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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:08 pm 
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Dragon Armour gives a 2+ ward against flaming attacks, I don't think acid breath attacks would count (unless throgg breathes fire?)

Or I could be wrong <.<


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:11 pm 
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I suggest playing those 5 games (or 4 now) with Silver Wand, so you have the default spell. Even if you don't spend the 20 free points on anything. I think you will really like it, partly because it actually lasts until your next magic phase, unlike the other two remains in play hexes. It is really awesome against Dark Elves, where the Ws and I part is great, and reducing movement on massive elite infantry blocks (think chosen) can be game changing when done early.

Dragon armour works against flaming attacks AND all breath weapons.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:56 pm 
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As Dabber pointed out, Dragon Armour does indeed Ward against Breath Weapons. It's clearly stated in the description and it was recently FAQ'd to a 2+ ward instead of immunity.

Point about Wand taken. I will take that advice, however there is no point in not spending the last 20 points. I was thinking Bladelord with something cheap, maybe Ironcurse Icon. What do you suggest?

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:55 pm 
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dabber wrote:
I think you will really like it, partly because it actually lasts until your next magic phase, unlike the other two remains in play hexes. It is really awesome against Dark Elves, where the Ws and I part is great, and reducing movement on massive elite infantry blocks (think chosen) can be game changing when done early.

Agree completely and I think you want this spell as one of four with Withering, Pit and Okkam's.

Even limiting myself to casting on four dice (High Magic of course!) I miscast too often for my liking. Losing the Archmage early can easily cost you the game. Maybe the spell selection is more important but I think Earthing Rod has a lot going for it, especially if you need to six-dice Okkam's for example. Shadow is not the worst Lore for just rolling four selection dice at.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Quote:
As Dabber pointed out, Dragon Armour does indeed Ward against Breath Weapons. It's clearly stated in the description and it was recently FAQ'd to a 2+ ward instead of immunity.


I had it stuck in my head that it was just flaming attacks. Funny the little things you can miss, even though you've looked at it a thousand times. Regardless, this is great news for me, since the Chaos players in my group *love* Throgg and stream of corruption. mwahahaha.

In light of this, let me rephrase my comment from earlier: I'm suprised the Chaos player didn't make more of an effort to get throgg in combat with the silver helms with the lord in it. With 5 wounds and regeneration, there is no way your lord could kill him in one round of combat, and between copious vomit and his one time breath weapon, it's a pretty much guaranteed kill of your lord.

Looking forward to your next report!

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
In light of this, let me rephrase my comment from earlier: I'm suprised the Chaos player didn't make more of an effort to get throgg in combat with the silver helms with the lord in it. With 5 wounds and regeneration, there is no way your lord could kill him in one round of combat, and between copious vomit and his one time breath weapon, it's a pretty much guaranteed kill of your lord.


His lord has dragon armor too! Haha.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:51 pm 
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His lord has dragon armor too! Haha.


Bwahaha. Ok, I'll shut up now!

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:16 pm 
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@ SpellArcher - High Magic doesn't require spell selection, in my opinion. You will always get a decent range of spells. Because of this, I believe Earthing Rod is definitely worth a shot!

@ Brewmaster_D - how would you deploy Throgg to counter my Prince in this game? With as many drops as I have, you'll almost always be out-deployed. I know very well that my Prince will not be wanting to go head-to-head against Trolls, because of this I do what I can to keep him out of it. Deployment-wise, this isn't too hard. Movement-wise, Trolls aren't fast enough to dictate cavalry - especially not when I have Eagles.

And of course my Prince sports Dragon Armour. Why would he not? ;)

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:05 pm 
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You guys keep posting about the Earthing Rod. Maybe it is a language/translation issue and you mean the same thing, but isn't the Staff of Solidity in the HE army book strictly superior to the Grounding Rod in the BRB? I'm not sure why you would pick the one from the BRB when the HE army book one is better.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:28 pm 
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The staff of solidity is always used on your first miscast, before you roll on the miscast table. When you have it, you simply skip the roll the first time you miscast.

With the earthing rod, each time you miscast, you roll on the table. If you roll something awful, then you can activate the earthing rod and re-roll.

With the staff of solidity, you don't get to see how bad the miscast would be. You might be negating an irrelevant 7. With the earthing rod, you can save the item until the miscast table makes it debilitating, and then hope for a less bad result.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:02 pm 
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@ Brewmaster_D - how would you deploy Throgg to counter my Prince in this game? With as many drops as I have, you'll almost always be out-deployed. I know very well that my Prince will not be wanting to go head-to-head against Trolls, because of this I do what I can to keep him out of it. Deployment-wise, this isn't too hard. Movement-wise, Trolls aren't fast enough to dictate cavalry - especially not when I have Eagles.


Well, it's a tough call because by my math you wouldn't have even been done putting down your non-committal drops by the time he had his entire army on the table. Having said that, you mention that your opponent has played your list before, and as such knows that you have the upper hand in movement no matter what. In a situation where I was deploying blind like that, I would have kept my army much closer together. Not sure why he spread out so much, even putting a building between the Throgg trolls and the rest of his army.

I'd have probably put the unit of trolls right next to the warriors, and I'd have tried to deploy everything shifted over right, so that the army was more compact, and a much better chance of Throgg seeing those Silver Helms. Also increases the chances that he gets in a combat together with the warriors, in which case he isn't limited by challenging, and can puke the knights into non-existence.

Vomit Breath aside, his copious vomit still has a good chance of killing that prince, which is a very scary thing!

You did great at nullifying that situation with your deployment though. As I'm sure you can tell from my article, I love the high elf deployment phase, for the exact reasons you state!

Would have loved to have seen how this game would go down with that archmage still in play, though. One pit of shades on those trolls would have made this an entirely different game.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Ah, I see. So the Staff of solidity is not strictly better in all circumstances. Nevertheless, the only time I have actually seen the Earthing Rod used in game, the player rolled a worse result (lose levels -> sucked into void). 1/3 of the results on the miscast chart are pretty heinous, so a re-roll has a 1/3 chance of being effectively wasted. I would still probably choose solidity over grounding myself.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Years back, probably 6th edition, I tried running with the Staff of Solidity for a while. I found that I rarely miscast exactly once in a game. Either I would not miscast at all during the game, or I would miscast multiple times. I concluded that the Staff of Solidity did not provide protection, atleast not at a practical level. The earthing rod improves upon that by being available for the BAD miscast. Of course, earthing rod suffers a significant downside of often not fixing the problem becasue you roll an equally bad or worse result.

My opinion is that neither is worthwhile. If making a custom list to face WoC, I might take Staff of Solidity, but otherwise I would skip them both.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@ SpellArcher - High Magic doesn't require spell selection, in my opinion. You will always get a decent range of spells. Because of this, I believe Earthing Rod is definitely worth a shot!

I'm not sure one way or the other. On the one hand I think you need damage spells to put pressure on the enemy (though Life may be an exception to this). With High that's Flames, Fury and possibly Curse. With a lvl4 you're reasonably sure of getting two of these. With a Lvl3 though you could easily be left with Fury or Curse and I'm not sure that's enough. Spells like Vaul's, Courage, Drain and to a lesser extent Shield are of limited use sometimes, whereas you almost always want to Flame something! I should just test it and see how it goes I guess.

It strikes me that Earthing Rod would go well with a Ward save as you're looking to suck up those high strength hits which make up almost 2/3 of the table. Obviously it is there to re-roll a 2-4 result. On a level 4 with High Magic I might even be tempted to swallow a 10-12 roll as he'd be +3 to dispel and have three spells left if he lost a couple of levels. Probably not though, the odds of rolling the worse 2-4 are only 1-in-6 and he only has a 50% chance of dying even after that.

I'm just not sure if it is a good pick but there's a case for it. How do you deal with the Puppet for example by other means?

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:52 pm 
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As for Earthing Rod vs Staff of Solidity, I'd say the Rod is probably better. You can often suck up various results but when it lands on a 2-4 you need something else! Regardless I'm way too fond of spell selection to go for either.

SpellArcher wrote:
I'm just not sure if it is a good pick but there's a case for it. How do you deal with the Puppet for example by other means?


Agreed. High Magic must be one of the best lores to do it with.

As for Puppet, I see 3 options:
- Go Life. Throne is a saviour.
- Choose a 3+3+3 lore / strategy to minimize risk, maybe also get Staff. High and Light are good here, as is Life to be honest.
- Field Teclis.

We need reliability. Miscasts ruin that. The fact that we have so few ways to deal with it just means we're either bound to follow a narrow path (for most of us: Life) or 'live life on the edge' - especially against Puppet. In this version that item is pretty much a no-brainer if the Chaos player fields a Lord mage.

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:37 am 
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I think the difference between the rod and the staff are personal preference.

The staff of solidity makes sure that you don't lose your mage turn 1, spell 1. The odds you play with the staff of solidity are that you wont miscast twice in your first two turns (when I believe you make the biggest impact). This is a reasonable assumption. Also, it stops your mage from suffering from miscast altering items (like the puppet or the tricksters pendant).

With the earthing rod, you play the dice more. You work on the assumption that you can handle all miscast results except being sucked into the void. As others have mentioned, there is always the possibility that the new result is the same or worse as the old result was. And of course, you are vulnerable to items that alter miscasts.

The other side of the rod is of course that it potentially lasts longer. Remember, you can still miscast spell 1, turn 1 and roll a 2. However, you get to see what you are protecting your mage from. So while you have a higher chance of saving your mage in later turns of the game, I think you have a lower chance of keeping him alive in the first 2 turns of the game.

It's all about dice.

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 10:01 am 
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Ok so you're facing the Puppet. First miscast you can ignore with the Staff. Second and subsequent are very, very dangerous. Curu's game threw up a good example as he rolled a 7. I would not have use the Rod. He died on a 1-in-6 chance which is just bad luck, it's the kind of risk you have to ride here. A 6 is a more difficult decision, that's a 1-in-3, you probably use the Rod. 2-5 is 50%, you use the Rod.

Rolling limited dice against the Puppet looks sensible but then we won't be getting the big spells off. Of course Throne is great but I guess he dispels it and then you get to play Chosen vs Dwellers vs Puppet.

Hmm...maybe not an all-comers solution but 6-die Ring of Corin?

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:59 pm 
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An excellent summary, Rod! I believe we were all forgetting the fact that magic tends to be most powerful and of most importance early in the game.

SpellArcher wrote:
Rolling limited dice against the Puppet looks sensible but then we won't be getting the big spells off. Of course Throne is great but I guess he dispels it and then you get to play Chosen vs Dwellers vs Puppet.


Typical magic phase: you get 9 vs 5 dispel dice. Throw 4 @ Throne, leaving 5. If he dispels it, you can still 5-dice Throne (~18% chance of IF) or 2-dice Flesh + 3-dice Regrowth. For a single magic phase, I'd say this is pretty good! If you really need to get Dwellers off, the 18-25% chance of miscasting isn't really that big. The trouble is having it over you ALL THE TIME with every cast. Going Life however allows you to flexibly swap to 2 and 3-dice casts, where the chance of IF is minimal, if your opponent decides to dispel throne all the time.

Remember, you're not committing that much to magic so don't expect to be game-breaking in every single phase. Assuming you roll with a Life Archmage, you can also have a lvl 1 metal with solidity / earthing rod as backup. The possibility of 6-dicing Searing Doom should leave him more hesitant to always dispelling throne, depending a little upon what he has of course.

I guess against puppet, signature spells - and thus Silver Wand - are really valuable, as these are generally easy to cast, reducing your chance of IF.

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:33 pm 
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High Magic is nice against a puppet - Low dice needed until you're in range of his mage, then BAM! Max dice Vauls to knock out the pupet. Even if you IF, the spell takes out the puppet before the miscast. But is there any reason why WOC always end up with a puppet, but HE's tend to discount the Orb of the Trickster?

I think ours is slightly discounted, and not quite as evil as the puppet.


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Baeronvonbleat wrote:
High Magic is nice against a puppet - Low dice needed until you're in range of his mage, then BAM! Max dice Vauls to knock out the pupet. Even if you IF, the spell takes out the puppet before the miscast.

Yes I was wondering about that! We're back to spell selection to make sure we get Vaul's aren't we? Of course there are lots of other juicy items to unmake also...

Baeronvonbleat wrote:
But is there any reason why WOC always end up with a puppet, but HE's tend to discount the Orb of the Trickster?

I think the ability of the Puppet to choose how to modify the roll is more dangerous. Plus it can be used defensively too.

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 6:38 am 
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*Taking names and making notes*

Interesting discussion you're having here. I'm the next victim, i.e the Wood Elf player and I thought I'd better explain the reasoning behind the Scroll of Shielding/Rhymers harp.

Rhymers harp gives me one very durable archer unit that is also a bunker for my characters. The combination of ward, healing from life lore, BSB and Ld9 makes the unit pretty hard to take down when hiding behind a wall of treekin. It also provides all the forest spirits with much needed psycological backbone. There's a lot of difference between Ld8 and Ld9 w/reroll. Finally, the unit can take on threats that would kill ten-elf archer units, starting at +3 CR and having a guaranteed, and pretty painful stand and shoot.

The scroll of shielding gives me a 2+ ward (5++3) against one super-spell, as long as the spell doesn't ignore ward saves. In ETC rules, all characters get look out sir versus super spells (dwellers, gateway, dreaded thirteen etc). In that case, having two characters in one unit is less of a risk. Also, a 2+ ward is better than a dispel scroll when the enemy mage rolls IF, which happens pretty often when someone really want's to get a spell off.

Yes, I'm practicing for a turney. The "control group" is four units of ten archers that have been performing well in ten or so games. Their downside is vulnerability. Concentrated fire kills them one by one, and it's too easy to kill the whole unit and then the mage or BSB hiding inside.

I will just have to see how it goes, at the moment I need more data :)


Now, better get back to reading. This cavalry list looks scary..

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:56 am 
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rusty wrote:
Rhymers harp gives me one very durable archer unit that is also a bunker for my characters. The combination of ward, healing from life lore, BSB and Ld9 makes the unit pretty hard to take down when hiding behind a wall of treekin. It also provides all the forest spirits with much needed psycological backbone. There's a lot of difference between Ld8 and Ld9 w/reroll. Finally, the unit can take on threats that would kill ten-elf archer units, starting at +3 CR and having a guaranteed, and pretty painful stand and shoot.

I like the idea. Is the Stand and Shoot so crucial though? I'd be tempted to put the flaming banner on the unit and equipt the BSB differently.

rusty wrote:
The scroll of shielding gives me a 2+ ward (5++3)

My understanding is that the only Ward save that stacks is the Mark of Tzeentch. You could always put MR on your BSB to achieve the same effect, though he is vulnerable in combat.

rusty wrote:
This cavalry list looks scary..

I always found heavy cavalry a challenge with my Wood Elves. This was before Treekin though!

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:27 am 
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As for destructiveness, I believe Trickster's pendant is equally good as Puppet. However, Puppet also helps your own side when miscasting - invaluable! For magic defense, we simply have more reliable items - like Crystal, Dispel Scroll or Sigil.

As for the Wood Elf list - the Glade Guard bunker is a really juicy target. However, with so many forest spirits in the way I doubt they'll be the easiest thing to reach. Between shadow buffs and my melee units, I'm hoping I can deal with the trees first. A combo-charge from any of my 2 combat units should see any of his units go down, save for Lore of Life buffs. Then there's the potential of Dwellers to look out for.

The good thing here is that I have superior movement. As such, I also have an edge with regards to magic - I can usually choose my fights and if he manages to severely buff up one of his units I can probably choose to simply ignore it.

I'm wondering what to do with all my ranged guys though. I suppose I could try to thin out his big bunker unit because I lack better targets. Thoughts?

Also - I realize Loec doesn't have a clear target here so I suppose I'll just save it for a critical round of combat. About your Ward rusty, I don't believe it stacks either. Neither of them are Magical Resistance based and there's nothing in either description of stackability. In my opinion, especially for the tournament, you should consider the Divination Orb. It really adds to your defense when needing it against big spells, and how many people really use 3+3+3 casting strategies?

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:36 pm 
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I'd probably go for a Dispel Scroll with the Harp as a good all-round pick.

On reflection I can't see a good way of combining MR with protection on the BSB. I'd consider Silvered Steel, he'll need it against anything good.

Yeah, I'd go for the Archers Curu!

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:13 pm 
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rusty wrote:
The scroll of shielding gives me a 2+ ward (5++3) against one super-spell, as long as the spell doesn't ignore ward saves
I'm with spellarcher - only magic resistance stacks, and this isn't magic resistance.

rusty wrote:
Also, a 2+ ward is better than a dispel scroll when the enemy mage rolls IF
You cannot use the scroll against IF. Main FAQ, page 5, right column.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:50 pm 
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I try not to clutter up Olannon's thread anymore with my army, but thanks a lot for clearing that up! My original combo was Unicorn (MR2) and Scroll of shielding in a Treekin unit, and then I mixed the rules when I reorganized the army.

Good point on the divination orb. I might try that instead.

to answer the stand-and-shoot question: In only one out of four games with this unit has anyone reached it. That was the remains of 30 white lions. The banner was good then, as it gave me another round of 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound. I'm considering dropping it for something that assumes the unit will never see combat.

And Treekin or no, I'm still worried about the cavalry hammers. Flaming dragon princes at full strength w/ strength potion can probably break through one treekin unit easily if I'm unable to stoneskin it. And as you say, you have the manouverability advantage. I don't consider "dwellering dragon princes" a strategy as much as a gamble, although it certainly works.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Btw: Does Banner of eternal flame make heroes armed with magic weapons flaming? I.e would your prince have S7 flaming, magical attacks if he joined the dragon princes? Would a Hail of Doom arrow shot from a unit with the flaming banner become flaming, S4, magical arrows?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Yeah I thought about the Unicorn but it can't go in the Archers I guess?

The flame banner does not work on magic weapons.

Have you considered taking an eagle or two?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
SpellArcher wrote:
The flame banner does not work on magic weapons.

*Sigh of relief*.
Correct. Unicorns are forest spirits, so can't go in archers. As for eagles, I don't have room with two treemen in the list. Also, the trees don't appreciate the birds shitting in their canopy.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:44 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 13038
Location: Otherworld
I ask because to us, Eagles are golden, we love them.

Wood Elf players do not seem to rate them as highly for some reason.

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A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
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