2400 colabrarative tournament list help

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Marsque
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2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#1 Post by Marsque »

Greetings not quite sure how to start this so I'll explain as best I can. I want you people to know I fully respect all you guys have done here and although its my first post I have read many reports lists and discussions. Now I'm looking for help

In April this year I will be joining a tournament its 2400 points no end times but other wise normal rules. As a avid gamer I have many armies but really enjoy high elves. The looks and feel but never played at this level of points. Max points I have played is 1000.

Now on my own I can make a list but each one I have made has been critazised by our gaming group as not tournament worthy.

We expect to see a lot of warriors of chaos, dark elves and lots of mounted death star like cavalry like bretonions empire

So I come asking for help I'll list the models I have and couple setups I like and I am hoping as a community we can get me a list that has potential.

I have the following
60 spearmen
60 archers
40 sword masters
42 white lions
4 bolt throwers
42 pbheonix guard
10 dragon princes 10 more I could assembly
4 eagles
Various wizards mounted and not
Dragon and rider
Griffon and rider
Eagle and rider

Builds I like and have used in past

Noble on eagle sword of might dragon armour and shield off mer (4+ parry)
Prince on dragon with armour of caledor star lance and helm of stubborn
I used the white lions with banner of world dragon 2+ vs missiles and magic was fun they got killed fast in melee vs chaos warriors
I have used the spear men as one big unit just a shame they need life magic to get the best as I love high magic


So people with these available models what 2400 list would you make for a tournament to be competitive I could spend more but if I am it needs a solid reason to do so.

As for tactics I'm flexible I have done msu, death star and skirmish I just want to have a chance

Many thanks

Marsque
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Hi Marsque and welcome to Ulthuan!

:)

A few ideas:

Prince, Star Dragon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown, Shield, Other Trickster's Shard
Archmage, Lvl4, High Magic, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury
BSB, Eagle, 4+ Ward Armour, Lance, Shield, Lion Cloak

30 Archers, Full Command
5 Silver Helms (proxy Dragon Princes), Shields, Musician, Std
5 Silver Helms (as above)

24 White Lions, FC, World Dragon

4 RBT

If not playing under 50% Lords, you would need to swap the Archmage out for two Mages.
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#3 Post by Prince of Spires »

Welcome to Ulthuan Masque :)

I think there are quite a few options you can take with those models. A lot of which can be viable. The first question is indeed, are you playing with 25% or with 50% lords?

Then, the list probably also depends on what your goal for the tournament is. Do you want to have a chance to compete and have fun, or do you absolutely want to win the tournament? The reason for asking is that there are a lot of lists that are strong and viable. But the top tournament players (players like Curu Olannon, he has an army blog in the army blog forum), generally believe that besides a strong list you also need a very dependable list. Which limits the choices quite a bit.

But if you want to have a fighting chance in most games and have fun, then there are 3 routes you can take I think:
- Cavalry bus; probably the strongest HE choice, but hard to master
- Magic heavy: generally more defensive in nature
- Monster mash list: dragons, what's not to like :)

Going from the monsters you have I would play a dragon list (same as Spellarcher). But slightly different. The framework of the army would be
- Prince on stardragon (a stardragon is definitely preferable over the others), Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown, Shield, Other Trickster's Shard, heavy armour, lion cloak, great weapon

- BSB, Eagle, ogre blade, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, lion cloak, luckstone

- 2* 15 archers, musician
- 3* 5 Silver helms (DP proxy)

- 20 Phoenix Guard, full command, razor banner

- 4 RBT

I haven't added up the points, but this gives a solid base to add stuff to. The prince is a sledgehammer. He (and especially the dragon) will kill most things they come in contact with. The BSB is great support and highly mobile. The core is aimed at shooting light stuff to give you better board control, and the silver helms are there to die while keeping strong stuff busy.

4 RBT give you some very serious ranged firepower. It will keep characters and monsters honest. Though you could drop it to 3 if you need to free up some points. I wouldn't go lower then that, though you could of course drop all 4 of them for something completely different.

The 20 PG are a very serious unit. With I6 and ASF, they reroll against any non-characters without ASF. And even against a lot of characters. It's not uncommon to get 18 hits out of them. The razor banner means that they pack a serious punch against anything not 1+ armour save. And they simply will not die. They are a threatening unit in their own right. And horrible to face if you beef them up with magic.

There should be enough points left over for magic support, either an archmage or 2 lvl 2 mages (as SA mentions). You will want at least 1 scroll in the army. Getting rid of 1 spell is golden in a tournament. The left over points can be used for white lions, more PG or, if you feel like adding a model, a phoenix. A frostheart will add some very serious punch to the army.

Hope this helps.

Rod
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#4 Post by Marsque »

Thanks for the swift reply

I was under the impression that melee needed to be big blocks to survive the onslaught of things like witch elves, chaos warriors and such maybe this is where I am going wrong.

I love the idea of Prince as I posted I do like the hero on a mount able to hold his own I will play test this list and let you know how it works

Are spear men just not that good I have tried them many times but the 5+ and str 3 just seems weak when you put them against most other units.

Also one last question phoenix guard vs white lions is there a unwritten rule for when to take one other the other. I tried running both didn't fair well
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#5 Post by Marsque »

Out of interest what is the I want to win list
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

High Elf elite infantry are pretty functional in medium-sized units. As Rod says, Phoenix Guard are good at not dying. You could consider deploying a High Magic Archmage with them because if he gets any spells off their Ward save goes to 3+, very hard for the enemy to deal with. PG are decent against most things but especially good against elves and similar high-damage, low-defence troops. White Lions can be better against tougher and slower enemies because of their Strength 6. Stubborn lends your army reliability. Spears are not often taken for the reasons you give Marsque. When they are present, it's usually in a 5-wide 30-40 strong block to retain and break Steadfast. Can be good in a defensive infantry list.

The lists we've posted are fairly similar and both are competitive.
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

Marsque wrote:Out of interest what is the I want to win list
It's the cavalry prince bus deathstar list.

Basically,
prince on steed, items
BSB, banner of the world dragon
Arch(mage) (mounted), shadow, Book of Hoeth

A big unit of Silver helms, all characters go here. This gives a unit with a 2+ armour save, a 2+ ward save vs magical wounds. It can cast with pretty without fear of miscasting, since it gets a 2+ ward vs any miscast damage

Add 2 small units of reavers for board control and redirecting
With whatever points you have left over, add 4 RBT, a frostheart or white lions (in 1 big block).

That's about as strong a list as you can get out of the HE book I think. Quite a one dimensional list. But in an uncomped environment it can roll over other armies. And it contains everything that has given the HE book a bad name with some players.

Rod
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#8 Post by Marsque »

The list I was looking at was
Prince star dragon
Lvl 4 hoeth scroll
Bsb great weapon heavy armor lion cloak
4 rbt
2x 15 archers
10 silver helm
30 white lions
2 eagles

If the death star is better how big does the helm unit need to be I like the idea of 2+//2++ always looked at pg or lions for banner but bus sounds fun

Is it possible to do bus with noble and still have dragon. I'm thinking make multiple high value targets but if the list is tried and tested why mess
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

This is an example from Curu's blog on this site:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081

Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Heavy armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed, Ironcurse Icon = 135
Heroes = 596, Characters = 1194

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion = 90
Core = 653

3x1 Repeater Bolt Thrower = 210
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
2x1 Great Eagle = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2397

Raw power of a list is not enough though Marsque. You need to learn how it works too. If possible, I would include elements you are comfortable with (like the dragon).
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#10 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:Raw power of a list is not enough though Marsque. You need to learn how it works too. If possible, I would include elements you are comfortable with (like the dragon).
This is the main thing. The reason Curu had a lot of succes with this list wasn't just because it was a strong list. But more importantly also because he did extensive testing with this and similar lists. He played a star dragon type list for several years. So he knew the strengths and weaknesses of the playstyle. The list from Curu was optimized for his playstyle and the environment he played in (mainly ETC). So, results may vary.

The list you mention looks good enough to try I think. The Silver helm unit is perhaps a bit small. But as support it's a good start. And you can't really go wrong with 30 WL. The 2 eagles are a must, given that you don't have reavers in core and you need the board control with this type of list.

Small point, the lvl 4 archmage can't take both the book of hoeth and a scroll. They're both arcane items and you're only allowed one.

Give it a try and let us know how it goes. :)

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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#11 Post by Marsque »

Ah yes i overlooked the book and scroll

lvl 4 vs 2 lvl 2 ... another good debate

Yeah i miss the reavers so im thinking sub them with archers and use the eagles as misdirects


will be play testing a list tonight (need to pick between the 3 i have) luckily my opponents that i can play have dark elves and chaos so i can see what its like vs high armour and speed

im leaning away from the lions looking at them again and again yes the 2+ vs missiles is nice but vs a group of warriors or witch elves i just think i will get wiped pretty fast, other elves will go first, chaos we attack same time so even match there a unit of 18 will get 16 attacks if 6x3 block vs my 21 attacks.

looking at it that way phoenix guard do look better, we retain ASF str 5 and mage could raise the ward save 3++

i will play test and see theory craft can only get me so far

again thank you for all the help will report how i get on
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#12 Post by Marsque »

This is the army i will test, i read through the posts of Curu and i can see the time and effort put in there. Fantastic. also the breakdown of units and discussion as to use and benefits has helped me realize alot of why i struggled in games. On paper yes it looked good in game the drawbacks made the unit hurt itself. so borrowing alot of what he made the list below is what i think i will try next.
Another variation is drop the reavers and take archers, not sure if the eagles alone will be enough. i am lucky to have some unpainted woodelf glade riders so i can use them as reavers if needed. the noble on the eagle i got as inspiration from my darkelf player who uses a pegasus and i thought surely we must be able to compete ... what do you think ?


Lords (604pts)
Prince (604pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield, Star Dragon
Magic Items
AB - Golden Crown of Atrazar, AB - Star Lance, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard




Heroes (758pts)
Mage (155pts)
Elven Steed, High Magic, Wizard Level 2
Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll

Mage (135pts)
Elven Steed, High Magic, Wizard Level 2
Magic Items
BRB - Ironcurse Icon

Noble (172pts)
Heavy Armour, Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Lance, Shield
Battle Standard Bearer
AB - Banner of the World Dragon

Noble (131pts)
Heavy Armour, Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Shield
Magic Items
BRB - Ogre Blade

Noble (165pts)
Dragon Armour, Great Eagle
Magic Items
AB - Shield of the Merwyrm, BRB - Sword of Might




Core (653pts)
Ellyrian Reavers (85pts)
5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Bow

Ellyrian Reavers (85pts)
5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Bow

Ellyrian Reavers (85pts)
5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Bow

Silver Helms (398pts)
Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
16x Silver Helm
16x Shields




Rare (380pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Great Eagle (50pts)
Great Eagle (50pts)
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

Basically it looks fine to me.

It looks like you're playing 50% Lords and Heroes, else the Prince is illegal for going over 600pts. So it could be better to take a lvl4 instead of 2 x lvl2 next time. It's generally a good idea to add Enchanted Shield and Luck Stone to the Ogre Blade guy. Merwyrm shield is no good on an Eagle because Parry is only usable on foot, per the main rulebook pg 88.

Witch Elves are an utter nightmare for White Lions, your army would need to use it's other tools. Heavily armoured stuff can be good against them but 3++ PG are not bad and of course are good against most things. The Archmage would need to go on the end of a 7x3 or 8x3 formation to avoid taking too many hits. Convocation is great against WE's if you can get it off as are most ranged attacks, if you have the luxury of being able to target them. The problem vs DE's generally is that there are always lots of other threats (Warlocks etc) demanding attention.
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#14 Post by Prince of Spires »

The list looks fine to me too. I say give it a try and see how it goes.

Personally I run more character light. Yes, character offer some great force concentration in a small area (something elves are generally good at and need to do). But I always feel I'm paying too many points for average stats. Just to consider, those 300points in extra nobles (you do need a BSB and I would personally mount him on an eagle) can also get you 10 dragon princes (incuding musician) or 20 White Lions with full command.

That's 6 S5 attacks and 4 wounds vs 17 s5 attacks (for the DPs) and 10 wounds or 20 s6 attack and 20 wounds. For me that's a reason not to field the nobles. But, YMMV. And I know I generally have a different opinion about this then many HE players.

Optimizations to the list could be dropping the bows on the reavers. 15 s3 shots will not do a lot. At least they never do for me. Especially since the reavers will be marching a lot and thus can't shoot. If you plan on fleeing a lot with the reavers, consider giving them musicians. That would effectively let them rally on a 9. Which is great if they are often away from your general and BSB. If you want to free up some more points, you could also drop a silver helm. But that probably requires some testing to find the ideal size of them for you. Alternatively you could actually drop a whole unit of reavers take some extra SH's to fill out core.

Another optimization to consider is dropping the two eagles. With 3 units of reavers (or even 2), you should have enough redirectors, especially since the important parts of the list will be flying. If you're playing a few games I would also test to see if 3 RBT is enough or if you really want the 4. If three is enough and you drop the eagles then that's another 170 points you can spend on some fun stuff. If you then also drop 1 unit of reavers, drop the bows, add musicians to the reavers and 1 Silver helm (to make min-core requirements), that's another 53 points saved for 223 points total.

With those 223 points you can do a lot of fun stuff. With the models you have, I would probably add them in as WL's. Assuming models are no issue, then I would find another 17 points somewhere and add in a frostphoenix (which would really augment this list). If you think you can save some more points, then I would add a unit of 15 PG with full command and the razor banner (for 300 points). But that's just some options.

About witch elves and the like, the thing to keep in mind is that there is always (or almost always) some unit out there that will just rip through your unit, no matter how strong. One of the tricks of the game is to get into the combats that you want. If you can fight on your terms you win, if the other player dictates who fight what then he wins. Just because there are one or two units that can kill white lions is, that's not a reason not to bring them. Rather, it something to consider in deployment and also something that you can use to your advantage (for instance for setting up a trap).

But with your list, with 5 redirectors, you should only be fighting combats you want to fight. So, for a big unit of witch elves, the game would look roughly like: T1 move forward 10'', you place eagle 1'' in front of the unit, angled to no-where. T2, they charge the eagle, you hold. They move 1'' and kill the eagle, and overrun to where they don't want to go. Your T2, if they are still in a reasonable position you place your second eagle 1'' in front of them. T3, they either reform and don't go very far or they charge the eagle, you hold. They move 1'' and kill the eagle and run even further. In your T3, you place a unit of reavers either 1'' in front of them if they are still to close to stuff, you place the reavers in such a way that they can't reform in a useful manner or you ignore them. Their T4, they try to make something of the situation after having killed 100pts and gotten nowhere. The battle should be reasonably over by this point or too far away from them to matter. In the mean time, you should have killed the rest of his army and set up a charge with multiple units on te witch elves. They might be good at killing WL's, but try finding out how they like taking a star dragon to the flank.

The same you can do with other deathstar units, of the non-frenzied kind. They move, you place an eagle or reaver unit 1'' in front of them. They charge, you hold, they don't get very far. This way, the big, expensive deathstar unit has gotten nowhere, done nothing worthwile beside kill stuff that is in your list simply to be killed. With sacrificing 3 units you can make a unit move a grand total of 3'' for half the game. The trick with HE is to fight little portions of your opponents army with a lot of yours. Overwhelming force and all that.

In short, witch elves (or elves in general) are probably a worst case scenario for WL. Elves fighting each other are generally quite bloody affairs simply because everyone goes at the same time. But in general, HE units go before other stuff, and kill a lot. That's something to keep in mind as well.

Sorry for the long post. Got carried away a bit...

Rod
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#15 Post by Doctor »

Prince of Spires wrote: Optimizations to the list could be dropping the bows on the reavers. 15 s3 shots will not do a lot. At least they never do for me. Especially since the reavers will be marching a lot and thus can't shoot.
I think that fast cavalery can shoot and march :)

I have little experience in the game, so far the bows on reavers (one unit in a low point game) were quite effective in killing of Skaven weapon teams (mostly due to them having only 1W). Other than that I do feel it doesn't change much (on other hand it's only 5 points).
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#16 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:And I know I generally have a different opinion about this then many HE players.
Curu's bus above is slightly unusual in that it's not a full-on aggressive tool IMHO. Instead it's about preserving points, setting up spellcasting and opportunity charges. If we want to go all-in a Prince is probably necessary in the bus to take on the really hard enemy characters and such. I'd say he needs at least one Noble as support. This can be the BSB but if you take World Dragon he's a bit vulnerable so you then might want another Noble to push him to the second rank of a 5-wide formation, where he will be joined by any mages.

I agree the Eagles are non-essential. Rod's point about redirecting the Witch Elves holds (even more so because they have to Overrun being Frenzied) but the Reavers can cover that. 4 RBT's is a bit dull but very functional. I personally think a Frost Phoenix would do more for this list than the Eagle Noble but he's worth a try.
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#17 Post by Marsque »

thanks for the posts this is exactly what i hoped to get from posting

i dont want to spend on a frostfire just yet when i have other options to explore

Yes there is alot of points on heroes ill have a play with the list and see how it fairs maybe 2 blocks is better

quick redo (i love battlescroll)

Lords (604pts)
Prince (604pts)
Heavy Armour, Shield, Star Dragon
Magic Items
AB - Golden Crown of Atrazar, AB - Star Lance, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard
Heroes (573pts)

Mage (155pts)
Elven Steed, High Magic, Wizard Level 2
Magic Items
BRB - Dispel Scroll

Mage (135pts)
Elven Steed, High Magic, Wizard Level 2
Magic Items
BRB - Ironcurse Icon

Noble (172pts)
Heavy Armour, Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Lance, Magic Items, Shield
Battle Standard Bearer
AB - Banner of the World Dragon

Noble (111pts)
Heavy Armour, Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Shield
Magic Items
BRB - Sword of Might


Core (668pts)
Ellyrian Reavers (90pts)
Musician
5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Spear (Mounted)

Ellyrian Reavers (90pts)
Musician
5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Spear (Mounted)

Ellyrian Reavers (90pts)
Musician
5x Ellyrian Reaver
5x Spear (Mounted)

Silver Helms (398pts)
Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
16x Silver Helm
16x Shields


Special (345pts)
Phoenix Guard (345pts)
Champion, Musician, 21x Phoenix Guard, Standard Bearer


Rare (210pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)

spot on 2400 points i lost the 2 eagles, a noble and bolt thrower, the bows on reavers but gained 21 PG or swap PG for 24 white lions full command
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#18 Post by SpellArcher »

The PG probably want Razor Standard, vital against 1+ Armour Saves for example. They might get a little isolated from the faster elements here but they're a better fit than Lions I feel. The latter badly need World Dragon but so does the bus.
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Re: 2400 colabrarative tournament list help

#19 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:The PG probably want Razor Standard
This, very much so. It makes quite a difference. Even against 5+ as models it matters. It's the difference between 14 and 12 kills. And only more so vs more heavily armoured stuff out there. What's more, it just makes buffing them an even scarier prospect for your opponent.

I agree that PG are a better fit in this list then WL. They're more survivable and I always feel less in need of backup. With ASF, they are also a lot more reliable then WL. They shred anything not high T or high armour. So, I think they're a good pick to complement the dragon. To make room for the razor banner, I would drop a single SH and either shave some points here and there or drop 1-2 PG.

Rod
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