Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Quote:
I would really like some feedback from the more experienced people around here, particularly tournament veterans, about what you think about my flaming White Lions.


Hey Curu, looks like we both had a pretty busy summer, haha! Welcome back.

Flaming attacks have specific uses and specific downfalls. On one hand, they can eliminate regeneration, but on the other hand there are some very cheap magic item options that will render the unit very ineffective.

I can think of one moment in particular that is relevant here; a long time ago I was playing a Lizardman opponent. I had a unit of Dragon Princes with a Prince in them. My opponent looked at me and asked "They're the guys with the ward vs. flaming attacks, right?". When I answered affirmatively, he just said "hm". His unit of Temple Guard started acting pretty funny after that!

Last thing you want is a major points investment like the proposed block of White Lions neutralized by a 10 point magic item. The banner is a narrow focus item, and as such I agree with Tiralya that you don't want it on a general purpose unit like the Lions. Your list's goal is to be competitive, so I don't think it's wise to write in such a potential hard counter, regardless of how common it may or may not be.

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Tiralya wrote:
Your biggest combat block has flaming attacks, this means they can be tarpitted easier, I prefer my flaming banner on a smaller unit designed for hunting.

I picked up on this as I think it's an interesting point and worth some discussion. I assume that by smaller unit for hunting you mean either a unit of DPs or WLs. Note that whilst I agree that your point is valid in some circumstances, it has never happened to me. Generally I find it's characters that are immune to flaming and a decent rank bonus should be enough to overcome them in combat anyway.

Considering which 'hunter' unit to use... In the case of the DPs this means that they are no longer naked (more points in the unit) and that they probably need to have a musician too to make sure they can catch said unit being hunted. IMHO you might as well go the whole way and add a champ with the PoS/increase the unit size as they have suddenly become more valuable and are costing you more points ergo you don't want them to be killed-at which point a different banner (arcane protection maybe?) becomes more useful. So we are left with the WLs (I haven't considered a small unit of SMs as they have a lower AS v. shooting and lower strength). I don't actually think this is a bad idea but I wouldn't use it myself. I'm not a fan of MSU other than the usual 14 SMs I take due to the frailness of HE and the preponderance of horde units in 8th. Against nasties and for flanking, etc this is an ok idea though. Plus stubborn is always fun.

For me I generally stick the flaming banner on my unit of Spearmen (35 or so) which is also usually where my Archmage(life) goes. They are perfectly good at killing a-bombs, etc on a good turn and the 10 points I pay for the banner also means I have to spend less points on crappy core choices. The downside is that on a bad turn when you are not buffed the spearmen are pretty sucky and also have low initiative (for an elf) meaning they won't negate regen if involved in a dual combat with say PG or a lord/hero.

The way I see it, it is not about being tarpitted by an immune to flaming unit, in fact, the opposite. I often find myself against multiple, large regen units against which a larger combat unit is more reliable and durable. For instance, the new ogres can give regen to everyone within 12" or 24" (don't remember which) and this would not be fun for 10 WLs. Better to be attacking with a unit of spearmen (or other large unit) who admittedly do less damage but will last more than a round of CC. Other nasties i.e. trolls and player who take life (many people these days with the generous amounts of miscasts and throne protection) also need debuffing from their regen. Again, I think a large unit wins hand down unless you hit the combat with multiple units, negate the regen with the unit with highest initiative and then attack with the rest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Curu Olannon wrote:
Do you really think this is big issue? .


On balance, I'd rather have flaming on the WL. The advantages outweigh the risks. I'll quit playing Devil's advocate now, the discussion is lively already :)

@Chayal: I'll be going to 2D6 Challenge, only WE player out of 40+ it seems :twisted:

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:14 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7805
Location: Queensland, Australia
John, the only thing to do is get your play test on. I prefer my MSU hunters and flankers, and making them 22points more expensive doesn't worry me a lot, but that's just how I roll. Play some games with them and if you find it not working out for you make some changes, it'll be fine.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Tiralya wrote:
John, the only thing to do is get your play test on.

I might have to add this to my 'playtest this idea' list. I'm currently play-testing a foot prince and tbh I'm finding that 250 points is probably better spent elsewhere. My main issue with this is that I generally play 3 regular opponents: Ogres, Empire and WoC. This means small units tend to get mortared, gateway'd or bonecrunched (particularly annoying on DPs - hence why I have a fondness for the Arcane Protection banner). I might try it as I'm currently in the process of trying to rid myself of the underachieving prince and maybe add some WLs. This will either be a small unit (MSU with SMs) or I'm also considering dropping the SMs entirely and taking a larger unit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:07 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
It is interesting to see your opinions on this matter, and I will post a more thorough evaluation later on. I would like some more input first though, primarily from those of you who read this but have not posted yet.

So as you know tomorrow I will be playing a 2000 points game for my Mighty Empires campaign. Since at 2000 I will not have my Prince I feel that the flames need to go to the Spears. The list will be as follows:

Unkillable Archmage, life - 350
Bsb gw, aoc, dawnstone - 168

34 Spearelves, full command and flame banner - 341
14 Archers, musician - 159

30 white lions, full command and banner of sorcery - 530
5 Dragon Princes - 150

2 eagles - 100
1 repeater - 100

1898, leaving 100 points to play around with. Have yet to decide how to use these ;)

Oh and John, since all our troops have asf they all strike simultaneously. This means that whoever holds flamebanner cannot negate regen for others, despite higer Initiative. Example, flaming PG will not make trolls lose regen vs Spears, since PG and Spears attack at the same time.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:14 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7805
Location: Queensland, Australia
100 points can buy you a lot, a msu flanker unit of whatever you want infantry wise, or a small unit of Reavers to help those Eagles redirect.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:33 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
First report in a long time! Unfortunately, this is only a 2000 points game, but it shows a bit with regards to how my new list is going to work out. My opponent was new to 8th edition and hadn't played since 6th edition. Regardless, he played well and had a tough list to crack.

:: Honour & Valour ::

My new list:

Unkillable Life Archmage
BSB, great weapon, armour of caledor, dawnstone

34 Spearelves, full command and flame banner
14 Archers, musician

30 White Lions, full command and Banner of Sorcery
5 Dragon Princes
6 Swordmasters, Bladelord

2 Eagles
1 Repeater

His list:

Black Orc Warboss, 2+ armour save, 4+ ward save
Black Orb BSB
2x Goblin Shaman, one dispel scroll

20 SpearOrcs
20 Additional hand weapon Big uns
20 Bow goblins
20 Spear goblins
20 Black Orcs

Rock Lobba
Spear Chucka
Doom Diver
3 Wolf Chariots
1 Orc Chariot

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got a perfect combination of regen, flesh to stone, throne, regrowth, dwellers

A solid list indeed, especially for one who hasn't played in 8th edition! Those chariots were a real headache... Magic-wise he got 1, 3, 4 and 6 from Little Waaagh. I won deployment roll and got first turn due to +1 for finishing deployment first (since he was new, we played battle line).

Image

Note: my small unit of Swordmasters held the left flank (hence the weird movement from his orc chariot) but had no impact throughout the game. Since I forgot to put them in the diagram I didn't bother to go back and change it due to this.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Full speed ahead! I was hoping to disrupt his flank opposite my Dragon Princes and Spearelves and then combo-shatter his middle. My left Eagle moved up into the tower, forcing 2 fanatics from the bowunit of goblins. Having no good way to put them, he shot them into the hill to kill them off. Magic was 9v4 and I got throne through, followed by regen lions and T7 spears. Perfect! Shooting wounded one of his chariots twice.

Image

:: Orcs Turn 1 ::

Cautious moves on his part. Magic was 12 v 6 but nothing major happened. His shooting phase saw the Doom Diver misfire, being unable to shoot for this turn and the next. The Rock Lobber missed the Dragon Princes, as did the chucka.

So far, so good!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Eagle charges lobber and this releases 2 more fanatics, this time from the speargoblins. He opted to move them towards Lions. I move up to get my units in place for the right flank. I present the Spears as the only real viable target, the Eagle blocking his Big Uns' charge on my Dragon Princes.

Magic however screwed me over as I get 9v4 but fail my flesh to stone on 2d6. Sigh, no magic - at this point I really could've used it too.

Shooting sees my archers + repeater take down the 2 fanatics - phew!

Image

:: Orcs Turn 2 ::

He combo-charges my Lions with a chariot and the speargoblins. The Big Uns and Spearorcs combo-charge my Spearelves. He declares waaagh as well and a wolf chariot charges my eagle in combat with the rock lobber (that fight was uneventful until now by the way).

Magic sees him get 9v6, resulting in bad moon going off (I failed to dispel by 1!) but it doesn't do anything interesting throughout the entire game (hence I didn't include it in my diagram). Gork'll fix it also lands on my White Lions (re-roll all successful 6's). Sigh...

Shooting - his Rock Lobber is engaged, Doom Diver disabled, chucka misses.

Combat sees my Spears due fairly well, killing about as many as they lose. Naenor the BSB was wounded twice by S5 big uns and I failed both armour saves - luckily both were saved on the re-roll! I still lose though, due to waaagh and charge, but hold on the re-roll! The chariot kills my Eagle and we're left with the central combat.

Here, I over-dedicated against the Chariot, killing it twice over and even more so. Don't really know why I did that, anyways the result is that I lose combat by 3 but hold on the re-roll (thank you stubborn!). I lost about 8 Lions and he lost 5 Goblins + Chariot.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

At this point my opponent announces that he has to leave fairly soon, effectively making this the last turn.

My Dragon Princes charges the Big Uns. Eagle tries for the Chucka but can't reach it.

Magic: 9v4 - I get throne off, but flesh to stone is dispelled, and regrowth is scrolled.

Shooting sees me kill the chucka.

Combat - my Dragon Princes really put the hurt on the Big Uns and my Spears kill quite a few Spearorcs. They both break and flee but are caught by the Dragon Princes' 11" pursuit move. The Spears reform to face the center.

The other combat is a disaster - I kill lots of Goblins but fail my restrain roll, overrunning into the Black Orcs (11" away!). Perfect, just perfect. Here I have 19 Lions remaining and his entire army is about to come crashing home into me.

Image

:: Orcs Turn 3 ::

He charges my Lions with a chariot and the bowgoblins (which has 2 shamans in it!), intent on bringing them down. His chariot charges my Eagle. Magic is uneventful, as is shooting.

Close combat - the eagle dies (doh!). The interesting one however is in the centre... I kill a few Black Orcs and even manage to kill a shaman. The returning onslaught leaves 7 Lions standing though, as well as Olannon. I roll my LD9 stubborn break test and get 2 5's. Naenor is nearby and I roll again, the first die turning up a 6. The second one is a 1 however, giving me the game!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

I lost 2 Eagles.

He lost: 20 Big Uns, 20 Spearorcs, 20 Speargoblins (including 3 banners), 1 chariot, 1 chucka, 1 shaman.

A big victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

Casting a spell with a value of 8+ on 2D6 means you fail once every 12th time. Being this aggressive with magic is hardly worth it and I need to remind myself to throw 3D6 at throne and flesh to stone.

The Lions hit hard, but die easily. With dispel scrolls, chariots etc it's hard to keep them alive for sure. Additionally, I probably should've played them more cautiously, waiting for my Spears and cavalry do to their thing on the other flank. As it turned out, their honour really saved me - as 2 crucial stubborn rolls were passed to give me the game.

Other than that, I don't think I made any huge mistakes. The Lions were a little too aggressive and the magic usage a little restless, but the right flank worked out perfectly. Had the game gone on it would've been really interesting - my Spearelves would've charged his Black Orcs' flank with nearly full strength and the magic phase could've been very interesting indeed as he was 1 shaman short and had no scrolls left.

All in all, a fairly decent game which taught me a lot about how my new army is going to play. I can't wait to get proper cavalry back through - although 5 Dragon Princes REALLY hurt, adding Saerith just makes such a big difference (basically I could've played them centre in a much more flexible role).

C&C welcome :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am
Posts: 394
I don't have much to criticise, especially seeing as you picked up on most of it. The main thing I would suggest (although you did say to take more care next time) is to watch the number of dice you use to cast each spell. I don't think using so few dice (2) to cast a critical spell like flesh to stone is a fantastic idea (at the very least, not as your first casting attempt in a given turn), since not only will it be easier for your opponent to dispel assuming you manage the casting value, you'll also risk the chance of ending your magic phase, as happened in your case... Assuming you had used 3, you would have been left with 6v 4 or less, still at least one die ahead, would this not have been enough? Then again... I guess 7v4 is a better prospect...

Just curious, was there a driving force for only using 2 dice? What were you planning for the rest of your dice in that phase? 9v4 is a pretty good phase - and its just so easy to screw up by breaking concentration like this...

Actually. Ignore most of that ^^ I just checked out the chance of failing on 2 dice and its like ~ 8%. So it wasn't like it was a chancy move or anything. Bad luck I guess then. :(

Anyway, I see you're feeling the loss of your cavalry. I have a question, now that you've got the huge block of lions - I see a lot of people saying in this edition that a solid unit of cavalry simply just isn't as good as its equivalent points value in elite infantry... What's your argument against this?

Personally, I think there is simply more to it than "10 DP's or 20 WL's", because the DP's have vastly more speed, armour, etc, while the lions have their own advantages...

You've had pretty good experience with both types of units, so I was wondering if you disagree with this rather broad generalisation about the effectiveness of cavalry vs. the equivalent in elite infantry?

Edit: Also... I just remembered you were of the opinion that swordmasters outclassed white lions, and that most lists should use swordmasters as opposed to the Lions... (I'm not sure if you still feel this way) But have you changed your mind since the two stubborn rolls saved it for you...?

_________________
"They thought we had all but died out, but as we take to the skies our foes will tremble with fear, for they will know the True Dragon Princes have returned."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:41 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7805
Location: Queensland, Australia
I saw the MSU SM and smiled but then you omitted them from the battle ^_^'
The White Lion horde went alone, they are huge and all but they could have used some support.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Last edited by Elessehta of Yvresse on Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:27 am
Posts: 27
Good win! :) Nice to see the list works.

To clarify something, did you pursue both the spear orcs/big uns with the DPs? Don't have the BRB handy right now but I believe a unit can only choose to pursue 1 fleeing unit, not both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Very interesting game, a shame that your opponent had to leave so early as there was still everything to play for. Plus I'd have loved to see your Archmage challenge out one of the Black Orc characters :D

Also no marching into or charging out of buildings. Our Great Eagles don't need additional advantages ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:43 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Cython - Driving force for 2 dice was to have 3 for flesh to stone and 4 for regrowth, IIRC. I could've gone for 3 @ throne and 6 @ dwellers though, or 3-2-4 instead of 2-3-4. About elite infantry vs cavalry - it allows me to place a solid unit centre which, ironically, has more flexibility (in that position) since I don't care if I charge or am being charged.The reason I moved away from dual-hammers is exactly this - I cannot seem to use 2 cavarly hammers effectively. As the army stands now, I'll be looking to sweep an entire flank with the cavalry and crush through towards the middle where the Spears and Lions should hold in the meantime. Lions vs Masters - I definitely see the use of Lions. I believe the fact that I haven't gone up against much shooting (have yet to face DE, Empire, Dwarfs @ 2.5k for example) has made my opinion biased. I do believe now however that Lions are the better choice for decent-sized combat blocks, in an all-purpose take all comers army.

@Tiralya - yes I overextended the capabilities of the White Lion horde. I should've backed them up in turn 2 instead of shuffling sideways, this would've allowed me to crush the right flank first, before moving centre from 2 directions at the same time.

@huesofblue - Yes, only the DPs pursued. I thought you simply pursued all fleeing enemies, this is how we've played it for as long as I can remember. I will take another look at the rulebook, but if you can find the section you're thinking of and point it to me I'd be grateful!

@Stormie - there already was a challenge going in that fight between our champions (his issues one in his turn) which both failed to kill eachother. He also knew I had folariaths from the goblin combat, in which he tried to kill Curu Olannon. As for the building, I was standing on top of it (it is basically a tower with a roof). Is this not allowed?

Anyways, I have some fairly interesting and drastic news. Since I've been away from this forum for so long I haven't read up on battle reports, army blogs etc since like May/June. I recently discovered Furion's excellent thread and it REALLY got me thinking tonight. The way he makes every element fit together so perfectly is just so cool and unique. I haven't been able to go to sleep for a couple of hours now, trying to contemplate why he makes it look so easy, even against seriously hard foes! Granted, he is a really good player, but still. I arrived at the following conclusions with such a list, relative to the more offensive builds of jwg, Seredain and myself:

- A defensive army can more easily dictate the flow of battle, since the enemy is forced to move (this was a real pain playing against rusty's Wood Elves, he backed his Treekin just enough to make my cavalry charges unlikely - leaving me in a very hard spot)
- A central fighty Prince is very vulnerable to spells and killing blow (of which there are plenty, which I've experienced myself), among other things
- A defensive army will more often score big wins, since by the time the opponent realizes he's lost, he cannot retreat (an offensive army often doesn't have enough turn to mop up everything if the opponent plays smart)
- A magic-heavy army centred around High Magic can spam spells, maximizing a lvl 4 caster's bonus (as Furion put it - the more dice you spend per cast, the less the caster bonus matters). Additionally, High Magic, combined with strong shooting, has a decent reply to anything.
- An army based on maximum synergy is a lot more fun to play than point-and-click armies and one-trick-ponies

I have yet to decide whether to still make the cavalry prince thing work or if I'll simply switch to this style. I know I've said I wouldn't give up on this idea until I've tried it thoroughly, however I really find Furion's style of play intriguing and would like to try it out at some point. Regardless, I've made a starting point sheet just to see how my version of this army would look like:

High Magic Archmage - level 4, Ring of Fury, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 345
Prince - Bow of the Seafarer, Armour of Caledor, Luckstone, Talisman of Protection, Great Weapon :: 262
Noble - Battle Standard Bearer, Reaver Bow, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon :: 169
Metal Mage - level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (choosing 1, 2) :: 165

26 Archers - standard bearer and musician :: 301
15 Archers - standard bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and musician :: 190
12 Archers - musician :: 137

29 White Lions - full command with Ruby Ring of Ruin and Banner of Sorcery :: 540
1 White Lion Chariot :: 140

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers :: 200
1 Great Eagle :: 50

====
2499

As you see, there are some changes here as opposed to Furion's approach. For one, I don't have Spearelves. I believe that since we do not play with ETC restrictions, there is no point in not taking more shots - the small Spearman unit is basically better as Archers. Also, I chose to include a Lion Chariot - a model I believe can have a great impact in such a list: it can easily protect a flank and its small frontage is perfect for assisting a Lion Horde.

My magic strategy is based on something I experienced in my battle vs Vampire Counts just before the summer. Basically, there are 3 ways to go for a strong magic approach:
1. Take Teclis or BoH - leaving dispel dice useless fairly often
2. Make sure you have enough power dice that something eventually DOES get through
3. Spam many critical spells on low values

Against 1, there is no defence, at least not 100%. That being said, people don't like to play against either of these 2 and they're perma-banned in my local circle. Against 2, a dispel scroll can often ruin your day. Take the normal 9v4 Life magic for example. Let us assume it's crucial to get Dwellers through. Your opponent dispels your 3-dice throne with his 4 and scrolls the Dwellers. There goes your entire magic phase! Alternatively, say you go for a 3-3-3 with Throne-Flesh-Regrowth. He lets Throne through, dispels flesh on 4 and scrolls Regrowth.

Against the last option however, only items like Vortex Shard has any big effect. This is what I experienced during my game against Vampire Counts. You dispel one evil, and 3 more are heading your way. A scroll merely puts a small dent in this strategy, as opposed to the phase-shutting effect it has vs the big-spell-coming-through strategy.

So, let us take a look at my magic setup:
- 2 magic missiles as bound, both with a power level of 3. This allows cheap spamability and can be cast with a lot of dice without fear of miscast
- Curse of Arrow Attraction, Plague of Rust, Enchanted Blades are ALL extremely dangerous to most armies. They can also all be cast with fairly few dice. Also note that Plague has an option of being cast 48" - this means that my metal mage can, if needed, stay fairly far away from the action. Furion remarked that heavily armoured enemies is a problem for this list - Plague of Rust really shines here with its 7+ casting value, stackability and spamability.
- The option of Vaul's Unmaking can hinder any nasty combo coming my way, be it Dreadlord nastiness, Drakenhoff Deathstars or whatever
- Between 2 channels, +5 dispel bonus, annulian crystal AND drain magic, I have a very strong magic defense
- My mages are semi-duplicating each-others roles, so that if I lose one, it's not as big a disaster as with my current list

So - a long post with a lot to contemplate! Looking forward to hearing everyone's opinion on these matters :)

By the way - my next match is on Wednesday @ 2000 points vs 2100 points WoC. I'm contemplating which approach to take - if it's the Furion-inspired list I will remove the Prince, Lion Chariot and some core, deducting White Lions if that's not enough.

Regards,
Olannon

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
I haven't read the posts you're refering to, but I agree in the main. A
defensive army have advantages, as long as you have sufficient
incentive to drag the enemy forward, and you have close combat troops
to beat him when he gets there.

I saw a variant of your HE list do very well at 2D6 Conquest. He also
used High Magic (for Curse of Arrow attraction), 3 RBTs, 2 eagles, a
cavalry unit, sword masters with banner of sorcery and a horde of
archers with flaming banner. I think you will need two eagles if
playing defensive. Also, a big unit of WL are not as useful. Why?
Because their resilience vs shooting is wasted. An opponent has plenty
of other soft targets, while in your offensive army there's no real
targets for light shooting.

What I've found while playing defensively is that you're vulnerable to
armies that can outrange og outrun you. Daemons or Brets can simply
steamroller you with multiple fast, shooting resistant units. Dwarfs
and a few others with artillery can sit on their baseline, outside 30" and force you forward.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:45 pm 
Offline
Rhetor militaris
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 451
This looks like a very drastic change from your normal list Curu; are you sure this is what you want? I too have tested Furion's lists (both with ETC restrictions and without) and find, while they can be very effective (when playing comped games), are often quite boring (and risky in un-comped games) to play which, for casual play, somewhat defeats the purpose. Remember, this list is meant only for comped play and if you go up against other lists which aren't comped, you'll most probably lose to powerhouse combos. That being said, many of the points you picked out from Furion's tactics are still applicable in normal games and might give your list, or one like it, enough playing power not only to satisfy but also to ensure you have enjoyable games.

You started out with a list that ran with duel cavalry hammers which is often really enjoyable to play with, assuming you can get it to work for you. Why don't you take some of Furion's ideas and incorporate them into that kind of list? Personally, I love running duel Cavalry Hammers and have found a way to make it work for me but after reading Furion's tactics, I made small adjustments which made the list overall perform better (without scrapping the list).

The problem I've found with running Cavalry Hammers is that they don't work well unsupported, even if you put characters in them - you have to combine them with either Elites or large units of Core to make them succeed. To that end, I found the Prince was not worth his points and instead, I now take more special troops instead. I've also personally found Furion's Prince to be overpriced for what he actually does: he's essentially a bolt thrower that hits on 2+ and a LD bubble, which you can get by adding Banner of Discipline (yes he fights as well, but if you play the list correctly, most of the time you won't have to worry about him going up against much). I'd suggest dropping him and adding back some of your cavalry units, rather than see you overhaul your whole list.

Consider something like this:

High Elves - 2500 Points

[HEROES]: 564, 22.56%
Archmage, Level Four, High Magic, Silver Wand - 270 (Goes in 13 Archers)
Noble, BSB, Heavy Armor, Great Weapon, Shield, Reaver Bow - 164 (Goes in 13 Archers)
Level 1 Mage with Seerstaff with Shadow/Metal (Withering/Enchanted Blades) - 130 (Goes in 21 Elites)

[CORE]: 633, 25.32%
24 Archers, Musician, Banner - 279
16 Archers, Musician - 181
13 Archers, Musician, Banner, Banner of Discipline - 173

[SPECIAL]: 1154, 46.16%
21 White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Sorcery - 383
21 Phoenix Guard / Swordmasters / White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 343
(^ This could also be broken up into a unit of 14 Swordmasters and another unit of 7, or adding on more Dragon Princes / Silver Helms)
8 Silver Helms, Banner, Musician, Shields - 208
7 Dragon Princes, Musician - 220

[RARE]: 150, 6%
Bolt Thrower - 100
Great Eagle - 50

TOTAL: 2499

This gives you a very solid base more in line with what you've played in the past. The variability in composition comes from the Reaver Bow and then second unit of Elites: if you want more magic (either offense or defense, like Furion's list), take the second unit as 14 Swordmasters and use the points saved to buy: a) another mage with the Annulian Crystal / Ring of Fury b) More cavalry (4 more Silver Helms still gives you points to play with, or add two/three knights to each unit) or c) beef up your BOS unit back up to 28. As it stands now, you have ways to deal with Regenerating units (not to mention Withering + Arrow Attraction + Arrow spam for Hydras and Aboms) as well as Ethereals (Reaver Bow + Enchanted Blades + Archmage) but you can fiddle with this based on how often you fight each.

If you're absolutely set on the Cavalry "Prince," you could use these points and drop the Level 1 Mage to get him back. However, I'd strongly recommend against this as in all my testing, he's never been worth it compared to the mage + troops. Another option however would be taking the 14 Swordmasters, fiddling some points, and taking a Noble on horse with mundane kit, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Luckstone, and Potion of Foolhardiness. Nowhere near as survivable, but cheap and still killy enough that he'll tip the tide of battle where needed. Also, this gives you a bit of an out theme wise: Nobles are still "Princes" in High Elf society.

As for range firepower, this list has much of the great synergy of Furion's list: Withering (I'd recommend this over Aibon) + Arrow Attraction + Flames of the Phoenix makes your magic and shooting phases a nightmare for the enemy. But now, unlike Furion's list, not only do you have serious combat potential but you've spread around your threats very nicely. An opponent will have a heck of a time dealing with two units of cavalry, two units of elites, and an archer base of fifty models and, because of this, you'll be much more safe from spell combos eating your army in a turn (like Dark Elves, Book of Hoeth Lists, etc. which are normally restricted by ETC rules and are why Furion can get away with his four unit army).

Furthermore, this allows you to go back to what you're familiar with without having to learn a whole new set of tactics. You can play your hammer/anvil strat and use the Archers and White Lions as your Anvil with the second unit of elites and all of your cavalry acting as the Hammers of the list, giving you three very powerful units which are sure to break the enemy. Just keep your Archer bunker behind your lines with your BSB and mage in it (who won't need LOS for most of the High Magic Spells) and you'll be sure to hold. Against spamming gun lines (again, something comped under ETC rules), you now have a very strong army that can bring the fight to the enemy while also shooting down multiple warmachines each turn.

All of this is food for thought. Hopefully, even if you don't take the advice from the list, it has at least gotten you thinking about rekindling the cavalry hammers: it would be a shame if you ended up removing them, especially if you enjoy them.

Hope that helps!

Axiem


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:01 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Axiem, with no mounted character to join them, why field a 200 points unit of Silver Helms? Replace them with 6 Dragon Princes and you come out ahead 99% of the time, and save a couple points.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:27 pm 
Offline
Rhetor militaris
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 451
Quote:
Axiem, with no mounted character to join them, why field a 200 points unit of Silver Helms? Replace them with 6 Dragon Princes and you come out ahead 99% of the time, and save a couple points.


More bodies do help a lot of the time. Especially if you're having to tie up a big beastie or going up against monstrous infantry; the banner serves the same purpose. Charging, even if you don't do any wounds, with the banner, against a monster that relies mostly on Thunderstomp for damage (i.e. lower WS monsters, which most are) is a good way to ensure your target isn't going anywhere for a while and even gives you a good chance at winning. The other problem with only taking six dragon princes is if you loose only 2 Knights, you're no longer breaking steadfast of even the most depleted units (such as hordes with >15 models left in them) which, using hammer/anvil tactics, is often the role of Cavalry (chasing down those final points which your opponent is keeping out of combat).

The other argument for it is against very shooty lists, such as Dark Elves, the enemy has the same chance of taking down Silver Helms or Dragon Princes and then more bodies really help as loosing three Dragon Princes cripples a unit to the point where it can realistically only clear chaff after that point. I've also suggested it this way as, if Curu decides to, he can put more points into them beefing them up to as many as twelve, and making these two points all the more relevant.

Some people do as you suggest, and there is merit in it certainly, but I personally find a blend makes the army much more flexible and helps win me more games.

Hope that helps!

Axiem


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:57 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@rusty - the relevant thread can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35977 It is well worth the read! The thing with fast armies is that I have more stopping power than you do as Wood Elves in the shape of Reaver Bow, Repeaters and the Bow of the Seafarer, not to mention magic missiles (of which I have 3) and other magic support. As for White Lions as my Elite Infantry unit of choice, the reasoning can be found further up. In Horde formation in particular they have a big advantage when it comes to damage output compared to a single rank comparison.

@Axiem - thanks for a very detailed and well thought out post! To be honest, I don't know if the idea of the list cannot work in competitive play. I see your point indeed about other armies being real hard to deal with. As for dual cavalry hammers, I will not be trying that out any longer. Perhaps 2 units of cavalry, but not dedicating points to make them formidable combat units on their own.

The list you proposed is very interesting, and I can see the appeal of having 2 elite infantry combat blocks in addition to 2 supporting cavalry units. Dropping the Prince and a Repeater is not where I want to start though. Nevertheless, I will keep your suggestions in mind. Your point about Shadow vs Metal for me boils down to casting value. The Metal spells are way easier to cast and as such makes my magic phase more versatile.

The list may very well be altered over the course of a few games. First of all I just have to get a feel of how the army plays.

So I have a game tonight in my Mighty Empires campaign (the last one was just a practice game, I mixed up when I wrote that post) and I am going to run a version of this list. Basically, I'll drop the Prince, White Lion Chariot and some Archers to get it down to 2k. I'm facing a WoC opponent who is likely bringing either a chosen deathstar or mass marauders, backed up by Tzeentch disc wizards and hellcannon(s). Did I mention he has 100 points more than me? It's gonna be a tough fight, but I'm looking forward to trying the high magic + metal magic setup. The army, in detail, will be as follows:

High Magic Archmage - level 4, Ring of Fury, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 345
Noble - Battle Standard Bearer, Reaver Bow, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon :: 169
Metal Mage - level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (choosing 1, 2) :: 165

26 Archers - standard bearer and musician :: 301
17 Archers - standard bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and musician :: 212

30 White Lions - full command with Ruby Ring of Ruin and Banner of Sorcery :: 555

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers :: 200
1 Great Eagle :: 50

====
1997

Hopefully I'll have time to write up the BR tonight ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:31 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Axiem wrote:
The other argument for it is against very shooty lists, such as Dark Elves, the enemy has the same chance of taking down Silver Helms or Dragon Princes and then more bodies really help as loosing three Dragon Princes cripples a unit to the point where it can realistically only clear chaff after that point.
Silver Helms can only clear chaff to start with! :)
Seriously, 8 Silver Helms vs 6 Dragon Princes. The DPs have more attacks at higher Ws and initiative, and better leadership. After 3 casualties, it is 5 vs 3. The Dragon Princes still have more attacks and in a smaller frontage, so fewer enemy attacks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:36 pm 
Offline
Rhetor militaris
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 451
Quote:
As for dual cavalry hammers, I will not be trying that out any longer. Perhaps 2 units of cavalry, but not dedicating points to make them formidable combat units on their own.


This is what I meant, sorry for the confusion: two units of Cavalry which can act as hammers for the list, although not putting characters in them enough that they can go toe-to-toe without support from elites. I was merely referencing how you started your army and trying to keep within similar themes.

Quote:
Your point about Shadow vs Metal for me boils down to casting value. The Metal spells are way easier to cast and as such makes my magic phase more versatile.


Fair enough, but personally, I'd rather just have Withering than both Plague of Rust and Blades if I'm playing a shooting list. Against troops it's a toss up as to which is better but against Monsters and Monstrous Infantry (who have low armor to begin with) Withering is much better. Also, Enchanted Blades and Arrow Attraction have a similar function and don't combine very well. But give it a try and let us know how it works!

Best of luck Curu!

Axiem


In response to Dabber,

Quote:
Silver Helms can only clear chaff to start with!
Seriously, 8 Silver Helms vs 6 Dragon Princes. The DPs have more attacks at higher Ws and initiative, and better leadership. After 3 casualties, it is 5 vs 3. The Dragon Princes still have more attacks and in a smaller frontage, so fewer enemy attacks.


I disagree (also remember is 6 Dragon Princes versus 8 with a Banner: if it was otherwise I'd agree with you). As I posted originally, medium sized units of Silver Helms work better at clearing depleted infantry blocks because they ensure breaking of Steadfast: I'd much rather win the combat by two and break steadfast than win by four and not. Also, taking your example after three casualties, if both units hits a depleted unit on the side (as they should be anyway) the Silver Helms come out miles ahead as they will win the combat, and break Steadfast, without taking casualties in return (obviously, this doesn't work against powerful elites, but remember that's not their role anyway).

Furthermore, while more attacks are always nice, over the course of the game, six Dragon Princes are almost always sure to be ground down and give away their points, because of how scary they are to opponents, while Silver Helms often skirt under the radar as the units of elites take priority. This helps to redeem them, in my eyes, and makes the choice between Silver Helms and Dragon Princes not nearly as easy as most people believe.

Axiem


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Your archers didn't participate--I think you should have been walking them forward while firing in order to participate/guard flanks/help clean up in later rounds of close combat.

_________________
my MSU army list/battle reports

Nyeave wrote:
Omg it's a parrot chariot - a parriot... :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:40 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Axiem - point taken about the cavalry units. Will give it some thought! Regarding metal vs shadow, it's a really tough choice. The game-lasting effect coupled with the extremely low casting value of Plague of Rust is just so lucrative. As Furion pointed out, this list has an issue with armoured opponents. Remember that Blades also has a tremendous effect on close combat. With Shadow though, I can seerstaff withering and mindrazor - effectively making any and all of my units a potential beast in close combat. These spells do not however synergize too well with my shooting + remaining magical assault: the withering is very expensive to cast (essentially 4 dice with my level 2 if I even wanna try it) and I'm still out of options against fast, heavily armoured opponents. You do indeed have a very good point though, so I will give it some serious thought and perhaps playtesting.

@Nicene - the point you're making is exactly one of the reasons why I believe more in magic-heavy, shooty-oriented synergy list. I find it hard to use Archers properly, with them being rather weak and expensive. I don't even know if it would've been worth it in that fight. The point is, in this kind of list they're transformed into a core of the army instead of some must-have just in case your opponent brings fanatics etc.

I just finished my Mighty Empires campaign game. I tried out the new magic-heavy synergy concept. Want to know how it worked out? Read on!

:: The Darkened Sky ::

His list:
Disc Lord, 3+ ward, infernal puppet
18 Khorne Warriors, halberd & shields
18 Khorne Warriors, halberd & shields
5 Chosen w/BSB
2 Hellcannons
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

Magic:

He gets 1,2,3,4 from Tzeentch lore, I get 1,2,3,6 from High. Missing out on both flames and fury had me worried as my magical onslaught would be somewhat lacking since courage is next to useless with my White Lions as the only combat unit.

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

All his rock hard combat units scared me at first. Also, I knew his Hellcannons could be really devastating. I knew I wouldn't have my normal deployment advantage, so I went with the obvious first - Archers in building and on the hill. This left my centre for my RBTs, giving them really good fire lanes, and the WLs could go either centre or left flank, depending on his deployment. I ended up parking them on my left, forcing him to split his advance.

Image

He goes first, with a 6 vs a 3. Chosen gets 3+ ward after a million re-rolls.

:: Chaos Turn 1 ::

Everything walks up, his advance forced to split. One Hellcannon rampages but no ill effect to his units. His wizard lord flies behind a building, out of LoS from my army.

Magic is 8v8. He gets pandaemonium through on my Lions and kill a handful with a Hellcannon. I pass the panic test, and his turn is over.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Very little movement on my part, though the Eagle moves up and Archers out of the building in which they deployed.

Magic is 12v5 and I start with a 2-die pandaemonium dispel. I then proceed to land Plague of Rust on his lone warriors and give the smaller archer unit enchanted blades. I finish off with an IF Vaul's unmaking on his Lord, removing puppet. The ensuing miscast takes a wound off of both of my mages.

Shooting kills a handful of warriors from his rusted unit, which is revealed to have a 5+ ward save from shooting due to a banner.

Image

:: Chaos Turn 2 ::

The Chaos forces continue their advance towards my lines, his hounds taking up some annoying positions.

Magic is 5v5 and he again gets pandaemonium through. Both Hellcannons miss.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I'm forced to deal with the Hounds now or they'll be more of a threat next turn, seeing as my mage is down to 1W and the others can mess with my LoS, cover etc.

Again, movement is almost non-existant. Magic is 12v6. The result is that curse goes through on his chosen, along with Plague of Rust. Vaul's unmaking removes his ward save vs shooting and I finish off revealing the ring of fury which promptly kills his hounds. Ring of Fire targets his Chosen but to no effect.

Shooting - the smaller archer unit let loose upon the hounds, easily killing them. The rest of the army combine to put a staggering 13 wounds on his Chosen -- only to see it all saved by his annoying 3+ ward (some amazing rolls here on his part).

Image

:: Chaos Turn 3 ::

Again, a cannon fails its rampage test. Still, no ill effect though. The rest move up fairly fast.

Magic is 4v4 but he gets both pandaemonium AND treason through my defences, due to his +5 to cast. This sees me White Lions take quite a few casualties (I really hate that spell). They are now down to 14 strong. Imagine what a couple more Hellcannon hits would have done...

The remaining cannon kills a single Lion with a short scattered shot.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

It's a crucial turn for me, and I know it. Carefully measuring the distance, I'm glad to find that a slight withdrawal makes a charge improbable in his next turn. I free reform the Lions and withdraw them a bit.

Magic again gives me 12 dice vs his 6. The result is somewhat disappointing though, with only Saphery and Plague getting through (I rolled 1,1,2 for curse and 1,2,2 for enchanted blades - granting him easy dispels. My last dice was attempted at ring of fury but came up a '1').

Still, my shooting goes to town and reduces his lone warriors by 7 men. With their -2AS I no longer fear them as they're but a handful with a very poor armour save. Between stand and shoot and 18 Archers getting ASF + steadfast, I'm confident that this threat is effectively gone. The Chosen also take a couple of casualties for a change - the Reaver Bow BSB being responsible for both of them after he again makes a big amount of 3+ saves from the other 26 Archers.

Image

:: Chaos Turn 4 ::

His Warriors make a last effort to charge my Archers, but roll poorly. The Stand and Shoot kills one of them. The other attacking units close with my Lions, but do not declare charges as it's improbable.

Magic sees me getting an amazing 5v8 (!!) phase, after I channel successfully with both mages. I'm finally able to dispel everything, saving me having to spend 2 dice on dispelling pandaemonium all the time (which I did religiously throughout the game as my first action).

His cannons both miss the White Lions. It's a fairly compact unit now, and with even mediocre scatters the shots are off.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

I contemplate eagle-blocking his Warriors and charging his Chosen. I decide against it, and let the Eagle stay in the middle, ready for any last-minute action if necessary, should my White Lions fluff it. I instead charge the Warriors, figuring 13 Lions should be able to deal with them rather well, although they are 18 strong with a A3-S5 base: both saphery and enchanted blades can help me out here.

Magic is again strong, with 12v6 dice. Being very afraid of enchanted blades, he lets everything else through. What is everything? Curse, fury, plague on chosen + saphery on Lions. He naturally dispels the blades but I'm happy with Saphery being up. The Chosen and his lone Warriors are now both at -2 armour save permanently.

My big shooty-unit with the help of an RBT sends all his Chosen with the BSB to whereever they came from, many thanks to Curse of Arrow Attraction. This allows my other unit and the last RBT to focus on the few remaining Warriors on the other flank, reducing them to a single man.

In close combat, my Lions kill 8 Warriors, losing 4 in return. He fails his break test and is run down. At this point he concedes the game but we agree to play on as we just wanna see how it plays out - after all it's not often High Elves are able to score a wipeout!

Image

:: Chaos Turn 5 ::

Both Hellcannons charge my Lions, his last Warrior charges my Archers (but is killed due to stand and shoot). His Wizard Lord tries a desperate flanking manoevre.

Magic is stopped. In close combat I kill one Hellcannon and wound the other. In return, only 4 Lions are left standing.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I have no charges to declare, so free reform the big Archers to face his Lord. A Vaul's later ensures he's out of his pesky 3+ ward save, and the unit promptly puts enough arrows in him to make him fail his 1+ armour save (the Reaver Noble really helped out here as well). This was cast with IF though, and the feedback kills my metal mage, leaving the Archmage on 1W.

In close combat I leave the Hellcannon on 2W but lose the last Lions.

Image

In the last turn of the game his Hellcannon rampages but can't reach anything. With only 2W left and my entire army looking at him, you can guess what the outcome was...

:: Victory Points ::

We didn't bother calculating: I had a wipeout and lost ~550 + 150 points myself. A clear massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

I was really lucky with the winds of magic this game, but to be honest it matters little. With 6 dispel dice (which he usually had) he's able to stop 2 spells, in general (giving my casting strategy). If it had been 10 v 4 instead, it mostly would've been better for me (as he's usually forced to commit 3 dice to safely dispel, this leaves him in an awkward position). The slow trickle of dangerous spells really paid off. He was usually able to stop THE most crucial thing going through, but the sum of all the other ones proved too much. The effect of Plague towards the end was just insane - his Warriors would've been left with a 6+ save in combat -- something even Archers can make short work of.

The metal mage worked out spectacularly. The combination of Enchanted Blades and Rust allows me to potentially reduce a unit's armour save by 2 (relative) in a single turn with a mere 5 dice! The Archmage was unlucky with spell selection, and this hurt me a bit. I would've really wanted to cast Flames on him to boost my magical defense. I never once cast curse nor drain. Still, between the two of them I always had a plethora of threats. His look when I revealed the ring of fury as well was priceless!

Had the White Lions received more of a beating, I could've been in trouble. This has really made me think about dropping the Lion chariot at 2500 points and rather going for 2 decent-sized blocks rather than one Horde. Also, I found the fireball-ring to be overkill - this game I didn't get fury of khaine and still found no use for it (I did cast it once though).

The crystal was indeed an amazing item and allowed me to control his magic rather well throughout the game: I only once failed to dispel Treason.

Lots of this army: items, units, spells, is really new to me. I must say that I absolutely like the way it plays though, but it probably needs some tweaking first. If I remember correctly, the next game I have is on Sunday, 2500 points vs rusty. Could be interesting, indeed!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:02 pm 
Offline
Rhetor militaris
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 451
Congratulations and very well done! Would make Furion proud!

That being said, and as you hinted at, you go very lucky against his Hellcannons (he got only two minor hits over the course of the game?) but that besides, you were able to absolutely crush him!

Glad to see that your Plague of Rust + Enchanted Blades combination worked so well! Especially against WoC I could see that being quite good and can imagine him sweating through your magic phases because of it.

The main question from is did you miss having your Prince and would this battle impact you taking him in the future?

Axiem


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:44 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Axiem wrote:
Congratulations and very well done! Would make Furion proud!

That being said, and as you hinted at, you go very lucky against his Hellcannons (he got only two minor hits over the course of the game?) but that besides, you were able to absolutely crush him!

Glad to see that your Plague of Rust + Enchanted Blades combination worked so well! Especially against WoC I could see that being quite good and can imagine him sweating through your magic phases because of it.

The main question from is did you miss having your Prince and would this battle impact you taking him in the future?

Axiem


As for Furion, I'm sure he could've commented on a number of things regarding both my unit choices, deployment and movement. I basically just sat still all game like a Dwarf army and blasted him to bits. At the moment, I'm trying to read through Furion's thread and observe how he makes this army act more dynamically. I play Tau in 40k so the aspect of mobile firepower and synergy is something I know real well. I just have to figure out how to do it in the more strategically complex fantasy game also ;)

His Hellcannons landed 1 direct hit and 1 partial hit. Huge blunder on my part: deploying the Lions 3x10. I should, could and would have made them 1x30 had I used my head properly. Regardless, stone throwers scatter a lot, with shield up I save ~50% (5+/5+), he can rampage and he never once rolled a misfire. After all, war machines aren't that expensive - even with beastly stats. Being able to obliterate a ~500 point unit shouldn't be that easy, at least not when that's one of our units that are more resilient to shooting.

As for the metal combo - it is of course very, very strong against WoC. That being said, I can also see it work wonders against DE (making 4+/5+ worse against Archers REALLY is deadly), HE etc. I will revisit this in an upcoming post which I've been thinking about. The only real problem I have with shadow is the high casting value. If I somehow could've managed to get it the withering castable on 3D6, it would've been a totally different story. An idea to play around with is to simply take 2 Archmages... An Archmage can cast the withering on 3D6 with a 74% chance of success. Additionally, I won't have to take the Seerstaff due to proper spell selection but can for example go for Jewel of the Dusk instead. Remember, this would've been illegal by ETC standards.

As for the Prince... It's really hard to say. When my Lions were looking at a potentially crucial turn and got through unscathed (his Turn 4) I would've felt a LOT safer with a Prince in the Archer unit - this would've made it a formidable combat unit able to hold its own. With a S6 rank-piercing Stand and Shoot as well as 4S6 ASF attacks and a 2+ armour save, he can really bring on the hurt. That being said, I can get a decent sized elite infantry unit for his cost. This is, in many ways, a tough call to make. I'm going to have to think on it, and it's also a point I'll revisit later on.

To give you an idea of what I'm currently contemplating, I want you to take a look at my games thus far and matchups in general.
- What armies do I play well against?
- What armies are a problem for this list?
- How can I make life easier for the Vindicators by tweaking characters, magic lores and unit choices?

Thanks for good input Axiem, you really started some thinking here, which is why we're all playing this game in the first place ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Wow, really good victory and great report. Do you know why he bothers with the tiny Chosen unit? Eve though they helped by acting like a sponge for your missile fire, I can't see their point- much less the point of putting the BSB in there.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:15 am 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
I agree about the baby chosen unit, especially with the BSB there. Better to drop the dogs for 3 more chosen, and even to shift a couple warriors over. And I see absolutely no reason to put the BSB with them.

I kinda feel he mis-used his Lord as well. Without Gateway, he isn't *that* big a threat, and your shooting isn't going to hurt him if he keeps to the side. And you have to unmake his ward before your shooting can hurt him. He should have tried to charge your RBTs (from the right flank) or even your baby Mage in archers. He only casts treason and pandemonium, and he can cast those from close combat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:51 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Stormie - the baby Chosen unit was mostly due to a lack of models. I too am curious as to why he didn't beef it up somewhat. With that being said, they sucked up amazing amounts of firepower and magical barrage. I'm not sure how a close combat would've been either. The BSB should totally have been in another unit though.

@dabber - he could've chosen gateway but opted for Treason. He rolled rather poorly. I believe Treason is more of a threat to be honest, as it's more consistent. As for using the Lord more offensively, I'm not too sure. Once he's locked down it's easier for me to react to him, and with all my magical support targeting him he would've gone down relatively fast.

I want to elaborate a little bit about my choice of a metal mage, as well as evaluate a potential shadow mage instead.

:: The Alchemist ::

What made me think about the lore of Metal? To be honest: nothing. I simply started thoroughly reading through the lores in the rulebook, with a couple of thoughts in mind:
- I want 2 spells that synergize well with High Magic and shooting
- I want the spells to be cheap to cast, as to further emphasize the constant barrage of small spells, reducing the impact of the inevitable dispel scroll

Basically, I found Metal extremely attractive in this perspective. Plague of Rust can be cast so cheaply, which means a lvl 2 can reliable use but 2 dice. What's more is that it affects a unit for all my units, throughout the entire game. While it may seem innocent at first, its game-long result and stackability quickly adds up to be dangerous. Enchanted Blades of Aiban on the other hand, only affects a single unit. Since I'm practically forced to split up my units, this is a downside. On the other hand, this is still a relatively cheap spell, requiring 3 dice to cast reliably with a level 2. It also helps out in close combat situations, as well as reducing armour saves. If this spell goes off on an archer unit about to be charged - it helps them 3 times over: once as they shoot in the ensuing shooting phase, once as they stand and shoot, and once when they ASF in close combat.

As far as I could tell, no other Lore provided anything like this. The closest I could come was Lore of Fire with Flaming Sword of Rhuin. This is, in many ways, a comparably good spell. The downside is that I have no secondary spell which is decent and I don't really need the flaming effect, seeing as I already have a unit with the banner of eternal flame.

:: The Illusionist ::

One of the options to going for Lore of Metal is to pick the Lore of Shadow. This changes the level 2's role dramatically as he's transformed from a barrage-caster (multiple low-dice spells) to a big-spell caster (few many-dice spells). Primarily with this Lore you'd have your Mage pick The Withering and either Miasma or Mindrazor. Miasma actually does fit in with the low-dice barrage magic, as it is fairly dangerous given the time it slows an opponent down, but The Withering is not.

The Withering is the number one reason to pick Shadow. It affects all your shooting units, essentially, and can bring tough ones like Sphinx, Abominations and Hydras down to a bearable level of toughness, not to mention that normal troops will be rendered extremely vulnerable. The big downside with Withering is its cast value. With a level 2, you have to spend 4 dice to reliably cast it. Note that "reliably" here is ~84%, whereas with the metal spells it's >90%. Yet another problem with Withering is its range. At 18" you're often going to find yourself too close for comfort. Naturally, the spell has a boosted value - but this requires you to spend 5 dice with your level 2. One thing which does however mitigate the poor range, is the Lore attribute of Shadow: I can place the mage fairly offensively and swap him out with a fightier character after having cast Withering.

The problem with this is that dispel scrolls, by far the most common defense, is so much more effective with these big-dice spells. Miscasts are also way more common. This is a big problem for me, as I don't need IF with all these small spells and the miscast results can be horrible. Additionally, I can have my entire magic phase shut down by a single dispel scroll. Imagine it's 9v4, a fairly typical magic phase. I cast Withering with 5 dice and it's scrolled. This leaves 4v4 dice - a situation in which it's perfectly normal not to get any spells through (though, most of the time, you will get one through). The question is - how critical is this for me as opposed to what benefits I get from The Withering? Is the -D3T that much better than Plague and Enchanted Blades? I know for sure that having Okkam's Mindrazor as a backup for close combat is a huge bonus. This spell will usually be cast with 6 dice anyways, in which case it matters little whether it's a level 2 or a level 4 casting it.

Consider the armies I believe are our worst opponents:
Daemons, Skaven, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts

I believe that apart from these armies, most of our encounters can be dealt with and any difference between Metal and Shadow can be overcome by strategy and proper use of units. For me then, the question boils down to:
- Against our hardest matchups, is Lore of Metal or Lore of Shadow the best Lore, and why?

I have no clear answer yet. I have a lot of thoughts, but I'd like to hear what you all think. All I can say is that yesterday, Metal worked out very well for me and fit in exactly as I had intended it to. The constant barrage of small spells is so hard to deal with. Usually, with small spells a level 4 has a big advantage. With 2-dice spells though, I find it doesn't matter too much: an opponent is usually committed to spending an equal or greater amount of dice - regardless of dispel bonus - to reliably dispel. This is huge for you, as it improves the ratio for the rest of the phase. Example: it's crucial for your opponent to stop rust. He has a +6 modifier (don't ask me why). It's 9v4 dice and you cast Rust with 2D6, scoring 8. With your bonus +2, that's a value of 10. Trying to dispel this with 1D6 is suicide. If it's crucial to stop, you need 2D6 - leaving the rest of the phase 7v2 - a HUGE advantage for you.

So, to summarize:
Metal - good, cheap, stackable, spammable, versatile. No game-breaking spells, little miscast chance, low vulnerability to dispel scroll
Shadow - strong, powerful, game-breaking spells. Requires a lot of dice, fairly vulnerable to both miscasts and dispel scrolls.

So - what do you all think? Of course I'm open to other ideas as well - if there's a strong argument for it ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:07 pm 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7805
Location: Queensland, Australia
Hard to choose, I recommend a coin toss, or a dice roll, whatever kids do these days ^_^

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:02 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
Consider the armies I believe are our worst opponents:
Daemons, Skaven, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts
That list does not really fit with your love of Plague of Rust. Rust does nothing to Daemons, very little to Skaven, and not much to VC. It only really hurts a couple DE things (cavalry and characters).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:44 pm
Posts: 183
Plague of Rust, especially stacked over multiple castings, can be fun.

However, I find its use limited in the actual context of the game.

1 - No effect on enemies w/o AS.
2 - No help with wounds that wouldn't allow AS anyhow
3 - Requires subsequent action to have any effect
4 - Most common application applies last in a diminishing returns formula (A bonus to hit will net you more wounds inflicted than reducing AS by the same amount, because you have to hit first)
5 - Stacking requires multiple castings, normally across multiple game turns. In a 6 turn game, it will take you 1/3 of the whole game to stack it up to -2.


For me, I like Metal for Glittering Robe and Blades. Having your WL's have AS 3+ (AS 1+ against Shooting) is really nice, and combining that with Shield for a 5+ ward can be pretty brutal. Blades gives you a bonus to hit (acting on first step means more reliable achievement of performance to potential ratio) and AP, plus magical attacks. Nice little package.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group