Vs Ogres - input appreciated

[Curu Olannon]

Looks like my next game is against Ogres. My list can, as usual, be found here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318 and I'm not going to change anything as it's an all-comers. Again, I know Life is probably sub-optimal but I won't even change the Lore.

Basically I've never fought Ogres. I have their army book available and I'm going to look through it but any pointers on what to especially look out for would be nice. My opponent said his list includes quite a bit of magic. Perhaps this will be the game where I'll hear Seredain's voice echoing 'dispel scroll'? ^^

Regards,
~Olannon

[dabber]

Remember that you can dispel their buff spells like Remains in Play spells in YOUR magic phase. So if you aren't in combat when they cast it, you can ignore the spell and dispel it in your turn.

The Tyrant will likely chop your Prince to bits. You need to hurt the Tyrant with something else first. Or have Toughness 7.

Against a big ogre unit, Dwellers is incredibly effective. One test removes a 3 wound model costing 48 points (Ironguts).

Don't be overly afraid of Leadbelchers. They have to roll to hit and risk misfires, so their average damage is not great. They are well worth shooting, but do not let the perceived threat of their shooting change your tactics much.

[Prince of Spires]

From what I know of Ogres, the disspell scroll is fairly useless against them. The Ogre magic system is unique and hard to compare with other systems. The lore doesn't have an uber no 6 spell that wipes out half your army.

Basically, the idea of the lore is a lot of low casting cost magic spell spamming. all of their casters know all of their lore. The whole lore is 3+ to cast for the first time it is cast, add 4 for each next cast(by a different caster). The lores strengths is in buffing their units (+1 S / T, regen etc), and a lot of their buffs stack. So if you don't look out, you can face T7 Ogres...

Add in to this that they have an item that lets them immediatly add a PD to their roll and you have a very strong magic phase. So a magic phase goes like this. Cast with Hero lvl caster on 1 dice until he fails (basically rolls below 3), cast with lord lvl caster with 1 dice until he fails, use the item and continue casting with 2PD. You should see why a scroll is pretty useless in this instance.

Another thing to point out is that most of their spells are similar to RiP, with the following exceptions: multiple versions of the same spell by the same caster can be in play at the same time (cast in 2 different turns) and if you want to disspell them in a following turn, they are 7+ to disspel.

Other things of note:
-scrap launcher: Large template artillery which is S2, has KB and is also a chariot
-Tyrant: A tooled up tyrant is capable of taking down most things in the game. I think he can give most monsters a run for their money.
-They are low I. You should get rerolls against pretty much anything
-They are expensive: low body count, except for gnoblars who are crap and are only used to hold up units.
-Ignore leadbelchers: These are ogres holding a cannon, and are usually taken to treathen a flank. Statistically I think they do almost as much damage to themselves as to their opponent (each rolls an artillery dice, misfire results are horrible) and they can only shoot once, unless they stand still for a turn to reload. Their value is more psychological than anything else. Of course, on the off chance they do roll 4*10 shots, they work wonders.

Hope this helps. Not so much tactics as a few bits and bobs...

Rod

[SpellArcher]

I played them recently and my opponent deployed dead centre with a big unit of Ironguts with characters, flanked by support units. Then advanced quickly. I did not want to fight this unit, so split my army in two and tried to envelop him. Would have worked better if I hadn't blown my AM up turn 1!

dabber is dead right about dispelling in your turn, forgetting to take the Regen spell off really cost me. They also have a spell that causes a panic test, not much problem normally but with my BSB only covering one flank it could have been nasty.

Eagles are of course great against them (though watch out for hard characters charging solo out of units). So is shooting. You have enough to really hurt single units Curu, so long as you focus it.

You might find Gorgers turning up from table edges.

[Brian Mage]

My main opponent is Ogres. a few players round here love 'em
The primary thing to realise is that elves should win. Once you have that in your head, you don't need to fear the unknown

Big things to be worried about tho.
Tyrant - Quite cheap to field and awesome in CC. Most common builds will include "Tenderiser" esentially and magic GW with D3 wounds - you will die to this if you accept a challenge.
Lots of people are using mawseeker (essentially toughness 6) on characters (but comes with stupidity)
Tarpits of knoblars - 40=80pts... stupid cheap. (think they can stand and shoot with knives too)
Be very aware of TWO spells. Stop these at all costs.
1. the 4+ regeneration spell - its horrible to see 50% of wounds stand back up
2. the magic missile. its 2d6 @ Str2. doesn't sound so horrible, until you see it is no armour save - against a unit of DP's its awesome.
Full attacks back from second rank.
Stomp is horrible
Bull Charges are horrible (impact hits)
Scrap Launcher - its a stone throwing Chariot - the Rhinox pulling it is surprisingly hard


Shadow Lore is fantastic, but if you want life make sure you get the toughness spell. Throne is great, but even +2T is good against these
Their armour saves are low - normaly 5+

+1 for dwellers aswell. only a third will fail, but each ogre is 3W

Lion Chariots perform particularly well.

Leadbelchers come in units of 2 quite often. put 3 wounds on it and it will normally turn and run in not near the BSB.

The only reliable way to kill a tyrant... Charge his unit with your best CC unit. allocate every legal attack against it, inc characters and champs and cross your fingers. if he dies its a win, regardless of what the unit does back to you, normally not too bad really

If you can get Foe bane on a bladelord you are laughing, but its tailoring your list and i know you don't want to do that.

Bull Charges only work if they run more than 6". So march all your units right up to his face. with ASF it doesn't matter if he charges, just get close to stop the bull charge.

Essentially they play very very different to other armies, when played with finesse they are very good, but most ogre players line up a battle line and run forward!!

Thats about it from top of my head

Oh... Gorgers - not nice when they turn up late in your back line, however they can only do 2 wounds on average, so again, its quite psychological.

[Tethlis]

All good points so far. Most of the general advice has been covered, so I'll go for specifics.

I definitely want to echo that the Scraplauncher can really make a mess of Elven units if it gets lucky with a few hits. If you see your opponent loading up on those, you probably don't want to sit too idle or tightly packed in your deployment zone. Similarly, gnoblars can field an appalling amount of shooting by throwing 'Sharp Stuff', a 2x throwing weapon that isn't very scary on its own but can be frightening when thrown by 80+ gnoblars.

Ogre Butchers (their magic users) are no pushover. A decent combat statline, very high Toughness, can easily regenerate wounds on themselves, and can be decked out with some respectable combat-oriented wargear. I frequently see a Slaughtermaster (their Lord-level option) packing a 4+ Ward save, a great weapon that gives +3 Strength and rolls to hit against Initiative, not WS, and the Skullmantle (a mask that puts all nearby enemy Leadership tests at -1.)

8th edition Ogres are very conducive to Deathstar-style play, so expect lots of eggs in one nasty basket with a lot of satellite support fodder. The nastiest one I've seen so far actually borrowed a page from the Beastmen Minobus: Tyrant, BSB, champion in the front rank, and all Ironguts behind. For that first combat round, you can't really reach the rank-and-file models, focusing your attention on the defensively-oriented targets. The characters shrug off most hits, then pulp your unit in return when combined with Irongut support attacks from the back rank. Not as effective as the Minobus, since there are fewer impact hits and no Frenzy, but cheaper on the whole and a bit more durable.

Also, don't count much on offensive magic to help you. One Ogre standard lets the Ogre player redirect any hostile spell to another Ogre unit within 6 inches on a 2+. So expect to see your Dwellers redirected to gnoblars quite a bit. Ogres also have two magic items that basically cause Miscasts on the rolls of doubles: one is a One Use Only item that lasts all magic phase, and the other is a piece of magic armor that causes enemies to miscast on a double roll of 1, 2, 3. Keep an eye out for those.

[Curu Olannon]

Thanks a lot people - wonderful feedback so far!

I understand that Ogres are vulnerable, but how would you prioritize shooting? I assume that shooting his combat units is next to useless, however I would guess, based on your posts, that targeting flanking stuff like Leadbelchers is the way to go?

Also I believe his list is a take-all-comers. Am I to assume then that he's bringing a Tyrant, a Lord-level caster, or both? Regardless, what are the typical kinds of equipment these characters carry?

[dabber]

I understand that Ogres are vulnerable, but how would you prioritize shooting? I assume that shooting his combat units is next to useless, however I would guess, based on your posts, that targeting flanking stuff like Leadbelchers is the way to go?

You do not have much shooting, so I would focus on causing panic tests on small flanking units. Shooting Slavegiant, if he is crazy enough to field one, is also worthwhile, at least to take off a few wounds.

Also I believe his list is a take-all-comers. Am I to assume then that he's bringing a Tyrant, a Lord-level caster, or both?

Both.
The usual stuff, mostly from the common magic items list. There are a few useful Ogre Kingdoms items, and you should expect the Tenderizer and Hellheart mentioned above, but for the most part 8th edition massively upgraded their magic item options. One or two characters will be T6 with Mawseeker, since the stupidity is now a very minor side affect. Mostly a Tyrant selects from Tenderizer, Mawseeker, and common magic items.

[davieste]

I just walked through a HE army with my Ogres. I run a nasty deathstar with 3 t6 characters in the front rank. With the stubborn crown safely on a caster in the middle of the unit. It's hard to nail!

Shadow (pit) or death magic (purple sun) are your real friends here. Ogres get done over by initiative spells. The runemaw banner has a rang eof 6 inches which isn't much so you can get these spells off.

I dont really see the tenderiser a lot these days. The main combo's I see on a tyrant are:

Glittering scales, fencer blades, grayback pelt. WS10 with -2 to hit...

Mawseeker, tricksters helm. T6 and re-roll successful wounds. And still enough points for a ward too. (this is my set up although I add in a GW, other tricksters shard and the wrydstone necklace).

If you can kill the characters then the rest of your army should be able to deal with his units. Ogre kingdoms ARE the characters.

[Flame of the Asuryan]

Beware of the ScrapLaunchers. They are still strength 3 now and can be quite devastating. It will devaste your Swordmasters and has a good chance to take out a knight or two. You can solo charge your Prince in one. Too bad you dont have a small heavy cavalry unit, but your list is as it is .

Beware of Big Units or Ogre Hordes. Yes, hordes. They an get quite nasty. You can bombard them with your archers and bolt throwers. They are still T4 armoursave 5 or 6 so pretty juicy.

As others said, dispel scroll is fairly useless.

Huge Gnoblars units can stall you for quite some time (talking about like 50 of the buggers for merely 100 points!). In quantities, they can also harm your swordmasters with their shooting attack. They are easily dispersed however if you can draw them from their generals LD bubble.

Ogres units often lack ranks. Use this for your own advantage.

Prioritze magic. Think forward about what impact a certain spell will cause on the game. Ignore the 'useless' shots. He can cast everything on 1 or 2 dice if he has a slaughermaster.

Ogres is one of those few armies where cavalry armies struggle against, especially if they use both Stubborn items. Ironguts are nasty vs armour . You gotta thin out their ranks or multi-charge them.