Ok my dear friends
thank you for your comments! I am going to reply all your queries now.
rdghuizing wrote:You are too character heavy. Generally speaking for HE: unless the charcter fullfills a special role, special troops are always better.
What made you think that any of those characters doesn't fulfill a special role?
My initial assumptions about what makes a good, magic-heavy HE list are:
Items:
- Annulian Crystal
- Dispell Scroll
- Ring of Fury
Spells:
- 4 from Shadow
- A choice of spells from High Magic, ie: Curse of Arrow Attraction, Fury of Khaine, Flames of Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking.
Explanation: Annulian Crystal is a must be. Scroll is optional, I'm still thinking if I really need it that much. Ring of Fury is another must be. It grants me the possibilty to cast 2d6s4 where I really need it with a safe 6 dice bet. Or harass the enemy with 1/2 dice.
About spells: from shadow, I find that Miasma is the core weapon when fighting against armies with 3+ hordes. The Withering is another super-duper good spells, especially with tons of shooting. Pit of Shades and Occam's Mindrazor are optional, and my expierience tells me, that against a specific army I'll be needing Pit of Shades or Occam's Mindrazor.
The current way to resolve those issues is a good fit I think. Silver wand has found its place only becosue it fits nicely with Ring of Fury, plus it's actually useful.
SpellArcher wrote:1) List already has 7 spells, enough for 12 PD. What is the Ring/Wand Mage adding?
It's not the number of spells that makes your magic phase good, it's the possibilty to cast specific spells at specific situations. I'm not casting all of my spells in my Magic Phase, true that, but with vast choice I have the spells I cast are actually more dangerous than in a Magic Phase with limited casting options.
rdghuizing wrote:Drop the prince
SpellArcher wrote:2) Why not swap the Prince for 2 more RBT? The Ld10 could be good but he can't fight combat for long.
@rdghuizing
I'd love to see your justification of that.
@SpellArcher
He is not meant to fight combat for long. My damage output and, lets call it "danger factor" is greatly increased with Bow of Seafarer. His durability against holding s3 hordes is comparable to a prince destined to fight in cc. Both are no match for dragons / greater deamons. Bow isn't the best item in the world, but it's still better than adding excessive armour which doesn't really improve anything.
RBT's are easier to get shot down, are killed in combat, can't block enemy units, they aim worse, they can't enhance my unit fighting capabilities. Plus the LD10.
rdghuizing wrote:Your core looks strange. Drop the small archer unit and turn them into spears for a unit of 35 spears. The main purpose for spears is breaking steadfast, and a unit of 17 just won't accomplish this.
The main purpose of spears in my roster is to have another place where I can hold my mages, occasionaly followed by a flank charge. Or, with BSB or Lord, to block a charge of a wounded abomination / sphinx or similar.
rdghuizing wrote:Archers are good for clearing small stuff like scouts / weapon teams etc. You don't need 40 for this. Also, split the big archer unit in 2, allowing you to target different support units as required.
Now this is a lack of insight, my friend. The more you focus on certain factors, the bigger output will be, aka 2+2=5 thingie. If I invest heavily in magic, which boosts my shooting phase, having a strong shooting phase is a logical consequence.
Stormie wrote:Also I would aim for the flaming banner on the large archer unit, you only have to drop one model after all. Even in open list games like ETC, being able to threaten big nasties like Hellpits or large Troll units is really worth it.
Jaith wrote:Block of Sea Guard with Banner of Eternal Flame. Sea Guard become your key answer to regeneration. if you can set-up for a good flaming volley-fire, your RBT's can finish off anything with regen. In addition, Drakenhoff, and Earthblood will be festering in this enviroment. Sea Guard can annihilate these regen bunkers with Okkam's.
Unfortunately it's not as straightforward as it seems. I was running this list with the flaming attacks on archers / white lions as you are proposing here, but it doesn't work at all. I was totaly owned by fighty characters: nowadays every fighty hero has a Dragonbane Gem / Helm. Banner of Eternal Flame is actually hurting me more than it's hurting my enemies. With -T I kill everything I want regardless of regeneration. I also have Vaul's Unmaking against the Drakehoff Banner.
I won't be sacrificing 4 dice of my magic phase to possibly get a 5pts item down, it's not cost effective at all.
Furion wrote:Personally I would also drop 6 WL for a unit of 21 (3*7), but you might prefer a bigger unit. With the points gained (497 points if my calculations are correct), get 5DP, no command and another elite unit or 2 and/or another great eagle. For instance, 20 PG (leaving you some point for command or a magic item/banner somewhere), 2 units of SM (1 of 7 and 1 of 14, again with a few points left over).
Swordmasters in 8th? I don't agree with that at all, dispite having 21 of them painted
unit of 7 is ok for killing support and damaging monsters (a bit costy exchange though) Now here is my question: what does it bring to my roster? I don't need anything to kill support units. I have some RBT's, some archers, some magic bows. Yes, swordmaster are best at killing support, but I don't need them at all.
Also, a unit of 14 is a 25% loss of investment when you field it, since you make only 1 support attack. I fail to see (or believe?) in the power of Swordmasters, White Lions are better in every aspect.
Dropping the big unit of White Lions from 28 to 21 and changing the formation of this unit to 7*3 is making thsi unit damage output weaker by almost a half. Since it's my only real fighting units (ie. the one that manages to win a fight without augment / hexes) this is not a way to go.
Stormie wrote: I don't know if your Silver Wand/Ring of Fury High Mage really needs the level 2 upgrade, as I imagine most of the time you'll be throwing dice at Ring of Fury anyway. I guess it comes down to whether you think the 35 point upgrade is worth it for being slightly more likely to have Curse/Flames
It's an increase from 72% to 86%. It's not an obvious choice but a viable one.
SpellArcher wrote:3) Why the size 17 Spear unit? Is it a character bunker?
Gwydion wrote:The Prince is another bolt thrower while he has some close combat potential as well. But I would consider dropping him for another bolt thrower and add bodies to the spermen unit. They are perfect for a late game Okkams.
Jaith wrote:If you are going to take 4 levels of Shadow, you need to have spears. Spears and Mindrazor is one of the scariest things in the game.
Primarily, the function of this unit is to act like a mage bunker. About the Mindrazor synergy:
1. If I fight a horde I don't need Mindrazor. They will kill me anyways, and killing 16 slaves instead of 9 doesn't change a thing.
2. If I fight an elite unit, I won't be fighting it at it full model count. This is not a wishful thinking, I have enough magic / shooting to do so. Therefore If I manage to take them down from 25 models (typical starting size of an elite) to 18 models (reasonable assumption) I ruin them with my 18 spears. 35 is an overkill. I wont even do an overrun on them, since when I charge I loose 1 rank worth of attacks, so it's the same damage as 18 spears. In both examples I either win a fight and break them or kill them in the next round.
3. Mindrazor can also be cast on archers. When I charge it's exactly the same number of attacks as spearmen. Durability against s3 attacks is lower, against s4 and higher practically the same.
Gwydion wrote:In the ETC environment some list should be as flexible as possible to deal with nearly every army.
This list is designed for a solo gaming, not for team battles, hence the flexibility.
Jaith wrote:This list needs some work (...) As said before, you are way too character heavy. You need to drop some choices to keep your troop count up so the Prince goes, and the Second mage goes.
This is exactly the kind of discussion I hate: repeating some well-known slogans without justification, assuming they are true in every circumstances and therefore applying them to every list. No hard feelings Jaith, but comments like this bring nothing to the discussion.
Jaith wrote:Magic Items are kinda trivial:
You mean my magic items, or the ones that you propose? Becuose I don't get that phrase.
Jaith wrote:Just make sure you have Folraith's Robes or Talisman of Preservation on your archmage and Annulian Crystal somewhere.
Folraith's Robes? Would be an intresting choice. Not sure how much do I need it though. If you are thinking about increasing the archmage's survivability in combat, then I don't need it for sure. In over 20 games with this list my archmage didn't fight a single time.
Talisman of Preservation is not for me: I'm guessing you suggest it for sake of higher miscast / Lore of Death survivability? Well, For miscast I have 3 wounds anyways so I can sustain 2 of them, and it is unlikely that I'll get 3 miscasts in a game. Besides, I always assume that I fail a 4+ roll
Lore of Death is an issue, but if anything I'd rather go for a Loremaster Cloak then this talisman.
Jaith wrote:White Lions are great usually but don't synergize well with the rest of the army. Their S6 doesn't care about Withering/Okkam's, and isn't valued as much when you have RBT's. I would suggest Phoenix Guards or Swordmasters (still with banner of Sorcery) instead.
This is precisely why White Lions are the only possible fit in this army. I don't have to spend my dice on buffing them, I can bring havoc with my magic somewhere else. And with that great choice of spells I will always find sometimes that suits my needs best.
Jaith wrote:Block of Sea Guard with Banner of Eternal Flame. Sea Guard become your key answer to regeneration. if you can set-up for a good flaming volley-fire, your RBT's can finish off anything with regen. In addition, Drakenhoff, and Earthblood will be festering in this enviroment. Sea Guard can annihilate these regen bunkers with Okkam's.
30" range is crucial when fighting against Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Empire and many more. 5+ save is nothing anyways.
Jaith wrote:Your Reaver Bow BSB will get cut down in combat if you decide on the Greatweapon, I strongly urge you to drop the great weapon, and add a shield and Dragon Helm (be sure you downgrade to heavy armor).
Huh? Exchanging s6 5+ save for s4 3+ save? It doesn't improve anything at all. He is still killed by a 2d6s4, 10 xbows, handguns, 14 archers. No change here. What I get in exchange? A significantly weaker fighter. This is not a good advice at all, regardless of roster.
Jaith wrote:5 Dragon Princes with a Musician are a cheap, expendable, but hard hitting threat that should be taken in every High Elf army, especially a shooty one!
They are worth precisely as much as a RBT and an Eagle. In my opinion it's not worth it. Besides, I don't have point for this goodyness anyways, and even if I had, I would go for RBT+Eagle.
Jaith wrote:[Field this]
Archmage 345
Level 4 (Shadow)
Annulian Crystal
Talisman of Preservation
Mage 170
Level 2 (High)
Silver Wand
Skeinsliver
And be eaten by wraiths and spirit hosts? Sadly, I need this Ring of Fury. Skeinsilver is really nice, especially for a shooty army, no question here. Still, I can play without 1st turn but I can't play without magic missle.
all wrote:get more eagles
My expierience shows me that 1 eagle is suffice or even 4 is not enough. Hunting war machines against a good player is a wishful thinking, redirecting army with 4 hordes cant be done forever with any amount of eagles and the more you commit to redirecting your opponent (via eagles, DP) the weaker your roster is in general: less magic, less shooting, less cc. I find the one eagle to suit me very well, I can understand people who field more since it's a clear, visible gain when you play
but let's say it's just not my cup of tea.
rdghuizing wrote:So, drop the second lvl2 mage and move the chrystal to the archmage (drop the scroll).
This is actually kind of a good idea. Will get back to it later.
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With the following roster I managed to win a 65 man strong tournament 2 weeks ago.
My usual standings are in the top 10% of all contestants.
I was attending ETC last year.
I scored 5th place in WFB Polish League in 2010 (1176 players that season)
This information has been posted not to boast myself, but to discourage rating player's capability to do a good roster by post count
Warm thanks to everyone who took the time to answer in this thread. I'm looking forward to chat some more. If you have any queries, I will respond to them whenever I get the time to do so.
Will do some thinking about a scrollless list in the meantime!
cheers
Furion
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