did a decent job in combat. In a wide formation like they were at the start, they're pretty resilient to template weapons, so even a direct hit wasn't over the top.

The Dragon was a beast this game. Even with just one wound, it managed to plow through the Longbeards, Quarrelers and Ironbreakers. I can only imagine what it's like with one at full wounds! That first turn really made me sweat - I had no idea how I was going to pull through. The lucky (for me) break test that kept the longbeards in play during my first turn was really a deciding point in the game. Had they fled, the dragon would have been right out in the open and facing another cannonball - this one surely killing it.

Thorek is awful. There, I said it. I'm sure playing against him is akin to the feeling people get when playing against Teclis - you're absolutely powerless to stop any of the chaos. Having said that, combat is the safest place to be when you're dealing with him, and he afforded me that opportunity early. The fast moving power of the characters really mitigated what would normally be a slow plod across the battlefield with Wrath and Ruin raining down on you.

I think I'll have to wait to play another game before I can accurately make a decision about my core choices - this one was just too atypical to really make a judgement call.

I'd love to hear your thoughts!

D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:32 am 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Certainly not the best matchup to support my argument of archers over spears .... Having said that, at least they did a decent job in combat.

I'd say its a perfect example of archers over spears. Basically it was their worst possible matchup, yet they didn't utterly suck. Mainly because they aren't much worse than spears in close combat, AND they get to shoot.

While Thorek makes it a hard Dwarf list, the scouting Longbeards with MRoChallenge Thain really don't fit with anything else he fielded. He made that worse by plopping them alone in the middle. If he puts them to the east, and drags in your BSB on turn 1 while trying to keep the dragon out of charge range, he might win.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:45 am 
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Hey Dabber,

I totally agree with you regarding his list - I think I'd have been in real trouble with a couple more pieces of artillery on the board and his big unit back with his main force making charges on the artillery difficult. I expect him to retool this list and be a real force to be reckoned with! Wrath and Ruin is just so punishing for an army like ours, chock full of high point cost T3 models.

dabber wrote:
I'd say its a perfect example of archers over spears. Basically it was their worst possible matchup, yet they didn't utterly suck. Mainly because they aren't much worse than spears in close combat, AND they get to shoot.


You know what I like about you dabber? you can say in 3 sentences what I've been writing novels about and failing to get across.

It's the versatility that makes them my top choice currently.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Great game, congrats on the win!

The Dwarf list was rather weird. Big GW blocks is not something the Star Dragon appreciates very much, but the lack of guns certainly helped you! The first Dwarf turn just goes to show how important the extra stats of a Star Dragon are sometimes.

I'm not familiar enough with Dwarfs to say whether his list was a viable all-comers or not. However, placing his Longbeards like he did certainly didn't help him - it gave you a launching pad to reach his lines and they died without support. Upon seeing your list, he should've played these way more cautious.

As for this being a poor matchup for Archers - I completely disagree. Against Dwarf lists in general, I most likely would agree: even an all-archer core can't threaten his war machines enough to warrant him focusing them, and their increased cost compared to Spears make them ineffective. However, in this situation the following is true:
- there is only 1 major threat to your dragon: the Cannon. All-archer core is a serious threat to this unit, as such he has to put pressure on the archers
- the special character means that usually, he can keep infantry away for a long time, if needed. As such, Spearelves for core would likely never do too much unless he wanted them too

I wouldn't say this is an ideal setup for all-archer core, but it's certainly not a bad matchup either. By bad, I'm thinking knightbus DE, any Skaven list just about, Bretonnians and Warriors of Chaos.

What do you think about the other elements of the army? As you know, I had to swap around a few bits to get the Amulet of Light in there: not being able to deal magical damage at all is simply too much of a drawback. Naturally, this was not a problem for you in this game, but at some point you're bound to run into something ethereal.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Curu Olannon wrote:
I'm not familiar enough with Dwarfs to say whether his list was a viable all-comers or not. However, placing his Longbeards like he did certainly didn't help him - it gave you a launching pad to reach his lines and they died without support. Upon seeing your list, he should've played these way more cautious.


Yeah, he's newer to dwarves, so his army definitely lacked focus. Typically the Dwarves I've seen either load up that scouting unit with characters and make it a bit bigger, supporting it with miners, or they go for keeping all of their blocks back and pound on the opponent with artillery during their approach. Using their infantry blocks to stop charges on their warmachines is relatively simple - put the units 1" in front of the machines and there is no room for a charging dragon or eagle to position itself.

Curu Olannon wrote:
I wouldn't say this is an ideal setup for all-archer core, but it's certainly not a bad matchup either. By bad, I'm thinking knightbus DE, any Skaven list just about, Bretonnians and Warriors of Chaos.


As a skaven player myself, I'd say that an all archer core is significantly more worrisome to me than spears. There's a few reasons for this:

- Archers can quickly and easily eliminate weapons teams (this is *huge*)
- With superior numbers, the rats are very well geared to fighting attrition wars - those archers will allow the high elves to reduce that number advantage before the units get to them.
- The archers can put 4.5 wounds per turn on the Plague Furnace (no armour on that thing), elminating unbreakable from the plague monk unit without subjecting themselves to all those nasty T tests or ridiculous number of S3 attacks from the monks
- The archers can theoretically take out a piece of artillery a turn

The only exception to this rule is the storm banner, which is one of those "Don't take this item if you want to keep your friends" type of items.

For the other two armies, you're looking at high strength attacks that will eliminate the spearmen's armour regardless, so knowing that I'd definitely take the archer's ability to eliminate the opponent's support elements quickly and efficiently. At a difference of approximately 9 models between spears and archers, you're not much worse off, considering what you gain in return - a sizeable ranged threat that guarantees movement phase supremacy.

Quote:
What do you think about the other elements of the army? As you know, I had to swap around a few bits to get the Amulet of Light in there: not being able to deal magical damage at all is simply too much of a drawback. Naturally, this was not a problem for you in this game, but at some point you're bound to run into something ethereal.


I think you're spot on with your changes. The Prince and BSB work well supporting each other, and the Nobles actually can die pretty easily in combat with only a 3+ rerollable. I think that the role that Noble filled can be done with an Eagle with much less risk (180 someodd points was an expensive cannonball!). In exchange, you gain so much - increased hitting power on the white lions and magical attacks to help in an all comers environment.

I think it was a good call! I played this game before you made those changes, however in fielding this list again I'll definitely make them to my list as well.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:51 pm 
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I suppose it depends on the environment. My intention is to try this list in a competitive setting - in which every Skaven list carries the storm banner. As far as the Furnace is concerned, charge it with the Dragon and challenge him out. Should make short work of it! I also believe that since it's a T test it's a characteristic test, hence the Prince will hardly notice, most of the time (what with testing on the Dragon's T and getting a ward). Weapon teams in these kind of games are restricted to wind mortars only, nobody takes rattlings or throwers (refer to the ETC lists) since they're too easy vp. As far as artillery's concerned, the WLC's are usually too far behind. Gutter runners will have a field day running in circles around your archers, too.

So again, it depends on the environment. As for the other armies listed, I suggest we simply play them and see how the core units perform ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Brewmaster... I like that list. Dragons and eagles are radical and I'm really liking the aesthetic of the army on the field (at least in my mind's eye). Thanks for playing with an edgy list and showing what it can do (props to Curu, too!).

My only problem now is the fact that I have the awesome CMON eagle and owl for my eagle riders and they darn-near dwarf my prince on a dragon... Maybe I need a new dragon? The Carmine dragon from FW, perhaps...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:27 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Gutter runners will have a field day running in circles around your archers


Really? I'd just musician reform and make a mess of them. Even 1 of those units of archers is enough to force a panic test, and they're testing on 7. Those guys are pretty expensive (as far as skaven is concerned).

Quote:
As far as the Furnace is concerned, charge it with the Dragon and challenge him out. Should make short work of it! I also believe that since it's a T test it's a characteristic test, hence the Prince will hardly notice, most of the time (what with testing on the Dragon's T and getting a ward).


This would work - It's T tests distributed per shooting, so I'm not sure how that relates with the rules on characteristic tests. I'd still watch out - it's 6 wounds and will definitely wear down on your dragon. The plague priest is S6 in the first turn and it requires committing your general to commit to a unit that will take 2 rounds of combat to kill the furnace and then another couple to take out the 40 plague monks. It's definitely an option, but consider how long it ties up your 600 point lord. It'd be really scary if a hellpit got in there at some point. Something to think about in your deployment phase really, when you eventually meet a list like this.

Curu Olannon wrote:
So again, it depends on the environment. As for the other armies listed, I suggest we simply play them and see how the core units perform ;)


Agreed! It's our game night at the local shop Thursday night, so I might bring both lists and see if my opponent is ok with a few proxies (Don't actually have any eagle nobles atm). If so, it'll be another great random test of the list. There's some pretty good players there, so I might talk a bit of S and see if I can get "randomly" paired with one of them :P

@Anvalous - Thanks a ton! 99% of the credit for this list belongs to Curu - this has been a list idea in my mind for a while, but Curu was definitely the first one to actually write it up and think it through. His character setup is spot on (especially after the recent revisions), so now the real difference comes down to playstyle. I'm of the opinion that this type of list can be fielded with different core setups depending on how you want to play it:

2 x Spear units
or
1 x Spear unit and 1x Archers
or
2x Archer units

I firmly believe that the choice of core drastically changes how this list is played, which is an interesting experiment in of itself.

Thanks for reading and replying!

D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:30 pm 
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An all-archer core should put a few wounds on the furnace/priest before the dragon charges, which means you should take it out. You average over 4 wounds a round with the Star Dragon plus Prince, so putting 2 wounds on the furnace with archers beforehand gives you good odds of a single round kill, and effectively certain kill before it can swing the wrecking ball. The problem, as always, is that you need a noble charging with the dragon to take the champion challenge.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Also, don't forget the breathweapon of the dragon. If you calculate that in, you do a little over 5.5 wounds in 1 round of combat against the plague furnace. With a little bit of luck you take it out in 1 round of combat.

Something to keep in mind VS warmachines is that since they officially don't have a base, you can touch them anywhere while charging to get a legal charge. So if he parks a unit in front of his warmachine, park your dragon next to the warmachine and use the one wheel to bring it into contact with the side of the warmachine. You also don't have to close the door, since there is nothing to "close against" so to speak. This makes it a lot harder to hide warmachines from charges from flyers (though keep in mind the wheel you make is 90 degrees max). Don't worry about distance. You only have to measure to see if you are in range. The charge itself can be as long as you want (restricted by the 1 wheel of course...).

It's good to see the dragon do well against dwarfs. I don't think many people would have given you a chance up front. Just goes to show, warmachines aren't everything. I agree that your opponent made some mistakes with the longbeards. If he had fled your dragon charge, you would have been in trouble, but still. Good game, and thanks for sharing.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:54 am 
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Hey Guys!

So I did manage to make it out to our local game night this past week, and was really looking forward to trying my list out against a random opponent. Because it was a store game, I opted to take my own list instead of the modified Dragon list, since I wouldn't have to proxy anything for the match.

I was randomly assigned an opponent, and I drew up an Empire player. Sure enough, when we get to the table, I see him take a cannon out. Then a mortar. Than another... and another... and another...

Oh God.

Our lists:

Empire

Arch Lector, War Altar, 2+ rerollable, Van Horstmann's
Warrior Priest, Armour of Meteoric Iron (1+ AS)
BSB
Mage, Level 1, Lore of Life
Mage, Level 1, Lore of Beasts
Mage, Level 1, Lore of Fire

14 x Knights, Full Command
12 x Crossbowmen, Musician
6 x Free company (Detachment)
6 x Handgunners (Detachment)

50 x Greatswords, Full Command
6 x Free Company (Detachment)
6 x Free Company (Detachment)

3 x Mortars
3 x Cannons

High Elves

Archmage, Forliath's Robes, Jewel of the Dusk, Guardian Phoenix Level 4 (Lore of Light)
Mage, Seerstaff, Level 2 (Pha's Protection, Banishment)
Mage, Anullian Crystal (Lore of Light

Noble, BSB, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, Great Weapon

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

19 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
14 x Swordmasters
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

So after my first glance at his list, I said to myself "how the heck did he meet minimum core?". After further research once I got home, I realized the answer was quite simple: "He didn't". Oh well. One of these days I'll play vs. a legal list lol.

Spells:
Mage (Life): Earthblood
Mage (Fire): Fireball
Mage (Beasts): Wildform

Archmage: Pha's, Banishment, Net, Timewarp
Mage: Speed of Light
Mage (Level 2): Pha's, Banishment

Deployment

Image

Because of his large number of detachments, warmachines and characters, I basically got free reign of this phase. I happily surrendered the +1 to my roll to go first in exchange for a nice fakeout with the archers and Dragon Princes on the western flank to draw out his arch lector thinking I was going to go heavy on that flank.

Once his army was down, I kept my key units tight together on the eastern flank for those handy light buffs and leadership bonuses. I deploy my units very wide to mitigate the template damage.

Naturally he won the first roll (that's 5 games without going first for those that are counting), and we began the game

Turn 1

Empire


Image

His chaff free company moves up, and his handgunners move into a position to be able to shoot next turn, but the rest sits tight.

Magic is relatively uneventful. I dispel a fireball on my eagle, and allow him to Wildform and earthblood his Greatswords. I also say to my opponent "You better hope that unit never gets dwellered... like ever".

Shooting - I brace for the incoming pain. His first cannon shot is on my Western Eagle - hit, wound, 3 wounds on a D6. Dead eagle. His next two cannonballs are on the Dragon Princes, each taking one out. All 3 mortars shoot at the white lions - when the smoke settles, one direct hit results in 4 lions laying dead on the ground. The rest just have dirty jackets. His crossbowmen take out 2 more dragon princes due to crappy rolls on my part.

I wipe some sweat from my brow, and we move to the next turn.

High Elves

Image

I advance my troops full steam ahead, aiming to shut down his shooting ASAP. My lonely Dragon Prince charges his free company, on the off chance he can make it - he flees, and the prince moves forward 4".

Magic comes up big for me - 12 v 8. I start with a Pha's bubble with 3 dice from my archmage. A big roll has me in a good spot - He rolls 4 to stop it and takes it down. Next I roll 3 dice at the spell a second time from my level 2 - goes off, and he rolls 3 dice to dispel my average roll. He fails to meet my value by one, and all of my Eastern troops are protected from shooting next turn. With only one dice left on his side, I throw 3 at a Banishment on his knights from my archmage. It goes off successfully, and I score 11 hits on my 2D6 roll - now we're talking! 6 knights drop dead from the magical energy. I then throw my remaining 3 at a powered up Banishment from my level 2 - He is also successful, and kills another 4 knights. What was once a fleet of glistening armour and stomping hooves is now just 4 lonely knights.

Shooting phase, I manage to kill a couple handgunners and they panic.

Turn 2

Empire


Image

He moves his chaff up more to intercept my advancing infantry. Other than that, it's a pretty static movement phase. His free company that fled the Dragon Prince rally.

Once again, I allow his two buffs on his unit of Greatswords, and dispel fireball - I have no intention of tangling with them this round.

In his shooting phase, he starts with the cannons. The first one makes his 4+ roll to shoot my remaining eagle. 2 wounds later, the eagle is hurting, but still alive. The next cannon lines up a shot... but Pha begins to show his power. The cannon fails to fire, and so does the third. Then the mortars start, aiming to rain death on the white lions again - but every single one of them is unable to fire.

My opponent looks at me and shakes his head. "What spell is that again?" He says, reaching for my cards.

His crossbows manage to take out my last Dragon Prince, and we move on to the next turn.

High Elves

Image

I declare a charge on the first unit of chaff with my white lions, which flees, so I redirect to the second, which also flees. Luckily, my white lions roll huge for their charge range, and catch the fleeing free company. This puts them mere inches away from his vulnerable artillery, but also within charge range of his knights. The spears reform and turn to face the two incoming threats head on; the arch lector and the greatswords.

Magic comes up huge again - 12 v 8. I start off with a Pha's bubble with 3 dice, which he dispels. I then manage a Banishment on his knights again, but after some careful measurement, it becomes apparent that their charge took the archmage out of 12" from the other light wizards. The S4 banishment only nets one wound on the knights. Finally, I go all out on a timewarp bubble from my archmage; I want that extra movement to guarantee my next turn's assault. this goes off.

Turn 3

Empire


Image

He staggers his artillery, bracing for the onslaught, and moves his knights to threaten the flank of the lions/redirect the swordmasters if they get aggressive. His greatswords also reform to face the white lion's flank and his mages move to a free company bunker behind the action. His arch lector attempts a charge on the spears, but fails.

Magic, is a bit different this time; since I intend to assault his unit next turn, I don't want him getting wyssan's wildform off on the unit (the assaulting swordmasters have the banner of eternal flame, so earthblood is inconsequential). Luckily, this phase rolls relatively low, and I'm able to succeed in my goal. Only eathblood goes off.

Shooting is at 1/3 effectiveness since two of his artillery pieces moved. Two of his cannons fire grapeshot at the white lions, but only manage to produce two wounds. A partial hit from the Mortar produces another casualty, and the final mortar shot misfires, disallowing a shot this turn.

High Elves

Image

This turn really needs to be read, the picture doesn't do it justice.

The High Elf host springs into motion; the swordmasters declare a charge on the free company, and they flee from the incoming weapon experts. The swordmasters redirect into the Greatswords, and the stage is set for an epic battle (My goal here was to grind on this unit as much as possible while my other two elites finish up the artillery and knights.

My Eastern Swormasters charge in to finish off the knights, and naturally, the white lions commence tearing apart the artillery. The spears make a somewhat long charge on the Arch lector, and we move on to magic.

The winds roll 8, but I manage to channel one, add one for the jewel and 2 from the banner, giving me 12 dice to his 7. I start off with a speed of light on two dice on the Western swordmasters, and he fails to dispel it. They're now weaponskill 10. I then get an irresistable Pha's protection on 3 dice on the same swordmasters, and unfortunately my level 2 loses both his levels. I throw 3 dice at another pha's protection on the same unit, and he manages to dispel this. I finish off the phase by successfully putting a Timewarp on the same swordmasters. So these guys are now WS10, I10, 3 attacks each and are at -1 to hit...

I kill a couple crossbowmen with my archers and we move on to combat.

My Eastern Swordmasters kill two of his knights, and he does one wound in return - his knights flee off the board, and the swordmasters reform to face the artillery. The white lions shred the crewmen of the cannon they're assaulting and overrun into the next artillery piece.

The super fast, super hard to hit, super skilled swordmasters start their assault. Despite all of their buffs, they only manage 14 wounds (I know, only...) on the greatswords due to some incredibly lucky 6's for armour saves. His return attacks come back at me and he rolls 3 hits out of his 25 attacks. I then realize I forgot to allocate attacks on his Warrior Priest to eliminate his hatred... and he rerolls his misses, scoring another TEN 6's. When all is said and done, 12 swordmasters fall dead from the return attacks and character attacks - blah! They lose, but don't lose by much, and manage to hold.

On the Western front, the spears direct all their attacks at the Arch Lector's war altar, but don't manage anything. He kills one of them in return, and the battle is a stalemate.

Turn 4

Empire


Image

His crossbowmen charge in to help the Arch Lector out, but besides that, he's pretty limited to what he can move. His fleeing free company rally.

In shooting, two of his artillery pieces misfire; a cannon and a mortar. The cannon explodes (and I forget to take it out of the diagrams), and the mortar can't shoot this turn. The remaining mortar shot misses the swordmasters, and the cannon takes two more off their numbers.

Magic sees him get Wyssan's off this turn due to a luckier phase (I think it was 5v4, and I rolled low to dispel). Despite it, my swordmasters manage 4 more wounds, but are killed to a man in response.

The spears in the West manage 2 lucky wounds on the War Altar, and a couple on the crossbows. The crossbows break, but the altar is unbreakable.

High Elves

Image

The white lions reform and shuffle down, leaving room for the swordmasters to overrun after their charge on the cannon. The archers also charge the flank of the war altar. I think silently to myself "I wonder how many S3 hits it takes to take that thing down?" - the answer... a lot.

Magic, I get a net of amyntok off on his remaining mortar, and a pha's protection and a timewarp off on the white lions (can you tell my note taking got a little dicey at this point?)

I manage no wounds on the arch lector's war altar, and predictably obliterate any artillery the swordmasters touch. Remember that C2 isn't actually there anymore due to a misfire.

Turn 5

Empire


Image

Not wanting to tangle with Timewarped and Pha's protected White Lions, he moves up his detachment for support and hopes for the best in the coming magic phases. His crossbowmen rally.

Magic, he is able to get a wildform off on his unit, and I'm unable to stop it (irresistable force)

Shooting, his only shooting is netted, so we move to combat.

My spears manage another wound on the war altar, leaving it with 2 left. The swordmasters finish off the artillery piece, and restrain from overrunning - I have bigger plans in mind!

High Elves

Image

I charge in with both my swordmasters and my white lions.

Magic is 7 v 6 , and I start with a Pha's protection on my white lions... and fail with my archmage. That leaves me with only Speed of Light on my level 1, which I attempt but he easily dispels it. Great, looks like you're going at this one unbuffed fellas.

Combat is nasty - I direct the BSB's attacks at his warrior priest, but only manage 1 wound. I decide I need to work at elminating the unit to get rid of stubborn and return attacks, so I focus all my attacks at them. I do 18 total wounds to him, and in return he reduces the white lions to 4 models (about 10 casualties). He passes his break test, but I'm confident I can kill the rest of his greatswords next turn - especially since the swordmasters reform to get every model in base contact.

In the East, the spears and Archers manage to put the last two wounds on the War Altar, and seeing his beautiful golden griffon destroyed, the Arch Lector flees from the units. Neither unit, however, manages to catch him.

Turn 6

Empire


Image

He fires one last mortar shot at the recently freed up spearmen and scores a direct hit - 14 spearmen fall dead, but the rest resist the urge to panic.

I shut down his magic phase for a final time thanks to the annullian crystal, and we move to combat.

The remaining swordmasters and white lions manage to take out the remaining greatswords and break heroes. With that, my opponent concedes the match.

End result: A Massacre for the High Elves!

After Battle Thoughts

So let me start with this, because I know you're thinking it. It wasn't the hardest gunline in the world. Yes, it had 6 pieces of artillery, but it had very little in terms of ballistic skill shooting, no level 4 wizard and frankly, I don't even think it was legal, failing to meet core requirements.

Having said that, I think this match was a great showcase of two things: First, it really showed what lore of light brings to the table defensively. I realize it was lucky, but Pha's protection effectively shut down one of his most important shooting phases. I also realize that I was unlucky with my buffed swordmaster rolls, but that unit was nothing to scoff at - nothing short of a hatred wielding horde could have taken that unit on buffed the way it was.

Second, it really showed the power of banishment *when it works*. My opponent, despite his bonus dispel dice, had relatively mediocre magic defense, but with so many bonus dice, it becomes very reasonable to expect overpowering magic phases. It was very apparent second turn, when 10 knights evaporated from S6 banishments.

I made a couple mistakes this match, namely not killing that warrior priest in the large unit to eliminate hatred, but having said that, it was quite a bit of fun for me, especially given the lackluster performance of my magic phase in recent games. I feel like this was the first game where things worked "the way they are supposed to".

Finally, I'm not sure why he put his Arch Lector on the flank like that. He was cursing it almost the minute the game started, but I still don't know what his thinking was at the time.

Hats off to him though, he was a great sport and a very nice guy. Always nice when you get an opponent like that.

Hope you guys enjoyed the read, feel free to leave any comments or criticisms!

D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:12 am 
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Congratulations! It is a nice thing to see your army winning against gunline (and not legel one too!). It would be even nicer if some of the HE turns pictures where not hiding behind the word "image" :)

Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:35 am 
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Good game, well played!

Despite his army being illegal, I believe you demonstrated how poorly such an army composition can handle certain threats. If you had taken the Dragon though, it might've been quite a bit worse!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Congrats on the win.

I like the way you used the lore of light, is inspiring and it sure does teach me a lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:06 pm 
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Hey Guys,

Thanks so much for the comments!

@ Swordmaster - that's weird, they're all loading for me. Is anyone else having a similar problem? You might want to try hitting ctrl+F5 to clear the cache in your browser.

@ Curu - When I saw his list, I thought the exact same thing. I would have been pretty much dead in the water. Unfortunately that's something that you'll just have to accept about a Dragon list - the counter for your list is a very hard one. Having said that, I was really impressed with the Coven's ability to use the Lore of Light to fill whatever niche this army needed turn to turn. I think I'm going to experiment a bit more with this list, as I was really impressed with how it handles itself when it "works". And by "works", I mean not exploding itself on the first turn lol.

@Lagast - Thanks so much! I learn quite a bit myself in posting these battle reports, so it really makes me glad to know that others are getting something from it too.

I'll post more thoughts on the game a bit later today.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
So after my first glance at his list, I said to myself "how the heck did he meet minimum core?".
Why not ask him that immediately? That was my first thought as well.

Deployment indicates the same thing as the illegal list - this guy does not know what he is doing.

Is there any apparent reason why your opponent saved 1 dice on turn 1, and rolled 3 instead of 4 against your second Pha's?
I'm a little surprised by Banishing the knights on turn 1. Why not Net or Banish war machines instead? I love starting phases with Net on a war machine, because the opponent really doesn't like losing a war machine shot automatically, but also doesn't want to dispel it.

I'm really surprised by Banishing the knights on turn 2. They aren't big enough to hurt you if they charge, and fleeing with the detachments shows he doesn't know how to use bait.

Forgetting to target characters always sucks. I figured that was the main point of that Swordmaster charge - kill off all his characters, and you've paid for the Swordmasters no matter what else happens.


Thanks for the write up. As I hope you can tell above, I found it interesting!


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