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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Your turn 5 is written incorrectly. You say you charged DPs and spears into chosen. It looks like you charged spears into Warriors and DPs into dogs, overrunning into the same warriors.

Swordmaster, warshrines stack. You *may* change the warshrine gift each shooting phase, which means picking a new target and rolling again. Or you can let it sit. Killing a warshrine does NOT remove whatever benefit it granted.


Brewmaster_D wrote:
Chaos Sorceror Lord - Chaos Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Dispel Scroll, Necrotic Phylactery, Lore of Shadows
Since you created this, it obviously is not his fault, but his lord is illegal. Both the Phylactery and the Dawnstone are Talismans, making him illegal.

Why would you/he put extra hand weapons on the Chosen? That is the absolute worst equipment for chaos infantry, even against elves. Generally halberds are better in almost every case, or even great weapons on chosen.

Although I can understand it specifically against High Elves, great weapons on the warriors seem like a huge mistake too. It wastes their nice high initiative, when halberds would hit close to as hard and swing first against many opponents.

What gift did the Chosen start the game with?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
First round of combat: ... my swordmasters dice through 11 of the 5+ parry save marauders. They also manage to put two wounds on his sorceror lord, who has a 4+ rerollable versus them. He kills 3 of my guys in return, as he was hitting on 5's from pha's protection.
That is some seriously bloodly rolling. Ignoring the harder to hurt sorceror lord, I get the average as 10 dead Marauders and about 1.5 dead Swordmasters. Then the next round, with fewer Swordmasters, you killed another 9 despite still hitting the sorceror lord!

On his turn 3, he failed to cast. That does not end the magic phase; it merely breaks concentration. He can still use his remaining power dice to dispel Throne, just with no bonus.

How big were the chosen when you charged them? You mention killing 4+6 with Dwellers, meaning 10 alive, but also mention around 14 remain after the second Dwellers.

In the first chosen combat round, you mention only killing 3 chosen. The expected value is under 5. And that is assuming no Toughness or armour buff, but you never mentioned what the other warshrine was doing.
Especially with likely reduced contact frontage by the second round, getting 5 the second round is above average. And obviously their breaking is unlikely.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:56 pm 
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You guys are much too kind! It definitely was an epic battle (you should have heard him yell when those chosen broke), but just remember that opponent's experience level really afforded me a lot of advantages in this battle, namely:

- He got sloppy with dispelling my throne of vines later in the game. This let me cast with impunity and put really hard choice on him in the magic phase.
- Dropping those warriors on the flank really cost him - it was turn 5 before that serious combat unit made it to the main foray.
- Those Chosen breaking really was a stroke of luck - I had taken the BSB, so at least they had no reroll, but they were still stubborn, so definitely not a sure thing.

Quote:
Speaking of this fight. You said you inflicted 8 wounds and lost 12.


My notes were wrong here - he killed 12 spearmen and 3 dragon princes, bringing his total to 15 v 8. I guess that makes a huge difference :P

Quote:
It was kind of lucky DP broke from that combat and retreated.


I had all my fingers and toes crossed ;)

Quote:
I have a question about warshrines. Does their effect combines? Like when he got some +1S and +1A and then that nasty 3+ ward save, is it all there? Also, do you have to roll on the effect from warshrine each round or can you skip it if you don't want to add anything (might be useful if one effect replaces the previous one). Sorry, don't have WoC book with me at the moment.


Yes, they stack, and with Favour of the Gods, they can modify their roll by one, including to a result they already have to get a reroll. If you work it all out, on any given turn it gives them a 1/3 chance of getting the big one. Such a disgusting combo, and frankly I think it's a loophole that needs to be fixed!

The warshrines put their blessing on, then it's there for good, even after they die. The only time it disappears is if the chaos player chooses to put the shrine's blessing on something else.

And yes, they all stack :roll:

Quote:
Your magic phase was amazing. Sure, you rolled well for winds of magic but seeing how you miscast every second turn I see why you trust in Life Lore :) I am glad Light adds so nicely to the whole effect and it definitely made Swordmasters better. Imagine what it would be like to have Flesh to Stone on them too :) The only trouble is I wanted to use Light Archmage myself while after reading your reports I have second thoughts. Damn! :) I also do not think you would exchange your level 2 mage for a mage knight with Light? Mainly because of the Annulian Crystal.


It was a really tough choice for me. It'd have to be a mounted character for the armour save, so I'd have to change my list to support that - 5 knights wouldn't cut it. I'm really happy with the way the list plays right now, and I don't think I want to give up that crystal. I had a 4 v5, a 4 v6 and a 4 v4 enemy magic phase this game. That's a huge bonus in my eyes, since you can match his dice rolls with your own if you want, and you have 1 more to dispel (usually).

Quote:
I am also impressed by the speed this army posses despite being infantry mainly. Having 3 hard hitting infantry regiments means you don't really need a fighting character. Or do you miss one (BSB not counting)? Do you think you would benefit from exchanging one Swordmasters unit for another DP for example? I like Swordmasters a lot (surprise, surprise :)) but prefer to have a little more cavalry and I just wonder what do you think about the composition of your army at the moment after a few new battles


I think the key to infantry, especially hard hitting ones like swordmasters or lions, is to look for opportunities to punch through a unit and get the overrun. This effectively makes a unit of infantry move like knights - 12" average charge, then another 7" overrun. If you can force your opponent into situations where you get these charges, then yeah, the army really isn't that slow despite being mostly cavalry. The tricky part, of course, is getting them. I usually try to create a suppression zone towards the middle, so that if an enemy unit on my refused flank gets too ambitious, they risk a very painful counter charge, then focus on punching one flank.

As far as switching out the SM for some DP - In previous builds, I do just that. A unit of 10 dragon princes on their own is a sight to behold, as I'm sure Curu will agree. The difference is they don't have the staying power of the Swordmasters, so much more relies on getting a super effective charge. In this game, for example, I use the SM to grind down those marauders with life and light aid. This would have taken far too long with Dragon Princes.

Quote:
I am very glad your campaign is going on. When can we expect next battle report? :) I am also sure your WoC opponent will benefit from this hard fought battle and will be perpared next time you meet again. Congratulations and thanks once again!


Should know who my opponent is tonight, and hopefully I can arrange it this week still!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:43 pm 
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Quote:
Your turn 5 is written incorrectly. You say you charged DPs and spears into chosen. It looks like you charged spears into Warriors and DPs into dogs, overrunning into the same warriors.


I have fixed that now, in the report. My apologies for the confusion!

Quote:
Since you created this, it obviously is not his fault, but his lord is illegal. Both the Phylactery and the Dawnstone are Talismans, making him illegal.


I didn't actually write his list - just sat down with him and asked him questions and made suggestions really. So as such, I don't know for sure that he had this combo - only the dawnstone came up, and come to think of it he did take a S test on one of those dwellers, so maybe he didn't have it. Either way, it didn't matter much.

Quote:
Why would you/he put extra hand weapons on the Chosen? That is the absolute worst equipment for chaos infantry, even against elves. Generally halberds are better in almost every case, or even great weapons on chosen.


With the 3 buffs, it's not tough to get +1 Strength, +1 Attack and the ward save, eventually. That gives them 4 attacks each at S5 with this setup. His intent with this unit is to chew through big blocks of infantry as fast as possible. Maybe not the perfect setup, but pretty darn nasty regardless!

Quote:
Although I can understand it specifically against High Elves, great weapons on the warriors seem like a huge mistake too. It wastes their nice high initiative, when halberds would hit close to as hard and swing first against many opponents.


Yeah, he should likely switch them to halbreds. There was a game recently where it came down a charge on 5 of them remaining, and the ASL cost him the unit. I'll try to convince him again.

Quote:
What gift did the Chosen start the game with?


I believe it was strength.

Quote:
That is some seriously bloodly rolling. Ignoring the harder to hurt sorceror lord, I get the average as 10 dead Marauders and about 1.5 dead Swordmasters. Then the next round, with fewer Swordmasters, you killed another 9 despite still hitting the sorceror lord!


Tell me about it! If you read my last match, though, versus the Tomb Kings, you'll see that I was due for some luck when it comes to enemy ward saves lol.

Quote:
On his turn 3, he failed to cast. That does not end the magic phase; it merely breaks concentration. He can still use his remaining power dice to dispel Throne, just with no bonus.


Yep, so much excitement about him failing to cast that he forgot to dispel throne, and frankly I forgot about it too.

Quote:
How big were the chosen when you charged them? You mention killing 4+6 with Dwellers, meaning 10 alive, but also mention around 14 remain after the second Dwellers.


I'm not 100% on their starting size, but I know for sure that They had 14 left when I charged - two full ranks of 6, and two on the rear rank. So you're right, by that math he had more than 20 to start - this list was my 2500 point list from the tomb kings match versus his 2500 point list from his last match, so he must have spent his extra 100 points on some chosen. I forgot to grab his list at the end, so my apologies about the accuracy!

Quote:
In the first chosen combat round, you mention only killing 3 chosen. The expected value is under 5. And that is assuming no Toughness or armour buff, but you never mentioned what the other warshrine was doing.
Especially with likely reduced contact frontage by the second round, getting 5 the second round is above average. And obviously their breaking is unlikely.


Without a doubt luck played a HUGE part in taking this unit. Like I said, the best way to deal with them is to just feed them chaff. Charging them in general is an awful idea, but like I said, I had a point to prove! Also, once again, an error in the report - one of those wounds is actually on the warshrine which charged the swordmasters.


Thanks for the input dabber! Not much gets past you, that's for sure :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Wonderful report and win, yet again ;) Apart from the obvious of not engaging his Chosen, you did very well! I couldn't spot any obvious mistakes at least.

As to the annulian crystal - it really takes the oomph away from normal magic phases. Does it work equally well against the really strong ones though? I'm glad to hear you taking a liking to Light which served you really well here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:12 am 
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Quote:
As to the annulian crystal - it really takes the oomph away from normal magic phases. Does it work equally well against the really strong ones though? I'm glad to hear you taking a liking to Light which served you really well here.


I like that description a lot - it takes the oomph away from magic phases. I think that describes it best. Regardless of whether they're just channeling on one mage or they have a beefed up slann adding 3 - 4 power dice per phase, it still gives you more to work with. I also consider it a gain against the slann, because a dice lost is one less dice he can't add his bonus one to. For example, one dice at the end of the phase means an easy cast of miasma for that slann, and with that item you take it away.

Having said that, it's definitely no vortex shard when it comes to shutting down powerful. This item is more about mitigation over time, as opposed to one big effect. Its effect is rarely felt outright, but are definitely influential. Consider, for example, that one extra dispel dice you get per turn. With it, you effectively do the following:

1. Ensure that if your opponent rolls snakeyes, that you don't have to let him cast one spell
2. If your opponent rolls any 1's for the winds of magic, you have *more* dice to work with than him, allowing you to effectively neutralize his magic phase with your +5 to dispel
3. If he rolls any 2's, you match his magic phase. If your opponent has a serious magic phase, you have the opportunity to reliably dispel any two dice spell he throws, instead of a relatively dicey (get it??) chance at dispelling on 2 of your own.
4. At the end of the day 1 less dice for him to work with is one less dice, and one more for you to work with affords you more choices in the phase. You'll more frequently get the opportunity to stop bigger casts due to the regularity that you get 5+ dispel dice a turn.
5. The presence of more dispel dice tends to make opponents throw more dice at their spells, reducing the number of spells you have to weather in any given phase. If he knows I have 3 dice to throw, he knows that if he for sure wants it to go off, he'll need to throw 4, even if the spell calls for 3.

Again, not things you actively think about during a match, however when you go back and look over a battle report where you had it, it really does make a difference!

I've toyed with the idea of using the sigil of asuryan instead for a couple matches to see how I like it. I mean, the effect of this one is definitely noticed. However, I can see myself using the scroll just to try to destroy a spell, not because it was necessarily the right spell to dispel at the time, know what I mean?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:56 am 
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Hey Guys!

So after all that, we ended up deciding to restart the campaign after all. This was mostly due to a new player wanting to join in place of the Orc player. So my next match got delayed a bit. Having said that, this means that a new campaign is starting this coming week!

I have no idea what armies I'll be facing, since most of the players have more than one at their disposal. I will approach this campaign the same as the first one - I'll use one all-comers list for all of the battles.

Having said that, I'd be interested in hearing what you guys would like to see. Would you like me to carry on with my current list? Or perhaps try something new?

I've been toying with the idea of writing a Shadow magic specific list, or perhaps something a little more exotic even, like Death. In my head it would have a much heavier focus on the Shadow Magic/shooting synergy. I've been meaning to dust off the ol' Bolt Throwers!

So let me know which you guys would like to see more? We're setting up the matches on Tuesday, and hopefully everyone learned about what not to do in the last campaign, so you can expect plenty of battle reports with whatever list I go with!

D

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Hey Brewmaster. Like the last WoC game :) well executed, and congrats on achieving the "take down the chosen" mission!

Running a Life/Light list similar to yours currently, main differences being 2 blocks of PG/WL instead, with 2 5 man DP units and a tiranoc instead of WLC. Switched over recently and have been on a 3 game losing streak to a gunline empire list (1st experiences vs empire, actually) with some 50+ xbows split into 10-15 man units/detachments, pistolier teams, 2 large infantry blocks, 3 mortars, 2 cannons, hellstorm volley, and a steam tank. And archlector/lvl 4/BSB.

Wondering if you have any tactical advice on beating such a list on a reliable basis without relying excessively on the luck of the dice? (Misfires, IF, etc.) Was having abysmal luck with magic and rolling first turn, granted, but the basic problem is the inability to get anything to his lines sufficiently intact to face down the infantry blocks where the bulk of his points are. With a fairly spreadout deployment across the field that he uses (basic battleline) and the steam tank as the final deployment, I've fared poorly with a rush towards the line approach, or a weighted flank approach. I can't afford to hold back too long with the sheer amount of shooting I face, and a steam tank to crush/hold up one of the infantry blocks or pistoliers to harass and charge block don't help. The one game I managed to get a significant force through to his lines, taking down a couple of chaff xbowmen units then stalling on steadfast infantry blocks until the end of the game just wasn't enough points-wise to even draw.

Apart from taking BOH to force the needed early spells through +2 DD/dispel scroll, am actually at quite a loss to handle the empire list. The way he deploys, scouts/fast cav would be fairly useless, and I don't see a viable way to increase target saturation further without depleting blocks too much for them to survive (usefully) intact to the empire lines. Character assassination doesn't work too well when cannons/xbow rain play tag with your delivery unit first (tried once with a SH/RGOH noble unit)

Tactics-wise would be great if you have any suggestions based on your list/something similar like I mentioned? Have already caved in by switching blocks to PG/WL as opposed to WL/SM; would rather not modify even further by switching to say, Heavens or Shadow (though the latter is highly tempting).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:25 pm 
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@ hues - the best thing to do if you struggle with something in particular, especially over several games, is to post proper battle reports. This way, we can evaluate specifics instead of giving general advice. The latter is often useless, as you probably know how to do the basics anyways.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:05 am 
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Too true... but sadly can't bring along cameras to the place where I play the empire player, and I can't recall the specific details of the 1st 2 battles well enough to make batreps worthwhile. The last battle...well, was conceded at turn 3 after shooting took out all eagles/chariot, 1 DP unit, and brought 25 PG down to 5. And the steam tank overran a sacrificial DP unit to slam into my WLs (bad measurement/positioning on my part). Which basically left me with 20+ spears/2 archer units left in the backline during my turn 3 to face down 40 halberdiers with xbow detachment support.

Nevermind, will try paper recording the next game and see if I can get a batrep up after. Well, maybe the tedium of waiting for me to record things down on paper will exhaust him :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Hey Huesofblue,

Sorry for the delayed response! I ended up playing a last minute rematch versus the Lizardmen player that kicked my butt in the second round last night, which I'll post shortly.

With regards to your question: Man, what a tough matchup for us! Great question too. As Curu said, if you can manage a battle report, we can definitely give you specific pointers, but I'll still try my hand at some general ones.

1. His magic defense is good, but not omnipotent. Once you draw that scroll out, it's smooth sailing - 2 extra power dice a turn gets balanced out (on average) by our banner of sorcery, and with two mages, we have a better chance of channelling. Pha's protection is your best bet here - power this badboy up, and you successfully mitigate his next round of shooting by a significant margin. I'd throw 6 dice at it personally, just to give me a chance of it going off - it'd be worth the miscast versus this opponent. With my list, I'd just hope I get it I suppose, but you could always take the seerstaff on a level 2 for the guarantee. Remember, he's only got 2 or 3 turns to do enough damage to you that you can't take on his blocks, so he is the one under the gun. Get it? bahahaha.

2. Use natural cover. Empire crossbowmen in particular are hitting on 5's at long range already, so getting a single -1 to hit modifier effectively halves the number of hits you'll take in any given turn.

3. Remember, crossbows are move or shoot, and have a 90 degree field of vision. This opens up great opportunities to sneak eagles past him if he's not careful with his setups. I'd almost consider not dropping the eagles immediately, since their utility is so high in this scenario - they can single-handedly take out his artillery, so it forces him to waste shots on them. Remember, with no re-rolls his cannons, even with the best possible guess (10" from the back of the model I believe) he only has slightly over a 50% chance of actually hitting a model the size of our eagles. Any shot on them is another turn that your units have to move forward.

4. Dwellers is another great spell to either force out that dispel scroll or dice. There is no way an empire player would risk losing half of one of those big hordes - especially one with characters in it!

5. Steam tanks are a pain for sure, but if you're anything like me you have a ton of drops - his warmachines and detachments pretty much guarantee you a huge advantage in deployment. Couple this with the fact that his units take up a lot of space, and are fairly predictable with where they go (I wonder what's going on that hill...?), and you should be able to keep that tank pretty far from your important units. I'd try to get the bulk of my force on the opposite sides of one of his big blocks as the steam tank, clogging up his battle line. Failing that, I'd probably try to get it to charge my spears and put a wound or two on it.

6. Deploy wide. If you're ranking up deep versus a list like this, you make it really easy for a big template from the mortars to blast you into oblivion. Musician reforms are a beautiful thing!

7. Finally, pick one horde and focus on combo charging it, instead of trying to fight attrition battles with both. Use your chariot or eagles, or Dragon Princes - whatever you can - to stall the other one while you deal with one. We fight better than empire across the board, but we can't fight nearly as long. Only fight battles that favour your army's strengths!


Hope it helps!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:25 am 
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Clearing the Jungle

So before the commencement of our next (and hopefully longer!) Mighty Empires campaign, I managed to talk the Lizardman player who handed me my loss in the last campaign to a re-match.

My list is unchanged from the one listed at the beginning of this thread.

Lizardmen:

Slann Mage Priest - Cupped Hands, Focus of Mystery, Becalming Cogitation, Focus of Rumination, 4+ ward save
Skink Chieftain - Ancient Stegadon, Stegadon Warspear
Skink Priest - Dispel Scroll

20 x Temple Guard - Full command, Sun Standard of Chotec
42 x Saurus Warriors - Full Command
10 x Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes
10 x Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes

5 x Cold One Riders, Standard, Musician, Huanchi's Blessed Totem

3 x Salamanders

6 x Chameleon Skinks

His spells:
Skink Priest: Iceshard Blizzard
Slann: All spells from lore of Light

My spells:
Archmage: Earthblood, Awakening, Flesh, Throne, Regrowth ... no dwellers, darn!
Mage: Pha's Protection, Shem's Burning Gaze


Deployment

Image

My goal was simple going in to this match: Don't let the salamanders dictate my movement (even though they still scare the &^$^ out of me), and take that Slann out hard and fast. Easier said than done, I know, but I truly believe it to be the key to taking down a LM army, since so many points are concentrated in that one unit.

My two units of archers went down first, as I wanted to be sure to have my eagles in good spots to keep his big block under control while I took on his Temple Guard. After this, the two eagles went down as he dropped his two big blocks, and finally I put down the DP and swordmasters on the far flank to deal with the cold ones/stegadon, as well as matching up my White Lions versus the Temple Guard, intending to take full advantage of the fact that their S6 fully mitigates his armour and Toughness.

His Chameleon skinks deploy on my left flank, with the intent to pose problems for my vulnerable eagle and chariot.

He gets first turn, and we begin!

Turn 1

Lizardmen


Image

A modest advance by his main combat blocks, with his east-most unit of skinks running into the woods to take full advantage of being stubborn in them.

Funny story here - he's painted his chameleon skinks a shade of green that is almost identical to our mat. Since they're actually camouflaged, he forgets to move them :P

His winds are low, with a 3 v 4. He starts with a shem's burning gaze on my chariot, which I allow. D6 S4 hits aren't enough to worry me, as I can put wounds back on it from lifebloom; my primary concern is banishment. It puts one wound on my chariot when it is resolved. He follows it up with Pha's Protection on his salamanders, which I allow. Finally, he attempts a banishment, which I intended to dispel, but he fails to meet the casting value. I use my remaining dispel dice to build a small tower.

His skink shooting kills one of my swordmasters, and we move on to my turn.

High Elves

Image

There's time for subtlety, but I decide that now is not it. An aggressive move forward for most of my infantry, daring a charge on the lions from the Temple Guard. Instead of charging the swordmasters at the skinks, and them fleeing to safety, I move the elites up to within an inch of the jungle dwellers. My right flank moves up, but leaves a healthy 15" in between them and the imposing looking unit of cold ones.

My magic phase is 5 v 4, with him succeeding at one channel, and me rolling a 1 for my winds. He puts becalming cogitation on my Archmage, so I start by throwing 4 dice at a powered up Pha's Protection, and he fails to dispel it. The Mage puts his protective aura around a sizeable chunk of my army, and I throw my final dice at Awakening on the salamanders. It succeeds, but fails to wound. It does, however, heal the wound on the Lion Chariot.

My shooting manages to take out a chameleon skink, and we move on to his turn.

Turn 2

Lizardmen


Image

He declares a charge with his unit of cold ones on my swordmasters. I had measured out a very improbable charge, so I hold. Improbable, that is, until he reveals the blessed totem, which allows him to add D6" to his charge range. Naturally, he makes it in. ohboy.

He shuffles his skinks over to attempt to block both the swordmasters and the white lions from charging anything important, and rolls in his left flank to take out my chariot.

Magic is 8 v 7. He starts off with an iceshard blizzard on my larger unit of archers. I let this one go. He then casts shem's burning gaze again on the chariot, which I once again allow. It causes two wounds. He follows this up with a powered up speed of light with 5 dice, but rolls low. I take my chances with 5 of my own, and pull it off. Finally, he throws the rest at banishment, which I also manage to dispel.

His salamanders prepare to unleash their fiery fury, but stand in awe of Pha's protective power! Not a single one passes their test to fire this turn! (Do they each need to test, or one test for the unit?). His skinks meet similar problems, with the -1 to hit causing them to be unable to cause a wound to the chariot.

In combat, I'm starting to convince myself it's not so bad, when he reveals to me that his skink chief is weilding a lance that gives the stegadon +D6 impact hits. Sullenly, I await my 2D6+1 doses of pain. Thankfully, he rolls snakeyes for the hits, but still manages to crush 3 of my swordmasters. The Swordmasters deliver 9 wounds in return... until he rolls 8 out of 9 armour saves! The return attacks kills all but four of the elves, and they flee far enough to get away.

High Elves

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I declare lots of charges this turn: The swordmasters on the skinks in the woods and the White Lions, Lion Chariot and my Noble on his unit of temple guard. I resolve the swordmasters first, causing the skinks to smoosh up and free up room for the White Lions to resolve their charge. The Lion Chariot makes it, but my noble trips over his dress about 2" out from his unit.

I fly my western eagle up to deflect a charge on my main assault, and position the spearmen to abuse a flank, should he opt to overrun past the eagle. My Dragon Princes loop around the forest, attempting to get into a flanking/rear charge position.

Magic is 11 v 4. I start with a shem's burning gaze on his chameleon skinks. He allows it, and they take two wounds and flee. I attempt a Pha's Protection (single target) once again, but he dispels it. My cogitated Archmage then throws 3 dice at Earthblood, which goes off, and another 3 at Flesh, which he scrolls. My reasoning for not casting throne here was that with becalming in place, I didn't want to fully commit to life that turn. Instead, I went half and half, settling for the lesser effects, as I felt they'd still produce the desired impact on the combat.

Shooting, I manage to take out a few skinks from the bigger unit on the west.

In combat - My swordmasters don't have full frontage on the slippery lizards, so I only manage to kill 9 of them. They hold due to being steadfast in the forest, thwarting my attempt at overrunning into an advantageous position.

My Lion Chariot rolls in and does 2 wounds via impact hits, and 3 wounds from the white lions (both the elf and lion variety). My 14 attacks from my white lions transfers to 10 wounds, for which he gets no armour save. His return attacks do 2 wounds to the chariot (Which is at 3 wounds left due to the successful life spell this turn) and one wound to the white lions. He holds due to being stubborn.

Turn 3

Lizardmen


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He charges the pesky eagle with his huge block, and the remaining 4 swordmasters with his cold ones. His salamanders move up to get the bulk of his shots on the archers with the mage, but to also get one of the shots on the spearmen and force panic tests.

His magic is 8 v 7 once again. He throws 6 dice at a powered up speed of light. I allow it to go off, and he throws the remaining 4 at a powered up pha's protection, which I dispel with my remaining dice.

His salamanders and skinks all but wipe the archers off the map, leaving only the level 2 and his archer friend Max left. The shots, luckily, all sailed over my spearmen. The archers are within range of the BSB, and pass their break test.

In combat, my attacks still manage to kill the remainder of his temple guard, and the slann, no longer stubborn, fails his break test. I pursue with my lion chariot, but fail to catch it. The white lions reform facing left.

His big block smashes through the eagle, and he opts to overrun. His cold ones smash the remaining swordmasters, and he reforms to face the ones in the forest that have recently finished taking out the final skink. Those swordmasters reform to face the salamanders.

High Elves

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The Lion Chariot declares a charge on the slann, and pursues him off the board. In a fit of rage, he smashes my chariot on the floor. Well... I guess it might have been an accident. Whatever. (lol)

The White Lions and spearmen both declare a charge on his big block's flank, and the Dragon Princes continue looping around. My Swordmasters charge his salamanders, and my big unit of archers charges his remaining unit of skinks. I move the Level 2 out of his unit to target those chameleon skinks, since I've effectively eliminated his shooting at this point.

Finally, my remaining eagle moves up to redirect the unit of cold ones for another turn, while I deal with the salamanders.

Magic is 12 v 6 (I've been on a run of incredible luck with magic phases lately). Free of becalming, my Archmage begins by putting up a Throne of Vines. This is allowed to resolve. I follow it up with a shem's burning gaze, which kills only one chameleon skink, leaving 3 left. Darn! I then try a flesh to stone, which he dispels, followed by a successful earthblood on the White Lions and a Pha's Protection on the spearmen.

The swordmasters manage to do 7 wounds total - one salamander and 4 crew. He kills 3 swordmasters in return, but he manages to hold on snakeyes!

In the big combat, the White Lions and spearmen manage to kill 6 of his Saurus, and 3 spearmen and a lion fall in return. I win combat, but he is still steadfast. He opts not to reform in order to keep steadfast in place, hoping to grind down my spearmen.

The archers kill a few, win combat, but he once again holds due to being stubborn in a forest.

Turn 4

Lizardmen


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Quick turn here, with his magic all but neutralized. He charges his cold ones into the eagle (and kills it later, then reforms to again face the swordmasters).

His chameleon skinks move up to fire their shots into my squishy mage.

His magic is 8 v 6, and he throws 6 dice at Iceshard. I match it with my 6, and roll higher, dispelling it. He then uses the remaining to dispel throne.

His 6 poisoned shots only manage 1 wound, and my level 2 lives on!

In combat, the archers finish off the skinks, and his priest flees. I hold with the archers to avoid feeding the saurus combat resolution, instead reforming to face the chameleon skinks.

In the main fight, 7 saurus die, but he again manages to knock off enough of my ranks to retain steadfast! He holds, and again opts not to reform.

I'm sorry, I don't have any notes about the salamander combat here... It doesn't make sense that I killed the beasts themselves (too many wounds left between the beasts and handlers), so my guess is that I killed the remaining handlers (a misfire first turn took out an early 3), then he broke and just took them off the board. I reform with my swordmasters though, I know that for sure.

High Elves

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I charge his skink priest with my lion chariot to get him to flee back through the unit (into range for shem's). I charge my archers at his chameleon skinks, and continue moving the princes around to the rear of the big unit. The swordmaster await their final round with the cold ones, with the BSB running in to their unit as well.

Magic is 12 v 7 (I know!!). I start by putting throne back up, which he allows. I follow it up with a shem's on his priest, which he allows as well, and subsequently gets incinerated. I then regrow 5 of the spearmen, and he dispels flesh on them. I manage to get up earthblood, however, and fail my attempt at pha's protection.

Again we stalemate in the middle, with me not causing enough more wounds than him to get rid of that final rank.

Turn 5

Lizardmen


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He charges with his cold ones, but fails to make it (his banner is one use). With his magic, he dispels throne.

In combat, we stalemate once again (each round fewer and fewer white lions get to attack) and this time he opts to combat reform.

High Elves

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I charge my Dragon Princes in to the flanks of his saurus and my swordmasters into his cold ones.

In magic, I manage to get flesh, Pha's and Regrowth on the spears. With the added pressure from the princes, the troublesome block finally breaks, and gets run down.

In the other combat, his hero issues a challenge. I accept it with my bsb, and we each put a wound on each other. My swordmasters kill 3 of his cold one riders, and he breaks despite being stubborn (due to the stegadon). I fail to catch him.

At this point with all of his units either fleeing or off the table, we call it a match. To celebrate, I pick up his Stegadon and smash it on the floor, and exclaim "THAT'S FOR THE CHARIOT!". Well.. I may have made that last part up.

Result: A very bloody Massacre for the High Elves!

Final Thoughts:

I wanted to get in one more game with this list before I committed to using it in this upcoming campaign. Turns out, I absolutely love it. It's fun to play, and the new lores fit it perfectly. Some more thoughts:

1. Once again, I'm so impressed with Lore of Light as a Level 2's lore. With a multi purpose magic missile to clean up stragglers, and plenty of great buffs, many of which can be pumped up into auras, there really aren't any bad rolls on this lore.

2. Salamanders? What salamanders? What a stark contrast to my last two games versus these guys. A lot of it had to do with luck - his #1 shot opportunity got squashed by pha's - but also aggressive movement really limits their options. Get units near his units, and the angles really tighten up for where he can shoot these guys. Just wish he'd tried to shoot my BSB :P

3. I'm rolling hot for my magic phase, yes, but I'm also very happy with the way my dispelling is going. In this game I was ( I feel) very effective at committing to dispel the most important spells, and let the chaff run their course.

4. You should have seen my face when he told me about that cold one combo...

5. I think my opponent should have reformed that big block much sooner. Yes, he would have run the risk of not being steadfast, but he then gets his rank bonus, extra rank of attacks and his parry save. The way I was rolling, this might have led him to win a round!

As always, I'd love to hear your comments! You guys have been absolutely great with them so far.

I had such a good experience this match, that I have decided to continue on with this list in the coming campaign. We did our first round matchups tonight - I have my first official match with the Warriors of chaos player from my last report. Let's see if I can manage it again. This time I'll play with a much more serious goal in mind - avoid the chosen at all costs! lol.

D

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:32 am 
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Hi Brewmaster!

Excellent game and congratulations on your win! Good plan and perfectly executed. It really showed how important a Slann is for Lizardmen army. Although I wonder if Life lore is not "must have" for them. Without tougher TG and no ward save on them your WL cut them in no time and that definitely put him in huge disadvantage.

From the pictures it seems like his chieftain on Stegadon joined cavalry unit. Am I correct? If yes, is he allow to do it? Why did he keep them stationary first turn? In any case I think he didn't use them properly this game and they ware chasing small targets while they were needed to countercharge WL. If the Stegadon or cavalry were there it would make your task to kill Slann quickly much more difficult. The fact he broke in his turn made things even better for you as you could make WL ready for next charge while LC could finish off the Slann anyway (despite not catching it in the first place).

I am not sure if it was a good decision to charge an eagle with his big block of Saurus. He was losing the game, yes, but then exposing a flank to the charge of two units is not good idea. He could kill the eagle with skinks and face your charge front to front. Maybe DP charge would break them but he had better chances to keep his unit alive. In general you managed to deal with his units one by one and they didn't support each other at all so I think that was the reason why he lost. And you forced him to do it so kudos to you!

I also like the way your army works. I begin to think that Level 4 + level 2 + banner of Sorcery is a way to go. No matter what is your composition and what lores you use, you can create a very effective magic phase with this set up. We have more and more of examples that this is the case. And apart from BSB you don't have any other combat character. It seems you trust your units more :)

Thanks again and I am looking forward to reading about the re-match against WoC! :)

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Hey Swordmaster!

Thanks again for the feedback!

Quote:
It really showed how important a Slann is for Lizardmen army. Although I wonder if Life lore is not "must have" for them. Without tougher TG and no ward save on them your WL cut them in no time and that definitely put him in huge disadvantage.


Light and Life bring different things to the table for the Lizardmen. Light tends to be pretty highly regarded because it gives the Lizardmen solutions to the two things that plague them most: Weaponskill and initiative. It also packs a double whallop against us High Elves - two of the spells have the ability to deprive us of our ASF rerolls, while increasing their damage potential significantly. On top of that, the ability to make the spells AoE with a mage that is typically central in their battle line makes the lore of Light a great choice as well. In this particular match, however, I knew what the threat was and eliminated it - a speed of light in the round my White Lions hit his Temple Guard would have had me hitting on 4's with no rerolls as opposed to 3's with them (a 50% hitrate versus 89%). His offensive capability would have then increased, effectively bogging me down in a prolonged combat.

I think he only rolled 16 or so on his 5 dice, though, so I felt comfortable throwing 5 of my own to take it down. This was one of those moments where had this spell gone off, the game would have been drastically different.

Quote:
From the pictures it seems like his chieftain on Stegadon joined cavalry unit. Am I correct? If yes, is he allow to do it? Why did he keep them stationary first turn? In any case I think he didn't use them properly this game and they ware chasing small targets while they were needed to countercharge WL. If the Stegadon or cavalry were there it would make your task to kill Slann quickly much more difficult. The fact he broke in his turn made things even better for you as you could make WL ready for next charge while LC could finish off the Slann anyway (despite not catching it in the first place).


As far as I know, it's legal. Not 100% sure, though. He held back that first turn because he knew he had a longer than expected charge range (secretly). He effectively played possum with it - he knew that I would move up to the expected distance plus an inch or two, so either way he'd get the second turn charge. I'm pretty sure his goal was to loop around behind with this unit, and didn't expect me to be so aggressive moving up - last game I sat back significantly more. So basically while he was taking out those swordmasters, the battle sort of passed them by.

The other thing to consider is that with his 7 drops total versus my 10 total (the first 4 of which are tough discern any tactical information from), by the time this unit went down, he didn't have much to work with in terms of information. He knows I love refused flanks, so my guess was that he wanted to use a hard hitting unit like that to disrupt my plans and deny me flank charges.

I totally agree with you though, and told him as much - that thing needed to be front and center with his temple guard. A 600 someodd point unit shouldn't be off playing games on the flank (unless the rest of your army is there too :P)

Quote:
I am not sure if it was a good decision to charge an eagle with his big block of Saurus. He was losing the game, yes, but then exposing a flank to the charge of two units is not good idea. He could kill the eagle with skinks and face your charge front to front. Maybe DP charge would break them but he had better chances to keep his unit alive. In general you managed to deal with his units one by one and they didn't support each other at all so I think that was the reason why he lost. And you forced him to do it so kudos to you!


Once again, totally agreed. At this point I think he was getting a bit frustrated - the Slann was pretty much doomed. Regardless, when we resolved combat, he chose to resolve the Slann combat first, so he saw the situation unfold there first - the chariot pursued, the lions reformed, etc. His choices were basically - take a front charge from the white lions and a flank charge from the spearmen, followed by a second flank charge from the chariot, or get the white lions on the back of the unit and limit how many attacks they get each turn. Either way, without the Slann's support, and with his army effectively divided in two, this combat was just a matter of time.

Quote:
I also like the way your army works. I begin to think that Level 4 + level 2 + banner of Sorcery is a way to go. No matter what is your composition and what lores you use, you can create a very effective magic phase with this set up. We have more and more of examples that this is the case. And apart from BSB you don't have any other combat character. It seems you trust your units more :)


It definitely has been working great for me! I'm excited to go up against some players outside of our gaming group as well- I might head down the local game shop tomorrow and try my hand at their game night now that they've raised the point limit to 2500.

The reason I'm such a big fan of the magic phase this list builds is because of the reliability it has built in. Becalming would be awful if I just had my Archmage to rely on, for example. Failing a cast or a dispel isn't a catastrophic failure. Bad winds rolls are often mitigated by channelling and the banner. The list goes on, and I intend to detail it in a future tactics article about this list.

In terms of trusting our troops - I find that unless you have a specific purpose in mind for a combat character (ie. a cavalry prince, a radiant noble, etc.), you're almost always better with more troops. We have precious few to begin with, and for 150 someodd points you could get an equipped noble, or you could get 10 of our elite infantry. I truly view High Elf characters in more of a support role than front and center, since by and large our elites hit as hard as most other army's characters do!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:16 pm 
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The Warspear Stegadon definitely canNOT join a unit. Page 105, left column.

Per the Lizardmen FAQ, Huanchi's Blessed Totem is activated BEFORE charge reactions. Personally I think that is dumb, as the banner is worth little in 8th, and after reactions would give it some extra value, but that is what the FAQ says.

No one knows what to do with Salamanders and Pha's.

Wasn't the Slann his BSB also? BSB auto-dies when broken in combat.

I think you won this when your opponent messed up his second turn. He cannot afford to let un-buffed Temple Guard fight White Lions, but he did not prevent that. Maybe he thought the skinks blocked them? Good job on using the Swordmasters to pull the skinks out of the line. Instead he played around with little spells that don't matter. From what I've seen, you can play Light Slann casting just powered up Speed of Light and Pha's Protection, and throwing odd dice at other spells. He didn't try any for of Pha's that turn at all, or Timewarp would be awesome against High Elves and he didn't even try that either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Nice report, although your opponent really made this one a walk in the park for you. Why won't my opponents move their level 4's guard unit straight at my strongest unit so I can kill it? #-o


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Good report, and well done. No comments really, just enjoyed reading it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Quote:
Nice report, although your opponent really made this one a walk in the park for you. Why won't my opponents move their level 4's guard unit straight at my strongest unit so I can kill it? #-o


Haha, glad you guys liked it. Admittedly, my opponent really made some poor choices in this matchup. However, it's the one of those things I can't control in a game of warhammer - How my opponents play :P

Quote:
The Warspear Stegadon definitely canNOT join a unit. Page 105, left column.


I wish I could take you along to my games dabber! I can't name how many times you've been able to clarify/point out rules for me, and I'm very grateful.

Quote:
Wasn't the Slann his BSB also? BSB auto-dies when broken in combat.


Again, good catch, I totally missed that one!

Quote:
I think you won this when your opponent messed up his second turn. He cannot afford to let un-buffed Temple Guard fight White Lions, but he did not prevent that. Maybe he thought the skinks blocked them?


He definitely thought those skinks would block that charge. He didn't actually measure up how much they'd compress over, though. I also don't think he thought that I could even declare the charge with the lions due to not actually being able to make the charge until the skinks moved - I actually had to reference the rulebook (page 16 for any that are wondering) where it clearly states that if a unit is what is preventing the charge, the charge can still be declared as units can potentially move.

Quote:
Instead he played around with little spells that don't matter.


He loves to try to squeeze as many spells out of his phase as possible. I keep telling him one day it will bite him in the ass, and for once it did. When using all of his dice for two spells would have been more effective, instead he tried to create pressure with inconsequential ones, generating lots of bonus dice, but very little effect. Had he managed a Pha's and a Timewarp, it would have stalled my entire advance, and forced me to rethink my plan of attack.



Regardless of my opponent's performance, however, I love posting these things. It allows me to look at my own playing under a fine tooth comb, and it also lets me put myself under the scrutiny of others. Very rarely do I post a report without learning something useful; just take the example above about the legality of the cold one unit. I just assumed it was legal!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Take No Prisoners

So Thursday night I decided to head down to our local game shop to try my list out against a random opponent. I was really excited about this match, as I had no idea what I would be facing, which is exactly what I designed this list for.

The random match-up pitted me against a Dwarven army. The point limit at the local game night was recently increased to 2500, so I brought the exact same list I brought to the most recent two battles. The list is on the first page of this blog, plus a couple white lions, a bit more core and a 4+ ward on my archmage.

His list was as follows, to the best of my memory:

Runelord, Anvil of Doom, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking, Master Rune of Balance
Thane, BSB, Strollaz Rune, Defensive build
Thane, Oathstone, Great Weapon, 2+ armour save
Thane, Rune of Brotherhood, Great Weapon
Dragonslayer

40 x Dwarf Warriors, HW + S, Full Command
25 x Longbeards, GW, Full Command
30 x Trollslayers
20 x Miners, full command, steamdrill

Cannon, Rune of Reloading
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Reloading, 2x Rune of Penetration
Organ Gun

My spells were:
Archmage: Earthblood, Awakening, Flesh to Stone, Throne, Dwellers
Mage: Pha's Protection, Briona's Timewarp

Deployment

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By virtue of having 4 low commitment drops versus his 5 drops total, I pretty much dictated this phase. Because of the suspicious way he deployed his Trollslayers (on an angle), and more obviously the way he was measuring 12" from his center unit, I assumed Strollaz Rune was going to be in his list. Instead of potentially getting bogged down in a huge unit of slayers (I don't know the Dwarves that well, so I didn't know what tricks were in store for me with that unit), I decided to weight the right flank, and take the points for the Longbeards first.

Turn 1

Dwarves


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He gets first turn, and mostly just repositions his units. His Trollslayers turn to face the middle, undoubtedly looking to get an Oath and Honour boost into combat if I get too aggressive in the middle.

In his shooting phase, he puts a grudge thrower shot right in the middle of my white lion unit, but it scatters right into the swordmasters. I take 6 wounds to the northern unit and 3 wounds to the one behind.

He then fires a cannon shot on the white lions, and takes out 4, then puts wrath & Ruin on my Dragon Princes - fails to wound, but they're at half speed.

We move on to my turn.

High Elves

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My troops on the right fan out, with the swordmasters getting into position for a flank charge on the longbeards, as well as threaten a flank charge should he try any oath & honour trickery.

Now that space is no longer a premium on the right, the white lions reform to 7 wide, and move up 5". The spearmen also reform to their full ranks and reposition themselves modestly.

My eastern Great Eagle flies full distance towards the grudge thrower, but landing just beyond the 24" mark from the organ gun. The Western one moves up to provide a distraction and prevent more oath and honour possibilities.

In magic, he reveals that in addition to the 3 dice his runelord produces, he also steals one of mine. I think I got lucky, and the total was like 8v8 this turn. I try for a pha's protection and an earthblood, but both are dispelled.

I fire all of my archer shots at the Organ Gun, and manage to put a wound on it.


Turn 2

Dwarves


Image

His miners fail to arrive, and he repositions his trollslayers to deal with the approaching chariot threat - he doesn't want it getting through to the back of his lines.

He moves his longbeards up and plunks down his oathstone, ready to face the onslaught that is coming

He fires his grudge thrower at the white lions once again, and manages to kill a few more. At this point they're at 14 models remaining. His cannon fires at my spearmen, taking 3 out, and the organ gun turns the eagle into a bloody pile of feathers.

His Anvil puts wrath & Ruin on my swordmasters, killing 3 more and reducing their movement.


High Elves

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I declare charges with my three units of elites - two on the flank, one on the front. I also declare one with my BSB, but he can't make it in due to no frontage (I had planned on shuffling the white lions over far enough, but the swordmasters ended up overhanging the unit).

I forget to charge the grudge thrower with my great eagle (*facepalm*), so I end up just moving him up closer to guarantee a charge next turn. On the western front, the chariot feints back to threaten the middle once again.

Magic sees me with 7 v 8, but I actually roll boxcars for my channel attempts! I throw three dice at flesh to stone, which he spellbreaks. I then toss 6 dice at a powered up briona's timewarp, and what do you know? Irresistable Miscast. The spell encompasses the white lions and the southernmost unit of swordmasters, as well as all the troops in the middle. For his troubles, the wizard is reduced to level 0.

Shooting, I manage to put a second wound on the organ gun - one more to go!

Versus the longbeards, the white lions whiff their attacks majorly, only killing 5 dwarves. The swordmasters more than make up for it, however, by taking down 16 more. In return, the Thane kills the white lion champion in a challenge, and the rank and file kills two more white lions. The dwarves break, and I pursue with the northern - most swordmasters. This was probably the worst call I made this game - I should have just pursued with all of them, and been that much closer to the back line.

As it was, I tried to reform to face the middle with the lions, but the swordmasters were blocking them. Now, I have yet to look this up, but does a unit when it reforms actually need to be able to turn to the direction? Or can they just reposition themselves? If the latter is true, I really robbed myself here by not knowing the rules well enough.

We move on to his turn.

Turn 3

Dwarves


Image

With the threat on the western front gone, he repositions his slayers once again to threaten the middle. His miners appear, and his warriors are emboldened by this and move up a bit.

He shoots his cannon right down the front rank of my stupidly reformed white lions. I then remember that any cannon with a rune on it is treated as magical attacks, so I promptly fail my look out sir roll for my archmage. The cannon takes out 6 white lions, and I completely forget about the 4+ ward save I've given the archmage. He rolls to wound him successfully, then throws his D6 for how many wounds it does... 2! Still in it!

The grudge thrower clips the very back of the unit and fails to wound.

He puts wrath & Ruin on the great eagle, and only manages to put 2 wounds on it.

The organ gun lines up a shot against my swordmasters near the house and misfires his shot.

High Elves

Image

Eager to make up for my second turn reform buffoonery, my swordmasters declare a charge on the still fleeing unit of longbeards. They flee off the board, and the swordmasters roll a huge 11" for their charge range, putting them right into the grudge thrower! (The angle doesn't look right in the picture, but the hill was actually a little to the left)

The other two units of elites double time it due to Briona's Timewarp, with the swordmasters coming around back and threatening the anvil and cannon, and the white lions threatening the rear of the unit of warriors.

My archers at the back of the field reform to redirect the miners for a turn, and the Level 0 mage runs off into the forest, unable to face the judging eyes of his fellow elves after losing his two levels. The eagle declares a charge on the grudge thrower as well, and I find out that engineers can actually stand and shoot - I thought he was kidding around about stand and shooting with his big catapult. The two pistol shots take down my eagle, and I write down another thing in my "Things to remember" book. It's pretty much a novel at this point.

Magic is 9 v 8 (I roll boxcars for channels again!), and I start with earthblood on my lions, which he dispels. I then throw my remaining 6 dice at dwellers, and he spellbreaks it. Well, at least they're both gone now!

Shooting manages to put the final wound on the pesky organ gun, and we move to his turn.

Turn 4

Dwarves


Image

He charges his miners into my archers, and turns his trollslayers to face the incoming threat at the back of his lines. His warriors move up, preparing to sandwich my spearmen.

His shooting, with the grudge thrower and the organ gun down, is just his cannon and anvil. He fires a shot into the spears with the cannon, but it misfires on its bounce, only killing one elf.

After much deliberation, he declares "Go big or go home" and strikes the rune of wrath & Ruin on ancient power. He succeeds at his striking roll, and then rolls 3 units on a D3 for units effected. Great...

He decimates my 3 units of elites, reducing the northern unit of Swordmasters to 3, the southern one to 6 and the white lions to 5.

In combat, he kills all but one archer, who breaks. He decides to hold and reform.

High Elves

Image

The longbeards and the grudge thrower are down, but I still have a lot of work to do, and my numbers are seriously dwindling. It's now or never, so I declare a charge with my lion chariot, Dragon Princes, Spearmen and the white lions on the rear of the unit. They all make their charges, despite wrath & ruin halving the movement of the White Lions this turn.

I try a charge with one of the units of swordmasters - they're only marching 5" this turn anyway - but no surprises, they don't make it in.

My magic phase is 6 v 8, so I throw all my dice at dwellers. I roll irresistable, and it goes off on the trollslayers. 11 of them get dragged into the ground. Then I roll my miscast... snakeyes. Oh boy! I roll to see if the archmage gets sucked into the void, but he manages to stay safe. We then put down the large S10 template. It kills my remaining 5 white lions, but because I'm in the back of his unit, it takes out no less than 19 of the Warriors! Well that was unexpected lol!

Shooting manages to put another 3 wounds on the slayers.

In combat, the combined might of my Chariot, Dragon Princes and spearmen reduce him to one rank remaining, and he only manages to put a couple wounds on my spearmen. He fails to make his insane courage break test, and I pursue with the dragon princes. I don't pursue with the archmage, so the Dragon Princes catch him, but stay where they are, blocked by the mage (I didn't want them taking a nasty flank charge from those slayers.

The spearmen reform to face the miners.

Turn 5

Dwarves

Image

He charges in to the front of the dragon princes (The picture, again, doesn't do the angles justice) with his trollslayers. His miners sit tight, wanting the spears to be the aggressors to reduce the number of attacks they have during the first round.

He shoots his cannon at my lonesome archmage, but the cannon misfires.

He fires off another ancient power wrath and ruin, and once again successfully strikes it. He rolls for two units effecting it, and targets both the swordmasters, bringing the northern unit down to 1, and the southern unit down to 2.

In combat, he manages to kill two of my knights, but the dragon princes take down 4 of his. He has no command units, so the combat is tied (He's down to only one rank).

High Elves

Image

I charge in to his slayers with my chariot, and manage to rally my archmage. Rather than lose my swordmaster units to his runelord + guard, I just sit tight this turn. He can't possibly roll ancient power again, right?

In magic, I get 7 v 8, and actually manage to sneak a flesh to stone through on my spearmen.

My spearmen manage to take down a few miners, and my BSB throws down with his Thane. I put a wound on him as well. I can't remember the specifics of this combat, but I do remember that this turn he actually held, and he broke next turn. Either way, the result is the same.

Turn 6

Dwarves


Image

Not much left on the table for him at this point.

He misfires once again with the cannon, so he goes for broke with the ancient power (How much of this crap is kicking around? I'm starting to feel like it's not very ancient...), and he successfully strikes it once again. He finishes off the units of swordmasters.

My Dragon Princes and chariots finish off his troll slayers, and we call it a match.


End result: One of the bloodiest massacres I've ever seen!

He took:
2 units of swordmasters
2 Eagles
My White Lions

which totals 997 points. I'm pretty sure with the couple of standards I took, and the points for the BSB, I'd be at over 2000 victory points.

Final Thoughts

I came dangerously close to losing this match on turn 2. Once again, I need to get more in the habit of thinking about where my units go *after* a combat is complete. An overrun, in tandem with Briona's Timewarp would have had my units right in his runelord's face a turn earlier, and would have saved me from all of those punishing wrath & ruin's.

I also can't decide whether it was smart to not charge in with those few swordmasters remaining on the anvil. I was thinking of trying to save their points, but realistically that was probably a pretty silly idea. I would have been better off taking a shot at shutting down that anvil.

He never did get to use Oath & Honour to create charge opportunities. I kept him busy with trying to slow down my units. It definitely is tricky, however, trying to imagine all of the possibilities with that rune - he could reform, then charge in the same turn!

I think in the future, I'll put more emphasis on shutting that anvil down. It was a tough choice, since that grudge thrower is pretty punishing too, but that anvil with ancient power is just so nasty versus our squishy elves.

With my magic phase pretty much shut down, I really had to prioritize spells. You'll notice I didn't bother with Throne - not only would he have dispelled my casting attempt, but it would also be guaranteed not to last more than a turn. Instead, I settled for trying to force through the lesser effects (better than nothing!)

This was definitely a tough matchup for me - definitely not a gunline in any sense of the word, but that punishing artillery really threatened my numbers, and my ability to effectively take down his units.


Thanks for reading guys!

D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:05 am 
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Next time cast Dwellers on the Anvil, and laugh. I doubt your opponent will forgo the Rune of Forging (reroll ALL misfires, for his cannon) again after that game :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:31 am 
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Those Trollslayers spent most of the game just turning around in circles =P

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:18 am 
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Quote:
Next time cast Dwellers on the Anvil, and laugh. I doubt your opponent will forgo the Rune of Forging (reroll ALL misfires, for his cannon) again after that game :D


No kidding! It's funny, Dwarven warmachines are renown for their reliability, but it seems to me that the way he built them, they really let him down when it mattered. Personally, I agree, I would have built the cannon with the rune of forging, and the catapult with the rune of accuracy. Not to mention I don't really see the point of S3 warriors being in a horde formation, and the S6 Longbeards being ranked up.

Quote:
Those Trollslayers spent most of the game just turning around in circles =P


They definitely didn't commit to anything until it was too late. I think he put too much of his energy into setting up counter charges, and ended up not really accomplishing anything with them at all all game.

He was very pleasant to play against though, and had a great sense of humour about the whole match, so in the end it was a positive experience for both of us.


Now, after the match, the whole group of us went out and had a few beers together and talked about the night - my first time meeting most of these guys. One of them was silly confident about his army (Daemons), and even went as far as saying "I don't really use fear in league night games to give everyone else a chance".

I'm hoping I get to play that guy soon :twisted:

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A Detailed Tactics Article of Bremaster_D’s List

Introduction

Hello friends. If you’ve been following my blog, let me first extend my thanks. Your feedback and comments are extremely valuable to me, and it makes me glad to know that others are enjoying reading my reports and longwinded rambles as I am writing them.

Now that I have a few battles under my belt with this list, I feel comfortable writing this article. It is going to detail various things, ranging from why I designed this list the way I did to the tactics and strategies I try to use to increase their effectiveness.

This one is going to be a long one, so don’t say I didn’t warn you!

First, the list as it stands right now:

Archmage - Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Silver Wand, Lore of Life
Noble - BSB, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, GW
Mage - Annulian Crystal, Level 2, Light Magic

Archers x 12, Musician
Archers x 12
Spearmen x 35 - Full command

White Lion x 17 - Full command, Banner of Sorcery
Swordmasters x 14 - Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame
Swordmasters x 14
Dragon Princes x 5
Lion Chariot x 1

Great Eagles x 2

Total: 2400

When I move up to 2500, I fill out the White Lions to 20, give the Archmage a 4+ ward, and bump up the archers with the musician to 14

Troop Selection

This is where it all starts. If you’ve read my article “writing an army list”, you’ll know that I put quite a bit of thought into writing my lists.

My list started as a concept – Target isolation. That is to say, what I wanted my list to accomplish is to systematically eliminate enemies by distracting and delaying other units, while my heavy hitters irrefutably win combat by combining their force.

So how do I accomplish that goal? Well, first I need force. Not going to get much done without that! My original list began with two small units of elite infantry capable of dishing out pain – originally 14 white lions and 14 swordmasters, later evolving to 2 units of 14 swordmasters. What I love about the swordmasters is their ability to compress so much hitting power in so little space. Very little else in the game can boast the amount of pain these guys can dish out. Two units combined can make mincemeat of basically anything in the game without breaking a sweat.

Next, I began to think about the threats to my list. If my goal was to have small, hard hitting units, there are several things to look out for:

1. Large steadfast hordes bogging them down
2. Ranged force, capable of capitalizing on their squishy nature
3. Units capable of stalling/redirecting or otherwise disrupting their ability to combine their arms
4. Enemy magic capable of reducing their effectiveness through various means

In addition to these concerns, I had the other portion of my primary objective left to fill – how do I prevent the enemy from combining his units in the same way I do?

First, the threats. To defeat steadfast reliably, I needed ranks. Cheapest way to get those, hands down, was spearmen. I don’t care how much damage they do – the elites will fill that role – I just need them to ensure the isolated target breaks during the window opened up by my delaying units. This concept has been covered in detail by many others on this board, so I won’t bore you with the details, but needless to say, 35 spearmen quickly found their way into the roster.

Second, I considered the ranged force threat. Swordmasters, with their T3 and 5+ AS, fold easily to shooting and magical pressure. To circumvent this, it becomes clear that defensive magic is needed to ensure that these guys get to their target, and should the plan go awry and they don’t manage to break the unit in a round, ideally they don’t get ground down through attrition. Originally I thought that the lore of shadows brought enough to the table defensively via. Miasma and Enfeebling foe, however after a few games I made the switch to Life – the swordmasters hit hard enough on their own!

Third, I considered the stalling and redirecting units the opponent might have. Typically these units are cheap, and cheap units are generally vulnerable to our S3 shooting. Enter the archers. Two units of these guys gives me options to shoot at two support units a turn, or focus their shots on one. They also have the benefit of filling up my core!

Finally, I needed a way to mitigate enemy magic. There is a plethora of spells out there that can wreak havoc on our dainty elves’ ability to dish out damage. I added in a level 2 with the annullian crystal to give me more options in the defensive magic phase, and help close the gap against powerful, magic using opponents. I decided on the crystal because much like my offensive phase, I wanted steady reliability.

Once that was done, I wanted to build in redundancy to my list. If one of those units of swordmasters should fall, I still wanted to have the ability to accomplish my primary goal. The White Lions fill this role nicely – they can fill in for the swordmasters in a pinch, or they can take over for the spearmen as an anchor, should the spearmen not be available (Check out my game vs. the Warriors of Chaos for an example of this)

To fill the role of redirecting and stalling the enemy, I included 2 eagles. These guys are so versatile that there’s a 5 page long thread located here detailing their use. Best 100 points spent in this list, if you ask me!

Finally, I included a BSB for obvious reasons, and 2 fast moving, hard hitting units in the form of the Dragon Princes and Lion Chariots. I love these guys because they put out what I call a huge “suppression zone”. There’s about 16” around both of these guys that makes the opponent really think twice about entering. Pair them up , and people tend to play very cautiously. So their roles double up – they can provide hitting power in tandem with charging units, or they can slow the enemy down by creating areas they don’t want to enter, hence “suppression zone”.

So that summarizes pretty well why I took the units I did.

Target Isolation

High Elves hit hard, and hit first. This makes us the best army in the game to use the idea of target isolation. I’d make the argument that it’s almost necessary. With our cheapest troops costing 9 points each, we simply can’t afford to get into protracted combats. For our army, truly, the best defense is a good offense.

Isolating targets is the best way to accomplish this. Let’s use some examples. First, in my game vs. the Orcs & Goblins player, I went up against a unit of 25 black orcs. Now, deployed 6 wide as they were, and assuming they use their AHW for the turn, those black orcs are putting out 19 attacks at WS4 S4. If I charge that unit with a single unit of swordmasters, I kill around 12 of them, and he gets his full attacks back. I’ll win combat, but my unit suffers the casualties of his return attacks, and he’ll likely be steadfast.

Instead, I charged with 3 units that turn:

Image

Between all of the attacks that went into that unit, it essentially vaporized. The target was isolated, and my redirecting units (eagles) moved up to assist in this task, keeping the big unit of biguns from counter charging after the fact. Unfortunately in this particular game, my lack of knowledge of the rules of multiple charges led to him taking my spears. The next High Elf turn, however, the same thing happened again – the dragon princes and phoenix guard combined their arms to eliminate that unit of biguns.
Interestingly as well, in this game you can see a great example of the two units of dragon princes creating a suppression zone – his western-most unit of orcs was very conservative in their advance, fearing taking a charge from two units of the elite knights.

It’s not always as easy as it seems either! Let’s take my losing game with the lizardmen, for example. In this game, I fatally misgauged how an overrun was going to happen in turn 3, and the result was the complete opposite of what I had intended – he managed to isolate *my* units one by one, and his troops are much better at attrition.

The key is to consider a few things when playing with multiple small units – how much frontage are you working with, and how do I fit in the most hitting power into that frontage. Spearmen, for example, don’t hit nearly as hard as swordmasters. There is no sense, then, in taking up valuable frontage with the spearmen. Charge with the swordmasters first, and leave a corner for the spears – you still get their rank bonus, but you get the maximum amount of pain out of the frontage that you have to work with. The more frontage the enemy gives us to work with, the more pain we can fit in there!

Movement

So infantry is compact and hard hitting. One weakness it has, however, is its movement. Infantry armies don’t have near the mobility options that cavalry based ones do. This means that often, different tactics are required. There’s a few things I like to do to try to circumvent this.

1. Master the art of the reform and overrun

One of the benefits of taking down units quickly and efficiently is that pursuant to combat, all of your units have the option of reforming or overrunning. This opens up a plethora of options, particularly for an army that consists of multiple small units.

First, the overrun. It can effectively make your infantry move like cavalry if used properly. Not only do you get to move (on average) further due to the charge, but add on top of that an overrun/pursuit move, and often you can see infantry moving upwards of 20” in one turn!

It’s important to consider the direction of pursuit. Very rarely do you actually manage to vaporize a unit completely, so often the extra movement comes in the form of a pursuit. In this case, remember that the enemy flees away from the unit with the largest numbers. Using this, with a little foresight, you can often orchestrate a redirection of your units as well – often a flanking unit can move 10” west, then another 8” north when pursuing. There’s so many possibilities with this, provided you think a few turns ahead!

Second, the free reform after combat was one of the biggest boons to small unit armies in 8th edition. Many people default to pursuing a unit with everything they have to guarantee getting the points for the unit (I’m guilty of this too!), but consider in many cases the advantage that can be gained with the reform.

Consider this turn, versus warriors of chaos:

Image

In this turn, the phoenix guard finish up with the chariot, and reform to face the flank of the menacing block of Chaos Warriors. This provided the avenue for the next turn’s multiple charge that eventually took the unit down.

Since the purpose of isolating targets is to take them down quickly and efficiently, it is very reasonable to consider these movement benefits into your overall battle strategy – they’re not just fringe benefits, but calculated bonuses that you factor into your movement plan.

2. Force the enemy into bad positions.

Another advantage to having multiple small units is that instead of having one big obvious charge arc, you have many. This comes in very handy when it comes to fast moving units, and it is also great for preventing the above situation from happening to you. I like to pair up my elites – you’ll notice this in many of my games – because having them together often provides me with plenty of charge/counter charge opportunities, and it also discourages my opponents from attempting to take one unit out, for fear of the ensuing counter charge (usually a flank, if I’ve planned it right)

Essentially what this means is that instead of your army having to move fast, instead you use your troops to dictate the enemy’s movement. Remember, any time you’re forcing your opponent to move predictably, you’re at a significant advantage!

3. Quantity over Quality

Whereas a list like Curu’s or Seredain’s has a high quality movement phase, I have a high quantity movement phase. What I mean by this, is that essentially these cavalry lists are sort of like cruise missiles. There are one or two units that primarily dictate their movement phase. These units are also capable of delivering a lot of pain, so it puts the enemy into a tough position – how do I contain such a powerful, fast moving unit?

Mine operates a bit differently – instead of one very fast unit, I have many smaller units that although they move slowly in comparison, they create a swarm – like effect that is very difficult for an opponent to manage with their own movement phase. This then ties in to the last point, wherein the opponent now has to consider multiple charge arcs, and often has to choose between which combo charge he’d like to take.

4. Divide and conquer

Finally, once a flank has been punched through, because you have 3 units in the combat as opposed to one, all sorts of possibilities arise to fan out and abuse the fact that you’ve made a hole in his battle line. With potentially 2 or 3 heavy hitting units behind his battle line, even more opportunities arise to put the enemy in tough spots and force moves out of him.

Deployment

Most of the time, this list works best deployed in a refused flank formation. Because of the large number of non-committal drops, I find myself typically at the liberty of choosing which flank to assault. Take my match versus the Dwarves – His entire army was down, and I still had all of my heavy hitters to drop. I then could choose the flank to assault first.

This falls in line with the overall strategy of isolating targets and delaying the rest as well. If the rest of his army is tripping over itself trying to get to you, it frees up more time to focus on taking points on the other flank.

The only time I’d deviate from this formula is if the opponent was either turtling up on a board edge (In which case his hardest unit is probably on the flank) or if there is a glaring weak point in the middle of his battle line that I’m confident I can punch through in one round of combat, allowing me access to the flanks/rear of his army. This is risky business though, because failure likely means that you’ll be taking some counter-charges.

Magic

As I mentioned before, my magic phase has two goals; a primary and a secondary.

Primary: To support my infantry units and reduce the incoming damage, thus increasing their ability to grind out battles if need be. A great example of this is the combat in the game I played versus the chosen deathstar, where the “weak” flank was a unit of 40 marauders with a 5+ parry save. One unit of swordmasters was able to grind it out with that unit using Pha’s Protection and Regrowth to keep them chugging along.

Secondary: I wanted some reliable ranged damage, capable of helping the archers clean up pesky support units, as well as clean up remaining points, should my infantry units opt to reform instead of pursue a unit in order to get a positioning advantage.

The magic phase of this list is nothing flashy – very rarely is it spectacular, and this is by design! I like having a spell like dwellers available for the psychological effect, but typically my focus is on casting defensive spells, or spells that will ensure my units will accomplish their goal (for example, casting a pumped up timewarp in the game versus the Dwarves).

There’s plenty of redundancy in the magic phase as well – the banner makes sure that I’ll have a relatively reliable number of dice to work with; the Annullian Crystal does the same for the defensive magic phase. The spell selections from light and life work very well together. I won’t go too far into detail here, because I’ve already outlined this in another post found here

Conclusion

While this certainly isn’t what I would call a tournament level list, what it is is very fun to play as and against. Things like Teclis and magic immune hordes tend to leave opponents feeling slighted at the end of the match. I’ve found this list to be quite reliable, though and it has really forced me to consider positioning as an important facet of the game.

I’m looking forward to the opportunity to test it against some other armies, and see how it fares. The lists I’ve been playing against so far haven’t been “competitive” lists so to speak, and frankly I have no idea how it will perform versus them. I am, however, looking forward to finding out :D

Some battles I’d like to see in the future:

Daemons – particularly the guy at the local game shop that was incredibly arrogant about them
A proper gunline – I might be able to convince the Empire player in our gaming group to field one of these
Vampire Counts/Ogre Deathstars – We have both of these armies in our group as well, so I’ll see if I can line them up.


Anyway guys, thanks again for reading! Hope this helps you guys know what I’m going for when you’re reading my battle reports!

D

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:32 am 
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Hi Brewmaster!

You really spoil us with yet another great battle report and a very interesting analysis on top of it! You understand you will have to post something like that on regular (at least weekly :)) basis or be responsible of an erruption of frustration among your fellow Asur? Good, I am glad we achieved an understanding and I am happy to see more of your excellent reports :)

As to the battle and analysis, please, give me some time, as you addressed many interesting things in your posts and I would like to add to the discussion properly. :)

Thanks again!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Dwellers Below is a direct damage spell. Direct damage spells must be targetted in the front arc. So you should not have been able to Dweller the slayers on turn 4. Am I missing something?

40 shield warriors in horde formation? The Dwarf players are screaming at him! Same with the lack of Forging and Accuracy runes.
Since horded shield warriors are so weak in close combat, I would have gone for them sooner. Spears to take Steadfast plus something to hit them hard, particularly with your BSB outfighting his BSB (since Strollaz means the best he can have is 4+/5++ defense and strength 4), should let you win by enough to break them.


I think I disagree with you about casting Throne of Vines. Because you have an effective +2 over him, using a couple dice on Throne should usually pull 3 or more dice from him. That can give you a dice advantage for the rest of the phase. Or he ignores it and then you max-dice Dwellers.
It is somewhat rude to simply Dweller the Anvil, but once he strikes Ancient Power the gloves should come off.

On deployment, you can equalize his 5 drops with archers, Eagles and chariot, and then get your choice. I think I would have stacked the left flank, not the right, in order to get at the Anvil. Or I would have stacked the right flank even more, to make the slayers and Organ gun irrelevant.

Why deploy the spears wide initially? They are still deep enough for the Stone Thrower to squish badly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Ok, found out I cannot focus on other things as I keep coming back to thinking about your battle and anaylysis, so decided to reply first and easy my mind :)

Let's start first from the army of your opponent.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Runelord, Anvil of Doom, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking, Master Rune of Balance
Thane, BSB, Strollaz Rune, Defensive build
Thane, Oathstone, Great Weapon, 2+ armour save
Thane, Rune of Brotherhood, Great Weapon
Dragonslayer

40 x Dwarf Warriors, HW + S, Full Command
25 x Longbeards, GW, Full Command
30 x Trollslayers
20 x Miners, full command, steamdrill

Cannon, Rune of Reloading
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Reloading, 2x Rune of Penetration
Organ Gun

I am a little surprised to see only 3 war machines and so many characters in his army. It was already said but warriors do not like horde formation and are better used in deep units, providing rank bonus. Horde might be good for hammerers and even then the units is very expensive. And since you didn't mention Dragonslayer did he do nothing during the game?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Deployment
By virtue of having 4 low commitment drops versus his 5 drops total, I pretty much dictated this phase.

Indeed, it is a rare occasion when you can have such an advantage. Usually you are still more numerous unit-wise but here it was overwhelming. I wonder what a Dwarf player can do. Have a few small units, like thunderers or crossbowmen or even a gyrocopter to have some more drops? Does it really matter for them?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I then toss 6 dice at a powered up briona's timewarp, and what do you know? Irresistable Miscast. The spell encompasses the white lions and the southernmost unit of swordmasters, as well as all the troops in the middle. For his troubles, the wizard is reduced to level 0.

I think this situation describes how magic works against Dwarves very well. You need to force him to use his runes of spellbreaking for a few turns first and still need IF to get the spell through as very often he will have at least the same amount of dice you do. Unless he rolls poorly, he always has a chance to dispel your spells. It probably feels like you wasted 1/5 of your army points on magic that does not really work :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
This was probably the worst call I made this game - I should have just pursued with all of them, and been that much closer to the back line.

I didn't think it is a mistake first but when I thought more about it I agree. You still had enough units at your deployment to threaten his battle line (as you showed later) and your 3 elite units would have shorter distance to go for pesky war machines and that damn anvil. Ah well, one can be so wise after the battle is fought :) But as you said later in your army analysis, it is worth considering where you want your units to go using that extra move due to pursuit and/or combat reform.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Now, I have yet to look this up, but does a unit when it reforms actually need to be able to turn to the direction? Or can they just reposition themselves? If the latter is true, I really robbed myself here by not knowing the rules well enough.

It seems you have to keep the centre point of the unit in place and arrange the unit in new formation facing new direction as you please. I don't know if it means you could not make the reform you wanted.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
He shoots his cannon right down the front rank of my stupidly reformed white lions. I then remember that any cannon with a rune on it is treated as magical attacks, so I promptly fail my look out sir roll for my archmage. The cannon takes out 6 white lions, and I completely forget about the 4+ ward save I've given the archmage. He rolls to wound him successfully, then throws his D6 for how many wounds it does... 2! Still in it!

Haha, I would like to see your face if he killed your archmage and then you would find out about his ward save :) I guess that what might happen if you make some last minute additions to the army list :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
The other two units of elites double time it due to Briona's Timewarp, with the swordmasters coming around back and threatening the anvil and cannon, and the white lions threatening the rear of the unit of warriors.

I was always wondering how well this spell works. Do you think it changed anything this game?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Shooting manages to put the final wound on the pesky organ gun, and we move to his turn.

That was a good 3 turns of shooting :) I always find it hard to decide if I should risk shooting at war machines or not. I guess lack of other targets small enough or not engaged in combat made that decision easier. :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
My magic phase is 6 v 8, so I throw all my dice at dwellers. I roll irresistable, and it goes off on the trollslayers. 11 of them get dragged into the ground. Then I roll my miscast... snakeyes. Oh boy! I roll to see if the archmage gets sucked into the void, but he manages to stay safe. We then put down the large S10 template. It kills my remaining 5 white lions, but because I'm in the back of his unit, it takes out no less than 19 of the Warriors! Well that was unexpected lol!

A very sophisticated tactis I must say. Imagine what it would do for a sinlge unit if needs arises :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I charge in to his slayers with my chariot, and manage to rally my archmage. Rather than lose my swordmaster units to his runelord + guard, I just sit tight this turn. He can't possibly roll ancient power again, right?

Well, even if he failed to roll another ancient rune I would charge with swordmasters. You had a very good chance to kill his guard and runelord alone has only 2A hitting on 4+. At least you would stop it from casting more runes. But I guess you got that conclusion yourself too :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
My spearmen manage to take down a few miners, and my BSB throws down with his Thane. I put a wound on him as well. I can't remember the specifics of this combat, but I do remember that this turn he actually held, and he broke next turn. Either way, the result is the same.

That might be an interesting combat. You hit on 4+ with re-roll but wound on 5+ and he has 5+ save. He hits on 4+ and wounds on 2+ with no save. Of course you have many more attacks than he has. I think spears have more chances to win it but then not by large margin. Good you managed to break them on 2 turns however.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I came dangerously close to losing this match on turn 2. Once again, I need to get more in the habit of thinking about where my units go *after* a combat is complete. An overrun, in tandem with Briona's Timewarp would have had my units right in his runelord's face a turn earlier, and would have saved me from all of those punishing wrath & ruin's.

Ok, I see I have my answer for the question about usefulness of the spell here :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
He never did get to use Oath & Honour to create charge opportunities. I kept him busy with trying to slow down my units. It definitely is tricky, however, trying to imagine all of the possibilities with that rune - he could reform, then charge in the same turn!

I also wonder why didn't he supply himself with rune of challenge as it can also create nice opportunity for him. What is more, I am more concerned with movement rune from the anvil. In theory he can charge with warriors and miners at the same time and attack from front and rear.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I think in the future, I'll put more emphasis on shutting that anvil down. It was a tough choice, since that grudge thrower is pretty punishing too, but that anvil with ancient power is just so nasty versus our squishy elves.

Even if the anvil is not using the rune to kill your troops directly I would try to deal with it as soon as possible. Runelord, as tough as he is, might not be that hard to kill as a dwarven king.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
With my magic phase pretty much shut down, I really had to prioritize spells. You'll notice I didn't bother with Throne - not only would he have dispelled my casting attempt, but it would also be guaranteed not to last more than a turn. Instead, I settled for trying to force through the lesser effects (better than nothing!)

I agree but then I still have a feeling only IF can get through. Unless you take care of his Runelord/runesmith quickly enough. Not an easy task though.

Ok, that's it for a while. Will try to comment on your analysis later :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Hey guys!

Quote:
You really spoil us with yet another great battle report and a very interesting analysis on top of it! You understand you will have to post something like that on regular (at least weekly :)) basis or be responsible of an erruption of frustration among your fellow Asur? Good, I am glad we achieved an understanding and I am happy to see more of your excellent reports :)


Haha, I'll see what I can do! Tomorrow night is my battle with the chosen list from before, but this time it's for keeps. Expect another report up on Wednesday.

Quote:
Dwellers Below is a direct damage spell. Direct damage spells must be targetted in the front arc. So you should not have been able to Dweller the slayers on turn 4. Am I missing something?


You're not, but I am! Once again, thank you for pointing this out to me. This is simply my not reading the rules carefully enough - It does require the forward arc, but it does not require line of sight, and that's where my confusion came from.

Quote:
40 shield warriors in horde formation? The Dwarf players are screaming at him! Same with the lack of Forging and Accuracy runes.
Since horded shield warriors are so weak in close combat, I would have gone for them sooner. Spears to take Steadfast plus something to hit them hard, particularly with your BSB outfighting his BSB (since Strollaz means the best he can have is 4+/5++ defense and strength 4), should let you win by enough to break them.


You're completely right - I should have gone with my instinct on this one. Inwardly, I made the exact same analysis you did. I don't know the Dwarf army well enough, though, so I expected some sort of trick with that unit. Turns out I was wrong :P

Quote:
I think I disagree with you about casting Throne of Vines. Because you have an effective +2 over him, using a couple dice on Throne should usually pull 3 or more dice from him. That can give you a dice advantage for the rest of the phase. Or he ignores it and then you max-dice Dwellers.
It is somewhat rude to simply Dweller the Anvil, but once he strikes Ancient Power the gloves should come off.


I just relenquished the fact that with two dispel scrolls and a bonus 4 dice to dispel (plus one less casting for me) that the only spells I would be getting through typically were irresistable force spells. If anything that I didn't throw heavy dice at actually managed to go off, I'd chock it up to being a fluke, and I felt it was unlikely that I'd get a chance to use the benefits of throne by successfully casting another.

There's a couple Dwarf players in that group, though, so I'll definitely get another stab at playing them. I'll give that casting strategy a try next time!

Quote:
On deployment, you can equalize his 5 drops with archers, Eagles and chariot, and then get your choice. I think I would have stacked the left flank, not the right, in order to get at the Anvil. Or I would have stacked the right flank even more, to make the slayers and Organ gun irrelevant.


Again, this came down to my inexperience with that army - I didn't know about the miners till turn 2 when he rolled for them, so I figured he had some serious points stacked somewhere. Turns out I probably could have punched through those slayers pretty easily and made my way to the anvil, like you said. I didn't have a healthy respect for that anvil, though, till about turn 3 of this game haha!

Quote:
Why deploy the spears wide initially? They are still deep enough for the Stone Thrower to squish badly.


It was less about the grudge thrower and more about trying to dissuade him from combining the cannon and grudge thrower from taking some first turn pot-shots and killing all my ranks. Turns out he was more interested in the lions, though, so I reformed them pretty quickly.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:54 am 
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Thanks Brewmaster_D for your in depth reports and analysis. I would like you to elaborate a bit more for me on your second Lore choice. I've been thinking of trying out a list similar to yours but instead running HIGH Lore on my lvl 2. Do you think this Lore could work similar to your Light Lore? What were some of the Pro's and Con's for Light vs. High?

Thanks for the great br's it has helped me a lot as I am still learning this game.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Greetings!

Time to have a closer look at your army list analysis. It is already a great read and I like the fact you backed up your reasoning with some nice examples from your own battles. I am sure everybody, no matter how experienced, will benefit from your ound tactical advice. :) My comments below are more for myself so that I understand some things better but hopefully it will keep a very interesting discussion further.

Let's start with the list as a whole army:

Brewmaster_D wrote:
First, the list as it stands right now:

Archmage - Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Silver Wand, Lore of Life
Noble - BSB, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, GW
Mage - Annulian Crystal, Level 2, Light Magic

Archers x 12, Musician
Archers x 12
Spearmen x 35 - Full command

White Lion x 17 - Full command, Banner of Sorcery
Swordmasters x 14 - Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame
Swordmasters x 14
Dragon Princes x 5
Lion Chariot x 1

Great Eagles x 2

Total: 2400

When I move up to 2500, I fill out the White Lions to 20, give the Archmage a 4+ ward, and bump up the archers with the musician to 14

With two units of Swordmaster and focus on magic you could go for Saphery theme here. I understand usefulness of the regiements from other kingdoms but I always wonder if it would be possible to create an effective army from particular realm. So, if you considered a Saphery theme, what would be possible replacements for WL and LC? I guess a single unit of DP can easily be converted as some kind of upgraded Silver Helms.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
My list started as a concept – Target isolation. That is to say, what I wanted my list to accomplish is to systematically eliminate enemies by distracting and delaying other units, while my heavy hitters irrefutably win combat by combining their force.

Knowing what do you want to accomplish with your army is obviously a first step to victory. I think all elven armies need to use that concept though. Even if you rely on different approaches in some specific situations, even if you have more shooty army, you still need to win in close combat. And since our forces usually are not that good in battle of attrition, this is a way to go.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
What I love about the swordmasters is their ability to compress so much hitting power in so little space. Very little else in the game can boast the amount of pain these guys can dish out. Two units combined can make mincemeat of basically anything in the game without breaking a sweat.

And I really like the way you show how to make them do their job. :) Do you think, however, 14 is the only proper size for such unit? It looks great for me but what if you have a single unit and not enough points to buy another one? Would you go for 2 x 10, for example?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Next, I began to think about the threats to my list. If my goal was to have small, hard hitting units, there are several things to look out for:

1. Large steadfast hordes bogging them down
2. Ranged force, capable of capitalizing on their squishy nature
3. Units capable of stalling/redirecting or otherwise disrupting their ability to combine their arms
4. Enemy magic capable of reducing their effectiveness through various means

I would also add big monsters to the list of threats. Even Swordmasters can have a problem with big guys such as Sphinxes or Abominations (especially the unit without falming attacks) as high toughness, impact hits, thunderstomps (not to mention any special attacks). These units usually have higher movement rate and can deal a lot of damage to low T, low AS, infantry unit.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
First, the threats. To defeat steadfast reliably, I needed ranks. Cheapest way to get those, hands down, was spearmen. I don’t care how much damage they do – the elites will fill that role – I just need them to ensure the isolated target breaks during the window opened up by my delaying units. This concept has been covered in detail by many others on this board, so I won’t bore you with the details, but needless to say, 35 spearmen quickly found their way into the roster.

I haven't seen that happen in your games but I wonder what if your enemy reduced your spears to the number which is not beneficial for you anymore. I guess they are more focused on your 3 elite infantry units as they are much more dangerous thus generally leaving your spears alone. Still it is your only ranked unit in the army.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Second, I considered the ranged force threat. Swordmasters, with their T3 and 5+ AS, fold easily to shooting and magical pressure. To circumvent this, it becomes clear that defensive magic is needed to ensure that these guys get to their target, and should the plan go awry and they don’t manage to break the unit in a round, ideally they don’t get ground down through attrition. Originally I thought that the lore of shadows brought enough to the table defensively via. Miasma and Enfeebling foe, however after a few games I made the switch to Life – the swordmasters hit hard enough on their own!

We had a discussion about it before so I just add it for reminder. Your army definitely benefits from the defensive magic much more than from other lores. Sure, if you can make the enemy weaker or slower it works for you very well. However, being able to make your units tougher and replenish their casualties probably is a better way to go for multiple "small" elites. Somehow it also looks better when a glittering host of HE uses "good" magic lore. :)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Third, I considered the stalling and redirecting units the opponent might have. Typically these units are cheap, and cheap units are generally vulnerable to our S3 shooting. Enter the archers. Two units of these guys gives me options to shoot at two support units a turn, or focus their shots on one. They also have the benefit of filling up my core!

I know LSG has a shorter range but seeing more aggressive use of Archers recently (and doing that myself sometimes) I wonder of a 10 strong regiments instead would not be a good choice too. Sure, they cost more (so you can have less of them) but it really keeps me wondering. Any thoughts about them?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Finally, I needed a way to mitigate enemy magic. There is a plethora of spells out there that can wreak havoc on our dainty elves’ ability to dish out damage. I added in a level 2 with the annullian crystal to give me more options in the defensive magic phase, and help close the gap against powerful, magic using opponents. I decided on the crystal because much like my offensive phase, I wanted steady reliability.

What if you gave the crystal to the Archmage and didn't field 2 level at all? I remember from our previous discussion that second mage provides useful +3 to dispel attempt in case Archmage loses the concentration and that you have a nice spells selection in case one of your wizards is rendered useless for particular magic phase. But then it means you have more that 500 points in fickle magic users. Does it improve your magical abilities so much? I am also asking because I think you prefer more units rahter than characters in the army.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Once that was done, I wanted to build in redundancy to my list. If one of those units of swordmasters should fall, I still wanted to have the ability to accomplish my primary goal. The White Lions fill this role nicely – they can fill in for the swordmasters in a pinch, or they can take over for the spearmen as an anchor, should the spearmen not be available

I think they add something more to your army list. Spears and Swordmasters seem to be on the opposite ends and that is why they work so good together. WL combine these abilities but are more flexible on their own and somebody has to carry that banner of sorcery :) You would not gain as much with second unit of spears although it would add to your redundancy.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Finally, I included a BSB for obvious reasons, and 2 fast moving, hard hitting units in the form of the Dragon Princes and Lion Chariots. I love these guys because they put out what I call a huge “suppression zone”. There’s about 16” around both of these guys that makes the opponent really think twice about entering. Pair them up , and people tend to play very cautiously. So their roles double up – they can provide hitting power in tandem with charging units, or they can slow the enemy down by creating areas they don’t want to enter, hence “suppression zone”.

Why not second unit of DP? I have never used WL chariot and second DP unit looks very tempting in my opionion.

Ok, let's take another break :) But I promise to come back with some more rambling :)

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Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:23 am 
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Hey guys! Thanks so much for the well thought out responses!

Quote:
Thanks Brewmaster_D for your in depth reports and analysis. I would like you to elaborate a bit more for me on your second Lore choice. I've been thinking of trying out a list similar to yours but instead running HIGH Lore on my lvl 2. Do you think this Lore could work similar to your Light Lore? What were some of the Pro's and Con's for Light vs. High?


What this comes down to for me is the base spell, and overall utility. I wanted to for sure get a magic missile, and I love the versatility of Shem's. With the ability to power it up to S6, and the super long range and flaming attacks, I can quickly and easily deal with things like hydras and hellpits, or just clean up small support units. Because my archmage is in a combat unit, Awakening is not always an option.

Having said that High Magic is a very close second, with the lore having quite a few similarities with light - high overall utility and low casting values.

I find that with my list, however, the ability for the lore of light to extend its buffs to all units within 12" really benefits me, because my units are small and numerous. Having many small units reduces the effectiveness of single target buffs.

Quote:
With two units of Swordmaster and focus on magic you could go for Saphery theme here. I understand usefulness of the regiements from other kingdoms but I always wonder if it would be possible to create an effective army from particular realm. So, if you considered a Saphery theme, what would be possible replacements for WL and LC? I guess a single unit of DP can easily be converted as some kind of upgraded Silver Helms.


Interesting thought. I've never been one to "theme" an army per-se; my theme is high elves haha! But I suppose if I ever went to a tournament with this list, it's certainly something to think about.

Quote:
Knowing what do you want to accomplish with your army is obviously a first step to victory. I think all elven armies need to use that concept though. Even if you rely on different approaches in some specific situations, even if you have more shooty army, you still need to win in close combat. And since our forces usually are not that good in battle of attrition, this is a way to go.


I agree, this should be the focus of pretty much any capable High Elf general. Pretty much any other army in the game can grind out combats better than we can. The key is how you choose to facilitate it in your army. Whereas my list does it by forcing the opponent into accepting flank charges by presenting multiple charge arcs, others might do it by having one heavily weighted unit capable of accomplishing the goal on its own, or a shooting oriented army designed to weaken target units first.

Quote:
And I really like the way you show how to make them do their job. :) Do you think, however, 14 is the only proper size for such unit? It looks great for me but what if you have a single unit and not enough points to buy another one? Would you go for 2 x 10, for example?


My goal with my damage units is to put as much damage as I can into the frontage my opponent provides me with. Few troops are better at that than swordmasters. I like 14 because it allows for a good balance between relatively flexible maneuvering and damage output. Ten wide becomes unwieldy, and often the extra width will go to waste. I'd sooner spend the extra points on some more support troops - maybe another chariot to provide yet another mobile threat that can easily squeeze in to enemy frontage.

Quote:
I would also add big monsters to the list of threats. Even Swordmasters can have a problem with big guys such as Sphinxes or Abominations (especially the unit without falming attacks) as high toughness, impact hits, thunderstomps (not to mention any special attacks). These units usually have higher movement rate and can deal a lot of damage to low T, low AS, infantry unit.


The sphinx is definitely a threat - T8 is a tough nut to crack. My answer to that, usually, is high volume low strength attacks. At the end of the day, it only has 5 wounds, and has very little defense other than its high toughness. For things like Hydras and Hellpits, I like to introduce them to the powered up version of shem's burning gaze. D6 flaming S6 hits gives any regenerating baddies something to think about, and whatever is left over should be able to be taken care of by my elites. Steam Tanks on the other hand... I'd do my very best to deploy myself far away from it, and aim to distract it, or bog it down with my ranked unit. Or perhaps a courageous charge from my invincible archmage, provided I can be assured of no counter charges.

Quote:
I haven't seen that happen in your games but I wonder what if your enemy reduced your spears to the number which is not beneficial for you anymore. I guess they are more focused on your 3 elite infantry units as they are much more dangerous thus generally leaving your spears alone. Still it is your only ranked unit in the army.


In a pinch, the White Lions can reform to be 4 ranks deep. But you're right, I find that most of the attention goes at my elites, as typically they're being deployed in such a manner that they're threatening things pretty quickly. If they focus their firepower on the spearmen, it usually means that they're facing relatively full strength units of elites in combat, which when combined have the potential to make ranks pretty much irrelevant.

Quote:
We had a discussion about it before so I just add it for reminder. Your army definitely benefits from the defensive magic much more than from other lores. Sure, if you can make the enemy weaker or slower it works for you very well. However, being able to make your units tougher and replenish their casualties probably is a better way to go for multiple "small" elites. Somehow it also looks better when a glittering host of HE uses "good" magic lore. :)


I love the versatility our army provides, with a broad spectrum of troops ranging from heavy damage to heavy defense. As long as you have an overarching goal in mind, the High Elf army plays well with a variety of lores.

Quote:
I know LSG has a shorter range but seeing more aggressive use of Archers recently (and doing that myself sometimes) I wonder of a 10 strong regiments instead would not be a good choice too. Sure, they cost more (so you can have less of them) but it really keeps me wondering. Any thoughts about them?


I'd have to give some more thought on the seaguard. I do find myself sitting back quite a bit with my spearmen while my elites do most of the maneuvering, however I'm not sure how I feel about having that many more points sunk into a unit who's only real design is providing ranks. At the end of the day, they only have S3 shooting, and I think I'd rather have more boots on the field.

The two units of archers and spearmen represent not only more models, but 3 separate drops, which I use to my advantage in the deployment phase.

Quote:
What if you gave the crystal to the Archmage and didn't field 2 level at all? I remember from our previous discussion that second mage provides useful +3 to dispel attempt in case Archmage loses the concentration and that you have a nice spells selection in case one of your wizards is rendered useless for particular magic phase. But then it means you have more that 500 points in fickle magic users. Does it improve your magical abilities so much? I am also asking because I think you prefer more units rahter than characters in the army.


The winds are fickle, yes, but having two casters with lots of options means that I'm rarely in a situation where I have a magic phase that has no effect. Even the lowest possible phase for me typically sees me getting some sort of meaningful buff on my troops, and this is largely due to the built in redundancy. Take the crystal and put it on the Archmage and cut out the level 2, and all of a sudden the magic phase becomes much easier to shut down.

I also find myself using the light spells nearly as much as the life spells. Because the lore of light is so versatile, I really do get the mileage I want out of the points I invest in that character. It's the difference between having a versatile, flexible magic phase, and a relatively straightforward, unreliable, easy to predict and subsequently shut down magic phase.

Quote:
I think they add something more to your army list. Spears and Swordmasters seem to be on the opposite ends and that is why they work so good together. WL combine these abilities but are more flexible on their own and somebody has to carry that banner of sorcery :) You would not gain as much with second unit of spears although it would add to your redundancy.


I totally agree. I love the ability of the lions in this list to shift roles at the turn of a hat. I've used them successfully as anvils and as hammers. The archmage in there potentially giving them regeneration is just icing on the cake.

Quote:
Why not second unit of DP? I have never used WL chariot and second DP unit looks very tempting in my opionion.


This one was a tough decision. If you go back in the thread, I came to this exact conclusion, even going as far as playing a game or two with 2 units of DP's. In the end it came down to one thing: frontage. I can fit that chariot in to just about any combat, where the Princes would struggle to get more than one or two in base contact.

It also benefits greatly from the lore of life - keep it near the archmage, and it can take wounds and gain them back and never lose combat effectiveness.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:25 am 
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The Men of the North

Alright, round one is complete! As you guys will recall, my first matchup was versus the chosen army list that took the first Mighty Empires Campaign. No messing around this time - the lands of the Asur are at stake. I set out, before this game started, to do my very best to avoid the chosen in this game.

Warriors of Chaos

Chaos Sorceror Lord - Chaos Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Dispel Scroll Lore of Shadows
Chaos Exhalted Champion - BSB, Armour of Morrsleib, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon

40 Marauders, Hand Weapon + Shield, Full Command, Mark of Tzeentch
24 Chaos Warriors, Halbreds, Banner of Eternal Rage, Mark of Tzeentch, Full Command
5 Chaos Warhounds
5 Chaos Warhounds

18 Chaos Chosen, Full Command, Great Weapons, Wailing Banner, Favour of the Gods, Mark of Tzeentch
Chaos Chariot
5 Chaos Knights

Warshrine
Warshrine

My spells are:
Archmage: Dwellers, Throne, Earthblood, Regrowth, Flesh to Stone
Mage: Shem's, Timewarp

His are:
Sorceror Lord: Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Withering, Mindrazor

Deployment

Image

In our last game, my opponent lost a good number of turns with his unit of Chaos Warriors due to deploying them too far on the flank. I knew I'd get no such advantage this game, so I opted for a gambit style of deployment. The Dragon Princes went down early, and not with the intention of fooling my opponent. Rather, they went down on that flank in order to provide me with a mobile threat that my opponent couldn't ignore, but also couldn't afford to devote an entire combat unit to. This put him in a tough position - he basically had to accept that I'd get free access to the back of his line, unless he decided to devote his knights to counter them.

It became very apparent that his deployment was going to be a hard center - not much spacing or filler between his blocks, with enough room for his shrines to peek through should they be needed. I decided to focus on the Western flank - if I could take the Warriors early with my elites, he'd have a tough time recouping enough points to win.

I weighted the Western flank with my elites, and we proceeded to the first turn. He wins the roll to go first.

Turn 1

Warriors of Chaos

Image

The Chosen roll +1A on the Eye of the Gods for their opening gift.

Is it just me, or do most chaos first turns look the same? :P Full steam ahead for most of his troops, with the knights moving a bit conservatively to avoid a charge from the Dragon Princes.

Magic is 7 v 8 (Crystal + Channel). He starts with an Enfeebling Foe on the lions, which goes off irresistably for -3S. The magical feedback puts a wound on his Sorceror Lord, and drains the rest of his dice.

His chosen receive Armour save and Magic Resistance for their gifts.

High Elves

Image

The ranged game is mine, so I don't see a need for aggressive movement. I declare a charge with my swordmasters on the Western flank on his hounds, but they roll a 3 for their charge.

My gambit pays off, and the Princes begin their maneuver to the back of his lines. I reposition my Eagles, and move on to the magic phase.

Magic is 9 v 3. I start off with a Throne of Vines, which he allows. I immediately make him pay for it by throwing 6 dice at Dwellers on his Warriors. I intend to soften them up before engaging them with my infantry. He is unable to dispel it, and saves his scroll - I find that people that field lists like this, where they have many points invested into one important unit, they tend to conserve their resources for protecting that unit.

Dwellers kills 5 warriors, and my archers manage to kill 3 of his dogs, panicing the rest of them.


Turn 2


Warriors

Image

His chariot fails a long charge (no difficult terrain tests failed yet), and moves forward 4 inches. The rest of his army moves up aggressively once again. On the eastern front, his dogs manage to rally, and turn to face my Dragon Princes (If he had tried to redirect here with their angle, I would have just wheeled and rode past him).

Magic is 5 v 7 (Crystal and another channel for me) - He starts with a miasma, which I dispel. He then attempts a withering on 3 dice, but rolls a 1,1 and 2. I use my remaining dice to dispel Enfeebling Foe on my White Lions

He rerolls both Warshrine blessings and gets +Strength and + Leadership

High Elves

Image

I charge the same hounds with my swordmasters, and make it this time. My Dragon Princes also charge the Warhounds on the eastern front, since the angle isn't terrible for lining up some later rear charges.

The first heroic eagle flies up to redirect the frothy mouthed chosen. It's actually pretty amazing these guys keep following me to war, considering how I treat them...

Magic is 11 v 7. His dice were drained last turn, so throne is still up. I start with an Earthblood, to discourage any courageous charges from the warriors. He allows this to go. I then put a Shem's Burning Gaze on his chariot, which he allows (powered up). It only puts a single wound on it. Finally, I throw my remaining dice at Timewarp aura, and cast it irresistably. The miscast causes me to take a wound on both my mages due to magical feedback, but most of my combat blocks are at double movement next turn and an additional attack.

Shooting kills a few marauders.

In combat, the Swordmasters kill and overrun the dogs, bringing them out of the charge arc of the approaching units. The Dragon Princes kill the dogs, and overrun a mighty 11".

Turn 3

Warriors


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The Chosen charge the eagle that has landed in front of them, and the Warriors charge the White Lions, but fail. His chariot manages to charge the swordmasters, and the rest of his troops advance. The Chaos Knights opt to move down the flank (They're actually a bit farther right, making a charge unlikely. It's tough to get things exactly right from cellphone pictures :P)

Magic is 10 v 7 - He throws 3 dice at enfeebling foe, and once again fails to meet the casting value! He uses the rest of his dice to dispel Throne of Vines.

He switches the Leadership roll on his chosen and... Insanity! The Chosen are stupid for the rest of the game! Hah!

The chariot rolls well for it's impact hits, and puts 5 wounds on the swordmasters. The swordmasters only manage 2 wounds in return (awesome armour saves on his part) and his return attacks leaves me with 6 models left in the unit. They hold.

High Elves

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Not quite the combo charge I'd been hoping (I wanted the swordmasters in there too, after the chariot combat, but that thing wouldn't die!), but I decided I didn't have time to wait and charged with both the white lions and the Lion chariot into the unit of Warriors.

The swordmasters do a big 20" movement around the back of the woods to expose the back of his line, and the Dragon Princes loop around as well. The second eagle moves up to provide more distraction for the chosen. My Eastern-most unit of Archers pivots to keep themselves in his knights front arc, yet still put him off the board if he overruns, providing a nice speed bump.

Magic is 10 v 5 - I throw another 3 dice at throne of vines, which he allows. He scrolls my attempt at flesh to stone, and I throw the remaining 4 dice at a single target timewarp. He fails to dispel it.

In combat, the Swordmasters finish off the last wound on the chariot, and stay facing the middle.

The Timewarped White Lions and the Lion Chariot together do 14 wounds. He manages to kill 5 lions himself, and his troops break. I pursue with the lion chariot and catch him, while the White Lions reform to face the center.

Turn 4

Warriors of Chaos


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I realize my mistake pretty quickly in his turn - I forgot to reform the spearmen to face the incoming marauder charge, opening up a flank charge opportunity. They're far enough away, however, that fleeing is an option. He redirects into the archers, and his knights likewise charge the other unit of archers. Both stand and shoot. His warshrine can also just see a corner of my lion chariot and charges into its flank.

Magic is 11 v 7 - Boxcars! He starts with an enfeebling foe, which I dispel. He then successfully casts miasma on my Dragon Princes, slowing them down by 1 movement. He then fails to meet the casting value for his mindrazor, and fails to dispel throne with his remaining two dice. Magic really isn't agreeing with him this game!

He exchanges his +1S blessing on his chosen, and once again rolls Insanity! HAH!

His warshrine puts a wound on my chariot, and takes none in return. The chariot holds on the nearby general's leadership.

Both the marauders and the knights destroy their targets, and reform to face the spearmen.

High Elves

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My Dragon Princes charge into the flank of the Warshrine. The White Lions, still under the effect of Timewarp, reform and move (arrow is erroneously red) 10" to the north, out of the front arc of the chosen.

My spearmen rally, and the northern unit of swordmasters continue looping around.

Magic is 12 v 6 (not boxcars, from the banner :P) - I start by putting up a Throne of Vines, which he allows. I put a regrowth on my swordmasters, bringing back 5, then irresistably put Flesh to Stone on my spearmen, with throne protecting me from the miscast. No other spells go through - he was waiting to dispel flesh in this turn, so he still had full dispel dice left. I restore the wound on the chariot with lifebloom.

In combat, the dragon princes manage a measly 1 wound on the warshrine, and the lion chariot whiffs. Fortunately, so does he, but he manages to hold.


Turn 5

Warriors


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His Marauders and Knights charge in on my spearmen, but the chosen prevents the marauders from shuffling over more than halfway down the unit (again, picture fail)

His chosen reform to face the Northern front, since those combats are likely to wrap up and leave him vulnerable to rear charges.

Magic is 5 v 5, and he throws them all at a mindrazor on his marauders, irresistably.

In combat, the spears manage to take down a knight (I was blown away too) and 4 marauders. He kills 3 Toughness 7 spears in return and he manages to hold with both units.

High Elves

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I took one look at the scenario playing out, and knew what had to be done. I move my level 2 Mage dead center between the two battle fronts.

The swordmasters charge the remaining Warshrine, and the white lions do an about face (not represented). The southern unit of Swordmasters charges in against the marauders.

Magic is 8 v 5 - I start with a flesh to stone on the spearmen again, but he dispels it. I throw the remaining 6 dice at Timewarp aura, and manage to just meet the casting cost! The picture is relatively accurate at this point - it covers most of my army.

In the south, the swordmasters and spears manage to kill 15 of his troops, including one knight. They take 7 wounds in return, lacking the protection of flesh to stone, but it isn't enough - he breaks, and is run down by the spearmen. The swordmasters reform to face north.

In the North, the Dragon Princes and Chariot finally manage to take down the Warshrine. They reform to face south. In the north, the swordmasters and Noble only manage to put 3 wounds on the Warshrine, and it holds.

At this point we call the game - his chosen couldn't take enough points in one turn to avoid the massacre.

Result: Massacre for the High Elves



Final Thoughts:

Well, I'm off to a great start in this new campaign! This match was tough for my opponent because his Magic phase really didn't agree with him.

This game really solidified in my mind that I fear ranged assaults much, much more than nasty combat units. With two eagles on hand, and nothing to neutralize them with, there really isn't much that can be done to stop them from stringing along a nasty unit like those chosen for the entire game. Incidentally, I think he's coming to the same realization that I did about lore of Shadows - it's greatly powerful at manipulating combats, but in low/no shooting lists, the lack of a reliable magic missile is sorely missed!

Magic was just spectacular for me, as it normally is. When I started to play with the Life/Light combination with this list, I had one of those moments where it just clicked. The two lores combined provide answers to so many things - I can't say I'm ever disappointed with my spell rolls on the lore of light. It almost makes me want to write an all light list! RogueSun definitely has the right idea here - white lions with the light buffs are a sight to behold.

Even without the 3+ ward save, I still think it was a prudent decision to avoid the chosen this game. With 3 attacks each at WS 6, S6, I had to be positive I could line up plenty of force to take that unit down, and the opportunity just didn't arise until later in the game.

My next matchup is going to be against the Tomb Kings next Tuesday. Looking forward to this match, because the guy that plays them has had a few matches with his army in between, and has really started to get a feel for how they operate with this new book. Should be a good challenge!

Anyway guys, thanks for reading!

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
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