2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Hello fellow HE players, I wanted to share my plan for my first proper army with you, and get some feedback, criticism and ideas ^^. I know that tailoring an army specifically for a certain opponent is limiting, but I needed a certain goal towards I could start collecting miniatures, and vengeance is always a good motivation :p
It's 8,5 edition btw
Here is my list:
Lords and Heroes
Prince Anaris (Sword of Anti-Heroes, Armor of Caledor, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Cloak of Beards), 240 points
Archmage Estera (level 4, probably High Magic, Book of Hoeth), 275 points
Mage Lindir (level 1, probably High Magic, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon), 110 points
625 points
Core
2 units of 15 Silver Helms (shields, full command) 750 points
3 units of 5 Ellyrian Reavers (bows and spears, musicians), 315 points
1 unit of 5 Ellyrian Reavers (spears, musician), 90 points
1155 points
Special
1 unit of 44 White Lions of Chrace (full command, Banner of Swiftness), 617 points
Rare
2 Great Eagles, 100 points
Total of 2497 points
The idea behind this is simple. I want to outposition my opponent. Many small skirmisher units will make him force to put down the juice targets, as well as reveal the location of his Dwarf characters, before me. He will gain +1 on the roll for first turn, but I can live with that risk. I want to put my WL against his one big block, in which he will unboubtedly put his characters as well. My WL, bolstered by Ward Saves, will slaughter his elites, while my Dwarf killer character will do just that, add more dwarf lord beards to his collection :p.
My Prince was designed to kill dwarfs. AoC an the Crown make him somewhat survivable. Most big dwarf units have at least a Thane SB and a Lord, maybe even a Runesmith. In the most common case, adding the plus 1 for dual weilding, I would have 7 strength 6 attacks, with AsF. Not to mention that I would melt away 50 % of his characters magic equipment by just touching them with a hairy cape (although I have a question there, if I get in contact with a unit, does the effect come into play before or after I declare a challenge? The one who accepts gets into contact with my Lord, but dies the effect of the Cloak still come into play after accepting a challenge?). With ward saves and Apotheosis from my mages, I think my prince will have quite the time slicing through the bearded stunties.
My cavalry and Eagles will hunt down warmachines, make rear and flank charges, and stop the dwarfs from flanking my own deathstar.
Speed is crucial for this strategy, that's why I got the Banner of Swiftness. Combined with Hand of Glory and Walk between Worlds, I want to lower the risks as far as possible of failing charges.
I decided against using Phoenixes, since the canons are sure to rip it to shreads before it can do much.
I was wondering that maybe I should take the bows from another unit of Reavers and delete all their musicians, to upgrade both my Eagles with Swiftsense and upgrade my level 1 caster to a level 2, giving me guaranteed possession of all High Magic spells. Are musicians on Reavers necessary?
What do you guys and gals think?
It's 8,5 edition btw
Here is my list:
Lords and Heroes
Prince Anaris (Sword of Anti-Heroes, Armor of Caledor, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Cloak of Beards), 240 points
Archmage Estera (level 4, probably High Magic, Book of Hoeth), 275 points
Mage Lindir (level 1, probably High Magic, Power Stone, Ironcurse Icon), 110 points
625 points
Core
2 units of 15 Silver Helms (shields, full command) 750 points
3 units of 5 Ellyrian Reavers (bows and spears, musicians), 315 points
1 unit of 5 Ellyrian Reavers (spears, musician), 90 points
1155 points
Special
1 unit of 44 White Lions of Chrace (full command, Banner of Swiftness), 617 points
Rare
2 Great Eagles, 100 points
Total of 2497 points
The idea behind this is simple. I want to outposition my opponent. Many small skirmisher units will make him force to put down the juice targets, as well as reveal the location of his Dwarf characters, before me. He will gain +1 on the roll for first turn, but I can live with that risk. I want to put my WL against his one big block, in which he will unboubtedly put his characters as well. My WL, bolstered by Ward Saves, will slaughter his elites, while my Dwarf killer character will do just that, add more dwarf lord beards to his collection :p.
My Prince was designed to kill dwarfs. AoC an the Crown make him somewhat survivable. Most big dwarf units have at least a Thane SB and a Lord, maybe even a Runesmith. In the most common case, adding the plus 1 for dual weilding, I would have 7 strength 6 attacks, with AsF. Not to mention that I would melt away 50 % of his characters magic equipment by just touching them with a hairy cape (although I have a question there, if I get in contact with a unit, does the effect come into play before or after I declare a challenge? The one who accepts gets into contact with my Lord, but dies the effect of the Cloak still come into play after accepting a challenge?). With ward saves and Apotheosis from my mages, I think my prince will have quite the time slicing through the bearded stunties.
My cavalry and Eagles will hunt down warmachines, make rear and flank charges, and stop the dwarfs from flanking my own deathstar.
Speed is crucial for this strategy, that's why I got the Banner of Swiftness. Combined with Hand of Glory and Walk between Worlds, I want to lower the risks as far as possible of failing charges.
I decided against using Phoenixes, since the canons are sure to rip it to shreads before it can do much.
I was wondering that maybe I should take the bows from another unit of Reavers and delete all their musicians, to upgrade both my Eagles with Swiftsense and upgrade my level 1 caster to a level 2, giving me guaranteed possession of all High Magic spells. Are musicians on Reavers necessary?
What do you guys and gals think?
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- Green Istari
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Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Hi Sahlor
I'll post a proper reply soon when I've been able to think it through.
I'll post a proper reply soon when I've been able to think it through.
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
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Cavalry Prince Reloaded
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http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
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Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
First off, I don't know WH 8.5 very well, so I'll just answer as if it's WH 8th...
Cloak of beards: just because you're in a challenge doesn't mean you stop being in B2B with other models. The models can be taken out of the unit for dramatic effect. But rulewise they remain in their respective units. So, your model probably remains in B2B with 3 dwarves (including the one in the challenge).
Other things: I think the bows on the revears are useless. 15 s3 shots hitting on 4's won't do much against heavily armoured dwarves (if anything at all). Of course, the reavers won't do much in combat either (5 s4 attacks don't do much to any sort of unit), their main role is to stand in the way and die. I also have my doubts about they two full units of SH. They pack a decent punch, but they will suffer in any round of combat in which they haven't charged. In all, I think that relying on our core cavalry to do a decent share of the fighting against dwarves (who tend to have bigger blocks and have little issue with armour) is not the best of plans.
I would personally drop the 3 units of reavers with bows and one of the great eagles. And put the points into something that fights better. I would go for whatever amount of PG you can get with the razor banner (anything over 15 works wonders...). And perhaps supplement them with small units of SM (who do blend stuff they get into combat with).
Rod
Cloak of beards: just because you're in a challenge doesn't mean you stop being in B2B with other models. The models can be taken out of the unit for dramatic effect. But rulewise they remain in their respective units. So, your model probably remains in B2B with 3 dwarves (including the one in the challenge).
Other things: I think the bows on the revears are useless. 15 s3 shots hitting on 4's won't do much against heavily armoured dwarves (if anything at all). Of course, the reavers won't do much in combat either (5 s4 attacks don't do much to any sort of unit), their main role is to stand in the way and die. I also have my doubts about they two full units of SH. They pack a decent punch, but they will suffer in any round of combat in which they haven't charged. In all, I think that relying on our core cavalry to do a decent share of the fighting against dwarves (who tend to have bigger blocks and have little issue with armour) is not the best of plans.
I would personally drop the 3 units of reavers with bows and one of the great eagles. And put the points into something that fights better. I would go for whatever amount of PG you can get with the razor banner (anything over 15 works wonders...). And perhaps supplement them with small units of SM (who do blend stuff they get into combat with).
Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
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PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
The idea with the SH was that they would go against Quarrelers and other shooting units, to break them. Combined with flank and rear charges from eagles and ER. ER are supposed to hunt down warmachines and block line of sight of the WL train.
I was wondering how exactly the Cloak of Beards works. Let's say I charge them. My Prince is on the left, his Lord on the right. They don't touch eachother. The cloak has no effect.
If I issue a challenge though, and he accepts, our characters move through the unit and face eachother. Will the Cloak, after they made way, still trigger? Or only next tur, if the challenge continues?
Thanks for the feedback so far I will consider it
I was wondering how exactly the Cloak of Beards works. Let's say I charge them. My Prince is on the left, his Lord on the right. They don't touch eachother. The cloak has no effect.
If I issue a challenge though, and he accepts, our characters move through the unit and face eachother. Will the Cloak, after they made way, still trigger? Or only next tur, if the challenge continues?
Thanks for the feedback so far I will consider it
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- Green Istari
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Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
My first question is, will your opponent bring any stone throwers, Organ Guns, Flame Cannon etc? Ie stuff that can be Runed up to hurt those Lions? Because as things stand, you have a big unit Sahlor but it will be persecuted before it gets to combat. I really think you want Banner of the World Dragon on it to give near-immunity to these threats. This will also render any Rune weapons fighting the unit virtually useless, easier than trying to set up the Cloak of Beards.
As it stands the Prince is a bit vulnerable, it's hard to tool him up sufficiently on foot. The Cloak only has a 50% chance of working and a character with a Great Weapon or Hammerers are big dangers. Lions are good but Hammerers with Hatred are very nasty. Cloak works 'At the start of the combat phase'. I think it's unclear whether as the Active player you can choose whether this happens before or after challenges.
Many Dwarf players deploy very tightly with war machines directly behind infantry units to prevent charges on them. If your opponent does leave gaps, by all means hunt them down. Core is in general not greatly effective vs Dwarfs, S3 doesn't hurt them, so I'd use the minimum 25%. I would agree with Rod but I guess if your opponent has the Quarrellers as a target you can have a go. Even then, they often pass those Break tests. Reavers can do most of the jobs of eagles here, letting you spend those points elsewhere.
I would definitely take a BSB, re-rolling Ld tests is very important. If he brings Gyrocopters, watch out for suiciding to delay the Lions and the templates can be nasty, especially after Vanguarding.
As it stands the Prince is a bit vulnerable, it's hard to tool him up sufficiently on foot. The Cloak only has a 50% chance of working and a character with a Great Weapon or Hammerers are big dangers. Lions are good but Hammerers with Hatred are very nasty. Cloak works 'At the start of the combat phase'. I think it's unclear whether as the Active player you can choose whether this happens before or after challenges.
Many Dwarf players deploy very tightly with war machines directly behind infantry units to prevent charges on them. If your opponent does leave gaps, by all means hunt them down. Core is in general not greatly effective vs Dwarfs, S3 doesn't hurt them, so I'd use the minimum 25%. I would agree with Rod but I guess if your opponent has the Quarrellers as a target you can have a go. Even then, they often pass those Break tests. Reavers can do most of the jobs of eagles here, letting you spend those points elsewhere.
I would definitely take a BSB, re-rolling Ld tests is very important. If he brings Gyrocopters, watch out for suiciding to delay the Lions and the templates can be nasty, especially after Vanguarding.
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
In my opinion, WL are the best option against dwarves blocks I defenetly would change the banner on them to BoTWD, warmachines will be runned probably, so that makes them pretty useless against, and they still have a good save vs non magic shooting (case of gyros for example).
I see you want a certain win on those dwarves, so I would also take only the 25% on basic units, maybe one unit of SH and some ER, if you threat the warmachines with them, your opponent haves to aim on them or risk on loosing those warmachines, so a win-win situation.
With those remaining points (about 500) I would take some PG (15-20 should be fine) and some RBT, who are very important if the dwarves bring some gyros. Taking 20 PG and two RBT, would leave some points to make that mage lvl 2 (lvl1 isnt to helpful) or droping one eagle to take a BSB.
I'm not that fan of taking such a big unit (case of the WL) in a really tragic situation you can lose too many points in one unit that isnt an anvil. So I would take 10 less of them to improve some other stuff (BSB, mage, banner on PG)
I see you want a certain win on those dwarves, so I would also take only the 25% on basic units, maybe one unit of SH and some ER, if you threat the warmachines with them, your opponent haves to aim on them or risk on loosing those warmachines, so a win-win situation.
With those remaining points (about 500) I would take some PG (15-20 should be fine) and some RBT, who are very important if the dwarves bring some gyros. Taking 20 PG and two RBT, would leave some points to make that mage lvl 2 (lvl1 isnt to helpful) or droping one eagle to take a BSB.
I'm not that fan of taking such a big unit (case of the WL) in a really tragic situation you can lose too many points in one unit that isnt an anvil. So I would take 10 less of them to improve some other stuff (BSB, mage, banner on PG)
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Thanks again for the feedback.
I recently tealised that I had developed 25% on Special, not the full 50% xD. Definitely switch some Reavers and at least one unit of Silver Helms for some PG and a Noble BSB. Leave at least one Eagle to support the PG. I hadn't thought about Bolt Throwers against Gyros, so I will definitely think about that too. Will update the list soon
I recently tealised that I had developed 25% on Special, not the full 50% xD. Definitely switch some Reavers and at least one unit of Silver Helms for some PG and a Noble BSB. Leave at least one Eagle to support the PG. I hadn't thought about Bolt Throwers against Gyros, so I will definitely think about that too. Will update the list soon
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Glad if I helped somehow!
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
I can't really tell what exactly he has. He has some cannon miniatures, so I would let him pick any artillery piece. It's only fair.SpellArcher wrote:My first question is, will your opponent bring any stone throwers, Organ Guns, Flame Cannon etc? Ie stuff that can be Runed up to hurt those Lions? Because as things stand, you have a big unit Sahlor but it will be persecuted before it gets to combat.
After taking into consideration you guys' feedback (thnx again for that), my plan for the army is as follows:
Lords and Heroes (max. 1250 points)
Prince (Cloak of Beards, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Armour of Caledor, Sword of Anti Heroes), 240 points
Archmage (level 4, probably High Magic, Book of Hoeth), 275 points
Mage (level 2, probably High Magic, Powerstone, Ironcurse Icon), 145 points
Noble (BSB, Banner of the World Dragon, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Lion Cloak), 157 points
817 points
Core
2 units of 5 Ellyrian Reavers, 160 points
1 unit of 5 Ellyrian Reavers (musician), 90 points
15 Silver Helms (shields, full command), 375 points
625 points
Special
36 White Lions (full command), 498 points
28 Phoenix Guard (full command, Razor Standard), 495 points
993 points
Rare
Great Eagle (Swiftsense, Shredding Talons), 65 points
65 points
Total of 2500 points
I decided against taking Bolt Throwers, it would take away offensive points I think are more necessary. The big units are a gamble, true, but I am willing to take it. Their survivability is based around ward saves, as well as a successful magic phase. It isn't supposed to be a perfect tournament list, but I like the feeling of this army . If you guys and gals have any more suggestions that can help me make it even better, criticism is appreciated
Thnx again everybody
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Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
it looks like a nice enough list I think. The best way now to find out how it performs is to play a few games with it.
One last thing I would consider is dropping the upgrades on the great eagle. In my lists at least, the GE is not a combat unit, unless there is no way around it. And adding ASF and armour piercing to 2 attacks doesn't do a lot. I prefer my eagles to die cheaply... But that's just me.
If you do drop (one of) the upgrades I would probably put the extra points in musicians for the reavers. A musician on them effectively means they will rally on a 9. And for a fast cavalry unit (with feigned flight) who will likely be operating out of general / BSB range, that one point can make a big difference.
Rod
One last thing I would consider is dropping the upgrades on the great eagle. In my lists at least, the GE is not a combat unit, unless there is no way around it. And adding ASF and armour piercing to 2 attacks doesn't do a lot. I prefer my eagles to die cheaply... But that's just me.
If you do drop (one of) the upgrades I would probably put the extra points in musicians for the reavers. A musician on them effectively means they will rally on a 9. And for a fast cavalry unit (with feigned flight) who will likely be operating out of general / BSB range, that one point can make a big difference.
Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
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Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
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PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
I do like that list! Nice core choice and really good units of WL and PG!
I'm asuming that the BSB will join the WL right?
Agree with Rod on droping at least the Arm. Piercing on the eagle(RRs could work with warmachines(and hordes )).
In my opinion I would take shadow or death (initiative tests) with the archmage, or even heavens (S6 good range)
I'm asuming that the BSB will join the WL right?
Agree with Rod on droping at least the Arm. Piercing on the eagle(RRs could work with warmachines(and hordes )).
In my opinion I would take shadow or death (initiative tests) with the archmage, or even heavens (S6 good range)
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Yepp, all 4 characters join the WL. The one Mage may join the PG, depending on the situation and the Lore he takes.Joaco wrote:I do like that list! Nice core choice and really good units of WL and PG!
I'm asuming that the BSB will join the WL right?
Agree with Rod on droping at least the Arm. Piercing on the eagle(RRs could work with warmachines(and hordes )).
In my opinion I would take shadow or death (initiative tests) with the archmage, or even heavens (S6 good range)
15 points for the upgraded Eagle are not even enough for 2 musicians, and RR I would like to have so he doesn't get his beak kicked in by the dwarf artillery crews :p. In my experience, it is in situation like these when the dice usually decides to screw you over. But I will see.
High Magic I wanna take mostly for sustain, but those two are pretty good as well. I always wanted to Purple Sun dwarf blocks, so the Lores are still to be decided
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Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
That's true of course. As I said, the best way to find out how the list plays is to give it a few tries. The 15 points indeed only gets you 1 musician. So for 2 of them you'd need to find some other points somewhere. And that may not be worth it. Or you find that you never need the musicians (since the reavers simply get shot to pieces or wiped out in combat the whole time). And the extra bit of reliability on the eagle can make indeed make some difference.
Let us know how it goes.
Rod
Let us know how it goes.
Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
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PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Hey! Tomorrow I'll be playing a friendly 2400 battle against a dwarf army!
I'm gonna take a similar list than this one and tell you how it goes (i'm taking rbt in exchange of some wl and pg) So probably will have some new tips after the game!
I'm gonna take a similar list than this one and tell you how it goes (i'm taking rbt in exchange of some wl and pg) So probably will have some new tips after the game!
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Cool! Can't wait to hear about itJoaco wrote:Hey! Tomorrow I'll be playing a friendly 2400 battle against a dwarf army!
I'm gonna take a similar list than this one and tell you how it goes (i'm taking rbt in exchange of some wl and pg) So probably will have some new tips after the game!
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Well, I guess it was not a representative battle. It enden in a complete massacre for the high elves, not a single dwarf lived by the turn 6. He used a kind of strange list (no warmachines!). He took 3 gyrocpters, 1 gyrobomber, 2x20ish Longbeards, 24 hammerers, 20 rangers, 20 miners. So lot of blocks of infantry, but he had a trick, all of hes units had vanguard!
I went like: Heroes: Archmage lvl 4 (book and talism. of p) mage lvl 2 (ring) noble bsb (halbard and armor with WS4+)
Cores: 15 SH fc, 3x5 Ellyrian (nude) Specials: 20 PG fc , 21 Wl fc and BotWD Rares: 3xRBT , Frostheart and a GE
I deployed the blocks in the middle and cav. and flyers on flanks.
In the vanguard he moved all forward and I was more defensive. He tooked first turn and moved all forward again.
My first turn, I charged some gyros on the flank, moved my blocks back, and fast cavalries and phoenix to flank and backs.
For the second turn, I focused my charges on his two blocks on the sides (phoenix from the back and phoenix guard into unit of longbeards, and wl and sh from the flank into rangers) this allowed me to win bot combats, phoenixes chased to his side, and wl and sh raze into the flank of the other longbeards unit. So, second turn I was safe from charges and strucked into favorable combats.
My magic sucked, but didnt needed being in favorable combats. RBT were awesome againts hes gyros.
So basically won becouse of deployment and out maneuvered him, I choosed every one of the combats!
Also the Frostheart was an awesome help btw(he had no cannon tho)
I dont know if he played wrong, or I just did better, the result was confusing. (only lost 2 units of ellyrian and the lvl 2 mage)
I went like: Heroes: Archmage lvl 4 (book and talism. of p) mage lvl 2 (ring) noble bsb (halbard and armor with WS4+)
Cores: 15 SH fc, 3x5 Ellyrian (nude) Specials: 20 PG fc , 21 Wl fc and BotWD Rares: 3xRBT , Frostheart and a GE
I deployed the blocks in the middle and cav. and flyers on flanks.
In the vanguard he moved all forward and I was more defensive. He tooked first turn and moved all forward again.
My first turn, I charged some gyros on the flank, moved my blocks back, and fast cavalries and phoenix to flank and backs.
For the second turn, I focused my charges on his two blocks on the sides (phoenix from the back and phoenix guard into unit of longbeards, and wl and sh from the flank into rangers) this allowed me to win bot combats, phoenixes chased to his side, and wl and sh raze into the flank of the other longbeards unit. So, second turn I was safe from charges and strucked into favorable combats.
My magic sucked, but didnt needed being in favorable combats. RBT were awesome againts hes gyros.
So basically won becouse of deployment and out maneuvered him, I choosed every one of the combats!
Also the Frostheart was an awesome help btw(he had no cannon tho)
I dont know if he played wrong, or I just did better, the result was confusing. (only lost 2 units of ellyrian and the lvl 2 mage)
Re: 2500 point first proper army list, Anti-Dwarf oriented
Brings tears to my eyes, all those dead stunties :'DJoaco wrote:Well, I guess it was not a representative battle. It enden in a complete massacre for the high elves, not a single dwarf lived by the turn 6
Indeed, against so many gyros, BT are fitting.
Not going to downgrade your victory, but dwarfs are very tough. They should not be slaughteted like that, especially if your magic phase sucked. He charged you, and was doomed after thaf. He got outflanked and cracked open like a walnut.
But still, a flawless victory! Let's hope your buddy will learn from his mistakes and put up a fight next time .
How did the SH bus perform? And the WL and PG?