WFB: Reworked and Rebalanced

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Furion
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WFB: Reworked and Rebalanced

#1 Post by Furion »

Last edited by Furion on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:28 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#2 Post by Francis »

I love the High elf list, you pretty much fixed everything I would have fixed, and added a few things (the new spell is amazing). The only thing I would have liked were for shadow warriors to be able to choose shields as an option.

However, the fact that I like this list so much probably means that it is a bit too strong, and with all the helf hate out there, I can't see anybody allowing me to use this list.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#3 Post by Loriel »

Ok, I will comment as I read ;)

- Hand maiden "correction" is imo good
- I like the concept of shield of Aenarion. However I feel 8 casting value for the spell is probably little easy. Naturally it needs lore attribute procs much.
- Blade of leaping gold should see increase of cost. mere 10 points for ignore armor save compared to original core rulebook +3 attacks
- Armor of caledor to old point cost... With added 2+ ward against flaming and 6+ ward I think it is too little for it. perhaps 35 would be more proper cost.
- Good old vambracers of defence ;)
- Ring of Corin probably has arcane unforging?
- Moranion's Wayshard, I would probably chance it to some point allowance. Like 300 point worth of infantry instead simple models. But other than that this would certainly make the item more appealing.
- Gem of Sunfire. Do you mean that if the attack is flaming it will get +1 to wound and if not it just gets flaming? or did you meant that it gives +1 to wound and flaming?
- Shadow Armor, oh the tricks with movement and then doing smoke and mirrors. Interesting and could work real nice.
- BoH even if it hurts my guts to see this item nerfed in anyway 65 points is really justified. Even more ;) still extremely powerfull item.
- Silver Wand and Loremaster synergy =) Interesting.
- Banner of Sorc, 1 power dice for cost of 30 seems right. And not adding more dices is ok as it became rare thing to have abilities to hav emore PD.
- BOTWD 3+ ward is good call.

- I think griffon / stormwing is probably little too cheap. given that elhtarion gives mount 5+ ward means that stormwing isn't the flimsiest of the monsters. Griffons have really good offensive abilities. Their weakness is lack of saves, makes them glass cannons. decreasing their prices will make the griffon noble some kind of cruiser missile.
- 30 points for prince chariot that gives +1 amor save speed (well foot marching is 1 inch longer), 4 wounds? This is too little. In addition adjusting the cost of sun dragon to be more in line with the cost of dragon mage would be ok. And 20 points for dragon armor when armor of caledor is 25, needs adjustment also.
- 5 for archmage? well still wouldn't probably play this but way too little.
- 5+ ward for annointed + decreases of cost is simple too powerfull. I think 5+ for 210 points (along with synergy of high magic, especially with loremasters abilitiy to have high magic) This is simple too huge upgrade to be justified.
- I don't think loremaster needs drop in cost. The ability to make him level 4 is interesting. He would probably see much more games with that ruling. Eventhough I don't use end times stuff, I would probably address lore of undeath also in the entry.
- Korhil for 60 points? stubborn with good offensive attacks. Ok he will die easily in combat, but still 4 x rerorallable str 6 kb for 60 points?
- Same goes for caradryan. Compared to regular noble that is so awfully low cost that it isn't justified by anything. rerollable str 5 multiwound flaming attacks, with magic resistance build in 4+ ward, alongside with extra damage on death. 25 points more to normal noble. Way too little, way.
- I think you should have increased dragon mages ws and attacks. I still ike the fus ro dah tongue thing, with the added mundane shields lances etc. But 200 points is way too little for this monster character. way too little.

- ... spearman for 6 points... -> seaguard or 8. This decrease is way too big... way too. those spearmen becomes somewhat the best choice with good supportive magic with this kind of ruling. However the thing is of course related to how are you going to value every other army book. but ability for heavy armor in spearmen is really good. the models just looks heavy armor to me. For 9 point model with heavy armor (perhaps not even as upgrades), seems more appropriate.
- lion chariot that could rival chaos chariot for so low points.

- going back that champion can take items instead weapons is really niche. Ring of Corin / khaines fury ring. Too bad you didn't include good old skeinsliver, one of my favorites in 7th =)
- Swordmasters should see better prowess than cheaper price. They would be really niche with 15 price and rerolling to hits. fits their theme better. I would personally take deflect shots off. I don't think it fits their theme.
- Shadow Warriors cost the same as regular archers from core? That is just too much. I think 13-14 is just about right for them. remember that their biggest impact on game is tactical. great weapons on shadow warrior isn't imo good call. I think that gw on shades is bad call also ;)
- Imo dragon princes str 4 should be reserved for lions and characters. but extra weapon skill would probably be something that would show their eliteness.
- Tiranoc as core? At first I was like... no, but then again it could work.
- Skycutter compared to tiranoc chariot is real bargain (unless you think about the core vs. special thing) but mere 5 points difference with better movement (vastly better due flying), better mount armor save, extra crew member.

- Musician and standard for sisters... mmm, like it ;) But with this addition I wouldn't drop their cost. They are imo really good even without the addition. Just for flavor sake I would probably make banner of avelorn only wearable by Handmaiden or sisters unit.

------------------------

Overall I think you went little overboard with this edition. This kind of inflation means that similar inflation has to be taken to other armies as well to keep it "balanced", which makes the inflation futile. In general we have really good book in the 8th. There is no denying that and imo Helf book doesn't have so many "wrong stuff".

I would personally see the biggest flaws in the original 8th book:
- Shield of saphery wording. Imo it should be that they gain 6+ ward and +1 to all ward save they have. ( I allready play it like this, so no worries for me. but in RAW perspective)
- +2 ward save against magical on banner that can be fielded inside special unit. that is simple too much. 3+ is more like it or even 4+.
- Annointed bad synergy with phoenix guard. +1 to ward saves would be insanely good, unbreakable would be insanely good. Perhaps stubborn atleast. But I think annointed should have something like this. something that would make phoenix guard even better. Perhaps rerolls 1 to ward could be, as it is effective +1/12 ward save. Additionally what ever the annointed ability for unit would be it would be aura if he is the general on phoenix.
- Dragon Mage is simple useless (even though it could be really cool model and it has nice fluff) I think the main problem is that the mage itself is so puny in cc. Bringing the mage atleast to noble statline would make the model much more usable.
- Sisters don't have musician. Matt Ward surely though this as somekind "ok here is nice shooters that for somehow is worse moving around.
- seahelm should have ability to use the naval discipline as charge reaction, or allow stand and shoot for seaguard and then naval discipline. Additionally losing one attack compared to noble seems just odd.
- Elven steeds are not fast cavs. Imo this could be fixed with simple idea that high elven characters can only ride with barded mounts. It would seem much better option than just have some half breed mongrel of a steed compared to what Dark Elves and Wood Elves have breeded. But if we are going to have possibility for regular steed it should have fast cav rule. Either way would be fix in my book ;)
- GW has something against forces of order for banners in core compared to destruction. Imo magical banners in core should be rather rare overall. But either make it so for most of armies, or old style first among equal rule would be nice. (flaming archers, swift silverhelms)

----

Ok this is just my thoughs. hopefully you could find something that you could use to make the book better in general
Last edited by Loriel on Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#4 Post by Ielthan »

I pretty much agree with everything Loriel said.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#5 Post by Ferny »

My take on high elves only.

Note 1 – I haven’t checked points costs against combos at 2,400 or 2,500 (standard for UK/ETC/USA scenes I think) – it might be that these changes unlock more combos which weren’t previously possible, which has more ripple effect.

Note 2 – where I say something needed to be cheaper, it’s not necessarily because the sum of its parts doesn’t equal how it was costed, but because overall the model just wasn’t viable at that price when compared to alternatives.

Tyrion – needed to be cheaper IMO, not sure how much

Teclis – was OK as was IMO, change doesn’t make much difference IMO

Eltharion - needed to be cheaper IMO, not sure how much

Alith Anar – was OK as was IMO (I used him quite a bit), change makes him too good IMO

Griffon - needed to be cheaper IMO, not sure how much (no idea on his upgrades as never took the Griffon ;)!)

Chariot Prince or Archmage – like it! Would never have thought to cost it so low, but I think you’re right not to think of it as a chariot but rather as an options limiter on the character, and thus to cost it much lower than a regular chariot.

Anointed – I don’t think he necessarily needed a cost reduction (I think viable builds could be built on him), but it will mean we see more of them. I do NOT think he needed to boost to 5++ (especially with high magic synergy, doubly so with your new spell). Maybe boost to 5++ or a points drop but not both. It also radically changes the list synergy IMO. He now acts like Alarielle (without casting, but much more tanky so better suited for a star, which can be high boosted from a bunker now), which makes her less appealing, and the Queenstar was strong enough before. It also arguably makes PG less unique. Too many changes. I also don’t like adding shield – what’s the point and feels like wishlisting. He can use it vs shooting and magic, but not in combat, unless he takes a magic weapon…and lets face it, if it’s available he’ll take enchanted shield and magic weapon (if it’s still in your magic item list). Plus the background to the model is PG and he’s originally modelled as such – giving him mundane shield is like giving the loremaster a hand weapon (or indeed, why not give them a shield too – makes as much sense).

Loremaster – didn’t need the points drop. Balanced well against a Lv4 and offered an interesting choice. I would love to play him as a Lv4 (damn the slann felt tasty after we first showed the way with our mere Lv2), but I don’t know whether it is a good thing or not to allow the upgrade options. But if it is allowed, I still think the base cost should be the same as the Lv4 and to upgrade to a Lv4 loremaster should be +c.70 on top of that.

Korhil – brave price drop! Might be too much with the anointed (and, again, doubly so with high) changes – it now offers a very cheap way to get stubborn (especially with crown of command changes) and his main weakness – keeping him alive – is greatly mitigated. Not fully, but at 60pts that’s still worth it.

Caradryan – I thought he was about right – not sure why you’ve dropped him so much, except in line with your other drops…which I generally don’t seem to be agreeing with!

Noble Griffon – as prince.

Mage – meh, no worries

Dragon Mage – needed fixing. Lots of options. Yours is no doubt better than the original, don’t know if it’s the best/optimal solution, but would be happy with almost any change to make it viable.

Seahelm – makes a foot noble BSB a much rarer thing! I think he needs to cost more by comparison for this reason.

Handmaiden – I like the change to her rule, makes her a lot more versatile and she can be used how I think she is intended. Given that change I don’t think she needs the points drop. We’re still likely to see her with Reaver/PoS, it’s just we might get her with archers or seaguard now rather than just in a big sister block. The other option IMO would have been to make her a BSB option, which would probably replace overnight the reaver/PoS noble build that was popular in early 8th, but she wouldn’t necessarily need the quickshot rulechange if she were BSB because we might still see her fulfilling the role the noble did and not needing big sister block. Your rule is probably nicer/neater though.

Spears/Archers/Seaguard – I like how they differentiate now, with a good points relationship, and heavy armour is a nice touch too. However, with spears so cheap I think basic infantry across the board might need a price drop. And that might have knock-on effects on the meta.

Special champions getting access to magic items – not sure. I quite liked the weapon restriction, it forced harder choices on your heroes. What’s the gameplay advantage? Feels like wishlisting.

Swordmasters – yes, probably about right. Note however – does anointed alter the balance between these and lions now? Or anointed/korhil/high combo? Dunno – still a good move.

Shadow warriors – needed to be cheaper, not sure if they should be this cheap (maybe 11-12?). Additional hand weapons – sure, feels right and fluffy and matches models and makes them much more effective. But what’s the rationale behind great weapons? Feels like just copying shades (which want toning down IMO, not upping SW like this). It would help them a lot but I don’t think it’s needed.

Dragon princes – price meh, S4 meh – don’t think they needed it, but it is nice.

Lion chariot – both changes are steps in the right direction. Don’t know if I’d take it or not, but it’s more appealing now.

Tiranoc and Skycutter – yes! This is the way to differentiate between them, making them both viable in the same army book (and the lion chariot too). Should never have not been like this.

Bolt throwers – sure, they seem very popular now, 5pts won’t change it that much, differentiates them a bit more from sisters maybe, but I don’t think they should be 100 (too unreliable).

Pheonixes – sure to both – don’t mind frost costing more, agree fire needs to be less, don’t know how much.

Sisters – price was fine IMO, don’t need a drop. I like musician (and therefore why not standard too, and therefore why not magical). But especially don’t think they need price drop given these changes.

Magic:
I think tempest was crap, but your new spell might be too much IMO. Very powerful spell.

Magic items – too much for me to really take in. Feels like a nostalgic throwback to the last book. I was sad at the time when we lost lots of items, but I don’t feel like I miss them anymore. So no strong thoughts on the new ones you’ve put in and I haven’t looked at what you’ve removed. Generally I think I’m happy with the changes you’ve made to the existing ones.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#6 Post by Ielthan »

Furion have you considered joining the 9th age guys? You would be an important voice in that discussion and it seems to be getting some traction in the community.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#7 Post by Ferny »

Looks like I basically +1'ed Loriel independently. I liked the chariot changes more, didn't look at magic so much, and was less keen on the special magic items.

I forgot that you 'missed' a fix on the seahelm and agree that a S&S would be good, but then definitely keep the points as they were.

I'm a bit torn on sword masters - I generally think the fewer fixes as possible the better (and that where something can be solved with a points cost adjustment instead it should be - see core infantry as a good example). Where rule changes are applied they should be to 'tidy up' things which were generally missed (e.g. seahelm, handmaiden). I don't mind the changes to e.g. BoH, BotWD, because they feel like they could fall into these categories. As such, if swordmasters can be fixed with a points drop that is neater, even if mechanically I would like to (say) retain re-rolls and keep them high, or get something more useful than the jedi trick.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#8 Post by Loriel »

ferny, great minds think alike, eh? ;)
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#9 Post by Andros123 »

I like the overall changes you've made and admire your effort.

However there are some things, which seems a little off. Maybe you could do a writeup on your overall thoughts on the changes. Because some of the changes really sticks out, and it could be nice to hear your reasoning behind it.

Some of the things I see as critical:
- Seahelm. He seems way to cheap for the amazing ability he offers.
- Shadow warriors costs the same as archers?
- Anointed with his 5++. The synergy is way to good. HE are already good at making death stars
- The new spell, that replaces tempest is also way over the top. Why not just lower the casting value of tempest?
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#10 Post by Loriel »

one other thing for tempest to make it more worthwhile would make the effect happend on hit, rather than wound. that way it could be used to shutdown warmachine gunlines.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#11 Post by Wallack »

Are now dragons viable or just a big thing that cost a lot of points that dies to artillery ?
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#12 Post by pk-ng »

Having quickly skimmed through your "update" it seems you've just added 7th + 8th edition together and updated points cost. Not sure if this is a good approach but nonetheless its an interesting one. I do like how you've included some items from the 7th ed to may armies more dynamic and definitely like to have that Talisman of Loec (esp combo-ed with SM Champ).
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#13 Post by Dragon fire »

I like the approach! Great work keep it up. I think merging the 7'th and 8'th ed books together gives a good idea of the power level.
A few notes from my side.
I think the point cost for Korhil and Caradryan are too low. Having played a bit with both I think they are currently overcosted, but 60 points for Korhil a 4 attack, rr to hit, S6 and KB, and lastly he is stubborn. Keep him in 2nd rank and just go for challenges. I would say 90 to 100 points for him. Caradryan I would estimate 120 or so.

I would be very interested in seeing the effect of point change for Annointed and Loremaster (together with the lvl 4possibilities). Perhaps a bit too the low side, but as I have only played them rarely I wouldn't really know.

Lastly: Do you work together with the Swedish team working to create a new 9'th ed. I think i would be great if you could combine your efforts. This would also help align the WHFB players to one future system.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#14 Post by Elithmar »

Dragon fire wrote:...This would also help align the WHFB players to one future system.
This is my main concern with all of the different 9th edition projects at the moment. By all means improve the rules, but please all work together so that we're all playing the same game.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#15 Post by Furion »

Thank you all for your comments! I will report excessively when I get time. For now:
Dragon fire wrote: Lastly: Do you work together with the Swedish team working to create a new 9'th ed. I think i would be great if you could combine your efforts. This would also help align the WHFB players to one future system.
Swedish is made by 7 players. There is no way to do it good nor quickly with this big of a group. I have made an offer but haven't received a reply, and when I do I don't think that I am going to be happy with it.
Elithmar wrote: This is my main concern with all of the different 9th edition projects at the moment. By all means improve the rules, but please all work together so that we're all playing the same game.
That's easy - free market will decide. Best proposition will win and that's it.

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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#16 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

That's easy - free market will decide. Best proposition will win and that's it.
Someone gets it. =D>

Not only that, but I suspect that every version will benefit from the competition of ideas.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#17 Post by Elithmar »

I still think there's a danger that different communities will use different rule sets. Consider the situation at the moment with different comp packs, with some countries favouring no comp and some using ETC etc. Without GW to provide a starting point for these comps, surely these communities are just going to diverge more?
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#18 Post by Prince of Spires »

I agree that the biggest danger to WH 9th edition (and the future of WH as a fanbase-driven thing in general) is fragmentation of the rule set. Fragmentation means a smaller chance of finding a player playing the same game. Which means fewer games. Which means there is less incentive to build armies for 9th ed. Which leads to fewer opponents. And so on.

In the end, the risk here is that the player base starts dwindling and people move on to new stuff (which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course).

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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#19 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Elithmar wrote:I still think there's a danger that different communities will use different rule sets. Consider the situation at the moment with different comp packs, with some countries favouring no comp and some using ETC etc. Without GW to provide a starting point for these comps, surely these communities are just going to diverge more?
For awhile perhaps. But in the end people will gravitate to the one that they like the best, and ability to find a game will be part of what they consider. You'll loose a lot more people if they think they are just stuck with one set of house rules that they had no input in. 2nd, everyone should just play what they like. Every mordheim group you see does things a little different. People still love to play and talk mordheim. But a lot of things have also become almost standard, the armor changes being the most obvious example.

Of course I think most of these people will be happier if they let warhammer go and play KoW, but that's a different story.
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#20 Post by Furion »

I have updated the armybooks I've done, I also added 2 moer armybooks: Wood Elves and Empire.

Critique and comments are welcomed.

What do you think of this project? How does it compare to the oh so popular Sweedish 9th age?

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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#21 Post by Ferny »

I still think the costs I thought were too low before are too low now, despite the increases, for reasons described above. It's also hard to tell how this fits in without knowing if you intend an across the board reduction for all races.

I haven't looked in detail at the 9th Age rules, but for all that you're well known amongst 'pro' gamers I think theirs will have more traction because there are communities working with and playing them. I don't think the markets are the answer here, I think they fragment the player base. I think you'd have more chance of getting the game you want to see by working with the 9th committee than in competition against it, regardless of who's ruleset is better. (And tbh, whether the vision behind the ruleset is one person's or crowdsourced, what will make it 'perfect' is the revisions process rather than necessarily the starting point, which is similar for both enterprises as it starts with 8th - I was happy playing 8th and I'll be happy playing any version of 9th which gets enough support for people to be playing near me, the key thing is that enough people settle on a version).
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#22 Post by Loriel »

I go shortly on magic section;:

- Cascading fire cloak needs casting value increase.
- Conflagration of doom seems poor man fireball, as it cost little more than cast two fireball that will do 2d6 str 4 and with range 36 (well the abiliity to do str 6 is significant). DIrect damage is slightly better than magic missile. I never done probability on d6 roll of where you need to beat opponents roll, but that is something like 35 - 45% ? I would decrease the cost to 9 and 16 for this spell. atleast, or chance it that equal or higher than opponent (or simplification 4+) allthough roll of is more intense ;) OR make it so that the next hit will do extra damage. for example every subsequental is +1 str or anything.

- The wolf hunts. Oh boy this is lovely spell, especially the hex version! To be honest I was surprised that you didn't tinker flock of doom ;)
- Transformation of Kadon: I like the permanent effect. Can it be drain magiced? or would you consider that it could be set off at will?

- Golden Forge really really interesting spell. I would probably add that it can also be replacing a excisting item to make this spell little more usable
- Steel Golem: Did you mean can't issue and accept? just the way this is said implies that. I like steel golem. I would like some mage synergy with him, like bodyguard etc. (any attempted attack on wizard basecontact with golem is struck against golem on 4+ etc)
- Final transmutation: I personally don't like the look out sir against these spells. These spells main effect on the game is to prevent character stars to be formed.

- Healing Light is imo too costly or ineffective. I would go for value of 7 at most or increase the effect. One thing could be to make it like magic the gathering healing salvo where it is either healing or prevent damage (similar to wood elf high magic tokens)
- Banishment: I would keep the general +3 casting value for extra range as that is standard form in 8th and I think it is rather ok, as it simple means that one extra dice is "required"

- Throne of vines: Imo this spell is really appropriate as signature.
- master of woods and stone. I like the mechanic. I don't know if master of stone should be increased cost as this highly depends on the any given gaming table. How would you consider building that has wood on top and stone base on bottom? counted towards both
- The Dwellers Below, same as final. I think look out sirs shouldn't be allowed.

- Second sign of amul: I like it however... well it could be hard to say but giving it possibility to roll 6 on LD test would be niche. ;)

- Crepeping death: fine
- Summon Shadow: interesting trickster spell. Do you still complete the charge from the position of the charging unit? or can this shadow make it a rear / flank charge?

- Death. No aspect of dread! NOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can I ever win games with these rules... Seriously death seems ok. hmmm life leef nerf (or boost) prolly wasn't needed cause you took purple sun off. But this means that also energy 3 more spells get the benefit so.

---------------------

I am out of time, so I will continue on magic items in later on
High Elves since Aug 2010: Tot /W / L / D - 100 / 75 / 23 / 2
Tomb Kings since Sep 2013:Tot / W / L / D - 31 / 18 / 12 / 1

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Makiwara
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#23 Post by Makiwara »

My impression of the Wood Elf book. Overall, quite exciting, makes me what to get converting and hobbying again, it's fun and I like that.

Big decreases in cost to Eternal Guard and WWR, stubborn for 6.5 points is pretty interesting; would they be the cheapest stubborn unit in the game? WWR's probably needed either some expanded rules or a price decrease in this case, so I get that.

Decreases in points for wardancers, treemen, treekin are all nice and should mean more of them all seen.

However, the price increase for enchanted arrows seems a little much. No argument that they needed tweaking but it seems a wee bit overboard to me. Darkshards with a shield would be 2.5 points cheaper than a swiftshiver guard, they have 5+ armour compared to nothing and they have a parry save, all for 6 inches of range. I honestly think the arrow points cost and the corresponding drop in Eternal Guard would completely change the core of the Wood Elves to something that plays more like HE's or DE's, I don't overly like that prospect. I think something along the lines of

Swiftshiver -2 points
Moonfire/Starfire - 3 points
Arcane Bodkins - 4 points
Trueflight/Hagbane - 5 points

would be fair considering the stuff they'll be up against, what the other elves have in their core and the whole T3, single magic missile away from extinction thing.

Increases for Wild Riders and Waywatchers are to be expected and pretty warranted. Spellweaver increase is odd considering they lost a lore, I haven't looked at HE's, I imagine that the archmage is on par with them.

Points drop for Durthu but no drop for Orion? I didn't think he was 600 points good, but I've only run him once in 8th and might easily have been flummoxing him, he got shanked with the quickness. :mrgreen:

+5 ward for Sisters, I imagine Warlocks and Phoenix Guard will get the same treatment no? If not I'd be off put a wee bit, as the sisters damage output wasn't really comparable to Warlocks or Phoenix Guard.

I absolutely love the inclusion of the some of the old magic items again; though I would love to see the Blades of Loec up for grabs for a Glade Lord or Spellweaver, not restricted to just Shadowdancers. I love the Loec theme and it's a shame not to be able to spread the love around. I also like that some of the ward save items are back, giving WE's at least the option of running combat lords again.

Forest spirits getting +5 ward again is nice, as is the ability to field skirmishing dryads. I think a lot of people would prefer an increase in strength to Treekin over a drop in price though.

The synergy with Shadowdancers and wardancers is absolutely awesome, I look forward to trying that out in a game. I like the fact that wardancers can become a real combat threat again.

I feel like the Lore of Athel Loren needs more than just one spell swapped out of High Magic. Apotheosis, Walk Between Worlds and Hand of Glory all fit the Wood Elf theme, but I personally would drop out at least Arcane Unforging and Fiery Convocation, maybe even Soul Quench. In their place perhaps a summoning spell for Forest Spirits (or two) would be really interesting, maybe Tree Singing (though it would make Calaingor's Staff somewhat redundant), some kind of buff maybe... something perhaps that let's a unit shoot twice or move twice or something... something sneaky and shooty, I don't know. I hear Lore of Athel Loren and I think archers, hunters, woods, stealth, trees, not the pansies in their pastel shades and their stuffy indoor studies. :lol: I'm not sure, but I really think the woodies deserve something a little more unique, whilst still connecting the Asrai to their ancestral kin. You can see that their magic was at one time Asur but then it mutated until it suited their needs.

Also, can we get our characters hooked up with some blackbrair javelins? :lol:
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#24 Post by pk-ng »

Elithmar wrote:I still think there's a danger that different communities will use different rule sets. Consider the situation at the moment with different comp packs, with some countries favouring no comp and some using ETC etc. Without GW to provide a starting point for these comps, surely these communities are just going to diverge more?
Prince of Spires wrote:I agree that the biggest danger to WH 9th edition (and the future of WH as a fanbase-driven thing in general) is fragmentation of the rule set. Fragmentation means a smaller chance of finding a player playing the same game. Which means fewer games. Which means there is less incentive to build armies for 9th ed. Which leads to fewer opponents. And so on.

In the end, the risk here is that the player base starts dwindling and people move on to new stuff (which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course).

Rod
Disagree. There's always fragmentation (I got friends playing their customised 8th edition even before 8th died). But as Furion has put it nicely it comes down to market condition and the best one survives/win. Once ETC has selected a system the others will die out eventually as support for the other comps systems will slowly fade away. Once people are aligned to 1 comp pack it'll come down to how much support it'll get from the community and if the community can thrive from there especially with no official company support (this is assuming KoW isn't chosen).
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John Rainbow
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#25 Post by John Rainbow »

Are there any plans for progression of the 9th age ruleset - i.e. how will it grow and prevent stagnation?
teep
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#26 Post by teep »

Hey Furion,

I like what I've read so far! Since you've done the empire book now as well, my buddy and I gonna playtest
your updates, as well as others such as Warhammer CE and 9th age. Comparing your version to WCE, I like
that you've added 7th ed stuff and came up with some new things. More options, more fun - upping across
the board feels much better than nerfing :)
Still, I also feel that some of the point drops were a bit too drastic (SWs, spears), but I like the general direction
of creating many interesting options.
I've asked this already on youtube: how do your updates interact with the core rules? Do you propose using
these with ETC, COMBAT or straight up BRB rules?
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#27 Post by Furion »

No additional restrictions - just take the book and go by BRB. There will be some mechanic changes, but generally it is 98% 8th ed in mechanic. Stuff like: measure range to skirmish before contraction, make contact before contraction, contract afterwards. Or base sizes.

The most resonating changes is spears giving parry save if with shield, +2 to initiative and always +1 rand for fights.

Thank you for your time in testing.

cheers
Furion
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teep
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#28 Post by teep »

Interesting :) then let me suggest some possible inclusions from the aforementioned comp packs:

- simple line of sight
- units that are fleeing in t6 give up full vps
- half vps for units on 25% or less of their starting size
- riders and mounts yield vps seperately

And what are your thoughts regarding disruption and steadfast?
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Prince of Spires
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#29 Post by Prince of Spires »

Sounds sensible. They're not so much changes as they are clarifications of things that are unclear in the BRB or just plain silly.

Do you have any fixes for buildings in mind? They can be broken in a lot of ways in 8th and have a result that they are often only used as impassible terrain in many games I've played.

Rod
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Re: Warhammer 9th edition?!

#30 Post by Furion »

Prince of Spires wrote:Do you have any fixes for buildings in mind? They can be broken in a lot of ways in 8th and have a result that they are often only used as impassible terrain in many games I've played.
Until I get time to do this right, I will do this the easy way: buildings as impassable terrain.
There must be a way to word it taht buildings are both tactically challenging and not insanely broken at the same time, but for now I'll pass.

cheers
Furion

p.s. Dwarfs coming soon! Tonight!
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