3500pts battle

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Prince of Spires
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3500pts battle

#1 Post by Prince of Spires »

Out of curiosity over in my plog I calculated the biggest fully painted army I could field. Much to my surprise I found out that I have over 4000 points of HE models painted. And not just that, but also that it's divided in such a way that it actually makes a surprisingly legal 8th ed. 4000pts army.

Of course, there is only one thing you can do after realizing such a thing. And that is to have a mega battle. So, one of my friends who's putting together a skaven army has agreed to a 3500pts battle. Why not 4000 you ask? He only has 3500pts worth of rats... Now, given the (self imposed) limitation of only fielding painted models, it will not be an optimal list. Not by a long shot. But, it will be fun.

As for what I have to work with, here's my collection of models
Characters
2* noble / prince on foot
eagle mounted prince / bsb
Seahelm BSB
(arch)mage
Caradryan

Core
24 archers, FC
24 spearmen
30 LSG
13 Elyrian Reavers, 2* FC

Special
10 SM, FC
10 WL, FC
5 SW, champ
26 PG, FC
1 Lion chariot
1 Tyranoc chariot
1 Skycutter
10 DPs, FC

Rare
1 RBT
2 GE
1 Frosthear phoenix
1 Flamespire phoenix

Battle is tonight (or at least, starts tonight, I doubt we'll finish...). So, time to put a list together. Of course, the easy part is that most of the stuff will end up on the table. But if the list ends up half decent then that's a bonus.

General plan for now:
eagle prince general, archmage (book), BSB (either seahelm or normal) for characters
2 units of reavers in core, 30 LSG and 24 archers
Special centered around 26 PG (razor banner of course) and 10 DPs
Rare simply has everything painted there.

The character loadout is not idea. An extra mage of some sort would be better. But I don't have one, and don't feel like proxy-ing, given the idea of only fielding finished stuff. On the other hand, you can't really go wrong with a unit of PG in special. and against rats both the frostheart and the flamespire will be ace. The lone RBT is a bit a weak spot again. But good enough for taking out lone weapon teams etc.

Let me know what you think. I'll put up a list once I have it. If you have any ideas let me know. The wilder the better. So weird items that could work but never see play or strange combinations that might just work but you never tried because you lacked points.

Rod
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Re: 3500pts battle

#2 Post by Prince of Spires »

It's quite interesting, building a list this size. First time I've seriously put together anything over 2500pts. I'm tempted to put lots of goodies in, but somehow they eat up points fast. So, better to stay lean and mean. On the other hand, not having a stardragon in the list easily saves 400pts.

What I've come up with
Total: 3499

lords - 551
Prince on eagle, starlance, TOTS, Golden crown, dragonhelm, heavy armour, shield, lion cloak, GW, 276
Archmage, lvl 4, book of Hoeth, high (or shadow, not sure yet), 275

heros - 345
Lothern Sea helm BSB, armour of caledor, 175
Caradryan, stuff, 170

core - 888
20 Spearmen, musician, 190
22 archers, musician, 230
29 LSG, full command, shields, 378
5 reavers, musician, spears, 90

special - 1080
10 * Dragon princes, full command, 320
10 * WL, full command, 160
24 * PG, full command, razor banner, 435
5 * SW 70
skycutter 95

rare - 635
2 * Great Eagle 100
RBT 70
flamespire 225
frostheart 240

Some thoughts behind the list.
Prince on eagle I'm curious about. I've used eagle BSB's and dragon lords. This is a bit in between. The tricky part is probably protecting a lone model in this setup. But we'll see.
Archmage: I'm doubting a bit between high and shadow. High is good against low T, low as horde armies (such as skaven). For most spells I can find a use I think. Shadow, well, you can't really go wrong with shadow of course. But I'm worried about spell selection a bit. Pit and mindrazor are a must and at least one out of enfeebling and withering. But with only a lvl 4, that's a bit a risk. Also, the book has great synergy with high.

Core: well, just stuff. Just because I can :) only 1 reaver unit. With 2 eagles and a unit of SW, 1 should be enough. Also, spears are good against t3 low armour rats (or good enough at least).

Special
All the FC is there because those are the models I have. And, no proxies in this game :) The skycutter is there simply to give him a try. Will probably get flanking / harassment duty. PG, can't really go wrong with them. Usually I run a smaller block. I'm curious to see how a big one performs. It will be the anchor of the list. The DP's. Again, curious to see how they perform. The SW are there just because I can :) They normally are one of the first things to get chopped as I run out of points.

Overall I think that in a more serious list I would probably drop several PG, the DP's to 7 and lose the banner and champ on the WL. Which would leave 170-ish points for other goodies. I would probably also drop an archer and Caradryan (again, there simply because I can and I have him painted up) and turn the Lothern sea helm into a normal BSB, DP kit (seriously who at GW thought this guys equipment selection was a good idea...). This would give me 350pts to play with. With that I would probably upgrade the flamespire to a frosty, get 2 more RBT's, increase the WL to 17 and add something like a lion chariot. A serious boost compared to what they replace I think. But, no models...

And of course, this was never meant to be a tough list :) Otherwise I'd also drop the skycutter (and the lion chariot mentioned in the sentence before this one), add some more WL with the BotWD, shuffle core around to include a big SH bus in place of the LSG, turn the spearmen into archers, add a unit of reavers, drop the eagles and turn them into some fun unit. But of course, actually achieving that will take another 5 years of painting ;) The good thing is of course that at least the 8th ed. rules aren't likely to change any time soon...

Rod
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Re: 3500pts battle

#3 Post by Doctor »

Actually Caradryan seems like quite a good HPA killer :) No BoEF on your list, I guess your opponent doesn't have them?

No BoWD (which is also nice against Skaven) to not make the list too tough. But I wonder if there's a good unit for it on this list? (WLs are too small, so DP's maybe? PG will probably benefit from the razor banner more due to their innate WS)
[...] and turn the Lothern sea helm into a normal BSB, DP kit (seriously who at GW thought this guys equipment selection was a good idea...).
I don't get te bold part, could you elaborate? :)

Have fun!
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Re: 3500pts battle

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

Well, the battle started :) My opponent was late, so in the end we only managed to set everything up and play a single turn. No worries though, I can leave everything standing around until next time. So, this will simply end up running a bit longer...

About the list, the BoEF was indeed a good suggestion (one HPA in his list). So, I dropped an archer and added the banner on the DP's (though I doubt it'll matter, as will be seen later after deployment). Thanks for the reminder about Caradryans flaming attacks. I have a decent hope they'll come in useful :)

About the BotWD, it's a bit a combined case of not having a good target unit for it and going for a slightly softer list. My opponent isn't the best of players. So, no need to use the toughest stuff in the list. Takes the fun out of it a bit (in this setting at least). Also, the PG benefit a lot more from the razor banner then from the BotWD. The DP's could have been a decent target for it. The WL were too small. They're a disposable unit in the list to do maximum damage, hold up stuff for a few turns and then die.
Doctor wrote:
and turn the Lothern sea helm into a normal BSB, DP kit (seriously who at GW thought this guys equipment selection was a good idea...).
I don't get te bold part, could you elaborate?
Sorry, that was a bit a confusing sentence perhaps. Too many thoughts in one go. What I meant was that in a competitive list I would take a noble as a bsb instead of the sea helm. And that I would give him the same kind of equipment that a DP has. So mounted, barding, heavy armour, shield for a 2+ save. And then use the 50 points of items for something other then basic armour. So, something like ogre blade, dragon helm, luckstone. Or give him the BotWD of course.

First off, a groupshot of the whole team
Image
Ignore the HPA in the top left. He's on the other side and just snuck into the picture. It's an interesting list. 135 models. Not sure if I've ever had a list anywhere close in amount of models. I find it an impressive sight, all those painted models. And of course, I'm counting on painted models rolling better then unpainted ones :)

Next post, deployment and T1 :)

Rod
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Re: 3500pts battle

#5 Post by Prince of Spires »

army list
I used the list I mentioned above. My opponent brought something along the following lines:

Characters
Grey seer on screaming bell
2 warlock engineers
2 chieftans (1 BSB)

Core
77 clanrats, spears, bell unit
28 clanrats, handweapon
25 clanrats, handweapon
2 poisoned wind mortars (weapon team)
1 flame thrower weapon team

Special
6 rat ogres, pack master

Rare
doomwheel
HPA
warp lightning canon

Deployment

Image
Deployment was a bit messy (for lack of a better word). Since we were a bit pressed for time, we agreed that I'd simply start deploying stuff while he was still sorting out rats. Which mean that I went for a very generic deployment. And, as mentioned in the post above, that my DP's ended up on the wrong side of the field with their flaming banner. Still, not too bad I think.

Deployment wise, he had (from bottom to top in the picture)
Rat ogres
warp lightning canon
smallest unit of clanrats with flame thrower attached
bell unit with (at the bottom side) one of the mortar things
HPA
medium clanrat unit with the other mortar at the top
Doomwheel in the far corner

For my deployment I went with a 2 tiered setup with one heavier flank. With all the flyers in the second row I felt I had most flexibility and could easily redeploy to react to whatever my opponent would put on the table.
Eagle in the corner, to prevent any scouts from setting up in my backline
front row:
DP's
WL in cube formation
Reavers and spearmen behind the forest
PG with Caradryan
LSG with BSB
archers with archmage
second eagle
Second row:
Frosty
Prince on eagle
Flamespire
skycutter
RBT on the hill

Lastly, my shadow warriors managed to squeeze into the bottom left corner, just outside the 12'' from the ratogres. Let's see if they can manage to take out the warp lightning canon before dying.

Spells for the archmage using high: I rolled 2,2,2,4 which is about as good a roll as you can get I suppose. I went for Apotheosis, Hand, Tempest and Convocation. Roughly because healing wounds on single models is very useful in this list, hand will help out in crucial combats (hopefully) or boost the shooting elements. And Tempest and convocation are ace against horde armies. Especially convocation can be a game changer.

Overall, not too unhappy with deployment. I have both Caradryan and the flamespire facing off against the HPA, the RBT has decent line of sight and with my heavy right flank and the reavers and eagles, I should be able to mess with the movement of the bell unit enough to keep half his army busy while dealing with the rest. Getting the SW to where they are standing is simply a bonus. Better would have been to have the DPs directly opposite the HPA. But even with a normal deployment I'm not sure I would have managed. They would have gone on either of the flanks. and with the heavy right flank, they are better suited to the open left flank.

Worries are the HPA. Too unpredictable. The Doomwheel can hurt if it gets near some of the flyers. And again, unpredictable. And some of his shooting is a bit of a worry. If all those templates hit home then it can hurt.

Also, it always feel a bit unfair, playing skaven who still have a 7th book with all their magic items. Easy access to extra magic dice and some weird items is tough sometimes.

T1 will follow a bit later.

Rod
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Re: 3500pts battle

#6 Post by Doctor »

Have fun :)
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Re: 3500pts battle

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

A substantial undertaking Rod!

I always thought you had a Dragon? Caradryan is great in a lot of lists. Obviously the MR will help the PG and his special rules can be really useful. Could you have taken a Loremaster? High Magic looks good here but I'd have been tempted to buy the 4+ Ward and stick your Archmage in the PG for 3++ action. I guess avoiding this was a 'toning-down' move? Or were you wary of Dreaded 13th?

Clearly that big Bell unit is going to take some killing, being Unbreakable and all. Always nice to see Rat Ogres though sadly they often achieve little (unless they're toting miniguns). The Weapons Teams look a threat to your infantry. I really hope for his sake that your opponent took the Storm Banner, otherwise the Phoenixes will bring him pain. Both deployments look pretty sensible.

Not sure I agree on the strength of Skaven. In early 8th yes, they were better than HE's. Now though, I'd put them middle of the pack and HE's not far off the top armies. Of course Skaven are always good at killing infantry and you have a fair bit of this Rod. But you seem to have slight advantages in list and player skill which may outweigh this.
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Re: 3500pts battle

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

Thank you, and yes indeed, a substantial undertaking :)

I do indeed have a dragon and running dragon lists is great fun. It was actually one of the earliest models I put together. However, it's not painted yet. When I first got it, I considered my painting level to be not good enough to give it a go. And after that I never got around to it. It's in progress at the moment and actually is my P&M challenge for jan/feb. For the same reason the loremaster was not an option. I've got the model, but no paint on it yet. :)

Caradryan going in the PG (besides being fluffy), was also a tactical choice. Of the infantry units, they are the main battleline block. They are the ones who I expect to do all the heavy lifting and get stuck in. MR helps there to keep them alive. But getting a character in there will also help getting in extra kills. I want Caradryan in the thick of fighting, possibly getting into challenges. The PG are the best bet for that.

It's also the reason why the archmage isn't in the unit. Despite having an archmage with the book it's actually a magic light list. I'll probably get a spell trough, but I can't count on the extra wardsave being there. And then a combat block is not where I want my archmage to be. Range isn't much of an issue. My opponent tends to run his army aggressively. So he's more likely to come to me. And with an infantry based army, I won't be running very far ahead of things. Dreaded 13th isn't an issue. My opponent hasn't picked it. He doesn't like the high casting cost.

The Rat Ogres I can deal with I think. The only thing that shouldn't happen is that I let them charge my DPs. Because that would not be fun. But If I can get the charge on them, then I'm confident they can be dealt with. The bell unit is a worry. Though the main worry is actually the seer on the bell (and the rolls for the bell itself). The 77 rats I can deal with. It might take some time. But I'm confident I can handle the rats pushing the bell. So, step 1 is distracting the bell to give me time to set up multiple charges on the bell unit.

The weapon teams are scary. If left unchecked they can indeed wreak havoc on the infantry parts of the list. My shooting can help here. As can the chariot and eagles perhaps.

I'm not too worried about the powerlevel of my opponents list. I do believe that when tailoring, skaven can make stronger lists then HE. But my opponent isn't very good at making strong lists. This one doesn't contain all the stuff that can bring HE pain. No slaves, only 1 hellpit, no stormbanner etc. My list of worries in my post was perhaps more a list of priorities. The HPA and doomwheel can be dealt with, but if left unchecked they are nasty. The same for his shooting / weapon teams. They can be dealt with but if I don't they can hurt. The 4 units on the other hand, I can simply lead them on and in a straight-up fight I can either deal with them directly or hold them up long enough for help to arrive.

The magic items comment was more jealousy about his choices then anything else. I would love to be able to take the annulian chrystal, the old armour of caledor / vambraces of defence etc. It really reminds you of the items we lost. :)

Time for T1 (yes, I mentioned that 2 times already, but now I'll start typing for real)

Rod
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Re: 3500pts battle

#9 Post by Prince of Spires »

Before I forget, my opponent got 3 warpstone tokens for his seer. Bought 2 and rolled a 1 for total tokens.

Vanguard
The reavers vanguard to the left of the forest in the middle. Their target is the bell unit, and getting it to head left will really mess up his battle line.

Turn 1
My opponent rolls a 6 and gets first turn

skaven T1
Movement
Doomwheel rolls relatively high, gets out of its corner and moves next to the tower. HPA on the other hand rolls low and only stumbles forward some 6''
The rest of the line basically moves straight forward. The clanrats at the top are careful and move only 5'' into the forest, same for the accompanying weapon team. The bell unit, bottom clanrats and rat ogres move up to keep pace with the HPA. The flame thrower weapon team moves to intercept the shadow warriors at the bottom.

Magic
7-4 (PD - DD)
First*, rolling for the bell: brings up a 6, unit moves forward D6, rolls another 6 and moves ahead of the rest of the battleline. *we forgot, so it was actually last in the magic phase, crucial regarding range of spells.
4 dice on the storm spell (the one that grounds flyings and gives -1 to hit to shooting). Rolls a 15. I use all 4 DD and easily make it, even without the book reroll.
3 dice on another spell (can't remember which one). Fails to meet the casting value. So all in all, from my POV a good magic phase.

Shooting
The ZZZzap of the doomwheel is restrained
The top plague mortar shoots at the LSG unit, killing 1
The bottom plague mortar aims at the Dragon Princes, misfires. Rolls a 5 on the misfire chart, which means I can place the shot anywhere within x inches of the original position. Nothing from him is in range, so it scatters to somewhere without doing damage to anything.
The warp lighting canon aims at the PG unit (hoping to bounce through and also hit the chariot behind it. It rolls a 2, a 2 for bounce. It pretty much misses the unit, with its final template covering only 4 models or so. However, he rolls well for wounds (considering he needs 5's and he hits with 4 of them) and I roll terribly for saves. So, 2 PG die.

High Elves T1
Movement
The reavers move up to distract the bell unit. They'll die, but the bell will end up in front of the other rat unit and not do much for a turn.
The shadow warriors at the bottom are too far away (about 15'') to attempt a charge on the cannon. So they move up 5'' (giving me a relatively easy charge next turn), keeping a bit away from the flame thrower.
Bottom eagle moves up next to the rat ogres. from there it can either help in combat with something or go and stand in somethings way.
DP move up to be inside the rat ogre charge range, but only just. It gives them an easy charge on the rat ogres next turn, should keep them from a charge and has a chance of drawing them out (because of the frenzy charge).
Both frosty and the flamespire move up but trade places. This should give the flamespire a fly-over on the bell unit next turn and also potentially gives it a charge on the HPA (where flaming should help). Frosty moves towards the top of the field since it's getting crowded at the bottom and I expect the first (meaningful) combats at the top.
Lion cube moves into the forest, where they can support the rest or take a charge from the HPA.
Spearmen and prince move up a bit but leave plenty of maneuvering room
PG move up aggressively, tempting the HPA but also to get into combat with stuff. LSG move 5'' so they can still shoot but also have a charge if the top rats keep moving forward. Archers stay in place. Eagle moves up to keep the doomwheel busy. And finally, the chariot flies forward behind the tower to be able to support stuff.

Magic
4-3 (I roll 2-2, he channels 1). I go for a 4 dice Convocation on the top rat unit. I roll high, drawing out the scroll. Not a bad return on investment in the first turn.

Shooting
Shadow warriors aim at the flamethrower. They fail to get any wounds.
LSG go for the doomwheel. They fail to get any wounds.
Archers go for the doomwheel. They fail to get any wounds.
RBT goes for the doomwheel. Gets 1 wound
Chariot goes for the weapon team in the forest. They fail to get any wounds.

Which is why I generally don't like shooting... ;)

Giving this battle field at the end of T1
Image

All in all, not a bad T1. Somehow, playing skaven (at least the shooty variety) is always a bit surviving the initial onslaught until stuff starts disappearing off the table. So far, so good. If I can manage to keep the casualty rate at this level for T2 then I'm golden. Most stuff is where it should be I think. We'll see, T2 is still to be played (initial date perhaps Friday...)

Let me know what you think.

Rod
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Re: 3500pts battle

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

I feel the key to your infantry strategy is that your opponent won't bring Dreaded 13th Rod. If he's got that I actually think there's a lot to be said for going Shadow and using it's range to keep your Archmage out of danger. It's also the main issue for the Caradryan/PG unit. He has other dangerous spells, Scorch or Plague for example but the 3++ vs magic fields those nicely. I think the AM is fine in PG, especially vs an army weak in combat like Skaven but it would kind of negate Caradryan's Magic Resistance.

It does indeed look like a war of attrition vs the Bell unit. The good thing is he hasn't used Stormvermin, Assassins etc so minimising the nasty surprises in combat. I agree that all his Rare picks can be dangerous, requiring careful play by you. As for the Crystal, 9th Age awaits!

:)

As for turn one I agree, good going. Could your opponent have kept the Rat Ogres back to defend his Warp Lightning Cannon? Maybe he should have used a Token to ensure he got his second spell through? I presume you've played turn two by now, I'd be wary of charging the Abomination with the Flame Phoenix, double-edged!
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Re: 3500pts battle

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

I do think my opponent not taking dreaded 13th matters a lot indeed. He doesn't like the high casting cost. But I think the risks outweigh the benefits. And him not having it lets me move a lot more freely around the table with my infantry army. Even getting that spell cast only twice in a game can really shift things around.

My opponent did play the ogres very aggressively T1. I think his consideration is that the shadow warriors are not a big enough threat. Or at least one he can handle in other ways. And that baby-sitting the cannon is a waste of their potential. As for the tokens, he either keeps forgetting that he has them, or he's saving them for a random other moment. I would also have used one T1 to get an extra spell through. A bit like compound interest, any extra wins you can achieve at the beginning of the game keep counting later on. So, Those magic phases in the first two turns can really count. I think he does have an assassin hiden somewhere. We'll find out soon enough I guess.

We have started T2. But my opponent again didn't have a lot of time, so we're halfway through my T2 (combat phase remaining). We'll get to it later this week.

But, I can already give you the first part of T2

Turn 2

Skaven Turn 2
Both ambushing units of gutter runners (I think) fail to turn up.

Random movement
The doomwheel, having nowhere else to go, charges the lone eagle
The HPA moves 12'' forward, until it's next to the central forest.

Charges
The Rat Ogres charge the Reavers blocking the bell unit

Other movement:
The top clanrat unit moves 6'' until it's on a line with the bell unit again. The accompanying weapon team moves 3'' to just inside the top forest.
The bell unit stays in place. The only way it can move forward is to charge the reavers and that would leave it horribly out of position. It trusts in the rat ogres to be able to deal with them.
The bottom clan rat unit moves just into the swamp.

Magic
6 - 5 (PD - DD)
Bell rolls an 8 (I think). All the rats in the bell unit reroll to hit for the rest of the turn (or something similarly useless at the moment).
Top warplock engineer casts warp lightning at the LSG. I let him have it. He kills 5 and brings the unit down to 24
Howling warpgale is again dispelled
Another warp lightning is also dispelled

Shooting
The doomwheel ZZZZAP's the eagle to fried chicken
The top mortar scatters off target
The bottom mortar hits the flame phoenix and deals it 1 wound
The cannon aims at the flame phoenix but it doesn't bounce far enough to hit anything
The flame thrower weapon team fires at the shadow warriors. The template moves just far enough and it kills 4 of them. Number 5 panics (on an 9, my whole rolling the night wasn't stellar) and runs towards the board edge. Bad positioning on my part. I should have spread them out more to prevent 4 of them ending up under a template.

Combat
The reavers do their job, which is die without doing any wounds in return on the rat ogres. But, due to their position and a bit careless charging on the part of my opponent, they can't overrun, since that would take them through the bell unit. So, they actually move about a 1/2'' back to put an inch between them and the bell unit again.

High Elves T2
As expected, the lone SW fails to rally on snake-eyes and runs off the board.

Charges
The rat ogres in the middle of the field weren't expected. And leaving them there unhandled will create issues later on. Without a save they die relatively fast. But with 4 attacks each, they can create all sorts of havoc. So, the DPs and the general go into the rat ogres (with the DP's having a flank)
The loss of the SW means that the lone eagle at the bottom is the only one who can deal with the cannon easily. Or at least who can keep it busy for a turn and prevent it shooting. So he charges the canon. Which means that the bell unit is now free to move as it wishes. So the WL's, who are in the forest in front of the bell unit suicide charge into the bell. They have two goals: Kill the grey seer and keep the bell unit in place for at least one more skaven turn. Taking out the grey seer will make a big difference (10 S6 attacks will hopefully do the job), taking stuff down in LD and magic wise. And with stubborn they should be able to hold at least a turn, especially considering they are only 3 wide and thus shouldn't take too many return hits.

The PG charge the HPA. With Caradryan they are in a good position to take it out in a few round of combat (I'm hoping for 1). I guess they will not need help from the flame phoenix. So I leave him out of that combat.

Instead, I decide to charge both phoenixes and the chariot (who doesn't make it) into the top clan rat unit. Two thunderstomping monsters should be able to handle (or at least keep busy) a unit of rats.

Other movement
The spears move up a bit, to fill the hole in the line left by the WL charge. The LSG march towards the doomwheel. They are too far away to charge it. But this way, he can't charge into the frostheart to ZAAAPPP him. And he's better to deal with with infantry then monsters.

Magic
11-6
Big phase. But with a lot of stuff in combat, High magic (and not having a backup caster) shows its weakness. There isn't all that much useful stuff to cast. I start with healing the 1 wound on the flamespire, which goes through.
Hand on the archer unit for BS is dispelled
Tempest, aimed at the top mortar scatters off target (though I now realise I used a small template and not a big one. The big template would have hit ](*,) )
Convocation (on the doomwheel) fails to make the casting value.

Shooting
The LSG are blocking the archers from shooting the weapon team. So the archers gun for the doomwheel and fail to do anything.
The RBT shoots bolts at the doomwheel again and scores another wound.

Combat
As mentioned above, this is still ongoing. We only got 1 combat done, the rat ogres one:
The DP's and general do a whole bunch of kills on the rat ogres (I think they deal 8 wounds total). He in return kills 2 DPs and does a wound on my general which is saved by the golden crown. Together with charge, flank and banner, he needs snake-eyes, which he doesn't get. He runs through the clan rats, who stay in place. All other affected units also pass their panic test. Here my opponent resolved to quickly. My general pursues and I think would have caught them. But he already moved the unit. Rather they argue over it, I let him have it. So, now the rat ogres are fleeing and in between the cannon and the clan rats. And my general ended up in combat with the clan rats (he did get a flank). The DP's hold.

Which gives
Image
This battlefield.

All in all, a pivotal turn. I'm curious to see how it plays out. I think the suicide attempt of the WL on the seer and the PG into the hell pit are the crucial combats now. The rest is nice to have. The eagle has to survive for a turn and then I'm happy. And basically anything the phoenixes do is a bonus. I think at this point resolving the bell combat first is a must. Once the seers LD is out of the picture then everything else should become easier.

I'll let you know how it goes. Battle continues Wednesday.

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Re: 3500pts battle

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

It's true that sometimes 13th simply fails because of the high casting value. But when it goes off it's horrific. Warpstone Tokens are one of those things, like the Potion of Strength, that are easy to forget. I've heard of players using sweets to represent them and eating one each time a Token is used! Lions into the Seer looks a good call. Even if he has a 4+ Ward. A shame about the Tempest template.

So it turns out your opponent had the measure of the Shadow Warriors Rod! I thought he'd use the Rat Ogres because really these are not a front-line unit, as I think their combat showed. I also wondered if he'd shoot the Warp Lightning Cannon at them because it uses a template.

Your LSG seem to be doing a good job. They are just the unit you want targeted with Magic Missiles and as you say, much better against the Doomwheel than your multi-wound options. Again, two Phoenixes should murder clanrats. I'd usually be very wary of fighting an Abomination with infantry but PG with Caradryan are about the best option for this.
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Re: 3500pts battle

#13 Post by Prince of Spires »

Unfortunately no progress. My opponent couldn't make it...

The shadow warrior call was a slightly risky one I think. But a calculated risk. Any number of things could have gone wrong in trying to fend them off (misfire, not rolling high enough for range, not killing enough of them...). But on the other hand, they represented only a small threat and devoting the rat ogres to them would have suited me fine as well. I think the rat ogre unit is 250-ish points in total, compared to the 70 of the SW. And given their frenzy, charging the SW would have taken them off the board in an overrun, which meant that they would spend half the battle to take out the SW unit. Fine by me.

The rat ogres are an interesting unit. They put out a massive number of attacks that can really put the hurt on infantry. If he would have aligned them better and gotten the overrun they could have ended up in the WL unit in the forest. And I don't think the WL would have survived that. Which would have left a hole in my battle line and a rat ogre unit in my back. That could have been nasty.

I definitely don't mind my opponent shooting my LSG. They're fairly expendable. On the other hand, vs skaven is one of the few situations where they can really shine. Putting out 3-4 ranks of ASF s3 attacks can do some serious damage to clanrats. Just as useful as a lower number of higher S attacks. So where a normal opponent can ignore them fairly safely until the rest of the army is dealt with, skaven, especially if they have units only 25-30 strong, need to take them serious.

If the LSG do get into combat with the doomwheel then it can become a long grind. I lack a lot of options to help them out, magic wise. On the other hand, I hope the two wounds already on the doomwheel will help out. And if the phoenixes can get through the clanrat unit in two rounds of combat then I can always charge one in as support if needed in my next turn.

The abomb vs the PG is a bit a calculated gamble. I think they can get through it in two turns or so. And should be able to hold out in most cases. If only my wardsave rolling abilities improve. Somehow I have the worst luck with that against skaven. And Caradryans flaming is a definite bonus (even if it's only for his attacks).

In general, I think I'm slightly in front. Mainly because most combats are around the 50-50 mark but he's lacking back-up options. With the flyers in my list and the still unengaged archers, I have the option to redeploy stuff and also help out here and there. And, if one of the combats end in my favour I can easily shift the troops to help elsewhere. The reverse is not true. He still has 2 units of gutter runners somewhere off the board. But it will be 2 turns before they can help out with anything other then taking out the lone RBT, which is fine by me. Once the Doomwheel is in combat it doesn't have a lot of useful targets anymore...

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Re: 3500pts battle

#14 Post by Doctor »

Remember that Caradryan does D3 wounds pers strike. With some luck he can kill the HPA single-handedly :)
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Re: 3500pts battle

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

Doctor wrote:Remember that Caradryan does D3 wounds pers strike. With some luck he can kill the HPA single-handedly :)
Thanks for the reminder. I had indeed forgotten about that (which just shows how often I use Caradryan...). Which shifts the math from probably kill the HPA in 2 turns to likely kill the HPA in two turns and increases the odds of killing it in one turn from improbable to could do so with some good rolling.

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Re: 3500pts battle

#16 Post by Doctor »

I think he is a really nice choice. Math suggests he will do more wounds on average than all the other PGs attacking the HPA. I guess you have ~25% chance of killing it in one turn (they should do about 4,5 W on average assuming that my understanding of the flamming attack/regen/ASF thing is correct and Caradryan won't strip regen for PGs) :)
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Re: 3500pts battle

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:The shadow warrior call was a slightly risky one I think. But a calculated risk. Any number of things could have gone wrong in trying to fend them off (misfire, not rolling high enough for range, not killing enough of them...). But on the other hand, they represented only a small threat and devoting the rat ogres to them would have suited me fine as well. I think the rat ogre unit is 250-ish points in total, compared to the 70 of the SW. And given their frenzy, charging the SW would have taken them off the board in an overrun, which meant that they would spend half the battle to take out the SW unit. Fine by me.

The rat ogres are an interesting unit. They put out a massive number of attacks that can really put the hurt on infantry. If he would have aligned them better and gotten the overrun they could have ended up in the WL unit in the forest. And I don't think the WL would have survived that. Which would have left a hole in my battle line and a rat ogre unit in my back. That could have been nasty.
I agree that Rat-Ogres are fine offensively. Their problem is defence, with T4 and no saves of any kind. This is why they are rare and not really a line of battle unit. Maybe I'm over-emphasizing this but I'd be really keen to keep the Warp Lightning Cannon alive, it could be a vital threat to those Phoenixes. Even at the expense of having the Rat Ogres do not very much. Obviously I can't see the exact situation as you can Rod but from experience I just don't trust them to stand up to stuff like Dragon Princes.
Prince of Spires wrote:If the LSG do get into combat with the doomwheel then it can become a long grind. I lack a lot of options to help them out, magic wise. On the other hand, I hope the two wounds already on the doomwheel will help out. And if the phoenixes can get through the clanrat unit in two rounds of combat then I can always charge one in as support if needed in my next turn.
I fancy the LSG here. So long as they make the initial test on Steadfast they should win subsequent rounds on static res and probably break the Doomwheel. I don't think it does enough damage.
Doctor wrote:Remember that Caradryan does D3 wounds pers strike. With some luck he can kill the HPA single-handedly
This is certainly true. A lot might depend on whether the Abomination can roll the Flailing Fists attack, in which case it can make 3D6 attacks and probably kill Caradryan. If it can't, my money's on Asuryan.

:)
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Re: 3500pts battle

#18 Post by Prince of Spires »

All right, next part of the battle has been fought (only another skaven turn though, time is always at a premium...)

First, the remainder of my combat phase.

First off, the white lions vs the bell. He has 2 I6 characters in the unit, which go before the WL. He manages to take out 4 of them (between all their attacks), leaving 6 in place for 7 attacks (since there's a champ in there). All attacks go on the seer. I get 5 wounds, he fails 4 wards, 1 dead seer. Remaining attacks don't do anything to the WL. WL lose combat by something (we stopped counting after it was clear they lost since they're stubborn anyway). And I manage to roll a 12 for my breaktest. And since they're also out of BSB range, I have running WL. He pursues. They run 5, he pursues 7, catching them, but also running into the spearelf unit standing behind them. Ok, that wasn't expected...

Then the clanrat unit at the top (since his general is in there). Monsters go first, rolling not very well, getting 3 wounds between the two of them. Thunderstomp (rolling 1-2) gives me another 2 dead rats. He does one wound on the frostheart in return. Not impressed at all. I win combat, but only because I charged... He sticks around on steadfast 9 (or so).

Next combat, the PG vs the HPA. PG go first with 15 attacks + Caradryan's 3. They go to town with 8 wounds and 2 for Caradryan (which multiply into 4). He only makes 2 regens vs the PG attacks, resulting in a very large Hellpit shaped hole in the battlefield. PG decide to stay in place since it offers them the most options. They can either charge into the phoenix combat or charge into the flank of the bell (he would need a big overrun to get out of their range) or even simply march somewhere else.

Lastly, the eagle vs the cannon. The eagle deals a single wound to the cannon crew for non in return. He loses by 2 and because of the overrun of the bell unit is out of BSB range. He fails his break test and blows up. The flamethrower weapon team standing nearby doesn't like its big brother disappearing and also makes a run for it.

All in all, a decent round of combat. The WL running was a bummer, the HPA being destroyed for no wounds in return was a bonus. It's a good tradeoff, especially since the WL took out the seer before running, which means that his magic is not much of a threat anymore. Also, having the PG free to support other units is great. I only wish the phoenixes would have done more (stupid birds)...

Resulting in the following battlefield (though actually the picture was taken after my opponent already started his turn, as can be seen by the running rat ogres at the bottom)
Image

Turn 3

Skaven turn 3
Both units of ambushing turn up. One comes up behind the hill, the other next to the tower at the top.

He fails both rallies. The rat ogres run through the eagle, failing a dangerous terrain test, giving a wound to the moulder in the unit. Both units run to the board edge, but both stay on.

Compulsory moves, the doomwheel makes for the frostheart. I don't think it'll fit between my LSG and his rats. He thinks it does. There is no way to tell, since he mounted the doomwheel on an alternative base (the oval AoS one). I let him have it. He doesn't make it, by half an inch or so and so is moved back to the full 1''.

The only other movement is the weaponteams which move over so they have line of sight to something.

Magic
4-3 and he gets a channel, resulting in 5-3 PD / DD. He can't do anything, since both his warlock engineers are in combat and we play that the skaven spells have the most logical new type, in this case magic missiles for warp lightning. He does however ring the bell. He gets a 12, which is D6 wounds on anything T7 or up, which promptly destroys my RBT.

Shooting
One poison wind mortar scatters off target. The other misfires and I get to scatter it to somewhere. It ends up hitting the doomwheel for another wound.
Lacking another target, both gutter runner units open up on the skycutter. He rolls a huge number of 6's. I fail most armour saves and end up with 1 dead skycutter.
The doomwheel ZZZAAAP's. I have a discussion with my opponent over from where the doomwheel ZZZAAPs. He argues you measure from the front of the unit (which means the frostheart is closest). I argue that it's simply from anywhere on the doomwheels base (which places the LSG just as far away as the frostheart meaning I can chose). I just let him have this one (since I think I'll win anyway and I don't want to ruleslawyer, you have to keep your opponents happy...). He ends up getting 5 wounds on the frostheart. Luckily I manage to make 2 wardsaves leaving the frostheart on 1 wound...

Combat
The 2 characters in the bell unit kill 4 spearmen. The spearmen kill 2 clanrats in return. The rest of the bell unit doesn't kill anything at all. Still, the spearmen run (they needed a 3). He pursues, but fails to catch them. The bell takes a wound from the forest dangerous terrain test.

The clanrat combat with my general at the bottom. An assassin jumps out, pops the potion of strength, challenges and I have to accept. Both are ASF. He wounds with all 4 attacks, leaving me with a dead general. Still, the general, not to be outdone, kills the assassin in return. The clanrats reform to face the DP's

Then the clanrat combat at the top. The phoenixes fail to do any wounds between them (did I already say, stupid birds...?). He aims all attacks he can at the frostheart. But after wardsaves nothing managed to wound. Thunderstomps then save the day, rolling 6-6 and scoring 10 wounds. Still steadfast (3 ranks) he stays around. But it's getting there.

Which results in the following battlefield
Image
Which isn't very different from the earlier picture, except that there are now running spearelves and fewer rats...

Thoughts and musings coming up.

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Re: 3500pts battle

#19 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think I'm in a decent place.

Loosing my general was a bummer, especially since it was completely my own fault he ended up in the position in the first place. Still, he wasn't very pivotal in the battle plan (compared to say a prince on dragon or a cavalry bus prince). And the rest of my army is either high LD, in range of my BSB or both.

The loss of the RBT was pretty much anticipated. And I personally feel it did its job simply by distracting the gutter runners for a turn. A pity it died to something as silly as the bell ringing. But that's skaven I guess.

And the phoenix combat isn't going as fast as I'd hoped. It really does show the difference between a dragon and phoenixes. But also that I have some terrible luck with my dice this game.

On the plus side, the HPA dying for no wounds in return is a massive bonus. I think I will charge the PG into the phoenix combat. With another 15 rats, odds are he'll stick around on steadfast for another turn. I want to prevent that. The PG add the ranks the phoenixes miss and should pretty much end that combat next round. With some luck, it'll help the frostheart run to safety as well. A boosted apotheosis should keep the frostheart alive.

Other things to note, the LSG can just about see the back of the doomwheel (though it will give a bit of arguing again if the really can or not).And only because it had to shift out of the 1'' range of the phoenix. Hopefully that will turn out to be a one sided combat. I should be able to make it run on static combat resolution (3 ranks, 2 banners, flank and charge). And if I do, I should have a nice overrun into the weaponteam behind it.

This leaves the 2 gutter runner units. I'll probably wheel / reform the archers to give me clear line of sight. Hopefully I'll manage to panic one unit off the board. Should be manageable. Especially if magic deals me a nice hand. I should be able to get both in my front arc I think (though one is out of sight...).

I'm debating about what to do at the bottom of the field. I'm wondering if it's wise to charge the DP's into the clanrats. The DPs should take out something like 10 rats for no wounds in return. But that still leaves 3 ranks of them and has them steadfast on 8. The eagle can then also charge into the clanrat combat. It gives more certainty about removing an extra rank, possibly make that combat go faster, especially since the princes are only s3 the turn after.

The other option is to have the eagle charge the weaponteam in the middle (easy charge) and the DP's can then simple swift reform and walk out of sight. With the risk of actually failing the reform roll of course.

Another thing to consider perhaps is that it won't matter too much if the combat takes 2 turns. I don't expect the Bell combat to happen for another 2 turns, which should give me enough time to get the DP's free. And let them either charge in (for a big multi-charge combat) or to charge it bottom of t6 to save the day.

Either way, lots to think about. Let me know what you think.

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Re: 3500pts battle

#20 Post by Doctor »

Prince of Spires wrote: Lastly, the eagle vs the cannon. The eagle deals a single wound to the cannon crew for non in return. He loses by 2 and because of the overrun of the bell unit is out of BSB range. He fails his break test and blows up. The flamethrower weapon team standing nearby doesn't like its big brother disappearing and also makes a run for it.
I think that the Ponderous War Machine rule has been FAQ'ed, it doesn't blow up.

As for Doomwheel, it says that the bolts hit the closest enemy, not the closest enemy measured from the front of the model.

BTW they FAQed almost every page of their book, also including some new things designed to make Skaven stronger - like the slave shooting thing and the above, but they didn't think it's a good idea to FAQ their spells to give them proper spell types etc :( This army can be truly annoying just due to some confusing rules (annoying for both ot the players).
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Re: 3500pts battle

#21 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I think I'm in a decent place.
I agree Rod, good turn.

Killing the Grey Seer was obviously great, even if it cost you the Lions and perhaps the Spears too. Could you have held these back a bit to deny him the Overrun charge? The eagle did it's job, again, could your opponent have tried to kill it first?

Gutter runners do tend to take things out when they turn up but nothing huge here. Sounds unlucky with the Phoenixes, normally they would Thunderstomp infantry into the ground. My last HE game in 8th was pretty much won for me by a charging eagle, it's all about where you apply the pressure!

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Re: 3500pts battle

#22 Post by Prince of Spires »

Doctor wrote:I think that the Ponderous War Machine rule has been FAQ'ed, it doesn't blow up.
Not completely as far as I can tell. They removed the ponderous war machine rule. Which means it now follows the normal rules for warmachines. Which states that "if a warmachine loses combat and fails its break test it is destroyed".

The most annoying thing about the skaven book and the faq is that there simply are soo many rules to keep track of and they indeed missed some obvious things like the spell types.

I agree with you on the doomwheel part. No need to convince me ;) However, my opponent was very set in his point of view arguing from the real world perspective that the bolts shoot out the front and therefore that's where you need to measure from. I know it's not a valid argument as such. But it's hard to convince someone so fixed on his idea. And I didn't feel like rules laywering it. Especially since I tend to know the rules better then him (both general rules but also his army rules). It's meant to be a fun game, so I let him have it.

@SA: indeed, the spearman placement was careless on my part. A lesson for the future I guess. I should have left them 8'' and a bit away from the bell unit, which would have made it an above average pursue move. And anything up to 10'' would have still been an easy charge for the spearmen. I was too aggressive with them.

On the other hand, a better option for my opponent perhaps would have been to hold and reform towards the PG and charge them in his turn. Charge, flank, BSB, 3+ ranks (since the PG would be disrupted), it would have given him a good shot at taking the PG out. Of course, I could have reformed the PG to face the bell unit later on, but we didn't know it at that time (since the HPA combat hadn't happened yet).

I don't think there is much my opponent could have done against the eagle, at least not after positioning it T1. His options would have been holding back the rat ogres (at the start of the game) to deny the eagle room to complete the charge. Or shoot it. I would have considered it a good investment if the eagle managed to die to the cannon shooting. Holding the rat ogres back could have worked. It would have offererd the DP's + general more freedom on the left flank. But it probably would have been worth it.

As for the gutter runners, I'm not too fussed about them just yet. The skycutter was a distraction (like the RBT really). So nothing much lost there. It's a pity I didn't see much action from it. But that's the game. I am now wondering if I should simply ignore the runners and instead focus on the bell unit. Without the seer and with the book on my archmage I have good odds of getting a few spells through next phase (assuming decent winds of course). Getting a convocation and a tempest cast on the bell unit can take out a sizable part of it (even with MR(2) ). It would however mean turning my back on the gutter runners.

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Re: 3500pts battle

#23 Post by SpellArcher »

I've got into the habit of leaving stuff just over 12" away from dodgy combats if I can Rod! Cannon v Eagle depends on circumstances I think, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Going after the Bell unit should seal a big win, if you can pull it off. But yes, it's worth considering exactly what mischief the Gutter Runners might get up to.
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Re: 3500pts battle

#24 Post by Doctor »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Doctor wrote:I think that the Ponderous War Machine rule has been FAQ'ed, it doesn't blow up.
Not completely as far as I can tell. They removed the ponderous war machine rule. Which means it now follows the normal rules for warmachines. Which states that "if a warmachine loses combat and fails its break test it is destroyed".
Ah, sorry. I'm new to WFB and I mixed it up with the panic rule ;)
Especially since I tend to know the rules better then him (both general rules but also his army rules). It's meant to be a fun game, so I let him have it.
Sure, I'm just saying that for me it's rather obvious he is wrong.
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Re: 3500pts battle

#25 Post by Prince of Spires »

Doctor wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Doctor wrote:I think that the Ponderous War Machine rule has been FAQ'ed, it doesn't blow up.
Not completely as far as I can tell. They removed the ponderous war machine rule. Which means it now follows the normal rules for warmachines. Which states that "if a warmachine loses combat and fails its break test it is destroyed".
Ah, sorry. I'm new to WFB and I mixed it up with the panic rule ;)
No worries. We had to look it up twice to be sure about the exact rule as well. It even sometimes happens to much more experienced players. WFB has a lot of rules and often the exact wording matters a lot in some cases. :)

@SA, I'll keep the 12'' away from overruns in mind as a guideline. I was perhaps too confident in my ability to roll an 8 or lower. The overrun could have easily been prevented with more careful positioning.

As for going after the gutterrunners or the bell unit. I keep forgetting that I still have 4 turns left (and not just 3). Reducing the gutterrunners in the next turn (using magic and shooting) removes them as a threat. The bell unit itself is at least 2 turns away from achieving a meaningful combat, so it can be ignored for a turn. The basic idea then is: magic + shoot gutterrunners in my T3. T4 focus magic on the bell unit, position other units in such a way as to give multiple combined charges. T5 charge into the bell unit, try to take it out. It should be the last skaven thing left on the table by then.

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Re: 3500pts battle

#26 Post by Doctor »

How's your game going? :P
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Re: 3500pts battle

#27 Post by Prince of Spires »

slowly...

My opponent was ill the last two times we decided to meet up. And I was away on holiday last week. We've scheduled another day for tomorrow evening. I'll keep you updated on how it goes.

Basic plan for next turn I think: deal with the smaller units of rats, shoot/magic the gutterrunners and divert the bell unit (assuming the spears hold, they will get thrown under the bus...).

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Re: 3500pts battle

#28 Post by Prince of Spires »

Alright, game was fought last night. We even managed to finish. I didn't take a lot of pictures, so I'll just write a lot ;) (and hopefully remember everything that happened...). So, in advance, forgive my rambling. As a reminder, this was the position we ended up with at the end of Skaven T3, with my T3 ahead:
Image

High Elf turn 3
The spears rally, turning around, staring their approaching doom right in the face. At least they'll keep the bell unit busy for another turn.

Charges
The dragon princes and the eagle go into the rat unit at the bottom. The PG go into the clanrats at the top fighting the phoenixes (they just about fit it, getting 2 files of models into the combat). The LSG at the top go into the doomwheel (which is hidden in the picture behind the phoenixes).

Other movement
The archer unit attempts a quick reform, rolls a 10 and is just out of range of the BSB, so a normal reform instead. They turn to face the gutter runners at the top edge of the board, placing the runners behind the hill just inside the front arc (so at least they can be magic-ed).

Magic
Winds come up 6 and 1, I get a channel.
Top priority is healing back the frostheart who is down to one wound. So I go for a boosted apotheosis. The risk for a lucky 6 is too high there. So, 4 dice into it, I roll high, my opponent lets it through and I get 2 wounds back, bringing him up to 3 again.
An attempted tempest on the gutterrunners is dispelled.

Shooting
Nothing can shoot at the moment.

Combat
First the clanrat vs DP+eagle combat. The princes do 10 wounds, the eagle stomps another rat, removing a crucial rank. They kill a DP in return and do nothing on the eagle. They lose big but are steadfast on a 6. He rolls a 7 (hence the rank being crucial) and they run. The eagle pursues and catches them and ends up next to the rat ogres (which he just missed). The DP's reform facing the top of the field so they have the lone weapon team and the bell unit in their front arc.

Then the top clanrats vs the phoenixes and PG. I completely forget that Caradryan is in the unit, so I don't get his attacks (or multiple-wounds vs my opponents general). The PG kill 4 rats. The Phoenixes again manage to miss with all their attacks. Between general and rats he kills 4 PG in return. The Phoenixes then stomp another 6 rats into the ground. With a charge, flank, 3 ranks and 6 more kills he needs snake eyes, doesn't get it and runs. And, crucially, the unit is under 25% of starting size, so it will hopefully keep running. Both phoenixes pursue. But, he rolls well and gets away with 1'' to spare. The PG reform to face the centre of the battle field.

The LSG don't do anything in combat, they take a few casualties in return. But with flank, charge, 2 banners and 3 ranks, they beat the doomwheel and it runs. They reform to face the hill so they can lend a hand to the archers vs the gutter runners in a next turn. The doomwheel rolls wel and ends up on the other side of the forest. The 3 dangerous terrain tests it needs to take (fleeing through a forest and 2 enemy units) do nothing at all.

The small weapon team which is standing above the doomwheel panics and flees towards the top left corner.

And that's the end of my turn. Next post, turn 4 (and possibly more, depending on how fast I type).

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

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Re: 3500pts battle

#29 Post by Prince of Spires »

Turn 4

Skaven turn 4
Rallies (top to bottom)
the weapon team continues running, taking it further to the board edge. The general's unit also keeps running. The doomwheel rallies and pivots to face the centre of the field. The weapon team at the bottom runs off the table. The rat ogres rally and turn to face the battle again.

No charges are declared.

Other movement
Both gutter runners move up to bring the archers within short range, one ends up on the hill, the other next to it. The bell unit pivots to face the PG unit

Magic
winds are 2-2 for 4 PD, 2 DD. Bell does nothing. He goes for the only spell he has left, warp lightning on the LSG unit, I fail to dispel and he kills a bunch of them.

Shooting
The doomwheel can't ZZZAAAP, since it rallied. The gutter runners open up on the archer unit. 40 poisonous shots (hitting on 5's, wounding on 4's). My opponent rolls a silly amount of 6's and a bunch of 5's. End result is that he kills 14 archers. The pass their panic test, thanks to the BSB who ended up in range after the archer reform.
My opponent remembered that he had the doom rocket on one of his warlock engineers and shoots it at the LSG. He overshoots a bit, but still manages to kill a handful of them, bringing them down to 18 models.

No combat

High elf turn 4
Charges
The DP's charge the lone weapon team in the middle of the field. The LSG charge the gutter runner unit standing next to the hill. Two reasons here, 1 it takes care of one unit of runners and 2 it takes them away from the bell unit so they don't get charged. The frostheart charges the generals unit and chases it off the field (dangerous terrain wound is wardsaved).

Movement
The PG manage to just wriggle past and out of line of sight of the bell unit (though reflecting on it I think we played it wrong here).
The spearmen walk a short distance up the field, following the bell unit so that they can support any combat the bell unit gets into or they can stall it in a next turn. The archers walk back a short distance to increase the room between them and the runners on the hill (so they are in long range).
The eagle again does what it's there for, and goes to stand in front of the rallied rat ogres, patiently waiting to die.
The flamespire flies over the bell unit, killing 11 of them with wake of fire.

Magic
winds are 6-3, I get another channel for a 10PD - 6DD phase.
I heal another wound on the phoenix (2 dice). I cast tempest with IF on the gutter runners killing 2 or 3 of them (3 dice). Miscast comes up with a 5 killing 2 more archers and dealing a wound on the archmage and losing me 1 PD. I fail to get the casting value for convocation (rolling 1-1-1-3).

Shooting
shooting takes care of another 2 runners

Combat
The DP's rip through the weapon team, reform to face both the doomwheel and the bell unit.
The LSG + seahelm kill 4 runners, take 1 death in return and send the runners running. They flee through the other gutter runner unit on the hill, panicking it off the table.
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
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Re: 3500pts battle

#30 Post by Prince of Spires »

turn 5 and 6 probably fit in a single post.

Turn 5

Skaven turn 5
The weapon team at the top surprisingly rallies and faces the battle again. The gutter runners continue running and flee off the board.

The doomwheel charges the DP's and just makes it in.
The rat ogres charge the eagle who holds

The bell unit once again quick reforms to face the PG, hoping for a lucky bell charge to net some points.

Magic
winds 6-4, I get a channel for a 10 - 7 phase
He casts warp lightning on 6 dice, I dispel with 7.
As we move to the shooting phase, he mentions forgetting to ring the bell and I let him do it anyway. The bell unit gets the result (I think a 9) which gives a cracks call bound spell. He uses the 4 remaining dice he had left and since I didn't have any DD dice left it passes (had I known this was an option I could have blocked it, since his warp lightning cast was low and I simply threw the dice since he didn't have anything else to do anyway). Surprisingly it destroys the tower at the top but leaves the ruin at the bottom intact. It kills 3 more PG (since I probably failed all my 4+ ward saves last night)

Shooting
The Doomwheel ZZZAAAAPs 2 DP's, leaving 4 of them.

Combat
Doomwheel combat: He gets 3 impact hits. Kills 1 DP. They do no wounds in return. He wins combat by 3, I hold on a 6.
Rat Ogres: The rat ogres kill the eagle, for 1 wound in return. They reform to face the middle of the field.

High Elf turn 5
Charges
The PG charge the doomwheel in the flank.
The spearmen and the flamespire charge the bell unit in the rear, to keep it in place and prevent it from doing any mischief in the final skaven turn.

Other movement
The LSG, frostheart and archers move up to threaten the bell unit in case I decide to try and get some points from it in the final turn with a massive charge.

Magic
Winds give 2-2 for 4PD / 2 DD (and, more crucially, -1 S for the flamespire). I cast hand of glory on the spearmen for +1 WS.

Shooting
Nothing left to shoot

Combat
Doomwheel combat: The doomwheel grinds a PG to its death. The PG do 1 wound in return (this time I did remember Caradryan, he hit with his 3 attacks and fails to wound with all of them). The DP's don't do anything. I have a charge, flank, banner and 2 ranks (and 1 wound each). He runs. The DP's pursue to make sure this time it dies. Both the doomwheel and the DP's end up off the field. The PG reform to face the rat ogres for the odd chance of them making a very long charge.
Bell combat: The spearmen take only 2 wounds from the characters who make way and nothing from the other 2 rats. The Spearmen kill some rats in return, as does the flamespire (mainly with his thunderstomp), for a total of 6 kills. I surprisingly actually win combat but he's unbreakable. He passes his combat reform roll and faces the spearmen/flamespire.

Turn 6

Skaven turn 6
He attempts the long charge on the PG with the rat ogres and doesn't make it. They walk 4''

Magic
Winds give 4-3 (for +1A for the phoenix), no spells get cast.

Shooting
The weapon team at the top opens up on the LSG, scores a hit and kills 5 of them (which is about as much as the rest of the battle combined). They pass their panic test.

Combat
The spearmen continue killing rats. He kills a lot of spearmen, bringing them down to 8 models, the flamespire again kills a few rats. This time I lose combat by 3 and fail to pass any of the LD 5 break tests, even with a BSB reroll for both of them. He pursues the spearmen hoping to catch them and / or overrun into the archers (which would have been a long run on a 10). The spearmen get away comfortably with 9'', he pursues 7''.

High elf turn 6
DP's come back on the field. Just for the fun of it I charge the PG into the rat ogres. They would have easily survived any return attacks and had a decent chance of netting some points on them. They fail to make it in. I decide not to do anything else. With what's left on the table I have easily won. And there is no way I'll kill all the rats + the bell in a single round of combat. So, we call it a night.

End result
A shot of the final battlefield:
Image
Note, the 3 DP in the middle bottom actually came back on the left board edge, we were too lazy to move them, given that they wouldn't do anything anymore anyway.

He had left
- bell unit
- rat ogres
- weapon team

I had left a lot (with some seriously depleted units). In the end what died was:
- my general
- unit of reavers
- skycutter, shadow warriors, White Lions
- 2 eagles and 1 RBT

So pretty much everything that was put in the list to die did so.

Adding up points, I have lost 950-ish points vs my opponent losing 1650 pts. So a win (big win or whatever you want to call it) for the HE.

Some thoughts and conclusions will follow later.

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
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