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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:56 pm 
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This month we are discussing one of the newest books out: lizardmen.

Ok, Lizardmen are an army i have very little experience playing, so i'll throw this one straight to the floor. Enjoy.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:00 am 
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How are people finding Saurus? I've used a Saurus-heavy list in the past and found it great head-on but awful against gunlines. Can the M4 stuff be avoided/shot or do you find yourselves having to engage?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:36 am 
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great eagles are pretty sweet for making sure they dont get across the battlefield while you shoot away at the block.

saurus and temple guard are those units that are just tough as nails to bring down in close combat so we need to use everything else against them before they get there


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:37 am 
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Saurus are only really good for applying pressure to a part of the battle line, I think. Its pretty easy to avoid them, but it can mess up your tactics.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:05 pm 
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I have found with the saurus's better saves these days that metal is now the best lore to take against them.

It can really hurt their infantry, there is a basic magic missile for skinks, RoBI and SotF are both amazing at shooting the cav, wounding the characters and dealing with stegadons/engines. Not to mention transmutation of lead can greatly aid our units in combat. making saurus hit on 5's wound on 4's and lose a little armor really helps.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:30 pm 
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We all know the real culprit here. Engine of the Gods, in multiples.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:51 pm 
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To me, its the War Spear Steg/EotG combo thats really scary - shielding the only steg that doesn't need a combined charge to win just hurts.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:50 pm 
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langbaobao wrote:
We all know the real culprit here. Engine of the Gods, in multiples.

Agreed. Saurus are decent troops, but they are nothing compared to the big dinosaurs.

Terradons are also annoying and should be targetted by archers, RBTs and even magic missiles immediately.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:02 pm 
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what have you guys done to counter stegadons?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:32 pm 
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madelmo wrote:
what have you guys done to counter stegadons?

Shoot with RBTs a little and charge with Star Dragon. Repeat.
If you don't have a Star Dragon, hope Spirit of the Forge gets through enough to kill them.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:02 pm 
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The approach I have used against a multi-Steggie list (no Slaan) is to use a combination of march blocking (GE or Reavers) and ranged attacks (RBTs and magic).

For a dual level 2 mage set-up with Banner of Sorcery, I typically take the Lore of Heavens and High Magic. I am looking to get Portent of Far and Uranon’s Thunder Bolt on the Silver Wand mage. As for the High Seerstaff mage, I usually take Curse of Arrow Attraction and Fury of Khaine. This arrangement has typically given me the ability to drop one, maybe two, Steggies before b-t-b combat begins on turn 3 or 4. Further, it works well with my 7 – 9 PD.

The alternative approach is to take the Lore of Shadows on the Seerstaff mage and select Pit of Shades and a complimentary spell for your army. While viable, I think the Pit of Shades approach is better suited to lists with an Archmage.

I have not yet faced a Slaan + EotG + Steggie list. However, I think in this case, I would go with the Lore of Shadows (for Pit of Shades) on the Seerstaff mage as it may be the most efficient way to get rid of the Slaan (of course I’m praying for IF or double 1’s on his dispel attempt).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:06 pm 
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The Star Dragon works really well, I agree. For the rest - I try redirecting them with eagles/SW - this allows me to get a flank charge, a front charge or at least to be charged by just one stegadon. Failed terror test are a menace though.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:07 pm 
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Foxbat wrote:
The alternative approach is to take the Lore of Shadows on the Seerstaff mage and select Pit of Shades and a complimentary spell for your army.

Pit is awful against stegadons. First it only hits on a 4+ since it cannot cover them fully (center autohit is only for stone throwers). Secondly they test on the skink initiative of 4 (see GW FAQ). So your odds of killing a stegadon with Pit are 1 in 6.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:39 pm 
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i use pit of shades more often against the saurus blocks than the steggies (mostly for the reasons given)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:43 pm 
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Beware the Slann ability known as "The Becalming Cogitation", it targets an enemy wizard at the beginning of his phase and makes him discard all 6's when casting. It's like an old school Drain Magic that automatically goes off with range 24''. I'd try to deploy my casters on the flanks to get out of its reach. Just keep in mind that Slann/Temple Guard will only want to move forward 99% of the time so their path is pretty predictable.
The Carno is now Str 7 and does D3 wounds against all enemies not just large targets anymore. He still dies easily to RBT fire though.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:18 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Foxbat wrote:
The alternative approach is to take the Lore of Shadows on the Seerstaff mage and select Pit of Shades and a complimentary spell for your army.

Pit is awful against stegadons. First it only hits on a 4+ since it cannot cover them fully (center autohit is only for stone throwers). Secondly they test on the skink initiative of 4 (see GW FAQ). So your odds of killing a stegadon with Pit are 1 in 6.



Exactly, where as spirit of the forge can put a bit hurt on all Dino/saurus units.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:38 pm 
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Keith wrote:
dabber wrote:
Foxbat wrote:
The alternative approach is to take the Lore of Shadows on the Seerstaff mage and select Pit of Shades and a complimentary spell for your army.

Pit is awful against stegadons. First it only hits on a 4+ since it cannot cover them fully (center autohit is only for stone throwers). Secondly they test on the skink initiative of 4 (see GW FAQ). So your odds of killing a stegadon with Pit are 1 in 6.



Exactly, where as spirit of the forge can put a bit hurt on all Dino/saurus units.

Of course you two did realize that the plan was to have a 4th level with the 2nd level taking Lore of Shadows, right?

By the way, what are the chances that SotF can destroy a Steggie in one magic phase? I wonder if it's less than 1 in 6.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:56 am 
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Becalming is painful. I only had to face it once so far, and the only reason why it didn't shut down my magic phase was my BoH. One more reason to get the Star Dragon in favour of the archmage I guess.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Math time is always fun. I just wonder why I always need to do it.


On average, 7 hits on the Steg. with rounding 5 randomize onto the Stegadon itself.

1.666667 wounds for regular steg.
2.5 wounds for ancient steg.
plus ~2 crew kills per cast.

So on average. it should take 2 casts to kill an ancient and 3 to kill a regular stegadon. Where as you need between 3-4 casts of Pit of shades to kill a stegadon. I am sorry but even though it is more likely to kill in one cast, if it doesn't it does nothing to it.

With an EoTG the numbers change of course, with the ward save being around. But even then odds of putting at least 1 wound on the priest with SotF are very good. And one would assume you also have RoBI to finish him off.


Besides, with everything working together you are so much more likely to kill it. If SoTF randomizes a ton onto the crew, then there shouldn't be any left. Then our bolt throwers and subsequent casts of spells should be even more effective. Plus charging a steg with 1-2 wounds left on it with SMasters or WLions or DPrinces should easily be able to finish it off.

Things don't need to happen in one turn. and if you need them to happen in one turn... 1/6 isn't nearly good enough.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:03 pm 
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a lot of talk has been on steggies but what else in the list has been giving people trouble? i have only played a handful of games against the new lizzie book so i dont have much experience beyond steggies, saurus, skinks and saurus cav


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:08 pm 
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teradons are very troublesome, and only cost 90 points.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:46 pm 
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what have they dont against you that make them some troublesome?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:06 pm 
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The most troublesome combo you can come against is skinks skinks skinks centered by 2-4 stegs and flanked by terradons. Its just really hard to kill anything, and the things you do kill wernt worth much points. However its all easily countered if you play rock paper scissors. Beast cowers > Stegs. 2D6 MM > skinks. Sightless magic > Terradons. Shooting > all but skinks.

Dont try to kill things right off the bat. You need soften EVERYTHING up before trying to hit it hard. And the only thing you need to hit hard is stegs so yeah. Only deal with skinks or terradons the turn before they do something pivotal because it doesnt take more than one spell or more than one round of shooting to clear up either unit. Concentrate on stegs all game game and deal with the rest as it comes.

Big block units of temple guard or even saurus can be trumphed by a good round of combat by 7 swordmasters. Temple guard are actually easier to deal with than saurus spears cos we can just take out temple guard without fear of any attacks back ever.

Some of their magic items like the blade of realities are great against low leadership things but in the HE book that = nothing so dont be worried about it too much, if it happens then its pure luck. Their wards that arnt on the slann are terrible, armour is their only real defence. The steg save is pretty bad and if you get in within its range its gone. Salamanders arnt amazing and razordons can be charged by an eagle, at which point they'll be forced to stand and shoot and missfire and eat all their skinks.

There is one round about way to play lizards and it involves monsters, skirmishers and flyers. Once you know one competative list you know them all.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:56 am 
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The Lizard guy i verse alot with my HE ALWAYS takes 2 units of 3 Terradons because they are so good at charging R.B.T's on hills while dropping rocks on units it went over in that phase. The thing is though with Stegs and blocks of saurus coming at you. u have to wonder who to shoot at first. Terradons who will take out our R.B.T's, or the Dino's. Saurus blocks really like getting charged, so make them come to u if anything, but 2 ranks of spears can easily do alot of damage to our infantry.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:20 am 
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I have found the new Lizzie book really hard, 2 draws and 2 losses. The first draw was only against a new Lizzie player (but experienced warhammer player) who let his one steg get charged by my DPs. Personally I don’t think we will ever get a massacre against lizards, and we should aim for minor victories and points conservation.

The reasons Lizzies are hard are because….

3 dice for leadership makes them generally hard to break.
Skink screens protect the units
There is precious little we can do in combat against saurus blocks (SMs will get demolished by salamanders or terradon rocks)
Slann are much better casters than we are, with their +1 PD, Becalming and Cupped Hands, they can throw lots of dice at spells and throw any nasty miscasts our way, plus stop all our 6s.
Whilst stegs won’t trouble us too much in combat, they are hard to break, and only WLs and SMs can have a good chance of killing them with any speed.
Ancient Steg blowpipes and EotG are devastating against High Elves
Skink blow pipes are devasting against us too
Scar Vet saurus cav are massively powerful on their own and can easily break our core units by themselves

So how do you combat that? Relying on magic is unlikely to help, as your archmage will be Becalmed out of the game. No 6s really really hurts, even if you have the BoH. You may get a couple of spells off here and there, but between Becalming, dispel scrolls and ordinary dispels (particularly if they lizzie player has a token skink priest with a diadem) we are in real trouble relying on magic. Yet we can’t ignore our magic as we need it for magic defence from the Slaan’s spells – all those points effectively used for magic defence and 1 or 2 support spells during a game. Yuck. Thus I would recommend a Star Dragon list.

Personally when it does come to magic, I like Beasts, and in my other drawn game I was lucky enough to have beast cowers on my 2 lvl 2 mages in the army. That can hold up stegs and terradons if you can get through the Lizzie magic defence. Metal can also be useful for sniping any Scar Vet cavalry.

If you face a TempleGuard block with Slaan, ignore it. Don’t engage it, you won’t win or break it. Just ignore it and kill the rest of the army.

Use eagles to manoeuvre and charges on his stegs (though EotG and Ancient Stegs are happy standing and shooting if you use eagle diverters).

Lizzies will generally come to us, so we can stand back and fire at them for a few turns. First of all get rid of the salamanders, then if at all possible (it won’t be against a good player) get rid of the terradons. If they have Saurus cav, target that with shooting and magic (the basic lore of metal spell is your friend here), it is the easiest source of points for us.

Skinks are best dealt with in combat, if it is safe, I like to use Tiranoc chariots. If the skinks get in range for blowpipes, and aren’t running into trees, use the Tiranoc’s range to charge. Generally the skinks will flee and rally in the next turn, then charge again. Lion chariots are also useful for that, but more expensive to risk, and it is a bit overkill when the chariot could be used in support when the big saurus block hits you.

If you can keep the skinks at bay that removes a big bit of the threat, you only really have to worry about the saurus blocks then (stegs I don’t consider a real issue for Helves – it is just a tar pit). Saurus blocks will demolish just about anything we can put into them, save a good charge from DPs, a good round from SMs. If you have a battlestandard BSB with the Battle Banner, protect him in the early game and get him in. They will also break to a large Pheonix guard block if you can get a flank charge in too.

But what do I know? I haven’t won in four games yet!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:40 pm 
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you can absolutely engage temple guard. just don't do it while there are more than 6 models in the unit or when there are other things to threaten you. Letting yourself get flanked by a stegadon or saurus is a sure way to lose.


One of the big issues for HE are spear saurus. They are hard to break with a BSB around (easy to beat, for one round at least). The trouble is when you have units with 21 attacks with no characters, and STR 4 is great for killing elven infantry. The moment you don't kill enough saurus, their spears will grind you out. PG are actually pretty solid against them, so long as you can kill a character on a cold one in the unit. Outnumbered by fear is always a good thing, it gets used against us enough. It isn't enough to beat Saurus, you could engage them on turn 2 and beat them until turn 6 and never break them. Their leadership with rerolls is too good.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:06 pm 
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Lizardmen have a lot of strengths, but you can play around them. So he has Becalming? Keep your Archmage 25" from the Slann, and within range of his bodyguard if you care. With Banner of Sorcery, you can put most of your magic into whichever Mage isn't becalmed- so one level 2 throwing out 2 x 3 dice spells, and level 4 throwing out a 4-dicer will still worry the lizards- and that's before considering the Ring and perhaps a third Mage.

If you go magic-lite, it can be difficult. One trick I like to do is to place an RBT on a hill, join my scroll caddy to the unit, but place him behind the hill itself (but still within 1" of machine)- then if the Slann miscasts and has Cupped Hands to bounce it over to us, then he can't see the Mage.

Other Slann trickery is the Bane Head item, which means he deals double wounds to one character- usually the BSB. It's not as esy against us as with other enemies, as our BSBs are immune to flaming spells, so Rule of Burning Iron won't do it; often this means a Slann might take Death Magic for Steal Soul, so be careful of that. Loremaster's Cloak can be an interesting choice in these days of Buboes, Gateways, Black Horrors and machine-gun sniper Slanns for that 2+ ward save on one crucial unit.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:12 pm 
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Keith is right about Saurus and autobreaking. When I played them they almost never broke otherwise.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:06 pm 
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I've faced off against saurus blocks on a regular basis and I don't find them too tricky so long as I follow 3 basic principles:

1. Make them come to you and slow them with eagles etc.

2. Make sure, when fighting them to the front, you receive the charge so they lose the 2nd rank of spears.

3. Once you're in combat with them, have something to flank them with and make it count


"1" Is easy for us as we have the greater amount of long-range firepower compared with lizzies and we don't even need to be shooting at the saurus to give them itchy feet. Even 1 eagle will keep saurus blocks out of the game for the first few turns. They're difficult to get at as the skinks tend to be on flank or screen duty, which usually puts them in front of the blocks and unable to reach the eagle. Watch out for heavens lore from the priests, though.

Fighting lizzies is all about controlling the flanks as far as I can tell. It we can take out their skirmishers and support units early (either by running them over or by shooting/magicking them) we can pretty much lead the saurus by the nose for the rest of the battle while our heavy stuff handles their big beasts.

Temple Guard aren't a problem as far as fighting is concerned, either. As long as they have their flank covered, swordmasters will turn them into paste.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Exactly Seredain, couldn't agree more. That is why the troubling units are their support units and the US10 dinosaurs. It can be hard to isolate units with all the cheap stuff flying around everywhere.

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