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 Post subject: Caledorian Drake Riders
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:31 am 
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Hello all,

I would like to have some opinions on a unit I've been thinking about for my 8th edition High Elf list. I would especially like some feedback on points cost (since I've got no idea how to cost this fairly) and some glaring oversights I might have made that could come up during play. The idea was to keep it simple, they are supposed to be monstrous cav, but bigger than the pegasus knights so supposedly they should go on the chariot bases we see more often for units now (TK, OK). Not to much fancy rules except for the standard package for monstrous cav.

I came up with these guys because I think the trend of the latest armybooks is to include some big units, preferably with howdah in the new books. Since I can't think of any fluffy idea to get this into the high elf list I think the drake riders are the only alternative we have for some big gribblies in the list.

Additional question would be what this beasty is going to cost as a mount for Prince or Noble...

Caledorian Drake Riders

Points/Model: 110

________M__WS_BS___S___T__W___I___A___LD
Rider____5___5___4___3___3___1___6___2___9
Drake___6___4___0___5___5___3___3___3___7

Unit size:
2+

Equipment:
-Hand Weapon
-Lance
-Dragon Armour
-Shield

Special Rules (Riders):
-Valour of Ages
-Speed of Asuryan
-Dragon Armour

Special Rules (Drake):
- Cause Fear
- Skirmish
- Fly
- Swiftstride
- Scaly skin (count as barded for the rider)
- Stomp


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:35 am 
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For starters command options would be nice. :) The same as the Dragon Princes would be a way to go...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Location: Rebuilding Tor Elasor
I was actually thinking about something along these lines myself. But I chose to take 1 sun dragon with a Drake Master (Champion from the Dragon Princes) as a rare monster choice. A bit like the new monsters the ogres got, this way the unit live an die as one.

Points/Model: 200, Troop Type: Monster, Rare unit
______________M__WS_BS__S__T__W__I__A__LD
Sun Dragon____ 6__ 5__0___5___6__5__4__4__7
Drake Master___-___5__4___3___-__-__6__3__9

Dragon:Fly, Terror, Dragon Breath (Breath Weapon S2),Large Target, Thunder Stomp.
Drake Master:Valour of Ages, Speed of Asuryan, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, Hand Weapon.
And the Scaly skin, shield and dragon armour adds up to a 3+ armour/scaly skin save.


The 2 extra IoB griffons I had lying around also inspired me to design a Griffon Rider monster which follows the same basic principles, just with a Griffon and Silver Helm Champion.

Points/model:180, Troop Type:Monster, Rare unit
___________M__WS__BS__S__T__w__I__A__LD
Griffon______6__5____0___5__5__4__5__4__7
High Helm___-___4___4___3___-__-__5__2__8

Griffon:Fly, Terror, Large Target, Thunder Stomp.
High Helm: Valour of ages, Speed of Asuryan, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Hand Weapon.
Shield and Armour adds up to a 3+ save the same as the dragon.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:59 pm 
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Why are they cheaper than the normal ones of their type,..?

:?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Cos the normal ones of their type is seriously overpriced in 8th especially the griffon. I have put the Griffon rider down 20points from the Lord version and the Sun Dragon down 30points. If you feel that is too much please tell, I need to balance these guys since I plan to use them in friendly games.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:46 am 
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Francis wrote:
Cos the normal ones of their type is seriously overpriced in 8th especially the griffon. I have put the Griffon rider down 20points from the Lord version and the Sun Dragon down 30points. If you feel that is too much please tell, I need to balance these guys since I plan to use them in friendly games.


I would say to use the costs in the SoM book, the Griffon is priced fairly to that (even over priced by 5-10pts), but the Dragon is severely under (not that bad, but still by about 50-60 pts.)
I have a good system for working out costs for custom/new units/characters.
Break down the cost/s of the closest relative unit/model, then add the appropriate equipment ect.. at a reasonable price.

So a Drakemaster in this case, normally costing 50pts, take away his horse with barding (-15pts or so) equals 35pts or less.
Then take a Drake (Young Dragon) for 230pts, add them together and you get 265pts, but I'd round it up to 270pts as the model counts as one and gets a better save etc..
I would simply use the basic DP to start with (at 250pts) and add the option to be a Drakemaster for +20pts (like normal).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:52 pm 
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I tend to agree with Asurion in that these are underpriced. I went through the same logic with my version of this.

The other thing is I'm not sure these work well as a unit of flying monsterous cavaly. I think this gives you two options, one - a lot of mythology has drakes as wingless dragons (or dragons not yet old enough to fly) and so you could make them without flying. This also makes them fit directly into monsterous cav without any special considerations. I think this option is less fluffy and less cool, but more solid rulewise then the pegasus type unit. :) Second option is to keep flying make them single normal rider/monster units. This was the route I went and seemed cooler and more in line with the HE material.

Either way I really like the idea of a speciality unit out of Caledor along these lines. Have you played-tested these at all as a unit? If so did they seem okay powerwise?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Are you talking to me or to Ecclesiastes, Knightwire? At any rate no I have not playtested these and I probably won't be able to for a while unfortunately. I am also going to keep them flying since I think a none flying Dragon is boring and the demigryph Forge World made looks horrible and a bit sad really.

The rider will also most likely stay integrated in the model since this makes it easier to deal with in my mind. Whereas separate rider and monster works fine for hero and lord characters I think that the way the ogres designers did it with their integrated monster and rider was pure brilliance. Let's face it, one lone Drake Master/High Helm won't make much of a difference and may in some cases be an annoyance for an opponent that just thought he earned a lot of VPs. This solution keeps it nice and clean.

As for the points cost I think I might have to change it a bit at least for the Sun Dragon since fly is such a great rule to have. So 230 for the Sun Dragon +30 for the Dragon prince -15 for the barded steed (it's 16 for a barded steed for a Noble a Prince pays 24) and +20 for the drake master that's 265p. Add option for him to take 25p of magic items like he is able to in the DP unit perhaps?

The Griffon with the High Helm I think I’ll leave at its current cost if nobody has a very good reason to increase it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Suggestion:

Maybe instead of Fly it could either Hover or have the ability to Leap. Making it run along the ground would be boring, and flying may be too powerful. But give it a Leap option, essentially flying for 8-12" if it's just stuck on the ground otherwise.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Fly is a very good rule, and unless blasted away by cannons (which these units are very vulnerable too) I can see the dragon and griffon rider cause all kinds of havoc. But I think that is fine as long as they are decently priced. Remember that they will die quite easily to almost all kind of warmachines since they have no kind of regen or ward save. Even bolt throwers will be dangerous.

Another aspect is that I think it is a mistake to invent new rules out of the BrB in order to make a unit fit with cost and balance; I would rather keep the fly rule as it is.


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