Some advice to a "new" player please :)

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Strategos
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Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#1 Post by Strategos »

Hello fellow Ulthuanites,
My name is Marco, I've played High Elves (rather sporadically) since 1996 - but have had a 10 years gap and only just restarted with 8th edition rules. (yes, I know, I might as well learn 9th age directly but hey).

I've recently played 2 games against the same player (VC), and suffered a marginal defeat on each (or possibly a draw and a marginal defeat - we weren't too bothered to account for points).

Therefore my post: I'd like some advice on army builds and tactics so I can hopefully win :p.

Armies were 2500 pts, my opponent had:
1 Vampire Lord (Fencer's blades, Quick blood, fear incarnate, probably a ward save)
1 master necromancer (4th lvl, General, Book of Ashur, probably a ward save) - but can it even be the general given Ld???

1 Wight King (BSB, screaming banner)
2 or 3 necromancers with various objects

20x skeleton warriors FC (with magic banner - can't remember which)
20x skeleton warriors FC
20 zombies
5 dire wolves

2 fell bats
20 grave guards FC
5 Hexwraiths
3x spirit host bases

mortis engine
terrorgheist

I had:
Prince (ithilmar mounted steed, dragon armour, shield, dawnstone, giant blade, the other trickster's shard) - General
Archmage (lvl4, BoH, ToP - life)

Mage (lvl2, dispel scroll, ring of fury)
Noble (BSB, ithilmar mounted steed, dragon armour, shield, lance, BotWD)

14 archers
12 Silver Helms FC (shields)
5 Reavers (musician)
5 Reavers (musician)

5 Dragon Princes (FC, Banner of Eternal Flame)
12 White Lions (FC)

2 RBTs
5 Sisters of Avelorn
1 Frostheart Phoenix.

On both occasions I noticed the following:
- I had substantially less drops - affecting my deployment;
- I made basic mistakes on deployment both times around:
- first time my SH with Gen & BSB were deployed to the far side - so my whole army was outside their Ld bubble
- second time Sisters of Avelorn (SA) were on the wrong side of the deployment - rendering them useless against Hexwraiths
- I made basic mistakes in spell selection e.g.
- first time I swapped a useful spell (for my AM with Earthblood (knowing I didn't intend to have him with fighting regiments)
- My heavy cavalry generally CRUSHED the undead troops - however I failed getting timely support to the SHs.
- My SH stayed in combat for 3 turns before being crushed, surrounded on all sides and constantly winning combat resolution, until in the end there was only one left alongside general and bsb...
- My phoenix did absolutely nothing; first time around I didn't get her in combat (worried about the terrorgheist), second time it was annihilated by the terrorgheist scream
- My RBTs were annihilated by the Hexwriaths charge; there were no suitable options to counter them.
- My prince rained wounds on the enemy - but his challenges were answered by anything from skeleton champion to wight king (i.e. not the vampire, which I could have taken out)
- the BotWD saved a lot of wounds (but I am expecting his vampire lord not to have a magic weapon next time around)
- the SA were absolutely useless; was it a matter of poor deployment, lack of numbers, both, or something else?

With the above in mind, can anyone help by suggesting effective army builds and lores/magic item selections as necessary?
I am currently a fan of cavalry lists - but I'm not so hung up on it so as to ignore other good options which, with a little re-jigging, can be reused against other enemies (battle with dwarves coming up soon). BTW I've read most posts about army builds - I just need to adapt the various (very good) ideas I've seen to my playstyle...or the other way around.

I also have an amended army in mind...but don't want to bias too much any advice from you guys (and besides I don't want to bore you with too many options;)

Thanks for any answers - best,
Marco
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Welcome Marco!

:)

Some of your problems seem to stem from not getting enough support to your cavalry. I suggest taking an elite infantry unit, either Lions, Swordmasters or PG, at least 20 strong. You're going to get out-deployed, so deploy this reasonably centrally and head straight for the enemy. Deploy the cavalry near it but probably slightly to one flank or the other. That way the two units can support each other no matter how the enemy deploys.

I would choose magic lores that will give you a couple of magic missiles and try to keep a mage available to cover your RBT (Ruby Ring might be better than Fury for the 24" range). These should probably be deployed on the baseline for added safety, they can still probably target the Terrorgheist from there. Your Archers can also chip wounds off it if they can get into range. More difficult with the Sisters, in my experience 24" shooters are best just off-centre but they're unlikely to be able to choose what they get to shoot at.

I believe the Vamp Lord has to be the General because of his Ld 10.
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#3 Post by Nicene »

Sisters are definitely your best tools for wounding the TG, but unfortunately, as SA pointed out, they'll be in range of his scream if they're close enough to shoot. TG can't march if it starts its turn more than 8" (12"? can't remember) from the Vampire Lord, so keep that in mind.

Lore of Life won't help you much in this MU. I guess it's good for your cavalry bus? I remember Life being popular with the Cavalry Bus in 8th edition, but now I can't remember why... Lore of Light is great vs. VC :twisted: but if you're not into list-tailoring (and I'm not either), Loremaster is a good choice to go in your elite infantry. A single 5+ cast of Shem's Gaze will obliterate his Hexwraiths (of course the Sisters will smash them too). And a boosted cast should put a big hurt on things like the TG. Might even kill it in one shot.

Dealing with his ethereals can be a pain without good static resolution. Your only unit with ranks is the Helms, and even that unit is a little thin. I think I'd either drop the Archers to 10 in order to add a couple Helms, or drop one of your characters in order to bulk up the Lions. Another idea is to add Standards to the Reavers. A flank charge from the reavers into a unit of Ethereals will win by 2-3, and they may be able to melt the unit in two rounds and then combat reform at the end of the opponent's turn.

As for your overall style, I see you've basically selected a popular list from 8th edition and run with it. Hence the 12 Helms with Prince and BSB inside. This is definitely a powerful unit, but one that as you've discovered requires surprising finesse to use well, especially against a foe that can just bog it down for turn after turn. With a build like that, you're basically putting most of your eggs into one big basket, whereas a more diverse approach might be easier. Not saying your list is bad, but that it's one designed to require practice and good game understanding to use well! And eagles.

One final thought: remember that your characters don't have to go in the units that you've "destined" them for. So if you drop the Dragon Princes on the left flank and the Helms in the middle/right, and then it looks like your Prince might do more good in the Princes this game, it's okay to adapt on the fly and deploy him there (just watch out for the TG scream haha). And of course they can move between units or even go solo during the middle of the game as well. Prince with 1+ rerollable (although looks like you only have 2+ armor save, since you have the OTS on him) can destroy many units on his own, as long as he's save from snipes from the TG.

In the end, I guess it all comes back around to the TG and how to deal with it. . .
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#4 Post by Strategos »

Thanks SpellArcher and Nicene - much appreciated!

Yes I think the key learning points were supported charges, contingency to deal with the Hexwraiths (HW), something to deal with the TG.

Before reading your responses I was thinking about some small changes for the next attempt, something like:
- Prince (Ithilmar barded steed, dragon armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone, giant blade, potion of foolhardiness) - General
- Archmage (lvl4, BoH, Golden Crown Atrazar - light)

- Mage (lvl2, dispel scroll, ruby ring of ruin)
- Noble (BSB, Ithilmar barded steed, dragon armour, shield, lance, Khaine's ring of fury, dragonhelm, luckstone)

- 13 archers, musician
- 15 Silver Helms FC (shields)
- 5 Reavers (musician, standard bearer, bows&spears)

- 5 Dragon Princes (FC, Banner of Eternal Flame)
- 17 White Lions (FC, Banner of Swiftness)

- 2 RBTs
- 1 Frostheart Phoenix
- 1 Great Eagle
- 6 Sisters of Avelorn

Does this look more reasonable? (any advice welcome).

Questions:
1) do you think I ought to lose the Sisters of Avelorn (SA) in favour of one extra RBT? That'd give more punch to my shooting phase and help against the TG (SA would only wound on a 6), but would lose my main response to the HW. What I could use as an alternative to take care of HW are the phoenix (assuming I manage to avoid getting stuck this time around) and/or (as you suggested) Reavers with standard (although risky - HW attack at strength 5).
2) I've added some silver helms and white lions by losing one regiment of reavers. White lions could deal with TG in 1 turn, provided I can get them in CC. Maybe this would require some magical support though (e.g. walk between worlds) - which I'm currently not very confident on (had challenges getting spells through...).
3) I am planning to use lore of light on both mages - should work well against VC and synergises with a number of units in my list. However I'm wondering whether I would missing out on important support from, say, high magic (e.g. hand of glory to boost shooting, or walk between worlds to turbo-charge).
4) I've lost the BotWD to save some points and get my bsb some "non situational" protection (1+, 6++, as opposed to 2+, 2++ vs magic wounds only). I have a feeling this was a bad idea - any thoughts?
5) I've lost the OTS from my prince to enhance his armour save; I guess this will make it that much more difficult to deal with the vamp - but would make me better protected against most hits (1+ repeatable, 6++). Again, is this a bad idea?
6) What would be the best use for the great eagle? Charging the HW on the flank didn't work last time around, I'm struggling to see a significant role for it in my army (other than supporting someone's charge?). Losing the eagle could buy more white lions or almost a RBT/chariot...

Again, thanks for your advice,
Marco
theviking
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#5 Post by theviking »

Strategos wrote: Questions:
1) Do you think I ought to lose the Sisters of Avelorn (SA) in favour of one extra RBT?
2) I've added some silver helms and white lions by losing one regiment of reavers.
3) I am planning to use lore of light on both mages... However I'm wondering whether I would missing out on important support...
4) I've lost the BotWD to get my bsb some protection. I have a feeling this was a bad idea - any thoughts?
5) I've lost the OTS from my prince to enhance his armour save. Again, is this a bad idea?
6) What would be the best use for the great eagle? I'm struggling to see a significant role for it in my army.

Again, thanks for your advice,
Marco
1) They both have their uses. RBT are more efficient, sisters have all the special rules. I usually take as many sisters as I can afford so I'd say keep them in, but you should also try 3-4 RBT's and see how they compare.

2) This is a good start. If points allow, keep going and drop the other reaver unit for a second eagle and more WL or archers. I much prefer eagles over reavers, although as always both have their place.

3) Lore of shadow has incredible synergy with elves of all kinds but lacks reliable damage spells. With RBT and sisters, that can be mitigated somewhat. Life, light, and high are also very good choices. Any can be made to work with trial and error.

4-5) I don't know much about playing the cav prince and what works best. Fortunately for you, Seredain has chronicled over 50 pages of his experiences using a cav prince and these questions and more have been gone over thoroughly. It's all good reading, but I'd recommend starting around page 40 as the previous content was written before the current book. Although with the resurrection of certain magic items in 9th age some of those earlier discussions may be relevant again. http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

6) Flying around and getting in the way, or taking opportunistic charges at mages or warmachines. They are a tactical element used to control movement on the board in various ways. For example, if your silver helms are in danger of getting flanked, you fly the eagle up at an angle so the bus doesn't get charged. Read this thread for all you ever wanted to know about eagles: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=33028
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

Nicene wrote:I remember Life being popular with the Cavalry Bus in 8th edition, but now I can't remember why
In the later versions, using the 8th edition HE army book, it was because the buffs made the bus (and in particular the Prince) very hard indeed.

I agree with most of theviking's advice. I feel dropping the Sisters for an extra RBT is probably a good idea but it's not a no-brainer. Deploying the Frostheart near the RBT might be a good idea. The Terrorgheist will only fight Wight Lions if it wants to, these should go after his infantry instead. 17 is still a little small and generally Lions benefit hugely from World Dragon. I'd consider going Ogre Blade plus Enchanted Shield on the BSB and switching Dragonhelm to the Prince. 1+ Armour tends to be better than OTS for all-comers.
theviking wrote:For example, if your silver helms are in danger of getting flanked, you fly the eagle up at an angle so the bus doesn't get charged.
The eagle thread linked shows that they have a lot of uses but this is the most important one for me. You drop the eagle 1" away from the enemy combat unit. He charges, you hold and he has to square up to whatever angle you've set the eagle's base at. The eagle will die. The enemy then has to choose between Reforming (so he's only advanced 1" this turn) or Overrunning straight forwards. If you've set the eagle's base sensibly, this will usually be in a bad direction for him.
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

Strategos wrote: Questions:
1) Do you think I ought to lose the Sisters of Avelorn (SA) in favour of one extra RBT?
2) I've added some silver helms and white lions by losing one regiment of reavers.
3) I am planning to use lore of light on both mages... However I'm wondering whether I would missing out on important support...
4) I've lost the BotWD to get my bsb some protection. I have a feeling this was a bad idea - any thoughts?
5) I've lost the OTS from my prince to enhance his armour save. Again, is this a bad idea?
6) What would be the best use for the great eagle? I'm struggling to see a significant role for it in my army.

Again, thanks for your advice,
Marco
1. I agree with the others. Sisters and RBT perform roughly equally well. But 3 RBT is superior to 2 in most ways. The additional reliability of having an extra one in my mind outweighs the benefits sisters bring in this case. So, I would either increase the sister unit or get the extra RBT.

2. For me having 2 redirectors / sacrificial units is generally ok at such a points level. So, one reavers unit and one eagle works fine. It depends a bit on the return you're getting from the archers. For me, they never hit anything, so I tend to drop them for a reaver unit and 'save' the points of the eagle to spend elsewhere. But, I can imagine that if your archers sometimes really kill stuff that you want to keep them in.

3. Think of what you want your mages to do and pick your lores accordingly. The aim should be to always have 2 spells worth casting minimum. This will give your opponent a tough choice in what to dispel. Which is always good. It can force him to use his scroll earlier and increases your chances of getting something worthwhile cast. On the other hand, never count on getting a specific spell cast in a phase, since your opponent will likely realize that it's the important spell and do everything he can to dispel this spell.

Small side note: not sure if you noticed or not, but Walk between worlds doesn't allow you to get into combat with another unit. It's a 'remaining moves' move, which means that you always stop 1'' away from other units.

4-5 personal preference I think. Try it out a few games and see what happens

6. As the other mentioned: the role of your eagle is to die. It shouldn't charge into combats for extra combat res or try to kill stuff. It gets in the way and dies. Doing so will give you better board control and thus a bigger chance to dominate the battle.

In general I think that your list isn't bad. Perhaps not completely optimized. But it works ok. Try it out a few times without too many changes and then evaluate what works and what doesn't. A lot of players like battle reports for this sort of thing, since it helps show list errors, player mistakes etc.

Rod
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#8 Post by Strategos »

Ok then, I'm back.

First, thanks all for your answers and advice - taken onboard. I've read Seredain's thread from page 40 to the end, and learned quite a few things. Now, with my usual lastminuteness, I'm preparing for a couple of 3500pts battles, one against undead and one against dwarves. First battle tomorrow (not sure against whom - randomly decided in the morning).

My army list is as follows:

Lords (927pts - 937pts):
Prince: dragon armour, barded steed, cloak of beards, dawnstone, giant blade, enchanted shield (287 pts)
Loremaster: dispel scroll, gem of sunfire, shield of the merwyrm, ogre blade (330 pts)
Archmage: High magic, unsure as to magic objects, either:
a. power stone, ring of fury, talisman of preservation (310 pts); or
b. BoH, ToP; or (320 pts)
c. ToP, Fencer's blades, Power stone (320 pts)

Heroes (314 pts):
Noble 1: bsb, dragon armor, barded steed, golden crown of atrazar, sword of might, charmed shield, OTS (170pts)
Noble 2: dragon armor, barded steed, halberd, reaver bow, potion of strength, shield (144 pts)

Core (875pts):
24 Archers: FC (270 pts);
14 Archers: musician (150 pts);
5x Ellyrian Reavers (80pts);
15x Silver helms: FC, shields (375pts)

Special (962pts)
6x Dragon Princes: FC, banner of eternal flame (214pts)
22x Phoenix Guard: FC, Razor Standard (405 pts)
21x Sword Masters: Champion, Standard bearer, BWD (343pts)

Rare:
4x ECBT (280pts)
10x Sisters of Avelorn (140pts)

I've prepared a magic sequence (which spells depending on available dice and game maturity) to be prepared...or rather, I started doing that.

Now, questions:
1) these may be a bit optimised against vampire counts. Some degree of tailoring of the list is permitted in my meta: how would you amend against dwarves? (not sure what to expect from the dwarf player, never played);
2) any last minute ideas/advice to help the elven host?

Thanks in advance, best,
Marco
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#9 Post by Joaco »

Yeah, I think you will have it harder against dwarves with your list. Specially if he takes a shooting and gyropter list.
So try to go straight forward if he take that kind of list, becouse you dont have to mutch to take his warmachines fast.
And I would aim the gyros with my shooting.

A personal preference, I really like the sinergy of the loremaster with the book of hoeth, let you cast a lot of the signature
spells with 2 dices.
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

Strategos wrote:Ok then, I'm back.
Welcome back!
Strategos wrote:I've read Seredain's thread from page 40 to the end, and learned quite a few things
The man was an education.

:)

The list does look familiar in parts. Possibly it could do with more redirectors, as Seredain played in a very flyer-heavy meta towards the end which rendered these less useful. I would usually run the Archmage in the Swordmasters. Shield of Saphery could be vital for them vs non-magical attacks plus World Dragon protects against sniping spells and Miscasts. I agree, both infantry units look pretty good vs VC's.

I agree with Joaco, watch out for Gyrocopters. The template can murder Swordmasters and he can sacrifice them to redirect and delay you. World Dragon is very good because almost all war machines (Stone Throwers and Organ Guns the most dangerous here) are runed up and hence Magical. If he's tailoring though, he might leave stuff unruned and his infantry shooting and Gyros are mundane. If the World Dragon unit can get into combat his characters with Runic weapons can't hurt it. If these bring Great Weapons your own characters should beat them up and Cloak of Beards could be golden. Hammerers are dangerous though, they hit like hell, especially if they can roll up Hatred at the start of the game. If the Dwarfs can charge you, they get +1 to Strength which could be nasty.
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

I agree with the others on the Book of Hoeth. It's great on either the loremaster or the archmage with high. I would probably give it to the loremaster, since it really lets you spam the signature spells. Which will give you some great magical dominance. Putting it on the archmage will do almost the same thing with high magic, but it has the added benefit of helping with defense as well, since you'll be able to reroll a DD as well. For the loremaster a good setup could be Book of Hoeth + Armour of Silvered steel. Gives strong magic, decent defense and reasonable offence (for a mage at least).

The archmage then gets a dispel scroll + some other beneficial item.

On the list I think you could do with another redirector. Perhaps you can find 50pts for an eagle somewhere. Higher points games like 3500pts often can end up with two large armies mainly running at each other simply because there is less room to maneuver and units are a bit bigger. Having an extra redirector to direct the flow of the battle will give you an edge in that regard.

I like the cloak of beards in the list. Not just against the dwarves, but also against the VC. A single failed fear test can really mess with your plans. And it happens, even on LD 10. And at 10pts it's cheap enough to include in a 3500pts list.

Other then that, nice list. Keeping the SM alive vs dwarves will be key I think. If they can survive the initial shooting then they'll do great. If not, then you'll have a hard time.

Let us know how it goes.

Rod
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#12 Post by Doctor »

+1, the BoH works very well on the Loremaster.

Also +1 for adding more redirectors. They can really help.
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#13 Post by Strategos »

Strategos wrote:I've read Seredain's thread from page 40 to the end, and learned quite a few things
The man was an education.

Indeed!

Thanks all – great advice.
In the end, the first battle was against VC; I scored 1570pts vs 1355 from my opponent (= a draw).
Will post photos and a battle report.

I made some clear tactical mistakes in game, and had poor luck with die (unless statistics is an opinion).

On the plus side, the combo LM+AM+PG was very good and stopped a couple of his blocks (including grave guard+BSB), the RBTs & SH stopped the terrorgheist, the DPs stopped the hexwraiths and held/survived 20skeletons+vampire for 4 turns (despite failing .
My BSB was good value for points too.

My prince died early, and the quarterback noble didn't make his points with the reaver bow.

Anyhoo, will post a battle report asap (with photos. Next battle against dwarves, will do some tailoring (it's allowed to newbies, isn't it?)

Cheers,
M
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

Strategos wrote:Thanks all
You're welcome Marco.
Strategos wrote:Will post photos and a battle report.
Looking forward to this!
Strategos wrote:My prince died early,
How?
Strategos wrote:will do some tailoring (it's allowed to newbies, isn't it?)
I think it's simply about which way you and your opponents want to play.
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Re: Some advice to a "new" player please :)

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

Yes, looking forward to the battle report :) It's a great way to learn (both for us and for the person writing it I think). Congratulations on the result. VC can be a tough opponent, especially if they bring all their tricks. So getting a draw is a good result.

As for statistics, it's often depends on the point of view. And we have a tendency to remember the outliers and forget the rest. So in that sense, it is a matter of opinion ;) Though everyone has had some bad luck at some point. Whether it is having your archmage general sucked into the warp casting the first spell of the game on two dice or your opponents general holding in the bottom of turn 6 on snake eyes turning a massacre into a draw. It happens :)

List tailoring is a bit dependent on how you play. I tend to write a list for each battle I play. They usually follow common themes. But I like trying different things and will include stuff because it's good against one opponent but not against another, or just because I want to see how it performs.

In my mind, the only reasons to play with all comers list is that you prepare for tournaments or you and your opponent regularly play them or because you play vs a group of people and more or less randomly end up with an opponent. Tailoring means that you can try all items in the book (like cloak of beards) and move away from the default lists. For me, that can only be a good thing. Though, it is probably a good idea to agree with your opponent on it. No fun showing up with an all comers list only to run into a very heavily tailored list.

Rod
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