Prince of Spires wrote:Luna Guardian wrote:We seem to have veered away from the actual topic somewhat, so bringing it back to it (or trying to ).
I tried. I really did, in my last paragraph...
Luna Guardian wrote:Am I forgetting anyone important?
Tomb kings, Ogres?
I said important, didn't I?
Prince of Spires wrote:I think that in general, to rebuild the factions and create a stronger universe, each faction needs several things they strive for and some common sense behavior. Also, I think that the factions should be more diverse internally. Within one nation you will always find dissenting opinions and people with influence trying to achieve their own goals. Most of the WH races have one single purpose and goal. Not really that aspirational.
That's a very good point, especially the common sense argument. A lot of the WH races don't even have a purpose or goal really, at least not beyond "survive" or "conquer/destroy". More nuanced goals, greater and lesser ambitions, would allow for far more exploration of the factions and expand the world without straying too far from what interested us about the world in the first place.
Prince of Spires wrote:High Elves for instance are indeed a prime example of a former colonial superpower who are now hanging on to what they have left. But they are also traders at heart. Which means that they will sell pretty much anything to anyone as long as the price is right. Which also means that their ruling elite will squabble and often get in each others way if there is a profit to be made. It also opens up the door for a distinction between the old elite, with fancy titles and a long history and more up and coming merchant princes, who are richer but not as aristocratic.
With obvious and welcome parallels to real life historical development, I love it! It could also make the kingdoms even more distinct, with the ancient nobility of some kingdoms taking part in the trade as well (most likely more common in Cothique and Eataine), which would further muddy the waters of the aristocracy.
Prince of Spires wrote:Dwarves could be similar to the Byzantines. Not really a big colonial power. But the remnants of a huge and influential empire. Focused on preserving what they have. With a big and efficient bureaucratic layer whos focus is on tax collection to make sure all the standing armies keep getting paid on time.
I quite enjoy this idea as well, even though few things say "exciting and action-packed" less than efficient tax collection
. From a realistic perspective though, it does of course lend itself to a hugely powerful industrialized faction that can project force efficiently.
Prince of Spires wrote:Orcs and Goblins you could give some extra depth by making them a displaced race. In times no longer remembered they inhabited a paradise like land, "granted" to them by the ancients. They now fight to claim it back. Tough perhaps they're also not 100% sure where it actually is anymore. Or if it even still exists. This gives a reason for all the fighting. But it also means that you can have an O&G nation somewhere that is just happily farming away if left to their own devices since they believe they reached their homeland. Which also opens up more options for conflict, as they could get invaded by their neighbours, or cause a migration from other O&G to get there and so on.
This might mess with the greenskins in Warhammer a little too much, unless handled very carefully. The kind of serious, kind of wacky personality of the greenskins is one of the unique aspects of WH, so having them have some understandable motivation might rob them of what makes them special. I always viewed the O&G more as a force of nature rather than a real faction, maybe they could actually be a creation of the Old Ones similar to 40k, but after Chaos defeated the Old Ones they were driven mad, and only a rare few retain the intelligence to treat with anyone outside their own kind? That would cause the constant fighting but still allow for players (and GW, hypothetically) to have their greenskins have goals, ambitions, etc. that wouldn't always put them in the role of the antagonist.
Olthannon wrote:I think the thing that surprises me the most is that despite having a huge world made and so much personality and ideas floating around rather than expanding they contracted and pushed themselves into a corner which they decided would end with everything.
I think the probelm is as Prince of Spires mentioned, the world, while big, was also very hollow. Factions were very one dimensional and rigid, which didn't actually lend the setting to be expanded without a major upheaval. For example, the elves and the dwarves as written could never really reconcile, despite thousands of years having passed and neither civilization really changed at all during that time (except for a constant decline).
Olthannon wrote:An interesting imagining for me in Warhammer would have been chaos waning, retreating for the first time and seeing races strive north to retake land lost by the wastes, perhaps with less Chaos the Norse could become a stronger faction by themselves.
That's actually very interesting. It would allow for a new theater of battle for all the factions, there could be a new Norscan faction that wants to break away from the madness and bloodshed of the Chaos gods, but that would be received very poorly by the other races due to mistrust, etc. Cool idea!
Olthannon wrote:The undead rise up again but perhaps with different factions being realigned. The Lahmians aiding humans against the Von Carstein menace in Sylvania.
I admittedly don't know enough about the undead to comment here, although vampire bloodlines warring with each other makes very much sense. The Tomb Kings I don't see that differently from regular humans in their motivation, but given the obvious difference between the needs of the undead and the living, there could be some interesting interactions.
Olthannon wrote:Or expanding on Cathay, Nippon and Ind, so many new places to explore, new model lines there would have been incredible and also could have been a lot more inclusive? Seems like that would have been a smart business model.
The "problem" with Cathay, Nippon, and Ind are the same as for Lizardmen I feel. They're too far from the Old World to realistically be present given the technology level of Warhammer. With the lizzies you can at least make the excuse that they have some special magical Old One portal technology which allows their armies to move to far away places in pursuit of the Great Plan though, but the rest I feel would be better represented as either mercenary troops or special characters.