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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:00 pm 
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I herewith present the 3500 points army to combat Tomb Kings with. We might grade this up to a 4000 battle, so the list is not fixed. Sword of Hoeth is probably a nice asset vs Tomb Kings ;).

Army books: 6th Edition (the best of all)
Rulebook: 7th Edition (somewhat less complicated)


    Prince 125 1 125
    Sword of Hoeth 60 185
    Guardian Phoenix 25 210
    Enchanted Shield 10 220
    Dragon Armour 9 229
    Gwyphon 200 420 420

    Archmage 220 1 220
    L4 35 255
    Annulian Crystal 40 295
    Channeler 10 305
    Seer 30 335
    Dispel Scroll 20 355 355

    Mage purp 95 1 95
    L2 35 130
    Ring of Fury 30 160
    Dispel Scroll 20 180 180

    Mage teclis 95 1 95
    L2 35 130
    Ring of Corin 35 165
    Jewel of the Dusk 15 180 180


    Comm 70 1 70
    Dragon Armour 6 76
    Shield 2 78
    Barded Steed 17 95
    Helm of Fortune 25 120
    Sword of Might 15 135
    BSB 25 160 160

    Archers 12 10 120
    Mus 6 126 126

    Archers 12 10 120
    Mus 6 126 126

    Spears 11 30 330
    Mus 6 336
    Std 12 348
    Chp 12 360
    Lion Standard 25 385 385

    Silver Helms 23 12 276
    Mus 7 283
    Std 14 297
    Chp 14 311 311

    Dragon Princes 26 11 286
    Mus 9 295
    Std 18 313
    Chp 18 331
    Ellyrion Banner 15 346
    Amulet of Purifying Flame 15 361 361

    Tir Chariot 85 1 85 85
    Tir Chariot 85 1 85 85

    Swordmasters 13 17 221
    Mus 7 228
    Std 14 242
    Chp 14 256
    Banner of Sorcery 50 306 306

    Phoenix Guard 15 17 255
    Mus 7 262
    Std 14 276
    Chp 14 290
    War Banner 20 310 310

    Great Eagle 50 1 50 50
    Great Eagle 50 1 50 50


    Model Count 111 3490

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Looks pretty balanced Flame, magic (which it’ll need against TK’s) is strong, it’s got combat threat (though I doubt the Phoenix Guard).

Shooting’s a bit light. Did you consider RBT?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:33 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Looks pretty balanced Flame, magic (which it’ll need against TK’s) is strong, it’s got combat threat (though I doubt the Phoenix Guard).

Shooting’s a bit light. Did you consider RBT?


Thank you :D . I also doubt the Phoenix Guard, but hey, I never used them in 6th for a reason. As such, I would really like to try them out (overcosted, fragile, I know!).

I did consider Bolt Throwers, but I doubt I can win the standstill. So I decided to invest points in mobility, rather than ballistics. I trust on my (stable) power dices to deal with the fast threats! 8)

Current prince config or rather Armour of Protection? I think Sword of Hoeth is strong. It overperformed in the 2250 battle, by a large margin. Ring of Corin on that 4+ save thingy, then rolling 4x 3+ in a challenge to kill the king in a single swing of the sword was great.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:46 am 
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I like the list overal. Lot's of mobile threats and many of them interchangeable. The list will give the question of what to focus on to your opponent.

Changing some SM into PG might be an idea so they end up lasting slightly longer.

I also think the archers will not do much. S3 shots just don't do much (for me anyway, though that could just be because all my archers are blind...). Perhaps changing the Spears into more archers could work.

Let us know how the battle went.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
I did consider Bolt Throwers, but I doubt I can win the standstill. So I decided to invest points in mobility, rather than ballistics. I trust on my (stable) power dices to deal with the fast threats!

Yeah, I get this. Rob Lane's very successful armies were either all-attack or heavy shooting.

Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Armour of Protection?

What does this do Flame?

Prince of Spires wrote:
Changing some SM into PG might be an idea so they end up lasting slightly longer.

I forget exactly how 6th Edition Swordmasters worked Rod. Given the lack of the 4+ Ward, the PG clearly benefit from bodies. The SM's? I remember blocks of them before the 7th book made really small units viable. But the elite infantry just weren't that popular in 6th.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I also think the archers will not do much. S3 shots just don't do much (for me anyway, though that could just be because all my archers are blind...). Perhaps changing the Spears into more archers could work.

Curse of Arrow Attraction could make a difference but then you would want RBT's I guess.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:51 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
I did consider Bolt Throwers, but I doubt I can win the standstill. So I decided to invest points in mobility, rather than ballistics. I trust on my (stable) power dices to deal with the fast threats!

Yeah, I get this. Rob Lane's very successful armies were either all-attack or heavy shooting.

Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Armour of Protection?

What does this do Flame?

Prince of Spires wrote:
Changing some SM into PG might be an idea so they end up lasting slightly longer.

I forget exactly how 6th Edition Swordmasters worked Rod. Given the lack of the 4+ Ward, the PG clearly benefit from bodies. The SM's? I remember blocks of them before the 7th book made really small units viable. But the elite infantry just weren't that popular in 6th.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I also think the archers will not do much. S3 shots just don't do much (for me anyway, though that could just be because all my archers are blind...). Perhaps changing the Spears into more archers could work.

Curse of Arrow Attraction could make a difference but then you would want RBT's I guess.


Armour of Protection is light armour that also confers a 4+ Ward Save. But then I will need to bluff dragon armour.

6th Edition Swordmasters have one attack and srike on initiative. Protection of PG and SM is exactly the same, while offensively their capacity is somewhat weaker (1 WS 5 S 4 attack vs 1 WS 6 S 5 attack). Except that fear causing Phoenix Guard do not autobreak against the undead.

The archers are a bit of core requirement anyway :) and possibly mage bunker.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Armour of Protection is light armour that also confers a 4+ Ward Save. But then I will need to bluff dragon armour.

It doesn't seem massively better.

Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
6th Edition Swordmasters have one attack and srike on initiative. Protection of PG and SM is exactly the same, while offensively their capacity is somewhat weaker (1 WS 5 S 4 attack vs 1 WS 6 S 5 attack)

I played a fair bit of 6th and never once saw Phoenix Guard. Lions once but striking last was an absolute killer for them. Swordmasters seemed the most functional of the three.

Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Except that fear causing Phoenix Guard do not autobreak against the undead.

Good point Flame. I forget what a scourge Autobreaking was until 8th Edition.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:35 am 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
6th Edition Swordmasters have one attack and srike on initiative. Protection of PG and SM is exactly the same, while offensively their capacity is somewhat weaker (1 WS 5 S 4 attack vs 1 WS 6 S 5 attack). Except that fear causing Phoenix Guard do not autobreak against the undead.

Without step-up and only one rank striking, going in initiative order is a pretty big advantage I think (especially with the above average I of elves). It means you can dish out damage while taking not too much back. And without steadfast you then get a decent chance of breaking an enemy unit.

It's why MSU armies filled with fast, hard hitting units were so popular in 7th edition. A 5-7 strong unit of (7th ed book) dragon princes could run through a large part of an army without taking many casualties in combat. It's also what made the HE speed of Assuryan so strong and despised as a rule.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:18 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Lions once but striking last was an absolute killer for them. Swordmasters seemed the most functional of the three.

Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Except that fear causing Phoenix Guard do not autobreak against the undead.

Good point Flame. I forget what a scourge Autobreaking was until 8th Edition.


I agree with the analysis (SM being the most functional in 6th, and they were Special rather than Rare), and PG having a good advantage vs Undead due to inmunity to autobreaks, although you can get the Lion Standard for 25p for any unit and make it inmune to Fear and Terror too.

For Lions in 6th I think what they got going for them was moving through Forests unhindered, they could hide there in soft cover together with 4+ AS against ranged, and threaten to charge things getting nearby the forest (WS5 S6 attacks hurt). You could also try to use them as counter-chargers but you had to pin the enemy with another of your units which wasn't always obvious since Spears are not the best anvil.

Something you might want to try if you run elite infantry in 6th is a Mage with Shadow Lore for the magical move from the Unseen Lurker spell, it's an extra 8 inches that you can use to charge (and the enemy is forced to hold, although against Undead this doesn't matter). Enough magical power to force it through will be necessary because the enemy will prioritize dispelling it.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It's why MSU armies filled with fast, hard hitting units were so popular in 7th edition. A 5-7 strong unit of (7th ed book) dragon princes could run through a large part of an army without taking many casualties in combat. It's also what made the HE speed of Assuryan so strong and despised as a rule.
Rod

It's funny because on the charge 7th ed Dragon Princes were better than 6th ed Chosen Chaos Knights :shock:
The power creep was real in 7th.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:43 am 
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elendor_f wrote:
It's funny because on the charge 7th ed Dragon Princes were better than 6th ed Chosen Chaos Knights The power creep was real in 7th.

It definitely was. And the HE book really started it off. The 8th ed. army books were a lot better in that regard I think. Though some were underpowered, most were pretty middle of the road. And the huge excesses of 7th edition were missing.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:30 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
Lion Standard for 25p for any unit and make it inmune to Fear and Terror too.

I used to swear by Standard of Balance in late 7th/early 8th. Not sure how good this was in 6th as I was mainly playing Wood Elves then.

elendor_f wrote:
Unseen Lurker spell, it's an extra 8 inches that you can use to charge

They considered this so powerful that they removed it in 8th.

Prince of Spires wrote:
And the HE book really started it off.

Lord Anathir always held that it started with the WE book at the end of 6th, though HE 7th was obviously a step up. Though I guess we can look back to the big problems the Skaven book caused in 6th and perhaps even earlier.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
It's funny because on the charge 7th ed Dragon Princes were better than 6th ed Chosen Chaos Knights The power creep was real in 7th.

It definitely was. And the HE book really started it off. The 8th ed. army books were a lot better in that regard I think. Though some were underpowered, most were pretty middle of the road. And the huge excesses of 7th edition were missing.


I think you are right. 7th was one pushed book after another. In 8th, indeed the books were funnier, but those books robbed off the uniqueness of some armies.

@SpellArcher; Yeah, that banner was really necessary. Usually, both Lion and Balance were included.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:59 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
Lion Standard for 25p for any unit and make it inmune to Fear and Terror too.

I used to swear by Standard of Balance in late 7th/early 8th. Not sure how good this was in 6th as I was mainly playing Wood Elves then.

elendor_f wrote:
Unseen Lurker spell, it's an extra 8 inches that you can use to charge

They considered this so powerful that they removed it in 8th.

Prince of Spires wrote:
And the HE book really started it off.

Lord Anathir always held that it started with the WE book at the end of 6th, though HE 7th was obviously a step up. Though I guess we can look back to the big problems the Skaven book caused in 6th and perhaps even earlier.


Standard of Balance was fine but 45p is on the expensive side, although removing Frenzy, Hatred and Stubborn in base contact is great. I guess those rules are slightly less common in 6th than in 7th, but overall a good choice.

I can understand why, Unseen Lurker, Blinding Light (reduce enemy unit M to half, WS and BS to 1 until next wizard's magic phase) and Howling Wind (no shooting of S4 or less within 12 in of the wizard, all enemy units move half in this area) were probably the best spells from the 8 basic lores in 6th. Unfortunately Lore of Light was bad so few people used Blinding Light :(

I agree that the Skaven book marked a significant deviation from the first 6th ed books which were designed more or less with the same pattern (Empire, Orcs, Vampire Counts, Dwarves, Dark Elves, High Elves), and not surprisingly the armies considered low-end were mostly from this period (Dwarves, Dark Elves). Only VC were considered a top tier army from this group, but VC are quite a special army :)
Skaven, Chaos and Lizardmen broke many of the design patterns that GW used at the start of 6th and came out on top, and indeed Wood Elves was another step up in the power scale, although the level of imbalance in 6th remained bearable (compared to the domination of VC, DE and Daemons in 7th).
In the mean time they also released some experimental armies like Tomb Kings and Ogres.

Now that I think about it, the first armies I mentioned were infantry based and since ranked infantry became outclassed by the new toys, that's probably the main reason they suffered and had to evolve into different playstyles like full cavalry + shooting (Empire, High Elves), full magic (Orcs and Goblins), MSU (Dark Elves) and Dwarves didn't find anything really fitting outside of gunline.
Skaven's infantry was an excuse to get more ratling guns, Chaos could completely ignore ranked infantry, Lizardmen was guerrilla-tactics with the skink clouds and the monsters, and Bretonnia could destroy most units on the charge so ranked infantry had to be very careful. Wood Elves could play like Lizardmen but more efficiently.

This is a rough generalization, but thinking about it I can undersand why GW introduced random charge ranges (infantry could actually charge once in a while, and their threat range was extended) and Steadfast to bring infantry back into the game without pushing the reset bottom for power level like from 5th to 6th.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:15 am 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
@SpellArcher; Yeah, that banner was really necessary. Usually, both Lion and Balance were included.

I had both at the end of 7th and dropped Lion in 8th.

elendor_f wrote:
I guess those rules are slightly less common in 6th than in 7th

Exactly. The 7th Edition books were rife with powerful units depending on Hatred and Frenzy and of course those books were only gradually replaced into 8th.

elendor_f wrote:
Only VC were considered a top tier army from this group, but VC are quite a special army

I faced a lot of Black Knight buses in 6th.

elendor_f wrote:
the level of imbalance in 6th remained bearable (compared to the domination of VC, DE and Daemons in 7th

Nightmare. :(

elendor_f wrote:
Skaven's infantry was an excuse to get more ratling guns

The Skaven gunline ruled the mid-6th tournament scene here in the UK.

elendor_f wrote:
This is a rough generalization, but thinking about it I can undersand why GW introduced random charge ranges (infantry could actually charge once in a while, and their threat range was extended) and Steadfast to bring infantry back into the game without pushing the reset bottom for power level like from 5th to 6th.

Making Infantry competitive seems a perennial issue. I remember players trying and failing with Chaos Warriors in 6th for example before branching out into Ambushing Beast Herds and such. Steadfast was a very good move. I was one who doubted 8th Edition before playing it but it just works. Using the 7th Edition army books into 8th had it’s issues (3++ Chosen anyone?) but these eased as the new books were released.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:52 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
This is a rough generalization, but thinking about it I can undersand why GW introduced random charge ranges (infantry could actually charge once in a while, and their threat range was extended) and Steadfast to bring infantry back into the game without pushing the reset bottom for power level like from 5th to 6th.

Making Infantry competitive seems a perennial issue. I remember players trying and failing with Chaos Warriors in 6th for example before branching out into Ambushing Beast Herds and such. Steadfast was a very good move. I was one who doubted 8th Edition before playing it but it just works. Using the 7th Edition army books into 8th had it’s issues (3++ Chosen anyone?) but these eased as the new books were released.

I think 8th edition was pretty well put together as a whole. And a lot of the bigger changes all tied together. Random charges indeed helped with the viability of infantry. But they were also necessary because you could now measure everything. And you don't want a game where you're always a fraction of an inch outside of charge range, which is certainly possible to achieve when you premeasure.

Steadfast also worked as intended I think, until the damage output per model rose above what could be sustained by big blocks of infantry models. But that was more an issue of the individual army books then of 8th edition. The only issue with steadfast I have is that it is a bit too one dimensional. You want to give some bonus for flank or rear charges for instance (like only could half the ranks for a flank charge and none for a rear charge). They might even have considered something like this with the disruption rules. But there is some room for improvement here.

Towards the end of 8th, individual army books started messing with the balance again. But to a lesser degree then in 7th edition. Or maybe the books mainly changed the meta-game. Big infantry blocks disappeared again as monstrous cavalry (and infantry to a lesser degree) became more powerful.

Rod

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Yup, we managed to do it! We made pictures this time. Next week, I will try and make a nice batrep out of this. It took a full 5 hours to play out. But it was accompanied by 90s music and selfmade cake, so it wasn't all that bad ;) . Will keep you all updated!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Next week, I will try and make a nice batrep out of this.

Looking forward to this!

=D>

Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
selfmade cake

I have a friend who was occasionally paid in this.

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